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You are here: Home / Bad Form

Bad Form

by Tim F|  March 21, 20062:09 pm| 224 Comments

This post is in: Blogospheric Navel-Gazing

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Speaking of things that make no sense, I am completely baffled by the ramping up of hostility against Jeff Goldstein in leftwing blogs. The insult comic niche carved out by “Sifu Tweety,” Brad at Sadly, No! and Tbogg I can sort of understand, but lately my RSS reader has spit out bile from mainstream blogs like Duncan Black’s. Here is the first example that I noticed, followed by several more, and then today:

From Roy:

One of the benefits of making fun of people who never learn anything is that you can go away for a long while and when you come back, they’re still idiots.

In Jeff Goldstein’s case, HE went away from a long time and when he came back he was an even bigger idiot.

What’s the point? Why Goldstein? I don’t share rightwingers’ outrage over Glenn Greenwald, who references his comments so that people know what the heck he’s talking about. Read another harsh, effective post by Kevin Drum here. God knows I have beefs with Goldstein, just like I have regular beefs with Hewitt and Malkin and the rest of the rightwingophere, but this piling-on seems to serve no purpose. It funnels traffic to Jeff’s blog, it doesn’t refute anything he said and it makes the writer look like he’s acting out on some obscure grudge.

Maybe there’s some strategery that involves aggravating the partisan divide, followed by X, followed by a landslide Democratic victory in 2006. We blogospherians like to think that we have an influence over political currents that we usually don’t, so don’t take this to mean that I’m saying OMFG Dems will lose because Atrios was mean! I’m not. Dems will do fine in 2006 regardless of what we electronic op-eds choose to yammer about. But on a personal level I’d say that if you asked me to pick ten B-J commenters with whom to have a beer the partisan split would come out close to fifty-fifty. This Randian attitude that righties have become irretrievably, morally wrong insults my intelligence. I can understand how a regular diet of trolls, monkey mail and Powerline can skew your perspective but those guys represent a tiny fraction of the people out there, and that includes the people who populate the righty blogosphere. On a political level it seems to me that if we bloggers have some sort of influence then we shouldn’t spent it reinforcing the Rovian strategy of divide and divide and divide.

Lest I be hoist on my own petard (again), I understand that I’m falling into a composition trap by labeling a prominent blogger like Duncan as representing “the left” (although taking into account the basically democratic nature of blog traffic, in a sense he does). If Duncan doesn’t represent “the left” it’s only because other people in “the left” disagree with him. Count me in.

***Update***

To quell any misunderstanding, I don’t have some prudish problem with personal criticism on the ‘net. Jab away, just cite your source so that people can judge your comment against the original. Free-floating bile that comes without any reference to what the person said or did just makes you look like a dick.

***Update 2***

I have been informed that Norbizness is The Left.

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Reader Interactions

224Comments

  1. 1.

    Sirkowski

    March 21, 2006 at 2:23 pm

    Maybe that’s because Jeff Goldstein is indeed a giant douchebag and a talentless fuck.

  2. 2.

    Pooh

    March 21, 2006 at 2:31 pm

    I was going to say that part of it is that Goldstein is just not that…anything as a blogger. Not an incisive analyst, not an eloquent writer, and certainly not funny. PLus his comments are at times a replica of LGF’s Keyboard Violence Brigade. (Which is not to say that, for example, Sadly, No! is always, or ever, nice.) (And of course I think Dougie the J might have stirred that pot…)

    But then Sirkowski beat me to it, using far fewer words.

  3. 3.

    John Cole

    March 21, 2006 at 2:37 pm

    You guys are just dicks.

    No one deserves to be shit on the way Jeff is shit on (and I don’t think he deserves to be shit on at all), and in a post by Tim explaining as much, you guys rush to be the first to call Goldstein a douche bag. Classy.

    Don’t agree with Jeff? Fine. Start a blog and refute his arguments.

    Don’t think he is an inciteful writer? Fine. Don’t read him.

    But no one deserves the childish and petty crap that the assholes Tim listed have been heaping on Jeff.

  4. 4.

    Mr Furious

    March 21, 2006 at 2:45 pm

    Since I don’t know Jeff Goldstein from a hole in the ground, I just want to know who Tim wants to drink beer with…

  5. 5.

    Pooh

    March 21, 2006 at 2:46 pm

    Uhm…I don’t read him often.

    And I was searching for explanations as to why some people might react strongly. But I’m the asshole I guess. Thanks for clearing that up John.

    (BTW, I think he is an inciteful writer, just not insightful. You are often both, there’s a difference.)

  6. 6.

    Davebo

    March 21, 2006 at 2:51 pm

    No one deserves to be shit on the way Jeff is shit on

    And if they did, certainly Jeff would have already shit on them.

    Don’t agree with Jeff? Fine. Start a blog and refute his arguments.

    I’m having a hard time coming up with a valid refutation of the anti-semetic and objectively pro-terrorist leanings of the entire left in America.

    Could you give me a hint?

  7. 7.

    Steve

    March 21, 2006 at 2:55 pm

    Well, actually, I don’t often read Goldstein, except when John links to one of his “funny” posts, whereupon I dutifully click in hopes of finally catching a glimpse of the legendary Goldstein wit. To date, I have failed in my quest.

    I frankly don’t understand why Goldstein is so highly praised by conservative blogreaders. He seems consistently incoherent to me, without very much to say about anything, although he is certainly skilled at giving the impression that he has something to say.

    Anyway, this is all so very inside baseball. Yes, the lefties are mean to Goldstein, and the righties are mean to Markos. Cue the heavy sighs as we all deplore the partisanship, etc.

    I wonder if folks like Atrios aren’t simply trying to stir the pot in light of Goldstein’s penchant for flying off the handle, like an unbelievably verbose Howard Dean. One casual reference to Goldstein as a “failed academic” inspires paragraphs and paragraphs of self-justification. It’s as if Pooh authored some Al Maviva magnum opus just because someone called him “poop.” It must be hard to resist the urge to poke Goldstein with that pointy stick one more time, just to see if he rises to the occasion.

  8. 8.

    Pooh

    March 21, 2006 at 2:57 pm

    John, further

    But no one deserves the childish and petty crap that the assholes Tim listed have been heaping on Jeff.

    That may or may not be, but Tim did ask

    What’s the point? Why Goldstein?

    Pardon me for giving possible reasons. Or is this the only proper answer?

    no one deserves the childish and petty crap that the assholes Tim listed have been heaping on Jeff.

    It helps if we all have the same hymnal.

    Further, this ‘outrage’ is pretty rich coming from a guy who not two days ago declared his hatred of all protesters, and who routinely mocks a woman, who, for all her faults, had to bury her son.

    If you want to be the arbiter of civil discourse John, that’s fine, but I’d suggest moving from the glass house to the safety of your underground lair.

    And I still hope the ‘Neers lose by 20.

  9. 9.

    Davebo

    March 21, 2006 at 2:59 pm

    But you’ve gotta admit, the guy is funny.

    On FOXNews just now, Charles Krauthammer speculated that all this has to do with a Democratic hope to retake the House and Senate in order to initiate impeachment against Bush.

    If it ever comes to that—if our country ever accepts such Orwellian tactics as legitimate—then America will have died.

    I doubt he even makes the connection

  10. 10.

    John S.

    March 21, 2006 at 2:59 pm

    You guys are just dicks.

    Shorter Cole: I wish I knew how to quit you, Jeff Goldstein!

    Just kidding, John.

  11. 11.

    Vladi G

    March 21, 2006 at 3:00 pm

    No one deserves to be shit on the way Jeff is shit on

    Really? What if he threatens to hit me in the face with his cock, as he has to others?

    You reap what you sow, John. Goldstein’s a grade A shitbag, and he pretty much deserves any scorn and graphic insults he receives. I mean, you get ripped apart here from time to time, but you generally come off as a pretty nice guy (albeit with an abnormal fetish for Cindy Sheehan and George Galloway). But even when we disagree with you and get angry with you, it’s because we believe you’re reasonable and we’re truly disappointed that we disagree with you. Goldstein, on the other hand, is simply a cocksucker. And if people call him a chundermuffining cobag, well, it’s because he’s already set the bar.

    And they’re right in that he is fucking moron. He personifies the difference between educated and intelligent.

  12. 12.

    John Cole

    March 21, 2006 at 3:01 pm

    Pooh-

    Sirkowski wrote:

    Maybe that’s because Jeff Goldstein is indeed a giant douchebag and a talentless fuck.

    You then write:

    But then Sirkowski beat me to it, using far fewer words.

    Please quit claiming you were “searching for explanations as to why some people might react strongly.”

  13. 13.

    Steve

    March 21, 2006 at 3:03 pm

    Davebo, thanks for the link to one of the funnier things I have read this week.

    The first victory for the anti-war left took place shortly after 911, when war supporters on the right agreed, however reluctantly, that “dissent is the highest form of patriotism,” and that we should not question anyone’s patriotism…

    I mean, seriously, that’s DougJ stuff right there. Maybe I have located the fabled Goldstein wit after all.

  14. 14.

    John S.

    March 21, 2006 at 3:04 pm

    Davebo-

    Maybe Jeff G. gets picked on for posting non-reality based rubbish like what appears at the top of the link you posted:

    Bush breaks his silence and fires back at his political opponents. Finally.

    Because Bush has always remained silent in the face of critics and really has to be pushed to push back.

    Next thing he’ll be telling us that there really isn’t a war going on Iraq, per se.

    Oh wait, John already beat him to the punch on that one.

  15. 15.

    Davebo

    March 21, 2006 at 3:06 pm

    But then, John’s faux outrage really has nothing to do about Jeff or his detractors.

    Come on John, let it out. It’s just not healthy keeping it inside….

  16. 16.

    Steve

    March 21, 2006 at 3:07 pm

    Yeah, Pooh, would you stop

    part of it is that Goldstein is just not that…anything as a blogger.

    pretending

    Not an incisive analyst

    that your post

    not an eloquent writer

    gave any reasons

    and certainly not funny

    why people might

    PLus his comments are at times a replica of LGF’s Keyboard Violence Brigade.

    react badly to Goldstein?

    I’m sure if you had given any reasons whatsoever, John would have picked up on that, instead of just quoting your last line like it was your entire post.

  17. 17.

    srv

    March 21, 2006 at 3:09 pm

    But on a personal level I’d say that if you asked me to pick ten B-J commenters with whom to have a beer the partisan split would come out close to fifty-fifty

    And half of them would be DougJ.

  18. 18.

    Barbar

    March 21, 2006 at 3:11 pm

    As a rabid leftwinger, let me say that John Cole >>> Jeff Goldstein. Let’s keep the quotes about the unpatriotic pro-Saddam left coming, guys — too funny.

  19. 19.

    John Cole

    March 21, 2006 at 3:11 pm

    Davebo-

    I have been swamped for the past month and really have better things to do than fling shit back and forth with you, but first, I did not mention the previous aspects of his comment because they ARE actual reasons, second, they are not objective reasons, they are just personal opinions and quite subjective. Regardless, none of those ‘reasons’ listed by Pooh warrant the treatment Goldstein gets.

    In essence, Pooh ‘struggled’ to come up with some reasons for the abuse Jeff receives, came up with a few stylistic differences that are not to his personal liking, and then just gave an ‘Amen’ to the previous post calling him a douchebag.

    Enough of it already.

  20. 20.

    Pooh

    March 21, 2006 at 3:11 pm

    Sirkowski and I basically said the same thing, I just said it more moderately. I believe he lacks talent and is not a nice guy. People react strongly to this. If those two observations combine to make me a dick, I’ll live with it I suppose.

    But what the hell is your problem? Somebody said something mean, somebody else said something mean back. Hopefully everyone is a big boy and can take it. You bill your sight as “hot air and ill-informed banter”, and wonder why there is in fact a lot of hot air and ill-informed banter here.

    If it makes you feel better, I promise to post nothing but substance here for the next week if you will do the same. Together we can make a difference.

  21. 21.

    Barbar

    March 21, 2006 at 3:12 pm

    BTW, that was supposed to be a “much better than” sign, not an “inevitably turns into” sign.

  22. 22.

    Davebo

    March 21, 2006 at 3:14 pm

    John,

    It’s not about me. Has nothing to do with me.

