Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Stamping your little feets and demanding that they see how important you are? Not working anymore.

The gop couldn’t organize an orgy in a whorehouse with a fist full of 50s.

Black Jesus loves a paper trail.

I see no possible difficulties whatsoever with this fool-proof plan.

Thanks to your bullshit, we are now under siege.

Let me eat cake. The rest of you could stand to lose some weight, frankly.

It’s a new day. Light all those Biden polls of young people on fire and throw away the ashes.

Never forget that he train is barreling down on Trump, even as he dances on the tracks.

If you thought you’d already seen people saying the stupidest things possible on the internet, prepare yourselves.

New McCarthy, same old McCarthyism.

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

There are some who say that there are too many strawmen arguments on this blog.

🎶 Those boots were made for mockin’ 🎵

Conservatism: there are people the law protects but does not bind and others who the law binds but does not protect.

We are builders in a constant struggle with destroyers. let’s win this.

“woke” is the new caravan.

When your entire life is steeped in white supremacy, equality feels like discrimination.

The Giant Orange Man Baby is having a bad day.

When I decide to be condescending, you won’t have to dream up a fantasy about it.

Wow, you are pre-disappointed. How surprising.

We still have time to mess this up!

Ah, the different things are different argument.

I like you, you’re my kind of trouble.

He imagines himself as The Big Bad, Who Is Universally Feared… instead of The Big Jagoff, Who Is Universally Mocked.

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179Comments

  3. 3.

    Pb

    World War III, baby!

    Al-Qaeda Calls for Holy War Against Israel
    Just in time, really–now we have to go after Al-Qaeda too! What was it that Bill Kristol said the other day…

    And indeed, this is a great opportunity. I think our weakness, unfortunately, invited this aggression, but this aggression is a great opportunity to begin resuming the offensive against the terrorist groups. Israel is fighting four of our five enemies in the Middle East, in a sense. Iran, Syria, sponsors of terror; Hezbollah and Hamas. Al Qaeda doesn’t seem to be involved. We have to take care of them in Iraq. This is an opportunity to begin to reverse the unfortunate direction of the last six to nine months and get the terrorists and the jihadists back on the defensive.

    Good news, Bill, al-Qaeda go the memo–it’s five out of five now, baby! Yeah, it’s time for the US to get mired in another long, unpopular, expensive, and unwinnable war against the unwitting civilian populace of a peaceful Arab sovereign nationcowardly terrorists hiding amidst civilians! We’ll be re-spreading Democracy in Lebanon!

  4. 4.

    Perry Como

    Republicans seek protection from Republican backed law:

    An obscure law approved by a Republican-controlled Congress a decade ago has made the Bush administration nervous that officials and troops involved in handling detainee matters might be accused of committing war crimes, and prosecuted at some point in U.S. courts.

    Senior officials have responded by drafting legislation that would grant U.S. personnel involved in the terrorism fight new protections against prosecution for past violations of the War Crimes Act of 1996. That law criminalizes violations of the Geneva Conventions governing conduct in war and threatens the death penalty if U.S.-held detainees die in custody from abusive treatment.

    In light of a recent Supreme Court ruling that the international Conventions apply to the treatment of detainees in the terrorism fight, Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales has spoken privately with Republican lawmakers about the need for such “protections,” according to someone who heard his remarks last week.

  5. 5.

    Krista

    An interesting article addressing the claim that Hezbollah hides amongst civilians. Turns out, they don’t.

    Evidently, they don’t trust the civilians at all, thinking that they’ll spy on them and report their activities and actions to their enemies. So they avoid them, which is supposedly what makes them so adept at stealth attacks.

  6. 6.

    Pb

    Krista Says:

    An interesting article addressing the claim that Hezbollah hides amongst civilians. Turns out, they don’t.

    Go figure. Don’t hold your breath waiting for an apology around here, though, Krista.

  7. 7.

    Jim Allen

    Tim F., when are you going to get your own blog? Let us know where and when, and what your PayPal account is. Count me in as a supporter.

  8. 8.

    Pb

    Senior officials have responded by drafting legislation that would grant U.S. personnel involved in the terrorism fight new protections against prosecution for past violations of the War Crimes Act of 1996. That law criminalizes violations of the Geneva Conventions governing conduct in war and threatens the death penalty if U.S.-held detainees die in custody from abusive treatment.

    I’d love to hear Scarborough’s opinion on that one… He didn’t vote on it, by the way, but it did pass the House, 391-32, with *two* Republicans voting ‘Nay’…

  9. 9.

    Par R

    Looking to Mitch Prothero’s reporting on Israeli matters for balanced coverage would be like looking to Joseph Goebbels for balanced coverage of the Holocaust.

  10. 10.

    Ross

    Here’s a terrific Cobert interview with Eleanor Holmes Norton.

    Hilarious interview! Last night I flew from Boston to Seattle via Jetblue, and saw this episode on the in-seat TVs. I was laughing so hard, and it really helped pass the time.

  11. 11.

    Steve

    Par R Says:

    Looking to Mitch Prothero’s reporting on Israeli matters for balanced coverage would be like looking to Joseph Goebbels for balanced coverage of the Holocaust.

    Par, once again, demonstrates that he has no class and no originality:

    You don’t go see Joseph Goebbels’ films to see the truth about Nazi Germany. You don’t go see Al Gore’s films to see the truth about global warming.

    I can completely understand why someone like Par would read that outrageous statement and be like “that’s awesome, I need to use that one sometime!”

  12. 12.

    Slide.

    Neocon predictions:

    “The larger question with respect to Iraq, as with Afghanistan, is what happens after the combat is concluded. […] And, as in Kabul but also as in the Kurdish and Shi’ite regions of Iraq in 1991, American and alliance forces will be welcomed in Baghdad as liberators. Indeed, reconstructing Iraq may prove to be a less difficult task than the challenge of building a viable state in Afghanistan.

    “The political, strategic and moral rewards would also be even greater. A friendly, free, and oil-producing Iraq would leave Iran isolated and Syria cowed; the Palestinians more willing to negotiate seriously with Israel; and Saudi Arabia with less leverage over policymakers here and in Europe. Removing Saddam Hussein and his henchmen from power presents a genuine opportunity — one President Bush sees clearly — to transform the political landscape of the Middle East.” [Testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, 2/2/02]

    lets NEVER forget what these naive morons said.

  13. 13.

    Slide.

    Oh, I neglected to say the above quote was from Bill Kristol. You want more of his brilliant predictions? Sure:

    # “The United States committed itself to defeating terror around the world. We committed ourselves to reshaping the Middle East, so the region would no longer be a hotbed of terrorism, extremism, anti-Americanism, and weapons of mass destruction. The first two battles of this new era are now over. The battles of Afghanistan and Iraq have been won decisively and honorably. But these are only two battles. We are only at the end of the beginning in the war on terror and terrorist states.” [4/28/03 column]
    # “There’s been a certain amount of pop sociology in America … that the Shia can’t get along with the Sunni and the Shia in Iraq just want to establish some kind of Islamic fundamentalist regime. There’s almost no evidence of that at all. Iraq’s always been very secular.” [National Public Radio, 4/1/03]

    Never forget.

  14. 14.

    Slide.

    Oh.. and then there is the very brillian Fred Barnes:

    “But these terrorists are hitting soft targets. I mean, the U.N., the hotel, the Red Cross — these are relatively soft targets. And I think they have a bad strategy. What do they gain from killing a lot of Red Cross personnel and a lot of U.N. personnel? I don’t think they warm the hearts of Iraqis. They certainly don’t build up more support in Europe or the United States. It is a last-ditch — I think it is a desperate effort by these terrorists. It’s not representative of a significant guerrilla force that’s fighting the United States there.” [Fox News’ Special Report with Brit Hume 10/27/03]

    Never forget what these scumbags said when you here them talking now about Iran and Hezbolla. Never forget

  15. 15.

    Slide.

    More Fred Barnes? Sure:

    “I think he [Rep. John P. Murtha (D-PA)] is just plain wrong in some of the things he said. And I certainly disagree with some of the others. But here is what he is wrong about, Brit. You raised one of them. And that is, he says the war is intensifying. It’s not intensifying.” [Fox News’ Special Report with Brit Hume, 11/17/05]

    Do these asswipes have ANY credibility at all? Oh yeah.. to the Darrells and MacBuckets they do….

  16. 16.

    Punchy

    Looking to Mitch Prothero’s reporting on Israeli matters for balanced coverage would be like looking to Joseph Goebbels for balanced coverage of the Holocaust.

    What the fuck is up with righties neverending use of Nazi and Holocaust analogies?

  17. 17.

    Slide.

    Hey… lets not leave out Newt (World War III) Gingrich, I mean he is always right isn’t he?

    “I think that this is one of the most powerful cases we could make — that, in fact, the entire process of peace in the region will become much easier once you don’t have Saddam Hussein in Iraq. And I think, frankly, at that point, the Syrians will start backing down and the Iranians will start backing down.” [Fox News’ The O’Reilly Factor, 12/6/02]

    yeah.. thats just what happened Newt…. what should we do next buddy?

  18. 18.

    Slide.

    Military strategist Sean Hannity pipes up too:

    “[T]he proof will be in the pudding. Because they’re going to see that their country is a lot freer, they’ll have more liberty. […] You keep mentioning these same naysayers. On every step of the way, they thought this military operation, they were lecturing us on how it wasn’t well thought out. This rolling was a bad idea, we didn’t have enough troops there, it was going to be a quagmire. All of these thousands, according to naysayers, of troops are going to die. […] [T]hey’ve actually made fools of them themselves.” [Fox News’ Hannity & Colmes, 4/10/03]

    yep….. we all made fools out of ourselves

  20. 20.

    Mr Furious

    Excellent work, Silde. Excellent.

