I don’t want to start a religious flame war, but it really says something weird about the country that in 2010, you can be a viable Senate candidate believing masturbation is evil and that gays just have a personality disorder or even admitting you’ve dabbled in the dark arts, but if you stand up and say “I’m an atheist,” you’ll just get destroyed in the election.
People believe in and do all sorts of crazy shit and get elected to higher office, but the one surefire barrier (save Pete Stark) to elected office is not believing in something. Saying “I don’t believe in the virgin birth” makes you a crazy person. It’s just weird.
rob!
People believe in and do all sorts of crazy shit and get elected to higher office, but the one surefire barrier (save Pete Stark) to elected office is not believing in something.
Well, NOT believing in Evolution seems to be doing the wingnuts just fine.
Kryptik
Don’t forget politcking while Muslim. While atheism is still probably more disqualifying (and considering the godawful spate of anti-Muslim sentiment drummed up in the recent, that’s telling), you still can’t forget 1) Keith Ellison being forced to answer whether or not he wasn’t blatantly working for ‘the enemy’, and 2) The zombie bullshit ‘Obama’s a seekrit muslin!’ rumors. The very fact that he’d be demonized if he truly were Presnitin’ While Muslin is a dangerous thing indeed.
JGabriel
We mock politicians, Bush for instance, who believe they’ve been chosen by God to be President, but the majority of the electorate won’t vote for anyone who doesn’t believe God chose them for the job.
The American electorate is preternaturally inclined to vote for religious schizophrenics.
.
beltane
Lets face it, Americans demand hypocrisy from their elected officials. A truly devout Christian would be someone like Jimmy Carter, who is routinely mocked by the right. What they really want are politicians who parade their fake faith like Carrie Prejean paraded her fake boobs. To openly admit to atheism or agnosticism is too deep, too authentic, for American tastes.
For what it’s worth, all the young evangelicals I know are sexually promiscuous and prone to having children out-of-wedlock with multiple partners. Their “faith” involves no demands other than throwing stones at gays and liberals. It’s as if once you are saved you are free to do whatever you want without fear of divine wrath. No wonder their churches look like Wal-Marts rather than sacred spaces.
Karyn
Very true, and very crazy. Being a Unitarian doesn’t do you any favors either, no matter what your personal beliefs happen to be. The fact that you aren’t willing to tell other people what they should believe just freaks people out. The only thing I’ve ever said that got Mormons to literally scamper away from my doorstep was “I’m a Unitarian.” I’ve never struck such terror into hearts before or since. You’d have thought I was that guy from Indiana Jones with a beating human heart in my hand.
BR
I’d been thinking about exactly this earlier today. That we’re among the nations with the lowest fraction of the population accepting evolution as scientific truth.
That and this interview with Robert Hirsch on how we will be into the decline phase after peak oil in 2-5 years have me pretty down…
beltane
@Karyn: I got rid of the Jehovah’s Witnesses by laughing at them. It wasn’t intentional, but when they implored me to consider the value of the New Testament vs the Old Testament I had a laughing fit which seemed to freak them out. It was two years ago and they haven’t come back.
Jewish Steel
Don’t we also lead the world in incarceration rates per capita and capital punishment?
Hmm…
Kryptik
@JGabriel:
It’s precisely that reason why I find myself totally unconvinced by the hysteria of folks who warn of ‘AMERICAN SHARIA LAW!!!!!!!!!!’ (I think I missed a few key exclamation points there, but no matter). We still find ourselves under the regular sway of manic evangelical assholes who peddle apocalypitca and god-mongering. Too many Christians who, despite calling themselves the most Christ-like, tend to ignore certain things like most of the New Testament, while appealing to the Old Testament and yet demanding that none of the inconvenient stuff apply to them.
People claiming to be Good Christians who in reality are simply bad Jews…ok that’s unfair to real Christians and real Jews. Lets just call these assholes what they really are: Mammonites.
