TPM reports that Kucinich is lobbying holdouts to vote for healthcare reform.
Good for him. He’s been showing some grit and class, along with real concern for his constituents, and I’m re-thinking my take on the guy.
Reader Interactions
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Zifnab
They say the most zealous of followers are the converts. And besides, I imagine Dennis doesn’t want to see his highly publicized flip end in a failed bill.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
I’m feeling optimistic. The CBO score made my morning.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Not being snarky, and good on him, but aren’t all the remaining “undecideds” Blue Dogs? How much influence does DK have with them?
Cat Lady
All signs are pointing to go. Whatever the day after this passes is, Obama should introduce his immigration bill. I’m a steamroller, baby!
Tom in NOLA
I’m shocked and awed. Turns out he is in fact a friendly elf.
In all seriousness, good for him. It’s the right thing to do
Bulworth
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
That was my thought, too. Only it isn’t so much the deficit peacocks among the Blue Dogs as it the anti-choicers among the Blue Dogs. Even though this bill and its Nelson Amendment is not all that good for abortion choice, for some reason the Stupakers still think it isn’t anti-choice enough.
Chuchundra
All hands on deck, people.
Elisabeth
That must have been one heck of a plane ride; must have got to steer the plane and join the mile-high club.
Whatever the reason, though, good on Dennis. Seriously.
geg6
The fact that many of the holdouts are the forced birthers makes Kucinich valuable in this. Dennis has a looooooooong forced birth record from before he decided he’d like to be preznit.
Good on Dennis. Wags are saying that he NEVER whips votes.
Max
Obama’s a pus$y. No one respects him. Oh, wait, that’s not what that means at all.
/O-bot
r€nato
You mean that working with people is more productive than being a purist ideologue? Imagine that.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
Am listening to John Mccain blabbing on the senate floor for the eleventy thousanth time about the evils of earmarks. Somebody should send a recording with the next thing we blast into deep space, so an alien society may one day listen to it for a good laugh, or cry, as is their wont. They may decide we are all too stupid to exist and vaporize the planet from orbit, just to be sure.
mistermix
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Couldn’t Dennis, as a Catholic who recently changed to a pro-choice position, at least get a hearing from the Stupak wing? I’m sure he has some real practical knowledge of the effect of his change on people in his district.
WereBear
@Bulworth: They think they are better than 50,000 nuns!
Ha! If I were God/dess, I would be readying some thunderbolts right now…
Fergus Wooster
I heard him on the radio this morning – he was sober and articulate on his disappointment in the bill, and on his conclusion that killing the bill would devastate any chances for real reform for decades.
He explicitly rejected “starting over” as a fantastical notion.
For a guy who believes in
invisible sky wizardsUFO’s, he was surprisingly grounded and logical. Who knew.Andy
@Elisabeth:
Did the hot redhead wife go along? Just wondering.
Seriously, good on him.
General Egali Tarian Stuck
You all leave Dennis alloooooon! He is good people from whatever planet he came from. I hearts the Dennis.
mistersnrub
@Cat Lady:
Perfect. Make Tancredo and the xenophobic nativists the Conservative poster boys right up to the 2010 elections.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@WereBear: I guess that’s it. An army of nuns, in full-on penguin regalia and armed with rulers is a scary thought.
@Fergus Wooster:
Mirabile dictu, I am in 100 per cent agreement with The Hobbit. (Actually, I often am. I’ve disagreed about means more than ends.)
mr. whipple
Not at all. For instance, there’s the Marcy Kapture’s of the world that need a BIG push.
cleek
good for him. but this doesn’t change his legislative record . he’s still historically useless.
Ash Can
@Elisabeth: must have got to steer the plane and join the mile-high club.
Or maybe he just got rattled by the sound of Rahm’s knuckles cracking.
unabogie
This is really a great move for Kucinich. Sometimes, you have to suck it up and do what needs to be done. This has been like preparing for a flood and arguing over what color the sand bags should be. Get some bags up, then everyone can go back and fill the bags of their choice to shore it up.
Seth 4:10
Ok, i’ve stopped being a whiny quitter and called my Rep (Bean IL-08).
BR
There are also unsteady progressive dems not giving a clear answer, like Mike Capuano and Susan Davis. They’re “supportive of health care reform” but are “waiting to see”. Does Kucinich carry weight with them? Who knows, but it’s not just blue dogs that are less than firm.
Michael D.
@Elisabeth:
My understanding is that they took a side trip to Area 51 and the Reynolds Wrap factory.
