I still don’t understand why there are caps at all:
Republican Senator James Inhofe has stepped up to the plate yet again for big oil, pledging a Republican filibuster against legislation offered by New Jersey’s Robert Menendez that would completely lift the $75 million liability cap currently protecting big oil companies from claims of economic damage from oil spills.
Again, it would seem to me the free market solution is to lift the caps, and if it becomes more pricey to drill oil safely, then companies will just have to pass that cost on to the public, who will, as they did when prices for fuel skyrocketed during the Bush years, adjust their behaviors and purchases accordingly. Additionally, auto companies who have made advances in fuel efficient cars and companies which have already worked to lower their fuel consumption will reap the competitive advantage they deserve. And should deepwater drilling become prohibitively expensive, oil companies will re-examine fields they before thought were too expensive, but now are, by comparison, cost-effective.
Why do Republicans hate the free market?
Although if reading the comments to the last post on this topic are any indication, many of you seem to think that a few blockbuster speeches from Obama as well as freezing the assets of BP will immediately close the current spill.
burnspbesq
Republicans have always hated any market they can’t rig so that their friends always win. Adam Smith is a Democrat.
The Moar You Know
Many of the comments on that last thread were so flat-out retarded that I suspect that many of the Balloon Juice commentariat need to be checked for severe head injuries.
Keep fucking that chicken, GOP. There’s a pony in there somewhere.
MikeJ
Can we stop the well by filling it with republicans?
Keith
It’s a remnant of the Reagan Effect, whereby Ronaldus Maximus, merely by saying “Tear down this wall”, caused Communism to fail across eastern Europe.
inkadu
If oil companies don’t make big money, how are we supposed to keep our colonies in Alaska going? Someone has to write those annual checks to its citizens.
Lev
This reached its nadir when once-Sen. Rick Santorum insisted on securing an earmark for AccuWeather–located in Pennsylvania–because it needed money to compete with another group that provided the same service for free–the National Weather freakin’ Service!
Okay, maybe Medicare Advantage is the ultimate example of this. I don’t know.
This is absolutely true, though. The conservative mind can’t seem to grasp the difference between being pro-market and pro-donor, though perhaps Democrats would be advised to call an anti-liability cap filibuster a bailout of big oil. It would actually sorta be the truth, too.
Ash Can
Republicans are fine with free markets insofar as they and/or their rich buddies benefit. When free markets turn against them, they’re no longer free markets but a liberal conspiracy to bankrupt America.
And yes, the smell of burning hair in that other thread was pretty strong.
Zifnab
We’re not suggesting Obama can fix the spill. However, he sure as hell can fix BP. If an Iranian tanker had spilled a couple hundred million gallons of oil into the Gulf, we’d be nuking Tehran about now. Instead, you’ve got Real American ™ Senators proudly swearing their allegiance to a foreign company. And the Democrats seem unable to move the ball on reforms.
We want blood, John. We want seven different federal investigators crawling up the respective asses of the companies responsible. FBI, IRS, EPA, SEC, CIA, two other guys I’ve forgotten to name – get’m all in there. How many 9/11s do we have to compare this to before the government decides to treat it seriously?
mellowjohn
as the old bob wills song says: “you gotta dance with who brung ya/swing with who swung ya.”
licensed to kill time
Pat Roberts wants Obama to be less serious:
Yeah, a few blockbuster speeches will win over the Republicans, for sure.
edit: this wasn’t about the oil spill, but a talk at the Republican caucus lunch, but still…
MikeJ
@Keith: Are you sure he didn’t say, “Wingardium leviosa?”
Nothin’ to presidenting. Just say the right magic words and presto!
Gregory
@licensed to kill time:
Reinforcing the “angry Negro*” meme?
(*Yes, I know they wouldn’t be thinking “Negro.”)
Midnight Marauder
@Zifnab:
I think they are a little busy trying to clean the fucking Gulf right now to sic the hounds on BP.
inkadu
If there’s a generic product everyone buys, it will be subsidized. Who doesn’t want to pay less? It’s an unfortunate political reality.
numbskull
Good call on Inhofe.
As to the other thread, you’re not asking the right questions*. You know this and we know you’re just doing it for the churn. Gotta keep the clicks comin’. I got no problem with that, but let’s not pretend otherwise.
*Those being: 1.What should the federal government do (Exec and Legislature) to prevent future gushing holes in the ocean? 2. On a political level, what should the various players be doing to harness the understandable outrage of the voters? Note that this can do an awful lot of good if part of the answer is to (gasp!) make speeches that get people fired up about what it takes to solve long-term problems.
Susan Kitchens
I guess we need to take this total common sense approach and turn it into a “have you called your senators and congresspeople yet?” thread and get on a roll about it. Tim’s posts re: contacting your congresspeople during health care reform were a good, productive way to expend energy.
inkadu
@Zifnab: You forgot to mention indicting the gov’t agencies allowing the drilling, including some high-up Bushies. If the public wants heads, they can be provided.
But I’m sure as former bush senior officials are intervied by Justice, the public fervor for payback will become suddenly muted.
Nick
The caps were there so companies wouldn’t gouge consumers to pay for liability. It was a stupid idea cause they’re just gonna do it anyway
Zifnab
@Midnight Marauder:
So, the US Government is actually really big. And, in fact, the DoJ probably isn’t heavily involved in unloading dispersant and stringing out oil booms.
We’re engaging in two foreign wars, organizing a case against Goldman Sachs, diplomatically wrangling with China over North Korea, and engaging in countless minor domestic issues all at the same time.
Congress may move at a stately glacial pace, and the court system might grind to a crawl, but the executive branch is fairly nimble when it needs to be.
jrg
Obama must hate America then (or at least see it as imperfect enough to pal around with terrorists).
Once again proves that his constituents in Oklahoma are some of the dumbest motherfuckers on the planet. The saddest part about all this is that a month from now, GOPers will be accusing Obama of going easy on BP, and the hicks will swallow it: hook, line and sinker.
gwangung
Retribution is a dish best served cold…
…with a few warm appetizers.
Allison W.
Fix bp? Fix bp?
We don’t know what to do so fixing bp is the next best thing?
no, no, no.
Zifnab
@inkadu: I doubt that. There’s still a sizable portion of the public that would be happy to see Loyal Bushies snagged for criminal activity.
Still, the Mineral Management Services department has already been floating in hot water since the whole coke and hookers scandal broke four years ago. Obama has already proposed the agency be broken up and reorganized. There’s not much more that can happen on that front.
NobodySpecial
@Zifnab:
Please quit trying to punish our corporate overlords. What are you, some kind of lefty?
chopper
lol. i’m dealing with these sort of nimrods at dkos. yeah, let’s stand firm in the face of adversity and show our true american can-do spirit and get this well capped!
1) stand proud and demand action!
2) ????
3) fixed!
Gus
Okay, I give up. Barack Obama cannot fail. He can only be failed.
BR
@Nick:
This is a feature not a bug.
1. Lift the liability cap.
2. Oil companies buy insurance based on estimated risk, pass on costs.
3. Price of oil per barrel goes up (probably only slightly, since most oil production is still onshore).
4. Oil use is disincentivized.
chopper
@The Moar You Know:
perfect.
Nick
@Zifnab:
It’s funny, because I remember liberals telling me I should be calm and “let things play out” when I said this about Al-Qaeda on September 12, 2001.
Nick
@Gus: He can fail, he just hasn’t.
demkat620
Cause it would make the baby Jesus cry, right?
Isn’t that the answer?
Quiddity
How did the cap get there in the first place?
Nick
@Zifnab:
What criminal activity? If they can be tied to allowing BP to skirt rules that led to this, yeah.
But not torture, Americans love their torturers. See Bauer, Jack.
