Medicare is socialized medicine.
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Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
Stamping your little feets and demanding that they see how important you are? Not working anymore.
Perhaps you mistook them for somebody who gives a damn.
You don’t get to peddle hatred on saturday and offer condolences on sunday.
Michigan is a great lesson for Dems everywhere: when you have power…use it!
Baby steps, because the Republican Party is full of angry babies.
Red lights blinking on democracy’s dashboard
Hey hey, RFK, how many kids did you kill today?
“The defense has a certain level of trust in defendant that the government does not.”
Peak wingnut was a lie.
Every one of the “Roberts Six” lied to get on the court.
Our job is not to persuade republicans but to defeat them.
Hot air and ill-informed banter
All hail the time of the bunny!
Hell hath no fury like a farmer bankrupted.
People are complicated. Love is not.
There are a lot more evil idiots than evil geniuses.
The rest of the comments were smacking Boebert like she was a piñata.
Petty moves from a petty man.
Jesus, Mary, & Joseph how is that election even close?
The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand.
Let there be snark.
It’s pointless to bring up problems that can only be solved with a time machine.
People identifying as christian while ignoring christ and his teachings is a strange thing indeed.
Impressively dumb. Congratulations.
You are here: Home / ATTN: ELDERLY WINGNUTS AT THE HEALTH CARE FORUMS SCREAMING ABOUT KEEPING GOVERNMENT OUT OF MEDICARE
Pug
In unison now: “No socialism, end Medicare now!”
Rob Roser
Don’t be ridiculous…these people are PATRIOTS. They’d never participate in a socialized health plan.
Why are you trying to kill old people?
burnspbesq
Amazing, innit. Somewhere in Heaven, there are two interesting conversations going on.
One is between P.T. Barnum and H.L. Mencken.
The other is between Molly Ivins and Steve Gilliard. At times like this, I miss those two terribly. A couple of sane voices would sure be nice right about now.
Awesom0
…KEEPING GOVERNMENT OUT OF MEDICARE
Ouch, my brain hurts.
Violet
Yes! Thank you. I can’t believe the idiocy.
@burnspbesq:
Lolz. That’s a conversation I’d pay to see.
Unabogie
I’m turning 40 this year. I can’t ever remember a Presidential campaign where the primary strategy was balls to the walll lying (even after being called on it).
Nor, can I remember a complete half of the country visible living in complete fantasy.
Think of the things these people take as reality:
We found WMD in Iraq.
Terry Schiavo had no brain damage.
Barack Obama is a Kenyan citizen.
Universal health care is a plot to kill them.
Batshit.
Just batshit.
jon
Shorter Elderly Wingnuts:
I got mine, fuck y’all.
El Cid
Is that why Obama’s trying to kill poor Trig Palin?
Meyer
@jon:
Shorter Elderly Wingnuts:
I got mine, fuck y’all.
Which is going to work great until we start to need to adjust medicare coverage to meet budgets, at which point the need to get young healthy people into the pool will suddenly become shockingly clear.
burnspbesq
I think that one of the unsung villains in the health care debacle is Rick Wagoner, the former CEO of General Motors. GM would have benefited more than any other company in America from either single-payer or a robust public option. Everybody who has ever looked at the data has concluded that GM was at a cost disadvantage of at least $1,500 per US-assembled vehicle vs. Toyota and Honda because of the costs associated with UAW health benefits (including gold-plated benefits for retirees), and similarly generous benefits it was forced to provide to its non-hourly workforce to avoid a morale and retention problem. But instead of advocating for a US solution to the problem, Wagoner’s answer was to shift production to Canada.
Sigh.
wobblybits
@El Cid: Oh good grief, is this woman still talking?
Demo Woman
It’s mind boggling to me how Rush and the rest of talk radio can gain control of this issue. When you turn 65 and go on medicare do you use your faculties?
The local news coverage of David Scott’s town hall indicated that David Scott was over reacted because a nice doctor, who was not a republican wanted to ask a question. The journalists said this could backfire on the democrats.
