Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

If senate republicans had any shame, they’d die of it.

Boeing: repeatedly making the case for high speed rail.

The media handbook says “controversial” is the most negative description that can be used for a Republican.

At some point, the ability to learn is a factor of character, not IQ.

We are aware of all internet traditions.

After dobbs, women are no longer free.

In after Baud. Damn.

Anyone who bans teaching American history has no right to shape America’s future.

fuckem (in honor of the late great efgoldman)

We cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation.

You’re just a puppy masquerading as an old coot.

When do the post office & the dmv weigh in on the wuhan virus?

Everybody saw this coming.

“I never thought they’d lock HIM up,” sobbed a distraught member of the Lock Her Up Party.

Celebrate the fucking wins.

Balloon Juice, where there is always someone who will say you’re doing it wrong.

The gop is a fucking disgrace.

A sufficient plurality of insane, greedy people can tank any democratic system ever devised, apparently.

T R E 4 5 O N

The rest of the comments were smacking Boebert like she was a piñata.

The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand.

Republican obstruction dressed up as bipartisanship. Again.

Please don’t feed the bears.

This must be what justice looks like, not vengeful, just peaceful exuberance.

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Reader Interactions

337Comments

  1. 1.

    MikeJ

    The video I requested is not available. MSNBC’s lawyers are quick.
    edit: but not as quick as you or me it seems. Now it shows up. I guess I requested it before it was available.

  2. 2.

    Tax Analyst

    John and I will be appearing with Grover Norquist and Paul Weyrich on the show later this week to discuss some joint plans.

    Seriously, DougJ? You’re not spoofing us here, are you?

    That’s really cool!!!

    Congrats!

  6. 6.

    Brian J

    When you are on, I hope you discuss your thoughts on why the Democrats MUST MUST MUST move to the center, act more bipartisan, appoint more Republicans to key cabinet posts, stop planting so many liberals in the media, stop appeasing the terrorists, and work to cut the deficit despite high unemployment…basically, any sort of message that can be taken from Brown’s victory in Massachusetts.

  7. 7.

    kid bitzer

    i don’t give a damn about this election. it didn’t change the basic facts about health care in america.

    go to plan b: pass hcr in whatever way it takes. pass the fucking bill.

  10. 10.

    RedKitten

    Nice — the masthead was visible onscreen for almost half a minute. People pay a shitload of money for that amount of advertising time, and you got it for free.

  14. 14.

    RedKitten

    And can I just say that I have a raging crush on Rachel Maddow? Blisteringly intelligent, funny, wry, cute as a button — she’s got it all.

  15. 15.

    CaseyL

    Later this week? As in, when Cole is post-op and on the good shit?

    Now, that would be Must.See.TV.

    And congrats on the great free advertising!

  16. 16.

    Senyordave

    Thd part of Mass that scares me is that Brown is a GOP clone, he even wants a goddamn tax cut! We have a $400 billion structural deficit and this shit-for-brains thinks we can grow our way out of it! If the people of Mass will vote for such a complete dolt, no matter how bad Coakley was, I think the Democrats are doomed in 2010 unless this recovery is much, much more robust than economists predict.

    Mark my word, by the time the mid-terms roll around, the GOP will have succeeded in convincing most independents that:

    the recession was mostly Obama’s fault, and the steps he took made it worse

    the two wars were going pretty well until Obama took over

    Health care in this country was fine and Obama tried to screw it up

    The one interesting thing will be the people of Mass’ reaction when Brown votes lock-step with the luntaic GOP.

  21. 21.

    eemom

    granted, it’s a bit late for this…….but every January 1 the WaPo has a list of the In’s and Out’s for the new year.

    Out: Jane Hamsher.
    In: John Cole.

    Out: Overton Window.
    In: Obot.

    Tee hee.

  23. 23.

    JasonF

    This isn’t Balloon Juice’s first appearance on the Rachel Maddow show. I once made a comment (about Romney trying to blame the auto-makers’ woes on the unions), which John promoted into a full post, and which Rachel then picked up. I still have it on my Tivo, because I am a pathetic man eager to grasp frantically at anything remotely close to attention.

    Anyway, nice to know Rachel (or one of her staffers, anyway) reads this blog.

  25. 25.

    Steve

    It really doesn’t work for Maddow to read “the Nazis killed 6 million Jews” in that snarky Maddow tone.

  28. 28.

    Senyordave

    One more thing about shitbag Brown – this MILITARY LAWYER thinks waterboarding isn’t torture. I guess when the Khmer Rouge did it was torture when the US of A does it its just patriotic. God help this country.

  30. 30.

    Emo Pantload (fka Studly)

    Just saw on my DVR’d copy of the Maddow show. Congrats BJ!!

    Love the snark in the post, btb.

    @RedKitten Yeah, Mrs. Pantload gets all teen-age-girl giggly about Maddow, herself. Probably a lot of that goin’ around.

  33. 33.

    Mark S.

    That’s the most fucked up question I’ve ever seen. Are you anti-Semitic if you care about people dying of malaria? Why didn’t they pick some shitty UN program or bring up how many unpaid parking tickets UN diplomats have accumulated?

  34. 34.

    ajr22

    I know Coakley sucks, but what the fuck is going on in this country? Massachusetts just elected a republican to replace Kennedy and kill his life long dream. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills here.

  37. 37.

    very reverend crimson fire of compassion

    @Zam: So, just so we’re clear . . . You’re saying we’re not the crazy fuckers?

  38. 38.

    Chris Johnson

    I think part of the good news simply is Rachel Maddow, full stop :)

    Loved her retort to Jon Stewart- “Love you, srsly, but STFU. This is information. As in ‘INFORM’. This is how it’s done.”

    I feel just the same way. Go be the next Cronkite, my dear :)

  40. 40.

    demkat620

    So, how does this end up? Let’s say for the sake of an argument and because these special election winners don’t fair too well in the next election historically, let’s say the National GOP decides this guy is a seat warmer and he better follow the teabag line. What happens when the oh so rational MA voters expect, irrationally, to get real representation?

    What happens if Brown decides he wants to get re-elected? They were very good in this campaign of controlling him and the media. Can do that in a special. Short window. Doesn’t work as an incumbent.

    What happens if Brown decides he wants to get re-elected?

  41. 41.

    DougJ

    This isn’t Balloon Juice’s first appearance on the Rachel Maddow show. I once made a comment (about Romney trying to blame the auto-makers’ woes on the unions), which John promoted into a full post, and which Rachel then picked up.

    Very cool!

  42. 42.

    Emo Pantload (fka Studly)

    @WereBear:

    Took me a re-read to get the snark. I was so excited BJ got the shout-out, I didn’t read the post carefully.

  45. 45.

    Political Pragmatist

    I can’t imagine like anyone or anything having to do with the troll by every definition, Grover Norquist. If Balloon Juice does anything besides kick him in the nuts, I’ll burn this link and never look at it again.

    I’m serious.

  46. 46.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    … to discuss some joint plans.

    If you are planning on smoking some joints then I’m all in! The ability to get stoned and insult those two idiots in your company would be priceless.

    I am out in the garage polishing the wheels on the car and I heard Rachel mention our little part of the intert00bs. I am disappointed that she didn’t mention John’s palm frond waving, foot massaging and candy & fruit feeding minions.

    She didn’t mention Tunch so I am sure that he is pretty pissed at her. Rachel, beware the Tunchinator!

  47. 47.

    Ash Can

    So how many of Rachel’s viewers will come and check out the site and get the vapors from all the naughty words we use?

    In other (hopefully) good news, the point has been raised at the GOS that Joe Lieberman is no longer Vote #60 in the Senate, and as a result may, ahem, find his star on the wane. I’m sure that the Senate is far too clubby, and Harry Ried far too accomodating to all his fellow senators, for Lieberman to lose his parking space and restroom keys and find his office transferred to a janitor’s closet in the basement. However, whether or not he gets all of his phone calls answered immediately, or at all, from now on may be another matter.

  48. 48.

    Brian J

    @ajr22:

    Maybe Massachusetts residents have decided to emulate British voters, who, among other things, decided to vote Churchill out of office after World War II.

  51. 51.

    John Cole

    @demkat620: Bayh and Webb pretty clearly signaled HCR is going down, and there is no chance cap and trade or a solid financial regulation bill passes. The activists are already hard at work pulling the party apart at the seams, and when the bodies start piling up in AfPak and the CRE bomb goes off and we get the double dip, we will probably lose the House and be down to 51 in the Senate. After that- bullshit half measures and little more until the GOP wins in 2012.

    Meanwhile, Jane at FDL, has pronounced the DNC is to blame and implied sexism because they stated Coakley was a bad candidate. Jane then went on to claim Corzine and Deeds were good candidates. Yes, Corzine, who was hated by NJ voters and polling 20 points behind, the ex Goldman Sachs guy, was a good candidate, according to Jane. This is the same Hamsher who a couple weeks ago was talking about the anti-corporate stance of most America, but all of a sudden a Goldman guy down 20 points in the polls is a good candidate.

    Meanwhile, Peter Daou has his post-mortem up, and surprise surprise, he lays the blame on Rahm and Obama for not…. listening to the NetRoots enough.

    I don’t have the strength to read Sirota or Stranahan.

    I’m surrounded by fucking morons.

  52. 52.

    zoe kentucky in pittsburgh

    Joe Lieberman is no longer Vote #60 in the Senate, and as a result may, ahem, find his star on the wane.

    May be the best scoop of schadenfreude I’ve tasted all day. Yum!

  55. 55.

    ajr22

    China is just going to rape us, our government is useless. All they can do is not collect taxes from rich people, and give the rest of our money to the pentagon to bomb furriners.

  58. 58.

    Ash

    @John Cole:
    1) inhale
    2) deeeeeeeep breath
    3) look at Lily
    4) feel the love
    5) look at Tunch
    6) remember he hates you
    7) drink whiskey
    8) hibernate
    9) wake up in 3 years and the world will be over anway

  59. 59.

    Alex S.

    I have to be a bit contrarian about the blame of this loss. Coakley would have won easily if Brown’s message had not resonated with a lot of people in Massachusetts. The turnout was higher than expected, people actually went to the polls for Brown, they didn’t just stay home because of Coakley.
    And remember, Brown nationalized the race. There is a lot of anti-establishment anger around. The Dems should have exploited that a little more, even if Nelson or Landrieu wouldn’t have liked that. They should have forced a few filibusters maybe.
    The Republicans will now try to run as the anti-establishment guys and put all the blame on Obama. Is it justified? Of course not, but that’s how it’s going to be and frankly, I don’t see the willingness on the democratic side to fight these accusations. Obama is staying above it all, the blue dogs and centrists are backstabbing the liberal democrats with all their stupid demands (Stupak… no medicare expansion…) and the liberals are playing all or nothing.
    I read about the stunning inability of the Coakley campaign. I also read about their lack of money. Not only her campaign missed the closing race, the DSCC and their head Sen. Menendez missed it, too. Maybe Tim Kaine, head of the DNC, can be excluded, today is his first day out of office. But the republican party has got a national task-force now that is willing to provide the basic support that a campaign needs to get going. Obama’s activists have been almost dormant since the election. What a waste….
    Everyone took this race for granted and you just can’t do that anymore.

  62. 62.

    cleek

    the sheer incompetence of the Dem party here is enough to turn me off.

    i can handle the adjustments to ideology required to work the system. i can just barely tolerate Reid’s spineless cowardship. but getting completely flanked like this, by a cheesecake GOPbot, in Kennedy’s seat, which HCR hangs in the balance ?

    what the fuck kind of idiots are running the party?

    i used to be able to think of the Dems as some kind of bulwark against GOP malice. now, they can’t even hold ground which should repel Republicans like a DEET factory repels mosquitoes.

    worthless. totally fucking worthless.

    not another dime until they show signs of spine. not another dime.

  63. 63.

    Zam

    @John Cole: Despite the crazy shitfest happening on our side, I don’t think republicans are gonna grab control of anything in 2010. I don’t doubt that we will lose quite a bit, but the repubs aren’t gonna be able to replicate what happened in MA on a consistent basis. First just look at NY-23, they will no doubt be putting up some seriously shitty teabaggers themselves and not every dem will be as lazy as Coakley. Personally I’m hoping that this win will embolden some of the teabaggers, it’s the least I can hope for after this, and they will try and bring a little extra crazy to other races. Dems are also gonna need to point out that killing off Coakley to send a message didn’t work when the repubs inevitably filibuster every other thing we try. Still since nothing will get done and every legislative battle will look as shitty as the Healthcare debate we will lose some seats, but I don’t think enough to lose total control of either chamber. Well that’s my take at least.

    Zam+4

  64. 64.

    Violet

    @John Cole:
    How did it happen that the Dems are now the ones tearing themselves apart with interparty fighting, when just a few months ago the Republicans were being torn asunder by the teabaggers?

    Maybe it means the parties are the things that are broken. If only we could figure out how to create viable third parties or get Independents elected. That would shake things up.

  65. 65.

    McMartin

    @John Cole: What exactly can Bayh and Webb do to stop Pelosi from having the House pass the Senate bill as-is and then send it from there straight to Obama’s desk? Pelosi’s been delivering a lot more regularly than Reid, that’s for sure.

    Unless the House has their own manic progressives that she can’t rein in, but that strikes me as a bit less likely…

  66. 66.

    mistersnrub

    More and more w/r/t American Civics, I find the following clip to eloquently summarize my feelings:

  69. 69.

    FormerSwingVoter

    Dear Balloon Juice,

    Health Care Reform passes just fine without Coakley’s vote. It already passed through the Senate, meaning the House can approve that bill without it ever going back. Step away from the ledge.

  72. 72.

    BR

    I’ve been calling my congressman for several days already asking him to vote to pass the senate version of health care reform. I don’t care that it’s not perfect – we can’t let the 9 months they spent on it go to waste.

    I think everyone here should be calling their reps demanding the same.