    As I mentioned in the other thread, compare and contrast with the much-maligned and ridiculed Howard Dean.

    Who has credibility and considered “serious” about foriegn policy?

    Welcome to fucking BizarroWorld.

  21. 21.

    RSA

    Senior officials have responded by drafting legislation. . .

    When a news article says “senior officials”, it usually means the executive rather than legislative branch. Has it always been the case that whoever’s in the White House drafts laws for Congress? I don’t know enough U.S. history to judge, but it’s disturbing to find it so much taken for granted that Congress is in the pocket of the White House.

  22. 22.

    RSA

    Nice set of quotes, Slide. It’s getting to the point where failed neocon predictions would fill shelves of books at a library. Or better: I wonder how an anti-Fox News channel would do? One that alternated the public record of neocon bloviators with interviews in which they could try to justify their continued existence as commentators? A kind of “When Reality Attacks!” show.

  23. 23.

    SeesThroughIt

    What the fuck is up with righties neverending use of Nazi and Holocaust analogies?

    Pssst…embryonic stem cell research = eugenics. Pass it on.

  24. 24.

    Steve

    Has it always been the case that whoever’s in the White House drafts laws for Congress?

    Not at all, but there’s certainly nothing objectionable about it. It sure beats the more common practice of having lobbyists draft the bills!

    One of the more comical sidelights of last year’s Social Security debate is that no one on the Republican side wanted to put their name on an actual bill that would phase out Social Security, so Congress kept saying the President needed to tell them what bill he wanted, and the President kept saying that Congress needed to send him a bill.

  25. 25.

    chopper

    All of these thousands, according to naysayers, of troops are going to die

    oh, that’s my favorite. it was great how the dudes in charge convinced all these people that not only did saddam have WMDs, he’d totally use them against our troops.

    then, when those people freaked out at that notion and of course thought that thousands of troops would die on the battlefield, they called them ‘naysayers’ when it didn’t happen. because of course all that garbage about saddam having WMDs was a huge lie.

    it just doesn’t get any better.

  26. 26.

    Steve

    All of these thousands, according to naysayers, of troops are going to die.

    Let’s contrast this statement with an earlier Hannity quote:

    [April 6, 1999] Explain to the mothers and fathers of American servicemen that may come home in body bags why their son or daughter have to give up their life.

    I mean, everyone knows the guy is a hack, so I don’t know why I even bother to make this point.

  27. 27.

    chopper

    9/11 changed everything. including the definition of the word ‘naysayer’.

    seriously, look it up.

  28. 28.

    SeesThroughIt

    I mean, everyone knows the guy is a hack, so I don’t know why I even bother to make this point.

    Not on blogsforbush they don’t. Over there, you will learn that “the facts are there” for Hannity, but damn dirty libs don’t like him because he tells “unvarnished truths they don’t like.”

    Yeah.

  29. 29.

    Andrew

    Go figure. Don’t hold your breath waiting for an apology around here, though, Krista.

    Well, I’m convinced.

    Oh wait! The article, strangely, leads with a story about how Hezbullah did, in fact, move right in with a bunch of civilians in a 10 story building.

    Another example is of a Hezbullah scout spotting Israeli planes, next to buildings that have been bombed.

    And the article makes a big distinction between Hezbullah “fighters” and mere political operatives. (Are emnemy supply lines legitimate targets in war, or only soldiers?)

    And then article says that Hezbullah doesn’t show off its military. Except, you know, for a YEARLY MILTARY PARADE.

    And then the author says he never saw Hezbullah fighters standing on the street during bombings. That’s weird. I don’t suppose, they were, um, inside a building? Oh, and except for the Hezbullah guys that always found him.

    The article is just crap. It is one of the most incoherent, stupid pieces of journalism I have ever seen. There’s not even any need to present any opposing evidence because it is so self-contradictory.

    But the real question is, if they’re not hiding among civilians, WHERE ARE THEY?

  30. 30.

    Punchy

    Uh…went home for lunch, “found” the Bush-Blair speech live on CNN…and…well…it was like watching a train-wreck in the making.

    It’s no surprise that I believe this Prez is an idiot, but MAN, did he out-do himself this time. I just watched in horror, wicked embarrassed by what foreigners must think of us by watching him “speak”. Not a single question was answered as it was asked; instead, he just kept blurting out “terrorists”, “democracy”, “terrorism” over and over and over. Stuttering, stammering, pausing for lenghts of time that made me think he was stoned. It was a performance like I’ve never seen before by any leader….astounded in his inability to ever actually answer what is asked…

  31. 31.

    Andrew

    Some of the questions about Bush’s intelligence arose from what can, I think, justly be called his poor brain-to-mouth coordination, and from his relative inelegance or simplicity in talking about policy. That’s a yardstick that gets used, and it’s probably a shallow one. But there are so many other yardsticks — knowledge of one’s own strengths and weaknesses, the ability to make accurate visceral judgments about people, the mental discipline it takes to keep an eye on the forest without getting distracted by the trees, a good and accurate sense of the atmosphere around you at a given time. And by these yardsticks, which are also incomplete and probably insufficient, Bush fares much better, I think.

  32. 32.

    Andrew

    Oh wait, that’s fucking stupid as shit.

    Because it was Andrew Sullivan who wrote that.

  33. 33.

    Nutcutter

    Do these asswipes have ANY credibility at all? Oh yeah.. to the Darrells and MacBuckets they do….

    Well, Barnes is right in a macabre way. “The war” is not intensifying even though the carnage is ramping up all the time. We are at the 3000/month civilian death rate now, last I saw figures.

    But “the war”, which is the American operation, is not intensifying mainly because US forces are hunkered down in their safe zones and bases and trying to stay out of the line of fire. Our presence in Iraq right now is mostly irrelevant to what is going on in the country. The civil war is in progress and we are playing no part in it.

    So technically speaking, “the war” is not intensifying. It just depends on which war you are talking about.

  34. 34.

    Jim Allen

    Here’s a terrific Cobert interview with Eleanor Holmes Norton.

    I have never seen anyone out-Colbert Colbert before! She is absolutely brilliant! Unlike nearly all other politicians who’ve subjected themselves to “The Colbert Report”, EHN is the first one to know exactly what she’s getting into and diving deeply into the spirit of the whole thing.

    I was fortunate to hear her give a graduation speech years ago. She was a dynamic, thoughtful speaker. Her sense of humor showed then, and apparently hasn’t lessened.

  35. 35.

    Nutcutter

    The article is just crap. It is one of the most incoherent, stupid pieces of journalism I have ever seen. There’s not even any need to present any opposing evidence because it is so self-contradictory.

    But the real question is, if they’re not hiding among civilians, WHERE ARE THEY?

    No, the real question is WHY THE FUCK are they shooting into civilians? WHY THE FUCK? Because bloggers and a few idiot politicians can make lawyerly arguments that it’s okay?

    So idiots in here can spin the focus of the discussion away from the basic truth which is that Israel is callously murdering civilians here in a stupid war that is not likely to gain them anything, and lose them plenty …. which is small compared to what WE are losing in the process. Namely, every last shred of regard for America and its interests, in the Arab world.

    You can post this crap every day, it doesn’t change the facts: There is no excuse for firing rockets and throwing bombs onto civilians in this operation. None. Not one word to the contrary posted by the cadre of doubletalk in here in the last week, not a word of it, is convincing.

  36. 36.

    Steve

    Not on blogsforbush they don’t. Over there, you will learn that “the facts are there” for Hannity, but damn dirty libs don’t like him because he tells “unvarnished truths they don’t like.”

    Reminds me of how Republicans used to distance themselves from Rush and claim that he’s “just an entertainer” (the same line they use now with Coulter), yet now you see front-page posts at redstate.com boldly proclaiming that “Rush’s ideas matter,” as though he’s a Barry Goldwater for our times. Just more evidence of how they’re lying through their teeth when they say Coulter goes too far; in their hearts they long for a future time when it becomes socially acceptable to express full-throated agreement with her.

  37. 37.

    Pb

    Nutcutter,

    We are at the 3000/month civilian death rate now, last I saw figures.

    That’s probably a minimum; they’ve never bothered to try and count, but now they’ve settled on “at least 100 civilians every day” as their proverbial underestimate.

  38. 38.

    jg

    But this is all a good thing because our troops aren’t any good at the policing thing so they’re better off if the middle east erupts into full scale war.

  39. 39.

    Pb

    Steve,

    Just more evidence of how they’re lying through their teeth when they say Coulter goes too far; in their hearts they long for a future time when it becomes socially acceptable to express full-throated agreement with her.

    Actually I think they long for the day when Coulter is considered center or center-right, so they can express shrill disagreement with her because she’s too far to the *left*…

  40. 40.

    HyperIon

    In light of a recent Supreme Court ruling that the international Conventions apply to the treatment of detainees in the terrorism fight, Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales has spoken privately with Republican lawmakers about the need for such “protections,” according to someone who heard his remarks last week.

    right after hamdan, C-SPAN (which is NEVER mentioned by folks here and i’m telling you it rocks) broadcast a panel on it. several of the members immediately focused on this aspect of the decision. that is: interrogators would be liable for prosecution under US war crimes statutes.

    now Abu Gonzales wants to make sure that doesn’t happen.

  42. 42.

    Slide

    Watching the Bush/Blair press conference today and I’m reminded of what someone said when asked why does Bush explain everything like he is talking to idiots and his reponse was because that was most likely how it was explained to him. What an embarrasment the boy president is.

    America, had enough?

  43. 43.

    Par R

    To quote the “one-trick pony” Steve, from one of his more memorable epiphanic moments:

    “Voting for Democrats is like picking your nose. You like to do it, but you’re not proud of it.”

  44. 44.

    Steve

    Just google Par’s quote, and predictably you find it’s from Powerline. Seriously, if you can’t think up a line that “clever” on your own, you might just want to stay away from the comedy business.