It does seem that the new memo of the mobs is I’m not a republican. I guess they are just your ordinary whackos.
demkat620
This is every fucking August now. Fucking wingnuts. They are like a plague of locusts.
I have never seen such shameless liars. You gotta love the woman who’s the GOP operative lie to the camera and say “I’m not a member of the GOP. I’m just a concerned mom.”
That’s fucking evil.
bob h
Actually, it isn’t even that. The government pays for it, but the providers are all in the private sector, part of our glorious system of free enteprise.
mai naem
You can never underestimate how stupid the American sheeple are.
Comrade Jake
Here’s the thing about all these town halls: I actually don’t sense *one ounce* of panic/desperation from the Democrats. Nooners might want it to be that way, but that doesn’t make it so.
Anyone else? Sure they’re perturbed by the interruptions at the town halls, but being ticked is not the same emotional response as desperation.
Comrade Jake
Good to see Palin bring out her wingnut A-game. I was beginning to become concerned she’d lost a step.
MattF
Typical evil librul using words that mean what they mean.
El Cid
@Comrade Jake: That’s an important point. Also, I’d point out that though fearful for the effects on the republic in general, and alert to the prospect of spinoff ‘lone nut’ violence, liberals and Democrats simply are not scared of these people in the way that the screamers want.
They’ve really convinced themselves (and hear on talk radio) that they just need to show up and act intimidating and loud etc. and liberals and Democrats will run away.
But that’s not happening, so they’re forced to go with such humiliating stories as ‘we were skeert by SEIU / ACORN thugs,’ you know, all them ACORN thugs with their, um, clipboards and, uh, you know, intimidating black skin. How dare they, etc.
Tom
@burnspbesq:
What the fuck is this “gold-plated” benefits you are talking about? That’s one of the biggest wingnut talking points out there. What exactly is “gold-plated” about it?
I call bullshit.
daryljfontaine
The proper response to “I am not a Republican, just a concerned troll” is “Well, ma’am/sir, I appreciate that, but I’m afraid your question/concern is rooted in the lies being spread by the Republicans. It is absolutely not true that health care reform will kill your grandma/force you to take abortion pills/cut off aid to you or your daughter’s special needs infant/drink the blood of a thousand puppies. The people who are saying so are just plain liars, shills for the insurance companies and the politicians in their pockets, who want you too scared to want us to help tens of millions of patriotic Americans just like you.”
Of course, this response is too long and will likely get drowned out by noisy chaff, but the gist is “If you want to pretend you’re not an operative, I’ll just pretend you’re a dupe. Which role do you like better?”
D
Meyer
Here’s the thing about all these town halls: I actually don’t sense one ounce of panic/desperation from the Democrats. Nooners might want it to be that way, but that doesn’t make it so.
That’s because the dems are winning. Nobody wants to be on the side of the whacko. The country as a whole wants reform. If it fails to pass now, or passes in a watered down form, the republicans have set themselves up as a set of marvelous scapegoats.
Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
PeakVT
Medicare is socialized medicine.
It’s really socialized health insurance, but the nuance would be lost on those people.
jon
If an old wingnut ever tells me they’re against socialized medicine but are currently receiving it, I’m going to allude to what is the worst slur imaginable to them: I’ll call them gay. I won’t say that, but I will say, “You people are always trying to get special rights for yourselves, aren’t you?”
Fulcanelli
Saturday morning public service announcement…
If you need a chuckle, Ed at Gin and Tacos does a nice send up of the side effects warnings of the weight loss drug “Alli”. Ewww. I accept no responsibility for monitor/keyboard damage.
Just remember kids, the company that makes and sells this stuff is one of the outfits who is funding this town hall lunacy. For our own good of course.
Apparently Obama’s DHS has decided not to enforce the Patriot Act provisions, evidenced by allowing this shit to continue unabated. If this was happening during the BushCo regime we’d be building another Gitmo by now.
