Is there any health care bill that Obama won’t sign?
Shorter Me
by Tim F| 58 Comments
This post is in: Democratic Stupidity
by Tim F| 58 Comments
This post is in: Democratic Stupidity
Is there any health care bill that Obama won’t sign?
Comments are closed.
Comrade Stuck
My read on his statements are that if costs aren’t controlled then there is no reform. Followed by, a public option is the only way to do that. Not much else to go on at this stage, which is still early.
JenJen
Gotta tell ya, I’m discouraged by the most recent developments. But… I think this President is a rational, measured one, and I’m willing to wait longer until the White House’s actual position on health care reform is clear.
I will not let Tom Daschle defeat me, not yet. Not yet.
TenguPhule
What is the sound of one hand nutslapping Daschle?
SGEW
I hate to be cynical, but this recent Nobody Scores! comic (in its own, peculiar way) comes pretty close to how I’m starting to feel about this administration.
Gerhard
Is there any pro-bank fatcats, permanent custody, move-tortured-war-prisoners-to-other-black-sites bill Obama won’t sign?
The Grand Panjandrum
If you are gay or sick (or both) the prognosis for your cause being advanced is fading quickly.
Hey all you F*gs and Cripples STFU, go sit in the back of the bus and be happy you live in a free country.
Jesus!
Tsulagi
No.
SASQ
ruemara
As of yet, I wasn’t aware he had signed one.
Kirk Spencer
Here’s the thing that causes me to gape.
Back when the Clintons tried to do this, the Big Reason the Republicans fought it so hard was the study that showed it would mean a five to ten percent shift in national voting patterns for at least a generation, probably two, maybe three. So for the sake of NOT seeing Democratic control for the next fifty years, they killed health care.
The study still applies. A good health care plan is worth five to ten percentage points in every election for the remaining political life of every congresscritter currently in office. That advantage is worth literally millions of dollars – in some districts that might add up to billions in the end – and yet…
These idiots are throwing it away.
ronin122
Not sure, but my sense of the House is that if the bill ends up being total shit (pretty much meaning no public option) then it’s going to be killed there. I still have my hopes that if the pressure keeps mounting on them and we keep repeating the facts that the majority SUPPORT it that maybe we’ll actually get a bill that–while not perfect–actually does a net positive instead of pissing off everyone. But then again, I know not to depend on a party that is in total power and yet so afraid of perhaps the most disgracefully relegated minority party since FDR. I mean shit, I know Obama and most the Dems are on our side in spirit but wtf, unless you see a result–and FSM help me I fucking HATE it when this meme is spouted with a passion–then is it any wonder so many think there’s no difference between who is in power (except that with the GOP you get a shit sandwich but you’re guaranteed that you’ll be eating it, so you know what to expect).
mai naem
What he won’t sign? Oh, that’s easy. He won’t sign one that will be single payer. He won’t sign one that offers affordable decent health insurance for every single American. Why is that you ask? Because, he’s turning out to be what I was most dreading. A repeat of WJC. And not in a good way. He’s got less experience than WJC as an executive and is already weaseling out of practically every campaign promise he made. Hell, at least with HRC you knew what we were getting. Obama has been a huuuuge disappointment to me so far. And no, I wasn’t one of those “Obama is the savior” kind of Obama voters. I just thought he would have more balls than what he’s shown so far. If not now, than when? That should be the question to every quisling Dem. Seasons change, political pendulums swing. If it is not done now, I am afraid real healthcare reform won’t be done for another decade.
rock
Obama has yet to do anything to show that he is not just another cog in the corporatocracy. What has he done so far other than ramp up the military in Afghanistan, leave Iraq unchanged, affirm DOMA, not lift a finger on DADT, keep Bush-era environmental laws in place, put forth sham financial regulation. This list goes on. As John Kass repeatedly warned, Obama is a “go-along to get-along” politician, not a reformer.
I expect health care “reform” to be like the financial regulation package: a bunch of PR that is in reality either toothless or subverted to the benefit of the interests it is supposed to regulate.
I hope I am wrong.