Midnight Marauder
@Zifnab:
But I find it kind of fascinating that all the rage and anger goes back to the executive branch. People seem more upset that President Obama “hasn’t done anything” than they do over the fact that Congress (particularly the Senate) can’t move a single piece of legislation through to address the unfolding crisis. That just seems silly to me. You have people running around talking about how the Obama Administration is protecting “BP’s interests,” even though BP has already paid out more than $27 million in damages so far. They’re also spearheading efforts like this:
But I get it. People want someone to suffer and they want someone to suffer right now. And that’s fine.
I’m just a little more concerned with the actual clean-up efforts and how the people of the Gulf go about rebuilding their life. There will be a time and a place to go for the throat of BP; it’s just not gonna happen right now.
RSR
They’re only free market when it involves cutting spending on things they don’t like–like teachers.
Real free market would not subsidize big oil, big corn, etc…
The Moar You Know
@licensed to kill time: New meme: Emotionally Unstable Negro.
Obama should not be meeting with Republicans, but if he does, it damn well should not be behind closed doors. Another lesson in dealing with Republicans that he will absolutely fail to learn.
res ipsa loquitur
Don’t really understand why, BHO has not:
1. Stopped issuing new drilling permits, AND
2. Rescinded any oustanding drilling permits held by BP
res ipsa loquitur
Don’t really understand why, BHO has not:
1. Stopped issuing new drilling permits, AND
2. Rescinded any oustanding drilling permits held by BP
demkat620
They’re going to run the “He’s crazy” campaign.
jl
@Midnight Marauder: But there are very few EPA and SEC lawyers manning those booms. The SEC dudes need to put down their pornos and get up BP’s ass, IMHO. The EPA lawyers are probably spending their time better, but they need to start getting up BP’s ass too.
The WH needs to watch how BP is handling the claims for individuals closely too. I heard a radio report that the individual claims process is a completely BP run operation. After BP’s behavior so far, that is not good.
New flash for Obomatrons who have confused special pleading for BP with support of Obama, and dismiss all constructive criticism: the GOP is already trying to hang everything that goes wrong around Obama’s neck, and the public will hold whoever is in power responsible for the mess. Period. That is what happened with Katrina, and that is what will happen here.
I’ll find the priceless Jindal quote in a moment.
It does not make any difference whether Obama being held responsible regardless of what he did is fair or reasonable, politically it will happen. So the administration needs to not only do all that can be done, it needs to make sure people are very very aware that it is doing all that can be done.
IMO, the WH gets a C minus on that right now. I admit that is just my opinion.
cyntax
Nothing the adminstration can do will close the current spill. Either the various groups working on it (from what I’ve read on The Oil Drum, it’s not just BP) can figure it out or not. This is a direct result of GWB’s policies that didn’t require a contingency plan to be in place prior to drilling the site.
But what the Adminstration can do, and should do, is direct the people’s frustration in a constructive direction. That’s what we elect good leaders to do–lead. And it would be prudent with the midterms coming up for the Dems to show that they can act on something like this.
If the GOP isn’t going to play ball (and we know they won’t ever, so let’s get ahead of it for once), then hold them accountable. Shine a light on their intransigence by arguing why there shouldn’t be caps. Talk about how much money these guys have made. This is the one industry that can even come close the amount of money Wall St. has made in the last year. If the GOP wants to tie themselves to these guys, make them pay for it.
slag
Yes, but that was during the Bush years, and Bush was a Real American so it was all good. If that happens during the Obama years then Black Jimmy Carter will have nothing to do after January 2012 but skulk around his post-presidenting home ironing his cardigan sweaters. Don’t you know anything?
lawguy
Attack straw men much?
cleek
beat that strawman! beat it good!
Nick
@jl:
and of course we should cower in fear at the idea that the GOP will hang everything that goes wrong around Obama’s neck, rather than, you know, FIGHT that meme.
jl
Sorry for the FDL link (I think some of them have lost it recently), but heard it on radio news earlier today and this is first thing I could find. Mr. Volcano watching is a waste of taxpayer money Jindal has a change of heart. I guess he did not anticipate this kind of eruption in his backyard:
Bobby Jindal: “Our Way of Life Depends” on Federal Government
“BP is the responsible party, but we need the federal government to make sure they are held accountable and that they are indeed responsible. Our way of life depends on it,” Jindal said.
http://firedoglake.com/2010/05/25/bobby-jindal-%e2%80%9cour-way-of-life-depends%e2%80%9d-on-federal-government/
Citizen Alan
@Nick:
Not this liberal. I was fine with going into Afghanistan after Al-Qaeda except for my nagging conviction that Fuckwit George would screw it up. Which, of course, he did.
I wonder what your reaction (and the reaction of the rest of the country) had been if Bush had been nearly as solicitous with Afghanistan’s sovereign rights as you seem to be towards the rights of BP. They did just assault the country as forcefully (if not as violently) as bin Laden did.
scav
maybe in repub world, you have to let oil trickle out so you can protect trickle down.
oh, and Sen Pat R? Sweetheart, we know you think governing is a complete joke and you’re really there in the Senate for the congeniality and giggles. It shows.
Incertus (Brian)
There are times when I actually buy into the argument that it’s not time and resource-effective to actually make a fuckhead Senator stand on the floor of the Senate and talk until he pees himself, but not this time. The country hates BP right now, and with good reason, and if the Democrats can hang BP around the Republicans’ necks, they might wind up not losing so many seats this time around.
Midnight Marauder
@jl:
And I would counter by saying that a lot of people are doing their damnedest to make sure they are completely unaware that the Obama Administration is doing all that can be done.
I think that’s the biggest point of difference here. People keep offering all these suggestions and ideas for what the Obama Administration should be doing. A great deal of them are things the administration has been doing for weeks. “THEY NEED TO BRING IN THE BEST SCIENTISTS AND ENGINEERS IN THE WORLD!” Awesome, they were on that shit a fortnight ago.
How are you supposed to take someone’s criticism seriously if they haven’t even taken the appropriate steps to inform themselves about what they’re outraged over?
Nick
@Citizen Alan:
Would you morons please stop misrepresenting what I say?, God you people are good at that.
Jules
@res ipsa loquitur:
From what I understand the new drilling permits are just permits being issued for drilling already being done, each small change has to have a new permit issued.
kay
@Nick:
I actually think he should get it hung around his neck.
He’ll get undeserved credit when things go well, and he’ll get undeserved blame when they go poorly. I think it’s the nature of that job.
I used to hate when Bush would whine about being “blamed” while taking massive credit for anything good that happened, anywhere, including election results in foreign countries.
I agree when Obama blames Bush, when he’s doing it to highlight policy differences. I think that’s absolutely fair game, and smart politically.
But irrational “blame the President when things go wrong” is just part of the job, and he’ll have to figure out how to navigate that, without Bush peevishness and smallness, please.
Citizen Alan
@Midnight Marauder:
There will never be a time and a place to go for the throat of BP. Never. Anyone who thinks this will happen today, tomorrow or in the summer of 2040 is simply deluding themselves about the state of our sham democracy.
jl
@Nick: I think whether we can effectively fight the GOP meme that the BP oil spill is Obama’s Katrina depends on whether we have the facts on our side, and the public knows that the facts are on our side.
I would like the facts to be on our side when we need to fight that meme with regard to the BP oil spill.
I am not criticizing Obama for not doing something that might be rash and disruptive, and stupid, like seizing the drill capping operation from BP.
However, even the Coast Guard is saying that BP equipment that should have been deployed to contain the spill was just sitting on the docks. And I heard a news report that no one is monitoring or even watching BP process individual claims. That is not good.
Groupthink is dangerous, and I believe some hear, in their uncritical support of Obama have put themselves in a position of special pleading for BP, which is amazing. That is Inhofe’s job, and he will do it better than anyone here.
The Moar You Know
@res ipsa loquitur: Agreed. Cutting down the pool of available oil in an election year is a wise choice.
Southern Beale
Umm, people … there are caps in the nuclear power industry, too. Have been since 1954. It’s called the Price Anderson Act and it was first initiated as an “incentive” and it’s been renewed every time. I mean, where’s Solar’s fucking incentive?
