I was struck by how similar the Kos post (linked to by mistermix) about Obama “groveling at the feet of the Captains of Industry” was to the endless conservative carping about Obama “scraping and bowing” before the Japanese emperor and Saudi King.
I think it goes to a basic difference I — and probably many of you — have with a lot of the rest of the blogosphere: I just can’t get with the all I’m-the-man, respect-mah-authoritah school of politics. I understand the importance of not getting bitch-slapped (to use Josh Marshall’s phrase) by your political opponents, but when it comes to dealing with foreign allies or puffed-up Galtian overlords, I can’t see what’s so wrong with going symbolic diplomatic formalities. I would like to tax the wealthy more and regulate certain industries — particularly energy and finance — more, but I really don’t care if Obama kisses some CEO ass every now and then in special meetings he has with these clowns.
I just don’t see why this kind of thing matters.
liberty60
I think it is part and parcel with the notion that the President is some sort of Super CEO of America, that he has (or should have) magical dictatorial powers to wave away anything we don’t like by kingly fiat.
It would be gratifying to see him go gansta on the bankster ass, but ultimately it only does what shouldn’t be done, which is to endlessly enlarge the office of the Presidency.
I am reminded of Harry Truman’s comment about how everyone thought he was some sort of princely lord, but in fact his day was spent mostly kissing ass.
General Stuck
Yes, and other countries have different formalities. Say, for instance, holding hands and whispering sweet nothings into a Saudi oil sheik’s ear. I just hope Obama dodges that one, for sake of the crazy it will ignite here in the American loony bin.
mistermix
Chamberlain references are also pervasive on the right- Gingrich trots it out on occasion. I don’t know if he’s used it to describe Obama, specifically.
different church-lady
I’m now thinking the mindset on the left is, “I voted for Hulk, and Hulk won’t smash!”
John's Minions
If he can continue to wring any sort of victories out of either allies or Moneymen, and aid it with bows and scrapes, then great! Vetinari might point out that bowing costs you nothing.
..
I wonder what the equivalent of firebaggers would be in the Pratchett universe…
RoryBellows
Cult of the Presidency. I think the critics of this Administration from left and right share the same myopia. There’s a reason we haven’t had a former legislator elected to the WH in so long. People hate to see how the sausage is made. They want authoritarianism, stroke of a pen type stuff. Yet, if what you want is change over the long term, people who know how the sausage is made are exactly the types you should elect into executive positions. The stuff they pass will last forever. The stuff they say won’t last a news cycle.
The Grand Panjandrum
On slow news days the political blogosphere needs SOMETHING to be outraged about. C’mon DougJ get with the program biddy. Outrage is the currency of this medium without it what would it be?
freelancer
Because Unemployed former CEO-level Executive Recruiter Susie Madrak says it does.
cat48
Some of the diaries there are like reading right wingers.
Dennis, This is OT, but I was wondering how you felt about O being invited to Charleston, SC, for celebration of the start of the Civil War?? No word yet if he’ll appear. Mayor Riley is a really nice man, but I just don’t know about this…………
kdaug
It’s an issue of whether one focuses on tactics or strategy. If he can score, I frankly don’t give a shit if he looked stupid doing it.
SiubhanDuinne
Obama can’t win-for-losing on this one. If he extends the conventional courtesies, he’s “bowing and scraping and groveling and kowtowing.” If he doesn’t, he’s being “uppity” — or, worse, “angry black man.”
New Yorker
@freelancer:
That pretty much says it all. Obama inherited the worst financial crisis since 1929 and in two years, has not eliminated unemployment and poverty in the face of endless GOP obstruction, so he’s a failure. Christ, what color is the sky on these peoples’ planets?
edit: also too, healthcare reform isn’t supposed to help “the people who are drowning out here”?
Short Bus Bully
Because Obama is not only here to run the country, he’s here to make me feel better by curb stomping the people I don’t like, dammit! After all real life is very much like a WWE extravaganza. The “bad guys” can’t only lose on policy quibbles, they must also be humiliated, chastised, publicly shamed, and then I must be lifted to the shoulders of the winners and paraded through the streets while…
Wait, what?
The Grand Panjandrum
@The Grand Panjandrum: Sigh. biddy = buddy. (Or maybe …. ?)
Karmakin
@kdaug: The problem is when it comes to this stuff he’s throwing airballs, basically, or at least that’s the perception.
Now personally, what would I like to see Obama do? I’d give the “captains of industry” a choice. Increase jobs and wages in order to make things better for working class people, or increase capital gains taxes and use the funding to open up a department dedicated to maintaining full employment.
Ball’s in their court.
Now I don’t think the latter would pass, but I do think that it’s a strong statement that would give disaffected non-voters a reason to come out to the polls. In fact, it’s them and not the “independents” that are the key to Obama’s success and failure.
And strong statements work even if they do nothing. How do you think the Republicans stay around?
4tehlulz
@cat48: How do you politely turn down this request due to a limited supply of Kevlar?
Seriously, that invite is practically asking Obama if he wants to get shot.
Cat Lady
Everyone has seen too many movies, and watched too much sports. It takes clear eyed equanimity to see that no one is perfect, nothing is always all one way or all another, and that things that have taken years or decades to do take at least that long to undo. Americans want heroes and for “our” team to win, the losers vanquished, and to hear the lamentations of their women – WOLVERINES!
El Cid
I have noticed but not paid serious attention to which articles get to the tops of the ‘rec list’ on Kos, b/c I guess it shows a broad outlook of the many readers. (To tell the truth I only skim through the front page articles.)
But it’s my impression that a core number of super-close readers and diarists not only post a lot such that people (me too) recognize the diarist, but that the core of obsessives quickly rec some diary very quickly and then there’s a pile-on.
Jewish Steel
If you can’t be bothered to find out, or if you already know but can’t be bothered to explain, the complex maneuverings and all the symbolic acts that go into actually governing and getting some shit done, then the look of the thing is all you have.
And that’s why Cutler needs to show more leadership.
Linda Featheringill
@cat48:
Yes! Obama should go and participate. HOWEVER, he should give a speech of his own. He should talk about preserving the Union. He should talk about how Real Americans come in all flavors. He should talk about the variety of opinions and philosophies that make up the American point of view.
Barack Obama should take this opportunity to observe the anniversary of disunion and talk about how knitted together we all are.
All in all, it could be very nice.
Brian S (formerly Incertus)
I don’t really care when Obama, or any president for that matter, plays the diplomatic game with heads of state because I’m not a believer in American exceptionalism, and I don’t think it hurts the nation as a whole to show a little humility on the world stage.
There’s a difference for me, though, between doing that when he’s representing the nation and when he’s talking to CEOs, because then it feels like he’s choosing sides against my economic class, and in that war, I feel like I ought to have the government, as represented by the President, on my side, not opposing me. (Notice I used the word ought–I’m enough of a realist to know that that has never been the case, nor is it likely to be.) And it stings a little more today than it ever has in my lifetime because I’m feeling the effects of that class war more keenly than I ever have before.
Martha
You know what, to channel my grandmother’s advice, which has guided me well, you always benefit by being polite and curteous. You just do, even when you’re totally irritated and want to wring someone’s neck. So being polite and respectful of people who run companies or countries is not a sign of weakness. It is a sign of good manners. But the emo shriekers obviously have never benefitted from trying this skill. I think it’s also called diplomacy in certain circles…
Loneoak
Finally, some actually tiny thing that is worth getting outraged at Obama for: calling up the Eagle’s owner to praise him for hiring Vick.
