Big posts on torture by Instapundit, Andrew Sullivan (here and here and here and here and here), and a pretty shameless piece in the Opinion Journal. Read all of them and then come back here for my 2 cents.
Ok- did you read them all? Good.
One of the recurring statements leveled by those who oppose the McCain amendment is that those supporting the McCain amendment are being fuzzy with their definitions, and calling things torture which clearly are not. For example, this piece from the previously mentioned shameless Opinion Journal article:
The critics are still conveniently vague about just what interrogation techniques they would allow. The Post frowns on “other CIA pressure methods.” Well, what are they? Sleep deprivation? Exposure to hot and cold? Stress techniques such as kneeling for a long time? Or how about good cop-bad cop interrogation of the kind practiced in the average American police precinct? That can certainly be “degrading” and “cruel” if you interpret those words in the most expansive manner.
You see! I am just one of those nancy-boy Amnesty International bleeding heart liberal types! I don’t even want the worst of the worst subjected to a room a little colder than room temperature! I get the vapors when detainees are subjected to a little bit of sleep deprivation! I should just STFU and let the manly men, including the million dollar metrosexuals at the Wall Street Journal editiorial board, make all the tough decisions.
[/snark]Of course I don’t have a little problem with a little sleep deprivation. Of course I don’t have a problem with with turning down the air conditioning a little bit. Of course I don’t have a problem with some use of stress positions. I doubt most people would. But do I have a problem with chaining someone’s arms and legs behind them, chaining them to a floor, subjecting them to freezing cold without water or food, allowing them to lie for 24-48+ hours in their own shit and urine while listening to rap music at ear-bleeding volumes until they pull their hair out.
Maybe I am not as manly a man as say, Paul Gigot or Daniel Henninger, but that constitutes torture in my book, and it sounds to me like someone else is playing fast and loose with definitions.
Or do I have a problem with ‘cold cells’ and ‘waterboarding,’ as described here:
The fourth consists of forcing a prisoner to stand, handcuffed and with shackled feet, for up to 40 hours. Then comes the “cold cell”: Detainees are held naked in a cell cooled to 50 degrees, and periodically doused with cold water. Last is “waterboarding,” a technique that’s already been widely reported. According to the information supplied to ABC: “The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner’s face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.” ABC quoted its sources as saying that CIA officers who subjected themselves to waterboarding “lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in.”
Well, yeah. I may not be as brutish and tough as John Fund or Holman W. Jenkins, Jr., or another one of those macho guys at the Opinion Journal who get their morning pedicure, head to the office in their tailored suit, write about the benefits of torture, and then head for drinks at the Russian Tea Room, but pretty much that last description seems to define torture.
Now, no- it may not leave any permanent physical scarring, and it may not lead to broken bones or organ failure, but I feel pretty comfortable calling those actions torture. And as much as I am loathe to admit it, there is a paper trail- we watched abusive techniques migrate from one prison complex to another, and it is documented.
So I would suggest that those who keep whining that us softies are simply playing fast and loose with definitions come clear on what their definition of torture is. Then they can level the arguments that my opposition to torture is just soft-headed thinking, or giving aid and comfort to terrorists, or merely there so I can feel morally superior to those who are actually doing what they have to to keep our country safe.
Because they are the ones who are really playing fast and loose, and they damn well know it. And this latest maneuver by Rumsfeld is going to blow up in his face.
*** Update ***
More here from the always worthwhile Cathy Young, who has a back and forth of sorts with Jonah Goldberg (another manly man, one presumes, and not prone to general wishy-washy liberalism and terrorist-coddling like me)
Not to sound overly melodramatic here, but I find it rather frightening that Jonah is reducing a basic principle of post-Enlightenment Western culture — the bodily inviolability of the individual as a cardinal principle — to mere aesthetic preference.
*** Update #2 ***
And this piece by Max Boot is so shockingly stupid it could have been written by John Gibson or Sean Hannity:
HOLD THE PRESSES. I’ve discovered that the use of torture by the U.S. government is far more pervasive than previously believed. There are major facilities all over the country where thousands of men and women who have not committed any crime are held for prolonged periods while subjected to physical and psychological coercion that violates every tenet of the Geneva Convention.
They are routinely made to stand for long periods in uncomfortable positions. They are made to walk for hours while wearing heavy loads on their backs. They are bullied by martinets who get in their faces and yell insults at them. They are hit and often knocked down with clubs known as pugil sticks. They are denied sleep for more than a day at a time. They are forced to inhale tear gas. They are prevented from seeing friends or family. Some are traumatized by this treatment. Others are injured. A few even die.
Should Amnesty International or the International Committee of the Red Cross want to investigate these human-rights abuses, they could visit Parris Island, S.C., Camp Pendleton, Calif., Ft. Benning, Ga., Ft. Jackson, S.C., and other bases where the Army and Marines train recruits. It’s worth keeping in mind how roughly the U.S. government treats its own defenders before we get too worked up over the treatment of captured terrorists..
Look Max, I can do it too:
HOLD THE PRESSES. I’ve discovered the use of torture by groups within the U.S. government that is far more pervasive than previously believed. There are major facilities all over the country where thousands of men and women who have not committed any crime are held for prolonged periods, forced to listen to loud music for hours on end while being made to consume large quantities of alcohol to the point that they vomit and are incapacitated.
Aren’t I clever? I made a funny. University fraternity parties are the same thing as torture, just like boot camp is torture! Now watch me go eat my own poo!
Seriously, this is the kind of deranged garbage that makes me never want to read anything else Max Boot has written, and to take back any of the times I ever agreed with him. And this is the tack- to claim that the real instances of abuse and torture are nothing, and then to pretend that when folks put forward legitimate concerns about torture (think beating people to death, cold cells, or any of the other stuff we know has occurred) is the same as wanting to ban all interrogation methods.
Again, if anyone is ‘fuzzying’ definitions, it is not me. If you think the McCain bill is too vague, fine. Show me where you draw the line. I have showed you where I stand- waterboarding is torture. Cold cells are torture. Beating people until they hemmorage internally is torture. Kneeing people in the thigh until they die is torture. Chaining people in stress positions for 24 to 48 hours in rooms where it is excessively hot, and refusing to give them food or water while forcing them to lie in their own urine and shit- that is torture. Just because they are not as bad as the end of Braveheart, or they aren’t as bad as sticking someone’s arm in a paper shredder or raping someone’s daughter does not mean they are not torture. So if you think otherwise, let me know where you stand in this troubling world of ‘vague’ definitions.