    It’s about YOU!

    Let it out, you’ll feel a lot better afterwards!

    Remember, shiney happy thoughts!

    Unless of course you’d prefer I slap you in the face with my objectively pro-terrorist anti-semetic python of love!

  23. 23.

    Pooh

    March 21, 2006 at 3:17 pm

    Regardless, none of those reasons listed by Pooh warrant the treatment Goldstein gets.

    Saying A is the cause of B is not the same as saying B was justified by A.

    I’m broke so I robbed a liquor store. That doesn’t mean robbing the liquor store was ok.

  24. 24.

    Steve

    March 21, 2006 at 3:19 pm

    Yeah, my point was not that Pooh’s reasons are the gospel truth, more like it was pretty lame of you to leave out the part of Pooh’s post where he was “searching for explanations” and then say “ha! quit claiming you were searching for explanations.”

    I think the bottom line was drawn by whoever pointed out that the random insults flung at Jeff Goldstein in the blogosphere come nowhere close to the virulent hatred you constantly express for Cindy Sheehan and everything she stands for. You complain about a few liberal bloggers “piling on” Goldstein when you and the rest of the “Mother Sheehan” brigade have participated in the most disgusting pile-on of all.

    What is your beef with Cindy Sheehan? That she has strong opinions? That she occasionally gets into over-the-top rhetoric? That some people take offense at the concept of her being fair game for insults? Well, gee, there you have the answer to your Jeff Goldstein question, in a nutshell.

  25. 25.

    Krista

    March 21, 2006 at 3:31 pm

    What if he threatens to hit me in the face with his cock, as he has to others?

    Are you serious? Yikes. I’ve read very little of Goldstein, but that would have seriously turned me off of his site, even if he was in jest. I’m glad you keep a certain level of dignity to your site, John, even if you sometimes have to verbally beat us all over the head in order to enforce it.

  26. 26.

    Davebo

    March 21, 2006 at 3:35 pm

    Krista,

    It’s par for Goldstein’s brand of “humor”.

    “True. But I can bench 300. And on the plus side, at least I’m not a pseudo-intellectual cocklord like this smarmy tool, who, to judge by the level of humor found at his hateful leftwing pixeldump, wouldn’t know funny if it dressed up in big floppy shoes and a red nose and started fingering his superclenched squeakhole with an oversized white thumb from one of its enormous white clown gloves.”

    Hey, I can deal with the fact that the guy is a grade a prick. And I can handle him screaming at me about how anti-semetic I am to claim that invading Iraq might have been a bad idea.

    But I just can’t stand horrible writing. And the dude is definately a horrible writer.

  27. 27.

    Andrew

    March 21, 2006 at 3:37 pm

    Jeff Goldstein says:

    Today’s subject: tristero, who (let’s face it) has the intellect of a gibbon—though he clearly fancies himself the brilliant debunker of winguttery. In fact, that as an invitation to start helping themselves to things in the fridge, or slipping a finger up your dog’s asshole, etc.

    Well, sorry, but that ain’t my thang. These fucktards want to take shots at me on their own sites, they can have at it. But from now on, they can keep it there, or they can bitch about me on sites I don’t give a shit about anyway.

    What they can’t do is take pot shots at me on other sites, then slather some peanut butter on their joints and show up here hoping to help themselves to a quick hummer from my dog.

    So goodbye to tristero. And there will be others, as well. I won’t let this place turn into the cesspole Cole nurtures.

    Clearly, John Cole is a enabler for cocklords with a hankering for canine blowjobs.

  28. 28.

    Tim F.

    March 21, 2006 at 3:37 pm

    Steve,

    I wrote this post, not John. And I don’t think that Cindy Sheehan compares in any way with the subject of my post. John’s Sheehan posts always (as far as I remember) reference actual things that Sheehan has said or done and then criticize them, rather than simply going off on free-floating rants about how she sucks in general.

  29. 29.

    Jim Allen

    March 21, 2006 at 3:37 pm

    Let’s see how this works.

    There’s an accident in a coal mine in West Virginia. Dozens missing, rescue efforts are underway. John looks up from his football game and says he hopes everyone is ok, and goes back to the game. Someone points out that the Bush administration has cut funding for and enforcement of mine regulations and this is the result. John goes ballistic, accuses the left of blaming Bush for the accident and declares that all the left can do is throw cadavers.

    A major hurricane hits the Gulf Coast. Despite numerous warnings of how severe it is, thousands of people are are stranded, entire wards are flooded out, and dead bodies are floating in the Mississippi River. While local and state officials and agencies struggle (poorly) with the devestation, FEMA, the federal agency that is designed to manage emergency responses (like, say, terrorists detonating a dirty bomb in downtown Chicago) doesn’t even know where the refugees are; Michael Chertoff is told by an NPR reporter that there are people at the convention center, and he practically accuses the report of lying. Days go by with the situation worsening, while most of the highest ranking members of the Bush administration remain on vacation. People post reactions to this, expressing outrage at the way this is being handled. John Cole’s reaction? Well, we can’t hold anyone accountable, we should wait and see how this all plays out! There go those damn lefties again — they’re saying Bush caused the hurricane and caused the levees to collapse!

    The three-year anniversary arrives of a misguided war, a war that it is increasingly apparent was started based on cooked intelligence, misdirection and outright lies, and has cost the United States thousands of lives and tens of thousands of wounded soldiers, killed untold thousands of Iraqis and is costing the United States billions and billions each week it continues. Thousands of people take to the street, here and around the world, to voice their opposition to this war. John Cole’s reaction? Congratulations to the WV Mountaineers! Oh, yeah, and I hate protesters, and that Cindy Sheehan should just go away because she annoys me.

    Someone says something mean and nasty about a fellow Pajamas Media blogger. To the parapets, men! The mean nasty lefties are on the attack again! You people are vile and disgusting! I can’t contain my outrage!

    What a marvelous sense of priority John Cole has. He’s no “Bush defender”, but heaven help anyone who tries to hold the Bush Administration accountable for anything. He rails against the “assholes” for heaping “childish and petty crap” on a blogger, while he mocks a woman who lost her son in a misguided war and wants to do what she can to stop that war.

    What a tower of strength. I’m sure the boys back at PJ headquarters are proud of you, John.

  30. 30.

    Davebo

    March 21, 2006 at 3:40 pm

    Don’t let it be said that no good came from this thread.

    We now know who taught John the word “fucktard”.

  31. 31.

    norbizness

    March 21, 2006 at 3:44 pm

    Davebo: You know, Dave Coulier can get away with that, because he at least delivers that enormously, needlessly complicated line with a Bullwinkle voice.

    P.S. to Tim: I’M the Left. How many times am I going to re-announce this self-coronation on my lo-traffic site before everybody gets it? (Operating calculator) Oh shit.

  32. 32.

    Tim F.

    March 21, 2006 at 3:44 pm

    Someone says something mean and nasty about a fellow Pajamas Media blogger. To the parapets, men! The mean nasty lefties are on the attack again! You people are vile and disgusting! I can’t contain my outrage!

    Jeebus, people, I’m not John. He didn’t even notice Black’s comments and I doubt that he would have cared if he did. Coming from the rightwing he likely expects as much. As a leftwing blogger I expect better from my own “clan” than from the rightwing hordes.

  33. 33.

    Davebo

    March 21, 2006 at 3:46 pm

    Tim,

    Perhaps you should, you know, read the comments.

    Because.. well.. he obviously cares.

  34. 34.

    Pooh

    March 21, 2006 at 3:48 pm

    Tim,

    I don’t think people are reacting to the post, they are reacting to John’s reaction to the commenters. (And there is probably some hostility built up from things extrinsic to this particular comment thread. But that’s just speculation on my part.)

  35. 35.

    Steve

    March 21, 2006 at 3:48 pm

    Tim, I was responding to John’s multiple posts in the comments.

    I think your point, as restated, boils down to “it’s rude to call someone an idiot, but it’s ok to link to something they’ve said and call them an idiot.” With all due respect, it’s a mighty fine hair you’re splitting.

    One of the basic reasons to regard Goldstein with contempt is that he is a classic example of the guy who can dish it out but can’t take it. Atrios gets called an idiot and worse every day, so I’m hardly going to point to him as the root cause of the decline in our political discourse.

  36. 36.

    bennett

    March 21, 2006 at 3:51 pm

    Andrew,

    Just speaking as someone who used to read this site on a daily basis, and would comment every now and then, what Jeff says is true. The comment section here is a cess pool. Its what drove me away, and why I don’t bother to check more than a couple of times a week. I typically like to read John and Tim’s work, but only bother with the comments when I think I may be entertained by the shit-slinging matches. It is funny every now and then. PPGAZ is my favorite player. Such rightous indignation! And its funny to see folks still can’t tell the difference between John and Tim.

  37. 37.

    Jim Allen

    March 21, 2006 at 3:52 pm

    Tim:

    The first thing John posts in this thread?

    You guys are just dicks.

    No one deserves to be shit on the way Jeff is shit on (and I don’t think he deserves to be shit on at all), and in a post by Tim explaining as much, you guys rush to be the first to call Goldstein a douche bag. Classy.

    My point was that this is just another indication of what it is that gets John riled up. Start a war? Mismanage disaster relief? Gut regulation and oversight? No problem. Try to hold someone accountable, express disapproval of their actions, or be mean to one of his buddies? Whoa, now he’s pissed, and we shall all feel his wrath.

    Please.

  38. 38.

    Krista

    March 21, 2006 at 3:53 pm

    Davebo – ewww…I’m sorry, but that guy is just disgusting. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy ribald humour as much as the next girl. (Example: I think “Kneehigh Park” from the Chappelle Show was the funniest damn thing I’ve ever seen on television.) But, Jeff isn’t being funny — he’s just being crude and disgusting.

    If others think he’s funny, that’s their prerogative, but I’m just not seeing it.

  39. 39.

    Davebo

    March 21, 2006 at 3:56 pm

    Bennett is exposed to just a small small sample of Goldstein’s “humor” and comes away with an obvious conclusion.

    The comments section at Balloon Juice is a cesspool.

    Of course, we all know there’s no history of sectarian strife in the region.

  40. 40.

    OCSteve

    March 21, 2006 at 3:58 pm

    Not funny?

    Come on folks. Read through Overheard inside a Fallujah bunker and then tell me honestly that nothing there made you smile if not laugh out loud.

    I also enjoyed The Martha Stewart Chronicles and Scenes from my driveway. Tell me nothing there is funny.

    Is everything he writes funny – no. He has been writing a lot more serious posts of late, and he doesn’t hit a chord with me every time he is trying to be funny. But if you can declare straight out he is never funny then I can declare you have no sense of humor.

    No, war is not funny. But the scene of 2 ‘militants’ hunkered down as the military approaches with one spouting out typical ‘paper tiger’ crap while the other plays the fool is hilarious.

    I’m sure that sKerry references in the driveway conversations would keep you from seeing the humor there. But Martha was damned funny.

    And his analysis and writing when he is serious is damned good. Don’t blow off the guy’s talent because you disagree with his politics. Disagree is not the same thing as talent-less. Disagree is not the same as not funny.

    I don’t agree with Kevin Drum, but I think he is a good writer. I think a lot of Kos diarists have some serious writing talent, even when I don’t agree with a word of it.

    I think Tim is a very good writer here, but if the topic strays from beer the chances I will agree with him are slim. Does not change the fact that I think he is a good writer or lower my respect for his debating ability.

    Funny on the left – got nothing. Any suggestions (serious question – I don’t have anyone on the left bookmarked whom I would put in the humor category).

  41. 41.

    p.lukasiak

    March 21, 2006 at 3:59 pm

    Tim….

    if you want to know why JeffyG gets so much abuse….

    read his blog.

  42. 42.

    Tim F.

    March 21, 2006 at 3:59 pm

    I think your point, as restated, boils down to “it’s rude to call someone an idiot, but it’s ok to link to something they’ve said and call them an idiot.” With all due respect, it’s a mighty fine hair you’re splitting.

    I don’t think that it’s a fine point at all. Knocking people for what they say or write seems like a significant step removed from knocking people because they exist.