  45. 45.

    Pb

    Steve Says:

    Just google Par’s quote, and predictably you find it’s from Powerline. Seriously, if you can’t think up a line that “clever” on your own

    Now, now, Steve. Par *could be* one of the morons on Powerline. Maybe he just steals quotes from *everybody else*…

  46. 46.

    Davebo

    Wow. So Par R is ignorant AND dishonest?

    A funny guy. But looks ain’t everything.

  48. 48.

    Punchy

    Good minds think alike…I said this earlier:

    Not a single question was answered as it was asked; instead, he just kept blurting out “terrorists”, “democracy”, “terrorism” over and over and over. Stuttering, stammering, pausing for lenghts of time that made me think he was stoned. It was a performance like I’ve never seen before by any leader…

    Slide follows with:

    Watching the Bush/Blair press conference today and I’m reminded of what someone said when asked why does Bush explain everything like he is talking to idiots and his reponse was because that was most likely how it was explained to him

    And even Joshua Marshall at TPM saw it, and agrees:

    Certainly, this would be a challenging question on more levels than one. But the president’s answer, quite a lengthy one actually, showed in a really frightening detail how President Bush seems to be basically brain dead on this issue.

    It’s official. This guy IS brain-dead. Now everyone sees it..

  49. 49.

    Nutcutter

    The photo MSNBC has up right now on its homepage banner, Bush and Blair, is …. well, disturbing.

    Can Bush possibly pull his head any further into his neck?

    I fear the little idiot is about to snap.

  50. 50.

    Par R

    Well, if Marshall agreed with you, then you must be a real fucking smart person…

    And even Joshua Marshall at TPM saw it, and agrees:

    Did the “lawyer” and one-trick pony, Steve, agree with you??

  51. 51.

    Perry Como

    Par, how’s that peace ins the Middle East going for you? Has there been anything that this adminstration has touched that hasn’t turned to shit?

  52. 52.

    Nutcutter

    Did the “lawyer” and one-trick pony, Steve, agree with you??

    Okay, review time. Y’all do know that Par is DougJ, right?

  53. 53.

    Steve

    What is my trick? I don’t know a trick. They didn’t teach me a trick in “law” school.

  55. 55.

    Punchy

    Well, if Marshall agreed with you, then you must be a real fucking smart person…

    Thank you.

  56. 56.

    Par R

    I never knew a working lawyer who obviously had as much “free” time as you, Steve. I trust that you’re not including your “down time” commenting on blogs in the billable hours charged to clients, assuming, of course, that you have any clients.

  62. 62.

    Steve

    I never knew a working lawyer who obviously had as much “free” time as you, Steve.

    Yes, it’s amazing, isn’t it? I must not “be” a “real” “lawyer” after “all.”

    I’d probably have more time for work if I ripped off every one of my comments from some other blog, like you do.

  63. 63.

    Bender

    Sec. Rice working hard on Middle East peace.

    Oh, come on. That’s an annual thing that every Sec’y of State has to do. Take your BDS pill.

    Bill Clinton’s secretary of state Madeleine Albright relished the occasion – once donning a bowler hat and tuxedo for her star turn.

    “When you’re not so sweet, I call the Seventh Fleet, That’s the American Way,” she crooned, jabbing at her Chinese counterpart one year, to the tune of Bob Hope’s “Thanks for the Memories.”

    Two years ago Colin Powell, initially wary of lampooning himself at his first ARF in 2001, had them rolling in the aisles with a version of the Village People hit “YMCA.”

  65. 65.

    jaime

    Bush at the press conference:

    David, It’s an interesting period because, ummm–instead of having foreign policies based upon trying to create a sense of stability, we have a foreign policy that addresses the root causes of violence and instability. For a while, American foreign policy was just, Let’s hope everything is calm — manage calm. But beneath the surface brewed a lot of resentment and anger that was manifested on September the 11th.

    And so we’ve taken a foreign policy that says: On the one hand, we will protect ourselves from further attack in the short run by being aggressive in chasing down the killers and bringing them to justice.

    Clinton’s policy was failed because of all that calm.

  66. 66.

    Nutcutter

    David, It’s an interesting period because, ummm–instead of having foreign policies based upon trying to create a sense of stability, we have a foreign policy that addresses the root causes of violence and instability. For a while, American foreign policy was just, Let’s hope everything is calm — manage calm. But beneath the surface brewed a lot of resentment and anger that was manifested on September the 11th.

    And so we’ve taken a foreign policy that says: On the one hand, we will protect ourselves from further attack in the short run by being aggressive in chasing down the killers and bringing them to justice.

    Good Christ. If there was ever any doubt that the country and the tail wagging the world’s dog were being operated by a complete and utter moron … a lunatic … a deluded fool … today has proved it beyond all possible doubt.

    Seriously, I think the man is headed for a breakdown. He is babbling incoherently now …. but it’s worse than ususal. Often when he babbles he is intending to make a coherent statement, he just can’t form the sentences.

    Here, I don’t see any actual coherent thought behind the babble. I see a confused and childish view of a big, scary and complicated world.

    Good find Jaime. But Dog help us, we are royally fucked.

  68. 68.

    Ancient Purple

    I guess Paris Hilton is deserving of even more millions after all.

    Republican leaders are willing to allow the first minimum wage increase in a decade but only if it’s coupled with a cut in future inheritance taxes on multimillion-dollar estates, congressional aides said Friday.

    Link.

    I’m surprised that Hastert or Frist didn’t trot out “trickle down” just for show.

  69. 69.

    jaime

    Good find Jaime

    Actually, i should have attributed it to crooks and liars. They have the video and transcript of at least part of the presser.

    I think it’s less incoherent babble than Bush incoherently trying to get out keep his talking points straight. The GOP narrative over the insanity of the past couple of weeks has been to assign blame to the collective “failures” of the Clinton administration. It’s actually an interesting ploy, the pain of the conflict was bound to happen and the war is actually some kind of progress.

    But in Bush’s hands it’s like you or I trying to QB the 2000 Rams offense.

  70. 70.

    jg

    The GOP narrative over the insanity of the past couple of weeks has been to assign blame to the collective “failures” of the Clinton administration.

    And at the same time blame the rise of the Khmer Rouge on democrats weakening a president (Richard “peacemaker’ Nixon)with impeachment proceedings.

    Doublethink

  71. 71.

    Steve

    Very good speech today by Chuck Hagel, one of the few foreign policy “adults” out there.

    Hagel is extremely conservative, and despite his “maverick” credentials, votes with the Republicans 95% of the time. Yet I wonder if the principles in this speech will be harder to accept for the right or for the left.

  74. 74.

    Perry Como

    I think Hagel is totally off base. We need to stay the course. Everything is working out well and any deviation from the course will result in disaster.

  75. 75.

    Andrew

    Great! Chuck Hagel said some shit about leadership and how some stuff is really important and bad things might happen somewhere sometime if we don’t take action.

    I mean, what the fuck? He’s serious because he wears a suit and talks in complete sentences?

    If you say “leadership” enough, apparently Steve Clemons thinks that your speech is “important” and “brave.”

    That speech was the biggest sack of platitudinal shit I have read in the last month. “We must be clear in our principles and interests, with friends and foes alike.” Whoa. A fucking foreign policy breakthrough. “America is always strongest when it acts in concert with friends and allies.” Well, fuck me sideways. Is that supposed to be a dig at W? I’m sure the Whitehouse will take it into consideration.

    Give me more W instead. At least people aren’t pretending his semi-coherent, anti-grammatical outbursts are “serious.”

  76. 76.

    Faux News

    Clinton’s policy was failed because of all that calm.

    Come on Jaime! Every one knows that the whole “Peace and Prosperity” thing is just SO 90’s! Get with the times OK?

  78. 78.

    Steve

    Andrew, I’m not sure why you don’t understand that it is, in fact, quite brave in this time and place for a Republican to stand up and make the case for diplomatic consensus as opposed to unilateral action.

    Perhaps you think the principles described by Hagel are meaningless because they ought to be obvious to everyone. Okay, but they’re not. And if we’re looking to turn around the disaster that is our present foreign policy, then more people need to understand that the world is not simply divided up into (1) folks who declare war and (2) pussies.

  80. 80.

    Andrew

    No, I think Hagel’s shit is stupid because it won’t have any effect on anything the Whitehouse does or thinks.

    Sorry if I don’t take him seriously. He’s such a Maverick, he’s gone along with the Bush Administration on 99% of everything instead of 100%. What’s he going to do? Vote against John Bolton? Ha ha.

  81. 81.

    Andrew

    Steven Clemons: Senator Hagel. Thanks for a very inspiring and unfortunately very sober (given these times we are in) speech.

    Yesterday you were unable to attend the foreign relations committee hearings on John Bolton. And it occurs to me that Ambassador Bolton probably does not share the same level of concern you do that the “world’s trust and confidence in America’s purpose is eroding.” And I’m interested — while I agree with virtually every word that you said in your speech — I’m interested in how you maintain support for Ambassador Bolton’s confirmation when he seems to be so at odds with the spirit of what you talked about today?

    Senator Chuck Hagel: From now on no smart people can ask questions. It’s a rule senators usually follow.

    Let’s take first the question on Ambassador Bolton. I was not there. And I think your analysis of where he would be in regard to my observations and thoughts presented in the speech I suspect are about right.

    I’ve never engaged Ambassador Bolton on some of the specifics that I have presented here this morning.

    But get to the heart of your question, which is a good question, I would answer this way: I have not decided, if Mr. Bolton comes up for a vote, how I will vote.

    Well, how outstandingly brave of him.

  82. 82.

    Nutcutter

    Well, how outstandingly brave of him.

    I keep telling you guys. It’s Kabuki on Capitol Hill. Theater. Posturing. It’s an elaborate game. Whether it should be or not, I am not qualified to say, I have never built and operated a deliberative body. But it is.