BerkeleyMom
I think for Repubs, it doesn’t matter what their guys/gals are–hooker clients, financial deadbeats, adulterers, bigots, known liars, love-child fathers–just to name a few from this current crop. It is part and parcel of the denial of facts that is at the core of these extremists. amazing how a Repub can claim to have found Jesus and in an instant they are forgiven.
Obama goes to a Christian church for a couple of decades and he’s a secret Muslim. it’s just about hating on Liberals.
Joseph Nobles
The clip of O’Donnell on Politically Incorrect saying that God would spare her from having to lie to Hitler about Jews in the attic is simply unbelievable. I tell you how God would “provide a way” for her not to have to lie about Jews in the attic: she’d never hide any there to begin with, knowing she might have to lie.
kommrade reproductive vigor
Yup. It’s the ultimate get out of hell free card. But needless to say being saved does not extend to forming a relationship with someone of the same gender. Furtive fucking, yes. Relationship, no.
sherifffruitfly
Or where you can be a normal christian and get called the anti-christ when you’re black, but a white person who dabbles in witchcraft is a perfectly fine christian.
Yah, it is odd.
beltane
@Joseph Nobles: What’s even more absurd is that O’Donnell has lied about absolutely everything in her whole ridiculous life. Her educational achievements, her finances, her personal life-all a lie. But when it comes to saving a life, nope can’t tell a lie.
Paris
Remember, motherhood is a political act so virgin birth is totally believable. Especially for grizzly mommas.
beltane
@kommrade reproductive vigor: Because forming a relationship is hones, and honesty is a sin to these people. The Christianity we have in this country is what you get when you play the words of Jesus backwards: a lot of garbled, evil sounding crap.
MarkusR
Even Pete Stark was outed after he was already in.
No one puts their atheism on display during elections. The country just cannot handle it.
scav
@Paris:
Cue the campaign against unwed teenage voting.
Redshift
And then there are the legions who claim to “read the Bible every day” but don’t seem to know anything in it except what their preacher tells them is there. Those ones always remind of of A Fish Called Wanda: “Yes they do, Otto, they just don’t understand it.”
GregB
Have you seen that the Montana GOP’s platform calls for criminalizing homosexuality?
They are all about personal freedoms and getting government out of our lives.
Pence/Palin 2010-Eternity
Kryptik
@Redshift:
They know there’s a Jesus and there’s an Anti-Christ, and dammit, that’s enough for them!
jacy
@beltane:
Whenever my mom wants to get rid of Jehovah’s Witnesses she tells them she’s a witch, then before shutting the door she says, “Don’t make me get my broom,” which I guess is little old lady for “get off my lawn.”
She did invite one woman in for tea once and let her go through her whole spiel, after which she held up their magazine and said something to the effect of, “Can’t you people hire a marketer? You’re never going to get anybody to believe this crap.” For about a year after that the woman would drop by every once in a while and my mom would dutifully invite her in, ask her a question and then demolish whatever she said.
I think the woman thought eventually she was going to win my mom over through sheer force of will, while my mom was secretly trying to convert her to non-belief. In the end, I believe it was a stalemate.
The Dangerman
…and say “I’m an atheist,” you’ll just get destroyed in the election.
Not sure that is true; I think it depends on where one is. In the Bible Belt, it’s probably a deal breaker. Here in California, one’s Belief (or lack thereof) doesn’t seem to be that big of a deal.
Also, I think there are “Atheists” and then there are “Atheists”; in the latter case, some atheists just like to be jerks in their lack of respect for others. Being a jerk is a fine way not to be elected…
eemom
aw c’mon. We NEED a new flame war topic around here.
Not that anybody’s actually tired of Obot vs Firebagger, mind you…….but ya gotta admit, the shit-slinging on those threads HAS gotten a certain been-that-done-there, just-going-through-the-motions kind of listlessness to it.
mrslappy
I eagerly await the day when someone who has been Touched by His Noodly Appendage is elected to a national office.
beltane
@jacy: My friend does the same exact thing. She is an actual Wiccan who invites the JW lady in, makes her tea, and has discussions with her. I don’t have time for this crap. There are only 24 hours in a day and I don’t want to spend a single one of them talking to a bunch of proselytizers.