    I’m not defending Goldstein here. He gets on my nerves plenty. I’m attacking Atrios for writing a series of posts that repeatedly toss in Goldstein digs for no reason that I can fathom. They’re not even a takedown, they’re just random hostility. If he’s just provoking Jeff for the fun of seeing him fly off the handle then it gets on my nerves even more.

  43. 43.

    jg

    March 21, 2006 at 4:02 pm

    Try to hold someone accountable, express disapproval of their actions, or be mean to one of his buddies? Whoa, now he’s pissed, and we shall all feel his wrath.

    Its a natural reaction for a right winger to see left winger criticism as nothing but partisan hackery that must be stamped out. After all if there was a problem the right would investigate, right? Therefore the lefts criticism is invalid and pisses off John. Picture yourself being of a mind that the opposition is just trying to say bad things about your leader. Picture yourself not being able to hear their criticism as being constructive, its always hurtful. If they weren’t criticising maybe they could help out, all they care about is tearing down …..!

  44. 44.

    Jim Allen

    March 21, 2006 at 4:03 pm

    I’m attacking Atrios for writing a series of posts that repeatedly toss in Goldstein digs for no reason that I can fathom. They’re not even a takedown, they’re just random hostility.

    I’m attacking Cole for writing a series of posts that repeatedly toss in Sheehan digs for no reason that I can fathom. They’re not even a takedown, they’re just random hostility.

  45. 45.

    norbizness

    March 21, 2006 at 4:08 pm

    Well then, she should get on Pajamas Media to be offered the aegis of protection. Is “Atlas Shrugged” already taken?

  46. 46.

    Steve

    March 21, 2006 at 4:10 pm

    Knocking people for what they say or write seems like a significant step removed from knocking people because they exist.

    Yes, but disagreeing with someone on the merits of their position is a lot different than using every word out of their mouth as an excuse to denigrate them as a person, as John consistently does with Cindy Sheehan.

    Saying that Atrios is disgusting, vile, an idiot, whatever isn’t any more of a contribution to the discourse if you happen to follow it up with a link to something he’s said that you disagree with.

    Out here in the real world, if I say “Bush is a terrible president,” people may agree or disagree, but they don’t typically come back with “what’s your link for that?”

  47. 47.

    Pb

    March 21, 2006 at 4:14 pm

    Yeah, what’s all the fuss about Goldstein? Well, let’s try to get an idea of who this guy is.

    Getting rid of Rumsfeld would only be spun as a victory for al Qaeda and a sign that Bush has lost confidence in his war plan

    Translation: al Qaeda dictates our foreign policy, and Bush can’t afford to admit a mistake.

    Kurtz is correct about the seriousness of the nuclear threat having always been paramount—though I believe he is wrong in his assessment of the administration’s level of attention to the problem of particular rogue states and the proliferation of nuclear weapons.

    Iraq’s nonexistent nuclear threat was very serious. However, that is not to say that the administration wasn’t paying close attention to the potential nuclear threats posed by Iran or North Korea, which they did nothing to stop.

    having railed repeatedly against the anti-war propaganda efforts of the politicized anti-war crowd (as distinct from those whose opposition has been principled and not engaged in disingenuous rhetorical ploys to undermine the President) and the deleterious impact these cynical partisans are having on the effort in Iraq (not only does their poisoned rhetoric demoralize our own troops and embolden the terrorists, who believe they are winning, but it saps the will of the US electorate, which is one of the strategic goals of any terrorist campaign)

    And… protest is terrorism. Man, I can’t see why anyone wouldn’t like the guy…

  48. 48.

    ppGaz

    March 21, 2006 at 4:19 pm

    I am not kidding when I say, I don’t read Jeff Goldstien, and wouldn’t know him if I found him in my living room. I think I saw his blog once when a BJ link pointed me to it and it left no impression whatever.

    What in the world is all this about? Talk about your inside the beltway self-conscious bullshit.

    Or, maybe it’s faux bullshit.

    Perhaps we’ll never know.

  49. 49.

    Davebo

    March 21, 2006 at 4:23 pm

    OCSteve

    Funny? On occassion.

    A good writer? I haven’t seen it yet, whether joking or serious.

    The guy needs someone to stand behind him and give him a swift slap to the back of the head everytime one of his sentences passes 300 words.

    Honestly, he’s like a Thesaurus on methamphetimines.

  50. 50.

    Perry Como

    March 21, 2006 at 4:25 pm

    Tim F. Says:

    If he’s just provoking Jeff for the fun of seeing him fly off the handle then it gets on my nerves even more.

    You mean…trolling?

  51. 51.

    Al Maviva

    March 21, 2006 at 4:26 pm

    C’mon guys, let’s get right down to it. It’s okay to hate Goldstein because many (if not most) of y’all on the left believe that Goldstein, and any of the rest of us conservatives, deserve to have shite heaped upon us.

    In the alternative…

    His name is Goldstein. And it’s not abuse. It’s just the Two Minutes Hate.

  52. 52.

    bennett

    March 21, 2006 at 4:28 pm

    Davebo,

    I’ve been reading both Jeff and John for some time, a couple of years probably. I came to the conclusion that the comment section here was a cess pool quite on my own, and well before JeffG made the above comment. In fact, if you peruse the right leaning blogs you will find a consensus among many commenters that the comment section here has become ridiculous, a cess pool if you will. It’s John’s site, and I would never presume to tell him how to run it, but I do know that I personnaly enjoyed it much more before you and your like took up residence here, and as a result do not visit as much as I used to. I can if fact remember making a comment along the lines of begging John to close comments for a while so folks such as yourself would get bored and go somewhere else.

  53. 53.

    Jim Allen

    March 21, 2006 at 4:30 pm

    Funny on the left – got nothing. Any suggestions (serious question – I don’t have anyone on the left bookmarked whom I would put in the humor category).

    You can try the General. An acquired taste, certainly, but funny. And there’s SadlyNo!

    I’m sure there’s others, but those are the only ones I’ve got bookmarked at the moment.

    It’s not the whole site, obviously, but if you go to DailyKos on Tuesday through Friday, check out Bill from Portland Maine’s daily Cheers and Jeers. Here’s today’s entry.

  54. 54.

    Jim Allen

    March 21, 2006 at 4:32 pm

    Interesting. Are all my comments going to need moderation now, or is that just something that goes along with including links?

  55. 55.

    Jim Allen

    March 21, 2006 at 4:33 pm

    Ah. Links it is.

  56. 56.

    Davebo

    March 21, 2006 at 4:35 pm

    I knew someone would show up and remind us all that we really hate Jeff because he’s jewish.

    Come to think of it, Joe Leiberman is pretty unpopular in his own party these days.

    Big Al may have a point here. I’m still figuring out how to work Al Franken and Barbara Streisand into it though.

  57. 57.

    Steve

    March 21, 2006 at 4:35 pm

    A cesspool is a bunch of people you don’t agree with, I guess?

    If you want to pal around with a bunch of people you agree with, there are a million places on the Internet to do so. You hardly need to beg John to close comments, just because he doesn’t have a problem engaging with people he disagrees with.

  58. 58.

    ppGaz

    March 21, 2006 at 4:37 pm

    Cesspool is one word, Bennett.

    Cess pool? That’s the new pool over at the Cess’ house.

  59. 59.

    The Other Steve

    March 21, 2006 at 4:38 pm

    bennett wrote:

    I’ve been reading both Jeff and John for some time, a couple of years probably. I came to the conclusion that the comment section here was a cess pool quite on my own, and well before JeffG made the above comment.

    Ok, is this is the same JeffG who banned me from posting over at protein wisdom because I dared to call him a whiner for trying to explain away his frustration with the way things are going in Iraq by blaming the “Left” for not cheerleading hard enough?

    As I recall he accused me of ad hominem, and then launched into a tirade calling me an intellectual midget who could not possibly understand the complexity of his whining.

    I can if fact remember making a comment along the lines of begging John to close comments for a while so folks such as yourself would get bored and go somewhere else.

    Honestly, I say good riddance to you.

    I like to argue and have informed debate. I like to question that which needs questioned.

    Now I don’t always agree with John Cole, but I don’t care. I like this site because it offers an opportunity to argue within reasonable constraints. We go full bore at one another’s ideas, and that is GOOD.

    We’ll call John an idiot, and he calls us an idiot right back, and there’s nothing wrong with that. It’s perfectly good, it’s perfectly healthy.

    Where I got a fucking problem is blogs like protein wisdom(which if you haven’t figured it out yet is a sex innuendo), where they bash and bash and bash people all day long, and then the minute you dare to call them on their bullshit they ban you… because you are questioning the established paradigm of the echo chamber.

    If that’s the kind of blog you want, go there. There are plenty of them. DailyKos is the same fucking way and I frankly find it boring as all hell, even though I probably agree with people more there than here.

  60. 60.

    ppGaz

    March 21, 2006 at 4:39 pm

    A cesspool is a bunch of people you don’t agree with, I guess?

    Yes it is, but he said “cess pool.”

    But anyway, just ask Tall Dave, (p)Rick, Mac Buckethead, Darrell, Stormy, scs, Defense Guy, Richard Bennett, Al Maviva, and Don Surber.

    Try to imagine a comment section populated just by those folks.

    Go ahead, try to imagine it.

    Try harder.

    Seriously.

    Try.

  61. 61.

    ppGaz

    March 21, 2006 at 4:41 pm

    Honestly, would you try to imagine it?

    Do it.

    I dare you.

  62. 62.

    Pooh

    March 21, 2006 at 4:42 pm

    C’mon guys, let’s get right down to it. It’s okay to hate Goldstein because many (if not most) of y’all on the left believe that Goldstein, and any of the rest of us conservatives, deserve to have shite heaped upon us.

    Project much? Al, your sight has nothing but scorn for “Looney Left Liberals”, so who is saying whom is deserving of ridicule here? Or are you suggesting that it takes one to know one?

    When you come in here and make substantive points, I think Steve and myself (among others) are always willing to engage you on the merits of your postion, rather than leaping immediately to heaping shite.

  63. 63.

    ppGaz

    March 21, 2006 at 4:42 pm

    So, did you imagine it yet?

  64. 64.

    bennett

    March 21, 2006 at 4:46 pm

    It has nothing to do with whether I agree or not. It’s the general tone of the comments that formed my opinion and drove me away. And well shit, I mispelled a word, so I guess anything I say from here on out is automatically wrong. Oh well, I tried.

  65. 65.

    bennett

    March 21, 2006 at 4:48 pm

    PPGAZ,

    Thanks for the laughs. You really are my favorite!

  66. 66.

    The Other Steve

    March 21, 2006 at 4:49 pm

    Tim F. wrote:

    I’m not defending Goldstein here. He gets on my nerves plenty. I’m attacking Atrios for writing a series of posts that repeatedly toss in Goldstein digs for no reason that I can fathom. They’re not even a takedown, they’re just random hostility. If he’s just provoking Jeff for the fun of seeing him fly off the handle then it gets on my nerves even more.

    I can’t stand Goldstein and most certainly don’t read him regularly. He claims his site is comic, but if that is so, it is only funny to elitist snobs.

    That being said.

    The problem Goldstein faces is that it’s impossible to have a rational discussion with him, for he is not a rational being. He’s a pure partisan hack of the hackiest sort. I mean, Kevin Drum for his occasional hackiness at least has discussions where he acknowledges he doesn’t know and he’s balancing his options. Jeff will not, whatever course helps him kiss Bush ass, that’s the course he goes on.

    So how do you deal with people like that?

    Now add onto this, that Goldstein is terribly thin skinned. He taunts and insults all day long, but any time someone insults him he goes off in a tirade of spittle flying proportions.

    So to summarize:

    – You can’t reason or have a debate with Goldstein.
    – He is thin-skinned.
    – It is funny to watch him froth at the mouth.

    I think Atrios egging him on is the appropriate response.

    Now the argument that linking to him just gives him hits. This is true, and there is a point. It’s kind of like the moonbat republican commentator in our local newspaper. The only way the editors know people are reading her is because of all the letters of complaint they receive.

    On the other hand, sometimes it’s best to point out the idiocy for what it is than to just try to ignore it. Because idiocy has a tendency of gaining a strong following if you don’t respond.

    I understand your point, but I respectfully disagree. What atrios is doing is damn funny.

  67. 67.

    p.lukasiak

    March 21, 2006 at 4:53 pm

    So, did you imagine it yet?