How hard is it for people to understand that everyone’s right to a second chance is not the same as the right to be a millionaire quarterback? It’s the right to become a basic citizen again, not to receive garlands and praise. Vick should be working at a Taco Bell. Or, better yet, working for a parks department picking up dog shit.
kdaug
@Karmakin:
There’s the rub. I’d rather have progress than feel better about how shitty things are.
Besides, guess who’s going into the history books.
Guess who aren’t.
Allan
Many Kossacks also insist that Obama is a secret
KenyanRepublican and a closetMuslimhomophobe.Also, the fact that RainbowGirl turned out to be an old white woman PUMA deadender does nothing to undermine her brilliant analysis of how Obama hates poor black folk.
different church-lady
@El Cid: Remember when that guy figured out that 28% of the country would still vote for Bush even if he screwed one of Quaddafi’s goats on national TV?
I’ve discovered a similar rule for DKos: post anything that screeches about Obama selling out progressives and it will get roughly 350 people recommending it.
So, basically that’s what you’ve got over there: 350 people (out of like 200k registered over the years) who control the tone of the place.
cat48
Yikes, Press TV Iran, runs story on end of life plans EO:
El Cid
@different church-lady: It seems to me though that when someone posts a strong (i.e., well written and probably some diarist people are familiar with) it gets lots of rec’s too and up to the top of the list.
valdivia
@cat48:
I am sure Palin will tweet about it any time now, because you know Iran TV is her kinda network!
NobodySpecial
Well, I think the difference is fairly obvious: The Saudi king and the Chinese “President” aren’t Obama’s political opponents, while the Galtian overlords have pretty clearly shown they are, with their dollars funding an ever growing amount of attack ads through their cutout, the Chamber of Commerce.
Brian S (formerly Incertus)
@Loneoak: I just want you to think for a second about what you’re suggesting in re Vick. You’re saying that people once convicted should be punished beyond their terms in prison. If that’s the case, then what’s the point of prison terms? Why not just lock everyone up for life for whatever offense and say fuck ’em–they messed up once and we’re done with them.
I’m not trying to minimize what Vick did–if anything, the sentence he received was too short, in my opinion–but our argument in that case ought to be over how to make prison terms for those offenses longer. Once the person convicted has served his/her time, you have to give them a chance to reintegrate into society or you’re left with a permanent criminal underclass who has no reason to try to do anything else, which is what we already have, and frankly, it’s not working out very well.
srv
Well, you want it both ways. You guys cheer when he says he’s the only one holding off the pitchforks (rolls eyes), and then get mad when Wall Street actually gets their fragile sensibilities hurt and dig in, or hippies aren’t happy with just the look of satisfaction on their master’s faces.
None of these politicos is sucking cock to really effect change, otherwise there would some of that. They’re doing what any whore does – trying to make a living or feed their next
addictionelection.freelancer
@different church-lady:
That smacks of Crazification capture.
kos
This is why it matters, from the 2010 exit polls:
http://images2.dailykos.com/images/user/3/wall_street_exit_polls.gif
People are outraged at the excesses of Wall Street and Big Business. Inviting them over for tea and apologizing for being mean to them isn’t the way to change the perception amongst too many voters who think the Democrats are in Wall Street’s corner.
Look at those exit poll numbers. If that doesn’t change, Obama is a one-termer.
Davis X. Machina
Shit, property isn’t theft yet? What’s taking so long.
different church-lady
@El Cid: I’ll cop to being a bit myopic over there lately. I’ve read some real shit-wrapped-in-a-lot-of-words over there and it will literally ZOOM to the top of the rec list within an hour.
But you’re right, it’s more like 50/50. And there are a handful of “stars” that get a slot on the list with almost every utterance.
The funny thing is they’re going to revamp things soon to de-emphasize the rec list, and the stars are quite grumpy about it.
Stillwater
@different church-lady: I’m now thinking the mindset on the left is, “I voted for Hulk, and Hulk won’t smash!”
Exactly. It’s the politics of petulance and retribution. Go all Chuck Norris on their asses. It’s also creepily authoritarian, this idea of expecting our guy to use his political superpowers primarily to punish our enemies.
Davis X. Machina
@kos:
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
Face it, he should have resigned the day after his inauguration Power corrupts, the greater the power the greater the corruption, and no one is more powerful that the President. The only principled thing to do is to refuse to participate in your own corruption. Let the Republicans run everything. They don’t mind being corrupt. It’s what they do. That’s the only way Democrats can continue on, un-bought, un-bossed, untainted by office.
different church-lady
@freelancer: That’s the saddest true thing I’ve heard in a while.
As I said above, the great orange powers that be seem to be aware of the problem and they’ll soon be jiggering things to take the emphasis off the rec list. Maybe things will get back into balance.
Hogan
@John’s Minions: The people! United! Will never be ignited!
different church-lady
@Davis X. Machina: Oh you…
Tim
Troll post, DougJ.
You REALLY don’t see how it makes a difference if BO is kissing the asses of our Galtian overlords in private meetings?
You REALLY don’t think such behavior is an indication of O’s mindset or frame of reference?
You REALLY don’t believe private meetings with health care fat cats BEFORE HCR kicks off indicates anything at all? Just means nothing? They wanted to get together and chat for no reason at all?
Either you’re bullshitting or you’re stupid, and I know it’s not the latter.
Honestly, surely BJ traffic is healthy enough that these silly, flame-bait posts are not necessary. ?
Davis X. Machina
@different church-lady: A polity without politics, or failing that, a politics-without-politicians is a widely shared fantasy, on both sides.
Hasn’t been one since the days of Solon and Cleisthenes, but that doesn’t stop people from wishing…
Brian S (formerly Incertus)
@kos:
The one thing you should know better than anyone else is that those numbers will change–there’s no way of knowing how they’re going to change between now and 2012, but they’re going to, so making this statement right now is the classic example of being factually accurate while substance-free.
SiubhanDuinne
@Linda Featheringill #20: Yes! You said exactly what I was thinking — that POTUS should accept the invitation on condition that he would have an opportunity to make an address of his own, on our nation’s diversity and promise, how far we’ve come in 150 years, how far we still need to go. One of his brilliant high-oratory speeches that defined him in the first place. I can’t think of a better setting or opportunity to say some things that need to be said.
(After that, yeah, he should narrate Copland’s *Lincoln Portrait* — he’d be awesome.)
J.D.
Kos’s complaint has nothing to do with the “I’m-the-man, respect-mah-authoritah school of politics”. It has to do with the “don’t play into your opponent’s framing of you” school of politics.
The problem isn’t that symbolic ass-kissing is demeaning or authority-weakening for the president — it can be a little embarrassing, but so long as you get something meaningful in exchange for it then who cares? The problem that Kos pointed out is that by appearing to apologize for being anti-business, Obama essentially accepts and legitimizes the myth that he has been anti-business (and hence is responsible for the current economic woes). But in fact Obama has been great for (certain kinds of) business.
Dennis SGMM
Here on Balloon Juice we can clap for Obama or we can boo at Obama: it won’t make one bit of difference in 2012. What will likely make a difference is that U6 unemployment remains stuck at 17%, the numbers of the long-term unemployed are increasing, and approximately 1.4 million of the Tier V unemployed (The 99ers) have just fallen off of the face of the earth as far as the federal government is concerned.
