Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Perhaps you mistook them for somebody who gives a damn.

People really shouldn’t expect the government to help after they watched the GOP drown it in a bathtub.

Republicans in disarray!

The fight for our country is always worth it. ~Kamala Harris

I’d like to think you all would remain faithful to me if i ever tried to have some of you killed.

Polls are now a reliable indicator of what corporate Republicans want us to think.

I might just take the rest of the day off and do even more nothing than usual.

If you cannot answer whether trump lost the 2020 election, you are unfit for office.

This really is a full service blog.

Our job is not to persuade republicans but to defeat them.

Speaking of republicans, is there a way for a political party to declare intellectual bankruptcy?

Nancy smash is sick of your bullshit.

The poor and middle-class pay taxes, the rich pay accountants, the wealthy pay politicians.

It’s the corruption, stupid.

This isn’t Democrats spending madly. This is government catching up.

Republicans do not pay their debts.

An unpunished coup is a training exercise.

He wakes up lying, and he lies all day.

It’s pointless to bring up problems that can only be solved with a time machine.

They think we are photo bombing their nice little lives.

Spilling the end game before they can coat it in frankl luntz-approved dogwhistles.

Republicans don’t want a speaker to lead them; they want a hostage.

The rest of the comments were smacking Boebert like she was a piñata.

When your entire life is steeped in white supremacy, equality feels like discrimination.

You are here: Home / Howard Dean is wrong

Howard Dean is wrong

by | 93 Comments

This post is in: 

See what I mean about the Democrats?

P.S. Ted Olson is right.

P.P.S. I got the video link from Glenn Greenwald and you know what, I didn’t even notice it was Breitbart TV. I would definitely withhold judgment until there’s verification that this is Dean.

Also, the thread winner goes to Gen. Jrod and his Howling Army:

Here’s a possible compromise: instead of making the building a mosque, minarets and all, they could just make it a community center along the lines of the YMCA, and include a praying area for Muslims. That should satisfy all involved.

Awesome.

Reader Interactions

93Comments

  3. 3.

    James Hare

    Was a Deaniac in 2004 (pretty much how I found political blogs) and I gave money and time to his campaign. I’ve been to some DFA events and even went to their training weekend last summer. I liked Dean’s pragmatic policies as Vermont Governor and thought he’d made an excellent voice for the anti-Iraq wing of the party. Obviously the time as party chair did him no good at all. He is absolutely wrong on this.

    In 2001 as a college freshman I wrote a paper about the importance of keeping the “war on terrorism” from becoming a rhetorical war on Islam. It is sad to think that George W. Bush was a more careful steward of religious freedom than many in the Democratic party would be.

    A pox on both their houses at this point.

  5. 5.

    Keith

    As a matter of fact I don’t see what you mean.
    Firewall at corporate prevents youtube viewing.

    Any chance of a transcript or summary?

  6. 6.

    Midnight Marauder

    “This is something we should be able to work out with people of good faith.” — Howard Dean, certified moron.

    Newsflash, Howard: The entire opposition is premised on bad faith.

  8. 8.

    Zifnab

    @Strandedvandal: Yeah. I’m sorry, but this is hugely immediately suspect.

    That said, if that really is Howard Dean, he’s way off base. This wishy-washy NIMBY attitude doesn’t help at all. Compromise my ass.

  12. 12.

    Midnight Marauder

    Whoa, BrietbartTV?!

    I will now be forced to give Howard Dean the benefit of the doubt.

    EDIT: And how in the world do you post ANYTHING this day and age affiliated with Andrew Brietbart and NOT include that salient fact in the post?! Unreal.

  14. 14.

    Dr. beltane

    So far, the only two politicians who have impressed me on this issue are Barack Obama and Michael Bloomberg.

    Howard Dean was an excellent governor, but one of his nicknames here used to be “good little Republican”. He has also been removed from the real world for several years now. Being a professional pundit makes even the best of them stupid.

  17. 17.

    James Hare

    Pretty much his entire remarks are included and that’s pretty obviously Howard’s voice. He even says “idear” right.

  20. 20.