    When I tried to do so, Free Republic sued my imagination for plagarism….

  68. 68.

    The Other Steve

    March 21, 2006 at 4:54 pm

    It has nothing to do with whether I agree or not. It’s the general tone of the comments that formed my opinion and drove me away.

    Then where do you like the comments?

    I mean goldstein is worse than this place. His is an echo chamber where he bans anybody who disagrees. John only bans if you go overboard.

  69. 69.

    ppGaz

    March 21, 2006 at 4:54 pm

    Thanks, Bennet. I am my favorite too.

  70. 70.

    p.lukasiak

    March 21, 2006 at 4:56 pm

    You spelled “Bennett” wrong

  71. 71.

    Pooh

    March 21, 2006 at 4:57 pm

    – You can’t reason or have a debate with Goldstein. – He is thin-skinned. – It is funny to watch him froth at the mouth.

    To be fair, you can often say the same thing about Atrios (or Tbogg, or Jane from FDL)

  72. 72.

    Otto Man

    March 21, 2006 at 5:00 pm

    I’m attacking Atrios for writing a series of posts that repeatedly toss in Goldstein digs for no reason that I can fathom.

    I don’t read Protein Wisdom that often — I prefer to spend my time reading funnier stuff like the obituaries — but I think the recent rise in swipes at Goldstein might stem from Goldstein’s own posts.

    You know, things like this:

    Kos, Atrios, Huffington Post…! Glenn Greenwald, opinion shaper to the STARS!

    Yawn.

  73. 73.

    ppGaz

    March 21, 2006 at 5:01 pm

    You spelled “Bennett” wrong

    I hate myself.

  74. 74.

    Otto Man

    March 21, 2006 at 5:04 pm

    Funny on the left – got nothing. Any suggestions (serious question – I don’t have anyone on the left bookmarked whom I would put in the humor category).

    Norbizness, Poor Man, Dependable Renegade, Fafblog, Jesus’ General, TBogg, Rising Hegemon, Sadly No!, etc. etc.

    Of course, if your idea of “funny” is Jeff Goldstein or “Mallard Fillmore,” then you may want to look elsewhere. Do they still publish Ziggy cartoons?

  75. 75.

    ppGaz

    March 21, 2006 at 5:04 pm

    Next week, John and Tim will declare Balloon-Juice Hell Week.

    Only Stormy, scs, Tall Dave, Darrell, Mac Buckets, Richard Bennet, Al Maviva, Don Surber, and (p)Rick will be allowed to post here.

    At the end of the week, the site will be auctioned off to raise money for Scooter Libby’s defense fund.

  76. 76.

    ppGaz

    March 21, 2006 at 5:06 pm

    Funny on the left?

    Tom Tomorrow. His material, and especially his comic strip, funniest lefty stuff on the planet.

  77. 77.

    ppGaz

    March 21, 2006 at 5:07 pm

    Tom Tomorrow archive

  78. 78.

    ppGaz

    March 21, 2006 at 5:08 pm

    See what I mean?

  79. 79.

    ppGaz

    March 21, 2006 at 5:13 pm

    Take a look at the couple in the last frame

    Do they remind you of anybody around here?

  80. 80.

    Tim F.

    March 21, 2006 at 5:15 pm

    I don’t read Protein Wisdom that often—I prefer to spend my time reading funnier stuff like the obituaries—but I think the recent rise in swipes at Goldstein might stem from Goldstein’s own posts.

    You know, things like this:

    That makes a bit more sense. It would have made more sense if he’d let readers in on the joke.

  81. 81.

    Blue Neponset

    March 21, 2006 at 5:17 pm

    I don’t think the shit heaped on Jeff Goldstein has anything to do with politics. He is a polarizing figure and some people, including me, just think he is an arrogant ass. I am sure I could be wrong about that, but that is the vibe I get from the guy.

    It would be nice if lefty bloggers didn’t take the derogatory things Goldstein, or anyone else for that matter, says personally but sometimes they do. To me, Duncan Black’s Goldstein bashing is just a case of responding in kind.

  82. 82.

    ppGaz

    March 21, 2006 at 5:18 pm

    This one is one of my very favorites

    The liberals want us to fail.

    Right, Mac?

  83. 83.

    ImJohnGalt

    March 21, 2006 at 5:27 pm

    From Protein Wisdom’s Comment Section:

    Now wait a minute – my coochie most definitely does not taste like a used fuzzy slipper. It tastes like a twice-recapped spare tire.

    And thanks for not making me breakfast.
    – Cindy Sheehan

    Ah yes, so that is what a “not a cesspool” looks like.

  84. 84.

    The Other Steve

    March 21, 2006 at 5:27 pm

    To be fair, you can often say the same thing about Atrios (or Tbogg, or Jane from FDL)

    To be even more fair, Glenn Reynolds doesn’t even offer comments. :-)

  85. 85.

    Otto Man

    March 21, 2006 at 5:29 pm

    I just did a search for “Atrios” on Goldstein’s site and came up with 112 hits. Another 26 for “Eschaton” and another 17 for “Duncan Black.”

    So, yeah, it sounds like one blogger is really obsessing over another. I’d say Goldstein’s just one more laugh-riot stalking post away from a restraining order.

  86. 86.

    ppGaz

    March 21, 2006 at 5:33 pm

    But … you guys …. lefties are “dicks.”

    John said so.

  87. 87.

    Anderson

    March 21, 2006 at 5:47 pm

    Okay, from the above quotes and a perusal of his site, I can see that Goldstein *is* a moronic wingnut. Sorry your pal is a dumbass, Cole.

    But in a world with Hugh Hewitt and LGF, I’m not sure he even makes the top 10.

  88. 88.

    Pooh

    March 21, 2006 at 5:53 pm

    To be even more fair, Glenn Reynolds doesn’t even offer comments.

    To be fairest of all, Insta barely even offers his own comments…

  89. 89.

    RSA

    March 21, 2006 at 6:05 pm

    I have no idea why prominent lefty bloggers pick on Jeff Goldstein. Seems a waste of time and attention. I just checked out his site, though: most recent post–1500 words long. Next–250 words. Next–3300 words. With quotes, of course. Is it worthwhile? Check out something Jeff quotes approvingly:

    When Joe Friday ask for “Just the facts, ma’am,” the system requires that he receive facts, even if they are misleading or inaccurate; there must be at least data. Ask an Afghan villager or an Arab where Osama might be, and you will not, as a rule, receive data.

    If you’re going to post such nonsensical material, I guess you might as well post a lot of it.

  90. 90.

    jg

    March 21, 2006 at 6:16 pm

    Ask an Afghan villager or an Arab where Osama might be, and you will not, as a rule, receive data.

    And if you ever went to Southie and asked any resident where Whitey Bulger was you wouldn’t receive data then either.

  91. 91.

    Perry Como

    March 21, 2006 at 6:22 pm

    Mr. Goldstein is just another victim of the Left Wing Smear Machine. He minds his own business, posting insightful and often humorous articles on his blog, and the Liberals feel the need to lash out at him. It’s disgusting behavior, but not unexpected from the side that has no ideas of its own.

  92. 92.

    Brian

    March 21, 2006 at 6:25 pm

    Goldstein’s a grade A shitbag, and he pretty much deserves any scorn and graphic insults he receives.

    Right on, dickshine. You reap what you sow, and reading your link, Jeff gave you exactly what you deserved.

    I come to this site because I appreciate J. Cole’s posts and his ability to see the forest for the trees. Unfortuantely, he has a demented group of Kosass-kissing, left-leaning followers who are unable to find their asses with both hands, let alone make or understand a coherent argument.

    Jeff and John (and im) are serious people who expend serious time and effort to take a stand (and take their lumps for it) in a way that is both interesting and informative. The thanks they get for it?–trite, humorless, hateful, foul, illiterate, chickenshit, petty, cliche-ridden pablum from a gang of nebbishy wallflowers who can’t get laid, let alone get a life.

    Take what excitement you can get, dude. And a good cock-slap is about as much excitement as you deserve.

  93. 93.

    Brian

    March 21, 2006 at 6:29 pm

    I can’t stand Goldstein and most certainly don’t read him regularly. He claims his site is comic, but if that is so, it is only funny to elitist snobs.

    Better to be an elitist snob than a gutter-dwelling pussy, right?

    And, RSA, what’s “incoherent” about that quote from PW? You’re revealing more about yourself than you probably want to.

  94. 94.

    Pooh

    March 21, 2006 at 6:34 pm

    Thank you for illuminating me as to the error of my ways Brian.

  95. 95.

    Blue Neposnet

    March 21, 2006 at 6:34 pm

    Better to be an elitist snob than a gutter-dwelling pussy, right?

    Are those the only choices?

  96. 96.

    Pooh

    March 21, 2006 at 6:48 pm

    To rewind a bit, did this ‘ramping up’ largely coincide with Goldstein’s propounding of what some “the Left” (aka Norbizness) calls the “Tinkerbell” meme. AFAIR, that’s the first I really saw of PW getting a lot of mention on “Angry” lefty blogs. In that way, it’s possible that Jeff became the scapegoat for a lot of the displeasure at being called “objectively pro-terror” or what have you.

  97. 97.

    Richard Bottoms

    March 21, 2006 at 6:51 pm

    What you are seeing is the left finally waking up to their having brought knives to a gunfight for the last six years.

    No one on the Right gets a pass, benefit of the doubt, or slack anymore. Not when the result is torture, thousands of dead (theirs and ours), a bankrupted country, and erosion of our civil rights.

    And let’s not forget the fag bashing and abortion insanity.

    Fuck the Right, George Bush and anyone who supports him.

    Period.

  98. 98.

    Richard 23

    March 21, 2006 at 6:53 pm

    Funny on the left? Try the Rude Pundit. Ok, a tad bit rude, too.

  99. 99.

    The Other Steve

    March 21, 2006 at 7:13 pm

    Brain wrote:

    Better to be an elitist snob than a gutter-dwelling pussy, right?

    Now some might say that Brian is not just an elitist snob but also a gutter-dwelling pussy.

    Now don’t get me wrong. I don’t really agree with those people Brian. I don’t think your an elitist snob gutter-dwelling pussy.

    i’m just saying that some people might think that.

  100. 100.

    The Other Steve

    March 21, 2006 at 7:14 pm

    What you are seeing is the left finally waking up to their having brought knives to a gunfight for the last six years.

    It certainly helps that the rightwing ideology has been completely discredited.

  101. 101.

    JimAllen

    March 21, 2006 at 7:15 pm

    Yeah, I was going to suggest The Rude One as well, but given where this thread has been, it seemed, um, inappropriate. Or maybe too appropriate.

  102. 102.

    t. jasper parnell

    March 21, 2006 at 7:15 pm

    Mr. Cole makes some vague claims about not deserving. What was it Bill Muny told Little Bill, as the latter lay upon the floor his own bloody death rapidly approaching?

    But as to deserving, take Mr. Brian’s comment about limited argumentative ability and the need for a good “cock slap,” what ever that might be. It might be meant as some kind of a meta-schtick or perhaps, it is this tendency that raises the ire of the anti-Goldsteinians. The tendency to use bizarre sexual, or what appears to be sexual, put downs while accusing others of having no sense of humour and no argumentative ability yet showing neither one’s own self.

    The unblue Mr. Blue’s rejoinder is both pithier and funnier than the meandering musing of he who wishes to cock slap the cesspool dwellers.

  103. 103.

    TallDave

    March 21, 2006 at 7:17 pm

    Heh. I love the mental picture of lefty bloggers tossing and turning at night, muttering “Goldstein!” in their sleep.

    The lefty blogs hate him for the same reason some of the righties do: he offers well-phrased, well-thought-out intellectual arguments and rebuttals, with a bit of snark and profanity thrown in for spice. The combination is deadly to weak arguments put forth by ideologues with sensitive egos, and hell hath no fury like a pwned internet ideologue.

    Meanwhile, even as the saner minds in the Democrat Party try to triangulate for a centrist agenda that might reclaim national power, as you can see from this thread a lot of the left have convinced themselves that the only reason they’re losing is they aren’t being nasty enough.

    Take those two together, and FLAME ON!! It’s a bonfire.

    Sadly for the left, they’re missing a real opportunity to redefine their core philosphy as a more rational, thoughtful brand of socialism, such as that espoused by people like Norm Geras.