If these trends aren’t reversed then the party in power is likely to take a pasting in the next General Election. It won’t matter who’s to blame because people who are hurting usually lash out at the most visible target. Factor in the deluge of money unleashed by the Citizen’s United decision and we have the makings of a Reagan-style blowout.
DougJ
@kos:
A couple questions:
1) How much play does this story get among regular voters?
2) Do you think that has a big impact on how voters vote, if they are aware of it? My view is that they mostly care about the economy.
3) To the extent that it does get play among regular voters, how much of that is through Fox-Drudge, which would invent a story like this if it didn’t exist?
Davis X. Machina
Exhibit One: The Tories. They ran, in the depths of a recession second only to that of the 30’s, on a completely non-covert, loudly announced, time-tested platform of taking steps known to make things worse for 99% of the U.K.
And even in the depths of said recession, they got within a Nick-Clegg’s-ego-length of the finish line.
eemom
maybe it’s just me, but this blog kind of feels like that Groundhog Day movie today: every post a new dawn of baffled wonderment over the stupid shit people say about Obama.
All of this is new and different from the last five hundred seventy three gazillion flame-igniting posts with “Obama” in the title, um, HOW, exactly…..?
ETA: Ah. I see now that the mighty K has honored us with his presence. This IS an occasion.
matoko_chan
Do you remember this post O Noble Meme Warrior DougJ?
Obama has an impossible job…hes trying to stave off nonlinear system collapse and do the right thing at the same time.
it cant be done, you kno. ;)
In mathematics, it is what we call an impossible problem.
i agree with Justice Stewart.
this is the great test of Obama’s presidency. Staving off nonlinear system collapse or the moral imperative of doing the right thing?
interesting times.
srv
@Tim: I guess hippies would rather be akin to birthers while intelligencia like DougJ would rather be a devotee to Leo Strauss.
Loneoak
@Brian S (formerly Incertus):
You’re assuming that it is punishment not to work in the NFL. This isn’t a question about what the government should do, it is question about what the NFL should do, and what a reasonable society should expect in terms of social rehabilitation. The NFL, and be extension those who watch and enjoy the NFL, have turned him into a celebrated quarterback. Punishment has nothing to do with that. How the government can and should punish felons is an entirely different question as to how and when society should celebrate a person’s ‘return.’
MBunge
I don’t understand the link Kos posted. It has Obama coming in 3rd behind Wall Street and George W. Bush as far as blame for the economy. How is two other folks getting most of the blame a bad thing for Obama?
Mike
Allan
@kos: Wait, what?
So Republicans blame Wall Street and Obama, while Democrats blame Bush, and this means that Obama will not be re-elected because he really offended all those Republicans who hate Wall Street when he was civil to them that one time in 2010?
Rahm was right, you are fucking retarded.
MikeMc
@Tim: What would you have done? Not meet with any of these people? This is what I find annoying about the left. They talk about all the things they want, but never explain a strategy to get it. They wanted a larger stimulus, but never explained where they were going to get the votes.
srv
@Dennis SGMM:
And hippies were nihilists compared to their betters, the pragmatists, because they would have sacrificed the 99’ers over the tax bill…
Mnemosyne
@kos:
The fact that 91% of Republicans think the downturn is Obama’s fault proves that he’s in electoral trouble in 2010?
Ooookay.
The Real American Democrat
American middle and working class people really don’t know how good they have it under Obama. If it was President McCain, unemployment would be 25%. So they better vote for Obama because 10% is nothing. In McCain world, they’d be less fortunate. It’s a good thing most of them are too stupid to know how the economy works. Obama knows best. That’s why he listens to the CEOs. They know how to run a business and they know what it takes to make a business profitable. The middle and working class are going to have to make sacrifices.
DougJ
@Tim:
No, I don’t. I don’t care if he gives Jimmy Dimon hand jobs in private. I care about legislation and policy.
I was reasonably happy with the financial regulation bill. To the extent that I criticize Obama, it would be because of that bill not going far enough and for Congress not taking on things like carried interest exemption.
matoko_chan
@kos: like i said….O is trying to stave off nonlinear system collapse. kissing wall street ass and kissing saudi prince ass are isomorphic.
do you understand systems theory?
Obama is not playing 13D chess here, like with HCR.
America is in the first stages of NLSC (nonlinear system collapse).
Linear system failure can be choked off at fail points….non-linear system collapse cannot be stopped as easily. for example, bailing the banks didnt fix the economy. Dig Juicer Cat–
sides Markos, O is not a liberal.
he is a machiavellian pragmatist.
Joe Max
@John’s Minions:
I wonder what the equivalent of firebaggers would be in the Pratchett universe…
The Golem Trust. (Think of the scene where Adora tries to convince the golems to go on strike.) And Hamscher would be non-smoking Adora Belle Dearheart.
The Real American Democrat
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/gallery/2010/12/15/GA2010121500060.html#photo=15
Look at this gallery and tell me which one of the CEOs best represents your interests and which one wouldn’t sell you down the river if it meant a 1% year end improvement to the bottom line? Who should represent your best interests? Because 99% of Americans aren’t represented there.
Rhoda
@kos: I don’t get what you’re saying.
People are outraged at Wall Street and Barack Obama has been called everything but a child of God by these Wall Street types; that’s what most people see. They see a financial reform bill that had to survive a Republican filibuster.
That poll shows that DESPITE the fact people hate Wall Street; they put the defenders of Wall Street back in power.
Why?
JOBS
Independents want a stronger economy and a better job market; they aren’t satisfied with the growth that has happened and the fact a depression was averted.
If the Economy improves and unemployment is at 8/8.5 going into the election Obama will win; if it’s as it is now and we’re treading water he’ll get in by the skin of his teeth because I think the turnout favors him either way.
But the fact is the Democratic party has been just as captured by the money people as the right wing; just not as much. So every single damn thing is a headache to pass and all reform is incremental because the money people have MORE power now than they did when FDR took them on. The Money folks are global and since governments are local; governments are at an inherent disadvantage. Couple that with Citzens United and frankly I’m AMAZED at what has been accomplished.
What really kills me, through, is that in adopting these memes to attack the President you’re actually working to limit his power. These are direct attacks on our quarterback. They further the right wings attacks and amplify them and I’m at a loss to see why you’re doing it. No progress happens if you kill the quarterback. It divides the party and it takes longer to get back the power we lost.
Not falling in line with POTUS’s trigger public option plan is actually IMO the number one reason we lost the election. The party didn’t pivot back to the economy in January and we didn’t have a focus on legislation that would paint a picture for the people on what the Republicans stand for; and when we tried to do that before the election and Republicans were on the run blue dogs shot themselves in the feet refusing to vote on the tax bill. None of that is on Obama; but he’s the one getting the blame.
I could go on and on; but it’s probably pointless and this is already too long.
ETA: This is also part of the reason why POTUS had such a successful lame duck. People are already having buyers remorse IMO and the tax cut is the clarifying reason why; the administration is therefore in a position to have a stronger hand in the coming budget fight. But they’re going to have to nod towards deficit reduction and already everyone is screaming austerity budget when they’ve already telegraphed they’re focusing on taxes. It’d be nice if folks take the fact that every budget Obama has presented has been a progressive budget and give the administration room to maneuver and amplify the administrations message.
