I think it is safe to say that the minimum wage is going to be an issue in 2006, as Democrats try to put forward policy positions that are more substantial than ‘Bush SUXOR’:
Despite Congressional refusal for almost a decade to raise the federal minimum wage, nearly half of the civilian labor force lives in states where the pay is higher than the rate set by the federal government.
Seventeen states and the District of Columbia have acted on their own to set minimum wages that exceed the $5.15 an hour rate set by the federal government, and this year lawmakers in dozens of the remaining states will debate raising the minimum wage. Some states that already have a higher minimum wage than the federal rate will be debating further increases and adjustments for inflation.
The last time the federal minimum wage was raised was in 1997 – when it was increased from $4.75 an hour. Since then, efforts in Congress to increase the amount have been stymied largely by Republican lawmakers and business groups who argued that a higher minimum wage would drive away jobs.
Thwarted by Congress, labor unions and community groups have increasingly focused their efforts at raising the minimum wage on the states, where the issue has received more attention than in Republican-dominated Washington, said Bill Samuel, the legislative director of the national A.F.L.-C.I.O.
Opinion polls show wide public support for an increase in the federal minimum wage, which falls far short of the income needed to place a family at the federal poverty level. Even the chairman of Wal-Mart has endorsed an increase, saying that a worker earning the minimum wage cannot afford to shop at his stores.
The article goe on to provide the arguments for and against raising the minimum wage, which was of marginal interest to me. More interestiung is that we are beginning to see the Democrats come up with policy positions, as SusanG was discussing the minimum wage as an election year tool several days ago.
ppGaz
Wow, that’s heartwarming. Next we’ll find out that Mister Potter has endorsed the increase, owing to the inabiity of minimum wage earners to afford to patronize the stores in Potterville.
Sniff. That’s so …. touching. What a great country.
demimondian
Washington is one of the states with the highest minimum wages. Ours was raised in 1998 by a citizen initiative which not only raised the base wage, but also indexed it to inflation. At a result, the minimum wage here is $7.63/hr.
I had an interesting discussion with a local retail restaurant owner last week. He can’t keep workers, even at that wage. I also found out why it is that teenagers no longer work there. The labor regulations for teenagers’ work hours have been tightened dramatically over the last few decades, making it impossible for them to work late on school nights. As a result, the traditional entry jobs, such as line cook or restaurant service, are not open to them.
capelza
Teenagers as line cooks? Here in Oregon they are generally bussers and dishwashers or other back kitchen helpers. On school nights they can not work after 9 pm. I agree about some of the labour laws regarding kids (no heavy machinery for the young ones and school SHOULD take precedence over a job), but there does seem to be line that has been crossed.
Anyone under 18 can not work as a server or a cashier because of the OLCC (our liquor control). So it wouldn’t matter anyway, though it is very odd. The kids can’t be cashiers because they would be “selling” alcohol, but as bussers they can physically handle the glasses and bottles that actually have booze in them. (And have been known to sneak in the back to imbibe, the little devils.) an odd catch-22.
That aside, teens seem to have gotten the idea that working in restaurants is below them. I worked in the restaurant business for over 10 years and saw the decline in the teen workforce. As an aside, having teens in high achool all this time, when it came time to take a foreighn language, they did not want to take Spanish becayse they viewed it as a “trash” language. So French it was, as the demand for Spanish speaking white collar jobs grows here
.
All this I see as a cultural separation of us and them…any work that the Hispanics will do is considered “scut” or beneath them. Though working for minimum wage in a video game store is still “cool”. Kids are growing up with this mentality, at least here.
The minimum wage quandry…companies will go overseas for cheap labour, yes. And Americans will continue to demand the cheap goods that this allows…all the while cutting their own throats. It is circular to me. I wonder how many people actually look to see where their goods are made before they buy them. I guess I am a protectionist.
That quote from the chairman of Wal-Mart is hysterical.
Geek, Esq.
$5.15 is a pathetically low wage. I know the textbook economics arguments against that, but textbook economics arguments depend on multiple premises that have never existed and will never exist.
Krista
There does seem to be that mentality, doesn’t there? However, when I was teen, food industry jobs were still considered to be the last resort. A lot of my contemporaries worked in those jobs, as employment was hard to come by, but it was NEVER their first choice. None of us wanted to wear a polyester uniform, experience chronic breakouts from the proximity of the deep fryer, and come home smelling like old french fries.
I wonder — you say you’ve seen a decline in the teen workforce in that industry. In an industry in which I worked for many years (customer service), I saw a bit of a trend towards replacing full-time, salaried employees with students who would work 25 hours a week for a considerably lower wage. Maybe the decline in teen workforce is due to teens now obtaining some of the jobs that formerly went to adults?
Paddy O'Shea
Speaking of important 2006 issues:
Military Times Poll
Only 54% of the military’s professional core now support Snoop Georgie George’s Iraq policy.