  104. 104.

    BRD

    March 21, 2006 at 7:24 pm

    For what it’s worth, if the left were represented by the likes of Norm Geras, Oliver Kamm, and Paul Bernstein, I could actually vote left and do it happily. But with sorts like Durban running around with Nazi comparisons and so on, I don’t think I’m in any imminent danger of that.

  105. 105.

    Steve

    March 21, 2006 at 7:27 pm

    Nice to see you back, TD. I hope you’ll be posting more often.

  106. 106.

    Brian

    March 21, 2006 at 7:37 pm

    But as to deserving, take Mr. Brian’s comment about limited argumentative ability and the need for a good “cock slap,” what ever that might be.

    And…..

    Fuck the Right, George Bush and anyone who supports him.

    God damn, you are lazy thinkers. You either can’t follow the flow of a thread (an easy exercise on this particular thread), or you make inane assertions.

    Are you lefties capable of cooking up anything other than empty calories?

    Put away your knives, bring out your guns, and carry home your dead.

  107. 107.

    stickler

    March 21, 2006 at 7:39 pm

    The lefty blogs hate him for the same reason some of the righties do: he offers well-phrased, well-thought-out intellectual arguments and rebuttals, with a bit of snark and profanity thrown in for spice.

    I have never seen any of this at Protein Wisdom. Perhaps you mean a different site?

    Or perhaps you don’t actually know what the terms “well-phrased” and “well-thought-out” actually mean. Hint: 3,000-word screeds which conclude by threatening a “dick-slap” are neither “well-phrased” nor “well-thought-out.”

  108. 108.

    t. jasper parnell

    March 21, 2006 at 7:41 pm

    Brian,
    What?

  109. 109.

    Pooh

    March 21, 2006 at 7:44 pm

    Brian, pretend we’re three (oh, you already are, carry on) and please rephrase your point. I’m sure it made sense in your head, but it lost something in the translation.

    Or, we can play the non-sequitor blockquoting game, which will surely advance the discussion.

  110. 110.

    Krista

    March 21, 2006 at 7:54 pm

    Hint: 3,000-word screeds which conclude by threatening a “dick-slap” are neither “well-phrased” nor “well-thought-out.”

    Thank you, stickler. Excellently put. I like the free-for-all slugfests that we have in here, and also enjoy some of the more ribald humour. But from what I’ve gathered here, it seems more like Goldstein is a misogynistic frat boy with a bad case of verbal diarrhea. I’m sure that there are many people who find his comments to be the peak of hilarity and wit. I just wouldn’t want to meet any of them in a dark bar.

  111. 111.

    The Other Steve

    March 21, 2006 at 8:08 pm

    The lefty blogs hate him for the same reason some of the righties do: he offers well-phrased, well-thought-out intellectual arguments and rebuttals, with a bit of snark and profanity thrown in for spice.

    We’re talking Tawanda Goldstein right?

    Because your description sounds more like William F. Buckley, Jr.

    hey, what ever happened to Paul Deignan anyway? He stopped blogging shortly after he sued Bitchphd. Think maybe he took his massive settlement and moved to the Bahamas?

  112. 112.

    Ancient Purple

    March 21, 2006 at 8:12 pm

    Jeff and John (and im) are serious people who expend serious time and effort to take a stand (and take their lumps for it) in a way that is both interesting and informative.

    The only thing Jeff is serious about is being a misogynist.

    The thanks they get for it?—trite, humorless, hateful, foul, illiterate, chickenshit, petty, cliche-ridden pablum from a gang of nebbishy wallflowers who can’t get laid, let alone get a life.

    Right. Because you have divination powers that let you peek into the private lives of everyone who posts to this board. Hyperbole is one thing. Your mindless prattle is quite another.

    Take what excitement you can get, dude. And a good cock-slap is about as much excitement as you deserve.

    Ah, the wonderful words of the “moral” side of the aisle.

  113. 113.

    t. jasper parnell

    March 21, 2006 at 8:18 pm

    Yes poor Paul and perfidious Professor Wally, Mr. Goldstein was going to use his might bloggoriffic voice, he is Wotan hear him roar, to destroy the Liberal worm Prof Wally. What did happen? Is there an update Tim F and/or Mr. Cole?

  114. 114.

    The Other Steve

    March 21, 2006 at 8:18 pm

    In other news, how do you like this quote?

    “The incumbent president has opponents as well as supporters of his policies,” he said. “Every person has the right to express their opinion, but it would have been more reasonable to do that on the voting day than in the square,” he told Interfax on Tuesday.

    “The developments in Oktyabrskaya Square are merely fading ashes of the fire that our Western ill-wishers hoped to fan,” Lozovik said.

    “A portion of the electorate supported opposition candidates on election day, which was a civilized way of stating their point of view,” he said.

    That came from Interfax.

    Does anyt of this sound like people we know?

    Anyway, three cheers to the Belarus protestors! Maybe freedom is in it’s last throes, but we’re going to go out fighting!

  115. 115.

    The Other Steve

    March 21, 2006 at 8:19 pm

    Aww, crap… didn’t close the tag. :-(

  116. 116.

    DougJ

    March 21, 2006 at 8:27 pm

    No one deserves to be shit on the way Jeff is shit on (and I don’t think he deserves to be shit on at all),

    You can ban me if you like, but you are a fucking moron sometimes.

  117. 117.

    Mac Buckets

    March 21, 2006 at 8:31 pm

    I’m a little late to the thread, and I haven’t read the comments up to here, but I’m going to make a bold prediction:

    Those on the right will say that Jeff is brilliantly hilarious, unassailably logical, and delightfully gonzo. They will say the left hates him because they can never hope to defeat his arguments — he’s too good.

    Those on the left will say he’s a idiotic, unfunny, crass racist/homophobe/misogynist who uses too many long sentences. They will say the right loves him because they are all idiots, too.

    Just a wild guess. You’d get the same responses basically in reverse for Bill Maher or Keith Olbermann. That’s just how it works these days.

  118. 118.

    Brian

    March 21, 2006 at 8:36 pm

    The only thing Jeff is serious about is being a misogynist.

    You’re a profoundly unserious and ignorant individual. And a shining example of the wit and intellectual depth among your commenting counterparts, such as Pooh.

  119. 119.

    Krista

    March 21, 2006 at 8:37 pm

    Mac –

    Those on the left will say he’s a idiotic, unfunny, crass racist/homophobe/misogynist who uses too many long sentences. They will say the right loves him because they are all idiots, too.

    You had it partly right. Personally, if people want to like him, that’s their taste, and I would never call someone an idiot because they don’t have the same taste as I do. But from everything I’ve read of him, and from the small sample I’ve seen when going over there, he’s definitely not my cup of tea, thank you very much.

  120. 120.

    t. jasper parnell

    March 21, 2006 at 8:38 pm

    Mr. Buckets,
    I think Goldstein is unfunny and I think Maher is unfunny. I am far from sold on Mr. Olbermann (largely — I suspect — because I have seen him but rarely). Where do I fit on your schema?

    It is, in other words, possible to criticize the dolts and dunderheads because they are dolts and dunderheads.

  121. 121.

    Pooh

    March 21, 2006 at 8:39 pm

    Mac,

    Sadly, Yes.

  122. 122.

    t. jasper parnell

    March 21, 2006 at 8:40 pm

    Brian,
    I await still the or even an explanation of your post in which you block quoted, as all the cool kids say, me.

  123. 123.

    Pooh

    March 21, 2006 at 8:41 pm

    Brian, I give you credit for spelling my handle correctly.

  124. 124.

    DougJ

    March 21, 2006 at 8:44 pm

    All right, what I just said was stupid and uncalled for.

    But Goldstein deserves all the shit he takes and more. I can’t stand stupid people who fancy themselves intellectuals.

  125. 125.

    ImJohnGalt

    March 21, 2006 at 8:45 pm

    Poop.

  126. 126.

    DougJ

    March 21, 2006 at 8:46 pm

    Those on the left will say he’s a idiotic, unfunny, crass racist/homophobe/misogynist who uses too many long sentences. They will say the right loves him because they are all idiots, too.

    I didn’t know he was crass or racist/homophobic/misognynist. I hate him because he’s idiotic and unfunny. And yet, the right loves him because they are mostly idiots. I suspect you don’t love him, Mac, because you’re not an idiot.

  127. 127.

    Steve

    March 21, 2006 at 8:47 pm

    I think Mac basically called it right. While DougJ went over the top, I think he had a fair point, as well. Goldstein is hardly a martyr for the ages just because a few left-wing bloggers occasionally call him an idiot. Far worse is said in the blogosphere every day and barely merits a mention. Why, Glenn Reynolds is still accusing anti-war protestors of treason to this day.

  128. 128.

    Pooh

    March 21, 2006 at 8:50 pm

    IJM, that made me smile.

  129. 129.

    Krista

    March 21, 2006 at 8:50 pm

    Honestly, I think it’s a given that if you have a blog, you’ll get called an untalented idiot at some point. It’s almost like a rite of passage.

  130. 130.

    Marc

    March 21, 2006 at 8:50 pm

    Why do people think Goldstein’s a douche? Maybe it’s because of posts like this:

    bored with calling Bush a liar and spinning tales of Halliburton perfidy and greed, one brave progressive takes on a new target

    brave progressive: “Yes, but how can you prove it’s Monday? And don’t go citing western calendars, either—because those are “evidence” of nothing more than how widespread the western hegemonic meme of dividing the week into 7 days has become. And besides, calendars don’t prove that, from the very first, some proto-fascist didn’t put ‘Monday’ on, say, Wednesday, just to cement his authority and control over the PEOPLE!”

    There’s no link there, the “brave progressive” is a product of his own mind. Yet another example of people on the far right unable to do battle with what progressives are really saying that they just have to make shit up to mock them.

    Bra-vo.

  131. 131.

    t. jasper parnell

    March 21, 2006 at 8:53 pm

    DougJ,
    I suspect, or in any event hope that, you are misusing “hate,” which is a very strong emotion. Objections to Mr. Goldstein do not require hatred anymore than opposition to the policies of this or any administration hinge on or arise from hatred. It is possible to find fault with utterances because they are loutish and uncalled for and policies because they do not produce the outcomes that they intend or because the outcomes they indtend are not desirable.

  132. 132.

    ImJohnGalt

    March 21, 2006 at 8:54 pm

    I didn’t know until Goldstein told me that the Julian Calendar is a western hegemonic meme. I guess I’ll have to mark the next WTO meetings on my Gregorian calendar now.

  133. 133.

    Otto Man

    March 21, 2006 at 8:57 pm

    I can’t stand stupid people who fancy themselves intellectuals.

    But he studied under some writer at the University of Denver! He’s definitely an intellectual!

    And look at how he uses the words “hegemonic” and “meme”! If he weren’t really smart, why would he need to keep dropping all those fancy words?

  134. 134.

    DougJ

    March 21, 2006 at 9:05 pm

    Well, there are people out there who love Jeff Goldstein.

    http://scrutator.net/?p=118

    (Suddenly, I can’t embed my links here for some reason).

  135. 135.

    Mac Buckets

    March 21, 2006 at 9:18 pm

    I suspect you don’t love him, Mac, because you’re not an idiot.

    Alas, my heart has only room enough for one blogger, and it belongs to another…Why doesn’t Disenfranchised Voter return my posts anymore??????

  136. 136.

    DougJ

    March 21, 2006 at 9:20 pm

    Does TDV have a blog?

  137. 137.

    Mac Buckets

    March 21, 2006 at 9:29 pm

    Yet another example of people on the far right unable to do battle with what progressives are really saying that they just have to make shit up to mock them.

    We call the reverse of that phenomenon “Ted Rall-ing” (and I’ll accept that that’s just his rhetorical style and refrain from generalizing that he’s proof that “liberals can’t do battle with conservatives, etc.”) At least Goldstein does it for free, and doesn’t portray our soldiers whom he’s never met as sexual deviants.

  138. 138.

    Mac Buckets

    March 21, 2006 at 9:32 pm

    Does TDV have a blog?

    Only the hottest, sexiest blog in the history of intertronics!

    In related news, I believe his hit-counter has now reached triple digits! Like 80 of them are from me, but still…

  139. 139.