    You know why it was so easy to mine Kerry’s career for things to use against him? He spent all those years in that Kabuki theater.

    I wouldn’t take all that stuff too seriously, unless you are either a Senator, or a staffer. From out here, it just looks like something out of Joseph Heller.

  83. 83.

    Birdzilla

    Isreal is skipping:

    War reparations refer to the monetary compensation provided to a triumphant nation or coalition from a defeated nation or coalition. The compensation is meant to cover damage or injury during a war. Generally, the term war reparations refers to money or goods changing hands, rather than such property transfers as the annexation of land.

  84. 84.

    Andrew

    I keep telling you guys. It’s Kabuki on Capitol Hill. Theater. Posturing. It’s an elaborate game. Whether it should be or not, I am not qualified to say, I have never built and operated a deliberative body. But it is.

    Exactly. My point is not to criticise Hagel, because he is simply a deterministic poltico-automaton, but to criticise the journamalismists who pretend that this shit is serious and will actually have any effect.

  85. 85.

    Nutcutter

    Exactly. My point is not to criticise Hagel, because he is simply a deterministic poltico-automaton, but to criticise the journamalismists who pretend that this shit is serious and will actually have any effect.

    Gotcha. Agreed.

  86. 86.

    Nutcutter

    More … I think the journamalismists, after they have been there long enough to know where the restrooms are, become part of the Kabuki, and are useless to us.

  89. 89.

    Andrew

    More … I think the journamalismists, after they have been there long enough to know where the restrooms are, become part of the Kabuki, and are useless to us.

    I agree with that too.

    My actual point is just to make fun of Steve for falling for it.

  90. 90.

    Punchy

    Tim, why don’t you get started on the beer thang NOW, so we’ll have it…ya know….by 10:30 am tomorrow.

    Mind picking a beer that ISN’T just sold in a 1.5 mile radius of U of Pitt?

  91. 91.

    Steve

    I don’t know that I’m falling for anything. The intended audience for the speech was not George W. Bush.

    The present administration won’t always be in power, and it’s important to remind people that other foreign-policy ideologies besides the self-destructive Bush Doctrine remain viable. Maybe in the next election, we won’t be presented with another false choice between invading someone and “appeasing the terrorists.”

    You guys are taking a pretty nihilist view, or maybe fatalist is the word I’m looking for.

  92. 92.

    Pooh

    Steve, how can you possibly show your face on this blog after being “scare” “”quoted”” into oblivion?

    Oh and to save One-trick Pony Par some trouble…Poop. (Where you at Krista?)

  94. 94.

    Andrew

    “Steve,” “I” “was” “kidding.”

    (But not about Hagel being a useless asshat.)

  97. 97.

    Steve

    But not about Hagel being a useless asshat.

    Well, look, I don’t deny that Chuck Hagel has more than a little John Cole in him. But at least he’s no McCain!

  98. 98.

    Nutcutter

    But at least he’s no McCain!

    I assume you’ve all seen that shot of McCain hugging Bush.

    If Cole ever did that …. well, I don’t even want to think about it.

  99. 99.

    chopper

    I’d probably have more time for work if I ripped off every one of my comments from some other blog, like you do.

    shnap.

  100. 100.

    HyperIon

    if george bush is such a moron, why have only about half of the citizenry noticed?

    at this point i have given up on the elected representatives.

    but what about the people who love their country and should be howling with rage and shame?

    i guess this is my “where’s the outrage?” moment…or week or year. i feel like we are a nation of enablers (and shoppers of course).

  101. 101.

    SeesThroughIt

    the world is not simply divided up into (1) folks who declare war and (2) pussies.

    Actually, the preferred terminology these days is:

    (1) conservative Christians, and
    (2) the evil opposition

  102. 102.

    demimondian

    Hey, Perry? I’ve got an IE-friendly balloon juice plonking script. Is there a way to contact you so that I can pass it on?

  103. 103.

    Perry Como

    demi, click on the logo of the site I host the Greasemonkey script on to send me an email. I’ll post it with the Firefox script.

  104. 104.

    Darrell

    The present administration won’t always be in power, and it’s important to remind people that other foreign-policy ideologies besides the self-destructive Bush Doctrine remain viable. Maybe in the next election, we won’t be presented with another false choice between invading someone and “appeasing the terrorists.”

    Well, since one of the the primary tenets of the “self-destructive” Bush doctrine is not to make distinctions between the terrorists and those governments which harbor terrorists, like Afghanistan.. I thought you lefties were all for invading Afghanistan to topple the Taliban govt there. Because Afghanistan was definitely Bush doctrine.

    And given that so many of our allies were waist deep themselves in dirty business deals with Saddam, is it really considered such rightwingnuttery to act unilaterally at times? especially when multilateral action is not possible due to the corruption and/or unwillingness of our allies. I mean, look at Iran and Sudan.. Our European ‘allies’ are doing big business with the governments of both of them.

    You libs need to explain how far you’re willing to bend over to make nice with corrupt allies who, in the case of France and the Soviets, would sell out civilization over a few euros. Anyone who questions your nonsensical worship at the alter of “multilateralism” doesn’t qualify as an adult, according to what’s been stated here. Yeah, real deep thinkers you are.

  105. 105.

    Darrell

    Maybe in the next election, we won’t be presented with another false choice between invading someone and “appeasing the terrorists.”

    At the time of our last election, we had ALREADY INVADED, so there was no such ‘false choice’. Nice try though. It sounded real Smart.Strong

  106. 106.

    Perry Como

    It’s obvious that the Bush doctrine is brilliant and will be praised for decades to come. Thanks to Bush’s bold vision: Iraq is peaceful and prosperous; Iran has given up its nuclear ambitions; North Korea has parades of puppies and flowers; and Israel is having tea party with its neighbors.

    How dare you moonbat liberals not accept reality!

  107. 107.

    Perry Como

    When Bush said he was a uniter, he meant it!

    According to a poll released by the Beirut Center for Research and Information, 87 percent of Lebanese support Hizbullah’s fight with Israel, a rise of 29 percent on a similar poll conducted in February. More striking, however, is the level of support for Hizbullah’s resistance from non-Shiite communities. Eighty percent of Christians polled supported Hizbullah along with 80 percent of Druze and 89 percent of Sunnis.

  108. 108.

    Steve

    At the time of our last election, we had ALREADY INVADED, so there was no such ‘false choice’. Nice try though. It sounded real Smart.Strong

    So it’s your view that the doctrine of preemptive war is off the table, that Iraq was a one-time deal? I thought not.

  109. 109.

    Slide

    You libs need to explain how far you’re willing to bend over to make nice with corrupt allies who, in the case of France and the Soviets, would sell out civilization over a few euros. Anyone who questions your nonsensical worship at the alter of “multilateralism” doesn’t qualify as an adult, according to what’s been stated here. Yeah, real deep thinkers you are

    You know the thing that gets me about the moronic betwetting naive right wing epitomized by always wrong Darrell, is that they never seem to learn very much. They seem to talk as if everything has worked out exactly as they had planned. Lol Unfortunately for the country, that is not the case as every single foreign affairs policy of this incompetent administration has been an acknowledged failure. From the horrors of Iraq which has strenghtened the hand of Iran to the refusal to talk to North Korea, to the latest missteps in the Middle East which has managed to make Hezbolla heros across the Muslim world. Even the authoritarian dictorships like Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan that initially were against Hezbolla have turned around and now support them because the USA let Israel go nuts killing innocent civilians.

    This administration has been an total and complete failure of tremendous magnitude. And yet the simple mind of Darrell comes up with these rapier like attacks:

    Anyone who questions your nonsensical worship at the alter of “multilateralism” doesn’t qualify as an adult, according to what’s been stated here. Yeah, real deep thinkers you are

    Darrell as a supporter of Bush you are attacking liberals for not being deep thinkers? lol… god you are fuckin funny.

  111. 111.

    Rusty Shackleford

    Punchy Says:

    Uh…went home for lunch, “found” the Bush-Blair speech live on CNN…and…well…it was like watching a train-wreck in the making.

    It’s no surprise that I believe this Prez is an idiot, but MAN, did he out-do himself this time. I just watched in horror, wicked embarrassed by what foreigners must think of us by watching him “speak”. Not a single question was answered as it was asked; instead, he just kept blurting out “terrorists”, “democracy”, “terrorism” over and over and over. Stuttering, stammering, pausing for lenghts of time that made me think he was stoned. It was a performance like I’ve never seen before by any leader….astounded in his inability to ever actually answer what is asked…

    July 28th, 2006 at 12:39 pm

    Check President Bush’s response to David Gregory around :30 minutes in.

    Here at CSPAN under “Recent Programs”

  112. 112.

    Slide

    Check President Bush’s response to David Gregory around :30 minutes in

    Inspiring isn’t it?

  113. 113.

    Darrell

    So it’s your view that the doctrine of preemptive war is off the table, that Iraq was a one-time deal? I thought not.

    What’s the alternative you libs are advocating? To take the preemptive strike option off the table in all cases? That sounds really smart libs. I think you should run with that one

  114. 114.

    Darrell

    to the refusal to talk to North Korea,

    We tried talking with North Korea in the 90’s with Jimmah Carter and Bill Clinton. They told us North Korea would cease development of nuclear weapons. How’d that one turn out?

    to the latest missteps in the Middle East which has managed to make Hezbolla heros across the Muslim world.

    Yeah, you loons are sooo right, blaming that on Bush. No irrationality there on your part, right? Please, since you see yourselves as speaking ‘truth to power’, why don’t you scream your asses off about how the current Lebanese/Israeli problems are “all Bush’s fault!”

  115. 115.

