Today at Red State we learn that Bill Kristol isn’t really a conservative:
I knew the moment I found out he was having dinner with Obama that this would happen. A batted eye lash, a smile, and a shared meal gets you pretty damn far with Bill Kristol. Never mind that despite posing as a conservative for years, Kristol has been anything but a real conservative.
In a sense, I agree. I have been saying for a few years now that these folks aren’t very conservative at all. That didn’t stop Red State and the Republicans from claiming them when they were beating those evil Dems, though, did it? I just can’t wait until they realize the government interfering in your life because of what your God says isn’t conservative, either. That should be fun.
Victory has a thousand fathers…
Comrade Luke
If they’re not conservative what are they? Opportunists?
Ugh
I think you should have titled this post the same as the last one, as said title applies just as well to Erick Erickson and Bill Kristol.
demimondian
Umm…sorry, John, no I won’t let you off the hook on this one.
It *is* consevative — it adheres to the traditions and history of our culture and polity. That is the essence of conservatism, and I’m afraid you’re stuck with it.
Robin G.
You know, thanks, but no thanks. I think we can do without Bill Kristol in our camp.
Bubblegum Tate
So what’s the Trike Force gonna do about this?
Robin G.
@demimodian: Sort of depends on the definition of conservative, doesn’t it? The paleocon definition is pretty much libertarian with some other stuff thrown in. I agree with you that the God people are conservative in the sociological sense.
WyldPirate
Comrade Luke @1
Assholes seems more fitting….
cleek
sadly, i can’t see RedState. according to the error i get, they’ve apparently misconfigured their "bannage" plugin.
so, not only are they idiotic politically, they’re also retarded technologically.
someone needs to tell them about the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, though.
Lev
At some point–it might actually coincided with the election of George W. Bush–conservatism ceased to be a philosophy that traced its roots back to Edmund Burke and became nothing more than a "f*** you, liberal bastards" attitude. It was an inevitable (though delayed) consequence of Nixon’s Southern Strategy. The South has never been much on principled conservatism.
D. Mason
Well the beautiful part about labels like liberal and conservative is that they always mean just what the speaker/writer intends them to mean. That’s also why they’re practically useless for having a serious conversation about politics.
JenJen
I think an argument could be made that blustering neocons aren’t "real" conservatives.
But only in the sense that Northern Virginia isn’t "real" Virginia, you know? ;-)
Comrade Luke
BTW, according to NRO Kristol’s just moving his column to the Post.
Zifnab
Oh yeah? Well, Red State is a pack of gay communist muslims. Cause they’ve been acting like it. So… yeah! Take that!
The Other Steve
It seems to me Erickson is starting right off the bat with the wrong attitude.
He thinks the only way for Conservatives to succeed is for Obama to fail. The Rush Limbaugh mentality. The Zero-sum mentality.
Maybe that’s the core problem with conservatives.
But politics isn’t about winning or losing elections. It’s about expressing your ideas and influencing change.
Face
I’m awaiting instructions on just where to send this Silly Putty.
J.D. Rhoades
Ah, the purges and Purity Wars continue. Excellent. As the saying goes, "never interfere with your opponent while he is busy destroying himself. "
The Other Steve
Conservatism at it’s core is about pissing off liberals.
TenguPhule
And defeat is quietly aborted in the womb, then blamed on the evil liberal culture.
TenguPhule
I have never gotten over the irony of a conservative website named after the Soviets and run like Pol Pot’s little fiefdom.
Keith
You know the big tent of the GOP has officially become a newspaper you hold over your head when Bill F. Kristol is deemed by the wing to no longer be a "conservative".
Cruel Jest
I’m so fucking tired of that carousel. [Whoever] is the best thing to happen to the Republican Party since Reagan, until it turns out that they are morons, and suddenly they only failed so miserably because they weren’t conservative enough. You wait. They’ll run Palin in 2012, she will fail, and they’ll call her a RINO.
They are immune to irony, consequence, and logic. How they prospered for so long is something I don’t like to think about. Those were bad years. Bad.
Comrade javafascist
Most entertaining about all of this Red State purge nonsense has been the endless newspaper articles and commentaries discussing the seemingly unrepairable rifts in the various Conservative factions especially after years of reading about the GOP message discipline and those crazy, unorganized Democrats..oh wait.Forgot I was tripping on acid again and that none of that actually happened (nor will it ever.)
