If this is the sort of competence that we get from Democratic campaigns then I refuse to expect much from the next administration. In a different time I might weigh my options, but as long as the present management hangs on you would have to waterboard me to vote Republican. A shit sandwich looks quite edible when the alternative is a drano enema.
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I’m starting to feel like Obama is doing everything he can to convince me to vote for someone else in the primary, and I’m getting a little tired of it.
Atrios makes the point that there is no Social Security crisis very well. I agree 100 percent. Hoo-rah.
But no one has demonstrated that Obama is pushing a Social Security Crisis message for his candidacy.
We caught him using the phrase “Social Security Crisis” in an interview. That may not be our prefferred framing, but it’s an easy mistake to make. Obama wants Hilary to reveal her intentions on this issue. What’s wrong with that? Nothing. Hilary could turn on a dime and announce a centrist plan that screws SS. She could wait till the general. It wouldn’t surprise me at all.
We’re getting tied down in a relatively silly debate about language when we should be evaluating “what are the candidates going to do about Social Security?”
If Obama is planning to introduce a plan that privatizes or cuts SS, then you’ll have a case against him. Right now, this is trivia. It shows some minor insensitivity to language wars. Really, that’s not the end of the world.
Stop building a case against Obama on this weak hand, please.
Not too many people left worth voting for. I’m almost starting to like the idea of electing Ron Paul and just letting him go nuclear on this whole system
Glasnost is right about the “social security crisis” thing. This is gotcha commentary, Tim, unless we see some evidence that Obama is actually going to push the meme.
That said, the Obama candidacy in general is not working very well. I attribute it to lack of experience at the national campaign level, but whatever it is, it’s a signal that he may not be ready for this step. Not sure.
I say this having been on record on these pages a year or more ago as saying that he was my favorite in the field. I don’t make that assertion any more.
I like Obama…he has the JFK charisma thing, but he does seem green. His wife is awesome.
He could be president someday…there’s just a feeling of not ready I get from him. Which could be utterly the way news gets presented. Or the way he says things that comes out wrong. Again, the media loves to chew up Dems and spit them out..it makes for good copy.
Here in Iowa, this theme is prominent in his TV Ads. I agree that this is not a great subject to run on and plays into the Republicans (the “Wall Street kind”) theme.
Hopefully he stops this and moves on to something more important to the public.
Ineresting. It’s some kind of calculation. Maybe they think that taking the issue head on is a smart preemptive move. Maybe they figure (rightly, I’d guess) that Dems don’t know the technicals of the issue any better than the Republicans do, and are trying to appeal to the Dem warmth toward the whole social security subject. Maybe they think they can find a theme that shuts down the Republican lie machine on the subject.
The (political) problem with SS is that the people have been consistently lied to by both parties for so long, there is deep cynicism out there.
The Clinton thing: Can’t say I’m surprised.
The Obama thing: Uh. Who cares?
Every objection I’ve heard to Obama (from people who aren’t batshit crazy) seems to be of the “OMG! He said X when he could have said Y! Hez 2 [email protected]!” variety.
Perhaps I’ve been hardened by seven years of Bush League Gibberish used to convey ideas that are even more insane than the disjointed way they are uttered, but my alarm bells can’t be rung by the use of the word “crisis” unless it’s being used to lie up a war or justify suspending bits of the Constitution.
Apparently, there is now definitive proof that Clinton did not lie about the tip. The manager of the restaurant acknowledges the tip was paid on the credit card and he did not disburse the tip to his staff.
The Clinton Brouhaha over the tip was much-ado about nothing. Any campaign is going to make an error somewhere, with the media spotlight on Clinton it will be highlighted, and that’s about as trivial as they get (alright, maybe not as trivial as Edward’s haircut).
Obama’s comments on social security bother me more; not because I think he’d ever do anything against social security, but because it makes me think he hasn’t learned about the right wing works in the last six years. Hillary Clinton’s strongest selling point to me is after being in the fire, she gets it. I trust her to fight back against Swift Boats or whatever else the opposition comes up with. Obama with his talk of reconciliation? I’m not so sure.
They need to respond better, regardless. “We tipped, and it’s ridiculous you would even bother frothing at the mouth about this stuff while there’s a war and serious issues to discuss”.
Of course, as Bob Somersby has pointed out, that will just incense the press and they’ll gin up some new scandal. The press hates being talked back to. All they care about is scoop and access.
What makes this even worse is that this week the Republican front-runner, who is running in large part on how he supposedly reduced crime in New York, had his fucking police commissioner indicted on corruption charges. Way to dominate the headlines at the wrong time.