Think about it: as bad as the oil spill is, imagine if this were nuclear radiation??
Bill Arnold
Zifnab:
An acquittance who comes from a family that does advanced revenge once advised me in an inebriated moment that one should wait two years for revenge.
Be a little patient. The gusher still isn’t stopped.
Sheila
@Keith:
Good analogy, Keith.
someguy
@Nick:
They were wrong then because Al Qaida are just terrorists, but BP is fucking sheer evil, at least if you use the total harm they cause as your measure.
Zifnab
@Midnight Marauder:
We’re upset with the Congress when it stales. But the Congress is composed of Republicans and conservative Democrats and moderate/liberal Democrats who’ve taken entirely too much money from oil giants (looks hard at Ben Nelson and Mary Landereau). They don’t get a pass, but they also don’t get the limelight.
Every time Obama uses the “bully pulpit” and nothing gets done, he looks weak and powerless. Every time the CEOs trundle up to Congress to say “We’re not sorry” or BP writes “Fuck off” emails to the EPA, the government looks weak and powerless.
The Bush Administration was at least all bluster. Throwing up a “Dead or Alive” bounty on Osama Bin Laden was absolutely retarded. But it sent a clear message on where Bush stood. With the mercenary death squads.
We want a clear message from Obama. We want some fucking populism. We want him getting up in the bully pulpit, verbally tearing apart the opposition, and daring the Republicans to get in his way. We want partisanship and rancor and a political party willing to kick the opposition in the nuts.
The BP oil spill needs to be charged up into Pro-Oil Spill and Anti-Oil Spill. And the President needs to put the Republicans in their place.
Sheila
@Keith:
Good analogy, Keith. @gwangung:
Retribution is a dish best not served at all, as it is toxic and continues to spread poison down through the ages.
Nick
@jl:
so then why the hell are we NOT repeating the facts. I’m sure you’ve also heard the news reporters about how the government is being too tough on BP and trying to pass off their failures on them? Do you agree with that? If not, wanna join me in fighting the meme or do you want to stay here and shake in your boots?
Silver Owl
Given BP’s track record of being lazy, irresponsible, refusal to even want to know the scope of the problem and propensity to lie on a regular basis, I find it highly improbable that they have the capability to clean up the gulf nor figure out how to stop the spill.
We’re not talking about a stellar nor even adequate resume here.
Midnight Marauder
@Citizen Alan:
I guess we should jump in the vault and take a look at some of the solutions you proposed:
Go for the throat of BP by burning down every BP gas station in Louisiana.
Yep, you are just full of winners.
tofubo
if there is no limit on earnings, there should be no limit on liability
or, to put it as a question in a way that even republicans can understand:
if there is a limit on liability, there should be a limit on earnings, and you wouldn’t want a limit on income, now would you ??
stacie
As a sidenote Cole, you could use the title of this post twelve times a week and it would never stop being true.
Lit3Bolt
What is Obama supposed to do? Who knows?! But I know what YOU can do. You can carry water for Obama, and that is the most productive thing you can do right now, because if you dare question him or his leadership skills or how he responds to a single issue, you get shouted down and lumped together with the “morans.” Because God Forbid we encourage our gov’t to y’know, do an even better job. Nope, it’s all binary…with Obama or against.
Nick
@Zifnab:
There’s that fucking bully pulpit nonsense. I love that I hear people complain he’s all words and pretty words can’t solve problems, only to find out all they’re looking for is words.
He did this…two weeks ago…he stopped because the media stopped paying attention to him/accused him of just being a partisan hack scoring political points.
Mike in NC
Doesn’t Time or one of the other weekly magazines periodically do a “Ten Worst Senators” piece? Inhofe and Coburn of OK definitely belong on the list, along with Demint, Nelson, etc. Maybe it should be a “Fifty Worst Senators” list.
Jay in Oregon
@inkadu:
That’s not how the Alaska Permanent Fund works.
http://www.apfc.org/home/Content/aboutFund/aboutPermFund.cfm
It’s one of the few really progressive things that has come out of Alaska — the notion that its citizens should share in the bounty that the gold/oil/mineral companies are reaping from the state. You can tell, because the state legislature has been trying to crack that particular lockbox open for at least 15 years.
scav
@Lit3Bolt: or, you can just not go apeshit because you’re not hearing the block-buster speeches you think you’ve a right to hear from all those summer feel-good movies. Apparently not going apeshit is now carrying water. a plague on both your houses. the country is ungovernable.
Midnight Marauder
@Zifnab:
And what, specifically again, do you want him to say when he gets up to the Bully Pulpit? You just want him to rip on Republicans and talk about how much the Bush Administration set us up for this disaster, I’m guessing. That would seem to be the implication from your comment. The natural response, of course, is what any of that populism would do to quell the anger coming from the Gulf. Sure, he’s ripping the opposition to shreds, while delivering what message about the Gulf? “The Republicans are terrible, terrible people. We all know they are idiots and losers. What’s that? No, the leak has not been fixed yet. But I still hate Republicans! Let’s talk about that some more!”
Remember, you just wrote this in a previous paragraph:
So what is he taking to the Bully Pulpit and saying? Honestly, what is he going to say that would equal “something?”
Honest Question: WHY NOT?! They have just as much a role and importance in all of this as the executive branch.
That’s not an excuse; that’s an outright failure.
Nick
@Lit3Bolt: Right now, the President is under fire for anything he does. First he’s too hard on BP, then he’s too soft, then he’s too hard again. First he’s too easy on Wall St, then when he’s tough, he’s a partisan hack for not allowing Republicans to water down the bill more.
Your President needs to be defended. Criticize him if you want, but for Chrissakes, defend him against the nonsense.
James F. Elliott
No, silly, we think that he will suck up all the oil with his Super-Swallowing and then melt the wellhead with his Laser Vision.
Keep up, dude.
Martin
@Mike in NC: Balloon-Juice’s 100 Worst Senators List!
Zifnab
@Bill Arnold: It’s been ten fucking years since Bush took office. Every day has been an insult or an injury. We’ve got a Secret Kenyan Muslim in office and the former Vice President’s favorite company is sitting drunkenly in the crosshairs.
Now is the time. This is the place. The enemy’s pants are down and the testicles are danglingly openly, in plain sight. If you can’t kick these guys in the balls now, you never will.
Midnight Marauder
@Lit3Bolt:
I mean, did you even fucking read your own comment?
joe from Lowell
For exactly the reason Inhofe says: because imposing damage caps leads to more oil drilling. This was a policy that was created in order to get more wells drilled and more oil flowing. It was public policy. It was an energy policy designed to bring more oil to market, and to promote employment and trade, by having more people drilling more oil.
I disagree with this policy, to put it mildly, but it is not just whoring for corporate interests. It was a logical policy, given the goals as they were defined and the costs as they were understood.
I think we need a new energy policy, because this one stinks. It’s outdated.
The thing to remember about oil guys like the Bushes, Dick Cheney, and James Inhofe is that they’re not just corrupt. The also believe in this oil-based paradigm, just as pretty much everyone did until about 40 years ago, and think it serves our interests for our energy policy to include damage caps. The public bears a cost in terms of the implied backstop, they reason, but it serves the public good by making more energy available cheaper.
What I’m saying is, this is an ideological battle. I love this ad from the Natural Resources Defense Council.
trollhattan
@Citizen Alan:
I was with Dub right up to ToraBora. When he/we didn’t close out the deal right then and there, I began suspecting something else was up. I won’t pretend I predicted it would be Iraq, but there ya go.
demkat620
I’d really like to see Obama(on an accidently hot mike) tell this BP CEO prick that “Profit is not a word you will be familiar with anytime soon.”
trollhattan
Anytime I start feeling empathy towards BP, I gaze at this for a minute and it passes.
http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/globalbp/globalbp_uk_english/homepage/STAGING/local_assets/bp_homepage/html/rov_stream.html
They should be crushed beneath large stones.