  74. 74.

    maye

    I read somewhere today that Pelosi said she doesn’t have 218 votes to pass the Senate bill as is. Maybe the loss tonight will change that dynamic.

  75. 75.

    Jim

    My god. What a total fucking meltdown over losing one seat in the Senate. Not that it isn’t a big deal, but OpenLeft just declared that the Dems just lost the Nov mid-terms and 2012. And of course, it’s all Obama’s fault. Glad I’m not watching political TeeVee

  76. 76.

    Calming Influence

    @John Cole:
    This is not all FireDogLake’s fault; you have to admit that the rest of us didn’t start cheerleading compromise early or loudly enough.

  77. 77.

    Sanka

    I read somewhere today that Pelosi said she doesn’t have 218 votes to pass the Senate bill as is. Maybe the loss tonight will change that dynamic.

    Yeah. If the House Dems are smart, or rather, want to keep their jobs, there will be even fewer votes to pass the bill. Unless, of course, they want to get teabagged, a la Coakley.

  79. 79.

    Irony Abounds

    @WereBear: While I’m no Harry Reid fan, I think he’s a terrible Majority Leader, Pelosi doesn’t have to deal with screwed up rules that require a 60% majority. Consequently, the blue dogs in the House don’t create the same problems as the douchebag Dems in the Senate. Pelosi gets things done because she can, not because she has an special ability as Speaker.

  81. 81.

    Jim

    @maye:
    I imagine the promise of an immediate jobs bill will loosen up the House gridlock. Weiner and Nadler are gonna have to walk back from the ledge, I think.

  82. 82.

    BlueDWarrior

    I listened to most of Brown’s acceptance speech on MSNBC of what they showed of it.

    I think if Reid somehow makes them use actual filabusters that Brown will be the pointman because of his long incredibly unbroken sentence moving from topic to topic (which no one had a chance to interrupt because it was really quite hypnotic).

  83. 83.

    jwb

    @McMartin: The way the Dems can assure they will lose the Senate and House in 2010 is to show that they can’t get anything done. That might be fine with Webb and Bayh, but I can’t see the rest of the Dems signing up for that suicide squad. So I think they’ll figure out some way to move forward.

  84. 84.

    cleek

    @Sanka:

    Yeah. If the House Dems are smart, or rather, want to keep their jobs, there will be even fewer votes to pass the bill. Unless, of course, they want to get teabagged, a la Coakley.

    they’re gonna get teabagged anyway. they’re not going to take it easy on anyone with a D next to their name. the teabaggers aren’t out to get better Dems, they’re out to get more and better Republicans.

    fuck, right in the eye, any Dem who runs now.

  85. 85.

    Jim

    @Irony Abounds: @WereBear:

    While I’m no Harry Reid fan, I think he’s a terrible Majority Leader, Pelosi doesn’t have to deal with screwed up rules that require a 60% majority

    also too, nobody else in the Senate wants Reid’s job. Certainly not anybody we, or even the larger party would want to have it. I’m sure the Neidermeyerish little shit Bayh would love it, just like Harold Ford wanted Howard Dean’s job. And I’m not sure but I do think Pelosi and her leadership team have more clout with individual members than is possible in the Senate.

  86. 86.

    jcricket

    Can you imagine Republicans going on the news after they lost some big seat and declaring that they would wait until that new Democrat got seated to keep legislating/voting?

    I agree that this shouldn’t be the end of the world, but we make it that way.

    I’m mad as fucking hell at the Democrats. Mad at them for losing. Mad at them for buying the Republican frame and turning this into more than it is. And probably soon to be mad at them for wasting a once-in-a-generation chance to implement some kind of healthcare reform. Not to mention immigration reform being dead, deficits likely to balloon, jobless rate not going to go down (no jobs bill now that’s not basically a tax cut for the rich), lower taxes on the rich, infrastructure in America still shitty.

    Will we ever wake up? Will it be too late? Will we basically be Haiti by then?

    But I’m not going to start voting independent or stop voting because of it. I know how much damage every single additional Republican does to this country and the world, and that’s too important for me to “take my ball and go home” – no matter how much the elected Democrats follow that same route.

  87. 87.

    Sanka

    How did it happen that the Dems are now the ones tearing themselves apart with interparty fighting,

    Maybe because the only reason that the Dems gained the majority back in 2006 in the first place was the influx of moderate…say it with me..MO-DER-ATE…Dems from red states. Not progressive liberals. But moderates.

    Trying to stick a square peg in a round hole convince yourself that the country is left of center and therefore, need to enact leftwing policies, is a recipe for disaster. Talk about ideological purity.

    Republicans havent done anything the past few months. They just stepped back and let the Democrats make arses of themselves. If Democrats listened to Obama’s stupid “deadlines” for healthcare reform, a bill would be signed already. Kudos!

  88. 88.

    zoe kentucky in pittsburgh

    Watching The Daily Show right now…

    According to Larry Wilmore, black senior correspondent, the biggest lesson learned from the past year is that “negros are not magic.” Obama is also “suffering from the hard bigotry of high expectations.” Actually the whole segment is sort of a stick-in-the-eye to all of his critics on both sides. Nicely done.

    Too freaking funny.

  90. 90.

    K. Grant

    @McMartin: Exactly.

    As for the House – my guess is that they really don’t want to go to the polls this November with the dead albatross (“Albatross!”) of another failed attempt at health care draped across their shoulders. They will realize that no matter how much they might hate the bill in its Senate form, they will realize that this gets passed now, and right now, or never (or another 15-20 years which is as close as makes no never mind).

  94. 94.

    Jim

    But can they do a deal before the SOTU on the 27th….. seems like a bridge too far.

    Vote on a jobs bill? No, you’re probably right, but they can get it written and change the subject. Play offense. And unemployment/economic anxiety was the non-Coakley factor in this race, not health care. IMHO.

  95. 95.

    AkaDad

    I expect the Democrats will learn an important lesson here tonight and the lesson is, we need to cut marginal and capital gains taxes. And deregulate stuff. Also.

  96. 96.

    Chad S

    @John Cole: Bayh and Webb didn’t say that they would filibuster the HCR bill(if it came back to the Senate at all, which I don’t think it will).

  97. 97.

    maye

    @Jim:

    No, I meant promise 218 members anything they want on a jobs bill in exchange for passing the Senate version of the HC bill by the 27th.

  98. 98.

    PeakVT

    Turns out I should be happy my access to the introns is hosed – no chance of getting caught up in the online blame game.

    Snark on, Juicers.

  99. 99.

    Jim

    @Chad S:
    No, but Webb said they shouldn’t vote on HRC until Brown is seated, which amounts to the same thing. He wants someone else to do his filibusterin’ for him. And Lieberman is now saying the Senate bill is too radical for him. But if the House bites the bullet and votes it through, I believe it goes right to Obama.

    @maye: Well, I’m not sure, but I’m hoping that everyone will calm down a little over the next couple of days and think of, as K Grant puts it, the albatross of failed HCR. I know she gets a lot of shit, but Pelosi seems to be pretty effective.

  100. 100.

    FormerSwingVoter

    Conversation with my former-hippie mom:

    MOM: Well, it’s like I’ve always said, people get the government that they deserve.

    FSV: So… what? You vote against your own best interests, then bitch when you don’t get the results you want?

    MOM: We tried to change the world back in the day… but we didn’t.

    FSV: BECAUSE YOU STOPPED TRYING.

    Never. Stop. Trying.

  101. 101.

    Mark S.

    @John Cole:

    Bayh and Webb pretty clearly signaled HCR is going down, and there is no chance cap and trade or a solid financial regulation bill passes.

    To be fair, if the shoe were on the other foot, I’m sure Mitch McConnell and John McCain would be saying the same thing.

    Oh wait, no they wouldn’t. Democrats are such pussies.

    edit: I see jcricket said the same thing earlier.

  102. 102.

    maye

    @Jim:

    If she can make this happen, she wins pol of the year. But you may recall, she barely got 218 the first time around. It actually makes some sense to put through the Senate bill’s insurance reforms, then do the public option stuff later in the budget rec. process. I can’t see why she couldn’t sell that. Unless everyone is going to ground after tonight’s election result. Which, in their inimitable lily-livered way, they certainly could.

  103. 103.

    Chad S

    @Jim: Thats exactly what happens. If the House passes the Senate bill unaltered, it goes straight to the President(and the Senate can’t possibly stop it). I don’t think much of Pelosi as a leader, but she doesn’t speak in absolutes unless she’s counted the votes and she was pretty clear on the bill today(so was Hoyer to some extent). The liberals in the House might not like the Senate bill, but if Reid writes up the reconciliation changes to their liking(They could even wait until after the budget passes and get the changes in the bill before they vote on it), they’ll hold their nose and pass it.

  105. 105.

    Davis X. Machina

    I think we’ll see this has all the long-term significance of Harris Wofford’s win in ’91.

  106. 106.

    Tomlinson

    This is great news! For single-payer!

    Probably true, if by single-payer you mean “medicaid.”

  107. 107.

    Cat Lady

    @zoe kentucky in pittsburgh:

    Once again, the fate of the Republic is in Jon Stewart’s hands.

    Our media sucks hard. The Village must be burned to the ground, the earth salted with their tears, and the laments of their women ringing in our ears.

  108. 108.

    Jim

    @maye:
    If she can make this happen, she wins pol of the year. But you may recall, she barely got 218 the first time around.

    Yes, but the Senate bill is much more conservative, so she may be able to get some Blue Dogs back, and I have a hard time believing Anthony Wiener will kill this bill, esp with that hope of reconciliation. I think Bayh and Webb may just be the wake up call that those with Firebaggerish leanings may need.

    as for meaningful financial regulation, I’m with Matt Yglesias: Abandon all hope for bipartisanship, take a stand, fight, fight loud and name names. I think Coakley bears the biggest share of the blame for this loss (just read that I’m throwing her under that damn bus… goodness, I am a cruel and ruthless O-bot), but she’s right that if Obama and the Dems had gone after those malefactors of great wealth a month ago, this might’ve been a very different outcome.

  109. 109.

    slag

    @John Cole: See…And here I thought we’d have to wait until 2010 for that exact scenario to start to play itself out. But wait a second..It is 2010!

    There’s a curse word I’m looking for here, but I just can’t put my finger on it…oh yeah…Goddamnshitfuckhell. Did I miss any?

  110. 110.

    Phaedrus

    Could someone walk me through it…. the House has a bill, the Senate has a bill.

    what next – I hear about the House passing it onto Obama, but that there’s a reconciliation step in there somewhere (I’m guessing nothing new can come up in that step.)

    thanks

  112. 112.

    Chad S

    @Jim: That might be the net positive for the Dems: they don’t have to pander to Droopy Dog or Nebraska Jowls on the bill, so they can put out a tough bill to force the GOP to filibuster it, which would be terrible optics for them(siding with Wall Street). Same thing with immigration reform.

  113. 113.

    cat48

    @AlexS No, OFA O’s activist’s did phone banks all weekend. I live in SC & called god forsaken MA which I know nothing about. People from nearby states came to MA to work GOTV. Do not blame this on OFA, Obama’s campaign arm.

  114. 114.

    Chad S

    @Phaedrus: The House can pass the Senate bill unaltered and it goes to Obama immediately. The Dems have left a slot for reconciliation open in the new budget(that will be on the docket within a month) presumably for health care reform alterations to any passed bill. They need 51 votes for that since its a budget bill(and they don’t have to invoke the Byrd rule).

  115. 115.

    slag

    @mcd410x: Wait a second. So, we’re giving PUMA credit for scuttling this election? The election of what would have been the first female Senator of Massachusetts?

    Interesting.

  116. 116.

    Mark S.

    @Phaedrus:

    The two bills are very different. The House could just pass the Senate bill, but I don’t know how likely that is. They barely passed the House bill.

    I’m not sure what everyone is talking about concerning reconciliation. I guess they mean down the road when Congress passes the next budget they’ll put some of the things in the House bill in it, but I wouldn’t hold my breath.

  117. 117.

    Tax Analyst

    John Cole said:

    I’m surrounded by fucking morons.

    Like I said the other night, “Clowns to the left of me/Jokers to the right/…”

    It’s gotta be your song for January of 2010.

  119. 119.

    Alex S.

    @Phaedrus:

    Well, each law needs to pass both chambers. At the moment there are two laws waiting to get passed by the other chamber. Usually, you’d make a conference to find a compromise that is acceptable to both chambers. This compromise however must, once again, get 60 votes to cut off the debate about it in the Senate.
    However, you could also simply take one of the already passed bills and try to get it through the other chamber. And well… the Senate needs 60% of the quorum to get something passed (by today’s rules), but the House only needs 50% – so you better take Senate bill and pass it in the House.
    You simply ignore the House bill – but you get a bill to Obama’s desk.

    The House bill has got no chance of passing in the Senate – it simply won’t get the 60 votes. The only way to pass a bill with a simple 50 vote majority is to pass it via “reconciliation” – that is meant to say, you pass a bill to “reconcile” the annual budget with all the other expenses. In reality, you just need a bill that directly affects the budget (by raising a tax, for example). Unfortunately, you can’t combine budgetary issues with non-budgetary issues, so it has got to be a bill that is completely focussed on the budget. This bill can pass with 50 votes and some measures of health-care reform fit that bill, the public option for example, or the cadillac tax. Industry regulations, for example, do not. So it makes sense to keep the Senate bill and the regulations therein and pass the other stuff via reconciliation.

    One other caveat, you have to attach the “reconciliation” option to the annual budget bill and I am not sure if the way to reconciliation is still open in 2010.
    And another thing, reconciliation bills are limited to a 10-year duration, like the Bush tax cuts, for example. So buying into the public health-care option when you know it might only exist for a few years, is a risky move.

  120. 120.

    Alex S.

    @cat48:

    Sorry, I guess I am just lashing around for a while. But in hindsight, it is stunning how noone saw it coming, that is, noone on the democratic side.