    Cris

    @James Hare: Was a Deaniac in 2004 (pretty much how I found political blogs) and I gave money and time to his campaign.

    Me too; Dean was pretty much who got me to break out of the “pox on both houses” trap and admit that I was a Democrat, rather than an Independent.

    But even then, my biggest quibble with him as a candidate was his public handling of the topic of religion. He attempted to present himself as a middle-of-the-road, devout Christian, and he came off sounding insincere and unfamiliar with the Bible.

    He’s at his best when he’s uncompromising. When he tries to be accommodating, he’s as exciting a public figure as John Kerry.

  21. 21.

    taterstick

    Well ,it is from Breitbart. So, some time next week we will find out it was actually a conversation between Kermit the Frog and Fozzie Bear.

    If it does turn out to actually be Howard Dean, then he can go fuck himself.

  22. 22.

    taterstick

    Holy fucking shit. I agree with Grover Norquist and disagree (strongly) with Howard Dean in the same day?

    I need a drink.

  23. 23.

    Bob

    Ted Olson is right. Maybe it is because he is one of the few conservatives to have actually read and understands the constitution.

    Assuming it is real…Dean, you fool. I have a photo with you that I was considering displaying. Not now.

  24. 24.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    If it’s got breitbart associated with it, I’m waiting for 3 other sources first.

  26. 26.

    Gen. Jrod and his Howling Army

    Here’s a possible compromise: instead of making the building a mosque, minarets and all, they could just make it a community center along the lines of the YMCA, and include a praying area for Muslims. That should satisfy all involved.

  27. 27.

    JGabriel

    Queston: why do so many things need to be re – fudiated? It just seems like the initial fudiation process never sticks, which is a shame because it’s quite painful. Can we fix it?

    .

  28. 28.

    asiangrrlMN

    Sorry. I am with those who are awaiting verification. Once I saw it was from Breitbart, it was immediately suspect.

    @James Hare: It actually isn’t obvious to me. It doesn’t sound like Dean, but I’m not saying it isn’t him, either.

    If it is Dean, though, then I’m gonna be fucking mad.

    @Gen. Jrod and his Howling Army: Um, that is what is being built. I suspect you are being snarky, though. Am I right? Glad to know my snark-meter is not broken, but this is actually a good proposal.

  29. 29.

    Zifnab

    @James Hare:

    It is sad to think that George W. Bush was a more careful steward of religious freedom than many in the Democratic party would be.

    The Republican Party goes into frothing lunacy and it’s the Democrats’ fault? Yeah, no thank you. Last I checked, Nancy Pelosi was not Pam Geller’s keeper.

    The Democrats are doing what they always do – collapse in a whimpering puddle. They did it then under Bush and they’re doing it now under Gingrich / Beck / Palin. But claiming the Democrats are in any way responsible for this madness is really passing the buck fast and far.

    Let’s not forget which side of the country holds all the wide-eyed Jesus-humping freak-tards.

  30. 30.

    tomvox1

    The only defense I have for Howard is: what does a former governor of Vermont know about New York City? I.e. simple ignorance. Which is not a great defense, I’ll admit…

    For the millionth time, no compromise needs to be made by Park51 since the proper city approvals have been granted. Everything else is just a lot of meaningless rending of garments by the Right & Left. Everyone who is not from NYC (including those dickheads in Albany) should just STFU…except the Prez because it’s important that he use this shameful episode to remind people about little things like freedom of religion and such.

    And good for Ted Olson, too.

    Oh, and shame on Liz “Have You No Shame” Cheney, as usual, for using grief-stricken people to score cheap political points in a town she really wouldn’t piss on if it were on fire (again):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIlCiX0LIqA

  32. 32.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    @Cris: Can you imagine being Obama right now? My forehead would be red from slapping it so many times.

  33. 33.

    MattR

    @asiangrrlMN:

    If it is Dean, though, then I’m gonna be fucking mad.

    More specifically, if it is Dean and it is unedited and shown in the proper context.

  34. 34.

    DougJ

    Dean is an annoying blowhard. Remember when he was saying Obama should have rammed health care through the way Bush would have?