Policy fights ought to wait two years: everything from here on in is about defending the last two years and re-electing Obama and getting back the house.
Davis X. Machina
@MikeMc:
FDRbullypulpitLBJarmtwisting HSTprimarychallengesJKFcommitteechairs, that’s how.
snarkypsice
@kos:
He won’t be a one-termer and no amount of saying it will make it any more likely.
To me that comment more than any other, shows that you just fundamentally don’t get this President, where he’s going, or why he appeals to more people than any other politician.
srv
@Allan: 35% + 29% = 64% blame Wall Street or GW.
Sucking up to their side of the argument gets you what in 2012? Re-elected?
Best of luck with that strategery.
Dennis SGMM
@srv:
I don’t understand your reply. The plight of the 99ers was not addressed in the tax bill.
different church-lady
@The Real American Democrat: I’m gonna take that as a demonstration of the ironic voice, yes?
kdaug
@matoko_chan: Oh, god, not another one of your pronouncements about the red, white, and blue screen of death…
Svensker
,
There’s a difference between being polite/respectful and kissing ass. My view is that he’s been respectful with foreign dignitaries, as he should have been. But has kissed ass with the CEOs, which he shouldn’t have done.
That doesn’t seem so hard to unnerstan, does it?
valdivia
huh?
can someone explain to me what makoto is saying?
I never understand it and been too shy to ask.
rickstersherpa
Again, I suspect the current left wing rage at Obama not establishing the Canadian Health Care single payer system in the U.S. and restoring unemployment from near 10% to 3% in two yyears will wane as they start seeing what the Republicans in the House start rolling out in two weeks time. From Bernie Sanders and Jane Hamsher to Rahm Emanuel and the DLC we will start rallying around the flag. See Steve Benen in today’s Washington Monthly for GOP plans to unreform they system and bring back those glorious pre-Lehman moments.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/
kdaug
@DougJ:
Ding!
That’s also the complaint about HCR – no PO.
Yeah you gave me a pony, but I wanted a rainbow too, damnit!
different church-lady
@kdaug:
I… smellllll…. NEW CATEGORY NAME!
HRA
@Martha:
This
Ben H.
I wasn’t struck by anything of the sort. The groveling b4 the Captains has been accompanied by actions — tax cuts for millionaires, a continued hands-off, no-aggressive-regulation policy towards the practices that blew up the financial markets and a refusal to use the President’s bully pulpit to lay the blame for that blow-up on the Captains… leaving the field clear for Republicans to claim it was the federal government giving no-$-down loans to poor black people that caused our economic problems.
The deep bows before the Japanese Emperor and the Saudi King weren’t accompanied by any similar tax cuts or tongue baths that I know of.
matoko_chan
@kdaug: get your dumb bovine ass into the BALLOON JUICE ARCHIVES and go read DougJ’s OLD BALLOON JUICE post to understand nonlinear system collapse of complex adaptive systems.
its all in the link, cudlip.
valdivia, toi aussi.
you cannot understand what i am saying if you dont read the links in my comments.
chew your own cud– im not going to pre-masticate it for you.
Brian S (formerly Incertus)
@Loneoak:
That statement, to me, is a dangerous catchall, because “society” almost always winds up being defined as “what I think and what everyone else should agree with” when in fact there is no societal agreement on, well, pretty much anything. The fact that Vick is a celebrated quarterback instead of an ostracized ex-con picking up dog shit shows that there’s disagreement on what’s acceptable in those terms. What you’re really saying, whether you mean to or not, is that you find Vick’s crime so reprehensible that he ought to be a social outcast, and that you’re upset that not everyone agrees with you. And I get that. It bugs me too that Vick has been embraced to such a degree.
ChrisS
@rickstersherpa:
“See Steve Benen in today’s Washington Monthly for GOP plans to unreform they system and bring back those glorious pre-Lehman moments.”
Yeah, I can’t wait to see what Obama compromises on when his party doesn’t control the house.
Obama can only get practical things done due to the political climate when he has majorities in both houses of congress. But now that the GOP has a slim majority in the house, WATCH THE FUCK OUT!
eemom
@valdivia:
sometimes incoherent is just incoherent.
DJShay
@The Grand Panjandrum:
Maybe a place that could actually make something happen? I had this discussion earlier. For all the netroots emotion, they tend to stay behind the keyboard. And yell.
different church-lady
@Brian S (formerly Incertus):
Actually what is shows is that he’s a major-league asshole who also has major league sports talent, and that we have a hard time as a society holding two conflicting thoughts in our heads at the same time.
marabout40
@RoryBellows: They’ve got their fingers stuck in their ears going, “Lalalalalalalalala!” at a voice of reason and common sense like yours.
matoko_chan
@eemom: ahhhh the old harpy patrol makes the scene. i think you should all go back to crotch sniffing Assange.
dig this eemom.
the second viddie is for you and mr. burns…..admit it, you were spoofed on the A-stan docs, you stupid cow.
Loneoak
@Brian S (formerly Incertus):
Yes, that is what I am saying.
There’s no need to go all non-cognitivist on me. I don’t mean that I’m upset, I mean that those other people are wrong.
rickstersherpa
@Rhoda: I agree with you Roda, this election was Independents being very unhappy with the unemployment rate and the collapse of house prices and the very reql decline in their standard of living and voting the ins out was one way about expressing that unhappiness. It was also about a Democratic base that was first complacent, and then demoralized by a stalled economy and a legislative process that did not deliver any immediate relief to their situation. For this last part Obama does bear some responsibility (See Yglesias and Economists for Firing Larry Summers for the details). But however painful it was, this this tax fight seems to have gotten the base excited again, even if initially as angry at Obama as the Republicans.
Again, I believe the Left wlll rally, if reluctantly, to Obama as Coburn, Kantor, and company begin to glibbly push through the House a budget with with a 200 billion dollar cut in non-defense, non-homeland security, discretionary spending and cuts in Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security.
MMonides
Give Kos a break: after pretty much subletting his blog to Hamsher he’s got to find a way to appeal to his new constituency of emo-progressives who would never sacrifice the few for the many, but who are ever so willing to sacrifice all for naught.
Brian S (formerly Incertus)
@different church-lady: So, no room in your head for the possibility that he’s actually been rehabilitated? I mean, that is a possibility, isn’t it?
Look, I don’t know Michael Vick, and I don’t care about him. But he did his time and paid his debt to society, and to me, that means he ought to have the chance to re-enter society without his past hanging over his head, and that goes for anyone, no matter what they were convicted of.
kdaug
@matoko_chan: What’s with your obsession with cows? Seriously. It’s like you’re some random comment-generator program, but the only two options are “WikiLeaks” and “cows”.
MMonides
@kos:
And now that I see Markos is over here… Um, Markos, using those polls as some kind of “proof” that by meeting with some CEOs “Obama is a goner,” is poli sci malpractice. Seriously, your MSNBC talking head card should be revoked for that one.
matoko_chan
@kdaug: cudlips is my pet name for stupid juicers that dont (or possibly…cant) read the links in my comments.
get smarter and ill stop using it.
and that comment is cudlip bullshytt.
i talk about religion and genetic tendancy a lot…..and cognitive ability.
;)
Anya
@kos: How exactly do those numbers prove that President Obama is a one-termer?
kdaug
@matoko_chan:
Or, perhaps, simply don’t want to.