  121. 121.

    Chad S

    @Alex S.: Thats true about the 10 year window, but: if the reforms are popular, there’s no way the GOP would try and block them when they came up for renewal and if the reforms suck, the Dems will strip them out(or heavily modify them) before those 10 years are up. The conservatives made a lot of noise about repealing medicare, only to never actually try it because it was political suicide.

  123. 123.

    cat48

    @Alex S. That’s ok, but we do work when asked. Tim Kaine’s last day as Mayor was yesterday. He will be more engaged from now on with the DNC. Coakley was on vacation for 2 weeks when Obama was. Obama was busy from Xmas up thru the wk in Jan thanks to the panty bomber. I’m not sure he could have done much re: campaigning until after the terror report was completed.

  124. 124.

    KDP

    @kid bitzer: I have written to my congresscritter, Pete Stark, asking for exactly that. If they pass the Senate bill, as imperfect as it is, the groundwork is laid for future enhancements and adjustments.

  126. 126.

    Fern

    I could use a civics lesson myself – what do people mean when they say the president is the leader of the party? This does not make sense to me.

  127. 127.

    Brian J

    @Zam:

    It’s almost certain we will lose at least 10-15 seats in the House, if only because the political climate might be difficult and many of the seats we won in the last two elections are in swing districts. But the 40+ seats necessary to retake the House? I just don’t see it, unless things get a lot worse. Also, never underestimate a Republican’s ability to get caught in a bathroom with a small boy, or something else that could make a few districts suddenly competitive.

    As far as the Senate goes, it’s certainly possible that we could lose a few seats. But really, things have to go awfully well for the Republicans and pretty terribly for the Democrats for us to lose enough seats to bring us down to 50 or 51. Again, I just don’t see it. In fact, I will go against the grain and say that we stand decent chances of picking up a few seats if we play our cards right.

    And 2012? If things suck, all bets are off. But if they are where they are now, not horrendous but not great, or if they are somewhat better, Obama will almost certainly win, if only because they are likely to nominate awful candidates for anyone who isn’t a wingnut. Aside from perhaps Romney or some Southern governor whose name isn’t garbage, who is going to be their candidate? Palin? Huckabee? Sanford? Pawlenty? Jindal? Cantor? Boehner? McConnell? Ask yourself or anyone else to name three candidates who are both acceptable to the party base and acceptable to the country as a whole. I can’t.

  128. 128.

    Jason Bylinowski

    Well, what can I say that hasn’t been said already?

    This is unquestionably a pretty bad day for Team Demmy. Thankfully, I live in a very conservative area, in which several people know of my liberal leanings, and as a result I heartily welcome being beaten about the face and neck rhetorically by my conservative overlords.

    What is the lesson that the people in power need to take away from this? The sadness of it is that there is no new lesson, save the old Molly Ivins standby that “you have to dance with them what brung you” (I say it here as almost a dirge), by which I mean that if you field a shitty candidate, how can you expect anything but the same kind of end result?

    Even though Brown is very likely a less than optimal sort of guy from where I stand, at least it can be said that he was no slouch. Healthcare MIGHT be dead as result of this; it may not. I can’t say I was too excited about it anyway, but surely the people in Washington can see clearly now that NOT getting it passed is only going to make things stronger for the opposition? Can we at last agree, both the John Coles and the Jane Hamshers of the left, that what we really need right now is some solidarity in the party? It’s hard to believe that hard-left activism come 2012 is going to win anything but yet another righteous, but pointless, loss. I know we Democrats are famous for that but it’s time to do what the GOP does so well: concentrate on the contest as a contest, viewing the win as an end in itself. It is shallow, I know. But I think it’s going to be crucial, as is the complete and utter abandonment of any pretense of bipartisanship. That ship has sailed and sunk already.

    Can anyone tell that I am rehearsing for what I am going to say at work tomorrow? Such concessions have to seem natural, dammit.

  129. 129.

    Phoenix Woman

    Martha Coakley had a lead over Scott Brown until she was forced to defend the abomination known as the Ben Nelson amendment to the Senate HCR bill:

    http://phoenixwoman.wordpress.com/2010/01/19/how-many-other-dems-have-been-hurt-by-this/

    About the only good thing from this mess is that the Dem leadership’s been forced to admit what we’ve known all along: That reconciliation of the Senate HCR bill was and is an option. If they’d pursued that option three months ago, Martha Coakley would have made an acceptance speech tonight, not a concession speech.

  130. 130.

    YellowJournalism

    If Maddow is reading this blog, then she should send John some flowers when he gets his surgery. Or at least an e-card.

  131. 131.

    Thoroughly Pizzled

    @cleek: Good lord. The most bizarre thing in the world is the worship of Howard Dean among the netroots, usually by the same people who accuse others of being O-bots. There’s a significant amount of people who want him to primary Obama.

    It’s not like Dean and Obama are all that different…

  132. 132.

    Midnight Marauder

    @Phoenix Woman:

    Martha Coakley had a lead over Scott Brown until she was forced to defend the abomination known as the Ben Nelson amendment to the Senate HCR bill

    Do you seriously believe that is what led to Martha Coakley losing this election? That she defended the actions of Ben Nelson? Seriously?

    Edit: I mean, come on now. That is just outright bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit. Of all the possible reasons that you could substantiate a blog post with, that has got to be so far away from ever even being considered a contender for the list. Just some of the craziest stuff I’ve ever heard, really.

  135. 135.

    jenniebee

    @RedKitten:

    And can I just say that I have a raging crush on Rachel Maddow? Blisteringly intelligent, funny, wry, cute as a button—she’s got it all.

    You ain’t kidding – she’s adorable. When the socons want to argue that homosexuality is contagious, the number of women in this country who are Gay for Rachel should be exhibit #1.

  138. 138.

    Davis X. Machina

    22% of Dems voted for someone who will systematically oppose abortion rights to send a message that supporting abortion rights is non-negotiable?

  141. 141.

    Phoenix Woman

    @gwangung:
    Got examples? The Coakley folks say it matches theirs:

    The adviser pointed to internal polling to argue that Coakley held a wide — 20 point — lead on Dec. 19, and that the damage she took between that survey and a Jan. 5 Rasmussen poll putting the race at 9 points came from the national scene: The Senate vote on health care, with the controversy over Ben Nelson’s deal for Nebraska, and the Christmas Day bombing.

  142. 142.

    Phoenix Woman

    @Midnight Marauder:

    Ahem:

    The adviser pointed to internal polling to argue that Coakley held a wide — 20 point — lead on Dec. 19, and that the damage she took between that survey and a Jan. 5 Rasmussen poll putting the race at 9 points came from the national scene: The Senate vote on health care, with the controversy over Ben Nelson’s deal for Nebraska, and the Christmas Day bombing.

    She was ahead by 20 points a month ago. Then she was forced to defend Ben Nelson’s anti-choice monstrosity — something that Teddy himself would have been hard put to finesse.

  145. 145.

    Jim

    @Ash Can:

    I didn’t follow the primary closely, but from what I’ve read since, Capuano is a happy warrior, someone who likes retail campaigning. Compare that to “What am I supposed to do? Go out and shake hands in the cold?”

  146. 146.

    Midnight Marauder

    @Phoenix Woman:

    Is that coming from the same group who also said this:

    [Pollster Celinda] Lake argued that the underfunded campaign didn’t have money for tracking polls, and so didn’t see Republican Scott Brown’s comeback until it was well underway. The campaign also didn’t have money, she said, for television ads that could have shaped a populist message and defined her opponent as a friend of Wall Street.

    @Phoenix Woman:

    She was ahead by 20 points a month ago. Then she was forced to defend Ben Nelson’s anti-choice monstrosity—something that Teddy himself would have been hard put to finesse.

    She went on vacation for over a fortnight in the middle of a short election and outright mocked the very idea of campaigning. Ben Nelson’s sweetheart deal and the Undiebomber were the very least of her problems.

  147. 147.

    Martin

    I have to say, that move by Maddow was probably the most irresponsible minute of journalism I’ve ever witnessed. Us as sources? Has she ever read the comments here?

  148. 148.

    Jason Bylinowski

    @Phoenix Woman: You are being an incredible naif. To imply that she lost because of optics on one healthcare amendment….I don’t even know what to say to that, are there even words? The polling may in fact match, that is possible, but have you ever heard of this new luncheon meat that I like? It’s called Red Herring, and it is singularly good. Seriously, just quit it.

  150. 150.

    Jim

    @Phoenix Woman:

    Ben Nelson’s deal for Nebraska was, IIRC, about Medicare/Medicaid reimbursements. It was part of the general confusion/resentment about HRC, but didn’t really have much to do, at that point, with abortion. I realize a lot of people, particularly Martha Coakley and the people who ran her campaign, would like to blame this loss on someone other than Martha Coakley and the people who ran her campaign, but this doesn’t hold up.

  151. 151.

    jwb

    @Chad S: “That might be the net positive for the Dems: they don’t have to pander to Droopy Dog or Nebraska Jowls on the bill, so they can put out a tough bill to force the GOP to filibuster it, which would be terrible optics for them(siding with Wall Street).”

    Only works if conservadems don’t join the filibuster to give the goopers cover. And you know very well that the conservadems will give the goopers cover. Still I think you are right that the other Dems–and especially Obama–nevertheless have to get themselves positioned against the bankers. I really think the teabaggers hate the bankers more than we do. And the independents aren’t too fond of them either.

  152. 152.

    Phoenix Woman

    Now that the 60-seat majority is toast, so is the pretense that the Dems needed it to get anything done on HCR:

    — “Even before Massachusetts and that race was on the radar screen, we prepared for the process of using reconciliation,” said Chris Van Hollen of Maryland, chairman of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee.

    — “Getting health-care reform passed is important,” Van Hollen said in an interview on Bloomberg Television’s “Political Capital with Al Hunt,” airing this weekend. “Reconciliation is an option.”

    Not only is it an option, it’s the only way it was ever going to pass. The Republicans won’t vote for it, and the Conservadems had to be allowed to trash it before they reluctantly agreed to vote for it. The ‘rush’ strategy won’t work as the House won’t pass the Senate bill as it currently exists.

  153. 153.

    asiangrrlMN

    YAY for the Rachel shout-out. I have a massive massive crush on her (as does, apparently, every other woman on this blog). It’s cool to see two things I enjoy collide.

    As for Mass., it just reminds me that no matter what, there are still plenty of people who will cut off their noses to spite their faces (huh. I wrote spit at first). In addition, I guess the fact that they have theirs is enough to make them not care if the rest of the country gets it, too.

    Whatever.

  154. 154.

    jenniebee

    @John Cole: The more I look at it, the more I think that the true devastation that was done to HCR was done every day of the sixteen years since the Clintons lost it the last time. If Dems had done what Republicans do on every issue from Milton Friedman’s wacky theories to mid-east policy to energy and everything in between, they’d have spent the time laying the groundwork in the media and in the think tanks. They’d have had no end of education sessions inside the beltway, there would have been articles placed in publications for years about the growing crisis… by now every senator and most congressmen would be experts on the health insurance industry and every person in the country would have no doubt that the health care problem is widespread, potentially fatal to them and their families, and that it threatened the solvency of Medicare.

    Instead, a tight group of dedicated libs and policy wonks only discussed it in their own echo chamber. There was no popular foundation laid to explain why health care reform was such a big deal. I still think that the popular level of information on the subject is so low that expanding Medicare could be sold to the public as a “compromise” solution between the public option and the status quo.

  155. 155.

    Jim

    Only works if conservadems don’t join the filibuster to give the goopers cover. And you know very well that the conservadems will give the goopers cover.

    I say let’em. We need to change the subject, the narrative, if you like. And I’m not so sure Evan Bayh and Blanche Lincoln want to get on that side of this fight.

  157. 157.

    Jennifer

    Haven’t read all the comments, but have seen the Dem co-bags jumping ship on HCR all over the place, and they need a message: figure out a way to get it done, or we’re staying home this fall.

    At least I will be. If these worthless fucks pissed away this entire last year only to deliver NOTHING, I’ll not be voting again, because what’s the point? The Republicans win, fuck up the country to the point that people finally get pissed off enough to let the Democratic losers try their hand at things, and then they do NOTHING, leading in short order to the Republicans, now crazier than before, getting re-elected, fucking up the country even MORE, and the cycle repeating itself.

    Nothing gets fixed. It just gets steadily shittier in cycles of every 10 – 15 years. No point in wasting your time going to the polls if the net outcome is just a steady descent into a shittier and shittier country, interrupted briefly every 10 years or so by a period where things stay at the same level of shittiness for 4 – 8 years before resuming their inevitable further descent.

  159. 159.

    asiangrrlMN

    @Phoenix Woman: If this is true, then it means people are just fucking stupid–which I actually believe.

    God, how much further do we have to dumb down our political discourse?

    @Martin: Heh. Funny. But, I do have to say that the commenters on this blog are incredibly well-informed (for the most part).

    @jenniebee: I do think, in general, that women have more fluid sexualities than men–which would account for all the Rachel love.

  160. 160.

    Brick Oven Bill

    I think it is great that you will be on MSNBC John Cole and DougJ. This makes me very happy.

    But the TV show might be even better if you got some Teabagging yahoo who works in a warehouse to participate.

    I know you don’t influence MSNBC things, so I understand.

    But I’ll pay my expenses.

    This could be a good TV show.

  161. 161.

    mcd410x

    When is an 18-vote majority a minority?

    The ironic thing is that the GOP would completely double down after something like this.

    As Jon Stewart said: The Republicans are playing chess and the Dems are in the nurses office because, once again, they glued their balls to their thigh.

  162. 162.

    jwb

    @Mark S.: the original house vote was misleading for various reasons, but Pelosi could have had considerably more votes for it had she needed them. I think it’s really a question of whether the House believes the Senate capable of holding up its part of the bargain in making other changes during reconcilliation. I don’t know whether the Senate has even the 50 votes to clear a lot if stuff. So, yeah, it might be that reconcilliation budget reconcilliation has to first to assure the rightfully suspicious House members that the Senate will do what it needs to.