Zifnab
@Midnight Marauder:
“My DoJ has informed me that we are pressing full charges against the CEOs of all three companies on charges of blah blah blah. The DEA is stepping in to seize control of the illegally dumped dispersants. They’re using the SWAT teams, tear gas, and helicopters traditionally reserved for some guy caught with half an ounce of pot. The IRS is freezing all of TransOcean’s accounts and the SEC is currently investigating the potentially illegal $1 billion payout to TransOcean stock holders. BP’s business license in the US has been brought up for review and may be revoked. And, just for shits and giggles, I’m signing an executive order to have the next 10,000 barrels of oil dumped on Rush Limbaugh’s front lawn.”
That’s what I want him to say. Then I want him to follow through with it.
The only thing these assholes respect is money. So take it from them.
AhabTRuler
Give it time. It’ll happen.
Citizen Alan
@Midnight Marauder:
As any halfway literate person would be able to tell, that was not proposed as an actual viable solution but was a statement of what I might consider in my outrage if I were one of the hundreds of thousands of Gulf Coast residents who had just seen their entire livelihoods utterly destroyed so that Tony Hayward could get a fat bonus. Luckily for myself, I am located some several hundred miles from the Gulf Coast, and so my reaction is one of horror and disgust rather than grief and despair.
In any case, the BP stations will be safe, and Tony Hayward can walk around the beaches of Louisiana completely unmolested by angry mobs and bellowing at truculent reporters as if shielded by the divine right of kings. I suppose I should be impressed that he’s at least walking on his own two legs and hasn’t yet suborned some of the local peasants to carry him around on a palanquin as he surveys the destruction he’s wrought.
I notice you didn’t actually address my actual point in your pithy response, which was that BP will never, ever pay any price for this disaster remotely commensurate with its actual cost. The corporation’s lapdogs in Washington are already seeing to that. Anything more would be “un-American.”
jl
@Nick: I assure you that I will tell the wingnut branch of my family, and everyone else who wants to listen, that Obama was on top of the oil spill in a timely way, and that it did everything it could to make sure BP got the spill stopped as soon as possible. And that part of it was NOT Obama’s Katrina. Because from what I read, that is what happened.
If the WH was on top of BP’s containment efforts, and BP screwed up or double crossed people in order to save a buck, and that is why BP equipment was sitting on the docks when oil came ashore, where oil was expected to come onshore, then I will tell the wingnuts in my family that WH did all it could, given the information available at the time.
But if that is not what happened, then I won’t say that.
After Exxon Valdez, and BP corporate statements that I think show evidence that they do not take the damage they cause seriously, and that they are laying the groundwork for shirking their liability due to the spill, I cannot defend BP being in complete control of the individual claims process. If the reports I heard about the claim process are true, then I cannot in good conscience defend that, so I will not.
So, if you are wondering what I am going to say and do with the information I have right now, there you are.
Mr Furious
@The Moar You Know:
BULLSHIT.
The Gulf as it is supplies, what? Seven percent of our oil? Halting the addition of any new drilling is a tiny fraction of the thousands of rigs already in operation. And oil is a commodity priced on a global market.
Any new drilling permits account for a drop in the barrel at best.
It’s smart policy and smart politics to freeze the permits.
Space Mutineer
@cyntax: THIS. A thousand times THIS.
Steve
The reason for the cap, and for the $10 billion cleanup fund that is paid for via taxes on the oil companies, is so the smaller companies aren’t priced out of the market altogether by the prohibitive cost of insurance. I’m not sure things would be better for anyone if the Gulf were the exclusive province of BP and the other transnationals – well, better for anyone except BP, that is.
Bear in mind that THERE IS NO CAP for the actual removal costs. BP has to pay for the cleanup of the oil and the restoration of the wildlife and all that, even if it costs a trillion bucks. BJ commentors are pretty sophisticated folks, but I don’t think most people fully appreciate this point. They hear $75 million cap and think, somehow, that’s all BP is going to have to pay.
If this accident were the responsibility of a small oil company, then I could see an argument that gee, maybe these little companies don’t have the expertise to handle a major spill and it’s ok if we price them out of the market. But given what we’ve seen from BP, I don’t see why anyone would want to do these guys a favor by hamstringing the competition.
joe from Lowell
Three things that strike me about Gulf Coast cleanup
It’s going to be very labor intensive,
It’s going to require a lot of sea-borne activity,
It’s going to require a lot of local knowledge.
BP, or whatever takes over this disaster using BP’s money, should have to hire the Gulf fishing fleet for years.
Tonal Crow
@MikeJ: No. They’re far too oily — and toxic.
les
@jl:
This is one CG officer; it was his decision, not BP’s; he apologized and admitted he made a bad decision.
BP’s already been slapped around for getting claim waivers, and the waivers will be no good. Sorry, there’s no way to have a gov’t agent sit with every resident around the Gulf to keep them from a stupid decision on a claim. That would be socialism, preventing individuals from achieving their individual entitlements.
djork
@AhabTRuler:
Sadly, this.
Linda Featheringill
Good evening, everybody.
Getting a little grumpy are we?
The crankiness is widespread today. Folks in Louisiana are just about ready to bring out the torches and pitchforks. And the entire west side of Florida is in a complete dither. Alabama and Mississippi aren’t happy, either.
It looks to me like we as a nation are struggling with the notion that we are going to have a few hundred million gallons of oil dumped into the Gulf of Mexico. The Gulf could become one huge dead zone. The ecological effects could be horrible. And the effect on our economy could be almost as bad.
And nobody in the world knows how to stop it.
That is the reality of the situation. The awful reality.
Frightening, isn’t it?
I think that perhaps we cannot stop this disaster from happening. But we can decide how we want to react to the resulting devastation. We still have control over our own words and our own actions.
Mr Furious
@joe from Lowell: Yup. And they should be getting paid a shitload of money too.
And Another Thing...
@Jay in Oregon: Inkadu may also be referring to the tax on oil that Palin got passed. It was in addition to the Alaska Permanent fund, Palin’s oil tax in 2008 amounted to about $1,500 per person IIRC. I think Montana and Alberta also have severance taxes on extraction industries, probably passed in the 70’s.
slag
@Zifnab:
It’s funny, but there’s a lot of truth in this sentiment. The reality is that liberals have been getting kicked for so long, our appetite for vengeance is probably nearly insatiable at this point. Add to that frustration fresh evidence of the righteousness of our cause, and no Secret Kenyan Muslim President–no matter how magic–can do enough to make us happy.
Even if he dressed up in his Secret Kenyan Muslim garb, rode a camel into New Orleans, and said, “See! Liberals were right all along!” in his native language of Kenyarabian, we still wouldn’t be happy.
Although, it might be worth a try.
Midnight Marauder
@Citizen Alan:
I (and others) have addressed your point several times. They have already paid out more than $27 million in damages and no claims have been denied thus far. Moreover, considering that the actual leak has NOT EVEN BEEN FIXED YET, I don’t think this is the time to get concerned with bloodlust for corporate death sentences.
If it’s two years from now, the leak has been fixed, and BP has managed to shirk all of its costs and responsibilities, then by all means, find me on the Interweb and rub that shit in my face all day, son.
But right now, when they are still primarily focused on stopping the obscene torrent of oil from continuing to devastate the Gulf, I will continue to assert that calls for the scalps of BP executives are premature and misguided at this point in time.
Tonal Crow
But you mean “Drill baby, drill!” backfired? No one could have imagined….
How ’bout we try to turn this mess into an argument for a carbon tax (rhetorically: a tax on Big Oil)?
Zifnab
@Steve:
You’re never going to be able to restore the damage to the coastal wildlife. It’s just not going to happen. The real damage here isn’t in the cleanup nearly so much as the economic damages to the region. Destroy all the Gulf Coast beach front property. Kill off the Louisiana shrimping industry. Render the waters a dead zone, incapable of supporting any sort of life for decades – maybe centuries to come. Then come back and cut me a check for $75 million.