Comrade Stuck
@mai naem: @rock:
Jesus fucking Christ. There isn’t even a health care bill marked up yet, let alone on the Senate floor to be amended. And the sky is falling and Obama is Carter and HRC would have been better. What a load of shit. Well Tim, looks like your gathering quite a group of hand wringers and pearl clutchers who can read the future.
Rob in Denver
There’s a good post and comment trail by Matt Steinglass yesterday about Obama and the long game: http://bit.ly/1XPdII
Tim F.
Fail. When do you think is a good time to sell policy? After a crappy weak bill has been written? Hoping that amendments will save a halfassed law that compromises the kitchen sink is a sure sign of masochism.
rock
Read it again — the complaint is that he isn’t doing anything NOW. He has not forcefully stood up for the public option. You read more about Obama pushing reform of malpractice awards than you do about public insurance.
Moreover, the media reporting of the CBO numbers drives down the number of people wanting reform significantly in polls and yet there has been NO coordinated pushback on this. For someone that ran such a disciplined campaign, I’m shocked. It can’t help but make you question Obama’s devotion to true reform.
Comrade Stuck
@Tim F.:
What are you talking about. Obama has made it clear that he wants a public option, and will be saying so again in a few days. He does not control the Senate, and all we have coming from there are murky news reports and rumors. Until a bill is submitted and marked up, we don’t know what it will be.
If a weak bill comes out of markup and Obama signals he would sign it without a public option, then I will join you. Until then I will pass on the pearl clutching fail.
Otherwise this is a process that was certain to be messy and full of skullduggery, and it’s just begun.
mai naem
What you are going to get yet again, are some solutions that will fix some peripheral issues. Sorry, but Obama and the Senators and Congress folks are too beholden to the insurance cos. and the rest of the healthcare industry to do real reform. You may get some buy into Medicare for older but not old enough for Medicare people. You may get some minor relief for some not quite poor enough for Medicaid people. The rest of the working poor will be stuck as will the middle class independent contractors who will be one illness away from bankruptcy. In return for this, Obama will cave in regarding medical malpractice and I’m sure the insurance cos. will make out on the Medicare folks. There will some initial minimal taxation on benefits just to get the serfs used to it. There will be cuts in Medicare benefits. Meanwhile, business as usual will continue. Obama, and Michelle will get platinum plated healthcare for the rest of their lives as will the kids till they turn 25. Congress Critters will also be living off their government healthcare which apparently it too good for the serfs.
jcricket
This is why Democrats always fail. We let Republicans get out ahead, play defense, give in a bunch to please David Broder, and come out of the legislative sausage grinder with shit.
Every time – we simply act as if our ideas are self-evident, and that compromise is the most important thing. Six words: Fuck that and fuck that too.
When Republicans are in charge they get out in front, call us anti-american economy-killing know-nothings, we cave, and they get a rock-solid (but horribly misguided and sure to screw us all) bill they wanted to begin with.
Given the stakes, if we can’t buy a fucking clue with the trillions sloshing around in bailout money, we deserve to be voted back out of office. It’s a simple process to avoid this cycle:
1) Make it clear Republican policies and listening to industry wankers got us in this mess.
2) Pass the bill we want (or water it down immaterially by giving Olympia Snowe some extra money for nice-n-easy hair dye subsidies).
3) Remind people we passed the bill and Republicans did not.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
burnspbesq
@rock:
What devotion was that, again?
I continue to be amazed at what some people allowed themselves to believe about Obama.
Obama progressive? Perhaps in some parallel universe, but not in this one. Not ever. The man is a centrist technocrat, and has never been anything other than that. YMMV, but that’s what I voted for. After eight years of the Cheney Organized Crime Family, I will take all the honesty and competence I can get, and worry about the rest later. But that’s just me. YMMV, and I am perfectly fine with that.
If y’all failed to properly manage your expectations, that’s on you, not on him.
And every time you want to take a whack at Obama, ask yourself if you would be better off if McCain had won.
eric
@burnspbesq: I am in partial agreement. I, too, never saw Obama as a progressive savior, but what disappoints me is the current failure to lead the news on this issue. You get your surrogates out there and you blast your talking points over and over. They knew this was coming. “This” is the first real tactical/strategic error that Obama has made.
Given his tradtional strength as a counterpuncher, I think he can regain the advantage going forward.