  163. 163.

    Sly

    @John Cole:

    Victory has a thousand fathers and defeat is an orphan.

    The only worthwhile lesson to take from this debacle is that you can’t take anything for granted. Politics is serious bidness, and assuming victory is a fait accompli is never the smart position to take. But Coakly’s campaign took it, the national party took it, a great deal of the activists took it, and every Democratic and left-leaning voter in MA who stayed home took it.

    Simply put, up until a few weeks ago, too many people assumed that as long as you have a (D) after your name, you will automatically win any election in Massachusetts. That now so many of the same people are assuming that there are ideological implications in this is not helping, and will likely make the situation worse.

    Both Hamsher and Bayh can’t both be right. But they certainly can both be wrong. And likely are.

    @Phoenix Woman:

    About the only good thing from this mess is that the Dem leadership’s been forced to admit what we’ve known all along: That reconciliation of the Senate HCR bill was and is an option. If they’d pursued that option three months ago, Martha Coakley would have made an acceptance speech tonight, not a concession speech.

    Reconciliation is less of an option, due to the nature of the process, than the House passing the Senate version unmodified (which would require no further action on the part of the Senate). But keep trying to put a happy face on this clusterfuck if you like.

    Here’s a little tidbit that should help: Thirty million people will continue to have no health insurance, and more than twice that will continue to have shitty health insurance, because too many people were more concerned about being right than being fair.

  164. 164.

    GregB

    Surely Marcia Martha Coakley will be given the President McCain treatment by the media and her every utterance will be reported upon as though it were the sermon from the mountain and she’ll be the go to person for sound-bites and opinions by all of the news outlets and she’ll be the guest of David Gregory for the next 8 weeks straight.

    -G

  165. 165.

    Ash Can

    Also, the folks out on the ledge should think of what kind of position Scott Brown is in now. He got a big cheer tonight when he said he’d do Teddy Kennedy’s old seat proud, but whether or not he’s able to do that (assuming he actually wants to) is another story. Here he is, a freshman senator, hard-working but not too bright, in office because the MA state dems couldn’t get their shit together and the national dems didn’t intervene in time. If he kowtows to his batshit-insane GOP senate overlords, he’ll piss off a lot of the folks who voted for him as Scott Notcoakley. If he doesn’t kowtow, McConnell et al. will make his life miserable. I don’t see the teabaggers being successful in primarying Brown in 2012, but it could be a drain on his finances. And then comes the general against, hopefully, a state dem party that’s learned its lesson. Bye bye, Brownie.

  167. 167.

    Jason Bylinowski

    @jwb: I don’t know, my friend, what you say about bankers certainly rings true to me but the Tea People are really more hard-right than you think, at least they are down here where I live. We all know that nobody’s heads are going to roll for the economic mess (well, in fairness, Obama’s might! sigh) and that pretty much leaves regulatory control as the primary battle to be waged in the next year before the election. And regulatory control sounds whole lot like goddamn guvment interference to the Tea People, which they don’t like at all.

    My new pet theory is that the country is now simply too big and too politically divided for two parties to govern successfully, to the point that the only means of wrestling control from the other side is through sheer Schadenfreude, which is to say that that the only way one side can win is if the other side consistently loses. I don’t know. Maybe in the grand scheme, that’s how it always is, really, but it seems like today there is a special emphasis on emphasizing the negative. Remember, even though the GOP is now supposedly invigorated – THEY CURRENTLY HAVE NO PLATFORM AND NO AGENDA WHATSOEVER. they have no ideas on the table at all, in healthcare, in financial reform, or in environmental issues. All they’ve got is defending their record on torture and cutting taxes, neither of which leads them to victory (the latter isn’t even possible if you follow current deficit projections). So basically the win comes down to whoever has the best FAIL detectors.

  169. 169.

    Ailuridae

    @Jim:

    Dick Durbin will take that job; trust me on this. Now there might be all kinds of talk about centralizing that much power in “Chicago” but he’ll take the job if asked.

  170. 170.

    KCinDC

    @Ash Can, I thought it was going to be hard for him to survive the primary, but I see now that independents are allowed to vote in the GOP primary (or Democratic primary, but not both) in Massachusetts. Maybe he can survive after all, though life in the Senate as part of the Republican caucus will be miserable if he’s not kowtowing, and the continual screaming of teabaggers outraged at his betrayal will get tiresome.

  171. 171.

    Davis X. Machina

    Also, the folks out on the ledge should think of what kind of position Scott Brown is in now.

    Every Wofford has his Santorum…

  176. 176.

    jwb

    @Jason Bylinowski: while I’m down in Texas myself. Certainly there us a contingent for whom socialism is simply a displacement for race. There are also the religious wingnuts, of course. But there’s another group, I think fairly substantial, who are angry about the bailouts, and that’s the group that has been coopted and might be neutralized and even turned with an effective populist run against Wall Street–especially if the conservatives now giving the group direction suddenly were forced to defend the bankers (which at this point they haven’t had to do because Geitner, Summers & Bernanke have done that work for them).

  177. 177.

    Something Fabulous

    @John Cole:

    Bayh and Webb pretty clearly signaled HCR is going down, and there is no chance cap and trade or a solid financial regulation bill passes. The activists are already hard at work pulling the party apart at the seams, and when the bodies start piling up in AfPak and the CRE bomb goes off and we get the double dip, we will probably lose the House and be down to 51 in the Senate. After that- bullshit half measures and little more until the GOP wins in 2012.

    Dude. Emopants.

  178. 178.

    jwb

    Reposted due to moderation: @Jason Bylinowski: while I’m down in Texas myself. Certainly there us a contingent for whom soc!alism is simply a displacement for race. There are also the religious wingnuts, of course. But there’s another group, I think fairly substantial, who are angry about the bailouts, and that’s the group that has been coopted and might be neutralized and even turned with an effective populist run against Wall Street—especially if the conservatives now giving the group direction suddenly were forced to defend the bankers (which at this point they haven’t had to do because Geitner, Summers & Bernanke have done that work for them).

  179. 179.

    Uriel

    @cleek:

    golly, i wonder why health-related stocks hit a 15 month high today…
    …
    i’m sure it’s because investors and H.C. co’s think the future of health care reform is even more secure than it was yesterday.

    Obviously you don’t get it- not surprising for such an obvious o-rahm-a-tron.

    This is just the kind of eleventy billionth level chess they are the true masters of. Obviously, by supporting the tea baggers and pretending to oppose HCR, they were actually secretly supporting it- which led to better stock prices. Just so Brown would be able to defeat Cockley- leading to even higher stock prices. Which would then cause the Dems to get all kind of steel in their spines over the issue, causing them to pass the give away bill the insurance industry was pretending to oppose in the first place. Leading to- you guessed it- EVEN HIGHER STOCK PRICES!

    Wheels within wheels, baby! Wheels with in wheels!

    And that’s why we can’t have nice things…..

  180. 180.

    Mnemosyne

    @Jennifer:

    Haven’t read all the comments, but have seen the Dem co-bags jumping ship on HCR all over the place, and they need a message: figure out a way to get it done, or we’re staying home this fall.

    That’s the problem — they’re already working on the assumption that you’re going to stay home and the only way they’re going to be able to win their next election is to move to the right and get some independents to vote for them. They’ve given up on getting your vote and will dig votes up somewhere else.

    That’s why “stay home” is the stupidest strategy ever, and yet it’s the one the left has been betting the farm on for 40 years.

    (Edited for clarity)

  181. 181.

    Ailuridae

    @jwb:

    We’re about to find out that’s for sure. I hope I am wrong but I highly suspect there will be less, not more, of a public expansion of insurance if HCR gets passed through reconciliation.

    Its pretty interesting that Senator Feingold was already using back to the drawing board language about health care before today’s results even came out. But again, he was always operating in good faith because… ta da … he’s Russ Feingold.

  182. 182.

    Mike E

    @asiangrrlMN:
    I don’t know, maybe the only person with any rights here to bitch is Ned Lamont. At least he RAN and WANTED the fucking job, and actually got shafted. Plus, Joe Lieberman is a stack of shit, and BoB is an ass.

  183. 183.

    Church Lady

    As far as I’m concerned, Brown winning this race is the best thing that could have happened to HRC. My greatest hope is that the current bill will be shelved and they will go back to the drawing board and find a way to make it better – better for the uninsured and better for the insured that are being f’d over by their insurance companies on an almost daily basis.

    Our company’s renewal notice arrived today. Premium increase? You betcha – to the tune of 18%. Now we have to try to peel it back, which will mean either increasing co-pays and deductibles or having our employees start picking up part of the cost of the premiums. Either way, they’re going to get screwed, but with business down, we just can’t afford to pay over $125K a year in health insurance premiums.

  184. 184.

    KDP

    @Sly:

    Thirty million people will continue to have no health insurance, and more than twice that will continue to have shitty health insurance, because too many people were more concerned about being right than being fair.

    As you said. The Senate HCR bill is not what anyone with progressive sensibilities would want given their druthers; however, it sets the stage for a shift from a wholly unregulated, profit-based business model towards one oriented a bit more towards protecting the consumer.

    I have decent health insurance, but if I lose my job, I lose my insurance. I have no preexistings, but my partner does. And he is insured through me. I want some form of HCR to pass so that the task of refining and improving it, which is inevitable, can begin. Also, because I do NOT want the Republicans to gain on this point through sheer and malicious obstructionism.

    Those who want to stand on principle may find that principle has become a precipice. At least this bill moves a couple of steps back from the edge.

  185. 185.

    Ailuridae

    @cleek:

    Always an argument that was put forward by

    1) People too stupid to understand that those numbers met little

    or more likely

    2) people relying on their readers to be too ignorant of economics and finance to realize that those rises in price meant little

    Again, the firebaggers broadly and FDL specifically, didn’t just adopt right-wing framing they used right-wing tactics. Most of their fight against HCR is basically a mad-lib version of What’s the Matter with Kansas?

  186. 186.

    General Winfield Stuck

    @Mnemosyne: Though I have surrendered to our Prog Overlords of Chaos, I will never not vote. And anything with two or four legs and a D stamped on it’s hind quarters will get that vote. My optimism hitherto is in the shitter, and Jane Hamsher is on my teevee. There are other things in life, at least till 2012 when we become all Mayan’s.

  187. 187.

    cleek

    @Church Lady:

    My greatest hope is that the current bill will be shelved and they will go back to the drawing board and find a way to make it better

    if the current Senate bill doesn’t pass, you won’t see any HCR for the next 16 years. nobody will touch it. it will be as untouchable as a thousand Social Securities.

    it is now or never.

  188. 188.

    Sly

    @cleek:

    Going to stock prices has always been an absurd waste of time. There are simply too many variables. This is just as true now as when people were insisting that stock prices going up after the Senate vote was a clear sign that the Senate Bill was corporate welfare writ large.

    What is instructive is that the insurance industry has been funneling tens of millions through the Chamber of Commerce to get attack ads up against both bills. That and, you know, reading the fucking legislation.

  189. 189.

    Jim

    @Ailuridae: Interesting. I hadn’t thought of Durbin, but I bet you’re right. And he’s from downstate, no? He’d have a lot of support from Harkin, McCaskill.
    (and if those comments of his that got so twisted around come up, well, Scott Horton has changed that conversation, hasn’t it).

  190. 190.

    mcd410x

    In the spirit of bipartisanship the president admires, let’s go back to President Bush in 2006 and 2007. The Republicans and the president were hit with a staggering defeat in November 2006 in an election fought overwhelmingly on public dissatisfaction with the Iraq War. The president said that he’d heard the people’s message and proceeded to dramatically expand the US troop commitment in Iraq.

    Josh Marshall makes some good points, IMO.

    What we’ve seen so far has just been foreplay. Pragmatist or leader — we’re about to find out what our President is all about.

  191. 191.

    Redfury

    I just got back from a Scott Brown party, granted I’m pretty hammered, but you liberals are fucked.

    Your socialist agenda has been shit upon by mainstream America. Better start that visa process. I hear Canada is nice this time of year.

    Getting your socialist asses out of the US is Change We Can Believe in.

  192. 192.

    General Winfield Stuck

    @Church Lady: Recognizing the tectonic shift in our national politics toward the Three Maji of republican nirvana, I hereby nominate Church Lady to become a front pager. Please do what is obviously right Mr. Cole. It is only fair. Under the circumstances, whatever the fuck they are.

  193. 193.

    asiangrrlMN

    @Mike E: Agree on all accounts. Gah. This is so damn frustrating.

    @cleek: Agree with this as well. If it gets defeated now, it’ll be untouchable until the situation becomes completely untenable, at which point, reform may be too late.

  194. 194.

    jwb

    I@Church Lady: and that 18% increase is why the smart money would be betting against the insurance industry however HCR turns out. As things stand I don’t see the system lasting more than 5 year–in the not too distant future even the corporations are going to be forced to pull out due to cost.

  195. 195.

    Uriel

    @Mnemosyne:

    That’s the problem—they’re already working on the assumption that you’re going to stay home and the only way they’re going to be able to win their next election is to move to the right and get some independents to vote for them.

    Exactly- I really don’t see how people can’t get this. I mean, Lieberman was running around FOX today practically orgasmic over the fact that this election would be his GRAND VINDICATION.

    And people really expect that weasels like Nelson or Landrieu are suddenly going shift dramatically leftward to capture votes that might otherwise be far more easily off-set by voting only slightly more right-wing nut-job than they currently are? Exactly where do people think the path of least resistance lies here? Didn’t anyone live through the 90’s?

  196. 196.

    GregB

    I betcha Jim DeMint is celebrating tonight with a cigar and loudly played 8 track version of Waterloo.

    -G

  197. 197.