Sirkowski
Wasn’t Kristol a Marxist or a Trotskist when he was young?
J.D. Rhoades
Consider this stolen.
Andrew
I thought it was about denying their own repressed homosexuality.
Cain
@The Other Steve:
Traitorous pigs. They should go and start their own country somewhere and they can have the christian equivalent of Saudi Arabia. In fact the ultimate would be to take over Golan Heights or something so all three religions can start going after each other as God probably intended.
I find the idea of ideology over country to be disgusting. That they would put themselves over their own country who is right now in trouble is simply beyond the pale. Wankers.
cain
p.a.
Authoritarians.
Exactly. Interesting theory I read many years ago that the South’s hyperpatriotism is a counter reaction to the stain of treason from the attempt to destroy the union. Not that any Southern partisan would ever accept the word ‘treason’ as relating to the Civil War, and not that I really like psychoanalysis of whole populations, but it is an interesting idea.
And any relations to Burkean ideas began withering with opposition to civil rights in 1963-’64, long before GWB. It was always about ‘the colored problem’ and looting the national wealth, with the ideological gibberish just window dressing.
Andrew
Many of the neocon right wing assholes were stupid left wing assholes in their youth. Their politics may change, but their assholery is astoundingly consistent.
eric
Red Staters never "prospered." They rode the coattails of an agglomeration of political factions run by opportunistic cynics who lined their own pockets at the expense of everyone else.
The Red State motto can be encapsulated "when we win we deserve to win, when we lose, we deserve to win."
At such a moment, i harken to one of favorite moments in cinema: Clint Eastwood is standing over Gene Hackman at the end of Unforgiven and Hackman says "I don’t deserve this," to which Eastwood responds "deserve’s got nothing to do with it." Then shoots Hackman in the face with a shotgun. "That" is my response to those whiny fake tough guy bullies at Red State.
The Grand Panjandrum
and gives birth to the Mother of all Denials.
stickler
Well, keep in mind that RedState set itself up to be the big force on the online Right. They were going to build a massive, grass-roots anti-Kos.
And how does Moe Lane achieve this vibrant synergy?
One word: "Blam!"
Brilliant, that.
Maus
Jeez, conservatives are all about the "no TRUE scots…" fallacy.
There is a vast amount of difference between the conservative ideal and the reality (as with libertarians, and most conservative dems running under the guise of liberalism…)
I can see a few liberals that care and have the capacity to do good, depressingly few but still more than one could find from conservative america.
John: You always sound so mournful of the death of your conservative ideals. I’m not entirely unsympathetic, having gone through similar in the past, but at what point do you move on? Cut the grieving process off? Get more comfortable with the distance between reality and the fantasy sold to us through the media outlets and "infotainment" racket?
Tsulagi
Yeah, even Commander E.E. when he isn’t too busy zeroing in his silly putty on the range can unintentionally get something right.
Nope. Or even if there’s any chance of doing so. Before he secured the nomination, future rough RSSF enlistees at the ready stepped over each other to pound their breasts loudest swearing they’d cut off their right arm before pulling a lever for McCain.
A few months later, and especially after Mav picked Sarah of Wasilla who those serious adults see as their Joan of Arc on a snowmobile with a moose antler grill, Erick titled one post “Awesome is made of McCain.” They loved them their Maverick.
Now two months after the election, apparently their right arms are once again in jeopardy if McCain is on a future ballot. They’re Country First stalwarts, that’s what they are.
amorphous
@p.a.: The South’s hyperpatriotism is nothing more than thinly veiled racism. No further psychoanalysis needed.
p.a.
Not sure about the current generation, but the root stock were. Interesting… the old Trotskyist idea was ‘boring from within’- gaining access and working within capitalist institutions and using them for socialist ends; building the new society within the shell of the old.
Was this the plan all along??!!! Mission Accomplished!!! Have those devious leftist bastards posed as conservatives lo! these 40 years, espousing buffoonish economic, social and military policies to bring down the USofA!!!???
Are Kristol and Krauthammer lighting up cigars as we speak? (er, type). Scoundrels.
AhabTRuler
Papa Irving "A neoconservative is a liberal who has been mugged by reality" Kristol was a Trotskyist in his youth, but then discovered that you got a better paycheck
spreadingexporting "democratic" revolution for the other side.Maus
Exactly. The problem with their politics wasn’t so much the wing of their politics but that they were shrill extremist assholes, incapable of rational thought or anything but the most childishly polarizing screeds.