As for single payer, as a progressive, this is my first choice, but would never emerge out of the Senate, no matter how much Obama pushed it. So, semi-substantial changes with a public option can take us 4 to 6 years out and when the earth remains spinning on its axis, we can go the rest of the way with single payer.
eric
NR
@Comrade Stuck:
He’s said that he wants it, yes. But “want” and $3.50 will get you a latte at Starbucks. He needs to be more forceful.
The fact of the matter is, if Obama said tomorrow that he would veto any health care reform bill that did not include a strong, robust, Medicare-like public option, that would greatly change the course of the debate. I know that Obama is a cautious politician who doesn’t like to take risks–and this would be a risk–but as things stand now, the debate is getting away from him. It seems like every day another Democrat jumps off the boat WRT the public option. If things keep heading down this road, the only reform we’ll get is a bill that makes private insurers even stronger. Obama needs to step up.
FormerSwingVoter
Oh. My. Fucking. God.
Check this out: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_overhaul
No fucking public option. No fucking cost controls of any kind. No prevention of canceling insurance once someone gets sick. But hey, it would everyone to buy insurance, so at least the insurance companies’ profits would be safe!
To top it off, lets pay for it all with a national sales tax, because those aren’t regressive at all!
Words can’t possibly express my rage right now.
LiberalTarian
I don’t call him by his name anymore. Just OBummer. He used to show some spine–I guess it really *is* more important to be nice than it is to be decent. It is decent to make sure everyone has health care at affordable prices (as in, half the cost, like other weathly nations). But no, some man who would cheerfully let me die of preventable diseases might not get a new yacht next year, so, we get “incremental progress.” I’ve seen this movie … the same one environmentalists always see … to save the forest you have to fight every year and win, and they only have to win once.
Why we thought he was going to make changes, with Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi as his allies, is really kind of beyond reckoning. Sure he’s smart … but he compromises. The other side? They want him to fail. So, to make them happy, he will try to fail at half of everything. He will succeed at getting puppy, and fail at repealing DOMA. He will succeed at taking his wife on dream dates, and fail at providing decent health care to all Americans. He will succeed at giving the military more money and keeping Bush’s worst policies in place, and fail at creating a more just America. See? He is succeeding half the time! Can’t you be happy gawddammit?
pattonbt
@eric:
This is what I struggle with but have accepted (long ago in the primary) with Obama. Like burnspbesq, I voted for a pragmatist who is going to do mostly good, stop the bleeding and begin to repair the country. But not one who can give me every wish NOW!
I have wanted Obama to ‘take the gloves’ off so many times (during the primary, the general and now) that I have lost count. Yet, for the most part, his measured pace has worked and gotten results.
The best part of his measured approach is that his opponents wind themselves, redden their faces and make themselves look like blithering idiots while Obama looks calm cool and collected. The adult in the room. Will this work long term? Will it get shit done? I dont know.
The problem with me is in the end I am too much a pragmatist and cynic to believe he can do (could have done too) much of anything substantial. Not because ‘he sucks’ but because the system he is up against. Americans, on average, suck and those who are in power still believe in American exceptionalism at no cost or responsibility. And they are never questioned by any serious media. How can you honestly fight that? America is still the land of ‘we want everything but we sure as hell dont want to pay for it’. Changing that attitude will take a generation if not longer.
So Obama’s choices are 1) try and change the system overnight and fail, 2) regress and work in the system and fail, 3) try and change incrementally and in the middle and maybe fail or maybe succeed a little. Since 1 and 2 have always failed Im willing to give option 3 8 years.
People need to relax and give things time. For me, Ill take stock in 2012, my guess is Ill be mostly pleased (along with many of the current pearl clutchers) and happy to pull the level for Obama again. Thats always the best I would have ever hoped for.
Texas Dem
No. Obama isn’t going to make the same mistake that Bill and Hillary did, insisting on universal coverage and ending up with nothing. Obama is pragmatic. He’ll take whatever he can get and call it a victory.