Barbara
If Kildee (with the same initials) who actually attended a seminary to become a priest can’t get Stupak’s attention, well, I don’t think Kucinich, who ditched his anti-choice credentials in search of greater glory, can.
I take back all the mean things I’ve said about Kucinich, though I do resent his opportunism on the issue of abortion. Ultimately, though, I do judge a politician by what he does not what he says and Kucinich is doing the right thing, so many kudos to him.
Ash Can
OT, but that AFSCME ad up on the top left is cracking my shit right up.
LarsThorwald
Looks like a sojourn to the wilderness for Jane Hamsher and her ilk.
Tom Hilton
Good for him–I really didn’t expect this at all.
That’s it right there. This is history, and the outcome depends on how many of the holdouts understand that.
vheidi
@Michael D.: Win.
cat48
Hmm, if Obama had this effect on Kucinich after a few meetings and a townhall in his district, maybe we should petition Obama to pls take them all out for special attention so they will all have attitude adjustments. I doubt it would help repugs though.
Rhoda
If you’re in his district, Rep. Michael Arcuri (D-NY) has said he’ll vote no according to TPM.
He voted yes before; I don’t know what he’s thinking since he’s voted for a more liberal version of reform.
Michael D.
@Rhoda: God, he’s cute. I would hate to have to hate him!
beltane
@Rhoda: Sounds like he’s in need of a few phone calls.
Mike Kay
@LarsThorwald:
Well, I’ve been calling on her to resign
https://balloon-juice.com/2010/03/18/cbo-scores-are-in/#comment-1631301
Redshift
@Bulworth:
If they don’t give a damn about the actual purpose of the bill and see it only as a bargaining chip, then as long as they have leverage, it isn’t anti-choice enough. There’s no actual factual level of anti-choice that they’re seeking, just “as much as we can get.”
arguingwithsignposts
@Ash Can:
Are you sure that was knuckles?
General Egali Tarian Stuck
Fucking Harry Teague still hasn’t made up his feeble mind. I was reminded by the staffer that he voted against the first House bill, and I reminded him that his liberal base from which he needs to get reelected even in this red district will not vote for him, and I wouldn’t as well. He asked for my name and address, then started yammering about how this is a different bill so he might change his mind. I relayed that might be wise.
Michael D.
CBO Analysis
Jamey
@jim
Before we go off underestimating Kucinich’s powers of persuasion, remember: He convinced her to marry him.
Mike Kay
said by…. wait for it… Jane Hamsher
Yes, stupak is lying through his teeth on HCR funding abortion, but somehow Jane equates lies and grandstanding with conviction. Some people will say and do anything to sink HCR.
Joey Maloney
@Ash Can: Or maybe he just got rattled by the sound of Rahm’s knuckles cracking.
I figure Rahm dragged him back into the Presidential bath suite for a shower. Then afterwards Michele rocked him in her sweet, sweet arms until his tears dried.
Fergus Wooster
@Mike Kay: Unbelievable. To think there was a time that I read Hamsher and approved.
Christ on a bike. She’s either a paid ratf###er or she’s truly gone off the deep end.
Kathy
Just called my rep Allyson Schwartz, the staffer sounded happy to hear a friendly voice. All of you with non-asshole reps, call to give them a morale boost.
Nick
My money is on Elizabeth being the one who convinced him to flip his vote.
Michael D.
Dems are risking seats by supporting HCR – Pete Sessions.
Every Democrat who supports HCR needs to use this – or something similar – in their campaigns:
“I know HCR wasn’t popular with a lot of people, but I don’t put politics first. I do what’s right – even if it means I won’t get re-elected. My Republican opponent does what’s popular because s/he is most interested in holding onto a House or Senate seat. I will always do what’s right, whatever the outcome for me, personally.”
Joseph Nobles
Meanwhile, Glenn Greenwald has worn out his Rahm doll and needs one depicting the Professional Left.
He is for the bill. He is against the bill. He is against the unprincipled Democrats and progressives who said they wouldn’t vote for the bill and then changed their mind. He is for the principled Democrats and progressives who said they wouldn’t vote for the bill and then changed their minds. He thinks that Rahm was wrong. He thinks that Rahm was right.
Indeed, the only thing crystal clear in this hairsplitting argument is that he, Glenn Greenwald, is, has been, and shall always be right.