    Pooh

    March 21, 2006 at 9:34 pm

    Mac, I agree again, the far left is not that much different than the far right in this regard (though I don’t think you can argue that the far left has anything close to the influence on policy at present)

    During the height of lefty-PC wasn’t “anti-semite” a preferred weapon as well?

  140. 140.

    Otto Man

    March 21, 2006 at 9:34 pm

    We call the reverse of that phenomenon “Ted Rall-ing”

    Well, I think Ted Rall’s a royal douchebag, so if you want to lump Goldstein in with him, you’ll get no argument from me.

  141. 141.

    DougJ

    March 21, 2006 at 9:40 pm

    I’m not saying Goldstein is a bad guy, just an idiot.

  142. 142.

    BumperStickerist

    March 21, 2006 at 9:44 pm

    Otto –

    I know there’s a distinction between ‘data’ and information, maybe you don’t.

    If you’d bothered to look at those many many hits you found over at PW, you’d see that the ‘Atrios’ hits include comments made by Atrios/Duncan in Jeff’s comment section.

    Let me repeat that for you:

    Comments made by Atrios.
    In Jeff’s Comment section

    But seeing is believing, so here you go, from ProteinWisdom Comment Section, circa Sept. ’02, it’s the earliest Atrios hit on the PW site search:

    O

    Oh, the life of those on the left. Between our stoned hackey-sack sessions, endless nights going to Phish cover bands, and of course our almost daily Noam Chomsky bible study sessions, how could we possibly have time to read the insightful prose of John Derbyshire containing his latest meditations on the history of oral sex and the moral justifications for the destruction of the Clinton genetic line.

    I know it is heretical to say here in Blogistan, where every reference to African-American incarceration rates in the New York Times or arch of Dan Rather’s eyebrow is thought to be evidence of Marxist media control, but I submit that for casual perusers of radio, television, and print (or online) media, whether of left or right persuasion, are given far more exposure to syndicated right wing columnists than left wing.

    Just check out the op-ed pages of most local newspapers, from which most True Americans outside the decadent elite get their daily dose of news.

    Posted by Atrios | permalink

    followed a few posts later by witty banter between the two:

    Hey, I thought you’d appreciate the attempt at humor. I was being an equal opportunity offender – self-deprecation for free.

    sheesh, touchy around here.

    This serious part of the post was the last bit. Aside from political junkes on both sides, who digest the spectrum, casual newsreaders get a lot of exposure to right wing opinion analysis.

    Posted by Atrios | permalink
    on 05/11 at 11:56 PM

    Sorry for the double post, but…

    As for liberal bias in the straight news, there was a time when I thought a reasonable case could be made for that. But, I think things have changed a lot in the past 15 years, and especially in the past 5.

    Hey, Bill Kristol agrees with me.

    Posted by Atrios | permalink
    on 05/12 at 12:01 AM

    Not touchy at all, Atrios. I appreciated the sense of humor, believe it or not. Just firing back, is all.

    Cause why the hell not?

    Posted by Jeff G | permalink
    on 05/12 at 12:10 AM

    haha, okay maybe it’s us libs with no sense of humor.

    In any case, I’m sure within Jameson’s impenetrable prose there exists some meaning but after falling asleep on page 3 the book accidentally got lost under my bed.

    Posted by Atrios | permalink
    on 05/12 at 01:03 AM

    It was a kinder, gentler blogistan back then.

  143. 143.

    Ancient Purple

    March 21, 2006 at 9:59 pm

    You’re a profoundly unserious and ignorant individual.

    I am very serious. The only reason you called me ignorant is because I am not a Goldstein lackey.

    And a shining example of the wit and intellectual depth among your commenting counterparts, such as Pooh.

    As opposed to the brain trust over at Protein Wisdom? Or is that the brian trust over at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue?

  144. 144.

    Mac Buckets

    March 21, 2006 at 10:01 pm

    if you want to lump Goldstein in with him, you’ll get no argument from me.

    For the reasons of degree that I mentioned, no one who merely shares an aspect of his rheotrical style should ever — ever — be “lumped in” with the moronic, cowardly, dishonest Sack of Pure Hate Ted Rall. Yes, he is Emperor-for-Life of the Douchebags. Even more confounding, who are his audience, anyway? Every lefty I’ve ever heard talk about Rall has said something like, “Oh, I hate him, too. Total moron.”

  145. 145.

    Mac Buckets

    March 21, 2006 at 10:10 pm

    I think Goldstein is unfunny and I think Maher is unfunny. I am far from sold on Mr. Olbermann (largely—I suspect—because I have seen him but rarely). Where do I fit on your schema?

    Well, some people like Carrot Top. I think referring to my pithy little post (which I’m almost sure you found not amusing in the least) as a “schema” may be flattering my intent a bit.

    It is, in other words, possible to criticize the dolts and dunderheads because they are dolts and dunderheads.

    I personally wouldn’t regard someone as a doltish dunderhead just because my own personal synapses didn’t find them funny. I mean, look at Larry the Cable Guy.

  146. 146.

    ppGaz

    March 21, 2006 at 10:10 pm

    Every lefty I’ve ever heard talk about Rall has said something like, “Oh, I hate him, too. Total moron.”

    I’ve only ever read one Rallism, pointed to by a BJ thread some time ago. My recollection is that it was pretty obnoxious. So it’s the rare “I agree with Mac” post from me.

  147. 147.

    ppGaz

    March 21, 2006 at 10:12 pm

    know there’s a distinction between ‘data’ and information, maybe you don’t.

    Theodore Roszak.

  148. 148.

    ppGaz

    March 21, 2006 at 10:15 pm

    “As a result of the collapse of the Dubai Ports deal, President Bush is turning our port security back over to the folks who have always looked after it: Nobody.”

    Bill Maher.

  149. 149.

    t. jasper parnell

    March 21, 2006 at 10:27 pm

    Who knows or cares if Mr. Goldstein is a bad guy or a good guy and what difference does that make in terms of what he has to say? Someone or another. allegedly Mohammed, once claimed that if something is true it is true no matter who said it.

    A post upthread made the point that it is a mistake dismiss arguments, often unheard ones, because the utterer allegedly occupied some other and consequently inferior ideological position; surely this is the problem. HOnestly, it is as if Popper never wrote a word the way people carry on about matters irrelevant.

  150. 150.

    slickdpdx

    March 21, 2006 at 10:31 pm

    I do think people are often unnecessarily rude in comments sections. I like to read the points people make, whether I agree with them or not, especially when they are well written and cite supporting information. That’s the foremost reason I’ll check out comments (aside from making one myself). Unfortunately, Jeff’s blog is not the only blog where people are rude.
    Of course people from all points of view are rude, that should go without saying, but we’re talking about Jeff right now.

  151. 151.

    t. jasper parnell

    March 21, 2006 at 10:34 pm

    Sorry, but there are people who find Carrot top funny? This I refuse to believe.

  152. 152.

    Perry Como

    March 21, 2006 at 10:34 pm

    Mac Buckets Says:

    Even more confounding, who are his audience, anyway?

    Ted Rall is the _The DaVinci Code_ of the internets. I’m still trying to figure out why people like Chris Muir.

  153. 153.

    Jane Finch

    March 21, 2006 at 10:40 pm

    Oh for heaven’s sake…this is so grade nine.

    Jeff G. deserves (and desires) every reaction he gets. SS, as they’d say at pogo games, that you’re his buddy, but really.

  154. 154.

    Pooh

    March 21, 2006 at 10:45 pm

    Jane,

    I’ll agree with John to extent that “deserves” might not be the right word, but he certainly has reason to expect it.

  155. 155.

    t. jasper parnell

    March 21, 2006 at 10:53 pm

    Synapses to one side, I thought your point was that support or its lack for Mr. Goldstein resulted from ideological commitment. Your larger point was if some other someone was inserted in the Mr. Goldstein role, the arguments would be reversed. Not because of humour content or quotient but because of ideology. My point was that it is possible to judge the content of an utterance based on its validity not on ideological commentment. So pithy perhaps you were, but I did not think humor was the point.

  156. 156.

    Tim F.

    March 21, 2006 at 10:56 pm

    Yes, he is Emperor-for-Life of the Douchebags.

    Agreed, Ted Rall is a douche. I hate the way that he draws devil ears and pointy teeth and unhinged eyes on people we’re not supposed to like, which is an artistic gimmick so sophomoric that it’s really hard to believe that he earned syndication. Every time he draws a soldier (representing, of course, soldiers) as a fascistic baby-killing goon I cringe.

  157. 157.

    DougJ

    March 21, 2006 at 10:58 pm

    I would hate Goldstein even more if I agreed with him.

  158. 158.

    Otto Man

    March 21, 2006 at 11:24 pm

    If you’d bothered to look at those many many hits you found over at PW, you’d see that the ‘Atrios’ hits include comments made by Atrios/Duncan in Jeff’s comment section.

    Fine, I take the correction. But I’d rather pull all my teeth out with a pliers than read 120 posts at that site.

  159. 159.

    Fred

    March 21, 2006 at 11:37 pm

    It’s simply the concept of the wolves thining the weak from the herd.

  160. 160.

    Richard Bottoms

    March 21, 2006 at 11:41 pm

    Every time he draws a soldier (representing, of course, soldiers) as a fascistic baby-killing goon I cringe.

    Yes, it’s true. Any inference that our soldiers would EVER massacre innocent men, women, and children is over the top and harmful propaganda. I don’t know where Ted comes up with such things.

    BAGHDAD — After a roadside bomb killed a U.S. Marine in western Iraq, American troops went into nearby houses and shot dead 15 members of two families, including a 3-year-old-girl, residents told the Associated Press yesterday.

    The military says about 12 Marines are under investigation for possible war crimes by the Naval Criminal Investigative Service following the Nov. 19 insurgent attack in Haditha, 140 miles northwest of Baghdad.

    http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-5/1142921619314760.xml&coll=1

  161. 161.

    Steve

    March 21, 2006 at 11:49 pm

    Yeah, atrocities definitely take place, and there’s no excuse for them (even though John Kerry is a traitor for talking about it!), but making that your generic image of an American soldier is pretty unreasonable.

  162. 162.

    Richard Bottoms

    March 21, 2006 at 11:57 pm

    Yeah, atrocities definitely take place, and there’s no excuse for them (even though John Kerry is a traitor for talking about it!), but making that your generic image of an American soldier is pretty unreasonable.

    And if we hadn’t killed 30,000+ Iraqi’s, crippled 17,000 soliders, and ended the life of 2300 brave men and women I might agree with you that it’s over the top.

    But, he is in his way trying to stop a war and atrocities along with it. So mabye being suble might not be how he thinks he should go.

    Twenty years from now when young people asked what did we do while the CIA was freezing innocent men to death on cold stone floors at Bhagram airbase, and black ops types were torturing prisoners almost unchecked, at least Ted will be able to say he raised his voice to stop it.

    I am tired of worrying about the hurt feelings of people when they are show the truth. The images from Iraq that we see are sanitzed and disturbing.

    The rest of the world see the babies heads crushed by our bombs and the dead caught in the cross fire of a war George Bush chose to start.

    I am a former soldeir and I honor the sacrifices made everyday for this stupid president and his thick headed cohorts.

    If Ted Rall shocks you into doing something about the continued carnage then it’s worth it. And if it just plain shocks you, well tough titty.

    This war belongs to John and anyone else who voted twice for the incompetent liars running the show. If Ted upsets them, well that’s just too damn bad.

  163. 163.

    Steve

    March 22, 2006 at 12:06 am

    There’s nothing “shocking” about a cartoon, it’s just a cheap shot. The Abu Ghraib photos are shocking; that doesn’t mean drawing the exact same thing has any power to persuade Americans whatsoever.

  164. 164.

    Richard Bottoms

    March 22, 2006 at 12:17 am

    There’s nothing “shocking” about a cartoon, it’s just a cheap shot. The Abu Ghraib photos are shocking; that doesn’t mean drawing the exact same thing has any power to persuade Americans whatsoever.

    Easy to say when the 1,000 pound bomb that crashes through the ceiling isn’t likely yo be aimed at your house.

    As for this incident, people are dead. Our guys brutally killed them. Something I would have doubted could ever be possible again after My Lai’s lesson.