General Stuck
Every good wingnut Christian loves them a struggle with darkness and the devil leading to baby jeevus and right wing flockage. The wingnut preachers then have the converted by the short hairs for a solid GOP vote that grateful rubes don’t dare go against lest they be cast back to the hellfire pits.
So O’Donnell is cool, she pulled herself away from the libtard serpent in her own soul and split that sucker’s wig with her now righteous sword of Gidget the Impaler, and crusader against do- it- yourself female orgasm. She got her mind right and rides the white horse of martydom and will soon become a fashionable person of interest just for making a buck. Persecuted by pointy headed liberal trial lawyers masquarading as DOJ prosecutors for the Obamunist. IOW”s, common wingnut in good standing.
You lower atheists don’t measure up so long as you fornicate and vote democrat ( who can tell the dif) , and worship all that humanistic mumbo jumbo. Haters of bible code and unfettered profit. Godless nude sun bathers and Hobbit haters, and and…….
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@MarkusR: I remember reading about a governor of California who was an atheist and a social-ist– google tells me his name was Culbert Olson, gov from 1939-43. We have definitely devolved as a country in the last fifty, seventy-five years
The Raven
Didn’t you know? Most believers can’t stand even a hint of doubt. Crazy hominids don’t trust anyone who isn’t crazy themselves, kraw.
JamesC
I dunno, John. If 538’s stats are any indicator, Christine O’Donnell is exactly the opposite of a viable Senate candidate.
Mind you, she’s apparently a viable Republican senate candidate, but that’s hardly one and the same~
Jim, Foolish Literalist
/sigh/
Molly Ivins Booknotes rerun on CSPAN. This “God” character has a lot to answer for. The Universe is fucked up.
Jewish Steel
AC Grayling says recent waves of crazy is more a case of the religious “turning up the volume” under pressure and we are witnessing religion that is “vigorous in it’s demise.”
That’s something I really want to believe. Along with the demographic time bomb that will all but eliminate the Republican party.
Those are my rosaries.
thejoz
It’s really not that strange.
There are plenty of liberals who have a faith, so someone being an atheist is neither here nor there for most of them.
The independents are probably the same way; So that’s two groups of people who are neither here nor there on someone faith or unfaith.
The rabid right on the other hand would foam at the mouth to a point where even the current Teabaggers would look sane if anyone came out with their non-belief as a candidate for office.
And although by percentage the fastest growing faith group in the country is “Unaffiliated”, atheists/agnostics/whatever are still very outnumbered.
It’s the dynamics of this country and it isn’t changing anytime soon. Get over it.
Triassic Sands
More than weird, it is sad. And dangerous. Not just because non-believers can’t hold office, but because of the kind of mind that accepts religious dogma and rejects the possibility that there is no God and the certainty that there is no omnipotent, loving, personal God (you know, the one who makes sure that Biff’s team wins the football game on Saturday and answers prayers).
I have long believed that religion has a place in our public schools — history of religion (preferably taught by an atheist or agnostic). If more people studied the roots of the nonsense they believe, they might have a much harder time believing it. Of course, the recent studies that showed that when people who believe things that aren’t true are directly confronted with the facts, rather than relinquish those beliefs, they end up believing them even more strongly.
When I first heard that, I didn’t understand the mechanism, but recently I heard a researcher explain that in defending their erroneous beliefs the people invest so much energy in constructing arguments to defend those beliefs the result is a deepening of belief in the original ideas. It seems to me that pretty much cripples a person intellectually, and that does shed some light on the profound stupidity that Americans, especially Real Americans, display every day. It also raises serious questions about the ability of this country to fix its problems.
beltane
@JamesC: She’ll get at least 40% of the vote. Think about that and weep.
stuckinred
@Triassic Sands: same as it ever was
Nick
@The Dangerman:
Here in Brooklyn, if you don’t go to 440 Eastern Parkway, you can’t get elected in Borough Park or Midwood, if you don’t kiss the Bishops’ ass, you can get elected in Bensonhurst, Greenpoint or Marine Park, and if you don’t pander to every storefront church on Nostrand Avenue, you can’t get elected in Bed-Stuy or East New York.