    Slide

    Do you think bin Laden has a poster of George Bush on his cave somewhere? I mean is there any one man on the planet that has done more to advance bin Laden’s cause? bin Laden totally outsmarted the great Decider. The whole point of terrorism, 911 style, is to get the other side to overreact and therefore win more converts to your cause. Bush played right into his hands by invading Iraq, which happened to be an oil rich Muslim country that we now know posed no threat to anybody. EXACTLY what bin Laden had been saying for years. BINGO. Bin Laden must have thanked his lucky stars (do Muslims have lucky stars?) for America to have such a stupid and eaisly manipulated dullard as President. But it gets better and better. Torture? yep… that worked out very very well for him too. Sexually humiliate Muslim men? yep…. more members for suicide missions lining up at bin Laden’s door. Secret prisons? Rendition? Gitmo? YES, YES YES he must have shouted as he read about the flushing of a Koran down a toilet.. YES YES YES.

    Ahhhhh… bin Laden you have no idea how lucky you have been to have George Bush be president at this very crucial time in our history.

  116. 116.

    jaime

    What’s the alternative you libs are advocating? To take the preemptive strike option off the table in all cases? That sounds really smart libs. I think you should run with that one

    Yeah. Iraq worked like a beaut. I have a great idea, lets do Iran. It’ll work even better the next time. More troops, a functioning Air Force, bigger population. Flowers and Candy in Tehran…with the Darrell’s of the right clogging their artieries with even fattier Cheetos.

  117. 117.

    Steve

    What’s the alternative you libs are advocating? To take the preemptive strike option off the table in all cases? That sounds really smart libs. I think you should run with that one

    Most rational people have learned from the Iraq experience that, at a minimum, the evidentiary threshold for launching a preemptive war needs to be much higher than what we had in that case. You, obviously, are not among them.

  118. 118.

    Darrell

    Even the authoritarian dictorships like Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan that initially were against Hezbolla have turned around and now support them because the USA let Israel go nuts killing innocent civilians

    Yes, we “let” Israel defend herself.. Israel is not a separate sovereign nation.. they are part of the United States and beholden to almighty Bush!

  119. 119.

    Slide

    What’s the alternative you libs are advocating? To take the preemptive strike option off the table in all cases? That sounds really smart libs. I think you should run with that one

    It seemed to have worked for over 200 years.

    We tried talking with North Korea in the 90’s with Jimmah Carter and Bill Clinton. They told us North Korea would cease development of nuclear weapons. How’d that one turn out?

    Pretty good actually. Not 100% but North Korea did not enrich ANY plutonium during that period. How’s you’re way working out?

    Yeah, you loons are sooo right, blaming that on Bush. No irrationality there on your part, right? Please, since you see yourselves as speaking ‘truth to power’, why don’t you scream your asses off about how the current Lebanese/Israeli problems are “all Bush’s fault!”

    Never said that Einstein but Bush/Rice has made matters worse. Had we come right out and done the right thing like all prior Dem and Rep Presidents have done by playing an honest broker and called for an immediate ceasefire things would be a lot better for our “interests”. To appear as if we don’t care about innocent civilian deaths in Lebanon causes every moderate arab sitting in a suburb of Cairo or Aman to see us as the enemy. Again, just stupid and counter-productive policy made by naive ideolgues.

  120. 120.

    Darrell

    Most rational people have learned from the Iraq experience that, at a minimum, the evidentiary threshold for launching a preemptive war needs to be much higher than what we had in that case

    That was a nice sounding answer Steve. However it has nothing to do with anything I’ve posted. You did frame the debate as one of false choices, remember?

    Maybe in the next election, we won’t be presented with another false choice between invading someone and “appeasing the terrorists.”

    I wanted to make sure everyone was clear on the fact that in the last election, we had ALREADY invaded, so there were no such ‘false choices’ to be made

  121. 121.

    Darrell

    Not 100% but North Korea did not enrich ANY plutonium during that period.

    Is that the story you libs are going with? Please run with that one

  122. 122.

    Slide

    Yes, we “let” Israel defend herself.. Israel is not a separate sovereign nation.. they are part of the United States and beholden to almighty Bush!

    Lol..lol…lol No comment. What a fucking moron. How much military aid do we give Israel each year? If we said knock it off, they would defy us? Boy you really are one of the most naive little bedwetters I have seen in quite a while

  123. 123.

    Slide

    Is that the story you libs are going with? Please run with that one

    yep… your administration in 5 1/2 years has accomplished what in North Korea again?

  124. 124.

    Slide

    Not only did we not tell Israel to “knock it off” we did this:

    WASHINGTON — The United States has approved an Israeli request for “accelerated deliveries” of precision-guided air munitions to Israel.

    Officials said the Bush administration approved an Israeli request for bunker-buster weapons days after the outbreak of the Hizbullah war on July 12. They said the Israel Air Force concluded that its heavy air strikes on Hizbullah strongholds around Lebanon have been ineffective.

    Do you think the whole Muslim world is composed of idiots?

  125. 125.

    Darrell

    Had we come right out and done the right thing like all prior Dem and Rep Presidents have done by playing an honest broker and called for an immediate ceasefire

    Oh yeah, because temporary ceasefires are ALWAYS what’s best, especially in this case, because it would give Hezbollah time to regroup and rearm. How dare Bush not call for an immediate ceasefire!

  126. 126.

    Perry Como

    Time for another round of Let’s Ignore the Facts! We have our returning champion, Darrell.

    They told us North Korea would cease development of nuclear weapons. How’d that one turn out?

    The policy was working quite well, except for the bit about North Korea pursuing enrichment due to a technicality that was overlooked (plutonium vs. uranium). But when the Bush doctrine was adopted, in all of its glory and brilliance, North Korea started enriching plutonium *and* uranium. Instead of sitting down and renegotiating the terms, the Bush doctrine says its best to ignore the problem!

    Brilliant!

    Just like the Bush doctrine is being enacted between Lebanon and Israel right now. Instead of engaging in diplomatic talks for the past 6 years, attempting to come to an agreement on how to get Hezbollah to disarm…ignore the problem!

    That’s the problem with statists. They would prefer to let the situation escalate until it can only be dealt with as much fury and force as they can muster. When the situation doesn’t escalate to that point, they force the issue.

    The abuse of SWAT around the country is the logical parallel to Bush’s Iraq doctorine. Except SWAT usually has a plan on what to do after they kick the door down and cuff the homeowner.

  127. 127.

    Rusty Shackleford

    Bush at the press conference:

    “…For a while, American foreign policy was just, Let’s hope everything is calm — manage calm. But beneath the surface brewed a lot of resentment and anger that was manifested on September the 11th.”

    Resentment and anger was also simmering within the Neocons and after 9/11 occurred that resentment and anger manifested itself in the form of the The Bush Doctrine.

  128. 128.

    Darrell

    Boy you really are one of the most naive little bedwetters I have seen in quite a while

    This, from the guy who believes that N. Korea didn’t enrich any plutonium until Bush took office?

  129. 129.

    Slide

    ahhh.. the Bush foreign policy in action:

    DAMASCUS, Syria, July 27 — At the onset of the Lebanese crisis, Arab governments, starting with Saudi Arabia, slammed Hezbollah for recklessly provoking a war, providing what the United States and Israel took as a wink and a nod to continue the fight. With hundreds of Lebanese dead and Hezbollah holding out against the vaunted Israeli military for more than two weeks, the tide of public opinion across the Arab world is surging behind the organization, transforming the Shiite group’s leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, into a folk hero and forcing a change in official statements.

    The Saudi royal family and King Abdullah II of Jordan, who were initially more worried about the rising power of Shiite Iran, Hezbollah’s main sponsor, are scrambling to distance themselves from Washington.
    An outpouring of newspaper columns, cartoons, blogs and public poetry readings have showered praise on Hezbollah while attacking the United States and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice for trumpeting American plans for a “new Middle East” that they say has led only to violence and repression.

    .

  130. 130.

    Darrell

    Instead of sitting down and renegotiating the terms

    That is fucking hilarious. Seriously. After breaking all their previous promises, the lib answer is to.. Drumroll…RENEGOTIATE with the N. Koreans again! Because the N. Koreans can be trusted, right? That is brilliant Perry. And so typical of liberal mentality. I think you libs can really be trusted with national security.

    Now why don’t you run along and change the subject again to the national debt just like you always do?

  131. 131.

    Perry Como

    Resentment and anger was also simmering within the Neocons and after 9/11 occurred that resentment and anger manifested itself in the form of the The Bush Doctrine.

    Here’s a nice take down of the Neocons by renowned Looney Liberal Leftist, Ron Paul:

    1. They agree with Trotsky on permanent revolution, violent as well as intellectual.
    2. They are for redrawing the map of the Middle East and are willing to use force to do so.
    3. They believe in preemptive war to achieve desired ends.
    4. They accept the notion that the ends justify the means—that hard-ball politics is a moral necessity.
    5. They express no opposition to the welfare state.
    6. They are not bashful about an American empire; instead they strongly endorse it.
    7. They believe lying is necessary for the state to survive.
    8. They believe a powerful federal government is a benefit.
    9. They believe pertinent facts about how a society should be run should be held by the elite and
    withheld from those who do not have the courage to deal with it.
    10. They believe neutrality in foreign affairs is ill-advised.
    11. They hold Leo Strauss in high esteem.
    12. They believe imperialism, if progressive in nature, is appropriate.
    13. Using American might to force American ideals on others is acceptable. Force should
    not be limited to the defense of our country.
    14. 9-11 resulted from the lack of foreign entanglements, not from too many.
    15. They dislike and despise libertarians (therefore, the same applies to all strict constitutionalists.)
    16. They endorse attacks on civil liberties, such as those found in the Patriot Act, as being necessary.
    17. They unconditionally support Israel and have a close alliance with the Likud Party.

  132. 132.