    Sly

    @KDP:

    I have shitty insurance with a lifetime cap, but I have enough money put away so that if I get cancer or lose an arm or something, I won’t be dead. I’ll likely be broke, but not dead. I have a few family members on their last months of COBRA, who don’t qualify for Medicaid, and an aunt who is three years away from qualifying for Medicare, lost her insurance a year ago, and just had an ovarian cancer scare.

    So, yeah, the reform effort would have helped me and mine. I guess I’m selfish that way, not wanting people I know and care about to die. The only people in my family who were opposed to either bill were a few Teabaggers. All of whom, incidentally, had Medicare.

  198. 198.

    Ailuridae

    @jwb:

    That was inevitable with or without HCR passing. Unfortunately, as someone who has been self-employed and paying for health insurance for a decade the individual market (which is primarily what this bill addressed after Medicaid and subsidies) won’t be reformed any time soon.

  199. 199.

    Mark S.

    @jenniebee:

    If Dems had done what Republicans do on every issue from Milton Friedman’s wacky theories to mid-east policy to energy and everything in between, they’d have spent the time laying the groundwork in the media and in the think tanks.

    This. The Democrats don’t even know how to argue their own side. The past twenty years they have basically let the GOP decide the terms of the debate. Just in the last two days I’ve read three Democratic Senators concern troll about big government and the deficit (granted, one of them was Joementum).

    I don’t know if they are out of touch, but they should realize that most people know they are a layoff or a kid’s diagnosis of leukemia away from financial ruin. Why not hammer away at the fact that medical bankruptcies are unheard of in industrial nations with universal coverage? Hammer that point every chance you get. We might still lose, but it’s better than giving tongue baths to Lieberman and Nelson to water down an already pretty crappy bill. Make those assholes defend themselves for a change.

  200. 200.

    Jim

    I mean, Lieberman was running around FOX today practically orgasmic over the fact that this election would be his GRAND VINDICATION.

    I’m hoping Wiener, who is a hero, and Feingold, who is an over-rated putz, are paying attention when Bayh and Webb announce that if things go “back to the drawing board” they won’t be supporing universal access to medicare or the public option. Believe them when they say this. They mean it.

  202. 202.

    Ailuridae

    @Sly:

    So, yeah, the reform effort would have helped me and mine. I guess I’m selfish that way, not wanting people I know and care about to die. The only people in my family who were opposed to either bill were a few Teabaggers. All of whom, incidentally, had Medicare.

    That’s a shitty boat to be in. The bill wasn’t going to do a lot for me but I realized it was going to insure 30M and improve insurance for at least that many in the individual market now or in the future so I wanted it passed. Well for those reasons and because I’m not a hate-filled purity troll.

  203. 203.

    Jim

    @Ailuridae:
    I have a fantasy that Franken and Harkin and Kerry and Sanders and maybe a few others start a campaign for Medicare expansion. It won’t happen quick, but I think it would be a great thing to get out into the discourse.

  204. 204.

    Mnemosyne

    @Uriel:

    This is what the Villagers are saying today, and will be saying for weeks: the Administration moved too far to the left and got punished at the polls by losing Ted Kennedy’s seat to a Republican. Clearly Obama’s policies are much too liberal if even Massachusetts is against them.

    This is why I want to punch each and every Democrat or “progressive” who was saying people shouldn’t vote for Coakley in the throat — because they knew damn well what the Democratic power structure was going to think if they lost, and they told people to stay home anyway.

    Here’s the thing, people: if you demonstrate your displeasure with a not-liberal-enough candidate by staying home and the far-right teabagger wins, politicians assume that people prefer the ideas of the far-right teabagger and that’s why he won. And it’s hard to argue against that after a majority of voters put the far-right teabagger into office. Saying, “Well, the Democrat would have won but I decided to stay home” doesn’t encourage anyone but the Republicans.

  205. 205.

    Mike E

    @Mark S.:

    The Democrats don’t even know how to argue their own side. The past twenty years they have basically let the GOP decide the terms of the debate.

    More like 30. In a GOP knife fight, Dems bring bread and cheese.

  206. 206.

    Darryl

    January 20th, 2010 at 1:30 am Reply to this comment
    asiangrrlMN
    @Mike E: Agree on all accounts. Gah. This is so damn frustrating.
    @cleek: Agree with this as well. If it gets defeated now, it’ll be untouchable until the situation becomes completely untenable, at which point, reform may be too late.

    Saying “Agree.” is about a thousand times smarter than saying “This.” In English, the subject “I” can often be presumed to attach to a verb, so “Agree” easily reads as “I agree”, whereas just leaving a pronoun like “This.” doesn’t easily read as anything. Pronouns are generally crap by themselves if they aren’t in response to a question. For example, “Who killed that microwave?” “Him.” is fine, but just saying “Him.” by itself means dick-all.

    But I suppose I should just appreciate the good things about Balloon-Juice, and stop complaining about the few moronic things here.

  207. 207.

    Comrade Luke

    That’s the problem—they’re already working on the assumption that you’re going to stay home and the only way they’re going to be able to win their next election is to move to the right and get some independents to vote for them. They’ve given up on getting your vote and will dig votes up somewhere else.

    That’s why “stay home” is the stupidest strategy ever, and yet it’s the one the left has been betting the farm on for 40 years.

    So if we vote for their shitty policies they’re encouraged by that and do even more of it, but if we don’t vote for it they move to the right.

    Nice alternatives.

  208. 208.

    Ailuridae

    @Jim:

    And this should have been going on if they wanted that done. The Democrats have completely dropped the ball from the policy angle on pushing for a public expansion of health insurance.

    Open Left polled the caucus – there were 44-46 votes for anything resembling a public option. The fact that they managed to get to 59 votes for a really open Medicare expansion with Lieberman fucking them shows some heavy lifting on Reid’s part and whomever was working it from the White House. Unless you listen to Russ Feingold who we are all about to find out was fantastically full of shit.

  209. 209.

    Jennifer

    @Mnemosyne:

    Ok, so the “smart” strategy is to say, “hey, Democratic cobags, we’re down. Don’t do anything on health care; it’s way more important that you win your next election even if it doesn’t mean you’ll actually DO anything after it. If I go bankrupt due to a medical issue, I won’t hold it against you and I’ll show up to vote for you no matter what”?

    Fuck that noise. I said “if”. Which means, if these feckless fucks jettison this whole past year and deliver NOTHING, then that’s what they’ll get from me in contributions and votes. They better make up their minds toot sweet to salvage whatever they can of the wreck they’ve made of this thing and get it done, or I’m done. Whether that’s a “stupid” strategy or not.

  210. 210.

    Mark S.

    @Church Lady:

    As far as I’m concerned, Brown winning this race is the best thing that could have happened to HRC. My greatest hope is that the current bill will be shelved and they will go back to the drawing board and find a way to make it better – better for the uninsured and better for the insured that are being f’d over by their insurance companies on an almost daily basis.

    Do you belong to one of those churches that ingest peyote? Cause that’s the only way I can see you thinking the teabag express is going to deliver any relief for your health care problems.

  211. 211.

    ==-+

    I mean, Lieberman was running around FOX today practically orgasmic over the fact that this election would be his GRAND VINDICATION.

    Then Lieberman is a bigger idiot than I thought. As #60 he has power.

    As of right now, he’s just another GOP/ConservaDem. Of which there are plenty. Leiberman’s just gone from a sock puppet to a just a sock

  213. 213.

    Darryl

    The kind of people who use “This.” as an intelligent comment reminds me of the kids I teach Intensive Math to, who, when I’m trying to teach them that 25% off an $80 dress means it now costs $60, respond with “When I ever gonna use this shit in Real Life?”

    Although, I get paid to explain percentages, and I don’t get paid to explain rudimentary English, so maybe I’m the idiot here….

  214. 214.

    asiangrrlMN

    @Darryl: Argh! That should actually have read “I agree” in both cases. Damn. My brain is not fully functioning right now.

    @Darryl: Oh, I know, but I re-read my comment and was mortified I had left off the “I”.

  215. 215.

    Darryl

    @Ailuridae: No, Teh Is Teh Awesomenesss!!!!!!!!!1111111111

    That comment would be funnier if the BJ software didn’t strip out the multiple punctuation marks….

    ETA: hey, it didn’t strip off the ones! The BJ software is nothing if not capricious and mercurial.

    ETA2: It stripped the exclamation points off, but left the ones…well, at least I didn’t talk about a certain form of state ownership of industry…

  218. 218.

    Mnemosyne

    @Comrade Luke:

    So if we vote for their shitty policies they’re encouraged by that and do even more of it, but if we don’t vote for it they move to the right.

    Here’s the difference between liberals and conservatives:

    When conservatives don’t like what their party is doing, they mobilize to take over the party.

    When liberals don’t like what their party is doing, they stay home and sulk.

    This is why they keep kicking our asses: because we don’t care enough to actually go to the trouble of changing our party. We’d rather cast our vote every two or four years and then bitch that our one vote didn’t magically change the entire structure that conservatives have been building since Reagan.

    At this point, we deserve to lose.

  219. 219.

    Sly

    @Ailuridae:

    That’s a shitty boat to be in. The bill wasn’t going to do a lot for me but I realized it was going to insure 30M and improve insurance for at least that many in the individual market now or in the future so I wanted it passed. Well for those reasons and because I’m not a hate-filled purity troll.

    Not as shitty as it sounds, at least not for me personally. My last job didn’t have company insurance, so when that fell apart I went back to school and got insurance through them. It wouldn’t have been an option if I had children, because the plan offered through the school doesn’t cover dependents. The lifetime cap is there so they can save money on the assumption that that the 18-22yo undergrads who make up the bulk of the risk pool will be off the plan shortly after their graduation.

    The interesting thing is that my tuition is actually cheaper than the premiums I’d have to pay on the individual market, unless I took something insane like a plan with a $10,000 deductible. Those “Voluntary Benefits Plans” that are voluntary in the sense that if you can’t afford the out-of-pocket expenses you volunteer not to use the benefits. The shitty boat to be in comes after I get my Masters, which I have every incentive to postpone until the job market improves.

  221. 221.

    Ailuridae

    @==-+:

    I’m not terribly interested in the caucus stuff but now seems like as good of time as any to ask Lieberman to leave the caucus. If he doesn’t backstab the good-faith negotiations or Pryor, Nelson et al we have a bill right now that could be passed immediately by the House.

    Maybe if his chairmanship gets passed to Carper or Pryor (I think they are the next two in line) you can actually demand some loyalty to the caucus.

  223. 223.

    gwangung

    That’s why “stay home” is the stupidest strategy ever, and yet it’s the one the left has been betting the farm on for 40 years.
    So if we vote for their shitty policies they’re encouraged by that and do even more of it, but if we don’t vote for it they move to the right.

    Only time they didn’t stay home was when they elected a black man to be President. Hm. How did that happen? Well organized ground game, lots of money and one or two unique circumstances got them to engage the traditional feckless fucks on their own ground…

    (It suggests that any change would have to be launched from within….)

  224. 224.

    General Winfield Stuck

    I used to think that the Netroots was so superior to the wingnuttosphere, that it would give the democrats a big advantage over the crazy right wingers with their underdeveloped blog presence. During the Bush years I spent many hours trolling their blogs bragging about how as the Netroots got bigger and more powerful politically it was bad news for the GOP.

    Boy was I wrong. The chaos and purity and sabotage, I think will cause disaster for democrats electorally, and the smaller wingnut presence will be much more powerful in getting their folks elected. For the simple reasons that they are better liars and stick together when that is required to win elections as well as supporting their officials after they get elected.

    Lesson learned.

  225. 225.

    Comrade Luke

    So no one should bitch and moan about the Democrats, stop trying to move the fucking Overton window to the left blah blah blah because all that happens is that the Republicans win.

    And don’t not vote, because by not voting the Democrats assume they need to move to the right, and the Republicans win.

    So basically, blindly vote for anyone who runs as a Democrat no matter how good they are or what they stand for, because otherwise the Republicans win.

    Good thing we’re not letting the Republicans dictate the terms of the discussion.

  228. 228.

    Mnemosyne

    @Jennifer:

    See my link at #217. The smart thing to do would be to become active in the party and rebuild the entire structure the way the Republicans did with their party, but we’re too fucking lazy to get off our asses and do it. We want candidates handed to us on a silver platter.

    I thought for half a second that liberals had finally got it when people like Markos started talking about “more and better Democrats” and how we needed to get more liberals into office, but apparently that was too much hard work, because barely 5 years into it, we’re giving up and going back to our decades-long strategy of sulking.

  229. 229.

    Jennifer

    @Mnemosyne:

    Speak for yourself.

    I volunteered a lot of time and effort signing up small business supporters for reform for HCAN, in addition to contributing and volunteering time to the Democrats last year.

    I goddamn well DO deserve better than to be bankrupted by an illness because the Dems are more concerned with their own precious heinies getting re-elected than they are with actually DOING THEIR FUCKING JOBS and working to fix things.

    They owe ME, not the other way around.

  230. 230.

    Comrade Luke

    @General Winfield Stuck:

    Isn’t blindly voting for every Democrat no matter how good or bad they are, or what they stand for, simply because they’re a Democrat just a different kind of purity oath?

  232. 232.

    Comrade Luke

    Ezra weighs in.

    a Democratic Party that would abandon their central initiative this quickly isn’t a Democratic Party that deserves to hold power. If they don’t believe in the importance of their policies, why should anyone who’s skeptical change their mind? If they’re not interested in actually passing their agenda, why should voters who agree with Democrats on the issues work to elect them? A commitment provisional on Ted Kennedy not dying and Martha Coakley not running a terrible campaign is not much of a commitment at all.

  234. 234.

    Mnemosyne

    @Comrade Luke:

    So basically, blindly vote for anyone who runs as a Democrat no matter how good they are or what they stand for, because otherwise the Republicans win.