A pretty low number considering.
http://www.militarycity.com/polls/2005_main.php
John Cole
Paddy-
Has anyone ever mentioned how tedious your daily polls are? And for the love of everything holy, would you put them in the appropriate thread, and embed the damn link? The threadjacking gets tedious, you know.
Paddy O'Shea
A Military Times poll finds that the support of military professionals for the Commander In Chief’s Iraqi war policy is rapidly fading, and to you that is tedious? Seems rather momentous to me.
But listen, if you’re looking for excitement, post some more kitty pictures.
And honestly, given the high level of agitated lunacy exhibited in these threads you speak of, the word appropriate could hardly be considered to be, well, appropriate.
capelza
Krista…the decline here is can not be attribited to what you suggest. I guess I should have been plainer, the restaurants I was comptroller for were not fast food. I can’t speak with absolute authority about the fast food joints. But I do know that Hispanics fill the majority of jobs in restaurants here. Though now that I think about it, all the fast food joints I frequent do have white employees (mostly kids). But they have always been very low paying jobs (minimum wage) and had kids working (as my very brief stint at a McDonald’s in 1972 reminds me.)
As I said, any restaurant in Oregon that sells ANY alcohol will not have teens as servers (that’s where the money is in full-service restaurants).
One of the reasons I quit was the illegals being hired. While on paper they looked legal (phony documents from Las Vegas) and even though we knew they weren’t legal the way the INS has it set up, as long as you look at the papers and fill out the I-9 the employer is pretty much in the clear..a whole lot of winking and nodding going on in our economy). The SSA would send out a report every so often saying which SS numbers didn’t match, but that was the extent of ANY kind of governemt recognition. It really bothered me. A whole lot of the illegals I like personally very much, but I believe they are a detriment to the American workforce (as separate from the “American” economy and business). My experience is just a sampling. Go to almost any restaurant (or fish plant, etc.) and you’ll see the same thing, Whites in front, hispanics in back. Even up in Alaska (Kodiak), this is happening.
Where I do see the replacement of a full-time adult workforce is in the stores like Fred Meyers (a grade up from Target). A formerly PNW chain now owned by Kroeger, they have become notorious for hiring you at full-time, then dropping you to part-time. Lots of folks working below the level where they qualify for benefits.
I spend quite a bit of time in Canada, AB, to be exact, and I do wonder if there is a subtle difference. Kids are kids all over the world, but do you have the pressure of the illegal immigrants adding to the mix? I hadn’t noticed it there. Though I did pick up a great name for KFC. One of my friend’s daughters worked there and she called it K’fuckas…I can’t even drive by one now without laughing.
John Cole
Yes, Paddy. Tedious. Every day, you come on with another poll that we are all supposed to fawn all over. 99% of the time, the poll has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. Like here.
Even more entertaining is when you direct us to polls at MSNBC that show that 90% of respondents think Bush should be impeached. You, of course, fail to note that Atrios and Dkos have freeped the poll, but hey- you got to post an off topic poll, so your day was a success.
Krista
That must have been an Alberta thing…we call it Dirty Bird over here. :)
And you’re probably right about the immigration, but it’s hard for me to say. I doubt we have the same number of immigrants, so I don’t think there’s as much concern about Canadian jobs being lost…at least, not that I’m hearing. Any Canadian jobs that are lost (on a large scale) right now seem to be due to companies merging and centralizing their operations — that’s how I lost mine, anyway. :)
The Other Steve
Honestly, I can’t imagine how this could possibly be a serious election issue.
Another example of Democrats just not getting it, and trying to rely on 1970s crap.
T Mag
Honestly, I can’t imagine how this could possibly be a serious election issue.
Another example of Democrats just not getting it, and trying to rely on 1970s crap.
Most Americans don’t earn minimum wage and those that do already vote Democrat for the most part. How is this issue going to help them?
Sojourner
Actually, I find this very interesting. It’s the first indication I’ve seen in a long time that executives are capable of recognizing the principle of trickle up economics. Who’s going to buy the products of these corporations if American workers continue to experience declining wages? For me, it’s rather a duh observation but apparently not to most executives. Bravo to the Walmart dude for at least noticing this rather basic fact. No matter how self-serving it may be.
Cyrus
I’m no expert, but from what little I know about the subject, I mostly agree with the column Steven Landsburg wrote last year. (Shamelessly whoring for my alma mater, by the way… I never took a class with Landsburg, but a friend of mine thought he was great.)