No?
different church-lady
@Brian S (formerly Incertus): No no, I do accommodate that in my head — for the sake of brevity I just didn’t accommodate it in my post.
I don’t know him nor care about him much either. I do, however, find the public reaction to this situation fascinating. Some people seem incapable of separating the concept of marveling over athletic performance from praising him as a person.
As for what I think, I’m going to have to take on faith reports that he’s not only repudiated his actions but is actually advocating against dog fighting — to my mind that’s a more major indicator of rehabilitation than “doing your time.”
Of course the cynical might say he’s only do it because he has to. And ain’t that the great thing about cynicism: there’s no way to ever prove it right or wrong.
matoko_chan
@MMonides:
niiice call.
AAA Bonds
Well, here’s one big difference: foreign leaders are foreign leaders, while the leaders of the finance industry are domestic criminals who should be in jail.
Any other questions?
matoko_chan
@kdaug: do us both a favor and pie meh.
many here do, since they simply have inadequate intellectual substrate to read linkage, and my comments are not understandable without the link material.
again, its not my job to educate you, its your job to educate yourself.
chew your own damn cud.
different church-lady
@matoko_chan:
So, you’re just doing this as a passionate hobbyist, then?
licensed to kill time
It’s quite possible that matoko_chan has some interesting ideas buried in all the taunting leet/gamer/hakspeak but as they are delivered in a torrent of abuse and sneering assumptions about the intelligence of her intended audience, it’s no wonder she gets ignored or taunted right back.
Sometimes it’s how the ideas are presented. Maybe the disheveled guy shouting on the street corner has brilliant ideas, too, but most people are going to hurry on past.
Tim H
You really think that bringing knee pads to a gun fight doesn’t matter? Wow.
NR
@Allan: Before you start calling people fucking retarded, you’d better make sure you understand what the fuck you’re talking about. In this case, you don’t.
The link Kos posted is to an exit poll. It’s not polling Republicans and Democrats, it’s asking all voters how they voted in the 2010 general election.
24% of voters blame Obama for the bad economy. Of those, 91% voted Republican and 6% voted Democratic.
29% of voters blame Bush for the bad economy. Of those, 83% voted Democratic and 15% voted Republican.
35% of voters blame Wall Street for the bad economy. Of those, 57% voted Republican and 41% voted Democratic.
That last number is of the most concern. A plurality of voters blame Wall Street for our economic woes, and a solid majority of those people voted Republican. That would not have happened if Obama and the Democrats had been tougher on Wall Street. Instead, Obama appointed Wall Street flacks to set his economic policy.
It led to disaster in the last election, and it will lead to disaster in the next election if Obama stays this particular course.
different church-lady
@NR:
Maybe all that proves is that the voters are “fuckin’ retarded.”
SiubhanDuinne
@Valdivia #72:
Shorter matoko_chan:
*Kos is a CUDLIP*
NR
@MMonides: You’re right. Obama is brilliant. His political strategy hasn’t led to any problems at all for the Democratic party, and anyone who thinks it has is just overly emo. Last month’s election was just a bad dream.
MikeMc
The far left and the far right are basically the same. Their ideal candidates usually can’t get elected. Even if they do they are bound to disappoint. The chatter from the fringes turns to how much more successful this or that elected official would have been if they were more progressive/conservative. It happens every time. Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama. It’s why Howard Dean is still so beloved by the left. He said everything progressives wanted to hear 2004, but never got elected. He never got the opportunity to try and implement any of his policies. He never had to make difficult decisions or cut an unsavory deal. His progressive myth is built on rhetoric not accomplishment. He will never disappoint.
joe from Lowell
The largest segment of the firebaggers are people who came of age during the Bush presidency. As a result, they think that the president is supposed to behave that way, and feel disappointed that Obama isn’t a Democratic Bush.
They don’t understand that the way the Bush administration operated is not how presidents are supposed to operate – that it was a dangerous break from this country’s democratic, constitutional traditions.
MikeMc
@NR: How should the Pres. and Democrats been tougher on Wall Street?
Davis X. Machina
@nr, @different church-lady:
Hmn… 0.35 * 0.57= 0.199.
So there’s 20% or so chunk of respondents who think everything would be fine if we just unleashed the creative power of Wall Street more. Who think the crash was caused by too much regulation.
And that’s a natural Democratic voting bloc, that we can’t afford to have sitting on the sidelines…
Ok…
eemom
@matoko_chan:
you’re disgusting, little calf.
I suspect you’d be at Assange’s crotch yourself, if he’d have you.
joe from Lowell
@MikeMc:
There’s that, and there’s also the way they look at the loss of one house of Congress in the first off-year election of a president’s first term, during a time of almost 10% unemployment, and interpret the results as a clear mandate for – guess what! – their own ideological and policy preferences.
NR
@different church-lady: Or maybe it proves that the Democrats haven’t been tough enough on Wall Street criminals, and overall are way too close to Wall Street.
joe from Lowell
@NR:
Back in the real world, Clinton turned right after 1994, became much friendlier towards Wall Street and other economic elites than he had formerly been, and cruised to re-election.
Wile E. Quixote
@matoko_chan:
And despite your constant blathering about cognitive ability you’re incapable of mastering simple English grammar and spelling. Listening to you blather about cognitive ability, or the lack thereof, has all of the charm of listening to Dick Cheney talk about firearms safety. In other words, shut the fuck up, ya fuckin cudlip.
AAA Bonds
@MikeMc:
Quick and swift criminal prosecution, under “tax-evasion” style charges if necessary.
AAA Bonds
@MikeMc:
This is always a cute thing to say, but historically, not true at all.
Davis X. Machina
@AAA Bonds: You’re taking a real risk of acquittal. Why not just termination with extreme prejudice?
matoko_chan
@Wile E. Quixote: then pie me or learn some chanese and How To Click On A Link On The Internet.
this is a FUCKING COMBOX on a MOTHERFUCKING BLOG not a doc dissertation.
retard.
kdaug
@matoko_chan:
(Can’t resist)
“I’m not locked in here with you! You’re locked in here with ME!”
ETA: What the hell does “pie meh” mean?
ETA2: I overlooked one variable in the program – it’s “Wikileaks”, “MY links”, and “cows”
joe from Lowell
@NR:
Since Wall Street spent hundreds of millions of dollars to defeat Democrats and elect Republicans, and has gone on the warpath against Obama, I’m afraid we have to discard your pet theory.
The Democrats most certainly haven’t been too close to Wall Street. It’s the economy, stupid.
AAA Bonds
@Davis X. Machina:
In a civilized country, they would have fled from angry mobs back in 2008, but we do the best we can.
NR
@MikeMc: How about prosecuting the banksters whose malfeasance crippled our economy?
How about passing financial reform with some teeth to it, which does something about “too big to fail?”
How about not appointing a Wall Street hack as Treasury secretary?
Just for starters.
MikeMc
@AAA Bonds: Who would you like to see prosecuted for tax-evasion?
NR
@joe from Lowell:
Timothy Geithner says hey.
matoko_chan
@eemom: admit you were had on the A-stan docs, you retarded bovine.
they spoofed you.