Queens, Staten Island and The Bronx are exactly the same way. Manhattan might be the only exception.
Davis X. Machina
@JamesC:
Nate’s right. The woman won a closed Republican primary with 30,000 votes.
Obama took the state 60-40 with a quarter of a million.
And his approval rate in the state today is 57%. Biden’s is higher, I am sure (even if the VP doesn’t do anything.)
It’s a small state, she’s run twice already. They all know her. And there’s a limit on how much media can do in a small state. (Seen it too many times here in Maine)
She’s toast. Coons by 15%
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@JamesC: O’Donnell isn’t noticeably less crazy than James Inhofe, or, on this issue, Mark Pryor, Democrat and Young Earther.
Nick
@JamesC:
Do we really think O’Donnell would have trouble winning an election in, say, Arkansas?
Davis X. Machina
@Nick: Not just Arkansas, but anywhere– except Oklahoma.
Ruckus
@beltane:
I got rid of the Jehovah’s Witnesses by laughing at them.
I get rid of them by telling them to get the fuck away from me as fast as they possibly can. It freaks them out and besides that they leave without saying another word. And as fast as they can.
Mr Stagger Lee
To be fair Pete Stark, is from the Bay Area, if want to impress me, let the atheist congressman be from the South or the Midwest. Call me cynical,but most politicians are like the character in Kirk Douglas’ movie Spartacus when he instructs young Caesar about religion in politics.
parsimon
Leaving aside all the obvious things to say about national identity, tribalism, conservatism, and so on, there’s a widely held belief that without god as authority, there is no foundation for morality.
That’s not true, but it’s a pretty sophisticated line of thought that gets you to recognizing that.
Josie
@jacy: My son used to tell people he was a Wiccan when he was in high school and they kept inviting him to church. There are probably some people still praying for him. I think he now leans toward either Buddhism or Hinduism. The interesting thing is that he is a very ethical, Christian sort of person. The question is: what makes one a Christian–the stuff you spout or the way you live your life?
OGLiberal
Can you imagine the kind of whisper campaigns we’d hear if O’Donnell was single and never married? I mean, that’s generally unacceptable. Might not lose you an election – see Lindsey Graham, Charlie Crist, Ann Richards (once married but divorced before her political career) – but it will be widely assume that you are teh gay.
O, wait…O’Donnell is single and has never been married. But she believes in Christ Our Lord and that gays have a mental problem…so it’s all good. She’s just saving her re-born virgin vagina for the right warlock – er, um – gay-hating Christian he-man.
General Stuck
It’s painful to think about now, but in the 80’s which was the decade from hell for me, I had a little run with the crazy charismatic fundies. I was agnostic at best and was entirely non political, though with basic beliefs aligned more or less with dems. Just was empty and depressed and barely gave a shit about anything, and let a friend of a friend talk me into going to his church.
Growing up with hellfire and damnation southern baptist craziness, I wanted nothing to do with anything like that. I was assured it wasn’t, so I started going. At first it was refreshing, with all the singing and happy vibes in a large building with 3 or 4 hundred people with big smiles, I thought this might be cool.
But then i started listening to what they were saying and it was worse than the baptist. They were in some war in their heads against the godless government and especially the murderous abortionists led by liberal demons and such.
At the time, I was working for the federal government in the environment field, and the church leaders somehow got word of this, and got together to ask me if I would go undercover and maybe do something to stop, or at least help stop the abortion. That was the last straw, as I informed them I had nothing to do with abortion in my job, and that they were crazy thinking I did, or could, and that I even would if I could help stop something I wasn’t against.
They looked like someone had shot their puppy with long faces, and I left, never to return. Have not dabbled in organized religion since, other than a chapel service or two when I was ill at the VA.
Mnemosyne
If you want to know how tribal this stuff really is, my mom is a lifelong atheist who never set foot inside a church and she will still get herself all worked up about the awful War on Christmas, because her tribe (aka old conservatives) watches Fox News and gets worked up about it.