The Grand Panjandrum AKA Americans for America
@El Cid: A few SEIU members showing up being classified as thugs because the showed up and were loud in response to the teabaggers rowdiness is predictable. If you come to shout down any public discourse you’re a patriot. If you come as a response to those who want to shut down the discourse you are a thug. Makes a lot of sense in wingnuttia.
Bill Maher’s latest new rule is priceless:
If you haven’t read the piece I highly recommend it for a few chuckles. I generally don’t like brushing with too broad a brush when characterizing behavior in groups but I think he’s made an excellent point about the general ignorance with respect to basic knowledge required to be an informed citizen.
burnspbesq
@Tom:
The fact that something is a “wingnut talking point” doesn’t necessarily make it false. Go look at the data. The fact that we are in a fight with liars doesn’t justify turning out backs on the truth.
You can call whatever you want. The data are what they are, and they are publicly available. Google is a wonderful thing. Educate yourself.
daryljfontaine
@Fulcanelli: My sides actually hurt now, I laughed so hard while reading that.
D
RSA
Every town hall meeting is an implicit intelligence test, which a good portion of the American public seems to be failing.
kay
@burnspbesq:
I agree. I don’t know why they didn’t join sooner, and not just auto manufacturers, all manufacturers.
They knew they were getting eaten alive, and GM has complained for a long time that they’re subsidizing a lot of small business creation, through offering health benefits to the spouses of employees.
Show me a union worker with benefits and I’ll show you the spouse who is free to start a small business, because they’re riding on union benefits. It’s so common where I live it’s almost the rule. One union job, one fierce free market advocate. Same household.
Do they sit on each other’s boards? GM and the health insurers? Is that it?
El Cid
@kay: Part of major employer reluctance to push for single payer or other effective health care / insurance reform, despite their massive potential direct cost savings, is the controversy over whether or not it empowers their own workers too much — workers who are terrified that changing jobs would lose them their health insurance are more compliant.
robertdsc
As almost always is the case with this Administration, it’s failure we can believe in.
kay
@El Cid:
Thanks. The reluctance to act, although they know they’re subsidizing small business didn’t baffle me as much as the reluctance to act when they know they’re subsidizing whole sectors that don’t offer employee benefits, and use a part-time, low-wage army of workers. Like retail, or the service industries, restaurant chains, etc.
I could not figure out why manufacturing would happily subsidize whole other sectors. That seems to me overly generous of them. Even non-union manufacturing offer health benefits, here anyway. The benefits aren’t great, and the employees pay a lot per pay period, and the cost goes up if you’re talking about a “family policy”, but they don’t just dodge the whole issue.
hoipolloi
Just to be clear: Medicare is not socialized medicine. It is single-payer.
Bill H
Medicare is socialized medicine.
Definition of Socialisn: n. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
Medicare consists of individuals paying money into a trust fund and then, at some point, using that money to pay for medical care which is provided by privately owned medical facilities and doctors in private practice. How, precisely does that fit any part of the definition of Socialism? Where is the “collective or governmental ownership of the means of providing” anything part of that program?
It’s really socialized health insurance, but the nuance would be lost on those people.
That definition I will buy.
Just to be clear: Medicare is not socialized medicine. It is single-payer.
Single payer does not pay out medical costs from a trust fund.
calling all toasters
@robertdsc: Dude, I had no idea you were in favor of jailing the teabaggers. Good to know.
kay
@demkat620:
“I have never seen such shameless liars. You gotta love the woman who’s the GOP operative lie to the camera and say “I’m not a member of the GOP. I’m just a concerned mom.”
Well, here’s two things that may comfort you. She’s exhibit A in the NYTimes story that says the protests are ginned up but the anger is real. That’s true. Ginned up, really angry. She got called on the lie in every news account I read.
Glen Beck and Lou Dobbs are now accusing Obama of inciting violence, so they see the risk inherent in being labeled crazy people. If they weren’t scared they wouldn’t be denying. Just two days ago GOP leaders were crowing about how wonderful the tea party people were.