  37. 37.

    asiangrrlMN

    @MattR: Yes. Wot you said. Though, given the full scope of the words, it would be pretty hard to imagine a context in which–oh hell no, it wouldn’t. Never mind. You are right. Unedited and full context.

    @DougJ: I forgot about that! Yeah. He was a bit of a dick during the whole debate.

  38. 38.

    JGabriel

    Crooked Timber, Crooked Timber has the GOPs compromise offer on the Communtiy Center That’s Blocks Away From The World Trade Center controversy:

    “We’re being cast as opponents of religious freedom,” said blogger Pamela Geller, “and that’s not fair. We’re just saying that this is a highly sensitive matter and a very important place for us. We’re all about freedom. And to prove it, we propose that the location of the Ground Zero mosque should be dedicated, instead, to a Museum of Danish Mohammed Cartoons.

    More from Palin, Gingrich, and Douthat at the link.

    .

  39. 39.

    Cris

    @tomvox1: what does a former governor of Vermont know about New York City?

    Well, half the student body of UVM is from Nassau county.

    Okay, I made that up.

  40. 40.

    Menzies

    @DougJ:

    I think Dean’s problem is easily reducible to never having been a federal legislator. The blowhards in both parties seem to be the ones who assume governors are perfect for the Presidency because they’ve got “executive experience,” when the differences between state and federal executive branches seem to inhere more and more on the differences between state and federal legislatures.

  41. 41.

    dmsilev

    One of TPM’s reporters earned some hazard pay by interviewing Pam Geller.
    One small segment of the trainwreck:

    Geller argues the building where the Cordoba House is sacred because it was hit by landing gear on Sept. 11, 2001, and doesn’t buy arguments about some of the more seedy buildings in the area desecrating the memory of those killed nine years ago.
    __
    “Strip clubs didn’t bring down the towers. It’s faulty logic,” Geller told TPM.

    The landing gear is sacred, or imparts sanctity upon the site where it impacted? One gets the feeling that conservatives in years to come will embark on quests to seek out holy relics of 9/11, to be enshrined and prayed to. I foresee a thriving market in “genuine” WTC ceiling panels, carpet fragments, and sections of ventilation ductwork.

    dms

  42. 42.

    The Moar You Know

    Breitbart?

    No fucking way. The National Enquirer I’d believe. Not “Mr. Poorly Edited” Breitbart.

    All that deserves is this chestnut from our last president, which is truly applicable to anything released by Breitbart:

    There’s an old saying in Tennessee — I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — [pauses] — shame on you. Fool me — [pauses] — You can’t get fooled again.

    Give me proof. Anything from Andrew Breitbart does not meet that standard.

  43. 43.

    Scrooge McDuck

    @tomvox1:

    The only defense I have for Howard is: what does a former governor of Vermont know about New York City? I.e. simple ignorance. Which is not a great defense, I’ll admit…

    …or civil rights, for that matter…

  44. 44.

    Davis X. Machina

    @dmsilev:

    “Strip clubs didn’t bring down the towers. It’s faulty logic,” Geller told TPM.

    But if you flew a strip club into one of the towers at 450 knots…..

  45. 45.

    Gen. Jrod and his Howling Army

    @asiangrrlMN: That’s snark alright. I’ll state it more plainly: it’s a massive embarrassment and source of shame for our country that we’re having this debate. There’s no good reason not to build this center, not one. The only people “hurt” by this building are bigots, full stop.

    In three months this “mosque” bullshit will be on the same level as “death panels” are now: fully believed by about 27% of the population, while everyone else pretends it never happened.

  46. 46.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    I’ve always been leery of Dean, even though I couldn’t say why and I tend to agree with him most of the time. That said, this seems really out of character.

  49. 49.

    dmsilev

    @Davis X. Machina:

    But if you flew a strip club into one of the towers at 450 knots…..

    That would depend on whether it’s an African or a European strip club. Unladen, of course.

    dms

  50. 50.