He shows that the minimum wage is almost harmless to business despite the decades-old claims to the contrary, but he argues against it because it’s a deceptive way to redistribute wealth rather than straightforwardly taxing the entire population. (Of course, if you can’t pass the ideal poverty-fighting methods, then you might as well settle for the one that’s better than nothing…)
Not sure how I feel about it, myself. Is an increase in the minimum wage just a backdoor tax (so to speak) that winds up benefitting teenagers and college students with summer jobs more than anyone else? Of course, just because it benefits teenagers too, doesn’t mean it only benefits them – unless an increased minimum wage encourages them to seek work they wouldn’t otherwise and take it from the people who actually need it… but then, that only applies to really big hikes like what Nader advocates, it would have no effect on these increases of 50 cents or a dollar that don’t even keep up with inflation.
Economic theory and game theory show that a minimum wage is either unnecessary or harmful. But economic theory and game theory both assume rational actors, perfect information, and no goals but maximizing money or efficiency, so they’re worth just a little bit more than the paper I’m writing this on. I think there should be some kind of minimum wage, but I’m open to debate. But given that we have one, it’s pinning a “kick me” sign on the backs of the poor to not adjust it for inflation.
capelza
I lose track of whose snarking and who isn’t. :(
If you were serious, isn’t it a shame that a “tactic” from three decades ago is still a viable one? That there are folks out there who still think that a normal family can live on a minimum wage? That on said minimum wage they can afford decent housing AND pay for their own health insurance. All the while waiting for that trickle-down voodoo to kick in? Or that faith-based compassionate conservatism to work it’s wonders?
That was snark, though I admit not very good snark..
Bob In Pacifica
Other Side Steve, you whistle in the dark so much it’s surprising the lights are ever on in your house.
+++
Minimum wage, state by state, is a good, albeit small, step to bring out the majority to vote their own interests. The Democrats problem, the problem of any party that pretends to represent the working class, is to motivate them to vote for their own interests. Most of the time people are sucked in by their emotions that ultimately defeat their betterment. For example, a “war on terror” instead of a police action against the perpetrators of 9/11.
++++
It’s 2006. Have they caught Osama yet?
Sojourner
I think the poll about the military is very interesting. So the question is, where should he post it?
ppGaz
Well, then, minimum wage earners? Fuck ’em!
Right? That is what you meant, right?
I mean, the smart party would pay attention to the people with the money and the power, wouldn’t it? Those stupid Dems, pandering to ignorant minimum wage earners! Bwaaahahahahaha! Who gives a shit about them? No wonder those losers can’t win an election. They don’t understand what America is really all about.
The Other Steve
Perhaps my perception is limited to Minneapolis.
But people around here don’t make minimum wage. McDonalds and the other restaurants are hiring at $7-9/hour already. Even then they’re hiring illegal immigrants, because the student population isn’t interested in the jobs.
When I was a kid, we worked so we could afford to buy a $500 piece of shit ’77 Chevy Monte Carlo. Today, Mommy & Daddy buys their kid a brand new VW Bug to drive to school.
In the 1970s minimum wage was an issue because it touched most people. Today it does not. That’s why I say it’s hard to believe this will become a campaign issue.
The point is, we need some real solutions to problems. Not rehashed 1970s rhetoric from Ted Kennedy.
Bob In Pacifica
Cyrus, I’m not sure what you mean in the minimum wage debate here equating it to “pinning a “kick me” sign on the backs of the poor to not adjust it for inflation.”
Are you saying that the national minimum wage should be adjusted for inflation as they do in Washington State? If so, I agree. Who’s got the courage to make that argument in Congress?
=====
A creation of a national single-payer health plan would bring an immediate transfer of wealth to the poorest, and it would help industries compete in the global market. What’s good for General Motors may actually be good for America in this case.
=====
Likewise, to exempt a larger amount of income from income tax, say double the minimum amount free of income tax, would help.
The Other Steve
Obviously, the point of politics today people are more interested in what immediately effects them, then the community as a whole.
The Democrats need to change that tone. I don’t see that this issue will do that, at least not the way it is always discused.
At least Wal-Mart understands the bigger picture.
Krista
In an awful lot of cases, Mommy and Daddy can barely afford a bus pass. Rampant consumerism IS getting worse, in my opinion, but there are still an awful lot of people who can barely make ends meet. Just because they’ve been swept under the rug in our society, doesn’t mean they don’t still exist.
T Mag
It’s 2006. Have they caught Osama yet?
Better question: it’s 2006, have we been attacked in the last five years?
ppGaz
I see, and ten years without a MW increase is not a real problem?
Tax cuts for the rich, which can be bought from the middle class for a few hundred bucks a vote, no problemo, as well.
Since these issues are going to go on forever, then we are free to call any mention of them a “rehash” inasmuch as we can be sure they’ve been “hashed” before. This whole government-people thing is so TEDIOUS. Can’t we have new and interesting topics for our blogs? Why do we have to have these boring conversations about how SOME people (not me, I’m sure) think they are getting fucked over?