Nuance is lost on them, so naturally the clueless media congloms trip over themselves to give them contracts. Short term attention over long-term viability and trust of the public, of course. If there’s one group they’re trying to win over, it’s the low-information voter that doesn’t read the NYT or the WaPo and spits on the "MSM" even more than we do (but for very different reasons.)
Grumpy Code Monkey
@Lev:
I think it was during Reagan’s first term when Republicans stopped thinking in terms of "how do we do what’s best for the country" and started thinking in terms of "how do we hurt the Democrats". Atwater and later on Gingrich took that ball and ran with it as far and as hard as they could.
Politics is easy. Policy is hard. Governing is really hard. The GOP has spent the last 20 years doing the easy shit, which is why we are where we are now.
Stooleo
As a peson who lives in the south, I would say that its not a reaction to treason, but to the fact that they lost the war. This has created an "us verses them" mentality that is pervasive in conservative southerners.
Maus
It’s not strange to think that the stench of overwhelming failure would turn a culture to anger easily over perceived slights to "honor" and responding with increasing anger to the slightest expression of humiliation.
Yep, they’re practically objectivists with the "fuck you, i’ve got mine!" execution of conservatism.
cleek
conservative talk radio probably has a lot to do with it. Limbaugh et al do nothing but whine and complain about liberals. they have nothing productive to say; they only moan. it’s the same culture of victimhood that gives us "the war on christmas" and "the liberal media" and "east cost ruling liberal elite" yadayadayada. nothing is ever their fault, it’s always the treacherous Other.
that’s what it means to be the Party of Responsibility.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@p.a.:
The (Old) South was always hyperpatriotic—it was just that they were more loyal to the state than to the Union. No one in the South of the 1800s felt that joining the United States had been a one way trip. Secession was never prohibited by the Constitution, and it wasn’t considered "traitorous" to leave the Union, just a final remedy for insoluble political differences.
Some states in the South had considered secession at least twice before: during the disputes about tarriffs, and during the 1830’s (?) when the US government was taking territory away from NC , TN, and GA to set aside a reservation for the Cherokee, while at the same time Northern indian tribes were being shipped west.
The notion of traitorous Southerners makes a good story, but the political situation was a lot more complicated than that.
demimondian
@Comrade Scrutinizer: Um…nonsense.
The big lie there is the claim that the South "believed" joining of the Union had been a two-way street. In fact, the South had frequently supported forcible reunification of secessionists in other regions (e.g. New England during the Embargo.) It’s a rewrite of history to claim otherwise.
Frank
Whenever conservative policies fail, Conservatives say that the policies and those who supported them or both were not conservative (or, alternatively, not "conservative enough.")
That’s a tradition as reliable as the failure of their policies.
(No, I will not get into a discussion of whether American conservatism is "conservative" or not. Hobbes died a long time ago and it is what it is.)
Hoosier X
If by "pissing off liberals," you mean "making liberals laugh out loud at conservative stupidity," then I must agree.
If you don’t like being ridiculed, don’t be ridiculous.
If conservatives expect any respect from sane and rational people, they do have some responsibility to come up with some ideas that are not so easy to mock.
ricky
When will they follow with:
Never mind that despite posing as an oil man for years, Bush has produced nothing but crusty core samples.
jake 4 that 1
Whereas Erick only needs a sharp order from a rough strong man.
Comrade Darkness
@demimondian: "Umm…sorry, John, no I won’t let you off the hook on this one.
It is consevative—it adheres to the traditions and history of our culture and polity. That is the essence of conservatism, and I’m afraid you’re stuck with it."
But it runs smack up against smaller, get-off-the-backs-of-, not-supposed-to-be-a-babysitter-to the people government. Now, I AM willing to believe that living happily in a permanent state of cognitive dissonance is a hallmark of conservatism…
J Royce
Right wing "Conservatism" is code for class society.
Liberalism is simply the belief in individual rights and equality.
Yes these terms get all smeary and are too-often used for whatever a speaker wants it to mean, but the basic historical reality is there for all to see. Liberalism spelled the end of rule by Kings and Priests, and they want their power back. They can’t just SAY that anymore, so they have to develop talking points (ie, "trickle down") and propaganda vehicles (talk radio) to con the yokels.