If the discussion becomes “who is crazier?” they probably lose. “Crazy” is no longer in question.
robertdsc
Considering the teabaggers have resorted to domestic terrorism, yes, the law should be enforced. But it won’t be, even after someone gets killed.
kay
@robertdsc:
I think the best way to make this go absolutely over the top is for the Obama administration to haul off some elderly tea party protester on federal charges.
I just could not disagree with you more.
rs
@bob h: @PeakVT: @hoipolloi: What they said. VA healthcare, however, the system William Kristol feels is too good for the average American, is socialized medicine.
kommrade reproductive vigor
It would be funny as fuck if the gubbermint did step out of Medicare. “Sorry Mr. Wingnut, we’re canceling your coverage … Because we can. What? You’ll die without health insurance? No, no, no. Only Obama’s Death Panels can kill you. Viva le free market, eh?”
GP
How foolish We must look to the world.
Deborah
It’s like the only people left in the GOP besides the crazy people are some stunningly unselfaware old people. And then the ever-diminishing few like Martinez who look around at what “Republican” has come to mean and decide to leave Congress.
HyperIon
Mr. Cole, you do not advance the debate by making untrue statements like “Medicare is socialized medicine.” No, it is not.
Now the VA is socialized medicine. Surely you recognize the difference between Medicare and the VA. PLEASE get your facts straight. Otherwise you just another ignorant American (criticizing other Americans for being ignorant).
I’m mean, how hard is it to get this right?
asiangrrlMN
Medicare IS socialized in that it’s paid for by the government. VA is also socialized. So, I say, if you don’t want socialized insurance, then give up your fucking Medicare first. Then, we will talk about all your concerns about the ebbilness of socialization.
Fuckers. Even if they are old people, they are still fuckers.
gwangung
I posted this elsewhere, but…I find it interesting that
a) nobody even HINTS about talking about Asian systems (you know, those socialist havens of Hong Kong, Japan, Taiwan and South Korea);
b) the vast majority of debate in this country is simply isolated rhetoric with respect to the rest of the world;
c) the usual American pragmatic streak of seeing what works and taking parts from everything they like is completely missing from this “debate.”
This just screams that someone is running a scam. Three guesses who that “someone” is.
El Tiburon
What Bob H said.
Medicare is NOT socialized medicine. Britain has socialized medicine. The VA is socialized medicine. The doctors work directly for the government. The hospitals are owned and operated by the government.
Medicare simply pays out to the private sector.
This is an important distinction and should not be blurred.
Kyle
Here’s the thing about all these town halls: I actually don’t sense one ounce of panic/desperation from the Democrats.
Right. The Dems are ‘desperate’, according to Nooners, while the GOP tools screaming about death camps and “I’m a-skeered!” are the level-headed ones. Magic Dolphin Fantasist and her Reagan-shaped vibrator are wrong, take #48543977001.
I’d like to see the government-hating Medicare-guzzlers’ stampede instinct put to positive use. When they’re worked up into a clown hall-style rage entice them to Go Medical Galt, burn their Medicare cards and renounce any use of Medicare. It’ll save us all money and maybe shut them up for a while as they’re forced to get reacquainted with the harsh reality of the fucked up health insurance system in this country. Search for medical coverage in the private sector you fetishize so much, you senile tools.
swk
Just to clarify, as a couple of commenters have already noted, Medicare is not socialized — it’s a single payer system, in which one entity (the government) pays all claims instead of insurance companies. Hospitals and clinics are privately owned, and medical providers can charge what they want, although Medicare has a set payment schedule (like any insurance company). That’s the system that they have in Canada.
Great Britian, on the other hand, does have socialized medicine, where the government owns all the hospitals, clinics, etc. and most of the doctors are, essentially, civil servants.
El Tiburon
Also what Hyperlon just said. And much better than me.
If I remember correctly, Canada does not have socialized medicine, they just have single payer.
Richard Bottoms
Umm, John please give the DNCC and the DNSC communications directors a call.
I did it early last week with a question about how a single member of Democratic congress could be surprised that these ginned up demonstrations were going to happen at their townhall meetings.