Yeah, that’s right, the Republican party is the INTERESTING party.
capelza
The Other Steve, I don’t know about Minneapolis, but out here, there are a LOT of people who though they make more than minimum wage, aren’t making a living wage. Our middle class IS squeezed. Health insurnace is skyrocketing, the new jobs are very low pay…and even jobs that here traditionally paid well are being undercut by imports (our shrimper driving by a seafood restaurant that is selling Candian Shrimp, a salmon troller passing the same restaurant selling farm grown Chilean Atlantic Red Salmon (whatever the fuck that is…it is wrong on so many levels). More an more people are feeling marginalised…the minimum wage is the tip of the iceberg.
How many of those people who buy their kids new VW bugs (and are there really THAT many?) go into debt to do it? I’m curious. Also, how dumb. Make the little darlings work for them.
ppGaz
Better question: It was 9/10/01. Had we been attacked in the last eight years?
YOU STUPID FUCK. Do you think that DHS color codes are making you safer?
Why do I have to share a country with morons?
Why?
capelza
Also, included in this iceberg, it must be stressed that executive wages have increased hummungofold while real wages have not. That our jobs (and our healthcare) seem to be tied to the moodswings of the stockmarket and it’s masters, the “stockholders”. God, I do sound like a commie. But seriously, doesn’t this bother people?
Krista
T Mag – oh come on, you don’t actually believe that? If a terrorist really wanted to hit the U.S. again, I’m sure they could do so. It’s pretty common knowledge that port and railway security in the U.S. is still abysmal. And what’s to stop someone from walking into the Mall of America with a bomb in their backpack? It probably makes a lot of people feel good to think that this war has prevented terrorist attacks, but I think you’re giving this administration waaaayyyy too much credit. If anything in the U.S. has prevented any terrorist attacks, it’s been intelligence. And if Bush had been smart, he would have spent all of this war money on beefing up and improving U.S. security and U.S. intelligence.
But that’s just my opinion. Feel free to respectfully disagree.
ppGaz
Thus does Mister Potter get himself nominated for the Potterville Man of the Year award.
DecidedFenceSitter
Let’s play with the troll.
Well you see, because I got this neat rock for Christmas, I haven’t been attacked by tigers, hit by a meteor, struck with lightning. Thank the heavens for the rock, for it is preventing all that. Unfortunately, because of this rock I also have not won the lottery. But that is a trade off I am willing to make.
And yes we’ve been attacked. We’ve got a couple thousand dead in Iraq that didn’t die due to old age and accidents; and several thousand injuried that didn’t slip up slicing their breakfast bagels. If that doesn’t count as an attack neither does the bombing in Beirut or the attack on the USS Cole. Or if you agree the latter two are attacks, but those that occur in Iraq are not attacks.
—
Now as far as minimum wage goes, I started working at 16 at a grocery store for 4.15 an hour. The first bump raise I actually missed. It was not until I graduated from college that I got a job which did not start at minimum wage (thus accounting for raises and such). Well wait, strike that. I did work as a floating bank teller for the summer between my freshman and sophomore years. But considering banking hours I couldn’t do that and school at the same time.
So any job that allowed me to work with my schedule was a minimum wage job.
And you know what; it was about 50/50 adults/kids. People struggling with two-three minimum wage jobs to get by, and kids who were doing it for fun money; or because they had to to get by.
Pb
Oddly enough, I mentioned the minimum wage issue the other day as an issue where the country broadly supports raising it (86% favor, 12% oppose), and only the most hardcore, heartless Bush syncophants don’t (they’re split, 46% favor / 49% oppose). All the democratic groups, as well as people who don’t vote (the average joe, it seems), and even the pro-government conservatives overwhelmingly (> 90% favor) support raising it. The rich and out of touch, and the disenchanted and cynical groups still favor it by a wide margin (> 80% favor). And the compassionate nuts on the religious right are right behind (> 79% favor).
Now that is the picture of a wedge issue; the only danger is that Bush might come out for it too (or more likely a watered-down version that somehow still manages to favor his corporate
overlordsbackers), and then the Bush syncophant vote would switch and the Democrats would lose the issue (but still chalk it up in the “win” column, more or less).But really–$5.15 an hour? No one can live on that. Not really, not these days. And definitely not with Bush’s expansive fantasies of homeownership (read: debtor’s prison). Then again, using his definitions of economic success…
Cyrus
Yes, that’s what I meant. Sorry I wasn’t clearer. I guess maybe we could imagine better ways of providing the same basic minimal standard of income, but given the system we have, it’s a mean joke to leave the minimum wage unchanged for 10 years.
Sojourner
I’ll take the small victories over nothing at all.