The worst thing that can ever happen to the Conservatives is to win power, at which point they become prey to those above them. The true "Atlas Shrugging" would be for liberals to simply let Cons be conned and offer no opposition for their annihilating ideas. Libs aren’t built that way however, so on it goes.
Wile E. Quixote
@Lev
You should read Rick Perlstein’s excellent Nixonland (John, go ahead and put up a link to the ‘Zon and pimp the book). Perlstein describes perfectly how much of Nixon’s campaign was basically "fuck you, liberal bastards". He also describes how incredibly masturbatory and self-indulgent the left was back in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Perlstein is an unabashed left-winger, yet his book is one of the most balanced histories I’ve ever read and after reading it you’ll have a real understanding of what made Tricky Dicky run.
Perlstein’s other book, Before the Storm, about the Goldwater campaign of 1964 is due to be released in a paperback edition this year and it’s another excellent read.
The thing is when you compare Nixon and Bush Bush looks like even more of a loser. Say what you will about Richard Nixon, and Hunter S. Thompson wrote a brilliant eulogy for him that described his faults to a ‘T’, Nixon was hard working, energetic and incredibly disciplined. He was an evil bastard and towards the end, a crazy one, but he wasn’t a lazy and stupid one like George W. Bush.
Mike in NC
One of the many inane things Reagan said was "Thou shalt not speak ill of a fellow Republican" or words to that effect. Country First, after all.
Hipple, Rev. Paul T.
I don’t know about all this stuff, but we Southerners reckon ourselves quite conservative, just so long as we are talking Biblical Principles conservatism.
And for the record, we’re mad because the North stole our Negroes and used them against us during the War of Northern Aggression.
That is a recognized Fact of History.
And then just as we was putting an end to the Negro rebellions and things was calming down and getting back to normal, them Kennedy’s came down here and freed ’em up all over again!
-RPTH
headpan
I don’t know where the real conservatives are. Where are they? Seems like the libertarians are more conservative than repubelicans anymore.
I mean, the word "conservative" should NEVER be used to describe someone like Kristol. If there are any true conservatives left, I’d be one pissed off bunch. But I would be ashamed to stay in the republican party. I would completely abandon the Dems if they had fucked the party this bad.
People like Kristol deserve no respect or deferrence – I’m sorry Obama thinks he has to sit down with these people who make my skin crawl. I guess he knows what he’s doing. (shrug)
Left Coast Tom
Sometime around the late 1990s I quit trying to parse what the word "conservative" might mean in the context of US politics. I had once been a Republican voter, and concluded sometime during the reign of Bush The First that my voting pattern didn’t reflect either my values or my common sense. I say that by way of disclosure…my real point is that, over time, I decided that if "real"conservatives were happy to allow their "word" to be appropriated by crass opportunists whose actual goal was right-wing radicalism, then it wasn’t my place to argue that the word should mean something other than right-wing radicalism. There are far more important battles to fight than the meaning of a word no longer valued by it’s original claimants…at least, no longer valued such that they would fight for it. That fight belonged to others, and they’ve lost it.
Alan Smithee
If so many were enchanted by the Bush years, how come President Obama gets to say "I won"?
binzinerator
Out of curiosity, I Googled ‘hobbes and american conservatism’. And I got this little gem, found over at the Heritage Foundation’s website, written by one James Ceaser (PhD) and titled ‘How to Think About the Foundations of Conservatism‘, and it was obvious to me that most of the people commenting here have fucking hit the nail on the head.
The very first paragraph:
Or as TOS’s put it (summing up Lev’s observation):
Bullseye. But lest a reader question the wisdom of basing an entire political movement on this, Ceaser reassures:
Just about everything the commenters here have noted can be found in that fucktard’s essay: the latent bigotry, the authoritarianism, the requirement for tolerance to massive cognitive dissonance. Someone who is obsessed with ‘the concept of culture and creed’ is someone who is obsessed with constructing a moral philosophy that can justify bigotry. Go on, say it in a Southern accent: "Y’all don’t understand the concept of culture and creed here." Pitch perfect.
All this turd-polishing was written by a guy with a name that looks a typo for ‘Caesar’. Too fucking perfect for a political movement noted for its authoritarianism.
Ceaser calls conservatives "a coalition of the willing that came together during the presidency of Ronald Reagan". And yet another commenter here scores a bullseye.