BP isn’t going to have to pay for any of this. They don’t cover the lost jobs. They don’t cover the sea food drought. They don’t cover the long term damages. Their job begins and ends with the oil in the water. Once that is all tidied up, we’re right back to business as usual.
joe from Lowell
Rescinded permits on yet-to-be-built rigs will most certainly NOT reduce the pool of available oil available in this election year.
So, basically, you’re using the term “cutting down the pool of available oil” to mean the legal/administrative actions taken to stop new wells from being drilled.
And you’re saying that, as a political matter, doing these things would play badly with the electorate in 2010.
I respectfully disagree. Instead, I think the Democrats could gain seats in the next election if Eric Holder started waterboarding BP officials during half time of the NBA playoffs.
kay
@Zifnab:
This is handy to have. It’s in the Oil act, under the CWA section.
§1018(a) The Clean Water Act does not preempt State Law. States may impose additional liability (including unlimited liability), funding mechanisms, requirements for removal actions, and fines and penalties for responsible parties.
AhabTRuler
Oil leak is venting an increased volume right now.
AhabTRuler
Major eruption of oil, cloud has made it to the ROV camera. Major event. Hopefully just another temporary increase. There was at least one earlier today.
ETA: A change in current is clearing the site somewhat, but the leak still appears to be venting a larger amount. I can’t see any gas, but I haven’t really been able to since they adopted this camera angle.
Martin
@Steve: There are no smaller companies. You need hundreds of millions just to get into the game these days. The Deepwater Horizon cost $560M to build, and that was just the drilling platform, not the production platform which would cost another half a billion dollars.
The reason we’re only drilling in deep water is that we’ve exhausted all the easy stuff. The only thing left is the hard shit – which is why we have this mess and why only the big multinationals are still in the game.
slag
@AhabTRuler: I don’t know how you get that thing to work. It could be my crappy DSL, but all I saw was frozen image, nothing, nothing, nothing, frozen image, nothing, nothing…
trollhattan
@AhabTRuler:
I was watching that too. WTF?
AhabTRuler
It also makes for good practice for Arctic and Antarctic exploration
Right Wing Extreme
“[P]ass that cost on to the public, who will, as they did when prices for fuel skyrocketed during the Bush years, adjust their behaviors and purchases accordingly.”
John,
Personally I see no problem with making BP pay 100%. In fact I endorse that position. My issue is with you assertion that I quoted above. In this graph, you can see that miles fell slightly when the price of gas rose, but only slightly. A far bigger decline in driven miles is seen from ’08-’09, but that is clearly due to the falter in the overall economy based on the price of gas drastically declining. Raising prices will not decrease miles to any great degree. I am unsure why people, you included, persist in believing that just raising prices will drop the miles that people drive when the facts are clearly against that assertion.
Mnemosyne
Not that it will make any difference to the It’s All Obama’s Fault crew, but those investigators from the DOJ you’ve been demanding? They’ve been in the Gulf for three weeks:
Is it too much to ask that people check on these things before demanding action that’s already been taken?
MBunge
I haven’t read through the whole thread, but the reason why you have damage caps in this situation is because otherwise no one would ever do this sort of drilling. The cost is so great, the risk is so huge and there are so many other things to do with money that nobody would do it. Which might be the best possible option, of course.
Mike
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@licensed to kill time:
The linked article included this:
Frank. Candid. Testy.
Those are sort of coded words that, coming out of a summit meeting back in the Cold War, used to mean: start digging a bomb shelter in your backyard (if you don’t have one already), because SAC is loading B-52’s with live nukes as we speak. Stay tuned for further details. This is not a test of the emergency broadcast system…
Mr Furious
Oh my god. I was just watching the CNN live feed. It was a billowing flow much bigger than I’d seen in prior videos—looked like a smokestack.
Suddenly, that steady cloud started growing, filling more and more of the screen, coming towards the camera… it’s now completely engulfed the camera.
Did it just get much, much worse?
kay
@Zifnab:
I know this isn’t exactly what you were asking for, but they are there:
AhabTRuler
@slag: Which stream are you accessing? I am monitoring the House feed and BP’s simultaneously (identical, although BP seems to be streaming a higher resolution version than the .gov website, figures).
The Nelson Senate website isn’t even trying anymore.
The ROV has been engulfed in oil, although it there appears to be clear water above it.
LT
It’s like “tort reform,” which is exactly about caps like this. It’s in fact a perfect description of why tort reform is a sick joke.
Midnight Marauder
@Mnemosyne:
As we have learned repeatedly today…yes.
Yes, it is.
Mr Furious
I should note, I haven’t spent any time watching these videos before, and that could be a shift in the water or something that happens on and off, but it was fucking scary.
I feel like I was watching the eroding pipe blow.
Steve
@Martin:
This 2009 report from the MMS shows plenty of smaller operators involved in deepwater drilling. Yes, the transnationals have the largest market share, as one would expect, but I think you’re overstating things. BP didn’t pay to build the Deepwater Horizon anyway, they just lease it, much like construction equipment is leased.
slag
@Right Wing Extreme:
Do you read the words? Or just look at the pretty pictures?
Linda Featheringill
@AhabTRuler:
You are right. Unfortunately.
AhabTRuler
@Mr Furious: There have been periodic surges previously. Usually takes about 15 minutes to settle down again, although that can depend on current and whether any of the ROV’s propulsion systems churn anything more up.
SixStringSlingr
@Zifnab: If you want blood then go to the bathroom like any non-self-respecting 13 year-old girl and cut yourself.
James K. Polk, Esq.
St. Ronnie made a mistake, probably due to deminished mental capacity.
The quote should read “Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this well.”
Again, all Ronald Regan’s fault.
Kristin
Please. No one thinks a few speeches will stop the spilling oil, but I’m not a fucking deep-water engineer so all I can really comment on and concern myself with is not letting shit like this post is about happen in the aftermath.
A few speeches might make a god-forsaken difference in these bastards GETTING AWAY WITH IT. Sorry, but that kinda matters to me.
And seriously, you can’t stop snarking long enough to appreciate how Obama and Dems in general could make a productive policy difference by showing up now and then? Like maybe if he got the country riled up enough about this current horror, just for one example, maybe we’d collectively get off our apathetic asses and care about the destruction of a huge swath of our coastline, or feel something could be done to work the laws in the people’s favor, and maybe this at least won’t happen again.
trollhattan
@Mr Furious:
I was waching the BP feed, which showed a steady, tight and very black stream. The stream started changing to brown than at about 18:00 all hell broke loose. I’ve seen them re-aim the ROV camera a couple of times so I don’t know if the view is the same as it was previously, but it’s cloudy from edge to edge.
kay
@Mnemosyne:
You beat me to it. I had seen that, too.
Part of the problem might be the media inexplicably ignored this story for weeks, so they could cover Rand Paul.
Also, as you may know, because I rant about it frequently, I think the Obama communications team suck.
They’re defensive and testy as a knee-jerk response. They don’t differentiate between a question about his birth certificate and a question about whether there are prosecutors on the scene. They send out the political team when they should be sending out the people who actually do the work. Personally, I blame Gibbs, because he’s close to Obama and he seems to set the tone of the whole media approach, unfortunately. I’d get rid of him.
slag
@AhabTRuler: I was watching BP’s. But that one gives me nothing. Both Firefox and Safari. Must be my crappy connection. Always the connection…
jl
@les:
“This is one CG officer; it was his decision, not BP’s; he apologized and admitted he made a bad decision.”
You must be talking about a different interview than the one I heard. The CG officer in the interview I heard said that BP equipment was sitting on a dock where oil did, and was expected to, come onshore, that BP was not doing the job properly and their efforts would be overseen more closely in the future.
AhabTRuler
Oil cloud is clearing somewhat. Oil still escaping from riser, still seems to be an increased volume. Gas activity remains unknown. Could be very bad, could be the well farting.
trollhattan
@Right Wing Extreme:
Some driving is elastic and some, inelastic. As prices climb it’s the elastic miles that get reduced. However, it’s also known that when fuel hits certain price thresholds, people’s vehicle choices change. Going from an Explorer to an Accord will instantly double their mileage, whether they change their miles or not, and that makes a notable difference in fuel consumed.