Krista
Something that you tend to see too often is this: daycare is bloody expensive. I’ve heard more than one person say that they could not afford to work, because they could not afford to pay for daycare. Is that a good system, when you’ve got people deliberately on welfare because if they did go to find a job, the pay would be so crappy (in relation to their expenses), that they’d LOSE money? Then you have all of these people who think that welfare is a horrible thing, and that people shouldn’t be on it. Well, fine. But make it worth peoples’ while. People have their pride, and most who are on social assistance aren’t there because they enjoy it. But if you have the choice between just getting by, or not getting by at all — well, it’s not much of a choice, is it? Raise the min. wage so that it’s a living wage, get yourselves a decent health-care system, subsidize daycare so that regular people can afford it, and you’ll have a lot more people in society who are happy, healthy and productive.
CalDevil
I think that ppGaz and others are missing the point re Lee Scott’s support for a minimum wage increase.
Since Wal-Mart pays more than minimum wage for most all of its starting jobs and well above that for more experienced positions, this is really an easy way to get some better press (Wal-Mart never gets “good” press these days) and stick it to its many competitors, mostly regional and mom & pop type operations, that actually do pay minimum wage.
Good PR and a way to squeez competitors’ margins even further. Sounds like a no brainer for a self-interested corporation that could care not a whit about the policy implications.
ppGaz
You’ve blown your cover. You’re actually a softie. I’d wager you haven’t seen that “Wal-Mart = Satan” movie, either.
I have a hard time saying nice things about a company that encourages its employees to get welfare.
ppGaz
Good point.
Sojourner
Nope. Haven’t seen it. Nor do I shop at the local Wal-Marts.
Krista
Sojourner — good for you. You’re stronger than I am. I try to resist the lure, but it’s difficult. Zellers is the only store standing between me and an utter dependency on Wal-Mart.
Gold Star for Robot Boy
This is just like the retired pro athletes bitching about their modern counterparts who don’t know the fundamentals, don’t love the game and are only in it for the money.
Every generation thinks those following are spolied.
fwiffo
I have to ask, and this is totally serious. I remember this big hullaballoo over Anthrax mail attacks. Some people died, others got sick. They were marketing products to spray on envelopes to let you see through them before you open them. They cleaned out some congressional office buildings with bleach, direct marketers were considering using transparent envelopes so people would feel safe about opening them. The Feds Richard Jeweled some biologist, but still haven’t found the real culprit…
Did I imagine all that stuff? Did that not actually occur? Cause I keep hearing people saying we haven’t been attacked since 9/11, and repeating it over and over. Am I the only goddamn person on the fucking planet who remembers this?
Oh yeah, and I guess the bombings in Bali, and London, and Jakarta, and Madrid, etc. don’t count, because although they happened to our closest allies, but not on American soil.
ppGaz
No, it’s not your imagination. I mention the anthrax attacks every so often here. I am still fascinated by the extent to which (apparently) one person with some powder and a few stamps could almost paralyze the country.
The Other Steve
Good point.
I don’t shop at Wal-Mart because it’s more expensive.
Seriously. I just priced out a 64 ounce bottle of Tide laundry detergent. It was $6.98 at Wal-Mart… $5.98 at Target. I’ve been meaning to make a whole list of the general stuff I buy and do a price comparison.
Perhaps I shall do that this week. Kitty litter, garbage bags, soap, shampoo, etc.
Jazz
I’ve conducted an extensive poll of myself and determined that no matter what they’re paying the guy at the fry machine, I still like McDonald’s cheeseburgers.
No wonder I’ve lost my girlish figure.
ATS
The real issue is CEO salaries in the US. Like that Brooks guy, who cleared $70m last year while selling crappy body armor to our troops. He threw his daughter a $10m bat mitzvah in the Rainbow Room.
In Japan CEOs get 15x the salary of workers. Germany and the UK are comparable. In the US the ration is 431x.
Say I’m waging “class warfare” if you like, but that really stinks
Krista
Wow. I knew CEOs were disgustingly overpaid…but, wow!
T Mag
Successful CEOs are what makes this economy run. Japan has a social system which makes fair compensation impossible. Hence their going on decade long recession. We have a higher standard of living because we give fair rewards to the ones who grow the economy, not to those who use strikes and poltical power to extract their pound of flesh.
scs
I think the issue with minimum wage has to do with illegal workers. Business owners don’t want a Federal minimum wage because farmers and meat packers who employ illegals will lose out and the government is sympathetic to them. Most other fast food places and retail pay a lot over m.w. by now anyway, at least as far as I know.
As for Wal-Mart, a friend of our family started working there in her senior years to keep busy and supplement her income. After about 10 years, she is now making over $15.00 an hour, hardly mw and has nothing but good things to say about how she has been treated there and the benefits she gets. The morale is good there because they aggressively promote from within. In her very older age, she even got an offer to become manager, but she refused it because she didn’t want the added work. The negative buzz on Wal-Mart has been a leftist elite conspiracy and is shameful. How many people who are criticizing WalMArt actually have to shop there or actually know anyone who ever worked there? WalMart have done more for poor people in terms of buying power and jobs in this country than any egghead university professor ever did.