Agree that it is a stupid story and I’d dismiss it as not worth thinking about BUT for their even more stupid response. The right response would have been “Oh Lord, did we not tip? I thought we agreed that campaign staffer X would leave $100 for all of us—no? We are so, so sorry. It was an oversight. We’ll look into it.” We’ll give you $100 now while we look into it.”
It never seems to occur to them that it’s easier to forgive an apparent mistake than a seeming (even if only seeming) lie.
It’s terrifying that we’ve trained our representatives that it’s better to risk looking like a fibber than to apologize for a mistake. They’re like children. By spanking people as ruthlessly for obvious missteps as deliberate acts of irresponsibility/venality, we’ve TRAINED them to fib. So now we never know what to believe.
The problem with your comparison, sir, is that your shit sandwich might be someone else’s drano enema.
You must be the master of giving the benefit of the doubt. Personally I think they LIE because they’re greedy, power hungry, lying liars who can’t stop lying and even if they could they probably wouldn’t. Dishonesty is a choice that our politicians on “both”(there’s really only one) sides of the aisle make on a continual basis.
I have a serious question. America is on the edge of economic ruin and in the midst of moral degradation that rivals any despotic nation in history and we’re talking about social security and abortion. Why?
The reason our politicians are COMPLETELY IGNORING the most important issue facing America today is because they fucking agree about the direction were headed in. The silence itself is evidence.
Wingnut response: “OMG! HITLERY’Z HANDING OUT BRIBES!!”
Can we go back to drawing diagrams of the trajectory a Bradley would have to take to squash a dog?
Re tip: I think it’s time for a big round of WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE???
I saw the Kos rebuttal-to-spin-of-accusation-of-tiplessness thread and right now I wouldn’t mind never seeing another Kos thread again.
I DON’T CARE if the candidate SPITS on waitresses as long as they can get the political/war situation under control, STOP us torturing and bombing the shit out of people for trumped-up stupid reasons, and give us a controlled economic crash instead of the nuclear meltdown we’re rocketing towards.
I DON’T CARE if they look good, or re-electable, while doing it, and in fact I don’t care if they secretly love the idea of presiding over a Bush-esque junta as long as they can be prevented from actually doing so.
Torture stops, now. Goes off the table. Godlike presidential privilege, private armies at the disposal of the President, stops now. Attempts to invade more countries stop, now.
I don’t care if the next President is a complete asshole as long as they are man enough to be holding the bag when all these shoes start to drop. WE ARE NOT GOING TO WIN THIS. Thanks to Bush’s catastrophes in all directions we are going to suffer, and we have already done enough moral damage to have obliterated any pretensions we had about being the world’s moral beacon. What we need now is a very tough, practical man who’s so in love with the power of the presidency that they’ll willingly grapple with all the hopeless, losing situations they inherit, and be ruthlessly pragmatic about dismantling the damage Bush caused, even though this guarantees a bad showing and loads of bad PR. Because NO adult, responsible person could possibly do otherwise- we can’t have our country back, it’s dead and just hasn’t fallen over. But we can have a President man enough to face up to reality knowing how bad it is, and powermad enough to accept and love the job even though it’s set up to fail.
And I say Hillary Clinton is that man :D
The only thing is that we have to be damn sure she IS forced to do things like stop torture, more invasions, etc. and do the Clintonesque work of practical rebuilding. She can’t have the economic and political success of Bill, but she can at least give us a tolerable decline rather than a fucking cliff face collapse, and there is nobody I trust more to do that. Thank goodness not all our pols are like her, but anyone more idealistic would try to do good, and the situation is definitely damage control. Give Hil one term and let her take the heat, and let the wingnuts frantically try and strip away the executive-power structures they themselves encouraged, and we’ll see where we go from there.
Damn, I want Hillary in there NOW. We need a cast-iron bitch giving orders, we need the whole Blue state crowd compelling her to give decent orders like ‘no more torture or invasions’, and we need the whole Red state crowd keeping her honest-ish and forcing her to let go of the special privileges like commanding National Guard units as the Executive branch’s police force. And maybe they can blame the Blackwater-esque prison camps dotting America on HER and get rid of them before they’re used…
Tips for waitresses. FEH.
Me too. I’m halfway seriously thinking of voting for him in the primary as a FU to both parties.
This kind of crap is all about the concept of “dynamite in the distance,” which is the whole point of the GOP noise machine.
It’s explained very well here.
Seriously. Where’s Admiral Stockdale at? I’d vote for that dude in a second. (No, I don’t care if he’s dead.)
As for Tipgate…for fuck’s sake, people. Just stop it. Does the entire country have to turn into fucking third-graders every four years?
The Other Steve
But apparently getting a $400 haircut is ok, and it’s totally unreasonable for people to talk about it.
I agree. Still would never, ever vote for Hillary. Of course I live in California, so I could vote for Dubby again and a dem will get our electoral votes.