I think the sad reality many Dems are having trouble coming to terms with is that reform must come in stages. We’ll probably have to start with a lukewarm bill that falls well short of universal coverage but ends some of the more abuse practices in the insurance industry (limits on coverage for pre-existing illnesses, canceling coverage when people get sick, etc.). Then, in a few years, we might be able to enact something more comprehensive. We need to abandon the fantasy that we’re going to get anything like universal coverage this year. Most people still have health insurance and are reasonably satisfied with their coverage. That makes sweeping reform of the health care industry very difficult, if not impossible.
And the reason the bill needs to be bipartisan is because the Dems will need political cover for some of the unpopular things that must be done (taxing gold-plated health care plans, for example). Not to mention the fact that it would be nice if the reforms survived beyond the end of Obama’s term.
NR
@Texas Dem:
The problem with this approach is that there are “reform” proposals being seriously discussed in Democratic circles that would be WORSE than the status quo.
As far as I’m concerned, if we can’t get a GOOD reform bill out of this Congress (meaning, a bill that includes a public option), then we should just cancel every piece of reform legislation and make the 2010 elections a referendum on health care. Let the Republicans and the so-called “moderate” Democrats get out there and make the argument that we shouldn’t provide more people with better health care at a lower cost because it would be “unfair” to the private, for-profit insurance industry. See how far they get with that.
HaHaYourTurn
why dont u stop blaming obama? he does not write laws. do something effective idiots. where are your ads demonstrating what health care is doing to you? why are you whinging to us? you make me dislike you when you do that. shut up and wait or do something effective.
Texas Dem
The public may be on our side right now, but after six or eight months of ads from the insurance industry scaring the hell out of them, the polls won’t look quite so favorable.
Haven’t we all seen this movie before? Remember 1993? Remember those television ads with Harry and Louise? Check out Stan Greenberg’s post in New Republic. He goes over the polling data and comes to the (sad) conclusion that the polls are almost exactly where they were in 1993. Again, most people have health insurance and are reasonably satisfied with the coverage. That’s the hill you have to climb.
FormerSwingVoter
It might be worth emailing the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee at [email protected] … or to let Obama know how you feel. Or to send a line to Baucus or Dodd.
Jesus. I can’t believe we may actually end up with something without a public option and no way to bring costs down. Don’t they realize that over 70% of Americans want a public option? Don’t they realize that health costs for the gov’t will be as high as the entire 2010 budget in twenty years? Don’t these people fucking read?!??
mai naem
If you want a true public option pull Baucus’ and every single congress critters’ health insurance. You’ll get single payer so quick, it’ll make your head spin. I am becoming more and moe convinced that that is the way to go. Pressure each and every one of them to drop their coverage under the cover of “it’s too expensive for us, than you can afford it on a $175K salary.” Just shame them into dropping theirs.
rock
I’m glad that McCain isn’t mulling the invasion of Iran right now, but it is tortured logic to say that means I should be happy with anything Obama does.
Moreover, on the issue of health, I don’t think it was progressive wishcasting to believe Obama would try to push a decent public program through. You say we should have expected a “centrist” and that’s true. Accordingly, I’m not expecting single-payer. I’m expecting a decent reform package with a public plan option. And it’s clear that Obama is not fighting for that option, and that he has failed massively to get any congressional support for such a plan and has failed to organize any cohesive team to push such a plan through.
Look at the Baucus plan: it is worse than the status quo and that’s before more compromises are made to win Republican votes. The for-profit healthcare industry is going to make out like bandits here with taxpayers shoving money at them to cover people they don’t wish to cover now (much more money than if a public plan covered those people). It’s just like the Wall Street giveaway. That’s not centrism, that’s just looting.
But he’s not McCain, so I guess it’s OK.
Texas Dem
Real health care reform, and I mean true systemic change, will involve inflicting PAIN on some very powerful people. You will have to tell some doctors and hospitals that they won’t make as much money as they’re used to; that insurance companies won’t be as profitable; that taxes will go up (probably a VAT or something similar); and that there will be limits on care (yes, that ugly word, RATIONING). I could go on but you get the idea. Needless to say, this is impossible given the present structure of our political system.
Perhaps Obama was elected about four years too early. It might have been better for progressive economic and health care goals if we’d elected McCain/Palin and let the country fall into utter ruin, just as it did in the 1930s. A true 1930s-style depression that wipes out much of the middle class and totally obliterates the credibility of the political and economic establishment might be the only thing that will bring about true systemic change.