T Mag
WalMart have done more for poor people in terms of buying power and jobs in this country than any egghead university professor ever did.
Well put. Walmart is creating jobs. Universities destroy jobs.
scs
Universities are the ones who don’t want to give any benefits to their janitors. Talk about leftist hypocrisy.
scs
And of course, what I meant by that is that Wal Mart operates in reality and gives real benefits, leftist theories are nice, but don’t bring home the bacon. But I’m sure you knew that, but chose instead to reply with snark. Real productive there.
T Mag
I’m not snarking, scs. Universities do destroy jobs. They put out an anti-capitalist ideology that hurts the economy. They deny janitors health cares, as you said. They are a net drain on the economy.
scs
T Mag. I’d bet a $100 you are DougJ anyway, as are about 50% of the posts on here. I recognize your writing patterns by now. If you don’t have the guts to post under your own name, don’t expect anyone take you seriously.
GTinMN
Too funny! College edumacation, it’s destroying the economy!
T Mag must be a DougJ clone.
scs
GTinMN so are you. GIVE IT UP DOUGJ! It ain’t working no more.
T Mag
Scs, I think you’re the one who is faking his arguments. You want to critique universities but then you won’t admit that they have become factories for Marxist propaganda. You’re a RINO, pure and simple.
scs
DougJ, do you stand in front of the mirror every night and try on different outfits and then tell yourself how handsome you look? I get the feeling you do. You think it’s all a joke, but I think have an unhealthy obsession with ‘self’. Get some therapy dude, before it’s too late!
T Mag
Who the hell is DougJ?
scs
Please. Nice try. I see your work on Tom Maguire’s site too. They are on to you too.
T Mag
Huh??
T Mag
Are you cheese wiz, scs?
scs
I see how you react on Tom MAguires. You always say, “Who’s DougJ?” when busted. Give it up man, it’s over!
Pb
scs,
An earnest idiot is indistinguishable from a bad troll. Of course, DougJ is neither, and you cheapen his good name to imply that he is. :)
scs
DougJ, I think it’s okay to use your alternate personas as comic relief. But when you flip over to alternate ID’s to critique people, it shows cowardice.
T Mag
You’re cheeze wiz, aren’t you?
scs
Pb, you’re on the DougJ list too. Doug, I’m going to give you a tip here on how to avoid detection – sorry, you’re going to have to start writing longer posts. Any of these posters who appear infrequently with these one or two sentences are not for real. Most people who are genuine care to support their ideas and take a good long paragraph to make a point. They are just not that interested in a one line snark attack and running. That’s how you give yourself away. If at least your fake id makes some good points, it might not mess up the thread so much.
T Mag
You’re John, aren’t you?
scs
Or a John agent.
T Mag
I think you’re his sister or girlfriend. Except we all know John is gay. The designer scotch, the love of show tunes. He’s not fooling anyone anymore.
scs
Oooh, you’re going to get banned for sure!
T Mag
I’m starting to like you, scs.
Gold Star for Robot Boy
Shorter scs: “DougJs, everywhere I look! I’m surrounded!”
Meanwhile, this seems an appropriate moment to say, no, I’m Spartacus!
scs
You wouldn’t be too bad yourself (fill in the blank name) if you didn’t let yourself get carried away things there. Take a vacay for a while, why don’t you? Or write a fiction novel – at least you’ll get paid for it, unlike here.
scs
Gold Star for Robot Boy, another case in point. Pheww, take a break man, you’re wearing out your library’s networks!
T Mag
I do take vacays, scs. And when I come back, people think someone else was me the whole time.
scs
Okay, that’s it for me today. Enough of DougJ hunting for now.
Gold Star for Robot Boy
Library?
Krista
Everybody has a little DougJ in them somewhere.
Krista
T Mag – you malevolent bastard. :)
And I’M Spartacus.
And if scs is John’s girlfriend, then he’s in deep shit. scs is quite young, from what I recall.
Paddy O'Shea
You people are all off topic. You’re supposed to be snickering about the 2006 election and the Democrat’s efforts to make the minimum wage a campaign issue.
My favorite off topic remark (outside of mine): “It’s 2006, have we been attacked in the last five years?”
I’m assuming by “we” the author of this bold remark isn’t referencing the 10s of thousands of casualties we’ve suffered in Iraq.
Just because we went over there where it would be easier to get at us doesn’t mean we haven’t been attacked.
Nearly half a decade after 9-11, the worst terrorist attack in US history, and Osama bin laden is not only still at large, but still murdering Americans. What a stunning failure on “president” Bush’s part!
Oh, and I do have a theory about pets I’d enjoy sharing here. I believe it to be an insidious plot on the part of the cute and fuzzy four-leggers to get their “owners” to tranfer their parenting instincts to them, thereby causing the victims to unwittingly remove any possible contribution on their part to the planetary gene pool.