Ash Can
@Michael D.: Whoa, he is easy on the eyes. You have impeccable taste, Mr. D. :)
blackwaterdog
Yes. Good for him. Time for his biggest fans to take notes: The only way to make progress is to *actually* make progress.
The Main Gauche of Mild Reason
I thing everyone is misunderstanding the Stupak wing. They’re not holding out because they think the bill will be less abortion restrictive than the status quo, they already know that it isn’t. They’re holding out because they want something considerably more restrictive. They want their pound of flesh so that they can go back to the pro-lifers among their constituents and say they struck a blow against abortion.
It seems some of them have decided that being persona non grata in the Democratic party isn’t worth it and have decided to support the bill, but I think it’s pretty clear that this was always the plan.
Rhoda
@Michael D.: He is, but like my mother always said, it’s the pretty ones with the easy smiles you gotta watch.
rob!
I’ve called John Adler (D-NJ) half a dozen times, and he’s still leaning on No. AAAAARRRRRRGGGGH.
The fucker ran on Obama’s coattails in November, and now he’s wimping out.
beltane
@Mike Kay: It’s official: Hamsher is either a wingnut or a lunatic. I vote for lunatic.
Ed in NJ
Whoever originally published that analysis of Kucinich’s voting record deserves alot of credit. I think he realized that principled opposition is a nuance not easily explained away to the sound bite generation. What they heard is he’s a dick, and has done nothing in forever. This is legacy-building for him. He is trying to be remembered as the lynchpin of progressive reform that starts with this bill.
El Cid
And if this passes, and I think it will, there will be much crying and weeping and gnashing of teeth by Republicans and Teatards alike, and Democrats and liberals will look upon them, and feel no sorrow.
Allan
@Fergus Wooster: Are we sure it’s an either/or situation?
schrodinger's cat
@beltane: Is there a difference?
Terry
Boy, some of these Ohio “Democrats” are really chapping my ass. I’ve contributed time and money to help some of them get elected (Yeah, I mean you, Mary Jo Kilroy!) and their excuses for not supporting the HCR bill are lame or disingenuous. Kaptor and Driehaus are especially irritating with their Stupakidy. The Senate language on abortion was written by pro-life Senators and I expect it will actually lead to fewer abortions due both to less abortion insurance coverage and to better health care for pregnant women. That’s not even mentioning the larger argument about health and lives beyond a narrow focus on abortions.
Sherrod Brown and Dennis Kuchinich are the most sensible and admirable Dems in Ohio on HCR. Who’d a thunk it?
Allan
@beltane: Again, both can be true.
boonagain
In calling my Congressman Ellsworth’s office today, I misdialed AC 205 insead of 202 and an exasperated lady who answered explained my mistake very patiently. By the fact that she knew what area code I meant to dial tells me she has been the recipient of many such calls.
I felt terrible for bothering her, but something tells me that the phone systems in 202 must be very busy today and that many of us must have misdialed in our haste to call.
John S.
@Mike Kay:
Now you’ve done it! You attacked Lady Jane, which will send out an alarm to Fuckhead who cannot resist riding to her defense.
@Joseph Nobles:
Now you’ve done it! You attacked Sir Glenn, which will send out an alarm to all those who cannot resist riding to his defense.
Man the ramparts, Juicers, for we are surely about to besieged.
sparky
“I know HCR wasn’t popular with a lot of people, but I don’t put politics first. I do what’s right – even if it means I won’t get re-elected. My Republican opponent does what’s popular because s/he is most interested in holding onto a House or Senate seat. I will always do what’s right, whatever the outcome for me, personally.”
this after the rate reviewer has been kicked out of reconciliation and the revelation that there never was any intent to have a public option. what do you think is going to happen this fall when these stories get into the public discourse?
i must say, i am astounded that you all are still deluding yourselves this way. i can understand wanting to keep the GOP out, but this is not the way to do it. oh and good luck with the monster you just put in the driver’s seat.
jibeaux
I still think his pitch out to be, “are you really less in touch with reality than Dennis Kucinich is, or do you just want your voters to think you are?” But he hasn’t called to ask me about my strategery yet.
Uloborus
I… do not forgive easily. ‘Too principled to do anything useful’ is a pretty serious accusation in my book, and I’m always first worried that someone like this is only turning it around because they’ve realized they look more heroic giving speeches for rather than against.