    MattR

    @dmsilev: You have given me a great idea. Once I buy my new house in northern NJ, I am going to turn it into a museum where rubes will come and pay to touch my friends who were in WTC7 or worked in a building hit by pieces of the plane. I bet I can pay off the house in less than two years.

  51. 51.

    Gen. Jrod and his Howling Army

    @dmsilev:

    One gets the feeling that conservatives in years to come will embark on quests to seek out holy relics of 9/11, to be enshrined and prayed to.

    Maybe this is why Republicans oppose federal money going to help treat the first responders to 9/11. Their cystic fibrosis isn’t a disease so much as a holy relic of yore. Why, treating it would be un-American!

  52. 52.

    Hugin & Munin

    DXM: No way a strip club caused that damage…there had to be a bomb on board. Or, I suppose, a great deal of Bacardi 151.

  53. 53.

    D-Chance.

    It’s a sad day, indeed, when Liberals come crawling on their hands and knees begging George W Bush to save them…

  54. 54.

    Anya

    God damn it, did the entire American political establishment drink from a crazy fountain when we were not looking? I mean, why is it so hard to say that “this not democratic v republican issue but a battle between those who believe in the constitution and those who want to undermine the constitution.” How hard is that. I am moving back to Canada. Though at the rate Harper is going, it might very soo turn into a boring version of the stupidity that’s the American political discourse.

  56. 56.

    Svensker

    @MattR:

    Once I buy my new house in northern NJ, I am going to turn it into a museum where rubes will come and pay to touch my friends who were in WTC7 or worked in a building hit by pieces of the plane. I bet I can pay off the house in less than two years.

    Hey, my hub and I inhaled a bunch of dust and smoke from the burning pile for a couple of weeks. We could have people touch US and charge for it. We’re hallowed ground! (No mooslims better build no damn mosque anywhere near me, know what I’m saying?)

  57. 57.

    ohmmade

    Yeah, Kain.

    See, the Democratic party has differing viewpoints on almost every topic.

    The GOP is a disgusting hive-mind.

    Personally, I’d rather have differing views. Otherwise, what’s the point of even having congress?

    And, last I checked, Dean isn’t an elected member of anything.

  60. 60.

    Red

    Would it be fine to build a mosque at ground zero and call it: “911 Martyrs Victory Mosque”? Hypothetically speaking of course. And also if said Mosque was funded by Iran and Saudi Arabia?

    I’m just trying to understand your alls thinking processes.

  61. 61.

    Suffern ACE

    @Midnight Marauder: The best I can hope for from “negotiations” is that the people who are convinced that opposition is only due to the WTC site (those who poll for the center’s right to be there, although they have feelings that the center there is morally wrong) will realize that the leaders of this “opposition” don’t agree with them that Muslims have a right to practice their religion because those leaders believe that it is not possible for Muslims to assemble together peacefully.

    Ciminy. Rauf could agree to move the site to Innwood and agree to have cameras an microphones installed in every room and broadcast a 24/7 Reality TV show from the center so that Pam Geller could ensure that Muslim swimmers aren’t talking about their undying devotion to Iran and how to build a car bomb, and she would take that offer as another sign that Rauf is a lying radical.

    Howard Dean is not running for office. I have been giving passes to Democrats who need to run into the headwinds on this issue for being a little wishy-washy. (They are only human and wishy is part of party platform) There really isn’t much excuse for Dean if he is going to go to the media and not attempt push back against Newt and show some spine.

  62. 62.

    Rick Taylor

    @MattR:
    Yup! I figured that out about a minute after I posted. . . .Why would anyone use Breitbart as source uncritically?

  65. 65.

    MattR

    @Rick Taylor: I pretty much assume that this tape is unedited and complete (for some reason I think Breitbart is too smart to try and pull that same stunt again on something this petty. He wants to build his credibility back up so he can use it for evil again in the future). But having said that, I would never publish a story based on Breitbart as the only source. It should not be that hard to get an independent copy of that radio broadcast (or transcript from the radio station) even if it may take a day or two.

  66. 66.

    Comrade Dread

    But if you flew a strip club into one of the towers at 450 knots…..

    It would be a typical meeting for the Marketing staff.

  67. 67.