It is my opinion that in most cases this is an act of mercy on the animals part.
Pb
Paddy O’Shea,
Osama is still dead. And he should remain dead until just before the midterm elections…
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
Typical leftist stupidity: “No one can make a living on $5.15 an hour.” So? And no one is allowed to get a second or third job? Like it’s the responsibility of an employer to make sure his employees are living well? If you lefties actually cared about helping the poor, you’d advocate getting the govt. out of business entirely. Instead, you guys want to turn America into the 21st C. economic powerhouse of Germany.
I don’t know anyone over the age of 21 who makes min. wage. Why is that? Oh, wait, I know. It’s because they have job skills that allow them to earn more.
All a min. wage is just price control on labor. Nothing more, nothing less. As if a bunch of bureaucrats can determine how much an employee should be paid by his employer.
How about if you are earning Min Wage go back to school, improve your skills and maybe you can get a better job. Oh, and no one should be getting married and/or having kids unless you can actually earn a decent living.
And I love how you Lefties hate Wal-Mart. Hmm, a company that is open to hiring those who have no discernible job skills (which benefits the poor) and a company that sells stuff dirt cheap (again, who benefits here?), and yet you’re against them? Why? For purely political reasons. Pathetic.
Paddy O'Shea
Osama dead is having more luck achieving his goals than the living George W. Bush is in reaching whatever it is he’s attempting to do.
Osama probably benefits here from having goals that are a little more clearly defined.
Paddy O'Shea
“Oh,Boy.Stupidity!” is an appropriate preface to that author’s remarks.
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
Ah, Paddy, like all the other lefty nitwits who post here, you fail to rebut the ideas, just the moniker. Okay, we’ll agree then that I’m right and you’re not.
Funny, but one of Osama’s goals was to attack the U.S. and then watch the US cut and run and not fight back. I think Bush won that one, eh?
When did Osama want the Taliban and Hussein to be overthrown? Yeah, having the US military fight Al-Q right in Al-Q’s own backyard, that Osama, what a genius. Maybe even as smart as you, eh, Paddy?
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
I think the Dems should use this as their slogan. It’s true after all: An economy as strong as Sweden’s backed by the military might of France. Vote Democrat!
Paddy O'Shea
Like I said, “Oh,Boy.Stupidity!” is really quite a fine preface to this author’s remarks.
Pb
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!,
Did you see Steven Colbert’s take on the minimum wage, on The Colbert Report? I bet you would have loved it (ditto for his other bit recently on (not) saving for retirement). That is, unless you realized that it could be satire. But what are the odds of that?
I look at your posts in the same way, by the way. You’re doing a heckuva job.
Pb
Oh,Boy.Stupidity! Says:
Um, no. Unless you think we caught Osama? Or that Osama spells his name S-A-D-D-A-M or something…
Really, man, if you’re going to troll, at least start out with a factual basis somewhere, or something that at least appears coherent.
Krista
Very well, OBS – you claim that ALL lefties prefer to address your name, and not your points? I’ll address your points as best as I can.
Even with a second job, that’s still not enough to pay most basic living expenses. As for a third job, most people don’t have time for such things, due to such obligations as raising kids, sleep and eating. You’re looking at putting an awful lot of people in the hospital due to nervous breakdown and/or exhaustion. (Of course, they can’t afford health insurance, so then declare bankruptcy…which costs the taxpayers. Go figure.)
That’s lovely that you have such faith in corporations. I personally would not trust them to pay anybody two cents an hour if they had a choice about it.
I do. And they tend to have to work a hell of a lot harder at their jobs than people who make ten times as much.
No. They’re determining the minimum that an employee can be paid. Anything above that is completely the employer’s discretion.
And they’re to pay for tuition…how? Good luck going back to school while working two or three jobs, as you suggest.
Wow…I’ll just say that that’s very unrealistic. You might as well say that people shouldn’t be getting married or having kids if they’re going to wind up getting divorced. Some things, you just cannot predict. Go find someone who had a really decent earning and got laid off because their company wanted to cut costs, and so slashed jobs instead of trimming the CEO’s multi-million dollar bonus. Believe me, they’re out there.
I don’t know from where you obtained your view of things, but you really do seem to not have a very good grasp on what life is actually like for the working poor, or for people who are just scraping by. Yes, it would be lovely if everybody could afford to go back to school and upgrade their career. That doesn’t change the fact that certain low-paying jobs will still exist. Somebody’s got to work at those jobs. How will those people pay their rent and feed themselves?
AaronWA
just curious.. but cut and run from what… as far as i know we weren’t in a war when 9/11 happened.
HH
The minimum wage is hardly an issue that will excite more voters than normal to come to the polling booth.