    Nutcutter

    Again, we must inquire of the proprietors, John and Tim.

    Look at this thread, and look at what Darrell is doing here.

    Are the page views really worth it?

    What a fucking joke.

    Another evening of “You libs” and the standard Darrell bullshit.

    I gotta tell you, I don’t understand it. Really.

  133. 133.

    jaime

    After breaking all their previous promises, the lib answer is to.. Drumroll…RENEGOTIATE with the N. Koreans again

    We have no other choice, Darrell…unless we re-fill the military ranks with chickenhawk coward bloggers, radio hosts, and Young Republicans, we have no military option.

  134. 134.

    Slide

    This, from the guy who believes that N. Korea didn’t enrich any plutonium until Bush took office?

    not what I said bubble boy but perhaps this will enlighten you a bit on the nuances of North Korean nuclea development:

    Indeed. But perhaps some facts are in order here. North Korea first began reprocessing plutonium during the administration of George Bush Sr. and may even have built one or two nuclear bombs during that period. Then, in 1994, they began preparations to remove plutonium fuel rods from their storage site, expel international weapons inspectors, and build more bombs. Clinton threatened the North Koreans with war if they went down this road, and then, after sending Jimmy Carter to Pyongyang for negotiations, signed a deal to keep North Korea’s plutonium under international control in return for the delivery of two light water nuclear reactors, shipments of heavy fuel oil, and normalization of relations.

    For the next six years that agreement held together and North Korea built no more bombs. North Korea even made some promising overtures about missile development late in Clinton’s term, but there was no time to conclude the negotiations and the Bush administration showed no interest in following up on anything that it associated with the Clinton era. Fred Kaplan tells the rest of the story in “Rolling Blunder” from our May 2004 issue:

    On Oct. 4, 2002, officials from the U.S. State Department flew to Pyongyang, the capital of North Korea, and confronted Kim Jong-il’s foreign ministry with evidence that Kim had acquired centrifuges for processing highly enriched uranium, which could be used for building nuclear weapons. To the Americans’ surprise, the North Koreans conceded. It was an unsettling revelation, coming just as the Bush administration was gearing up for a confrontation with Iraq. This new threat wasn’t imminent; processing uranium is a tedious task; Kim Jong-il was almost certainly years away from grinding enough of the stuff to make an atomic bomb.

    But the North Koreans had another route to nuclear weapons — a stash of radioactive fuel rods, taken a decade earlier from its nuclear power plant in Yongbyon. These rods could be processed into plutonium — and, from that, into A-bombs — not in years but in months. Thanks to an agreement brokered by the Clinton administration, the rods were locked in a storage facility under the monitoring of international weapons-inspectors. Common sense dictated that — whatever it did about the centrifuges — the Bush administration should do everything possible to keep the fuel rods locked up.

    Unfortunately, common sense was in short supply

    ..

    facts are such inconvenient things for right wing bedwetters

  135. 135.

    Darrell

    Damn that Bush for not sitting down and negotiating another agreement with those North Koreans! especially after the NK’s never abided with their previous agreements.

    Perry likes to mock conservatives, but nothing can top his own loopy viewpoints when he dares to venture away from the safety of his snark-posts.

  136. 136.

    Slide

    But Darrell.. there is more to the North Korea story:

    Unfortunately, common sense was in short supply. After a few shrill diplomatic exchanges over the uranium, Pyongyang upped the ante. The North Koreans expelled the international inspectors, broke the locks on the fuel rods, loaded them onto a truck, and drove them to a nearby reprocessing facility, to be converted into bomb-grade plutonium. The White House stood by and did nothing. Why did George W. Bush–his foreign policy avowedly devoted to stopping “rogue regimes” from acquiring weapons of mass destruction–allow one of the world’s most dangerous regimes to acquire the makings of the deadliest WMDs? Given the current mayhem and bloodshed in Iraq, it’s hard to imagine a decision more ill-conceived than invading that country unilaterally without a plan for the “post-war” era. But the Bush administration’s inept diplomacy toward North Korea might well have graver consequences. President Bush made the case for war in Iraq on the premise that Saddam Hussein might soon have nuclear weapons–which turned out not to be true. Kim Jong-il may have nuclear weapons now; he certainly has enough plutonium to build some, and the reactors to breed more.

    wow.. that worked out well Darrell?

  137. 137.

    Perry Como

    Because the N. Koreans can be trusted, right?

    They used a technicality. Kind of like the Yoo memo, but the North Koreans were on more solid legal footing.

    And so typical of liberal mentality.

    You still have no clue.

    Now why don’t you run along and change the subject again to the national debt just like you always do?

    Ah yes, that pesky debt. Something conservatives don’t worry about.

  138. 138.

    Slide

    Facts Darrell…. facts…. but you’re right.. we shouldn’t talk to North Korea. We shouldn’t talk to Iran. We shouldn’t talk to Syria. We sholdn’t talk to Hezbolla. Nah…. we macho right wing bedwetters we dont’ talk to no badguys…we just sit around in a nice circle jerk and tell ourselves how bad Clinton is.

  139. 139.

    Perry Como

    Perry likes to mock conservatives

    I like to mock Neocons and Statists. I actually like conservatives that don’t believe in nation building, respect civil liberties and actually believe in smaller government. It’s a shame what’s been done to the modern conservative movement.

  140. 140.

    Slide

    The right wing bedwetting crowd doesn’t talk to our enemies but they do things like this:

    The Iran-Contra Affair (also called the Iran-Contra Matter and Irangate) was one of the largest political scandals in the United States during the 1980s. [1] It involved several members of the Reagan Administration who in 1986 helped sell arms to Iran, an avowed enemy, and used the proceeds to fund the Contras, an anti-communist guerrilla organization in Nicaragua.and this

    Five years before Saddam Hussein’s now infamous 1988 gassing of the Kurds, a key meeting took place in Baghdad that would play a significant role in forging close ties between Saddam Hussein and Washington. It happened at a time when Saddam was first alleged to have used chemical weapons. The meeting in late December 1983 paved the way for an official restoration of relations between Iraq and the US, which had been severed since the 1967 Arab-Israeli war.

    With the Iran-Iraq war escalating, President Ronald Reagan dispatched his Middle East envoy, a former secretary of defense, to Baghdad with a hand-written letter to Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and a message that Washington was willing at any moment to resume diplomatic relations.

    That envoy was Donald Rumsfeld.

  141. 141.

    Slide

    Darrell, Darrell, Darrell… must be exhausting to scamper around trying to find some ray of sunshine in the boy president’s foreign policy. My condolences. I truly feel your pain.

  142. 142.

    Demdude

    Damn that Bush for not sitting down and negotiating another agreement with those North Koreans! especially after the NK’s never abided with their previous agreements.

    Isn’t that what Bush is doing now?

  143. 143.

    Slide

    oh well… looks like Darrell wasn’t up to it today. And to think I was just getting started. Adios my friend, keep the faith baby.

  144. 144.

    Steve

    Oh yeah, because temporary ceasefires are ALWAYS what’s best, especially in this case, because it would give Hezbollah time to regroup and rearm. How dare Bush not call for an immediate ceasefire!

    Literally 15 minutes later…

    Bush, Blair call for Mideast cease-fire

    President Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair on Friday announced that they would support a U.N. cease-fire resolution to end the Mideast crisis and the use of a multinational force to stabilize southern Lebanon…

    A cease-fire plan could be taken up by the United Nations as early as Monday, Bush and Blair said…

    Bush said he planned to appeal to the United Nations “for a Chapter 7 resolution setting out a clear framework for cessation of hostilities on an urgent basis, and mandating the multinational force.”

    This is why conservatives are taken so much more seriously on foreign policy. They know that it’s way premature to talk about a cease-fire at 7:15, but it’s a great idea at 7:30! You gotta respect how those extra 15 minutes will stop Hezbollah from regrouping and rearming, that’s for sure.

  145. 145.

    Perry Como

    This is why conservatives are taken so much more seriously on foreign policy.

    But we need to attack Syria! And Iran! And Mexico!

  147. 147.

    Perry Como

    By we, you mean, everyone EXCEPT me.

    We’ll be fighting the War of Ideas on the home front.

    :Onward keyboard soldiers, marching as to blog:
    :With the light of Kristol, clearing Librul fog:

    82nd Chairborne reporting for duty!

    /me tidies my bath robe

  149. 149.

    Perry Como

    Think Tanks are hard work.

    Almost as hard as manning the Logitech Humvee turrets to shoot words of wisdom at the leftists. No wall of facts can block their resolve.

  150. 150.

    CaseyL

    Cut Darrell some slack, y’all.

    Ignoring the mounting evidence that the President of the United States is a brain-damaged nutjob is hard, y’know. It’s hard work.

    No wonder the Right wants a WWIII so bad. They figure, if they’re lucky, there won’t be any records or survivors left who’ll remember their complicity in electing and supporting the brain-damaged nutjob who made it all possible.

  151. 151.

    Nutcutter

    They know that it’s way premature to talk about a cease-fire at 7:15, but it’s a great idea at 7:30!

    Those who study history can cite numerous examples of opportunities for peace squandered when hostilities were ended 15 minutes too soon.

    Finally we have a president who understands the subtleties of warfare and border conflicts, and applies his ministrations with care and precision.

  152. 152.

    Slide.

    I don’t often agree with Andrew Sullivan but he really hit the nail on the head regarding our boy president’s press conference today wiht Tony Blair:

    This is a war Iran started. I fear it has just begun. Its ultimate end is simple: the eradication of Israel and the murder of every Jew in the Middle East. Hezbollah and Ahmadinejad are very, very clear about this. And they are playing the p.r. game brilliantly. The president’s press conference with Blair today struck me as revealing – and not in a good way. Bush is right on the basic issue. He grasps the nature of the enemy. But he is so out of his depth – rhetorically, strategically, politically, intellectually – that it is hard to have much confidence in his leadership. This is one reason why I couldn’t endorse him for a second term. He is an incompetent. He is too incompetent to lead the West at this time. He is simply without the skills to navigate the very treacherous waters we are all now in. He is being outmaneuvered at every turn by wily enemies who are becoming more dangerous and emboldened by the day.