    Again, if you’re unwilling to get up off your fucking lazy ass and actually make the changes to the Democratic Party that need to be made, then STFU and stay home.

  235. 235.

    Darryl

    Don’t mind me, I’m just the kind of guy who complains about people saying ‘conversate’ because they’re too illiterate to know the word ‘converse’. I’m more a descriptionist than a prescriptionist, so I don’t mind when a language changes, I just mind stupid changes. Leet-speak isn’t stupid, it’s hilarious. I once had to leave the UNC library because I couldn’t stop laughing while reading Jeff K.

    Although I just mentally contradicted myself by laughing at the memory of Frito Pendejo telling Not Sure, “Go away…I’m ‘batin”, which is a change both stupid, and hilarious.

  236. 236.

    gwangung

    So no one should bitch and moan about the Democrats, stop trying to move the fucking Overton window to the left blah blah blah because all that happens is that the Republicans win.

    I’m not sure that bitching and moaning actually moves the Overton Window. I thought it required changes in the status quo, either in legislation or in politicians elected. (That said, your later quotation of Ezra is entirely appropriate).

  237. 237.

    asiangrrlMN

    @Comrade Luke: Yeah, but it’s better than voting against every Democrat for not being progressive enough when the alternate is a Scott Brown.

    @Mnemosyne: The two are not incompatible. I also think there is only so much one person can do. Even if I were, say, to get elected as a congress person, I would only be one of many. I think many Democrats (the voters, not necessarily those in power) are doing a lot.

    @Darryl: I am pretty strict in my usage, but I allow a little leeway on the ‘nets.

  238. 238.

    Alex S.

    Well… the current legislative session still lasts a while. They could shelf the bill for a few months and come back to it, once the economy has recovered. Theoretically, they could make a vote on the Senate bill in the house right now, and if it fails, they could send the House bill to the Senate and amend it to please Queen Snowe or Scott Brown.

    But if this reform effort fails, health-care reform will be out of reach for a decade or more and Medicare and Medicaid will go bankrupt. They will require additional taxing to exist and that’s when the republicans will be going in for the kill. They’ll privatize the whole health-care sector (McCain’s platform) which means that the burden on the middle-class will increase even more.

  240. 240.

    Darryl

    @mcd410x:

    mcd410x
    This.
    Also. Too.

    I recognize you. See you tomorrow morning in Intensive math. You’re the guy I can’t get to realize that the square root of three times the square root of three is…three. Ah, well, we’ve only been working on it since mid-October.

    Better get them grades up, we’re well into this 9-week period.

  242. 242.

    General Winfield Stuck

    @Comrade Luke: I have voted for many republicans over the years, that was before the GOP went bugfuck crazy which is their current state.

    In our system, there are only really two viable choices to pull the lever for, D and R. The other choice is to stay home and not vote. Which is the same as voting for R. They are crazy and dangerous right now, and I can’t see any dem being worse than that, though if they were in a particular election, I would of course reconsider. Do you really think otherwise, in our present circumstance? I don’t. So no, it is has nothing to do with purity. It is simply a multiple choice decision, with only the best of two choices.

  244. 244.

    Mnemosyne

    @Jennifer:

    They owe ME, not the other way around.

    Hey, good luck with that. The left has been talking about what they’re “owed” for decades now, and we’ve gotten jack shit.

    If the internal structure of the party remains as it is now, we will continue on the same path and no amount of whining in the world about how much we’re owed for our donations will change that. We can elect all of the hopey-changey politicians we want, but if they don’t have the support of a solid party structure, they will fail.

  245. 245.

    eemom

    @Comrade Luke:

    in a perfect world, yes. But that’s not the one we live in.

    The world we live in, is one where Democrats, fucked up as they are
    — or at least, some subset of them — actually do want to make things better for people who are suffering. In this actual real world, republicans exist for no other purpose than to destroy Obama and regain power, and suffering people be damned. No one in THEIR family is ever gonna die because they couldn’t afford to go to a doctor.

    Coakley, however much of a loser she might be, would have moved things forward to relieve the suffering. Now, however, we’ve got another fucking roadblock in the way.

  246. 246.

    FormerSwingVoter

    Remember that time the Republicans started eating their own because they weren’t getting tax cuts that were big enough or deregulation that was extreme enough or war that was horrific enough? Or because they weren’t getting those things as fast as they would like? And then they faded into irrelevance because they couldn’t maintain party discipline for more than ten fucking months?

    Yeah. Neither do I.

  247. 247.

    General Winfield Stuck

    @freelancer: LOL, I have used that very pic in the past to link to, I think even on BJ a long time ago. The surreal pistol, or something like that it’s called. Very good choice for the evening freelancer.

  248. 248.

    mcd410x

    If you want people to vote for your party, you probably shouldn’t go out and say you going to do a bunch of things and then not.

    Unless you’re a Republican, in which case it’s a-ok!

    U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!

  250. 250.

    Mnemosyne

    @asiangrrlMN:

    They’re not incompatible, but it’s just such a stark contrast to watch the teabaggers go out and sign up for the positions that will let them influence who their local Republican candidates are while we sit around with our thumbs up our asses arguing about whether or not we’re better off staying out of electoral politics altogether.

    I know I joined a disorganized party but Jesus fuck can’t we even keep focused on getting shit done for 12 fucking months?

  251. 251.

    Darryl

    Reading that Ezra Klein bit makes me want to use the screwdriver to wash down a bottle of sleeping pills.

  252. 252.

    gwangung

    @Mnemosyne: I think it was Chuck Butcher who was alluding to that in another thread, saying that the heads of the party are considerably more rightish than the people making up the apparatus. Perhaps I’ve been asleep, but I wonder why that’s a stable configuration.

  254. 254.

    Ailuridae

    @Comrade Luke:

    I don’t think anyone’s arguing anything like that. I think very few here are opposed to primary challenges from the left. And their are loathsome Democrats who I myself would have a tough time voting for. But Coakley certainly doesn’t qualify there.

    As for the HCR bill that’s about to go down? It would have been the passage of progressive legislation on the same scope as the 1965 Medicare act and not even a dozen years out would have achieved what the FDL crowd appears to desperately want and you suggest in your post: moving the Overton window to the left. And a huge part of the Democratic base fought it with cravenly dishonest tactics and framing here and elsewhere.

    Nobody is arguing that there shouldn’t be dissent. But when the interparty squabble is done, you put a smile on pass the fucking legislation, back it publicly and try to sway legislative and public opinion in the interim. A lot of progressives were pissed at how little S-CHIP accomplished given what Clinton ran on in 1992. But without passing that legislation in 1997 (which was flawed and many felt didn’t go far enough), their isn’t a base off which to expand it later. So that imperfect legislation was improved and I don’t know too many Democrats now that don’t think it was a good idea to pass it in 1997 but there were plenty of folks then saying it didn’t do enough.

  255. 255.

    redfury

    Well that’s about the end of that ‘eh Libs? Pushing your socialist agenda on the rest of America under the guise of Health Care Reform?

    America is not Socialist Europe or Socialist Canada. We are a Democracy. Now your hand has been slapped. Learn.

  256. 256.

    Mnemosyne

    @mcd410x:

    If you want people to vote for your party, you probably shouldn’t go out and say you going to do a bunch of things and then not.
    __
    Unless you’re a Republican, in which case it’s a-ok!

    Pretty much, yeah. How many Republicans have run on getting abortion made illegal again? How much progress have they actually made towards that goal? And yet the fundies keep pulling the lever for them again and again, and that kept Republicans in power for 30 years.

    They may know shit about governing, but Republicans know how to get their people into office. We can barely keep people in office long enough to nibble a few changes around the edges before Democrats throw their hands in the air and give up, which lets that army of marching fundies get us right back in the same fucking situation.

  257. 257.

    mcd410x

    @Darryl: Haha, you’re more perfecter than anyone. (Also, the general missed a comma earlier).

    I took 3 semesters of calculus on the way to a degree in biochemistry (I took prob/stat as an elective because it was fun). I do graphic design for a living. I can read the Bible in both Greek and Latin. But I don’t take myself seriously enough to think any of this matters on this blog. Cause it doesn’t.

    Please check your hangups at the door. Thanks.

  258. 258.

    Comrade Luke

    @eemom:

    The stupid thing is that I’m here getting into heated debates with people who I respect, over a Senate race that happened literally on the other side of the country.

    I agree with most of what the O-bots are saying, but sometimes it just feels like we’re stuck between a rock and a hard place.

    Must be easy to be a Republican. All you have to do is say “NO!” to anything Democrats propose until you get voted back in, at which point you lower taxes and deregulate. Later, Rinse, Repeat.

  260. 260.

    Darryl

    If 66% of people in the US called themselves Coke drinkers, and 33% called themselves Pepsi drinkers, the people at Pepsi would realize that while they might need to improve their product, they also need a massive PR campaign to convince people to be Pepsi drinkers.

    Right now, the number of people in the US who consider themselves Conservatives is approximately double the number who consider themselves Liberals. Liberals need a massive, comprenensive PR campaign to convince people that being a liberal is cool.

  263. 263.

    Comrade Luke

    @Ailuridae:

    Yea, I agree with you and the others here. It’s just that my head’s spinning trying to figure out how the hell everyone bailed so quickly, and how in less than a year I’m looking at people like the FDL crew with as much disdain as the teabaggers.

    FWIW, I have never, ever said that I would sit out. I’ll use my vote to block Republicans to my dying day, but I do hope that someday I’ll be able to vote for a kickass Dem at the same time.

  265. 265.

    mcd410x

    @Mnemosyne: A comment I used to repeat was that, if the GOP really represented the people it claims to, abortion would be illegal and Terri would still be alive. They had both houses and the presidency — and they didn’t even try.

    Do the Democrats have a message machine? If so, what does it do?

  266. 266.

    Comrade Luke

    @Ailuridae:

    BTW, regarding my mention of the Overton Window, I wasn’t trying to be supportive of it: I’m really sick of that term.

  267. 267.

    Mnemosyne

    @Comrade Luke:

    I agree with most of what the O-bots are saying, but sometimes it just feels like we’re stuck between a rock and a hard place.

    Unfortunately, that’s pretty close. We have a very small toothpick to try and move the rock with, but it’s going to take a hell of a lot of digging before we see anything resembling progress and most of the people around us want to stop digging because it’s taking too long to move the rock.

    I don’t mean to take it out on you, but I am so incredibly frustrated with the short-term thinking of my side right now that I just want to go around punching people in the throat. The teabaggers are in it to win it and they know how to play the game, so we’re going to get pwned again 10 years from now by people who are even crazier than today’s teabaggers and half the Democrats will be standing around saying, “Wha happen?” because we didn’t put in the work that the teabaggers did.

  268. 268.

    Uriel

    @Comrade Luke:

    Must be easy to be a Republican. All you have to do is say “NO!” to anything Democrats propose until you get voted back in, at which point you lower taxes and deregulate. Later, Rinse, Repeat.

    This, too, also…… And such!

    (BTW- have I blown your mind yet Darryl? ‘Cause I can go on…)

  269. 269.

    Comrade Luke

    @Mnemosyne:

    Serious question: Why do they keep doing it? They’ve been played for fools on abortion for 40yrs but they keep voting. Do they convince themselves “This is the one!”, or do they do it because that’s the only alternative, or what?

  270. 270.

    Cain

    @Fern: <blockquoteI could use a civics lesson myself – what do people mean when they say the president is the leader of the party? This does not make sense to me.

    Yeah, you could. The president is the leader of the country, which trumps party, right? Or did you not remember some jackass was trying to blow up his balls and he was trying to calm a nation that Republicans were trying to send into a panic?

    cain

  271. 271.

    Uriel

    @Darryl: 5 seconds. Maybe less. God, you’re demanding.

    But yes, I’ll admit, not all that clever. I did, however give it that old college try!

    (Also, I hadn’t read far enough down the thread to realize it’d been done before. Cripes, everone’s a critic around here. No one bitched about the Fintstones being a ripoff of the Honeymooners- they just took it in stride and laughed and laughed at Fred’s crazy antics. Spoil-sport.)

  272. 272.

    General Winfield Stuck

    @Comrade Luke: There are actually a lot of “kick ass” dems serving in congress. But the equation for getting laws passed allows only a few dumbass dems, and all the dumbass republicans to stop the train cold, or load it with rubber duckies to pass thru. It’s the system the founders gave us, for the most part, and sometimes it is hard to see the wisdom in certain aspects. But somehow we have survived this long with a country split in half with one side believing the earth was created 6000 years ago, so it is hard to not believe those guys that started it all didn’t get it right.

  273. 273.

    Comrade Luke

    @Mnemosyne:

    Well FWIW, it’s our side. We’re in the trench together :)

    The thing that I can’t get my head around is how Hamsher got so bent that she’s teaming with Norquist. I wonder if she’s just lost her mind a little, seriously.

    I just hope she doesn’t have as much influence as some of us in this fishbowl think.

  274. 274.

    ranger11

    @Comrade Luke: I’ve knocked off about half of my bookmarks since all this nonsense started. I’ve learned that the clowns on the left are as bad as on the right.

  275. 275.

    Darryl

    mcd, I hope no philosophy majors were reading your comment. The non-sequitur density was dangerously high on that one.

    “I took prob/stat as an elective because it was fun”

    Good, then you can calculate the p-value on the likelihood that President Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho is your direct descendant, 500 years from now. :-)

    Uh. I’m in need of some screwdrivers.

    Anybody know how to calculate how many drinks you can have and still show up for work at 9 a.m. not smelling like the Jim Beam distillery?

  276. 276.

    Mike E

    @mcd410x:
    This. (Sorry Darryl) The Dem Message Machine sounds like every adult in a Peanuts Special: “Wah, wah.”

    Along with publicly exposing the Repubs illogic and hypocrisy, there should also be the mocking and the finger pointing and the laughing. Also.

  277. 277.