Can’t say it was me that did it but within a day the tone of Democratic response changed.
Call them and tell them they need to run ads stately plainly that Medicare is government run health care. There are just too many seniors who are too stupid to know that.
slippytoad
@Kyle: In order for that to be effective, they would have to understand that Medicare is a government program.
All indications are that the ppl being sent to these events have the IQ of a fucking turnip.
NutellaonToast
Well, it’s more socialized health insurance than medicine. I think that’s an important distinction.
Svensker
@slippytoad:
All indications are that the ppl being sent to these events have the IQ of a fucking turnip.
Personally, I’d say a celibate turnip but, otherwise, agree completely.
John Cole
@HyperIon: Seriously. Do you honestly think the people screaming “TYRANNY” at these debates are going to understand the distinction? I understand what you are saying, but we are talking about the people who screamed socialism at the prospect of the top marginal rate moving from 35 to 38%.
SGEW
One thing I haven’t heard enough of (tho’ Ezra’s touched on it, I think), is that a lot of these elderly people are very worried about their Medicare – specifically, worried about losing benefits. Somehow, this general “entitlement reform” fear has translated into their fear of “ObamaCare”: they seem to think that reforming health care necessarily translates into a worsening or even an end to their current benefits. They don’t care whether Medicare is “soc 1alist” or “single payer” or whatever the fuck – they just know that they’ve got it, and they need it, and they’ve been told that Obama’s plan will somehow (?) take it away. It’s very clever (see, e.g., Krugman on Laffer).
The question is: how can they be disabused of this misapprehension?
Also:
What, now? If anything they’re just relieved that we’ve decided to fuck up our own country, instead of theirs.
Brick Oven Bill
John, do not believe the 35-39% line. This is another lie. That bracket brings in ~$600 billion/yr in revenues. Raising the rate 4% only brings in another $24 billion, even with the assumption of no change in taxpayer behavior.
Good news from Rochester, New York though. Watch out DougJ! Five new members since this short paragraph was written yesterday. This is why I am glad John McCain lost the election.
JenJen
@Unabogie: I was having this exact conversation with my father this morning! Wow.
We’re basically an echo chamber, but that’s the same thing we were saying. Why is it that Republicans, especially in the post-Reagan era, just blatantly lie about everything in order to get elected or to tear down a figure who was elected instead of them?
Laffer Curves, trickle-down economics, Welfare Queens, Unions are the real enemy of all Americans, Scary Black Criminals and Revolving Door Furloughs, Vince Foster, Clinton’s death list, “I’m a uniter, not a divider”, Compassionate Conservatism, WMD, Social Security privitization, “Iraq War protesters are giving aid and comfort to terrorists,” The Dixie Chicks hate America and Americans, Every president targets and fires US Attorneys, “We’re not in a recession,” Republicans are the party of fiscal responsibility, The ’08 Economic Crash is solely the fault of Bill Clinton, all Democratic members of Congress, ACORN and poor people who shouldn’t have gotten mortgages, Barack Obama is a socialist/Nazi/Muslim/racist/illegal alien, Universal Health Care = roving Obama death squads out to kill old people and babies.
Is there anybody who can tell me what that’s all about, and why there is a certain segment of the population that just goes all-in with this kind of stuff, when it is clearly against their social and economic interests?
And more importantly… will it ever end? Because it seems to me that there’s a big opening here for rational Republicans to grab the last segment of the population that doesn’t believe any of that crap, but are still conservatives.
Is Barry Goldwater rolling over in his grave, or what?
HyperIon
@John Cole: regarding who can “understand the distinction”
I’m not addressing the crazies. I am speaking to what YOU wrote. You are mocking these idiots with claims that are false. Why?
Do you know “understand the distinction”? If so, then do not write that medicare is socialized medicine. Unless you are going to start with the very lame “It’s OK for me to distort the truth because the people I am mocking are idiots”. Everyone who makes that argument is also an idiot IMO.
Do better. That is all.