    Bush, in a word, is overwhelmed. He has no idea what to do except return to the catechism of freedom versus terror, like an ideological security blanket. Of course that it what this is about. The trouble is: freedom is being defended by the incompetent and the clueless. In Bush’s blank, bewildered eyes, you see the image of someone who is finally beginning to see reality. And it’s something with which he simply cannot cope. Our enemies, moreover, see the weakness in the president and they are ruthlessly exploiting it. And we have more than two years left to survive.

    ouch

  154. 154.

    CaseyL

    So Sully’s joined the chorus of pro-war pundits who say they “fear” a wider war? (But who are actually hopping up and down with glee at the prospect.)

    On the one hand, I find that very reassuring, because they’ve been wrong about everything else.

    On the other hand, it’s clear that the motley collection of neo- and theo-cons who’ve been pullling the Boy King’s strings all this time have wanted a WWIII all along.

    Now that we’re in a position where it would take courageous, intelligent and honest leadership to get out of the hideous mess Bush and his Svengalis have gotten us into – we instead have the Svengalis pushing us harder into the hideous mess.

    And we have the Right Wing punditocracy/blogosphere saying we should finish tossing aside the laws and mores of civilization built up so painfully over so many generations and centuries, and just wallow in mass murder.

    Bush and his ilk are standing proof that Mark Twain was right about God – as if any more proof was necessary.

  155. 155.

    Par R

    It looks as if tonight was another evening largely spent in a cesspool created by the usual Friday night assortment of mental halfwits and sadsack losers. Glad I missed it.

  156. 156.

    Darrell

    This is why conservatives are taken so much more seriously on foreign policy. They know that it’s way premature to talk about a cease-fire at 7:15, but it’s a great idea at 7:30!

    To recap Steve, you dishonest sack of shit, Slide blames Bush for not “ordering” Israel to cease fire immediately after they retaliated. I point out prevailing leftist idiocy of Slide and so many other liberals who from day 1 or 2, idiots that they are, they screamed over Israel’s “overreaction”, demanding a cease fire ‘treaty’ with the terrorists immediately. It was a classic liberal reaction. They are fools, and they’re virtually 100% from the left. After 1 1/2 weeks, Bush finally calls for a cease fire. That is the basis for your criticism? Not 15 minutes.. 1 1/2 weeks. Got it. And you whackjobs want to be trusted with national security?

    I didn’t think it was good idea at 1 day as demanded by liberals.. and I don’t think it’s necessarily good now.

  157. 157.

    Steve

    I’m just glad we waited those 15 minutes… to keep Hezbollah from regrouping and rearming

  158. 158.

    Darrell

    but the North Koreans were on more solid legal footing.

    Yes Perry, the North Koreans are on “solid” legal footing in breaking their treaty, even if it was made by hapless Dem fool Jimmah Carter. You truly believe deep down, as you have said, that “had Bush only renegotiated” with the whackjob N. Korean dictator, everything would be fine. Renegotiated ‘again’ that is, as they have already broken all their earlier promises. The sad thing is MOST of you leftist fools believe that. Only within the ‘reality based’ community is this kind of foreign policy idiocy taken seriously.

    A crazed dictator who has broken every promise he’s made… and leftist idiots tell us the solution is to “renegotiate” with him, blaming Bush for not “trusting” the N. Korean dictator in order to open a new ‘dialogue’. I think you libs are so wise and brilliant, that you should make that foreign policy idea the centerpiece of the Dem midterm election campaign. Run with it. These are the types of ideas that have ‘reality based’ written all over them.

  160. 160.

    Nutcutter

    if there’s any country in the world that should understand the nature of war against a guerrilla organization, it’s Israel. Wanting to give an enemy a bloody nose is one thing, but they can’t possibly have believed that an air campaign would do lasting damage to a broadly-supported indigenous guerrilla group like Hezbollah. Nor could they have seriously entertained the notion that they could bomb Beirut around the clock and create free-fire zones in southern Lebanon and still retain the sympathy of any substantial bloc of the Lebanese citizenry. Nor, having been the proximate cause of the rise of Hezbollah in the first place, could they have had any illusions about what effect a major war would ultimately have if it failed to utterly destroy its target.

    But apparently they did. And now they don’t know how to get out.

    Kevin Drum gets it right, as usual.

  161. 161.

    Nutcutter

    WASHINGTON (AFP) – US President George W. Bush said that he was “troubled” by the destruction Israeli strikes have left in Lebanon, but he rejected any “fake peace” that does not tackle the conflict’s root causes.

    See, you can’t make up material like that. What’s the main cause of war, which as some of you know, is about death and destruction? It’s peace.

    Beware of peace, that quiet time in between the episodes of death and destruction. The peace could be fake, which is why war will soon follow. Peace causes war.

  162. 162.

    Pb

    Darrell,

    Steve, you dishonest sack of shit

    Darrell, you ignorant slut.

    liberals who from day 1 or 2, idiots that they are, they screamed over Israel’s “overreaction”, demanding a cease fire ‘treaty’ with the terrorists immediately

    A quote for the day:

    “The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries which result gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of public liberty.

    Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight), the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it.

    It serves always to distract the public councils and enfeeble the public administration. It agitates the community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms, kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which finds a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another.

    There is an opinion that parties in free countries are useful checks upon the administration of the government and serve to keep alive the spirit of liberty. This within certain limits is probably true; and in governments of a monarchical cast, patriotism may look with indulgence, if not with favor, upon the spirit of party. But in those of the popular character, in governments purely elective, it is a spirit not to be encouraged. From their natural tendency, it is certain there will always be enough of that spirit for every salutary purpose. And there being constant danger of excess, the effort ought to be by force of public opinion, to mitigate and assuage it. A fire not to be quenched, it demands a uniform vigilance to prevent its bursting into a flame, lest, instead of warming, it should consume.

    It is important, likewise, that the habits of thinking in a free country should inspire caution in those entrusted with its administration, to confine themselves within their respective constitutional spheres, avoiding in the exercise of the powers of one department to encroach upon another. The spirit of encroachment tends to consolidate the powers of all the departments in one, and thus to create, whatever the form of government, a real despotism. A just estimate of that love of power, and proneness to abuse it, which predominates in the human heart, is sufficient to satisfy us of the truth of this position. The necessity of reciprocal checks in the exercise of political power, by dividing and distributing it into different depositaries, and constituting each the guardian of the public weal against invasions by the others, has been evinced by experiments ancient and modern; some of them in our country and under our own eyes. To preserve them must be as necessary as to institute them. If, in the opinion of the people, the distribution or modification of the constitutional powers be in any particular wrong, let it be corrected by an amendment in the way which the Constitution designates. But let there be no change by usurpation; for though this, in one instance, may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed. The precedent must always greatly overbalance in permanent evil any partial or transient benefit, which the use can at any time yield.” — Washington’s Farewell Address, 1796

  163. 163.

    Perry Como

    Yes Perry, the North Koreans are on “solid” legal footing in breaking their treaty

    “more solid”, halfwit. Read Yoo’s book. Wait, have you read Yoo’s book? Do you actually read any of the material that the supporters — even the legal counsel — of this administration writes? Or do you just spout terms like moonbat?

    Don’t answer any of those questions. They are rhetorical at this point.

  164. 164.

    Slide.

    After 1 1/2 weeks, Bush finally calls for a cease fire. That is the basis for your criticism? Not 15 minutes.. 1 1/2 weeks. Got it. And you whackjobs want to be trusted with national security?

    errrr… yeah. Partially anyway. When innocent civilians are getting killed by the scores most nations called for a cease fire. Not Bush/Rise. They made it clear they were giving the green light to Israel to continue the death and destruction. Why? Well, I guess they thought that Israel was going to be able to wipe out Hezbolla in a week or two. Well, that ain’t going to happen. As a matter of fact as long as this goes on Hezbolla gets stronger. Oh, yeah Israel will kill more Hezbolla members but Hezbolla is a lot more than the men fighting in South Lebanon – it is an ideology, it is a movement. They are now being made to be heros across the Muslim world because they are fighting Israel to a draw.

    So, lets recap, the extra couple of weeks that bush gave Israel has only served to turn public opinion in favor of Hezbolla, made them stronger, showed that Israel’s military strength has limits (kinda like Iraq) and put the USA firmly in the corner of Israel rather than the “honest broker” position we have had in the past. Its counterproductive. It hurts our “war on terror”. When are you morons on the right going to truly understand this “war”. Its not about killing individual enemies that are easily replaced, its about changing people’s opinions in the Muslim world so they are less likely to be our enemy. Its a war of ideas and our Commander in Chief is a very very limited man in that regard.

  165. 165.

    Slide.

    More evidence of how the Bush/Rise non call for a cease fire is working out:

    The percentage of Lebanese in a recent poll who think that the US is an honest broker and has a place in Lebanese affairs has fallen from nearly 40 percent last January to 10 percent today. Lebanon was supposed to be the Bush administration’s success story. All has turned to ashes.

    As for the Israeli hope of getting the Lebanese to turn on Hizbullah, that doesn’t seem to be working out very well. 87 percent of the Lebanese expressed support for Hizbullah’s retaliatory attacks on northern Lebanon. 70 percent supported Hizbullah’s capture of Israeli troops to force Israel to release Lebanese prisoners. Support for this move actually rose to a clear majority even among Christians. Only the Druze among Lebanese ethnic/religious communities mostly disapproved (they are 6 percent of the population). 63 percent expect Hizbullah to be victorious over Israel.

    ahhh.. yes… winning the hearts and minds.