On the other hand, you know, ‘Mea culpa, let’s do this thing’ – that is also quite strong. So I’ll just hold the door open and decide on Mister D. later. Right now there’s people who still are in the way.
ellaesther
I have to admit I was expecting the stand-up guy Dennis Kucinich to show up before all was said and done on HCR. He’s got some real standards, I think, and most of our government doesn’t often meet them, so he often serves as the prophet in the wilderness, and that is (honestly) an important role. But he’s not in the prophet-in-the-wilderness business for his own ego — he really means it. So (it’s my impression) that he also does the work and looks people in the eye and makes decisions about how to achieve important ends with the least amount of damage.
Or, in other words, he’s no Ralph Nader.
(Ok, I know that Nader wasn’t entirely in it for his own ego, but apparently his ego plays a muchmuchMUCH bigger role than we were once led to believe…. I think you see my point).
Fergus Wooster
@Allan: Point taken. I suppose the question should be, in what sequence did these things occur.
Michael
OT – In Jane Hamsher’s Universe, Planned Parenthood is a sellout on abortion rights.
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2010/03/18/one-more-time-as-choice-circles-the-drain/#comments
How long until she attacks NARAL?
ETA: Never mind – I should’ve read my own link closer. She already did.
Joseph Nobles
@John S.:
Well, good lord. I like reading Greenwald when he makes sense. That article, however, is the most minutely hashed equivocation I’ve read in a long while. I guess you really can’t fault what someone says when they’re standing on the ashes of Camelot.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Rhoda: Doesn’t NY have all those smaller parties–ballot lines?– to keep pols in line? Is Acuri running any risk of getting a third candidate on the ballot? Seems to me this is a really stupid way to run a close race, given NY’s unique (AFAIK) system.
Violet
Good for Dennis! Oh, to have been a fly on the wall on Air Force One. Lolz.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@John S.: BTD will take up both their defenses.
El Cruzado
@Terry: It’s “Stupakidity”. Please spell it right.
Mike Kay
@Michael:
she did in the very same post. Here’s her quote: “And NARAL — well, they just suck.”
some guy
@cleek:
The ACLU found Dennis more useful than Hillary or Obama.
http://action.aclu.org/site/VoteCenter?repId=477&page=legScore
http://action.aclu.org/site/VoteCenter?repId=455&page=legScore
http://action.aclu.org/site/VoteCenter?repId=25424&page=legScore
As did the Human Rights Campaign.
http://www.hrc.org/documents/Congress_Scorecard-110th.pdf
And the League of Conservation Voters.
http://www.lcv.org/2008-pdf.pdf
But who cares what the civil liberties hippies, the GLBT hippies, and the environmentalist hippies think. Nate Silver and John Cole say he’s useless so it must be so.
eemom
well, Kuch has to do something to take his mind off the fact that he is no longer Jane Hamsher’s hero.
As the old song goes, “I found somebody new to take your place……”
sparky
hmmm…comment editing a no go, so i will say this here because i haven’t been ignored in a while….
@John S.:
1. kinda sad that the attacks against GG here are basically variants of he’s shrill. when someone actually proves his facts–as distinct from conjectures–wrong, then there will be something to discuss.
2. as for Jane since i don’t read her i don’t know what she’s up to. but i do find it interesting that the apparent party apparatchiks here see fit to establish a level of purity that requires cringe-inducing servitude. who knew that if you made a single deviation from party orthodoxy you were unfit to express your opinion on anything?
LuciaMia
Meanwhile Boehner keeps spinning his old broken record, ‘The Democrats are ramming, ramming , ramming this bill down the American people’s throat..”
Who knew the Democratic process was ‘ramming?’
Also, sure you said ‘ramming’ enough times, O Orange One?
Joseph Nobles
OT: Apparently Lt. Dan Choi has chained himself to the White House fence over DADT.
Civil disobedience RULES.
geg6
@sparky:
Because failing to implement legislation you have been fighting for over a year to get done is always a winning strategy, right?
Look, I have many problems with this bill. But I’m not stupid enough to think your outlook is how Dems win on anything.
Dr. Morpheus
@Jamey:
Every time I see a picture of her the uncontrollable drooling starts.
Yeah, Dennis must have a way with words that is misunderestimated.
Mike Kay
@Joseph Nobles: Oh, he is so gonna get laid this weekend.
Michael
Comments at FDL lead me to think that the guys with white coats and butterfly nets need to arrive soon.
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2010/03/18/yes-rahm-is-totally-vindicated/#comments
Rhoda
Rep. Stephen Lynch (D-Mass.) is a no on the bill after having voted yes; it’s because he doesn’t accept the deal the unions made on the cadillac tax. He’s refusing to take calls from the White House and the unions are pushing him hard but it doesn’t look like it’s working.