As things stand now, all we’re going to get is half a loaf, and perhaps not even that.
oh really
And you will be too late. That’s the kind of timing Democrats are famous for.
Obama mortally wounded meaningful reform when he took single payer off the table during the campaign. It’s implausible to argue that he would have lost the election if he’d said, “We need to have a national dialog about health care reform. And the only reasonable approach to that is to begin with every possible option ON THE TABLE.” What he did was shrink the discussion spectrum down to about the size of a walnut and leave the public option sitting out there as the “far left, radical” approach. Stupid beyond belief!
In fact, it was probably even dumber than naming Tom Daschle as the mastermind who would guide the passage of health care legislation. When did Tom Daschle ever fight for anything? But the choice of Daschle was instructive. In one personnel choice Obama revealed 1) how conventional and moderate (aka center right) he is and 2) how terrible he is at choosing people to fill key positions. (We got our first look at that with Biden, but the list of losers, half-wits, and invertebrates is long.)
In all likelihood, it is already too late. Far too many people sat at home and said, “Well, let’s wait and see what he comes up with. Until then I’m just going to be really cool and sit back and assume everything will turn out all right. And if it all goes to hell, oh, boy, will I stomp my feet and yell.”
Good luck with that strategy. It’s failed every time in the past. It will fail every time in the future — especially when we’re dealing with a fundamentally timid, centrist president who thinks a bad bill that everyone signs onto is better than a great bill that narrowly passes, and a Senate filled with corrupt and hypocritical Democratic senators who care a lot more about the insurance companies than they do about their own constituents. They know no one is going to hold them accountable so they feel free to be worthless.
As was pointed out above, Obama has failed repeatedly to keep campaign promises and on some issues he is as bad as or worse than Bush (e.g. state secrets, DOMA, etc.). The time to have gotten all over Obama was on January 21. Now, he’s riding along looking at his approval ratings and thinking he’s doing pretty damn well. But the American people are as fickle as they are ignorant and his popularity could evaporate overnight.
Obama’s caution may well be his undoing, and the people who cared the most that he be elected have every reason to be mad as hell at this point.
burnspbesq
@rock:
I know I didn’t say that, and I don’t think it’s a reasonable inference from what I did say.
Game ain’t over yet. Be open to the possibility that Obama’s seeming passivity is just Rope-a-Dope.
Concern is OK. Alarm is sorta OK. Panic and resignation are waaaaay premature.
jc
Well, sure. But somewhere I’ve heard, “the end result is born from the seeds of the beginning”, or something like that.
And THAT is what has me concerned. Look at how this is starting. A CBO report, based on Baucus not including a public option or cost controls. 1.6 trillion in the hole, as the 1st imagining.
A BAD BILL.
To be fair, of course, it’s the Senate that’s screwing this up. But currently, it IS being screwed up.
Can it be fixed in committee, a good bill created, and wrenched more towards the House side of the bill, and then crammed through in the dead of night with 51 votes?
Well, I’m ashamed to admit, I’d take it.
And hey, as I said in the last thread. I’ll sacrifice nearly EVERYTHING I care about this year – DADT, IRaq, spying, cap and trade, more stimulus, modern renewable energy friendly electrical grid.
All of it. And be happy. IF there is a decent health care bill.
The immediate impact is:
100 million americans lives are better.
A reduction of actual COST to health care, plugging some the financial hole in the budget boat.
So yeah – I don’t think I’m being pie in the sky.
I’m not wanting a pony, and all my wishes to come true (if that were the case, immediate universal coverage!)
I’m wanting a compromise – public option – that PUTS US ON THE RIGHT PATH.
And the beginning we are seeing, isn’t going the right way.
Comrade Stuck
@oh really:
You know what. I can’t figure out people like you on the left. Does the faux all knowing smug piety make you feel powerful? Your the type that jumps off buildings because the elevator is to slow.
oh really
@Comrade Stuck
Dear Comrade, I guess I can’t help you figure out those like me on the left. But perhaps you confuse experience with “faux all knowing smug piety,” an empty string of verbiage at best. However, it does seem like all your chiding about “hand-wringers” and “pearl clutchers” sounds a lot more smug to me than anything I wrote.