Why will I not vote for Hillary?
1) Bush Clinton Bush Clinton (again)? Since I’ve been able to vote, either a Bush or a Clinton has been on the ballot. Country needs some fresh blood beyond those two families.
2) I don’t trust Hillary. All that you mentioned Chris? I don’t see Hillary changing a goddamn thing. She waffles when it comes to Iraq and ending the war. All those executive power Doodads that Bush has grabbed over the past 8 years? I don’t see her giving those back either.
Obama’s a bit better, Dodd I really like and Edwards…dunno if I’m sold on him as “Mr. Populist”
This is one I never understood…dude’s got money, who cares how he spends it. Why this rubbed people the wrong way I don’t understand.
SA2SQ Vol. I’ve lost count.
The bigger question is how that display of wealth bothered the same people who readily ignored the fact that the so-called simple, folksy, good ole boy is in fact an oil-soaked Yaler.
The Other Steve
And besides that, the fonts and kerning are all wrong!
The Other Steve
It’s a ridiculous sum to pay for a hair cut.
Says you. It’s his money. If he wants to blow it on a haircut, big deal.
I’m about to drop $4k on a microphone, wife thinks that’s ridiculous.
Less wealthy people spend far greater sums of money on less functional things than a haircut(especially for a public figure), and quite frankly I don’t think it’s any of anyones fucking business.
Steve has always been very particular about the amount his presidents are willing to spend on haircuts.
Who wants a pretty-boy president? Or for that matter, a girl?
If Hillary fails as a presidential candidate, she could be a good hire for FEMA. I heard she knows how to handle a press conference, too.
No, it’s a ridiculous sum to pay for a BJ, when Bill proves you can get them for free.
If you want a good haircut, even politicians have to pay.
I hear that Hillary! and Edwards use Charmin toilet paper! Damn rich people can’t use cheap paper towels like us poor people do.
I mean, come on people! $5.00 for a package of toilet paper?! That just goes to show you how they are out of touch with the real world we live in.
What, people dying in Iraq and our government is swimming in red ink? That pales in comparison to using Charmin and getting $400.00 hair cuts. Boy are your priorities ever screwed up!
Does the above sound Republican enough for you people? ;)
Lefties sure love them some profanity don’t they. If you don’t say “f*ck” or “sh*t” people might not take you seriously. /sarc
Psycheout, Cheney can drop the F-bomb in the Senate and you want to poke fun at them libruls using swear words on the intertubes?
Boy, you flighty righties sure have your priorities in line! Oh, right. IOKIYAR. Gotcha.
The foaming at the mouth right at RedState are in a blather about Hillary! having planted questions in her audience.
How about Bush having complete planted audiences? I think the reason they are harping on this is that it was originally their idea, and now that the left is doing the same thing they have to harp on it like it is a new, sneaky tactic.
BFD. I am no idiot. If any politician is getting asked softball questions, I know that the reporter or questioner is a shill.
This from a bunch of idiots who support an administration who has phony reporters, phony FEMA conferences and more.
The extreme right must have an average IQ of 17. Ok, I am being generous there.
Don’t forget she also killed Kathleen Willey’s kitty-kat.
Will the outrage never cease?
Oh, I just assumed you’d left out a decimal point.
Wait a minute–is this significantly different from Al Gore ending up with the presidency? Hillary Clinton is no more related to Bill Clinton than Gore is. She is a Rodham, who ended up taking the name Clinton to appease the traditionalists. Concern about a repeated name is a silly basis for choosing who gets your vote. Maybe you’re concerned about her political connections with Bill Clinton? Then any former vice-president should be looked with the same concerns. She is not Bill Clinton’s offspring, so calling it a dynasty is really not accurate, and is also denying her her own separate identity.
I’m still not sure what I think of her, or whether I trust her, but I want to decide based on evidence, not prejudice. I just found this site, which has some interesting information–I suggest y’all check it out.
If you want to decide on evidence, head over to the Great Orange Satan to read what this person collected on Hillary’s earmarks and campaign donors. I saw this a few ago and thought it was interesting.
I checked your link, and voting records are not a sole (or good) indicator of a track record, IMO. Congress critters like to be coy with certain votes, and this depends on what the bill is, if it stands a chance of passing (or going down) and other strategic considerations that are made prior to casting a vote. It is not cut and dried just on the votes cast.
The corporate label on Hillary hangs there because she looks like a corporate insider to many. Her earmark and campaign contributions list is not pretty either, IMO.