AAA Bonds
@MikeMc:
Well, Goldman Sachs should be seized; probably a sizable chunk of the workforce there should be prosecuted by hook or by crook. E&Y, all the corpses at Lehman Brothers and Merrill Lynch that got propped up in other seats. . . Chase, Morgan Stanley, and that should do for starters. Begin with names like Blankfein and Dimon that everyone already knows.
matoko_chan
@kdaug: use the pie filter or read my linkage in context.
idc which.
MikeMc
@NR: Okay. How do you pass real financial reform with teeth? Who is your nominee for Treasury Secretary?
MBunge
@NR: How about prosecuting the banksters whose malfeasance crippled our economy? How about passing financial reform with some teeth to it, which does something about “too big to fail?” How about not appointing a Wall Street hack as Treasury secretary? Just for starters.
Did the Republicans do any of those things? No.
Did the Republicans talk about doing any of those things? No.
Are the Republicans going to do any of those things? No.
And yet, people pissed at Wall Street still voted for them.
I think there’s a flaw in your reasoning.
Mike
taylormattd
Oh fuck, you’ve summoned the firebaggers with this post. For there is nothing more important than ANGRY LEEEEDERSHIP.
Mnemosyne
Is it just me, or matoko_chan starting to sound like an American tourist in France who insists that her communication problem is because the stupid French people refuse to learn English?
MikeMc
@AAA Bonds: All the institutions and people you mentioned fucked up the economy. However, was any of it illegal? You know what I mean? What do you prosecute them for?
MMonides
@NR:
Last month’s election was highly predictable to anyone who’s taken basic poli sci. Midterm + bad economy = bad for the governing party.
Find me some polling to back your shit up… I won’t wait up.
MMonides
@taylormattd:
Now now, remember, supporting Obama demonstrates an unforgivable bias, but criticizing him demonstrates the purity of one’s fluids. Or Jane Hamsher’s, I’m unclear if the distinction is made among the fire-cultists.
matoko_chan
@kdaug: AND Salam-Douthat stratification AND the demographic timer AND hbd AND al-Islam AND evolutionary games theory AND social network theory, etc, etc.
AND (most important of ALL) WOW PVP THEORYCRAFTING to mention a FEW things i talk about here…..
i get it.
you cant read.
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal
@AAA Bonds: Name individuals linked to specific crimes and let us know what the evidence available to prove the listed crimes beyond a reasonable by the standards required by the law.
Prosecuting fraud is hard. Do you even know what the legal standards for it are? In most instances, it requires specific intent to mislead, and it always has to be about a material fact (and “material” is defined in a way that might not be intuitive to you). You have to be able to enter into evidence something (preferably plural) that explicitly link the person you are trying to prosecute to the intent to mislead about a material fact. Even if you can prove that fraud was committed, you have to be able to explicitly link it to a specific individual. Saying, “They should have known, and so they are guilty,” isn’t enough. There are a few instances in which gross negligence suffices, but those become hard to prove in their own way.
I don’t care how often you yell, “People need to be prosecuted.” If you can’t provide details about *who* should be prosecuted for *what* and *how* you plan to convict them, you’re just ignorantly running your mouth.
kdaug
@Mnemosyne: Don’t start, or she’ll go off about cows again.
matoko_chan
@Mnemosyne: pulling things out of your ass now, Muse? i guess you “forgot” (lol)……i SAID people have to read the linkage to get what i am saying.
ChrisS
@MBunge:
“And yet, people pissed at Wall Street still voted for them.
I think there’s a flaw in your reasoning.”
I think that there’s a flaw, but not NR’s. The fact that these people didn’t vote for the democrats indicates that the dems aren’t getting a clear message out.
kdaug
@matoko_chan:
The most important thing of all is World of Warcraft, player-vs.-player, theory crafting?
I’m humbled.
Does WoW have cows?
Suck It Up!
@Dennis SGMM:
the plight of the 99-ers was not addressed by the left until they wanted to find some other reason to criticize the bill. since so many critics were wondering why the left would throw 2 million others under the bus just so the rich wouldn’t get theirs, they needed to find a less selfish complaint. So they started complaining about 99-ers.
Keith Olbermann (when he was suspended) got more support from the left than was given the 99-ers. I barely saw any push from the left when Debbie Stabenow tried to get the Americans Want To Work Act passed – a bill that would have helped 99-ers. How many of those Democrats and Liberals going on tv slamming the president for “capitulating” also demanded that help for 99-ers be included in the bill? Seriously, I’d like to know because I only heard of one rep in the House mention it on the floor and these 99-er complaints didn’t come until days and days of bitching that Obama hurt the “base’s” feelings and bowed down to the rich and Republicans.
NR
@MikeMc:
Is this a trick question? You write a bill that makes meaningful, substantive financial reforms and you use your huge majorities in both houses of Congress to pass it. If the Republicans filibuster, you go after them for siding with the banksters.
Joseph Stiglitz would have been a good choice. But I’m sure there were other options, too.
FlipYrWhig
Skipping to the end, pardon…
One problem is that Kos continues to impute “groveling” and “apologizing” to these stories, apparently for the purposes of complaining about groveling and apologizing. _Is_ Obama groveling or apologizing when he meets with CEO’s? We hear that “business leaders” complain that he’s “anti-business.” Then we hear that he’s meeting business leaders. Kos concludes from that that he must be using the meeting to apologize. BUT WE DON’T KNOW THAT.
Another problem is that Kos assumes that “business” and “Wall Street” are the same things in people’s minds. I don’t think that’s even close to true. People hate BANKS AND BANKERS, especially investment banks and bankers. That’s what “Wall Street” means. But some of the same people who hate “Wall Street” also think that Obama is “anti-business,” because they may be thinking of _businesses that are not banks_.
Nick
@Karmakin:
which has to go to Congress, which these “captains of industry” own.
Mnemosyne
@matoko_chan:
You said we all have to learn your language because you refuse to speak ours. How does that make you different than the American tourist yelling at the French shopkeeper because they don’t speak English?
matoko_chan
@kdaug: taurens you retarded subsapient baddie.
:)
FlipYrWhig
@NR: FYI, the only reason it’s at all fair to call Geithner a “Wall Street hack” is that he was head of the NY Fed, where he was said to have chummy relations with investment banks — as opposed to his ever working on Wall Street. That, he never has done.
NR
@MMonides: Under FDR, the Democrats gained seats in the 1934 midterm elections, at the height of the Great Depression. If you’re on the side of working Americans, they will support you. If you’re not, they won’t. It’s really that simple.
And the polling data is crystal clear. That you choose not to see it is not my problem.
ChrisS
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal: Jesus, that’s a little excessive just to support a fucking opinion in a comment section of a blog, donchathink?
Obama’s been pretty friendly to Wall Street and the financial giants. As far as support goes, if there’s smoke there’s fire. Geithner, Orzsag, Summers, Bernanke, etc. They’re not looking out for me. I don’t need a white paper to tell me that he’s not meeting with the AFL-CIO in order to address the 10% unemployment.
We’re all operating with incomplete information, but what information we do have, and again it ain’t much, points to Obama being cozy with Wall St. And it’s only fair to criticize him for it considering the financial sector’s fucking meltdown that happened in 2007-08 and which class is getting fucked as an end result (and it ain’t the wealthiest 1%).
matoko_chan
@Mnemosyne: I FUCKING SAID READ THE LINKS OR DONT COMMENT ON MY COMBOXES.…because you will not understand them.
what are you, the Muse of the obliette instead of the Muse of memory?
it wouldnt hurrt you people to learn a lil chanese…..join the 21st century.
did you know cursive is no longer taught in gradeschool?
lawl.