She will defend the Christianists to the death, not because she believes any of their Jesus stuff, but because they’re part of her tribe. In fact, she even says that religion is all bullshit, but it doesn’t matter because for her it’s about culture and tribalism, not religion.
Omnes Omnibus
@Josie: Beliefs.
OGLiberal
@Nick: Or just about any state below the Mason-Dixon line…or certain counties in Pennsylvania…or in much of the Mountain West.
And I wouldn’t writer her off in Delaware yet, although she’s certainly a long shot. The media will do their best to turn O’Donnell into a cute, quirky, strong woman who’s worked her way up from humble beginnings to take on and defeat – the male dominated power structure. I mean, just look at the neat things she writes on Twitter! For example, check out The Page right now. Halperin has five freaking photos of Palin up there. And while I know this is Values Voter Lollapalooza weekend, this isn’t uncommon for him…the man lives for Palin’s next Facebook posting. I think he sees more starbursts than Rich Lowry.
Wait…I’m mistaken. He only has four photos of Palin up there. The fifth is O’Donnell wearing her best Palin costume – red blaze, glasses, similar hair style. This must have been a great week for Halperin…now he gets two Grizzlies to fantasize about as he gives Dean Broder a foot massage.
Josie
@Omnes Omnibus: But what if your espoused beliefs don’t lead you to live a Christian life?
psychobroad
2 JWs, middle-aged ladies, came to my house this summer. As they approached the door they could see me through the windows. I answered the door and politely told them I wasn’t interested. Their response: “Thank you for answering your door, and have a good day.” God knows what they run into out there. ‘Course they’re asking for it, but still…
MTiffany
@beltane: “No wonder their churches look like Wal-Marts rather than sacred spaces. “
Oh, I thought they were just doubling down on the convenience of one-stop shopping.
Brian S (formerly Incertus)
@Davis X. Machina:
Yeah, she’s not quite crazy enough for Oklahoma.
Omnes Omnibus
@Josie: I am not an expert on theology, but I understand that some denominations believe that faith is enough, others want more, and the Calvinists believe that some are predestined to be saved but you can’t know if you are among them and it really doesn’t matter what you do or how you act.
JWL
All religious myths are silly, of course. But for some reason I look particularly askance at anyone who truly believes that an angel named Moroni revealed itself to Joseph Smith (in the 19th century, no less). It might have something to do with the old tune Boney Moroni, or the fact I despised macamorni and cheese when I was a kid, or if you drop the “i” it reads as it does. I mean, it’s almost like Smith wasn’t even trying when he conjured up with the part of the story.
Ruckus
@Josie:
I’ve looked for it but could not find it, but I remember a quote somewhere, “You will be judged by your actions, not by your words”.
Brian S (formerly Incertus)
@psychobroad: As a former JW, and as someone who still has family who does the door-to-door, I thank you. I’ll admit I get aggravated with the Witnesses sometimes, especially since I’ve explained to them multiple times that I’ve voluntarily left and I’m not coming back ever, and yet they still pop up at my door every few months, and because I haven’t had a real conversation with my parents in the last 15 years because of their rules on shunning former members who’ve left the faith, but it takes faith and a belief that you’re trying to save peoples’ souls to do that day in and day out. I get that they’re a pain in the ass, and I’m sure I was when I was doing it too, but I don’t think that’s necessarily justification for shitting on them when they show up, unless they do something to deserve it.
Ruckus
@JWL:
All religious myths are silly, of course.
This can not be said enough. My question is, what part of religion is not a myth?
parsimon
@OGLiberal:
Sadly, I’m not really on board with addressing the problems with O’Donnell as a candidate in this way.
Josie
@Omnes Omnibus: That just blows my mind. I guess that is a holdover from being raised a Methodist. They are all about good works, and I thought that was universal. Obviously not.
Josie
@Ruckus: Thanks. That is what would make sense to me.
Kyle
People believe in and do all sorts of crazy shit and get elected to higher office, but the one surefire barrier (save Pete Stark) to elected office is not believing in something.