Yes, I saw that too–but is that record really much different from the others’? I’m skeptical about this ‘corporate shill’ label because it seems like she’s being singled out on the subject. And weren’t much the same things said about Al Gore in 2000? I would love to see significantly more distance between our politicians and corporate power, but I don’t think it’s going to happen any time soon, and in the meantime I don’t want to reject an otherwise competent candidate for a realpolitik stance that is shared by everyone else in the game. After all the stupidity, extremism, incompetence and corruption of the current administration, I’m looking for the best candidate to get us back on track. I don’t want to get distracted dreaming about castles in Spain. I’ll support whichever Dem gets the nomination, and until then I don’t want to rip on any of them, or repeat any right-wing myths–it weakens the whole party. As I said, I’m still making up my mind about Clinton, but I really don’t think she’s that bad. “Not ideal” does not equal “evil” or “Bush-lite.”
See, the right wing understands that to win the war, you have to win some battles, even if not the full war all in one shot. How do you think they’ve gotten 5 conservative supreme court justicies?
Hillary’s no perfect liberal, but she’s 100000000000000 times better than GW & Cheney and the current crop of Republicans. I’m fine with arguing during primary season about who the Dem. nominee should be (whether it’s to see someone else besides Hillary win or just to express issue preference). But once the nominee is chosen, just fucking vote for them.
You can push them to the left once they’re in office. Make them beholden to you, like the right-wing does with everyone with an “R” next to their name.
Why can’t anyone who’s a Democrat get this?
Because it has been proven again and again that pushing them anywhere once they are in office is next to impossible. Might as well try for world peace or building a bridge to the moon.
Also, I am not a Democrat. I used to be one before 1993, and have been an independent since. I am not the only voter who is pissed off at both parties, check the polls. Party identification among voters is dying off as more voters get sick of the status quo and realize that being a member of the party that sucks less really is not that good of a deal either.
I really hope Gore enters the race or Dodd wins the nod, because that is the only way I can see myself voting Democrat next year. Who knows, I may change my mind as the date approaches. But right now, nope. No sale.
Run Al run! Please!!!!!!!
Who the hell cares about whether they left a tip? Is this an issue deserving consideration? No.
In a two party system, once you have your slate of candidates, you vote for the slate. If that is not the objective, then the two-party system really serves no purpose and should be abolished … except for one little thing, which is that power, like water, will seek its level, and re-create the two party system again because it’s the most efficient expression of machine politics so far invented in a liberal democracy.
And when one of your two parties is a beast bent on destruction of the core principles of your country, you sure as HELL vote for the other party’s people when you get the chance, and you keep doing it until the beast is broken and sent packing.
IOW, vote Democrat until the GOP beast is dead.
The Other Steve
You guys prove my point for me. $400 haircut =totally reasonable
Forgetting to leave a tip = OMG! She’s unsuitable to be President!
Pathetic losers you are
The faux tip scand-ahl is just icing on the already 7-layer cake.
This is one of the hardest things to convince my well-meaning but misguided very liberal friends (to the left of me, not hard to find in Seattle area).
They are so entranced with liberal Utopian visions that they persist on thinking Dems are only mildly better than Republicans. Perhaps that would be true if you were running Republicans circa 1976 vs Democrats circa 2006. But we’re not. It’s the Revalations-driven gay-hating torture lovers vs. a party full of rational imperfect people. No contest.
Voting for a third party isn’t just a protest vote in these times, it’s a vote to keep these people in power. And political parties can be changed from within. It takes time, but it works. The Republican party has moved steadily to the right for 30 years, but it’s done so in fits and starts, and never as fast as the right-wingers wanted. Try to compare (as John Cole and other former “conservatives” have) the whole Goldwater-era Republicans and today’s Republicans. Sure there were crazy wingers back then, but they were the fringe. Now they dominate the party – it’s as if the Texas GOP platform (google it) is now the guiding principles of the national Republican party as well. It took an entire generation of activists at a local, state and federal level to achieve even some of what Republicans wanted.
The whole right-wing change of the Supreme Court, the ascendancy of Fox News, “legal” legitimization of torture, demonization of media, etc. are a direct result of that 30 years of pressure.
People on the left need to learn the lesson. It’s not a one time shoot-the-moon deal. It’s push, push, push, push and eventually you get some of what you want. Taking your ball and going home is just childish (as I’ve said before) and more importantly, totally ineffective.
I’m getting nearly as irritated reading the comments at the GOS as I do reading the ones at Red State. Although actually the latter’s comments are truly sickening and frightening, not just irritating, so it’s comparing apples and oranges, or a head cold and the bubonic plague, but still…the Kossaks seem ever more determined to channel the circle-jerk wing of the Left.
Which is odd considering Markos’ political centrism and pragmatism. Sure, he gets angry at Dems, but it’s not for being insufficiently liberal/perfect – but for caving in to Republicans.
Proof positive that the surest disqualification for office is campaigning for it in the first place.