On the other hand, I’m not going to waste my time getting into an adolescent name calling pissing match with you.
I will say this: I don’t feel smug, all-knowing, or pious. I feel deeply concerned about some of the appalling decisions that Obama has made. He has made health care reform the signature issue of his first term, yet he has systematically given away most if not all of the advantages he could have brought to the fight. In return he’s gotten nothing.
The idea that this is some grand “rope-a-dope” plan seems, I fear, far-fetched at best. He has made one decision after another — in some cases on issues that I felt justified impeaching and removing Bush from office — that would be outrageous even for a Republican president. He’s not only following some of Bush’s worst policies, he’s extending them. Sadly, I was no longer surprised when it turned out that he sided with Scalia, Thomas, Alito, Roberts, and Kennedy in denying William Osborne the right to DNA testing that could definitively prove his guilt or innocence. The “left” used to stand for caring whether or not innocent people sit in prison. Apparently not any more.
I worked hard to help elect Obama and things he’s doing now are deeply offensive to me (and I’m not alone). If you think my concern about what he’s been doing and the way he has mishandled the health care issue constitute “faux all knowing smug piety,” there’s not much I can do about it.
bago
Has everyone been missing what’s been happening?
The American economy lost its shit, and is going to be incredibly expensive to fix.
The American country lost its shit. We’re in two shooting wars, and we were torturing people.
The American people lost their shit, and are running around shooting people in the face.
North Kora lost its shit, and they’re blowing up nukes.
Iran lost its shit, and are getting shot at and are having demonstrations the likes of which we haven’t seen since since the revolution and there are potential nukes involved.
That’s a lot of shit.
Xenos
Obama is permanently knocked off the offensive on this issue by the permanent financial crisis we find ourselves in (Thanks Grover!). He can’t push the the kind of expensive change that is needed – by expensive I mean not only the cost of a decent public option, but the effect of millions of insurance company functionaries who are going to find themselves unemployed by any real reform.
The costs of the program and the social change threaten his attempts to stabilize the rest of the economy. So he is deadlocked.
Conclusion? In order to get real reform there needs to be a politically force exogenous to DC that demands it. Universal Health Care needs to be like the civil rights movement, so pervasive and morally imperative that the political system can no longer resist it. Any politician is necessarily passive – only when a force that exceeds that of the insurance industry and Wall Street demands reform will we get it, even from Obama.
We need a revolution of sorts. We probably need to kill the Democratic Party as we know it.
bob h
And every time you want to take a whack at Obama, ask yourself if you would be better off if McCain had won.
As far as I can tell, all McCain would have accomplished by now would have been the firing of Christopher Cox.
Napoleon
Obama has to make it clear in public that he will veto any bill without a robust public option. Privately he has to tell people like Conrad, Nelson and Cooper that if they keep kneecapping the public option they will permanently be on his shit list.
He has to finally grow a pair and find his inner LBJ.
Tim H.
If he was planning on doing this he already would have done it. He’s shown that if he wants something (the war supplemental cake with foreign bank bailout icing) he gets right in there and beats the Blue Dogs over their heads and tells the Repubs to shove it. You know, the old way of getting something done, not eleven dimensional chess. It may already be too late.
Comrade Stuck
@oh really:
Comrade Stuck
@oh really:
Let me be clear. It is not the fact that folks like you are “concerned” about what Obama is, or is not doing. It’s the fact that in both of your posts in this thread you fail to cite a single instance where he has done something right. It’s as if you sit around all day trying to think of something to come here and hammer a dem president that has done more progressive stuff than Clinton and Carter combined.
And you pick out things like obscure court cases and internet fed rumoring to make your point. Then weave them into a condemnation such as
Please provide a link where Obama has said in the campaign that he would repeal DOMA or the State Secret provision in the constitution. Or that he would simply walk away from Bush era lawsuits, he had no part in.
All while a long list of good stuff he has accomplished never seems to enter your knuckle head, that seems filled with GOS horseshit trivia and half baked conclusions of failure. What don’t you understand when he has stated unequivically that the health bill has to include a public option to be considered reform. Notwithstanding him daily standing on a street corner preaching his beliefs to the masses.