WTF is it w/these folks? The tax doesn’t kick in for a while; they can work to take it out later or I don’t know; run on a public option and make that available as well? I know this is a principled issue; but it’s one coming down the line and fixable in the future.
Make history today!
Seriously, the more I read the more frustrated I get.
Joe Lisboa
2. as for Jane since i don’t read her i don’t know what she’s up to. but i do find it interesting that the apparent party apparatchiks here see fit to establish a level of purity that requires cringe-inducing servitude. who knew that if you made a single deviation from party orthodoxy you were unfit to express your opinion on anything?
That’s pretty rich or you’re a fantastic spoof. Either way, thanks for the content-free laugh. Try harder.
Mike Kay
@Michael: FDL as turned into a magnet for all the PUMA and Edwards Hippie dead enders.
Rhoda
@Sparky:
Right now everything has been poisoned by a laser like focus on process best seen through the lens of the FOX interview the president did yesterday.
Pass the bill and the issue is substance;and after passing massive reform the democrats can run on ADDITIONAL reform. Nothing is stopping that from happening. The public option is popular and has broad national support. If DEMS are smart it’ll be an issue in 2010 and if they can’t pass it they’ll run on this again in 2012.
But it all starts with passing this imperfect bill and building on it in the future. Plus, if we can’t govern then why elect Democrats? That’s a huge part of why DEMS lost in ’94.
Success breeds success and I think passing this and then having a substantive discussion on financial reform will set the table to limited losses in 2010. Through Dodd’s already getting stuck in a process story on how he’s bringing his bill to the committee, lol. But hopefully; they’ll learn.
They’ve already recognized the importance of deadlines. And the President’s realized he needs to hold the senate’s hand too thanks to the leaks to WashPo from Dems.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@sparky:
Making fun of a self-important dingbat is not merely “orthodoxy”, but “servitude”? Heavens to murgatroid! What will become of us?
freelancer
@Joseph Nobles:
Eh, I’m of two minds about this. I am completely sympathetic with Choi, and I want DADT repealed as much as anyone who believes in equal rights. However, IIRC, the DADT proceedings for Choi had been suspended and he had been allowed to return and actively serve with his unit. Unless something has changed with the status of his not being discharged, I don’t see how this protest that grandstands right as HCR is on the cusp doesn’t make him look a little like the crazy mixed-messaging of Cindy Sheehan.
I saw the comment and my first thought was “Oy”. To me, this is looking like the fractious left trying usurp liberal momentum for their own special causes.
FlipYrWhig
@sparky:
And HCR opponents certainly avoid both establishing a high level of purity and condemning heterodoxy! All along they’ve shown themselves to be very broad-minded and tolerant!
Joseph Nobles
Slightly more ridiculous than the Greenwald article, Rep. Steve King of Iowa just tweeted:
That’s how serious Obama is about health care reform: he PARKED HIS PLANE. He’s threatening national security by not having the plane idling on the tarmac! All for SOCIALIZED MED’CINE!
Re: Choi – He’s still being discharged. His remarks before the action are at Pam’s House Blend.
Common Sense
@boonagain:
Or there’s a lotta welfare recipients worried about the government sticking their hand in their Medicare. Their eyesight ain’t the best, you know.
gwangung
The irony is quite amusing.
FlipYrWhig
@Joseph Nobles: Who does that Obama think he is, giving orders about the Presidential plane?
liberal
OT: Can I recommend a comment made in an older comment section?
https://balloon-juice.com/2010/03/17/fuck-you-im-short-your-house/comment-page-1/#comment-1631368
That commenter really has the goods on Michael Lewis.
gwangung
This seems obvious to me. Why is this a problem for some folks?
Ed Drone
@beltane:
And the difference is?
Ed
EDIT: Dang — second again!
liberal
@ellaesther:
Well, he really was, actually.
(OT: apologized in the other thread; was dead wrong)
Darkmoth
It’s kind of weird how the Progressosphere CW is that the Left got “rolled”, specifically on the Public Option.
As best I can tell, if 5% of us were mandated to pay $300/mo to the government, that would be a Progressive vindication, but if that 5% must pay $300/mo to Wellpoint it means no one takes Progressives seriously.
Maybe Progressives realized the difference wasn’t worth killing the bill? Nah, they must be wimps.
geg6
@Michael:
Wow. Full on gliberarian paradise going on over there at FDL, isn’t there?