Because the atheist, agnostic and irreligious aren’t so bigoted and parcohial that they won’t vote for Xtians, but Xtians are bigoted and parochial enough that they won’t vote for the atheist, agnostic or irreligious.
It’s the same mechanism by which the South is/was disproportionately represented among the most powerful politicians in DC.
Davis X. Machina
What part of life, for a species cursed with consciousness, is not a myth? Without them none of us — even the atheists — have much of a reason, besides fending off hunger, to get out of bed in the morning.
Religious studies, political science, it all turns out to be a species of literary criticism, when you get right down to it.
Omnes Omnibus
@Josie: I believe that good works are encouraged, but not necessarily required for salvation. Again, though, I am NOT an expert, so anyone who actually has knowledge about the various denominations could tell you more.
ETA: I am not saying that those are my personal beliefs.
Triassic Sands
This comment was a response to “thejoz.” By the time I posted it, his/her comment had disappeared (I guess the request to delete a comment function works). I’ll post it anyway, because I think the numbers are both interesting and disgusting.
@thejoz:
Here nor there? I’m afraid the answer is “not here.”
In 2007, when Romney was running and McCain was nearing his 800th birthday, Gallup did a poll asking people who they would and wouldn’t vote for (for president).
Group — would vote for/would not vote for
Catholic — 95/4
Black — 94/5
Jewish — 92/7
A woman — 88/11
Hispanic — 87/12
Mormon — 72/24
Married for the third time — 67/30
72 years of age — 57/42
A homosexual — 55/43
An atheist — 45/53
Here is the trend over time: Would not vote for an atheist
February 2007: 53%
February 1999: 48%
August 1987: 48%
April 1983: 51%
July 1978: 53%
December 1959: 74%
September 1958: 77%
August 1958: 75%
I’m not sure what to make of 2007. Obviously, over time there has been a trending toward either more acceptance or less willingness to admit the truth, but 2007 the percentage is 5% higher than in 1999. Between ’87 and ’99 the number stuck at 48%, but eight years later…
Even so, I doubt if anyone would say they would refuse to vote for an atheist if, in fact, they would be willing to vote for one. But I can easily imagine people saying they would, when, in reality, they wouldn’t. Look at the percentage for Black (i.e., African American). Ninety-five percent say they would vote for an African American, but I’m skeptical of that number. I can easily imagine lots of Americans not wanting to admit they are racists (even to a pollster). The number for Mormon is surprisingly high, but it may be that religion is a place where Americans draw the line. Wrong religion — big problem. No religion — even worse.
A 2006 University of Minnesota study found that atheists are this country’s most despised minority. Muslims came out behind people who are “not religious,” but well ahead of atheists. Recent events reveal a widespread antipathy toward Muslims, but it seems that it’s better to believe in a murderous, war-mongering, infidel-slaying Allah* than in no deity at all. Go figure. The 2006 Minnesota poll also came up with a number greater than the ’87 and ’99 percentages. So, maybe opinions of atheists are truly getting worse.
Personally, I think religion belongs in public schools — history of religion, that is. If more people studied the roots of the nonsense they believe, more might either switch sides or at least be less negative about atheists.
*The bigot’s description.
parsimon
@Triassic Sands:
Fascinating data. Do you have a link to the source?
Kyle
@Omnes Omnibus:
Your plastic, tribal Walmart-ish megachurches lean in this direction. Because it suits their selfish, conservatard don’t-help-strangers tribal view of the world, and conveniently doesn’t require their selfish, conservatard corporate bot congregation to do anything except espouse lip-service ‘belief’ in the tribe.
The kind of people who will go march and scream against something they hate (gays, liberals, Planned Parenthood, etc.) but won’t do jack shit to help the less fortunate like the homeless. They can’t relate or empathise with ‘those people’, who are probably homeless because they’re ‘bad people’ who ‘did something wrong’, and they’re so virtuous that Jeebus would never let it happen to them.
Good works is one of the things I can respect about Christianity. Smug assholes who think they’re automatically morally superior because they joined a tribe and ‘believe’ some bullshit dogma — and do nothing but arrogantly fling damnation and judgement rather than crack open their sealed-tight dusty sarcophagus of a narrow mind and help people — are the scum of the earth.
kommrade reproductive vigor
I am so stealing this.