AhabTRuler
@slag: I am using Safari to view the feeds; FF wouldn’t swallow the plugin for WMP.
ETA: …aaaand we lose the feed. It’s back from a different angle.
jl
@kay: Thanks, it is nice to know the WH sent some lawyers down to see what was up immediately.
Linda Featheringill
@AhabTRuler: They just moved the camera.
Right Wing Extreme
@slag:
The picture wasn’t that pretty. But seriously, read what I wrote, “you can see that miles fell slightly when the price of gas rose”. Yes miles declined, slightly. they also declined drastically as the price of gas fell, also drastically. Next time maybe you want to look at the pretty picture, rather than just the one piece that you think justifies your belief. If you look at the entire pretty pretty picture, it shows that overall, the belief that raising prices decreases miles is mostly unfounded, and the effect is minimal at best. By the by, there is no reason to go on the attack. I am not a troll here to start trouble, and would appreciate being treated with a certain level of decency. I merely disagreed with one of JC’s assertions, in a respectful manner I might add. I was neither rude or disrespectful to the author, nor to you, and would appreciate the same as long as I am behaving.
Midnight Marauder
@Kristin:
Another person who needs the President of the United States to empower them to get involved.
If we have reached the point as a country where witnessing perhaps the greatest ecological disaster in the United States’ history cannot motivate and arouse passion in the citizenry of this country, then we really are fucked.
Linda Featheringill
And this angle isn’t telling us anything.
Mnemosyne
@Kristin:
Or, you know, sending federal investigators down to Louisiana to see if they can file criminal charges. Which they did three weeks ago.
This was driving me crazy in the other thread, too: a lot of the action that people are demanding is already in progress but people aren’t reading deep enough into stories to pick up on details like that.
trollhattan
@AhabTRuler:
I, for one, wish to salute our new robot overlords as they fiddle with this problem. (Although I suppose deepwater drilling wouldn’t be happening without them at all.) The whole thing has a very James Cameron vibe.
Zifnab
@kay: See, now that’s what I’m talking about. Moar plz.
@SixStringSlingr: You’re going to have to translate from teabagger to English.
slag
@Right Wing Extreme:
Fair enough. But I still don’t see how your statement and Cole’s statement contradict. Gas prices go up, driving adjusts. Gas prices stay up, vehicular purchases adjust. As trollhatten suggests, this isn’t exactly new information, so I’m confused as to why you’re trying to select “just the one piece that you think justifies your belief”.
kay
@jl:
Anytime. I don’t actually know much about this, just so you’re not thinking I do. I read a little last night. I looked at the oil law a coupla days ago, because I knew that was going to be the framework.
Frankly, I’d be amazed if prosecutors weren’t there, both state and federal. Louisiana has a lot of state law in play (every state has their own version of a “CWA”) in addition to federal law, and it looks like, reading the federal law, that state claims are not preempted by the federal law. This is going to be playing out for years.
I think this is a fundamentally different situation than Katrina. It’s too bad we always fall back on that sort of shorthand, because it verges on a lie, it’s so facile and non-specific.
But, I think Obama should get his ass down there. One of his duties is to take some of the fear and uncertainty burden off of powerless people and onto him. That’s just part of his job. In that sense, he is like a parent, or that’s how I think of that duty.
Jody
Why the fuck were they drilling down there when they had no real way of shutting off the valve in an emergency?
Not that it matters at this point. We’re fucked. All the finger pointing is just to help distract us from the fact that we just killed the fucking Gulf of Mexico. No amount of retribution is going to change the fact that we just rendered an entire region unlivable.
We’re fucked. And nobody’s gonna do a goddam thing about it.
Keith G
@joe from Lowell:
Just lock them into one of those crazy cash boxes (every NBA team has one somewhere). Just switch out currency notes for bumble bees.
AhabTRuler
@trollhattan: Strange that Cameron’s “under-the-sea” film was about a deepwater oil rig.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Zifnab:
What about something like this:
[tap, tap]
Is this thing on?
soundcheck? OK, here goes..
My fellow Americans, I’m pleased to tell you today that I’ve signed legislation that will outlaw BP forever. We begin bombing in five minutes.
slag
@kay:
Do you really think that’s possible, though? Transferring that fear and uncertainty? I have my doubts.
Martin
@AhabTRuler: It does that constantly. It’s believed that the hydrates accumulate in the kinks and bends in the pipe, clog it up, and then when enough pressure builds pushes it through. There’s some speculation that the pipe is getting steadily degraded by this effort and at some point the leaks may open up more.
It’s also part of the reason there’s no single estimate on the leak rate – it varies a lot depending on when you are taking a measurement.
Kristin
@Midnight Marauder:
Agreed!
But we are really fucked, that’s basically my point. It’s not ideal that we’re a country of apathetic assholes, but pretending it’s not the case doesn’t help either. So let’s deal with the situation as it is. The population has become unbearably complacent. (Due in part, certainly, to the total absence of moral and reasonable leadership the past couple decades on anything that matters.) So what the fuck, we need to be riled up–OBVIOUSLY. Is it too much to ask that the president jump into the mix a little bit?
Citizen Alan
@Midnight Marauder:
I just saved a screenshot of your post just so I can quote you accurately when BP’s evasion of liability becomes a major campaign issue in 2012.
Right Wing Extreme
@trollhattan:
I would agree that it is the elastic driving miles that get cut, be it in a recession, high gas prices or both, but only to a point. It is hard to tell , but it appears that the decline is miles due to price were around 4-5%. There has got to be more elastic miles than that. The big decline is due to people not driving to work (gotta have a job for that), some carpooling, but mostly due to goods not moving thereby cutting the miles that trucks are/were putting on the road. The other problem is that right now, many people can not afford to change their car choice. Example: My wife drives an ’04 Carolla S at around 38 mpg. I drive a ’93 Grand Regal at around 32 mpg when new, but probably closer to 28 now. Due to the recession my wife took a 40-53% pay cut (she is commissioned), and my company gave no raises of any sort. We are barely holding on, so a change in vehicle is not in the cards. Many are in the same, or similar, situations. People are keeping their cars longer. That has been true for the last 15 years or so. There is a small blip from cash for clunkers, but then a dip due to people changing the timing of their new car choices. You are right that changing cars would increase mpg without affecting miles driven, but you would see consumption of fuel fall, and we just are not seeing that.
Martin
@Keith G:
Upgraded.
Right Wing Extreme
@trollhattan:
I would agree that it is the elastic driving miles that get cut, be it in a recession, high gas prices or both, but only to a point. It is hard to tell , but it appears that the decline is miles due to price were around 4-5%. There has got to be more elastic miles than that. The big decline is due to people not driving to work (gotta have a job for that), some carpooling, but mostly due to goods not moving thereby cutting the miles that trucks are/were putting on the road. The other problem is that right now, many people can not afford to change their car choice. Example: My wife drives an ’04 Carolla S at around 38 mpg. I drive a ’93 Grand Regal at around 32 mpg when new, but probably closer to 28 now. Due to the recession my wife took a 40-53% pay cut (she is commissioned), and my company gave no raises of any sort. We are barely holding on, so a change in vehicle is not in the cards. Many are in the same, or similar, situations. People are keeping their cars longer. That has been true for the last 15 years or so. There is a small blip from cash for clunkers, but then a dip due to people changing the timing of their new car choices. You are right that changing cars would increase mpg without affecting miles driven, but you would see consumption of fuel fall, and we just are not seeing that.
kay
@slag:
I do, but I’m sort of autocratic and authoritarian, in that role, so maybe I’m kidding myself, and people would have calmed down anyway, without my intervention.
It just occurs to me that if people are insisting they want you to come and offer them some comfort, and they seem to be saying that here (in so many words) telling them to fuck off and grow up might be considered ungenerous.