Mnemosyne
@matoko_chan:
I’m still not getting why your inability to communicate your ideas to us and summarize those links in understandable language is our fault, not yours.
Again, you’re demanding that we learn your language, because you can’t be arsed to communicate in plain English.
All I hear when I read your comments is an American tourist shouting at a French shopkeeper that s/he needs to learn English.
ETA:
Which means that people in the future will no longer be able to read historical documents without treating the means of communication (handwriting) as a secret code only comprehensible by the elite few. Why is that a good thing, again?
matoko_chan
@Mnemosyne: again, read the linkage, or pie meh.
idc which.
are you going to buttfuck me because i dont use combox ettiquette?
teehee
kdaug
@matoko_chan: I’ve never witnessed Taurens chewing cud, you semi-moronic sub-Epsilon.
And since it’s now quite evident that I cannot read, but that my homecrafted speech-to-text-to-speech machine is working quite well, I’ll bid you adieu.
Suck It Up!
@NR:
where the fuck have you been for the past 2 years? get a damn reality check.
Buck
@Tim H:
That was a good one!
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal
@ChrisS: I addressed a specific issue. People on this thread are demanding prosecutions. I’m asking them to tell me who to prosecute, and for what. That’s the objection I am starting with, and I’d rather deal with them one by one. Do you have anything to add to this specific issue?
lol
@ChrisS:
Obama meets with labor leaders, December 17, 2010.
Too lazy to google I guess?
matoko_chan
@Mnemosyne:
oh bullshytt. all those docs have been word for word translated ages ago.
language evolves.
you are refusing to learn l’argot, slang.
what is the difference?
conservatives and old ppl worship the past, liberals and young ppl worship the future.
bi la kayfah
joe from Lowell
@NR:
Wall Street says they’re going to kick Tim Geithner’s ass.
Elizabeth Warren says you need to stop pretending you’re friends.
MBunge
@NR: Under FDR, the Democrats gained seats in the 1934 midterm elections, at the height of the Great Depression.
Here’s a hint. When you have to go back just over 2 generations to find an example of your tactic working, you probably need to think about why that is.
Mike
joe from Lowell
@kos:
Yes, kos, if the electorate in a presidential year looks like the electorate in the first off-year election of a new presidency, Obama’s really in trouble.
Perhaps he can take solace in the fact that that has never happened even once in the history of the American republic.
Mnemosyne
@matoko_chan:
Every handwritten document that exists has been “translated” by now? Really?
Though I do look forward to the future where I can leave notes written in cursive to my husband and they will be exactly as comprehensible to our kids as writing them in German would be.
Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it. But it won’t matter if you repeat the exact same mistakes as the past as long as you do it from an iPhone, right?
joe from Lowell
You mean like Bush in 2002 was “on the side of working Americans?”
He’s the only other example. In every single off-year election since the 20s, the president’s party lost seats. A wise person would conclude that two counter-examples in 80 years, both of which were completely different from each, are in fact oddities.
joe from Lowell
Oh, and Johnson lost seats in 1966, after having passed Medicare and other Great Society legislation.
I guess he wasn’t on the side of working Americans.
Suck It Up!
@NR:
Jesus Christ!!! How the hell does that explain the election of people like Rick Scott, the new Gov. of Maine, Chris Christie, The new gov. of Ohio, the guy that’s replacing Feingold and the dozens and dozens of other candidates who were NOT shy about telling the unemployed, immigrants and the working class ‘you’re on your own now please fuck off while I give more tax cuts to Donald Trump’ ?
The guys coming in are NOT on the side of working American and did not pretend to be on our side so you need to look again at what really happened.
NR, I didn’t know you were this clueless. Maybe I didn’t read your past comments enough.
The GOP scared the shit out of old white people and got them to the polls. Not to mention the other factors that consistently happen during mid-terms. The right and the left is delusional in their belief that the mid-terms was the repudiation of Obama. Delusional and stupid.
Mnemosyne
@matoko_chan:
Though I will say, matoko, I admire your absolute conviction that you yourself will never get any older. Who knows, maybe you’ll be able to manage to do what no one has ever managed to do and stay young and relevant forever and ever.
But, more likely, you’ll become yet another aging hipster complaining about how uncool the kids are these days and how much better your generation was.
Allan
@joe from Lowell: It’s too bad he didn’t stick around to play, and we’re left with NR’s interpretation of the Oracle.
ETA: He’s baack…
kos
Sure, they might change. But that wasn’t the case in 2010, and Democrats got pasted. What makes you think that’ll change? By kissing up to Wall Street even more?
If a solid majority of people who blame Wall Street for our nation’s woes continue to vote heavily Republican, then Democrats will face the same outcome in 2012.
Funny how so many commenters here can’t read a simple exit poll. The line that matters are the plurality who think Wall Street is to blame for the nation’s woes, and who voted heavily Republican. That’s mind-boggling to me, and a real problem that Democrats SHOULD work to remedy.
Bob Loblaw
@joe from Lowell:
You are such a fucking liar, it’s scary. Honestly, it’s like the Cold War never happened. Or the Gilded Age. Or Jim Crow. Or Antebellum. Or…
Take your “democratic, constitutional traditions” and cram them firmly up your ass. Although with your rose-colored glasses wearing head already up there, it’ll be a tight fit I’ll grant you.
This blog has become derivative as all get out. The same bitchfest every single day, with the exact same players every time. Because dailykos and firedoglake are just go goshdarned important, you see, and your skins are so very fragile. Let me know if the political blogosphere ever decides to live up to its word and stops emulating cable news at every turn…
Mnemosyne
@kos:
Why is it mind-boggling? After seeing how health insurance reform got transmogrified into “death panels” that sent old people out in droves to vote for Republicans, why are you surprised that the people who say they blame “Wall Street” for our bad economy would vote in the same people who created that bad economy?
different church-lady
@Davis X. Machina: I’m not at all sure how I came to that conclusion, and perhaps later you’ll clarify my explanation as to how I did.
@NR:
And so they voted for Republicans because they thought republicans were further away from Wall Street?
@AAA Bonds:
Perhaps fair to say their behavior mirrors each other?
@matoko_chan: How to Win Friends and Influence People: ur doin it wrong.
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal:
Now, you see, you’re talking about “Fraud: the legal concept” and they’re talking about “Fraud: the rhetorical concept.” How we gonna have a conversation with this kinda disconnect?
@FlipYrWhig:
The problem is that merely meeting with them is groveling: HULK IS SUPPOSED TO SMASH! Anything else is cozy.
Linnaeus
The meeting itself isn’t all that remarkable; presidents have been doing this kind of thing for years. When you have money and influence, you get the ear of government more than when you have neither.
I would question the timing of the meeting, given that it took place in the wake of an election in which the very same class of people meeting with the president were spending inordinate amounts of money to defeat Democrats and their supposed “anti-business” agenda; “anti-business” of course can be translated as “the second-most pro-capitalist party in the world isn’t sufficient for us.”
Anya
@NR: We’re talking about the people who voted in midterm election, right? Those voters were mostly elderly whites. The midterm election was a gigantic hissy fit by elderly whites who were frightened by the non-stop blame Obama coverage at Fox News. Pray tell, how can Obama change the views of people who are getting their misinformation from the propaganda arm of the Republican Party or who are motivated by racism?