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
Krista:
It’s not any employer’s responsibility to make sure you can pay your bills, etc. What about friends, family, churchs, civic orgs helping you out during the tough times? By raising min wage, all you are doing is helping to ensure that low skilled workers never get a chance to enter the job market. The govt. doesn’t mandate minimum prices for goods, why should it do the same for the ‘good’ known as labor?
“I don’t know from where you obtained your view of things, but you really do seem to not have a very good grasp on what life is actually like for the working poor, or for people who are just scraping by.”
You’re kidding, right? I started working at 15 at McDonald’s making $3.75 an hour. Never been unemployed for longer than a few months at a time since then. Helped to pay for college. Went to an inexpensive state school and have been working ever since.
Do me a favor, Krista. Go to a poor part of town where you live sometimes on a Tuesday afternoon. Ask yourself why are so many people just hanging out, smoking, having a good time?
I don’t rely on corporations. Corps SUCK. But Govt. is even worse. Govt. is never accountable because it stays in business thru mandatory taxation. Corps. must turn a profit (please customers and attract workers) to stay in business. Why do you trust the Govt. to better manage the economy, better than the relationship between individual workers and their employers?
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
Funny, PB, but thoughts on min wage also echo the thoughts of economists Thomas Sowell, George Reisman, F.A. Hayek and others.
Maybe you should start studying economics and stop watching TV, huh?
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
Osama said that what the US did in Somalia (cut and run) would be standard op. procedure for the US. He said the US was a paper tiger and he didn’t count on the US striking back with such military force from the 911 attacks.
The original poster said that by invading Iraq and Afghan the US was playing into Osama’s hands. Yeah, sure we are. Sure, sure we are.
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
and by continally raising the min. wage, you are ensuring the generations of low skilled workers stay unemployed and need to rely on govt. handouts to stay alive.
the govt. also needs to imprison employers who willingly hire illegal aliens, which also causes wages to decrease and takes jobs away from poor US citizens.
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
Go find someone who had a really decent earning and got laid off because their company wanted to cut costs, and so slashed jobs instead of trimming the CEO’s multi-million dollar bonus. Believe me, they’re out there.
scs
Nice try DougJ. The longer posts are too late.
Pb
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!,
It doesn’t take an economist to figure out that the federal minimum wage is set unreasonably low. And I’m no economist, but if you have any economic arguments to make, then bring it on–mere name-dropping is no substitute.
Also, on illegal aliens–I’m in favor of deporting them, of course, but it’s interesting to note all the effects they have on the economy. One example: to get jobs, a lot of them get fake social security numbers. Therefore, they pay into the social security system, but they won’t necessarily get anything back out from it. Well, maybe they will if we later let them become citizens, but they definitely won’t if we deport them. To recap: some illegal aliens are helping to shore up our social security system right now!
capelza
Pb, medicare, too. If they come back legally they won’t get the SS or Medicare benefits, they’ll have new and valid SS #’s and so the old one will be null. I’m really curious. One of the illegals where I worked actually was using the SS # of some woman in NJ (long but true story). Will SHE get to keep the money?
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
No, too high. I’ve already made the economic argument:
1) it’s not the Fed. Govt’s place to determine the wages of anyone. That should be up to an employer and an employee. Just like abortion, not the Fed. Govt.’s job to meddle in personal affairs. Don’t like your job or your pay, don’t make it the govt.’s job to bail you out.
2) Raising the min wage causes jobs to be lost. When the price of something goes up, the consumer uses less of it. Or what often happens is that employers will let some people go or simple reduce hours worked. The idea that every company is awash with cash and that any increase in wages is no big deal is nonsense. Though I do admit that most companies are cheap bastards, but so what? You can always find a better job. Thankfully, I always do.
3) Not just those making min wage are affected by a min wage increase. Everyone else in the company will demand a raise, especially those who are already near but not at the min wage level. Do you think an employee with a little experience making 1.50 over min wage is gonna be happy that the new guy with no experience is making only .50 less an hour?
4) Since when is it govt.’s job to determine your value to the marketplace?
5) By increasing min wage, you’re just encouraging employers (especially small employers ) to hire people off the books and thus decreasing tax revenue.
6) If there’s a min wage, should there be a maximum wage?
If so, what is it? Who gets to set it? Should there be ‘wage’ controls on goods, i.e. no goods or services may be purchased for less than $1.15, etc.? That would be consistent with the min wage argument.
Re: S.S.: not a fan of S.S. I can do a much better job of investing my money than the govt.
AaronWA
I’m curious.. do you believe the government should interfere with strikes? Like the air traffic controllers, or the New York Transit workers? Because if you’re against any regulaion by government, than you have to be against any regulation of unions as well.
Barry
Another: “It’s 2006. Have they caught Osama yet?”
T Mag Says:
“Better question: it’s 2006, have we been attacked in the last five years?”
First WTC attack, 1993; second, 2001. You do the math.