    Comrade Luke

    @General Winfield Stuck:

    Agreed, and I don’t have a huge problem with segments of each party not getting along with each other. It seems like differences of opinion even within the party is a good thing, and ultimately fosters progress.

    Having all the Republicans stopping the train cold is what the real problem is; they all vote as a block and get to sit back and watch as the Dems assemble the circular firing squad. And they never get called on it.

  278. 278.

    Darryl

    @Uriel: :-)

    The old college try actually made me wince. Reminded me that I’m almost out of Jeeves/Wooster stories. That’s not such a loss, reading the opening paragraphs of Jeeves in the morning for the fourth time makes me smile the same way it did the first. Still, it’s a damn shame that universe is finite.

  279. 279.

    Uriel

    @Darryl:

    If 66% of people in the US called themselves Coke drinkers, and 33% called themselves Pepsi drinkers, the people at Pepsi would realize that while they might need to improve their product, they also need a massive PR campaign to convince people to be Pepsi drinkers. Darryl is a big stick in the mud poopy pants who can’t hear the joy and laughter in his soul.

    There, fixed it for you, mr. grumbly grumble.

  280. 280.

    Darryl

    Nobody get the wrong idea, btw, I don’t hate the player, I hate the game. I’m sure you’re all fine people.

  281. 281.

    Darryl

    @Uriel: Hey, at least you didn’t say Grumble McGrumbleson. If there’s one thing I hate more than ‘this’, it’s X McX(suffix).

    :-P

  283. 283.

    Ailuridae

    @Comrade Luke:

    Yea, I agree with you and the others here. It’s just that my head’s spinning trying to figure out how the hell everyone bailed so quickly, and how in less than a year I’m looking at people like the FDL crew with as much disdain as the teabaggers.

    Well, FDL is a cult of personality as near as I can tell and the person in charge there, Jane Hamsher, is a highly problematic figure who is going to pop out of this on the other side of the political spectrum like David Horowitz before her. Right now, she is the Right Wing’s useful idiot. Her performance on Dylan “Pox on both houses” Ratigan’s show today was repellent. But here’s the thing: most progressives actually believe in progress and while they would like it to happen quickly and cleanly they understand that’s unlikely as there are entrenched interests from the media, the broader corporate power structure and within their own party that prevent that despite the popular will. So they take everything they can get, move one and revisit the issue when appropriate. But that’s not what Jane is about and she’s going to draw this line in the sand, and lay with the devil and her readership is going to wane as they actually want progress and realize there’s only one game in town: the Democratic Party. So you have a lot of options: you can accept the milquetoast progress the Democrats give you, you can work within the party for better Democrats, you can vent on blogs, you can attempt to move policy discussions to the left. But if you want progress, the Democrats are your game. Jane doesn’t get that and that’s fine.

  284. 284.

    Uriel

    @Darryl: Good lord, dear Sir- I’m not a barbarian. Why, I find the suggestion that I would engage in such shenanigans so wildly out of line as to border on the positively boorish.

    Good day to you sir!

  285. 285.

    Darryl

    None of them will hold a candle to the Adolph Hitler of word usements (10 cool points to whoever detects that reference), randomly inserting …wait for it… into sentences.

    “Barack Obama said the news about Mrs. Coakley was…wait for it…disappointing.”

    If there’s one thing that could make me join Al-Qaeda, it would be that.

    At one point in 2008 I believe, Steve Benen’s commenters were making charts about how many times he used that stupid cliche. I used to double over laughing when commenters would say, “Steve, have you considered…wait for it….refinancing? When HELOC loans were…wait for it…underwater? Because that would…wait for it…change the housing…wait for it…crisis. It’s something that would fix the adjustable…wait for it…rate mortgages.”

    Using a joke–funny. Using it ten times–not so funny. Using it for the 5,000th time–you’re a …wait for it…retard.

  286. 286.

    Ailuridae

    @Darryl:

    If you are drinking you can let us know through a common internet tradition. Oh, wait, those cause irrational anger for you.

    J/K

  287. 287.

    Mnemosyne

    @Comrade Luke:

    Serious question: Why do they keep doing it? They’ve been played for fools on abortion for 40yrs but they keep voting.

    Just a notion, but I think it’s partly because abortion is a buzzword, not a goal. “Abortion” is their catch-all term for being pissed off that the black and brown people have to be treated as equals now, that gay people don’t stay properly closeted, and that women seem to think they can prance around like actual citizens.

    They don’t really want abortion banned, except for the wonderful side-effect of being able to poke their noses into everyone else’s business. If that happened, their power would be gone.

  288. 288.

    Darryl

    If I ever start a blog*, it’ll be called The Steeple Bumpleigh Horror.

    The right people know why.

    *(that’ll be approximately never, because I have about one intelligent thought per month, whereas a good blog requires 5-10 posts a day)

  289. 289.

    Ailuridae

    @Comrade Luke:

    If you haven’t read “What’s the Matter with Kansas?” it explains a fair bit of that mentality. There are a lot of problems with it but anecdotally it explains the phenomenon well.

  290. 290.

    Uriel

    @Ailuridae: Acting out of the purest interests of Darryl, for whom I hold nothing but the utmost of warm regards, I shall happily lead the way in this little social experiment you’ve proposed. If only in the hope that my example shall provide some measure of encouragment:

    +eleventy bajillion

  292. 292.

    Darryl

    Nobody get the wrong idea, btw, I don’t hate the player, I hate the game. I’m sure you’re all fine people.@Ailuridae: the Plus something tradition, not being retarded, doesn’t raise my ire. But I have a more complicated problem. Tonight I had, around 10 pm, two drinks. They took two hours to wear off. Around 1 am, I had two more drinks. By now, they’ve worn off. So am I plus 4, or plus 0? My BAC would be around 0.01, though technically I’ve had 4. So a different tradition, posting one’s BAC, would be more accurate, though unwieldy for practical purposes.

  293. 293.

    Darryl

    A Certain Menacing Trend would also work for a blog in the same spirit, but kinda unwieldy too. Also. These. Tard. Wait for it. Good news for Richard Nixon. Or something.

  294. 294.

    ds

    Jesus Christ, even if the Republicans lost a Senate seat in a special election in Alabama, do you think that would stop them from trying to push their agenda? Maybe David Brooks would spout some recriminations, but 5 minutes later the entire party would be in lockstep attacking the Democrats and screaming about socialism.

    If the Dems freak out and tank health care reform after a year of pressing for it as vitally necessary for our nation’s future, because of one by-election, it’ll just prove that they are incapable of governing the country.

    F- this freakout. The negotiated compromise bill was virtually identical to the Senate bill anyway, and the rest can be patched up through the budget process. Pelosi has a proven track record of getting bills passed through the House. She understands how disastrous it would be politically to waste a year on health care reform and abandon it at the most embarrassing possible moment. She’s saying the right things right now.

    Take a breather. Contact your Democratic reps and make it clear that if they pass nothing, they’d be admitting massive incompetence, and they’ll be left in 2010 trying to hold their seats from the teabaggers with hardly any Dems bothering to turn out.

    No health care reform, no Dem majorities. It’s just a basic fact.

  296. 296.

    Sly

    @Mnemosyne:

    Pretty much, yeah. How many Republicans have run on getting abortion made illegal again? How much progress have they actually made towards that goal?

    At the state level, quite a bit. There’s a pretty big disparity in the ease of getting abortion services in New York or California compared to, say, Utah. For all intents and purposes, it’s practically illegal in Mississippi, where there are only two providers in the entire state. A lot of this has to do with state laws that are designed to limit abortion but don’t necessarily rise to the Undue Burden standard that was applied to abortion regulations in Casey.

    You only see overturning abortion trotted out as a major issue in states and districts where the pro-life position has better traction than the national average.

  297. 297.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    @General Winfield Stuck:

    People on the left laughed when the three sides of the Repub party (socon, ficon & neocon) were playing the purity game. Now we get to watch the multifaceted elements of the Democratic party shred each other playing the same game.

    Repubs and their lizard brains may only be able to count to three, thus their three main divisions, but sometimes that simplicity can be used to gain an edge on the Democrats. For all of the formidable brain-power the left has it sure is inept in using it to its advantage. Lots of infighting and grandstanding, especially in the netroots, no real cohesion or effort to work together. An orchestra where everyone is a conductor and plays their own music. Sounds like it too. Also.

    Oh well, the manic-progressives are good at playing the victim so they ought to be able to milk this to their advantage (for more fundraising, natch!).

  298. 298.

    Comrade Luke

    @Mnemosyne:

    So “abortion” is the dog whistle regarding all the social norms they want to repeal. That makes a ton of sense actually.

  299. 299.

    Comrade Luke

    @Ailuridae: I did read it, but it was so long ago I forgot any references to abortion.

    On the other hand, it was the first thing I thought of when the article about Texas writing school textbooks was brought up a couple of days ago.

  300. 300.

    Uriel

    @Darryl:

    Using a joke—funny. Using it ten times—not so funny. Using it for the 5,000th time—you’re a …wait for it…retard.

    The hell you say.

    (And, Ok, at this point I have to admit- tonight was trivia night at one of our local bars, and my team pretty much trounced all the other teams involved, which meant that we won lots of shots. And due to the fact that a disproportionate number of the members of my team don’t actually drink, I was left in the unfortunate position of being the person who actually disposed of those shots. Which, by a long route, means that that + eleventy bajillion thing I posted is a lot less off the mark than it should be, and I really do get the fact that I’m probably a lot funnier to me than I am to anyone else, at this point. Probably shouldn’t admit that, but fair disclosure and all. So, on that note. I’m going to leave you all to your very serious discussions of very serious things with an apology for my behavior, and the hope that I won’t be completely ostracized on the morrow. Please feel free to ignore everything I’ve said here, if only retroactively. Night guys/gals. )

    (And wow, that took a lot longer to write than I thought it would, But I kinda feel like I should at least be on the level, given the nonsense I’ve foisted off on everyone involved.)

  301. 301.

    Uriel

    (As an aside, this would be a good time for anyone who feels slightly charitable to step in and say something like, “no biggie, you goofy guy. We’ll still offer up the pretense of respect tomorrow.” Even if they didn’t actually, you know, mean it. Have to say, the sudden silence is a bit unsettling.)

  302. 302.

    Chuck Butcher

    Hmmm,
    Not quite 40 years ago I had the State hang a (D) after my name because the alternatives were lunatics or no party at all. I now find that my choice is well right of the lunatics I tried to avoid all those years ago and what I get for my trouble is insults from dumbasses on blogs and the Administration. I’ve spent those 40 yrs propping up the process of turning into the lunatics, even to the extent of providing framing and words that were used in a winning Presidential campaign by the candidate. I’ve scrambled around trying to pick up the pieces after stupidities and gotten plenty of insults for it and managed to be worth a couple points in elections.
    I’m tired of it. I’m tired of you all being years behind the fucking curve and cheerleading bullshit that hurts ordinary people and is electoral poison.
    You act as though something other than the Senate bill was ever going to pass with anything more than some minor nibbles around the edge. Now all you’ve got to do is count on Nancy Pelosi to do the job and get your shit bill passed. How the hell you’re going to defend this thing electorally is beyond me and nobody has to make shit up. They will, but…
    Not too long from now I’ll be getting a call from a Senate campaign, I’ve been damn useful to them. I’ll tell them to go hang, he’s not too bad a guy but I asked him six months ago what he’d think about people figuring the Senate was a wholly owned subsidiary of Banks and Ins Cos. He thought that would be pretty bad. So do I.
    I’ll still vote, probably, but any work I might do politically will be as an alternative to boredom rather than as an avocation or holding any particular meaning to me. I’ve got a lot of hobbies – and I don’t get insulted in any of them…

    What I need a lot of practice at is not giving a shit.

  306. 306.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    I am reading some of nutpicking the mindless drivel over at the GOS and it is both hilarious and sickening how much the extreme left sounds like the extreme right. They are claiming that the country is more progressive than the Democrats who are representing it and that it is all their fault for the loss in MA. The purity police are out in force!

    Of course there is the anti-corporate rant:

    The DLC is back and we are losing our majority. Obama needs to stop listening to the advice of Rham and the DLC aka…corporate wing of the democratic party….aka Republican light.

    Then there’s this tasty screed about Obama:

    Obama used the general populist anger the progressives (Dean and the bloggers)generated to get elected and then doused the flames of the anger by appointing dickhead DLCers to run his White House and Bush/Clinton/Bush economic advisors to reinflate the bubble rather than fix the fucking economy. In the process he has ignored the left and deflated enthusiasm for progressive participation that could lead to real change. Mostly because he doesn’t give a rat’s ass about the progressives.

    But that wasn’t screedy enough so…

    when he picked Rahm as chief of staff he was repudiating every single thing Dean stood for in his 03-04 presidential run, and everything he stood for as chair of DNC, despite the obvious success of Dean’s 50-state strategy as a direct override of Rahm’s “20 state Stategery” – the epitome of Top-Down triangulating Dems.
     
    Face it, however you want to semantically frame it, Obama can’t stand Dean’s candor, forthrightness, strength, and “no bullshit” approach. The approach that transformed the DNC from McAuliffe-Clinton era centrist crap to a new lean progressive machine.

    But they thank god that they have Jane Hamsher to lead the way out of this mess!

    /wrists

  307. 307.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    What I need a lot of practice at is not giving a shit.

    With myself, it’s more like knowing when to give a shit. I live my life expecting that things are only going to get worse and do the best I can to care for myself and those that I am responsible for. If something goes wrong and turns out good for the little guy like me then I have a good day, other than that it’s just living and making it all work.

    If I gave a shit about everything and tried to do something about everything that I disagree with, I wouldn’t have a life. You pick and choose your battles based on what you can actually accomplish. Being in a little town means that there is little that I can do, that’s life and there is no reason to let it get me down.