J sub D
I’ve no problem with theists per se, they are just wrong. Not necessarily insane, nor necessarily evil, just wrong.
I’ve never seen an atheist funded hospital. All the soup kitchens and homeless seem to be run by theists as well. We atheists give to charities (even theist ones if they’re worthy) but we just don’t organize worth a damn.
It will never change. People refuse to accept that their future is nothingness so religion will always be there to fraudulently assure them it isn’t.
Linda Featheringill
@beltane:
Yes, indeed.
I wonder if Jimmy makes them feel weighed in the balance and found wanting? They have a really visceral hatred for the man, who wasn’t [and isn’t] nearly as liberal as Ted Kennedy. I find it mind boggling.
LanceThruster
It’s not even the belief that is at the heart of the problem, it’s the stupid shit they do acting as their god’s proxies.
If believer’s really believed their own mythology, they’d be comfortable in letting their god make things right when the time comes. Instead, they’re out trying to prove how devout they are by hating who their god says to hate, punishing who their god says to punish, and killing who their god says to kill.
And sad to say, our fanatical believers only look better by degree because except for the open murder of abortion doctors and gays, they generally leave off of the mob rule type of thing that some backwards Muslims do when they are offended. I have no doubt if they still had the power to burn blasphemers and heretics, they would.
The xians tend to use the power of the state for their mass killings and use the pretense of secular rationales for their murders, most often based on their greed and/or their fears.
I say fuck the man in the sky!
LanceThruster
@J sub D:
Scientific method and rational thinking made the hospital possible. Do we have to do *everything*!
Brian S (formerly Incertus)
@J sub D: This is changing a little, mainly because of that sort of criticism. But you know who else atheists tend to suggest ought to take care of feeding the poor and caring for their health issues? Government. Yeah, there are a number of libertarian atheist assholes, but there’s a a number of reasons the right tries to cast the Dems as being a bunch of atheists–one is because that’s where we tend to wind up.
Onkel Bob
@psychobroad: Well, many years ago, they (an unknown evangelist sect) came to my door. Busy preparing dinner, I answered the door wielding a 12″ chef’s knife. Upon seeing the trio of mom, dad, and child, I couldn’t help but blurt out: “Children! You brought children for the sacrifice!” For unknown reasons, whenever they canvas the neighborhood, they never came by again.
Linda Featheringill
Jehovah’s Witness:
I find them to be decent people on the whole. Easy to work with on the job. Peaceful to be next to on public transportation. Frequently well read and good conversationalists.
The JWs have a very honorable history in Germany during the Nazi era, and in the USSR during the Stalin era. I think it is because I respect the courage of their predecessors that I try to give them at least 5 minutes when they come to my door. And wish them a pleasant day when they leave.
You don’t have to engage those who are knocking on your door but it probably wouldn’t give you a bellyache to be polite to them.
Onkel Bob
Then there’s this… Crusade? I’m really disappointed with Arts and Letters Daily, and its editor Denis Dutton, for being such a schmuck on this topic.
OGLiberal
@parsimon: My point was that it’s ridiculous to make those claims about Lindsey Graham and Charlie Crist – not, of course, that it should matter if the claims are true – just because they are single men. But of course, they are fair game because they aren’t bible loonies like O’Donnell and because they sometimes says things that sound like they might, every once in a while, agree with Democrats. If she were a Democrat or a so-called RINO, people on the right would be wondering why an attractive woman like O’Donnell never married. And they’d also argue that she can’t really know what it’s like for real ‘Murkins because she’s never been married and doesn’t have kids.
LanceThruster
@Linda Featheringill:
Maybe if they converted afterward because it is my understanding that once they have accepted the JW faith, they are not to risk contaminating their grasp of the truth by reading anything that could challenge it.
Yes, they can be decent people (true for most anyone, no?)but also practice extreme ostracism of those who leave the faith, including family members.