    If you had told be three years ago that American troops were capable of torturing men to death I wouldn’t have believed it. I would have though Ted Rall to be taking cheap shots too. But now that illusion is gone.

    Just because you newspapaers and televison shows refuse to show the crushed boys and mangled girls doesn’t mean they don’t exisit. If you showed Ted’s cartoons to their relavies I’ll wager they will think they aren’t blood thirsty enough.

    It’s just like the war on drugs and the battle field was where I used to live. No doubt, drugs were harmful and the police had a job to do to controll it.

    But back then it was my house they might raid by mistake. It was my friends roughed up and locked away on trumpted up charges in some cases.

    And it was me being told that every war has its casualties and I shouldn’t view ALL police as bad just because of a few bad apples.

  165. 165.

    Beej

    March 22, 2006 at 12:43 am

    John and Tim,
    Haven’t you figured out yet that most of the posters on this site, at least the ones for this topic, are absolutely tone deaf? They go on and on about how the righties can’t take it when someone disagrees with them, and the righties then call those who disagree with them rude and clueless. But if ever those adjectives applied to anyone, it’s the people who are writing them here. Disagree with them and boy are you rude and clueless!! Not only that, but you HATE Cindy Sheehan for NO REASON. May I suggest that if those folks dislike this blog so much, they may want to go the hell away? May I also suggest that they read a few posts from last summer when Sheehan and Co. were camped outside Bush’s ranch and launching press releases about that horrible, terrorist state of Isreal?

    Goldstein, whose writing, incidentally, is a big step up from most of the posters here, but with whom I disagree most of the time, has at least one thing right. The comments here do resemble a cesspool at times. Good luck draining the swamp.

  166. 166.

    Steve

    March 22, 2006 at 1:00 am

    Thanks for the lesson on civil dialogue, friend.

  167. 167.

    Pooh

    March 22, 2006 at 1:05 am

    As far as diatribes go, that one was pretty civil, actually Steve

    -signed, just another swamprat.

  168. 168.

    Mac Buckets

    March 22, 2006 at 1:23 am

    And if we hadn’t killed 30,000+ Iraqi’s, crippled 17,000 soliders, and ended the life of 2300 brave men and women I might agree with you that it’s over the top.

    Well, I guess we found the Ted Rall audience.

  169. 169.

    Steve

    March 22, 2006 at 1:24 am

    As far as diatribes go, that one was pretty civil, actually Steve

    Well, in relative terms, maybe so. If I didn’t get called an enemy of America, I guess that constitutes a day of healing by today’s standards.

  170. 170.

    Mac Buckets

    March 22, 2006 at 1:26 am

    I am tired of worrying about the hurt feelings of people when they are show the truth.

    Still waiting for Rall to show the truth. Unless all soldiers really are sexual deviants.

  171. 171.

    ImJohnGalt

    March 22, 2006 at 1:36 am

    Dude, didn’t you watch M*A*S*H? Dude totally wears a dress!

  172. 172.

    tb

    March 22, 2006 at 1:41 am

    I’ve been commenting at Goldstein’s site for the last week or so and my God, what a depressing experience that is.Literally like conversing with the bastard spawn-on-crack of Mac, Darrell and Stormy. That’s the most disgusting thing about the whole right wing noise machine, I’ve decided- it furnishes these people with these junk-food rhetorical tricks for walling themselves off from any kind of true reasoned discussion. It’s fucking perverted.

  173. 173.

    Pooh

    March 22, 2006 at 2:02 am

    Goldstein responds to critics. Not convincingly for my money, and certainly not briefly (plus he still insists on using “objectively” where he means “subjectively” or “arguably”). But he is civil and cogent, YMMV.

  174. 174.

    ImJohnGalt

    March 22, 2006 at 2:13 am

    I’m not sure I like being called arguably pro-terrorist, either.

  175. 175.

    The Kakistocrat

    March 22, 2006 at 2:14 am

    Why does Jeff Goldstein suck? An example from yesterday:

    “If I could presume to add to Ben’s opening salvo, I’d note that, though it is evident from the left-liberals who comment here that they believe “conservatives” (which they often use as an all-purpose term) are a monolithic group of Jesus-worshipping gun humpers who place greed and piety before the good of the poor and oppressed, so-called “Red Staters” are in fact a far more diverse group, ranging from the hard-core social conservatives to classical liberals to the type of libertarians who, though they wish to nothing more than to legalize heroin and read the dirty parts of Ayn Rand novels, nevertheless wish to do so in a sovereign nation—and so support a strong military and a robust foreign policy that doesn’t wait on permission from the Chinese or the Russians or the French to act.”

    That’s a 136:1 word-to-period ratio. That’s why he sucks.

  176. 176.

    hilzoy

    March 22, 2006 at 2:44 am

    Pooh: he was cogent, more or less, on ObWi. But check out his comment on his own site:

    “Which puts me in mind of a joke:

    Q: Why did hilzoy cross the road?

    A: To piss on the chicken. BECAUSE ATRIOS COMMANDED IT!”

  177. 177.

    Perry Como

    March 22, 2006 at 3:04 am

    hilzoy, you are taking that out of context. Goldstein is one of the bloggers that defines the bleeding edge of right wing wit. This thread alone will stoke the fires of his creative genius so he can skewer liberals for decades.

  178. 178.

    Jeff G

    March 22, 2006 at 3:09 am

    Gee. Sure hope my joke didn’t hit a nerve, hilzoy.

    There’s really not much for me to say here other than I think a few people are criticizing a caricature of me (and my posts) moreso than the posts themselves.

    Which, I suppose, is to be expected when it comes to blog commenting. Of course, the problem could be that I’m not expressing myself clearly enough, but I do try to be careful — which makes the charge that I am always blaming “the Left” en masse for things so ridiculous to me. But be that as it may.

    I can deal with being called and idiot, because the people calling me idiots don’t impress me at all that much with their own intellectual prowess. So no big deal. But Tim (whom I annoy) is right: if you have a beef with what I write, address that.

    I have several threads going on my site right now where the comments are in the 100s, 200s, 400s — and yet a few people here suggest I run an echo chamber. Again, this confuses me, but then my confusion is evidently a character flaw and to be expected.

    But what IS interesting is watching one girl here who earlier professed to having never read me before now acting as if she is fully familiar with my posts, and is an expert on my entire horrific output.

    For the record, the “cockslapping” comment I left at Catch.com was in response to a guy who kept showing up on my site and calling me a chickenhawk and a coward. I told him if he’d like to get together, I’d happily beat him like a little bitch and slap him with my cock. Over the top? Sure. But to me, the chickenhawk smear is one of the most disingenuous ad hominems you can level at someone — so I was just giving back in kind.

    But I never appended it to a 3000 word screed (as one commenter suggested, and then the girl who had never before read me practically seconded!)

    I do dish it out sometimes, but seldom to other bloggers (with the exception of Oliver Willis, who just rubs me the wrong way). My exchanges with Glenn Greenwald, for instance, were always, until very recently, quite civil. When I write posts on feminism, I invite several feminist bloggers to join in the discussion.

    And yet somehow, someone here called me a misogynist — which I can assure you would come as a surprise to my wife, one of whose majors was Women’s Studies.

    Anyway, just thought I’d pop in and offer a few observations. I’ll let you get back to your assaults on me, my intellect, my character, my sense of humor, my self-awareness, my education, etc.

    ENJOY!

  179. 179.

    Steve

    March 22, 2006 at 3:20 am

    I think Messrs. Goldstein and Maviva should co-author a blog.

  180. 180.

    nyrev

    March 22, 2006 at 3:24 am

    After all of the complaining about Jeff’s excess verbage, I can’t help but be amused by his posting a comment that is only 14 words shorter than Tim’s original post.

    And people say he’s not funny….

  181. 181.

    The Other Steve

    March 22, 2006 at 4:04 am

    There’s really not much for me to say here other than I think a few people are criticizing a caricature of me (and my posts) moreso than the posts themselves.

    You obviously haven’t read your own posts, my dear boy.

  182. 182.

    t. jasper parnell

    March 22, 2006 at 8:14 am

    A quick point, the fact that Mr. Goldstein’s post garner 300-400 or, for that matter 10,000, comments does in no way invalidate the notion that his site is an echo chamber. If the posts are either attaboys or turgid rebuffs of critical commentators echo chamber it is. The same is true of Mr. Greenwald’s comments. Recently, he wrote on the necessity of repudiating pundits who were in error and, well you can to and read it for yourself. This kind of sloppy reasoning is an addition reason, perhaps, why so many find Mr. Goldstein’s site objectionable (arguable, subjectively, or objectively depending on one’s confidence in taste and reason)sloppy thinking allied with agressive rhetoric is a recipe for irritation.

  183. 183.

    Krista

    March 22, 2006 at 8:45 am

    For the record, the “cockslapping” comment I left at Catch.com was in response to a guy who kept showing up on my site and calling me a chickenhawk and a coward. I told him if he’d like to get together, I’d happily beat him like a little bitch and slap him with my cock. Over the top? Sure. But to me, the chickenhawk smear is one of the most disingenuous ad hominems you can level at someone—so I was just giving back in kind.

    But I never appended it to a 3000 word screed (as one commenter suggested, and then the girl who had never before read me practically seconded!)

    Actually, Jeff. That was me. And I have been to your site on more than one occasion. I just don’t frequent it often, because it’s not really my taste. You say that a lot of your more offensive posts are caricatures…just a “character” that you create, and so people shouldn’t be offended. The problem is, is that there appear to be many people in your comments section who take what you say seriously, and think that your more misogynistic “jokes” are the epitome of humour.

    I’m of the opinion that this “caricature” is a little closer to life than you’ll ever admit, and you just use the “character” idea as an excuse to say disgusting things, while still remaining in your wife’s good graces. I didn’t buy the excuse from Eminem, when he said it was just a “character” that was threatening to rape his wife and kill his mother. I’m not buying it from you.

    And frankly, I don’t know why my opinion matters so much to you anyway. I’m just a commenter over at another blog, who, when presented with some examples of your alleged wit, thought them to be juvenile, misogynistic, and offensive.

    But who cares? I’m a veritable nobody on the blogosphere. So you can go back to your site, with your lengthy posts, and your 200+ commenters per post, and forget that some random Canadian chick thinks that you wouldn’t know true wit if it leaped up and slapped you with its cock.

  184. 184.

    Steve

    March 22, 2006 at 9:02 am

    I’m surprised Krista acknowledges that true wit would even have a cock.

  185. 185.

    ppGaz

    March 22, 2006 at 9:08 am

    This thread has truly petered out.

  186. 186.

    Kevin K.

    March 22, 2006 at 9:23 am

    For the record, the “cockslapping” comment I left at Catch.com was in response to a guy who kept showing up on my site and calling me a chickenhawk and a coward. I told him if he’d like to get together, I’d happily beat him like a little bitch and slap him with my cock. Over the top? Sure. But to me, the chickenhawk smear is one of the most disingenuous ad hominems you can level at someone—so I was just giving back in kind.

    Goldstein, that’s absolute bullshit. I’ve never commented once on your fucking site. Not once. And I don’t recall ever referring to you as a “coward” anywhere (please show me where I did that). And the only reference I’ve made referring to you as a “chickenhawk” was in that post on my site.

    I laughed off your physical threat from Colorado (I’ve been a bouncer at a few bars in NYC — I’m really good at it) and it’s funny how it’s become a become a bit of ol’ blog folklore, but I won’t tolerate you making up bullshit.

    And your comment here is 100% bullshit.

  187. 187.

    Krista

    March 22, 2006 at 9:23 am

    LOL – you guys are awful! Don’t ever change…

  188. 188.

    RSA

    March 22, 2006 at 9:59 am

    And, RSA, what’s “incoherent” about that quote from PW? You’re revealing more about yourself than you probably want to.

    Perhaps more of the quote will help:

    When Joe Friday ask for “Just the facts, ma’am,” the system requires that he receive facts, even if they are misleading or inaccurate; there must be at least data. Ask an Afghan villager or an Arab where Osama might be, and you will not, as a rule, receive data. Those ill-disposed toward us will lie as a matter of course, even those who are neutral will see it as improving their status if they mislead us into failing,

    Someone who distinguishes facts from data, writes about “inaccurate facts” (which most people would instead describe as “not facts”), and further distinguishes lies from “inaccurate facts”, not to mention lies from data, should probably go back on his meds. Am I revealing anything about myself? I certainly hope so.