When and if he changes what he’s said and gives in to Max Baucus, then he is on course. Why don’t you just start campaigning for Sarah Palin, you pompous ass.
Comrade Stuck
Ok, I see he did once call for the repeal of DOMA during the campaign, so I am corrected on that one issue.
cosanostradamus
.
‘ Is there any health care bill that Obama won’t sign? ‘
Yes. The one that would have worked: Universal single-payer national healthcare.
DINO’s Out in 2010 & 2012!
Job’s only half done.
But there’s fun news, too. Sorta.
.
oh really
@Comrade Stuck
Sweet. It’s nice to see that you’ve adopted one of the principal arguing tools of the RedState Fringe.
Show me a link. Show me a link. Show me a link.
Find your own links. It’s not my job to keep you up to date.
As for not mentioning any of the good things that Obama has done, that is simply a stupid comment. First, a president could do an endless number of good things and one so egregious that it warranted impeachment and removal from office.
I’m aware of the good things Obama has done. The problem is he’s doing things that are spilling over into the other category — and they can’t be justified or excused by his good deeds.
Second, it would be beyond absurd to have to start any criticism of a president (especially in a blog comment) with a rundown of all the great things he’s done. The subject of the thread was about just how bad a bill Obama would sign. Therefore, your call for a listing of all Obama’s good deeds borders on threadjacking. I wouldn’t object to anyone pointing out good things, but I surely wouldn’t require it.
I could turn the tables and say that you don’t seem able to acknowledge any bad things that Obama has done. That’s a fairly common problem on both sides of the political spectrum. But I’d much rather follow the model of people like Greenwald and Froomkin who realize that the way to get positive results from a president is not to sit around stroking his ego all the time with praise for his good works. (Note: since I’m significantly older that either Greenwald or Froomkin, I’m not “following” their model, it’s what I’ve always believed.)
In truth, the people most responsible for criticizing a president should be his supporters and those who worked to get him elected (Q: Did you do anything apart from casting a vote?). Of course, Rush Limbaugh and John McCain and RedState are going to criticize Obama. So, it’s no surprise that most, if not all, of their objections are just mindless partisan spewage without substance.
Grow up, will you. Again you sound like a RedState commenter. My point in saying that is not to insult you, but to point out that this kind of verbiage is a waste of everyone’s time. Obviously, your basic tools of discussion/argument are insult and name calling. You might benefit from less of that and little more research, so you know what you’re talking about. I repeat, I won’t waste my time providing links for you, but since I didn’t make up what I said, the information is out there if you’re interested. But then, I can see that you’re not.
There is obviously no point in any further exchange between us. You’re just going to call me names and whine about how I don’t appreciate Obama enough. And clearly, nothing I saw is going to get through to you.
PS I didn’t make up the DOMA promise, or anything else. Now that you’ve discovered you were wrong about that you’ll spend some time filling in the gaps. Maybe if you read Greenwald, Froomkin, and the occasional NY Times editorial (among other sources) you wouldn’t have to ask for citations — you’d already know them.
Comrade Stuck
Did I hurt your feelings? I am soo sorry. Again I will quote you, a quote that belies everything you claim for self defense.
It is the alpha and omega of my complaint and you are not the only one, just the most arrogant. The above condemnation pretty much covers every inane accusation that has been made in this thread, and the ONLY one that has even a smidgeon of truth is the DOMA one. The state secret thing is bullshit. When he is using it inappropriately then get back to me. and Bush’s abuses don’t count and neither does Obama’s method of cleaning up his mess. This goes for torture, detentions and the like.
Sorry to have bruised your delicate progressive sensibilities, as I can be all assholish, though not as much in recent times. It will get better once the swelling goes down.
As for acting like Redstate, you have that down pat with arguments using minutia and speculation as prime evidence for your conclusions.
oh really
Dear Comrade Stuck(in a very deep and boring rut) —
So, the tantrum continues.
Hurt my feelings? That’s rich. Your argue like a little kid, why on Earth would that hurt my feelings? You’re obviously spending way too much time at the keyboard trying to bully people who don’t agree with you. Perhaps a hobby would help.
Have a nice life.