OGLiberal
@parsimon: Here’s Gallup’s article on the poll:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/26611/Some-Americans-Reluctant-Vote-Mormon-72YearOld-Presidential-Candidates.aspx
SoINeedAName
Bottom Line:
For Teapublicans, you can be both Anti-Diddle AND Pro-Dabble … as long as you’re able to change some idiot into a “Newt”.
parsimon
@OGLiberal:
Ah. You’re right, and I agree. I’ve been a little sensitive about a whisper campaign lately that O’Donnell might be a lesbian — to which I say: foul! Irrelevant! Bad form!
I do think that O’Donnell’s successful candidacy trades, just as Sarah Palin’s did, on a very strange (or maybe not so strange) manipulation of feminine roles: a dynamic, conventionally attractive lady who is at the same time not a threat at all to the established order of gender relations. There’s nothing wrong with that in itself, but I have to wonder how a male candidate on an explicit anti-masturbation campaign would come across.
parsimon
@OGLiberal:
Thanks for the link to the Gallup poll.
Brian S (formerly Incertus)
@LanceThruster: When I was a Witness, there was very much a tone of “you can read what you want, but be careful because Satan’s gonna try and getcha.” Didn’t stop me from reading all manner of sci-fi when I was a teenager, but I was a teenager after all, even if I was doing all the “right things” when I was in view of other Witnesses. Best thing that ever happened to me was going to college and being forced to read outside the accepted literature.
Mnemosyne
@Linda Featheringill:
The one thing that drove me absolutely nuts when I worked with one was that he absolutely (and genuinely) didn’t get the concept of holidays and had no idea why no one would show up if he called a meeting at 5 pm on Christmas Eve. The first year he worked for us, he insisted on being let into the building to work over Christmas break, but the next year he was able to get a special dispensation from his pastor (or whatever) on the grounds that it was inconvenient for us (his employers) to have to open the building just for him.
That was partly because he’d come from the system of JW hospitals and had been pretty insulated from the outside world. Nice guy, though.
LanceThruster
@Brian S (formerly Incertus):
Thanks for sharing your personal experience on this matter. That’s one of the reasons I found an atheistic worldview compelling was that I would voraciously read any apologetics offered and see if the arguments or assertions held up to scrutiny.
To calm down my believer friends who say they sincerely worry about my immortal soul, I tell them that the freedom of belief (or non-belief/unbelief) that I’ve worked to ensure for many years through my involvement with Americans United for Separation of Church and State makes it possible for me to change my godview at any time should I feel it warranted.
I tell them that I see no evidence of god(s) communicating with its supposed creation, but if so, this god knows where to find me. It’s not my fault that no message has been sent.
Roger
@GregB:
Texas has that on their GOP platform this year as well.
psychobroad
@Brian S (formerly Incertus): Of course,the fact that they were black ladies in their Sunday best who reminded me of the black lady who raised me (I am white) didn’t hurt. No way was I going to be rude to them.
psychobroad
@Onkel Bob: **snort** good one!
Asshole
@Triassic Sands:
Yes, everyone who has any religious faith whatsoever is a brain-dead zombie, and we should violate the Civil Rights Act AND the First Amendment by having atheists or agnostics teach children in schools that their parents and grandparents are fools for having religious beliefs.
Thank you, that was very tolerant of you. I certainly hope someday I can hold your view on things, so that I can be as wonderful and as tolerant as you are. Run for office spouting that line, see how many Democratic votes you pick up.
asiangrrlMN
@Brian S (formerly Incertus): I am not rude to them; I simply don’t answer the door.
I think it would be fascinating to have an open atheist run for office. It’s about time to push that particular prejudicial button, methinks. If I were an atheist, I would do it myself.
Mnemosyne
I think this little video from Mitchell & Webb may amuse:
Vectron
dearolddad
Yeah…I don’t get it but people are afraid of atheists. I guess ….it does make things easier if you can pretend that some invisible man with magical powers is living in the sky watching out for you. Also it is a good way to keep people (especially poor people) in line …’yeah, your life sucks but when you die things will really pick up for you’…
And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823