    Sloegin

    Pretty basic right and wrong on this issue. Rights and the law is all about the hard things that people don’t like, not the easy stuff that polls well.

    Reid is a scared old man.

    Dean (if the Breitbart source is true) has a mouth that’s a WMD.

    Why is this so difficult? Jeebus.

  70. 70.

    Frank

    @Suffern ACE:

    There really isn’t much excuse for Dean if he is going to go to the media and not attempt push back against Newt and show some spine.

    And talk about stabbing his own party’s President in the back. Shame on him and Harry Reid. And Nancy Pelosi’s statement today wasn’t much better.

    They are such an embarrassment. Yes, the GOP started this. They are beyond evil with their bigotry. With that in mind, it should not be too much to ask for our party’s leaders to speak out. Their refusal to do so speak volumes. It reminds me of their pathetic performance in the run up to the Iraq war.

  71. 71.

    mrmike

    @Red: Would it be fine to build a mosque at ground zero and call it: “911 Martyrs Victory Mosque”? Hypothetically speaking of course. And also if said Mosque was funded by Iran and Saudi Arabia?

    IMNSHO, yes. Assuming they owned or leased the property legally and had all the relevant paperwork in order that would be perfectly legal and Constitutional. It would be tasteless and would probably cause undue public nuisance due to protests etc. which might cause it to lose its zoning or what not eventually (see Times Square), but again that would be a local issue and not relevant to the current discussion at all.

  72. 72.

    LT

    Here’s something I haven’t heard addressed: Ho do opponents propose stopping the project? And how would it not be a curtailment of its organizers right to build it that opponents say they have?

    And hugely disappointing of Howard Dean. It doesn’t “belong” to any religious group – not christians or Jews or Muslims – just Americans. As if there would be any opposition if a church or synagogue was being built. And what doesn’t belong? The entire area? How fucking stupid.

  74. 74.

    Red

    @mrmike, Fair enough. Constitutional argument is airtight.

    What about a white supremacist church building a whites only church dedicated to the guy who shot MLK on the grounds where MLK was murdered? No issues with that either?

    Would you be willing stand up and talk about how it’s tolerant and good to allow a white supremacist church to execute it’s constitutional rights and build said church?

  76. 76.

    ronin122

    @Red: WTF are you talking about? So you’re comparing innocent Muslims who are not affiliated with Al-Qaeda with those like the KKK….stay classy

  78. 78.

    shortstop

    P.P.S. I got the video link from Glenn Greenwald and you know what, I didn’t even notice it was Breitbart TV. I would definitely withhold judgment until there’s verification that this is Dean.

    Or you could definitely withhold blogging until you actually look at what the hell you’re linking to. It would only add an extra five or so seconds and it’s pretty much what all people who give a shit do.

  79. 79.

    Mnemosyne

    @Red:

    What about a white supremacist church building a whites only church dedicated to the guy who shot MLK on the grounds where MLK was murdered? No issues with that either?

    How about the Supreme Court deciding that the American Nazi Party has the legal right march in the city that has the highest number of Holocaust survivors in the US?

    Oh, wait, that actually happened.

    I’m sorry that your imaginary America is so much less tolerant than the actual one we all live in, but I’m sure you’ll keep trying to make it match your ideal.

  80. 80.

    Mnemosyne

    D’oh! Lemme try that again (and pre-apologies for the duplicate).

    @Red:

    What about a white supremacist church building a whites only church dedicated to the guy who shot MLK on the grounds where MLK was murdered? No issues with that either?

    How about the Supreme Court deciding that the American Nazi Party has the legal right march in the city that has the highest number of Holocaust survivors in the US?

    Oh, wait, that actually happened.

    I’m sorry that your imaginary America is so much less tolerant than the actual one we all live in, but I’m sure you’ll keep trying to make it match your intolerant ideal.

  81. 81.

    Dave S.

    @Red: To return briefly to Red’s original collection of words and punctuation, I would be surprised to hear about a mosque funded jointly by Iran (Shiites) and Saudi Arabia (Sunnis). Although it could be one of those “only in New York” kind of things.