    In the meantime I get to use my verbal stick to poke fun at the dead bodies that float down this virtual river. It’s the small things in life…

  309. 309.

    rdalin

    Everyone needs to calm down. Getting worked up about this one senate seat is falling into the same trap as the progressives getting worked up about the health care bill. They barely had 60 anyway, and it only lasted for a few months of that year (and it included Lieberman!) Turning on the Dems now would the stupidest move we could make – there are plenty of democrats in congress to pass bills through reconciliation.

  310. 310.

    Paula

    But what if all you want to do is be a bitch?

    Actually, not @ Coakley. By most accounts her campaign was saddled with laziness and incompetence. Mostly, I’m getting ready to spend the next 6 months laughing my ass off at so-called progressives who argued that a loss would “teach the Democrats a lesson” and then ended up with Scott Brown pooping all over anything resembling a liberal agenda.

  311. 311.

    DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)

    @ranger11:

    I used to post there back before 2005 but I had to bail as I couldn’t tolerate the purity police, the comment ratings, the hiding of comments that might burn my eyes, the nonstop abuse of the TU system and a myriad other things about the place that I couldn’t stand. There are some good posters over there but I have seen some good people who made the rec list (not the wreck list) get fed up with the bullshit and walk away. I can’t say that I blame them one bit either. The place is a giant fruitcake, with the Firebaggers, Teagaggers and PUMAs being the icing on top and the ratfuckers gnawing away at it from the inside. It’s a mosh pit of stupid with a few bright spots on occasion.

    I think of it as going to the zoo to see the wildlife. ;)

  312. 312.

    Sanka

    Yes, Corzine, who was hated by NJ voters and polling 20 points behind, the ex Goldman Sachs guy

    Good god. Corzine was tied to Obama’s hip. Everywhere you went in Jersey, especially the bluer Northern counties (Hudson, Essex, Passaic) you saw things like this.

    Corzine, like Deeds, tried to ride the wave of Obamafevah and people just got sick. Corzine did everything Obama is trying to do—taxes, spending up the wazoo, the f–k the “rich” mentality, meanwhile just like Obama, he partied with “the rich” themselves. The only difference is that Corzine was a GS guy, while Obama just hired them for his coterie of economic “advisers”.

    Keep thinking that Obama is not the problem.

  313. 313.

    mr. whipple

    @Paula:

    Mostly, I’m getting ready to spend the next 6 months laughing my ass off at so-called progressives who argued that a loss would “teach the Democrats a lesson” and then ended up with Scott Brown pooping all over anything resembling a liberal agenda.

    This has been the most amazing thing to watch. People couldn’t be happy for a minute. I would check the blogs and there were critical, snide, nasty posts before inauguration.

    From there it’s been all downhill, with the relentless ‘do what I want done, yesterday’ advice/demands, without a good word to say about anything.

    It’s been so depressing. I clicked off Olberman long ago, then Rachel(Hi Rachel!), then blogs one by one.

    My #1 reason for working for Obama was HCR, and my wife and I would have benefitted greatly. Thanks to blue dog assholes, and yes, the progressives, they will ensure that I remain uninsured for the next 17 years until I can qualify for Medicare. But I’m told by the progressives this is for my own good. Thanks for the hand up, fellow travelers! Well played.

  314. 314.

    El Cid

    They are claiming that the country is more progressive than the Democrats who are representing it and that it is all their fault for the loss in MA

    I’m not sure about tying that to the loss in MA, but that’s not some weird viewpoint by ‘progressives’ or the ‘extreme left’, but rather consistent with most surveys and polling data.

    People and views do fluctuate, but most of the time the population when asked about issues do tend to be more progressive than the government, and the Democratic leaders’ positions, and this was true in the Reagan era — even after winning a massive re-election, people would on surveys claim to oppose most of his agenda.

  315. 315.

    El Cid

    Excuse me — what is that mechanism again by which ‘progressives’ made it more difficult to pass HCR?

  316. 316.

    Michael

    Awesome. I’m 18 years from Medicare, with a shitty, expensive policy that pays for nothing. Progressive Activists helped frame the message on this bill, a bill which will, as a by-product, help my 15 year old who had some bad cells in a biopsy on a now-removed birthmark actually get insurance, as she’s unratable. Imagine starting life screwed.

    I want them to die in a fire, particularly Jane and her little dog, Phoenix Twunt.

  317. 317.

    El Cid

    I think Democrats should definitely blame this everything on ‘the left’ and ‘progressives’, because it’s what they have done for the entire time I’ve been alive.

  318. 318.

    Demo Woman

    The new developments just suck. Ben Nelson’s amendment was a poison pill. If the house passes the Senate bill as is, ever democratic candidate will have to explain why they voted for Ben Nelson’s amendment.
    Phoenix Women lives in the land of fairies if she thinks that the Senate will pass the bill through reconciliation.

  319. 319.

    A Mom Anon

    I’d like to know what the actual present day definition of “progressive”is because my definition and the current one don’t seem to match at all.

    To me,progressive means to move FORWARD and do the most good for the most people with the resources at our disposal. It means supporting the worker bees of this country,the middle class,the people who make things go in a real and tangible way(imagine life without trash pick up or someone to fix broken water mains for example). It means taking care of each other and having a sense of real community where you are. I don’t think that’s radical or naive.

    Gah. I can’t even get my neighbors together for potluck suppers and co-operative gardening projects because they are sooooo scared some of my evildemondebbil liberalism might rub off on them. If the GOP has done anything I cannot forgive,it’s this,the dividing of communities(which,don’tcha know is the root of communism) and ruining of families and friendships. I’m sick of it.

  320. 320.

    El Cid

    I hate to mention it, and I hate that I didn’t think of it, but one analyst I was listening to pointed out that few actual voters in Massachusetts, when asked, did not clearly grasp the whole ’60 votes’ thing, so it’s also possible that a lot of Mass. Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents didn’t think it was as crucial as people more familiar with following the news do — i.e., ‘well, Democrats will still have a majority,’ and all the stuff about filibuster and cloture, etc., just sort of aren’t clear.

  321. 321.

    slightly_peeved

    most of the time the population when asked about issues do tend to be more progressive than the government, and the Democratic leaders’ positions, and this was true in the Reagan era—even after winning a massive re-election, people would on surveys claim to oppose most of his agenda.

    And yet, at least two of the US presidents of the past 30 years have been right-wing idiots.

    What came first – the US Democrats who discounted the left, because they stayed home? Or the US leftists who stayed home, because the Democrats discounted them?

  322. 322.

    El Cid

    @slightly_peeved: I’d be more than happy to blame all sorts of things on people being idiots and lazy and for failing to vote the way they should, but apparently elections in real life don’t respond to that.

    There are people who believe that the spin that is put upon elected leaders’ policies will completely make the difference and therefore if voters do or don’t turn out it has less to do with policies than the amount of carping or cheerleading from, say, liberal and/or ‘left’ pundits.

    Maybe that’s true. Maybe if every single writer and blogger and radio/TV pundit had maintained a consistent ‘line’ then there would be tremendous energy and excitement among the actual voters you’re hoping turn out and vote in a certain way.

    Me? I doubt it. Yes, there’s a good bit of spin involved, and Democratic elected leaders seem to not be able to present their case for their ideas and their programs if the nation’s life depended on it — and it does — but I don’t think voters are so easily programmed.

    Voters may not be the most reasonable creatures, but you just can’t assume that they will loyally do what you want. I wish that the elected Democratic leadership once in office remembered some of what they often use on the actual campaign trail.

    It seems to me that a lot of Democrats are really good at campaigning — not just individually, but the entire mechanism of polling and outreach, etc. — but once in office they turn off the part of their brain that ensures that policies and programs are linked up with what average people see and hear.

    If every single labor union and leftie writer had shut up or had dedicated themselves to write happy things about NAFTA which they didn’t believe but which they were told would help keep a Democratic Congress, would it have worked? Would Democratic turnout have increased in 1994? Maybe. I doubt it. Were the consequences of that lack of turnout disastrous for the very voters who didn’t turn out? Of course.

  323. 323.

    Demo Woman

    @El Cid: Does anyone actually understand the 60 vote thing? You can bet that 60 vote thing disappears when the repubs regain control.

  324. 324.

    El Cid

    Crap. Mixed up the various negatives.

    What an analyst pointed out was that most Massachusetts people she had talked to did not understand the ’60 votes’ theme of the election.

    Many simply didn’t understand that a majority of Democrats in the Senate wasn’t enough according to complex Senate rules that aren’t in the Constitution.

    If you read the NYT, an older female Massachusetts Democrat voter explains that she voted for Brown to send a message to Washington to ‘stop the giveaways and bring the jobs’, which, of course, is the opposite effect that her vote will have, but this is how actual voters deal with stuff.

  325. 325.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @A Mom Anon

    “they are sooooo scared some of my evildemondebbil liberalism might rub off on them.”

    They must think you have a great deal of power! Why wouldn’t they accept your invitations or participate in your initiatives in the hope and expectation that some of *their* jeebusgodthumpingteabaggingwingular conservatism might rub off on *you*? From their perspective, that would seem to be the logi . . .

    Oh wait.

  326. 326.

    Demo Woman

    @El Cid:

    that aren’t in the Constitution.

    Maybe the democratic party will label the Republicans as obstructionists. Oh never mind they are democrats.

  327. 327.

    The Other Steve

    @slightly_peeved:

    What came first – the US Democrats who discounted the left, because they stayed home? Or the US leftists who stayed home, because the Democrats discounted them?

    The US left who voted for Reagan because they are too stupid to understand the difference.

    Elections have nothing to do with policy matters. It’s all about personalities and until the moronic Democrats understand this they’re going to continue to be ineffectual jackasses.

  328. 328.

    slightly_peeved

    @El Cid:

    That consistent line has been working pretty well for the other side for the past thirty years. As the past couple of years have shown, it can’t trump reality, but it’s helped the Republicans.

    If you want an example of a left-leaning government with strong party discipline, British Labor is a good example. The British Labor government would have fallen apart under Blair if the factions had had the kind of public spats the Blue Dogs and the Yellow Dogs do. They are now, and they’re looking pretty doomed at the moment, because the Conservatives have united behind their leader.

    I wish that the elected Democratic leadership once in office remembered some of what they often use on the actual campaign trail.

    This I completely agree with, but I think this is one of the roles of party discipline. When the party has good things to talk about, you make sure everyone talks about them. You present a consistent sales pitch. You keep the arguments between the left and right wings of your party behind closed doors, work out the compromise, then go out to the public and sell the whole policy. Sometimes the yellow dogs have to sell the shit sandwich, but sometimes the blue dogs do, and you make sure everyone in the party gets to sell enough non-shit sandwiches that voters still want to go out and buy them.

  329. 329.

    Demo Woman

    @A Mom Anon: The GOP decided that they were the family values party. If by family values, they mean loss of common decency, they can have that label.
    Did you post Abby’s photo yet?

  331. 331.

    Sly

    FWIW:

    SSP has a map up that shows the voting breakdown by town here. Compare with Nov. 2008 here.

    The towns Brown was able to swing in the past month were all places that Obama took in 2008 by a few points. Under normal election conditions, this wouldn’t be a big deal. But turnout in and around Boston was pretty shitty. This gives a bit of credence, I think, to this GOS diary claiming that Coakley’s loss was due to dissatisfaction the Boston faction of the party had towards the primary back in early December. The Boston machine never got behind Coakley, so the GOTV effort in eastern Mass. never materialized.

    I didn’t even know Mumbles Menino didn’t back her up after Dec. 8th. What a fiasco.

  332. 332.

    The Other Steve

    @Sly: Yep, apparently nobody liked her inside the party. Not sure why she won the nomination. I guess she felt it was her time or something.

  333. 333.

    Sly

    @The Other Steve:

    Alan Khazei and Steve Pagliuca were both Bostonites and somewhat popular, but they never had the backing of the Boston establishment because they’re not elected officials. They shared 25% of the primary result between them. That was enough to shift the race to Coakley (47%), who was the only candidate from western MA.

  334. 334.

    El Cid

    @slightly_peeved: I do not agree with your assessment of Labour, and nor, does it seems, do most of the British public. To characterize the consequences of the Blair policy choices — particularly the Iraq war — and the failures of Gordon Brown in policymaking as some sort of lack of party discipline is just weird.

  335. 335.

    El Cid

    @slightly_peeved: Further, this is much more complicated than for Republicans, because the Democratic Party really does represent fundamentally opposed interests.

    This isn’t just people making noise — in the Democratic Party, you really do have different politicians fundamentally opposed to the agendas of their fellow party members — and unless you can think of a magic way to keep getting average Democratic voters to turn out and elect Democratic politicians who will, on every issue, 100% support the most conservative and/or business-oriented Democrats, this situation of real, and difficult, tension will continue.

    There’s no magic ‘discipline’ that could possibly wave that away. It’s real. And it’s difficult.

  336. 336.

    Mnemosyne

    @Sly:

    At the state level, quite a bit. There’s a pretty big disparity in the ease of getting abortion services in New York or California compared to, say, Utah. For all intents and purposes, it’s practically illegal in Mississippi, where there are only two providers in the entire state. A lot of this has to do with state laws that are designed to limit abortion but don’t necessarily rise to the Undue Burden standard that was applied to abortion regulations in Casey.

    Which, actually, goes to my point: they went for incremental change and kept pushing and pushing and pushing tiny amounts of change until they got to the point where they have functionally reached their goal even if abortion isn’t actually illegal. Which means they can also keep using it as an issue to run on since it is still technically legal.

    They actually understand that incremental changes over the course of years can create major changes. If only liberals could manage to understand the same thing instead of screaming because we’re “only” making incremental changes.

  337. 337.

    Mnemosyne

    @ranger11:

    I guess all that “storming the gates” stuff meant storming the gates of the asylum.

    When you can’t even get Markos — the supposed architect of the “more and better Democrats” idea — to stay on board long enough to try and primary Blanche Lincoln and Evan Bayh this fall, you know your movement has fallen apart.

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