And there in bold, he/she gives up the whole game. They never had this person’s vote. Never. They are all liars about their agenda over there. All that talk about moving the Overton window and “real” progressives was bullshit. Grover Norquist has found his new home and I can’t believe that was my go-to blog during the Libby trial (though Marcy did do great work there). So glad they got deleted from my blog roll a long time ago. That way I’m not even temped.
John S.
@sparky:
1. You must have missed the ridiculous display GG put on here trying to defend his bullshit conjecture about Rahmbo. Facts had nothing to do with that, as Glenn was fairly impervious to them. But he is a legend in his own mind, and apparently yours.
2. It’s particularly rich that you seek to disparage the commentariat here with exactly the mindset put on by Purity Jane and her minions. Obviously, you haven’t been paying attention. Stick to your GG worship, you’re less likely to eat crow.
freelancer
@John S.:
STFU Michael Moore, firebagger.
ETA: I did enjoy Capitalism, but there were moments where it felt like he went out of his way to go way over the top to bash Bush for the decision to engage TARP. You can blame him for the economic wreckage leading up to TARP and Paulson for the $ with no oversight or judicial review, but it was in fact a necessary evil enacted to prevent this country, and the world, for that matter to prevent us from going the way of Iceland.
Elizabelle
DougJ bait:
The WaPost (aka Daily Kaplan) does a takedown on Al Franken. He’s a mean guy, you see. Even Amy Klobuchar doesn’t like him much (implied by unnamed sources — could they possibly be Republican?)
John McCain takes him to task for harming “the comity of the Senate.” Franken’s even chewed out one of Bob Corker’s Republican senate staffers. John Thune finds Franken vitriolic.
Here’s blurb on WaPo online:
“Al Franken’s efforts to convince senators he’s no court jester expose an irascible, sometimes nasty side of his personality.”
They even link to a WaPost User Poll: do you think Franken should stay in the Senate? WTF?
Too bad he can’t take manners lessons from that nice Senator McConnell.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/17/AR2010031703618.html?hpid=topnews
Robin G.
I maintain that Dennis Kucinich is a drama queen who flopped on this because he stuck his finger in the wind. That being said, if we shut out all the drama queens from this process, there’d be no one left on the House floor. So I’m more than happy to benefit from his opportunism.
@Elizabelle: Franken pissing off the WaPo makes me love him even more.
geg6
@freelancer:
Ummm, no. Not really.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389×7938027
His feelings on this bill are not far from mine. But he still supports passing the bill, shitty as he thinks it is. But, sure, go ahead and shit all over him since it seems to make you feel good.
BR
If any of you live in Massachusetts, get on the phone with your congressperson, especially if you’re in Mike Capuano’s district. It looks like a number of the MA reps are “undecided”, probably because they’re seeing it as a “we already have health reform in MA, so who cares about the nation” situation.
And ask them to lean on their colleagues in the MA delegation to vote yes.
jibeaux
Michael Moore just makes me groan. I’d say he’s right about the majority of things, and so the stretches he makes are just too far. We really can discuss the awfulness of the fact that a schoolkid in a depressed town took a handgun to school and accidentally shot a classmate, and have an accompanying larger discussion about guns, without resorting to blaming Dick Clark for the shooting. It’s aggravating to have someone who is generally right at his core going to such absurd and unnecessary lengths to make a point that they make the whole point seem invalid. Of course, that probably makes him all the more famous.
eemom
@geg6:
This provides further support for my theory about what Jane’s endgame is gonna be. She’s gonna lead her cultbots, not to Guyana (unfortunately), but right over into the waiting arms of full metal teabaggerdom, where Uncle Grover will get her a regular gig on Fox as a lefty defector come to Jesus, so that she can rant every night about what corporateselloutwhoretrolls the entire Democratic party is and how Rahm Emmanuel is the Antichrist.
Kind of like what Glenn Beck was hoping to get from Massa…….only I’m sure the hate-spewing Fire Queen is gonna actually deliver the goods.
Ed Drone
@sparky:
Something that occurs to me every once in a while is how the public option gets vilified by the opponents of reform, but would have led totally to total demagoguery by the Republicans. They already scream “soc-ialism” when confronted with a plan that maintains the current for-profit system of private insurers — as if it were the end of the world. What would they do if it WERE a “soc-ialistic” plan?