JenJen
@El Cid:
This is a point that I think Michael Moore (who of course is fat and stupid and liberal, but I’ll continue) laid out very well in “Sicko.” He added that college students, in particular, are so debt-laden after graduating that they end up married to jobs they might not like or are not particularly good at, just to pay back their loans and stay healthy. Debt doesn’t explain the entire “health care in America is inexplicably tied to employment status” situation, but it’s part of the puzzle. Debt is like the modern company store, in that sense.
Paul
It’s funny we hear Republicans say that they do not want “faceless bureaucrats” making medical decisions but they have no problem with “private sector” “faceless bureaucrats” daily declining medical coverage and financially ruining good hard working people. And who says that the “private sector” is always right, do we forget failures like Long-Term Capital, WorldCom, Global Crossing, Enron, Tyco, AIG and Lehman Brothers. Of course the federal government will destroy heathcare by getting involved, Oh but wait our military men and women and the Senate and Congress get the best heathcare in the world, and oh, that’s right, its run by our federal government. I can understand why some may think that the federal government will fail, if you look at the past eight years as a current history, with failures like the financial meltdown and Katrina but the facts is they can and if we support them they will succeed.
How does shouting down to stop the conversation of the healthcare debate at town hall meetings, endears them to anyone. Especially when the organizations that are telling them where to go and what to do and say are Republicans political operatives, not real grassroots. How does shouting someone down or chasing them out like a lynch mob advanced the debate, it does not. So I think the American people will see through all of this and know, like the teabagger, the birthers, these lynch mobs types are just the same, people who have to resort to these tactics because they have no leadership to articulate what they real want. It’s easy to pickup a bus load of people who hate, and that’s all I been seeing, they hate and can’t debate. Too bad.
JenJen
I am just a postin’-maniac today! But damn, you are all making such excellent points.
@kay:
I can really only speak professionally of the Food & Beverage industry, but this is something that I feel is really missing from the so-called “debate” about health care, and not just health care, but benefits and labor laws too. I’m not really sure that most Americans realize that F&B workers are, for the most part, freelancers. This applies mostly to any non-management employee working in the front-of-the-house, which are the people you see when you go to restaurants… servers, bartenders, hosts. A big part of my former career was ensuring that the SEIU stayed the hell out of hotels and restaurants so that we could keep things the way they were.
The vast majority of front-of-the-house restaurant workers are paid below the minimum wage (in Ohio, we’re talking $5 bucks an hour; until 2006 it was $2.17/hour). They are entitled to absolutely no benefits outside of mandatory workers’ compensation, overtime after 40 hours, and SSI/disability coverage (restaurants, what with wet floors and sharp knives can be dangerous environments). Restaurant employees do not receive paid time off; if you want a day off, it’s on your own nickle. They do not receive any kind of added compensation, such as time-and-a-half, for working weekends and holidays, mainly because all restaurant workers work weekends and holidays. There is no vacation pay. And of course, there is no health insurance plan. Now, some of the people employed in the industry are covered through their spouse. But a huge portion of the workforce is comprised of young unmarrieds and single parents who have made a career out of F&B, have little options outside that industry, and just roll the dice on health care every single day.
In the current “debate,” nobody seems to be talking about them. F&B is the #1 reason why I am absolutely passionate about and committed to universal health coverage for all.
latts
@JenJen:
but this is something that I feel is really missing from the so-called “debate” about health care, and not just health care, but benefits and labor laws too.
Yeah, I was at a pandemic-preparedness education event a couple of years ago (the big fear was avian flu at the time), and I distinctly remember that during the employers’ panel the discussion was totally dominated by the restaurant association’s insistence that there was no way they could tolerate mandatory paid sick leave, even during a pandemic. Since it was during the GWB administration (and the Homeland Security speaker basically said ‘you’re on your own’ between her folksy anecdotes), no one pointed out to the dumbasses that employees with flu serving food would be bad for business, too. I guess they didn’t actually care about facilitating the spread, though.