PS Why don’t you just glue your shift key down?
Comrade Stuck
@oh really:
LOL. If I read much more drivel from prissy dilettantes like you, I just might.
You’re the one who throws out unsupported horseshit, then refuses to back it up with evidence, declaring you’re going to take your ball and go home. Maybe Corrente would be more you’re style. Or what’s her name. Riverdaughter.
JC
Oh yeah??!?
Well, I fart in your guys general direction! So there!
And something about elderberries, I forget.
oh really
@Comrade Stuck
OK, you win. I’ve provided some of the reading you requested. I hope that you’ll read everything I’ve provided, plus browse through possibly relevant material under further reading. After that there’s the amazing “google,” which should keep you busy for some time. I’d have done more, but this really is your job, and while I’m willing to get you started, I’m not willing to do it all for you, especially since I doubt you’ll actually read any of it. And even if you do, I doubt your ability to analyze it in a productive way.
A start for those too lazy to do their own work:
Greenwald / Obama transparency
Greenwald / Secrecy
Greenwald / Blocking accountability
Greenwald / Obama and Graham-Lieberman Secrecy
Greenwald / NYTimes
Greenwald / State Secrets
NYTimes State Secrets
You can just browse through the following —
Further reading
Of course there is lots more out there (some of it not even Internet rumor mill stuff). Have fun.
This is so stupid it boggles the mind. The whole point of so much of this “bullshit” is that we won’t know when it’s being used. It’s a “SECRET.” Your utter lack of understanding explains why you think it’s nonsense — the Bush/Obama doctrine on this issue says the executive gets to make the decision based on anything it wants to, doesn’t need the courts, who have no jurisdiction, and because it is a state secret no one can know about it. Obama even went so far as to declare that the president can designate something that has already been published in newspapers a state secret — that designation alone would be sufficient to prevent a “detainee” from challenging his detention in court. Something you should remember is that even if Obama were a perfect saint, these “tools” will be available for future presidents — maybe even Sara Palin. I’d like to keep that from happening.
I don’t expect you to believe/accept/understand any of this. You’re obviously either just so taken with Obama or too ideologically rigid to accept valid criticism of him.
What I’ve provided is by no means exhaustive. You can ignore it if you want to or you can do a little googling — I’d recommend avoiding the Internet rumor mills — and maybe learn something. I don’t hold out much hope, but I’ve been surprised before.
Incidentally, you’ve revealed yourself to be such a tedious ass, I hope you’ll understand that I don’t care what you think of any of the material I’ve linked to.
This will end the discussion on my end. If you feel the need to get the last word, or call me one more name (which I guess is what makes you feel “powerful”) go right ahead.
Alas, it has been
funboring, but I have other duties to attend to now.oh really
Dear Stuck:
I’ve provided a number of links, but for some reason my comment is stuck “awaiting moderation.” I don’t know how moderation works, but if the comment doesn’t go through, I’ll try to post the links for you later. Then, you’ll have your links and plenty of reading to do.
Comrade Stuck
@oh really:
Prolly had too many links. Cole will be around to release it. I’m on pins and needles.
And I would like to know if you’re over 21. I don’t want to argue with the underaged.
oh really
Stuck:
There were quite a few links.
Based on your writing style (belligerent), typical Internet demographics, and my actual age (sigh), I’m probably old enough to be your father. And, I’ve already wasted too much time on this anyway, so any arguing you have to do will have to be with yourself or some lucky new victim.
Comrade Stuck
@oh really:
I think you’re catching on to the Balloon Juice milieu. But I will honor your wish for an end to debate. Chow:)
Comrade Stuck
Oh really.
You are so cruel. All of those Greenwald articles have been mushed over at this site, and I would as soon jump in a barrel of snapping turtles than read them again. Greenwald is smart and should be respected for that and his tenacity. But since Obama was elected he has been prone to unexplained bouts of hysteria concerning “Obama is just like, or worse than Bush” rants. Kinda like you. State Secrets claims have been around since the Constitution was signed and has been invoked by every president including Obama. It has generally not been abused like with Bush ever before, and not with Obama. There is a bill pending lefislation to overhaul it’s use to put limits so it won’t be abused. Obama supports it and it;s overhauling.