But avoiding demagogues is not the only reason to exclude a public option — giving the demagogues ammunition is! Look, we know Medicare is not socialized medicine, and is popular, but look at how it was characterized when it was first proposed. And the right-whingers are so adept these days at whining — and the media so easily led by their whining — that nothing actually approaching a government-run system could have even gotten a majority, much less the 60 Senate votes, the real plan did.
The right has managed to make most any sensible public option anathema, so don’t get upset when even progressives shy away from it. Get the new law onto the books, let it sink in a bit, then, when the costs aren’t contained, offer a Medicare-for-all as a sensible way to provide competition to the profit-making companies. And I don’t necessarily mean waiting all that long. Representative Alan Grayson is promoting such a plan now, so it could be on, let’s say, next year’s legislative docket (I doubt it’ll get enough support this year, given what we’ve been through and the large load of other subjects we need to address).
So when you say, “Why didn’t our representatives propose a public option?” think to yourself, “And paint an even bigger target on themselves, too.” This fall will be hard enough, with a capitalistic health insurance reform law to defend. Don’t make them defend an even easier target involving government-run insurance.
Ed
gwangung
I still think it’s way easier to do the right thing when you can point to a huge grassroots segment that badly wants it, too. I don’t think the passion is quite there from the favorable part of the population (though they may be the majority) to counteract the ones who violently oppose it (particularly at this stage of the game).
Mike Kay
@Elizabelle: any moment now, Sally Quinn is gonna shriek Al “trashed this place”….
Fergus Wooster
@freelancer:
I agree some form of bailout was necessary to avert Armageddon, but the TARP / TALF (often forgotten) package had all the wrong incentives.
Sweden had it right – you take the insolvent institutions into receivership; you lend to the solvent institutions, secured by good collateral, at penalty rates.
We lent to insolvent institutions, at 0%, secured by crap collateral. As I think Taibbi said, we told the banks to drink themselves sober.
Tom Hilton
@freelancer: I had the same reaction. I was thrilled when he was back with his unit; this, I think, complicates things unnecessarily.
Comrade Kevin
Heh heh heh, the firebaggers are having a coronary, and yes, I do realize that it’s from a user and not a front-pager.
freelancer
@freelancer:
As much as I like MM, those are not the words of a liberal who grudgingly acknowledges that HCR will do more to help 30-40 million uninsured, and lower costs for those who are insured and thus decides to support it. This sounds like a polemic who is plugging his nose simply because he doesn’t want Obama to fail politically, but feels okay kicking him in the balls until he signs it and ignoring his appeal to American decency and pragmatic arguments for passing the bill simply because he’s a gadfly and an all or nothing purist.
I don’t doubt that MM wants to drastically change the country for the better, but how exactly is this emotional appeal against globalization (iPhone?), a burgeoning police state (police scanner), and poverty (domestic violence and other crime) supposed to be reconciled by the Democrats in any singular bill relating to HCR?
These issues are paramount, and I am in lockstep with Moore on the need to address them. But there is no Omnibus legislation that will simultaneously resolve the horrendous social and societal consequences of our current corporatist plutocracy. Moore, in his his dream of a rising middle-class uprising, seems to think otherwise.
Mike Kay
@eemom: She’s the new Norma Desmond
vheidi
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yes.
freelancer
@geg6:
My post at 115 was in reply to you. I didn’t mean to uneccessarily flame you as you and I would probably end up agreeing on too much.
Moore sometimes ends up pandering to the fringe left, or the uninformed in order to slam his thesis over the audiences head. The viewer who has seen any one of the 4-5 Frontline eps about the Financial Crisis, TARP, the additional Bailouts, unemployment, and the Stimulus, will have a much more informed, nuanced, and elaborate understanding of why things are the way they are. And when they see Moore going, “GEORGE. W. BUSH. PERSONALLY FUCKED YOU OUT OF YOUR MONEY AND EVERYONE YOU KNOW WHO LOST THEIR JOB. AND THE EVIL DEMOCRATS LET HIM. RAWR! I PROPOSE A CANDYLAND DEMOCRACY WITHOUT SPECIAL INTERESTS THAT ONLY REPRESENTS PEOPLE! C’MON AMERICA!”
I don’t know about you, but when I see shit like that, I’m like, “Dude, we get it. They are messed up, and I’m on your side. But put the gasoline down and turn it down a notch.”
David in NY
@Comrade Kevin:
Re: Firebaggers having a coronary — that is one hell of a post, all caps included. Producing one of the best comments I’ve seen in a while (if, like me, you’re an aficionado of understatement):
Comment:
“I’m unclear; are you upset at Rep. Kucinich for something?”