Comrade Darkness
@kay: Oh, so true. This kind of movement lives and dies by its martyrs. A persecution complex is a prerequisite for even showing up to chant naïve crap someone gave you in a script because you were told something amorphously “bad” was going to happen otherwise. Total self selection. God, they would flip for a martyr. Do not give them one. Even if the jerkwad totally deserves to be one.
The dems need to grab the bully pulpit on the teevee, unfriendly and twisted as the viewpoints there are. THAT’S where the shouting down needs to happen. Hammer home the truth, in understandable soundbytes, even when the newsperson continues to be a shill, just blow by them. For christssakes, look how much airtime the national media wasted on Orly(?). Clearly they have airtime to burn.
JenJen
@latts: Oh, thank you for bringing that up! I forgot “No paid sick leave for F&B workers.”
Years ago, as an F&B exec for a major hotel chain, I tried, futilly, to adopt a company-wide, mandatory, three-paid-days-off for any F&B employee, from the dishwashers to the stewards, to the kitchen line, to the front-of-the-house, that came to work complaining of or outright exhibiting gastro symptoms.
I was laughed out of the room, but I didn’t stop. I insisted that one day, it was inevitable that one of our facilities would experience an outbreak of Norwich Virus, the bane of all F&B managers, and PR would suffer badly if we didn’t have a policy in place that we could at least point to in the aftermath.
Guess what happened next? You betcha, and it was a high-profile wedding banquet, too. I’m still proud that not only did the policy get adopted, but every manager chain-wide had to be fully aware of it and every employee had to have a copy of the policy. It was also under my insistence that the policy was translated into Spanish.
And sometimes I still wonder why I was targeted during the lay-offs. Funny, innit?
latts
@JenJen:
Y’know, what I really find ironic– and by “ironic,” I mean “sick and unjust”– is that it’s considered perfectly okay for businesses to be imprudent, not plan for crises, take their chances against illness & liability, etc. due to high (to them) costs and deeming the risks too low, but an individual who does the same is a damned irresponsible fool who deserves whatever s/he gets.
Amazing how that works.
jcricket
@JenJen:
It will end, of sorts. There’s no one out there agitating (seriously, anyway) for eliminating the right of women to vote, the return of jim crow laws, the re-illegalization of interracial marriage, etc. Look at what happens when they try and touch Social Security (and heaven help them if they ever tried to disband Medicare).
Stuff takes a long time and there are still fragments of opposition around, but we do make progress.
In other words, it used to be “nigger nigger nigger”, then it was “state’s rights” now it’s “snowflake babies” and other nonsense. It’s getting watered down to the point of ineffectiveness outside the already converted.
Corner Stone
@burnspbesq:
I’ve still never understood what the hell “robust” means in this context. What’s the difference between a robust PO and a PO?
Who uses the word “robust” to describe anything in their life? I had a robust workout. I had a robust meal. I had a robust date. My car is robust. I usually have a shower but since I moved to the new house I take a robust shower.
Corner Stone
@burnspbesq: Ok, with that said. What the hell is gold-plated?
JohnB
I am a doc and a member of PNHP (pnhp.org), a long time supporter of single payer, and the lies of the right have always been outrageous, but now they have indeed become shameless, and it cannot be said too many times, that Medicare is single payer, and single payer is not socialized medicine. I agree that for GM never to even express an interest in single payer has always been a mystery; it might have saved the company and thousands of US jobs. Of course they don’t give a shit about the jobs, those can go to countries like Canada with health care, or to Mexico where nobody cares. And who cares about the truth…single payer would save lives, save money, and provide every American with better health care, and it’s not even on the table. Think we could get the media to call their buddies in Canada, France, or Germany and write about how happy they are with their private medical care, and not about knockin off grandpa.
They might also talks to folks in Autralia, they do speak english, where public and private plans have long functioned side by side remarkably well, but my Australian friends say this could never work in America, because it requires honesty by the various parties iinvolved.