  82. 82.

    Mnemosyne

    @Dave S.:

    Actually, it would be pretty amazing if Iran and Saudi Arabia got together to fund something. It would be like the Orangemen and the Real IRA joining hands to found a community center.

  83. 83.

    Innocent Bystander

    Red@74

    Great points! We should have a Constitutional Convention to add these two specific examples for exemption (can you think of any more)? Or we could just scrap the Constitution altogether and make Pam Geller the goto voice of reason for this country. Newt could be deigned our post-Constitutional legal umpire.

    Pending this, I guess we’ll just have to act as mature, rational actors that understand opportunistic race-baiting and political fear-mongering and expose it as the kind of rank anti-Americanism that it really is.

  84. 84.

    Innocent Bystander

    Have to join the chorus that Dean is wrong with his comments. But in my 40 years of following/voting in politics, Dean joins a select group of 100% of those pols that I generally admire in saying something I totally disagree with. He best not make a habit of disagreeing with me.

  85. 85.

    General Stuck

    @Innocent Bystander: Yea, I pretty well agree with this. Dean has never been a “true progressive” but has aligned himself with them. He was a centrist governor, and while he has the tendency to spout off nonsense from time to time, he often does proper mea culpas when called on it. He is really a pragmatist mainstream liberal in my view, with a touch of the motor mouth. I like him in spite of his flaws. And will continue to, unless he makes a habit of being wrong, like you said.

  86. 86.

    parsimon

    Hello, E.D. Kain:

    From the OP:

    See what I mean about the Democrats?

    I haven’t been reading you long enough to know what you mean. I will say that recent discussions here and there of Dean’s statements have resulted in comments from, “This is enough to make me want to pummel all politicians,” to your “See what I mean about the Democrats?”

    I’d like to say to both: Wait a minute. Dean is a (sometime) politician, also a Democrat, also a doctor, also male, and from Vermont. Can we hold off on generalizing from the particular? I’d hate to censure all Vermonters on account of Dean.

    I don’t know if you (E.D. Kain) read or respond to comments here — sorry, haven’t been reading comment threads here long enough to know — but honestly, to all parties: Dean speaks, quite obviously, for himself.

  87. 87.

    mclaren

    Amazing and impressive. How did Breitbart manage to computer-generate such a realistic looking image of Howard Dean? The voice is nearly perfect too.

  89. 89.

    Bob

    I am realizing that despite owning slaves and stuff, those old white dudes sure can write one fine constitution.

  90. 90.

    Red

    @Mnemosyne:
    That’s a great example. And many good liberals showed to protest those marches. Why are such good liberals failing to protest a far right wing 7th century religion that killed 3000 New Yorkers? You all seem more into embracing it.

    Maybe those were good Nazi that marched? So you would be completely against protesting against such a nazi march, correct? I mean you really don’t know if they were good nazi’s or bad nazi’s, right?

    Wait you could tell they were bad… because they marched in a location that was full of people that barely escaped from the Nazi’s greatest crime… Hmm, I wonder why people are so pissed about a Mosque next to ground zero?

  91. 91.

    mrmike

    @Red: That’s a great example. And many good liberals showed to protest those marches. Why are such good liberals failing to protest a far right wing 7th century religion that killed 3000 New Yorkers? You all seem more into embracing it.

    1) Their religion didn’t kill anyone. Some fanatics did. Said fanatics (like most of their stripe) are more political than religious.

    2) In particular the Sufi sect certainly wasn’t involved. You might as well ask why people aren’t picketing Unitarians over the Catholic pedophilia scandals.

    3) You’ll find an awful lot of liberals on the front lines of the actual conflict with actual Muslim extremists. That line just isn’t anywhere near the Burlington Coat Factory.

    P.S. They weren’t all New Yorkers. Or Americans. Or Christians. And you really should be more cognizant of that.

  92. 92.

    AxelFoley

    @Davis X. Machina:

    Oh, dear. Now who are the real Democrats over at DemocraticUnderground.com going to vote for in the 2012 primaries?
    “Grayson” is next in alphabetical order….

    ROFL

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