Chuck Butcher
This simply will not do, let the DFH punching recommence.
some guy
@Darkmoth:
In their defense, there is a difference.
I mean, isn’t this argument a bit like: “if you support the Army then you should also support Blackwater”?
Or, a more apt comparison: “if you support Medicare then you must also support Medicare Advantage.”
Just because both provide the same product (health care, defense) it doesn’t necessarily follow that progressives must support both producers.
geg6
@freelancer:
No problem. I understand your concerns about Moore, but you are woefully naive if you think the average American has sat through one, let alone the four or five, “Frontline” eps about anything. They are too busy watching “American Idol” to soil their beautiful minds with anything as wonky as “Frontline.” After all, they actually explain things, using three syllable words and terms like “credit default swaps.” Michael Moore’s simplistic, passionate, and progressive populist rhetoric is useful, if not much in the way of nuance and complexity.
freelancer
@geg6:
No kidding. Would that the world were as wonky as we. Woe.
Admiral_Komack
“Meanwhile Boehner keeps spinning his old broken record, ‘The Democrats are ramming, ramming , ramming this bill down the American people’s throat..”
-Somewhere, Rahm is thinking, “You know Boehner wants it.”
Then he laughs.
Batocchio
Kucinich also deserves credit for going on Democracy Now today to explain his decision, and defend it to Ralph Nader.
Da Bomb
@Admiral_Komack:
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!
Chuck Butcher
Let me see if I’ve got this right, until 2002 Kucinich was Pro-life and he changed his mind so that was all about the greater glory of Dennis. This site is pressing for calls to “persuade” Reps to vote for the Senate Bill, after they change to “yea” their position will be … what? Lauded as seeing reason or about their greater glory? So if any of Bart’s Bishopric enabling pals change their minds and vote for it, what does that make them?
It’s a good thing pols pay about a hair breadth’s attention to the blogosphere. You’d think Kucinich pissed in Mike Kay’s Cheetoes, along with a nice sized slice of others here.
Dug
Related to Kucinich and others, Timothy Egan’s column in the NYT today seems right up the old Balloon Juice alley.
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/17/the-purists/?hp
Linda Featheringill
Contacted Dennis’ office and left a message of praise.
some guy
@Dug:
Correct me if I’m wrong, but Obama believes some hippie doomsday cult leader executed by the Romans 2000 years ago is really a mysterious sky god who will take his soul up to clouds when he dies, no? In fact, is there anyone in Congress who doesn’t at least pretend to believe that a book written by dozens of authors over the course of thousands of years is somehow a holy guide to eternal salvation?
I find it amusing that people will mock Kucinich’s UFO belief when, statistically speaking, life on other worlds is far more likely to actually exist than the Abrahamic religions’ concept of an afterlife.
Also, he may not get many of his bills passed, but I’ll still take Kucinich’s voting record over that of most of the Dem caucus, including people like Obama and Hillary:
https://balloon-juice.com/2010/03/18/dennis-steps-up/#comment-1631725
Dug
Some guy, you’ll find no greater atheist/science geek than I, but you’re way off topic here, (and unnecessarily conflating UFO belief with existence of alien life).
And this block quote from Egan seems tailor made for you.
You’ll get the last word I’m sure. I’m off to work.
Chuck Butcher
@Dug:
Which one of you’d like to back this up with an example of a bill in the last 30yrs sunk by the left?
some guy
@Dug:
When you get back from work, you can see how “nothing is ever done, no lives improved, no laws passed” doesn’t actually apply to Kucinich.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes.xpd?year=2010&person=400227
Comrade Kevin
@some guy: Try this page.
The most interesting part:
Of the legislation he has actually introduced, he is 3/97. 93 never even made it to the floor. One presumably did but was not enacted. That’s not much of a track record of getting stuff enacted into law. Co-sponsoring a bill requires zero effort, and doesn’t mean he even ended up voting for them.
some guy
@Comrade Kevin:
I understand that he’s pretty ineffectual when it comes to actually writing bills and then getting bills he personally authored passed. But he votes the way I would prefer on most issues (including, now, HCR), as reflected by his excellent ratings from almost every liberal advocacy group. And, contrary to his image around these parts, he’s not some Ron Paul obstructionist purity troll who just votes “no” on everything. He’s not my ideal legislator, but he certainly doesn’t deserve the torches and pitchforks treatment like Stupak and Lieberman do.