Seriously. What’s the big deal? Go down there and tell them someone’s in charge, even if it’s cold comfort, or not completely true. See what happens. They’re scared, and fear is really corrosive.
Midnight Marauder
@Citizen Alan:
I am very happy for you.
Kristin
@Mnemosyne:
People aren’t reading deep enough into the stories? Come on. I spend virtually all day online reading news and blogs and I barely know what you’re talking about. Don’t think the average person would know that, or that it would get them sufficiently invested in this story. And anyway, it doesn’t address the point. The political tide needs to turn here – on this and in general with all the ways we’re always getting fucked – and the buried bit of info on a few investigators on the scene does not mean jack shit. There are/were plenty of investigators working on a myriad of awful things done in our name the past 10 years, but if the political will isn’t there, if the population isn’t demanding it, there just doesn’t seem to ever be any follow through. So, yay, whatever, there are some people down there on the case. Can you honestly say you think even if they find egregious violations of the law, in the current climate, that anything will be pursued?
Right Wing Extreme
@slag: The reason I pulled just that piece was I did not disagree with most of the rest. BP, and the other responsible parties, should pony up for every penny of the damage. Trollhatten is right that better mpg does not change mileage but does/might increase efficiency, when people can afford to change their vehicle, but many people can not do that right now. My point was that price does not affect usage all that much, and is therefore a poor solution to reducing said usage.
slag
@kay:
Ha! Some truth here. But you need an air of sincerity and seriousness about you in the process. It’s probably hard to go down there and say, “Yeah! This really sucks! And we’re not doing a whole lot to stop it from happening again tomorrow.” Sure, a commission or whatever has some value (possibly), but it lacks the purity of a moratorium and the absolutism of a “You’re with us or against us” type of statement. And since Obama doesn’t do purity or absolutism well, I suspect his sincerity and seriousness will continue to be in question no matter what he does.
Jrod, Slayer of Phoenix
@Right Wing Extreme:
You must be new to BJ. Around here, unless you explicitly state your undying love and worship of the great and perfect Obama, you are an evil troll sent by your masters Greenwald and Hamsher. If you dare to say anything that might be construed as remotely critical of the great and perfect Obama, you can expect an instant pile-on. That just how it is.
Until one of the front pagers criticizes Obama. In that case, it’s simply the level-headed and reasonable thing to do.
Zifnab
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: I’ll drink to that.
Little less Carter. Little more Reagen.
Jay B.
Thankfully, we’re still talking about drilling, the importance of oil, the need for caps, liabilities, giving BP and their dear CEO a chance, the need for more drilling (HELL-O Arctic Tundra! Open up, bitch!), the complete shock that such a thing could happen (oh, sure, it was inevitable, but hopefully, we won’t act rash when it unexpectedly happens because who could have predicted?), the ‘reality’ that we’ll have to continue to drill — because what are the options — and the utter helplessness of the “world’s richest country” AND the “world’s most powerful man”. It’s the vision on display that makes me proud to be a Democrat.
Would anyone decide that THIS might be the right time to do the right thing and finally challenge our dependence to oil? Nah. Why? We’ll obviously need it forever and there’s no other answer or solution, so let’s have this stupid fucking argument forever. Sure, we’ve killed New Orleans, Mobile, Florida (and for that matter, Iraq) – but let’s not get hasty! It’s only our Chernobyl, but let’s continue to play by the rigged rules that the oil companies made into law in cahoots with their slaves on Capitol Hill.
Because we wouldn’t want to sound too populist or insult the feelings of the corporation whose “modest” contribution to the world’s pollution problem is practically nothing. We wouldn’t want to change the conversation. Why the fuck would we? Our President is still a helpless figurehead and our Democratic Congress is still prepping for losses this fall.
No. It’s good. Let’s worry about what we can or can’t do to BP, because, after all, they are the only players who really matter here.
kay
@slag:
Right. Or warmth. I was a big backer, but the one personality “charge” that stuck during the campaign was that he is cold. And he is. I think there was truth in that charge, and that’s why it stuck. It’s an okay trade-off to me, he’s got other good qualities, but he is a little chilly. He’s not my best friend, but warmth would be useful here.
I don’t think they really want him to tell them he’s going to fix it (they know) they just want him to share some of that grief and fear. We don’t go visit people in the hospital because we have a new and innovative cure. We just go.
Imagine if everyone was like “I can’t FIX your cancer, so stop looking at me!”
Oh, okay. Thanks for that.
Zifnab
@Jrod, Slayer of Phoenix:
Of course, if you lavish praise too heavily (read: at all), you’re a Obamabot riding the Magic Unity Pony to the doom of our nation.
slag
@Right Wing Extreme:
I’m not sure anyone here suggested raising the price of gasoline was going to be a panacea for all our energy woes. But I think a lot of us see it as a good start. Or at least seeing the price of a gallon of gas reflect the cost of a gallon of gas would help alleviate some of these problems (including some behaviors and purchases). But the truth is that people need more options, including more walkable and bikable cities. And better public transportation. And more alternative energy options. But people respond to those notions by decrying “Soci alism!” and “Government Subsidies!” totally disregarding all the ways in which their current highway-centric lifestyles are dependent on “Soci alism!” and “Government Subsidies!”. Maybe if they started seeing the true costs of some of their choices, they would make different ones.
slag
@kay:
Also true. But what if the cancer patient had some expectation that you could fix their cancer? Or that you should at least be trying? It does complicate matters a bit.
But then again, that’s why these guys get paid the big bucks. To figure that stuff out. Which hasn’t exactly happened, it seems.
Lex
@Midnight Marauder: What are they counting as a “response vessel”? Because a 600-ship Navy was a pipe dream even during the Reagan years, and we’re nowhere close to that now.
burnspbesq
@jl:
” The SEC dudes need to put down their pornos and get up BP’s ass, IMHO.”
For exactly what, pray tell? BP may well have violated a lot of federal statutes, but it’s not intuitively obvious that the securities laws are on the list.
Try putting “aim” before “fire.”
Elie
@Zifnab:
Zif — while I am also angry, I think that the fact that this is still an ongoing disaster – we do not have a situation where the actual disaster event is over yet. This event does not compare with our recent catastrophes in that way. Katrina, 911, floods, earthquakes in Haiti, etc…took place at the longest over a few days and then there was a long aftermath and cleanup.
THIS is different. We want the emotional release of aftermath anger, but we are still in the event…
It is brutally stupid and unproductive to distract ANYONE who has ANY role in possibly fixing this thing — plugging the hole a mile deep, with bulshit like arrests, assaults, lawsuits or anything that distracts from the effort and focus to fix this thing as soon as possible.
All the scheming and threatening about how to extract revenge MUST wait… all the planning and next steps and I told you so’s will have a long long time to evolve in the horror of this aftermath to come
So please everyone — how can we help support the team that is trying to fix this? What helps this — helps …
please get it…
tim
John, as demonstrated by the last sentence of your post to this thread in which you misinterpret and misrepresent comments as you see fit to smoothly serve the bullshit narrative you’re pushing on this Gulf spill fiasco, it is my sad duty to point out that you are a douchebag.
Of course, I DO need to remind myself of the great credibility with which you, as a veteran enabler of much epic Bush bullshit, speak…which is precisely very little.
Threre’s something about your cranky old closet case tone and schtick that keeps me coming back for more though, so good on ya.
Lex
@Jay B.:
Reminds me, sadly, of an old joke:
Guy’s caught in his house by a flood. He climbs out onto the roof. Boat comes by, person offers help. “Don’t worry,” our guy says, “God’s gonna protect me.” Helicopter arrives overheard, our guy waves it off: “Don’t worry, God’s gonna protect me.” Well, the water rises higher and he drowns.
So he gets to Heaven and meets God. “Why didn’t you protect me?” he demands.