  166. 166.

    Slide.

    more on the unintended consequences of the Bush/Rice/Ohmert war on Hezbolla:

    Revered by the Shia, respected by his enemies, he has already earned the distinction of being the only Arab leader to evict Israel from Arab land without having to sign a peace treaty. But he is also a religious warrior. Today, as he fights a lopsided military battle against the Jewish state, he is becoming an icon — not just in the Arab world, where he was already a hero, but in the umma, the world of Islam. Nasrallah’s war is not just a war between Lebanon and Israel, or even between Iran and America’s allies; it’s a war of myths and images, a battle to transform the Arab and Islamic worlds. Whatever battlefield setbacks Hezbollah may suffer in Lebanon, on this larger stage, Nasrallah has already won.

  167. 167.

    VidaLoca

    Darrell says:

    To recap Steve, [noise]. Slide blames Bush for not “ordering” Israel to cease fire immediately after they retaliated. I point out [noise…noise]. After 1 1/2 weeks, Bush finally calls for a cease fire. That is the basis for your criticism? Not 15 minutes.. 1 1/2 weeks. [standard boilerplate noise].

    I didn’t think it was good idea at 1 day as demanded by liberals.. and I don’t think it’s necessarily good now.

    Fair enough — although Bush changed his position on the ceasefire from being against having one “too soon” (2-1/2 weeks ago) to being for one now, if you’re still against having one now you’re at least being consistent. What’s that “necessarily” about though? Maybe it is good, maybe it isn’t? On what does the “necessarily” hinge?

    The more interesting question, though, is why did Bush change his position — and the three comments by Slide above provide the answer: the IDF has no experience fighting a skilled, organized, and heavily dug-in opponent; Hezbollah was fighting the IDF to a draw and still firing dozens of missiles into Israel. So now it’s time for a cease-fire. But why would Hezbollah be eager for a cease-fire that would allow the IDF time to re-arm, re-group, and re-organize?

  168. 168.

    demimondian

    Who is this Darrell person, anyway? I’ve modified Perry Como’s antitroll script to work in IE, and maybe that has something to do with it, but…I don’t see anyone named “Darrell”. Did I miss something?

  169. 169.

    Darrell

    What’s that “necessarily” about though? Maybe it is good, maybe it isn’t? On what does the “necessarily” hinge?

    My apologies, I thought it went without saying that no one has perfect knowledge in this conflict. Liberal knee jerk reaction was to demand and immediate cease fire as soon as Isreal retaliated. Those leftists are unrepetent fools who never learn, and a reminder why the left in the country cannot be trusted with national security.

    But how much retaliation is “enough” to make Israel safe for the ‘foreseeable’ future? Who can know this? You seem to pretend you do Vida. Hence my use of the words “not necessarily”.

    IDF has no experience fighting a skilled, organized, and heavily dug-in opponent

    Wow, and you want to be taken seriously, right? Let me ask you naive leftists something – why do you think the Israelis, with one of the best trained, best equipped and toughest armies on the planet, have made such a point to tell the news agencies about how “tough” the Hezbollah forces are? “Toughest ever faced” by Israelis forces is what the Israelis recently said. If Hezbollah forces were really so tough, do you think the Israelis would trumpet that assessment? Or are they playing psychological games with the arab mindset? I don’t know for sure, but unlike the leftists here, I’m not pretending to.

    I know independent thinking is not a trait common to leftists who react with knee jerk emotionalism, but try and think for yourselves independent of leftwing talking points. Asking yourself honest questions about why each side does what it does when it does is a good place to start.

  170. 170.

    Darrell

    They made it clear they were giving the green light to Israel to continue the death and destruction. Why? Well, I guess they thought that Israel was going to be able to wipe out Hezbolla in a week or two.

    Yes, I’m sure the Bush admin really thought that the Israelis could “wipe out” Hezbollah in a couple of weeks. Get a grip on reality

    Well, that ain’t going to happen. As a matter of fact as long as this goes on Hezbolla gets stronger

    That’s a leftist mantra repeated endlessly over and over. Don’t fight adn kill the terrorists, it “only makes them stronger”. Another reminder why the left can NEVER be trusted with our national security.

  172. 172.

    Perry Como

    Don’t fight adn kill the terrorists, it “only makes them stronger”. Another reminder why the left can NEVER be trusted with our national security.

    1. They agree with Trotsky on permanent revolution, violent as well as intellectual.
    2. They are for redrawing the map of the Middle East and are willing to use force to do so.
    3. They believe in preemptive war to achieve desired ends.
    6. They are not bashful about an American empire; instead they strongly endorse it.
    10. They believe neutrality in foreign affairs is ill-advised.
    11. They hold Leo Strauss in high esteem.
    12. They believe imperialism, if progressive in nature, is appropriate.
    13. Using American might to force American ideals on others is acceptable. Force should
    not be limited to the defense of our country.
    14. 9-11 resulted from the lack of foreign entanglements, not from too many.
    15. They dislike and despise libertarians (therefore, the same applies to all strict constitutionalists.)
    17. They unconditionally support Israel and have a close alliance with the Likud Party.

    It looks like Ron Paul has Darrell pegged. Of course, Ron Paul is an unhinged leftist that isn’t serious about national security. Strong. Smart.

  173. 173.

    Jim Allen

    demi’s script for IE is posted here. It requires Turnabout.

    I have successfully installed the script for both IE and Firefox. The Asshat Formerly Known as Darrell is now blocked. My blood pressure has lessened considerably.

    Perry and Demi rock.

  174. 174.

    Pb

    Darrell,

    Another reminder why the left can NEVER be trusted with our national security.

    Look, man, you know I don’t take you seriously, and how can I, given the things you say. But this is deadly serious. And when it comes to the Republicans at the top who you enable, I do take what they say seriously, because no matter how bone-headed they may seem, the fact remains that they do have a ton of power in this country:

    Bush Submits New Terror Detainee Bill

    U.S. citizens suspected of terror ties might be detained indefinitely and barred from access to civilian courts under legislation proposed by the Bush administration, say legal experts reviewing an early version of the bill.

    This is beyond ridiculous–it’s unconstitutional, and it’s unamerican. From this day forward–that’s it, this will not stand. Your party is now nothing more than a party of seditious fascist traitors to their country, that is all they stand for now. So Darrell, you’re either with America, or you’re with the fascists. If The Constitution actually means anything to you, then you’ll see the error of your ways.

    But I for one am never supporting any party that could even come up with something like this. GOP, you’re dead to me. You are not conservative, and you are no longer even American. If George Washington was here today, he’d probably be forced to declare war on these bastards, just to uphold the rule of law.

  176. 176.

    VidaLoca

    Darrell,

    But how much retaliation is “enough” to make Israel safe for the ‘foreseeable’ future?

    NO amount of retaliation is strong enough to make Israel, or any other state/nation/actor there, safe for the foreseeable future. After 60 years of cyclical provocation, retaliation, atrocity, and self-justification — lather, rinse, repeat — on both sides has anyone in that part of the world won any meaningful degree of safety for any foreseeable future?

    Wow, and you want to be taken seriously, right? Let me ask you naive leftists something – why do you think the Israelis, with one of the best trained, best equipped and toughest armies on the planet, have made such a point to tell the news agencies about how “tough” the Hezbollah forces are? “Toughest ever faced” by Israelis forces is what the Israelis recently said. If Hezbollah forces were really so tough, do you think the Israelis would trumpet that assessment? Or are they playing psychological games with the arab mindset? I don’t know for sure, but unlike the leftists here, I’m not pretending to.

    Yes you are — you just did!

    The Israeli military mysteriously and suddenly pulled out of the far-south town of Bint Jbeil on Saturday, after a hard-fought battle to take the town of 30,000 that cost the lives of 8 Israeli troops last Wednesday alone. Naharnet says, “On Friday, the Israeli army said seven of its soldiers were wounded, including one seriously, when Hizbullah fighters attacked a ridge overlooking Bint Jbeil and the nearby village of Maroun al-Ras. ” It appears to be the case that the Israelis were over-confident and have been taking much higher casualties than they had been prepared for, and so withdrew lest the casualties mount, until they figured out what to do about Hizbullah’s tactics.

    cite: Juan Cole, more here

  177. 177.

    Darrell

    NO amount of retaliation is strong enough to make Israel, or any other state/nation/actor there, safe for the foreseeable future

    Our retaliation against Japan in WWII certainly made us safer. Israel’s retaliation in previous conflicts certainly was key factor in persuading the govts of Egypt and Jordan not to attack them further. In fact, aggresive retaliation is how countres always have defeated enemies and won peace. What kind of nonsense is that.. claiming NO amount of retaliation can make a country safe? More irrational leftist babble

  178. 178.

    Darrell

    cite: Juan Cole, more here

    As if Juan “Israel’s indiscriminate bombings war crimes” Cole has a shred of credibility. Do you feel like dumbass today seeing Isreali tanks and soldiers in control of Bint Jbeil after middle east “expert” Juan cole told you to believe the exact opposite?

  179. 179.

    scs

    What I find strange is the Arab world going crazy over 50 civilians dead, yet Sunni terrorist groups fairly regularly kill 50 civilians a day in Iraq, mostly Shia, with market place bombs and such, and I see no riots from anyone. Not even the Shia riot for their own people. Strange.

    Anyway, the whole thing is ridiculous because Hezbollah has been hurling hundreds of rockets a day into Israel as well. The only reason they haven’t killed 50 Israelis is because they missed, not for lack of trying. So double standard, again. I think for whatever reason, the people of the Middle East have a lessened ability to hold an unbiased argument in mind. Perhaps the place will improve over time with better nutrition and health care for the people. (See recent NYT article on the subject of improving global human health and IQ). Otherwise I see much more of this for years to come.

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