Corner Stone
@burnspbesq:
Not sure it’s needed but I do 100% agree with you here. I used to save Gilliard for my lunchtime reading. Whether I agreed or not, I always enjoyed his stuff. After he passed and I saw more than a few bloggers express surprise that Steve was an African-American I wondered who the hell they thought they had been reading?
Being from the great state of TX, I lay full claim to Molly, FSM bless her and keep her safe in Her noodly appendages.
Martin
That brings in 1/4 of the total expected cost of the health care plan. Since employers and the public are expected to pick up the vast majority of the cost, the only thing the 4% is expected to do is cover the subsidies for low-income workers.
The logical offset to the 4% is to raise the minimum wage so there aren’t so many low-income workers needing subsidies. I’ve discussed the trade-off between top marginal tax rate and minimum wage with a few billionaires or near-billionaires now and they all say that they’d MUCH rather have the top marginal rate hiked. The increase in minimum wage would reduce profits significantly which would affect their returns on investments. Since nobody is touching the cap gains rate, just income rates, they’ll feel almost no impact from a higher marginal rate. Even a 90% rate doesn’t phase them. For them it’s all about keeping the bottom of the wage ladder as low as possible and keeping cap gains low.
They’d be happy to contribute the $24B so long as they didn’t go after the more logical sources. After all, nobody get rich on income. Discussing income taxes as a source of new tax revenue is stupid. The people that can afford to contribute don’t earn money there, and the people that are suffering earn all of theirs there. Jack the cap gains rate back to where it was, put a transaction tax on the stock markets, take an axe to the corporate loopholes, and the deficit will magically vanish.
JenJen
@JohnB:
That is an absolutely illuminating quote. I read it three times before it really sank in.
It’s very good to have your voice here, JohnB.
latts
@JohnB:
That’s what worries me when the healthcare wonks point to healthcare/insurance in Germany and France and Switzerland, because while it’s true that their private insurance is actually very good, that’s apparently because the insurers are heavily and consistently regulated in a way that’s simply not going to happen here. Ever.
JohnB
@ corner stone
robust public option
Maybe a strange word for an insurance company. Mr. Obama has called for a PO “to keep insurance companies honest”. Canada decided this would be impossible. The taxpayer would get stuck with the biggest bills, while the private insurers pursued the profits. Could the US pull this off? So far things don’t look so good. Medicare Advantage plans stiffed the taxpayer, while they shed expensive patients back on the government. Medicare part D made enormous profits for insurance and drug companies, and left patients with their donut holes. Maybe an almighty or an omnipotent public option…
Pug
It’s like the only people left in the GOP besides the crazy people are some stunningly unselfaware old people.
The crazies and the unselfaware old people are the same. After all, the average Fox News viewer is 72 years old. They are the same folks.
Steeplejack
@Martin:
Amen, amen, amen.
Laura W
@Steeplejack: I am going to bed NOW but will leave something I found earlier for you over in the open thread.
zzzzzzzzzzzz
If I can find my way back over there, that is.
Mike Veeshir
I used to think this site was funny.
Now, it stuns me to see you side with union thugs attacking protestors.
I guess dissent is only patriotic when you’re doing.
What bothers me the most is that “The Exalted John Cole” has sunk to the level of siding with the gov’t against protestors.
Unbelievabile.
This isn’t a question of your side winning, this is a question of your gov’t attacking people who don’t agree.
And before you start bleating “But Bush…”, when did he send goons to attack protestors? Cindy Sheehan, before she was no longer any use to you people, had her little circus right next to Bush’s ranch and she was not bothered.
You are despicable.
Paul
Mike Veeshir: It is very American to want to help our fellow countryman. I believe in my government especially our men and women in our military, firefighters and police. You, not so much. Lets face it the previous administration did nothing (except start two wars of choice that are bankrupting our country with all the “war profiteering” contracts to Halliburton) well you and I will just have to agree to not agree. I did not believe any of the Republican rhetoric before the last election and I do not believe them now. I do not believe that your sentiments are in line with the majority, but I did real enjoy your comments, good stuff.