God does a facepalm. “Dude. I sent a boat. I sent a helicopter …”
Lit3Bolt
@Nick:
I get that, I understand that. I made a comment admitting as much in the last thread, and I’m glad people are having dialogue.
But god damn, “What is he supposed to do?” is not a constructive comeback. If we’re talking about memes and pushback and whatnot, that’s the absolute worst one anybody could come up with. Tell me how each of these sound:
“Terrorists have flown planes into the World Trade Center!”
“WHAT IS THE PRESIDENT SUPPOSED TO DO?!”
“A hurricane has wiped out New Orleans! Thousands dead!”
“WHAT IS THE PRESIDENT SUPPOSED TO DO?!”
“Millions of Americans have no healthcare!”
“WHAT, I ASK, IS THE PRESIDENT SUPPOSED TO DO!?”
If politics is perception, should the President just sit back, stay aloof, and hope no political fallout comes his way over his reaction to events? For God’s sake, everyone chortled over Bush’s glazed-eyed reaction in the kindergarten to 9/11. Is it so wrong, that in times of crisis, the citizens of the USA look to their president for answers? I know it’s not rational, and that it’s “Daddy politics” or whatever the fuck made up name people have given it. But “WHAT IS HE SUPPOSED TO DO?” a cop-out, the ultimate abdication of responsibility. The responsibility is zeroing in on Obama whether he wants it or not, he might as well look fucking good while doing it.
Mnemosyne
@Kristin:
But Obama going to Louisiana and making a fiery speech would totally fix that?
Yes, I know it’s fun to be cynical, but at least stick to the facts. People have been screaming, “Where are the investigations?!?” and ignoring the fact that the investigations began a week after the explosion.
Mnemosyne
@tim:
Hey, tim, did you notice that the investigations you were screaming about us needing to start actually started three (3) weeks ago?
I’m sure you’ll just pretend you never said anything about starting immediate investigations and move on to another talking point. Until, of course, it turns out that that one has already happened, too.
Mnemosyne
@kay:
I don’t think you’re wrong but, frankly, that Midwestern reserve makes me comfortable with him. We’re not real big on displays of emotion and warmth in Illinois, especially in the Chicagoland area.
Yutsano
@Mnemosyne: Minor point of order: Obama is Hawai’ian by birth. He spent most of his formative years on the islands. Inasmuch as it is a US state, it is also a pluralistic culture that focuses on cooperation among the residents. Otherwise the various ethnicities who live there would be at each others’ throats constantly. It doesn’t undercut your point, as I’m certain many sensible Midwesterners would be more than comfortable in Hawai’i. You just have to look past race and appearance in order to really enjoy the place.
Mr Furious
Everyone still castigates Bush for failing to capitalize on the aftermath of 9/11 and push the country away from a dependence on fossil fuels.
Obama has what is arguably an even better case to make after this.
Will he? And will the fucking Congress let him? And will the public hold any of them accountable?
Mnemosyne
@Yutsano:
G and I are both from the Chicago area (but met out here, funny story) and when we went to Kauai last winter, he LOVED it. (I’d been to Hawaii before when I was in high school, so I already knew I loved it.) Strange as it sounds to say about a tropical island with a majority-minority population, it really was similar in feel to a lot of the Midwest. Friendly, but maintaining a certain amount of distance.
So I think you’re right, there may be a certain overlap in temperament between the areas that makes me comfortable with Obama’s reserve.
Yutsano
@Mnemosyne: I was born in Hawai’i. I’ve made the comment here before several times (and in other places) but my CoLB looks exactly like Obama’s. I wasn’t born in the same hospital (I was born on base, I haz had evil sociaIist health care until I went to college) but I share a birth city with the President. I enjoy that fact a lot.
Dan
It’s like every day is Christmas morning for Democrats!
1) Arizona declares war on all brown people, driving them to the Dems.
2) Then Rand Paul re-opens the debate on whether separate drinking fountains should be legal.
3) Now Dems get to run campaign ads featuring the GOP fighting to defend a foreign company who destroyed the Gulf Coast!
Maybe Republicans really don’t want to take control in November!
Yay!
Right Wing Extreme
@Jrod, Slayer of Phoenix:
Jrod,
I have little love for the left as a system. Some of the people, especially the true believers, can grate on my every last nerve, but by and large, they are decent folk, just misguided. Yeah I know I opened myself up for the dog pile with that one. Most of the left thinks the same about those on the right. Truth be told, fanatics of any stripe, be it religious, political or name it make me uncomfortable. I asked for civility, and by giving it, I got it, though sometimes you have to remind people. Through my life I have noticed this about people, most just want to make it through the work day, go home to the family, friends and pets, have an adult beverage, and wake up the next day no worse off than they were the day before. All I asked of Slag was to treat me with the same level of respect I treated JC with. If you noticed, he gave it. Now I ask you the same. Ad hominem attacks do not raise the level of discourse, and they rarely solve anything. I am not new to BJ, though it has been a while since I commented here, but generally I treat other people’s blogs the same way I would treat the author if he invited me into his home. Which also means you treat the other guests respectfully. Disagreement is good, great in fact, and the conversations are fun and lively. If I wanted to talk with people who think the same, or nearly so, I would (and sometimes do) comment on a right leaning blog. How boring would that be? I also posit that we would still be eating raw meat in caves if we all though alike. That being said, I yanked the civility card on Slag is because I wanted to discuss a topic, not fight and bicker like a child. Though I often disagree with JC, he is a thoughtful writer, and most of his commenters will discuss things reasonably, though there is sometimes a tendency to pile on the dissenter, typically this is not the case unless you come to rabble rouse. In that case it is disingenuous to pick a fight and then complain that you were given one.
Right Wing Extreme
p.s.
The reason I almost never delete a comment on my own site is I want the differing opinions.
Right Wing Extreme
@slag:
You are correct that nobody said raising prices would be the magic bullet, though those (mostly politicians) on the left often suggest just that, including The President. I am curious why you think it would be a good start. Raising prices would price me right out of a job, and I am not alone in that boat. I do not live in a city where pub trans is even an option. I do carpool however, so there is both my self interest and my contribution to a tiny fraction of the problem. On a side note, I only scream socialism for real acts thereof. While all government subsidies are not bad, some are horrendous. I will give you wind power for an example. Here in the NW, for wind to pencil out, the power co. would have to charge just over $12 A kw/h. The only way they can charge the reasonable rate they do, is the subsidies. This would not bother me if at some point in the near- to mid-term, this would not be the case. Having the government inject a little capital to start up a technology is great, IF, at some point that technology will be able to stand on its own. Wind is not a technology that will be likely able to compete w/o the subsidy in my life time. Solar is in the same boat. Nuclear could, but it has a whole host of problems of its own starting with the greenie true believers and ending with what to do with the poisonous sludge. Scrapping the portions of the Non-proliferation treaty that Carter(?) signed with the old Sov Union that say we can not reprocess the waste into new/recycled fuel would alleviate most of that concern, but not all. Please do not get me wrong, we have a problem, and it is growing but scrapping what we have before we can replace it, is not viable. When I bought my house 1.5 years ago, I went through and put a cfl in almost every fixture, replaced the old thermostat with a smart one that only heats/cools, when someone is ther to reap a benefit (good savings that), sealed up all the drafts and cracks I could find. Also, until recently, I paid an extra premium on my power to buy wind until it was that or feed the family. That right there is endemic of the issue. Some of these technologies can not work without someone, usually the government, propping them up. The tech just isn’t there yet, and may never be. Should we use fossil fuels? Hell no, they are to useful a source of other products to be wasted, but it is foolish to discard them without a viable replacement, and we just don’t have it yet. Should the government fund research? Yes, we all should, if it is within our means to do so, but you can not shoot the cow until you have a new source of milk.
Sheila
“If free enterprise becomes a proselytizing holy cause, it will be a sign that its workability and advantages have ceased to be self-evident.”
Eric Hoffer, 1951
Tim I
@Zifnab:
Fuck it!!! Let’s just nuke London. That will show those assholes at BP who is boss.