  189. 189.

    DDT

    March 22, 2006 at 10:26 am

    “Don’t agree with Jeff? Fine. Start a blog and refute his arguments.”

    What rule is there that nobody can call out his bullshit on his own turf?

  190. 190.

    Otto Man

    March 22, 2006 at 10:27 am

    That’s a 136:1 word-to-period ratio. That’s why he sucks.

    It’s funny that when John Kerry talks like that, he’s a rambling, hesitating, overly cautious elitist snob. But when Jeff Goldstein talks like that, he’s a lucid and compelling man of the people.

  191. 191.

    Anderson

    March 22, 2006 at 10:29 am

    Hm, Goldstein thinks that Hilzoy is some sort of mindless follower of Atrios? He *is* stupid.

  192. 192.

    tb

    March 22, 2006 at 10:57 am

    That’s a 136:1 word-to-period ratio. That’s why he sucks.

    Wait, I thought he sucked because his alleged humor is about as funny as a blood fart:

    “Which puts me in mind of a joke:

    Q: Why did hilzoy cross the road?

    A: To piss on the chicken. BECAUSE ATRIOS COMMANDED IT!”

    I guess there’s no commandment saying you can’t suck for more than one reason.

  193. 193.

    Nelson Muntz

    March 22, 2006 at 11:07 am

    Ha Ha! (this blog is teh blackhol of teh sux!)

  194. 194.

    ppGaz

    March 22, 2006 at 11:31 am

    BIRDZILLA has apparently escaped from the aviary.

  195. 195.

    Jack Roy

    March 22, 2006 at 11:35 am

    Goldstein is still peddling this crap that war opponents are stuck in a pre-9/11 mindset and about a dozen other talking points of equal vapidity. He’s touchy, responds to counter-arguments (by which I mean commenters pointing out the intellectual emptiness of his supposed syllogisms) with frighteningly emotional accusations of treason or something like it, and never misses an opportunity to lecture liberals about what their true motives are (note: they’re invariably a hope that the terrorists win). You wonder why people treat him like a dick? Because he is a dick. I think he’s interesting and occasionally try to have a back-and-forth (I don’t try very hard), but the guy’s unselfconscious hyperbole ends any conversation before it starts. Why do people heap shit on him? I don’t think that’s a question entirely about the heapers.

    Tim F: I think some of the stuff slung at Jeff is inappropriate (the failed-academic househusband stuff, i.e., but he puts me in a cravat and a French accent, so I don’t think he gets his feelings hurt by ad hominems), but I have no idea what it is that gets you about the recent criticism. Certainly Atrios just dropping “Jeff Goldstein is dumb” isn’t a terribly respectable argument, but it’s hardly one that invites condemnation. Which are the particularly bad strains of comments about Jeff that get you so riled up?

  196. 196.

    Blue Neponset

    March 22, 2006 at 12:49 pm

    Hi Jeff. You wanted us to quote you when we criticized you, so here goes….

    Gee. Sure hope my joke didn’t hit a nerve, hilzoy.

    The comment above is a good example of why I think you are an arrogant ass. As a joke your “why did Hilzoy cross the road” riddle just plain sucks and you didn’t even have the balls to write it on ObiWi. What you did do was write a thoughtful response to Hilzoy on ObiWi and then slinked over to your blog and wrote a shitty, ridiculing joke about her. In my experience that kind of two-faced behavior is very common among arrogant asses.

    I hope you understand my reasoning and conclusion. If not, please feel free to ask questions. All the best.

  197. 197.

    Mac Buckets

    March 22, 2006 at 1:00 pm

    Let’s see how The Word Of The Mac from yesterday is holding up:

    Those on the right will say that Jeff is brilliantly hilarious, unassailably logical, and delightfully gonzo. They will say the left hates him because they can never hope to defeat his arguments—he’s too good.

    Those on the left will say he’s a idiotic, unfunny, crass racist/homophobe/misogynist who uses too many long sentences. They will say the right loves him because they are all idiots, too.

    Just a wild guess.

    Check, check, check, check, check, check, and check. How do I do it? Am I from the future?

    You know, you’d think that it would be fun to be right all the time, but trust me, it’s more of a burden than you might realize.

  198. 198.

    ppGaz

    March 22, 2006 at 1:43 pm

    Am I from the future?

    Funny. Seriously.

    Except you conveniently ignored the material that didn’t fit your prefab version of reality. Just like you do in real life.

    I said, I know nothing of Jeff Goldenstein and care even less about him, one way or the other.

    I am not one who thinks that the world revolves around large-egoed bloggers. Or college professors who want to work out new classroom material on unsuspecting victims on the Internet. Or whatever.

    It’s all just theater, and JG is just another face in the chorus.

  199. 199.

    stickler

    March 22, 2006 at 2:55 pm

    Or college professors who want to work out new classroom material on unsuspecting victims on the Internet.

    Hey, Mr. Gaz, don’t get personal there. If I didn’t work things out on the Internets, my yellowed lecture notes would never get updated.

    Oh, you were probably talking about our gracious host.

    Sorry.

  200. 200.

    Bushtit

    March 22, 2006 at 3:13 pm

    Can’t find a lefty blogsite that’s funny?

    Here’s one: “Top 10 Conservative Idiots”

    http://journals.democraticunderground.com/top10/237

    Bwa-ha-ha-ha

  201. 201.

    slickdpdx

    March 22, 2006 at 3:24 pm

    Who’s whiny now?

  202. 202.

    ppGaz

    March 22, 2006 at 3:27 pm

    Who’s whiny now?

    Connie Francis song?

    No, wait ….

  203. 203.

    ppGaz

    March 22, 2006 at 3:32 pm

    Oh, you were probably talking about our gracious host.

    Nah. Why would geeky talk about the true nature of propaganda lead me to think that?

    I really don’t want to live in a world run by propagandists, you see. Persuasion is fine, but propaganda is just manipulation.

  204. 204.

    Pooh

    March 22, 2006 at 3:36 pm

    Mac, while you were correct, I think you’ll admit that it wasn’t exactly a Nostradamus-like feat of prestidigitation (sorry, always wanted to use that word in a sentance). I mean, I predicted that all 4 #1 seeds would advance to the second round of the NCAA…and lo!

    I predict that left leaning critics will tend to like [V for Vendetta/Syrianna/Good Night and Good Luck/Brokeback Mountain/Snakes on a Plane] while right leaning critics will tend to say that they’re destroying the minds of our children…

  205. 205.

    Mac Buckets

    March 22, 2006 at 4:00 pm

    I mean, I predicted that all 4 #1 seeds would advance to the second round of the NCAA…and lo!

    Are you Chris Angel…MINDFREAK?

  206. 206.

    Perry Como

    March 22, 2006 at 4:07 pm

    Snakes on a Plane

    Everyone will like Snakes on a Plane, no matter the politcal stripe. How can you not? It’s snakes! On a plane!

  207. 207.

    Davebo

    March 22, 2006 at 4:14 pm

    Well, Jeff’s name is circulating all over the internets today and likely driving traffic to his site.

    Amazing as it may seem, Goldstein’s little stroll into la la land may be the only thing keeping Pajamas afloat!

  208. 208.

    jg

    March 22, 2006 at 5:22 pm

    It’s all just theater, and JG is just another face in the chorus.

    Leave me out of this or I’l start calling you ‘Gaz’ too.

    Everyone will like Snakes on a Plane, no matter the politcal stripe. How can you not? It’s snakes! On a plane!

    You sound like the new limey Geico lizard. LOL

  209. 209.

    ImJohnGalt

    March 22, 2006 at 5:53 pm

    Oh Pooh…I’m so sorry.

    I think you’ll admit that it wasn’t exactly a Nostradamus-like feat of prestidigitation (sorry, always wanted to use that word in a sentance).

    Nostradamus might have attempted feats of clairvoyance, or chiromancy, but prestidigitation really only applies to slight-of-hand or legerdemain. The only reason I know this is that I used to like magic when I was a tyke. I feel so bad that you’ve waited so long to use that word, and then used it incorrectly.

    But, Grammarian’s rules, and all that.

  210. 210.

    ImJohnGalt

    March 22, 2006 at 5:56 pm

    Of course, I was being too cute by half. Chiromancy is palm-reading, and certainly, Nostradamus never engaged in that at anything other than a few frat parties as a way to pull chicks. Feats of prophecy, perhaps?

  211. 211.

    Krista

    March 22, 2006 at 6:09 pm

    ImJohnGalt – Well, I suppose it was good to know.

    Poor Pooh, though…

  212. 212.

    ImJohnGalt

    March 22, 2006 at 6:11 pm

    [snicker] Well, at least I spelled his name right.

  213. 213.

    Kimmitt

    March 22, 2006 at 6:20 pm

    Jeff and John (and im) are serious people

    Hey, now. John actually is serious people, and you’re devaluing the term with your juxtaposition there.

  214. 214.

    Krista

    March 22, 2006 at 6:21 pm

    Poop!

    There. I had to say it.

    No offense, Pooh…you know I love you to bits.

  215. 215.

    Krista

    March 22, 2006 at 6:28 pm

    He’s going to get revenge…I can feel it.

  216. 216.

    Capriccio

    March 22, 2006 at 6:49 pm

    All the sex with dogs stuff aside, can an experienced imbiber of protein wisdom please explain what the hell he means with this sentence:

    “And yet somehow, someone here called me a misogynist—which I can assure you would come as a surprise to my wife, one of whose majors was Women’s Studies.”

    Does he have more than one wife?
    Did his wife have more than one major?
    Does the fact that one of his wives may have majored in women’s studies prove that he’s not a mysogynist?
    Wouldn’t it then follow that just being married to a wife proves you’re not a mysoginist?
    And if you’re married to more than one wife, you’re damned near a feminazi, no?

    My wife majored in piano pedagogy, does this mean I can call myself a penis?

    God Almighty, I gotta get me some of this protein wisdom.

  217. 217.

    jg

    March 22, 2006 at 7:16 pm

    If you marry a woman who majored in race relations does that automatically exclude you from being called a racist?

  218. 218.

    Pooh

    March 22, 2006 at 7:56 pm

    IJG, I never said I wanted to correctly use the word in a sentance, just that it fit grammatically, my work here is done save my need to inflict great vengance and furious anger on those who *cough*Krista*cough* attempt to poison and destroy my name. Blame Canada!

  219. 219.

    Anderson

    March 22, 2006 at 7:58 pm

    If you marry a woman who majored in race relations does that automatically exclude you from being called a racist?

    Isn’t the field of “race relations” properly “racism” for short? So your wife is then a racist … professionally speaking.

  220. 220.

    JimAllen

    March 22, 2006 at 7:58 pm

    My wife majored in piano pedagogy, does this mean I can call myself a penis?

    I believe the preferred term here is “dick”.

  221. 221.

    capriccio

    March 22, 2006 at 9:37 pm

    No, JIm, that pun would only work if I’d said something like, My wife is a fellow at the Hoover Institute. Or, My wife is an undersecretary in the Bush Adminstration. Or, my wife is a blogger for Pajamas Media.

  222. 222.

    carpeicthus

    March 23, 2006 at 10:25 am

    Wow. Overheard in a Fallujah bunker is where funny goes to die. Apparently that’s the best link? Scary. I agree there’s no need to pile on; this guy’s of no consequence. Why assert that he’s an idiot when it’s so easy to prove it?

Comments are closed.

Trackbacks

  1. Scrutator » the funniest man on the internet says:
    March 21, 2006 at 8:49 pm

    […] Update: John Cole weighs in…in praise of Goldstein as well. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, I guess. […]

  2. Sadly, No! » Wingnut All-Star: Jeff Goldstein (Part I) says:
    June 14, 2006 at 2:11 pm

    […] Despite all the evidence above, Goldstein often puts up the civility front. He affects the stance that he – so brave, so manly, so decent – and his side are the victims of the incivility of the Left. No, really. And some people are stupid enough to buy it. Pasty says: Atrios doesn’t have “readers” so much as he does run a clubhouse for lefty cranks who fancy themselves intellectual attack dogs. […]

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