MBunge
@kos: If a solid majority of people who blame Wall Street for our nation’s woes continue to vote heavily Republican, then Democrats will face the same outcome in 2012. Funny how so many commenters here can’t read a simple exit poll.
Here’s the thing. The GOP haven’t done any of the things you want Obama to do. They’ve pretty much done the exact opposite. If they get those votes doing the opposite of what you suggest, how exactly is Obama supposed to attract those voters or change their minds by following your advice? You’re deliberately avoiding the question of WHY those folks voted Republican.
Mike
different church-lady
@kos:
That’s uncomfortably close to the attitude makoto_chan is exhibiting in this thread, especially from someone I respect.
Frankly I couldn’t see what your point was until it was explained at #101.
Swellsman
Can I just take a moment to acknowledge that someone else remembers Marshall’s classic “bitch- slap” theory of politics post? I referenced it in passing a few weeks ago in a diary I wrote up at the Kos, and got tons of shit for being ” nauseatingly sexist.”
I swear, I didn’t think what I wrote had anything to do with sexism, and I certainly am not anti-women. In fact, agree or disagree with my posting, but sexism had nothing to do with what I was writing about.
And yet, the mere use of the phrase “bitch-slap” — for which I gave proper attribution and about which I don’t think anything to do with gender, but instead describes a particularly ugly form of power dynamics — was sufficient to have people demanding that I pull the diary down.
And this is why people who don’t follow politics hate liberals. I mean – sweet Jesus! – I am a liberal and this over sensitivity makes me want to pull my hair out.
Allan
@kos: Given a choice among “Wall Street” “Bush” and “Obama,” a bit more than one third chose Wall Street. And this group, the one you’re highlighting, was most evenly divided as to which party they voted for at 57-41 Republican. “Bush” at 83-15 D and “Obama” at an almost universal 91-6 R were much more definitive predictors of the voter’s party choice than was the group you’re highlighting.
If anything, it suggests to me that holding the opinion that Wall Street was most responsible for our financial crisis is not a majority opinion among the electorate in the first place, and in the second place is not that clear a predictor of someone’s party preference in an election, except that in a Republican-leaning midterm, they leaned a little more Republican than did the electorate at large.
Nick
@NR: :
oh is that way Democrats like Huey Long wanted to oust Roosevelt the next year because he was too much of a “corporatist”
I mean really, learn history, not the firebagger version of it.
Nick
@kos:
and yet, in Washington State for example, when they had the opportunity to raise their taxes, by a 2-1 margin they opted not to.
Things aren’t as black and white as you hope they are.
snarkypsice
@Linnaeus:
But this is the thing about Obama- his tactics don’t always indicate his actual position or the results he will end up with.
Kos’s post about how the GOP were humiliating Obama is a perfect example. He saw it that way because he was focused on tactics – but meantime within a couple of weeks the Repubs were dropping like flies and falling behind Obama and Mitch McConnell was publicly humiliated.
If you see the world in a certain way, meeting with CEOs and being polite about them afterwards means you have lost to them. If you see it the way I see it, it just means you met with some CEOs and were polite about them afterwards.
I got much happier once I learned to ignore the regular netroots freak-outs and wait and see how things panned out down the road. Turns out that most of the time they panned out well – and the few times they didn’t, well I had more energy to spend on being mad about it.
les
@AAA Bonds:
dude, it’s all exciting to froth and yell; the problem was, what the folks you want to arrest were doing, was legal. The states are pursuing lending fraud cases, as they should; and there are rumors of disclosure problems being pursued by SEC. But up the chain, the refucklicans (with a little help from DLC) made sure there could be no regulation.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
to paraphrase Rick James: Obama Derangement Syndrome is a hellva drug.
Wile E. Quixote
@matoko_chan:
“chanese”. What the fuck is “chanese”. Is that what you call your batshit insane gobbledygook? Yeah, I’ll get right on that as soon as I learn how to decode what the crazy homeless guy who I see wandering around Pioneer Square is yelling. Oh, and it’s not an issue of clicking on links on the internet, it’s an issue of doubting that someone with such a piss-poor command of the English language is somehow capable of having any meaningful comprehension of the concepts of IQ or genetics. Seriously, you’re too fucking stupid to speak English or write coherent sentences, so why should anyone assume that you’re smart enough to even comprehend the links that you’re pimping? In short you’re a fucking cudlip, despite your protestations to the contrary.
Davis X. Machina
@different church-lady: I meant to imply — or if makoto_chan is here, infer, because they’re synonyms — that NR wasn’t thinking things through, and you had pointed out as much and I was basically concurring with you.
The ‘Reply’ button is a blunt instrument.
Linnaeus
@snarkypsice:
And that’s a fair observation to make; I myself felt a little better about the tax deal after I took a step back and let things play out more. I’m still not especially happy about it, but I recognize why it was done the way it was done.
I think that Karmakin made an astute point: it seems that actual policy achievements are requiring greater payoffs to those who don’t need them and my own concern is that while the Democrats may show some skill in working within those constraints, they are less skilled in challenging the constraints themselves. Part of that is due to the inherent difficulties of coalition politics; the Democratic coalition, by its very nature, is less disciplined than the Republicans are.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
@snarkypsice: I should add, I saw a couple of the CEOs, after the meeting, in a lengthy interview on the PBS Newshour and they were really constructive and respectful, nothing like a Snidely Whiplash cartoon caricature.
General Stuck
@kos:
Dude, Americans only hate the rich, ie, Wall Street, when times are tough for them. When push comes to shove, when jobs start reappearing, the angst toward Wall Street will begin disappearing. And we can read exit polls, likely better than you. The numbers that tell us the reason why we lost so badly was because the right hated HCR, and convinced a lot of seniors and others to go vote against death panels and such. Democrats overall voted in normal numbers. You folks fixate on one shiny object and pump it to the max for the poutrage effect of ponies not delivered. Here is a clue. Obama maintains rock solid approval numbers at 45 to 50 percent, through all of this, and has record approval numbers amongst dems in general and liberal dems in particular. The problem is the moderate true swing voter indies who soak up the kumbaya of faux bipartisanship. And it is faux that Obama delivers with pretty words and little substance. The GOP hates him for that and the fact he gives them little on the policy front. Get out of that leftist bubble you created, or monster, or whatever the GOS is, and once again become the level headed pragmatic liberal I used to admire.
Wile E. Quixote
@matoko_chan:
No, but I would like to have you forcibly sterilized so that your cudlip genes don’t get propagated. You have the same command of the English language as George W. Bush did, and are roughly as intelligent, despite all of your babbling about IQ. If you can’t master something simple like English then why should anyone assume that you have any comprehension of IQ, genetics or the impact of Julian Assange and Wikileaks.
agrippa
@liberty60:
There are people who are looking for a ‘man on horseback’ who will come in and sort everything and everyone else out. Immediately, and with no prisoners taken.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
Shorter Kos: “I WILL NOT BE IGNORED!”
Kos’ hysterics are an obvious a cry for attention.
And not just for political attention: he’s been banned from appearing on MSNBC (which denied him a prime way to advertise his book) and his blog’s readership has declinced by 50% since December 2008.
Desperation situations prompt desperate acts.
ruemara
@kdaug:
Tons of Tauren. Tonnes, in fact.
Lol
Kos is turning into a blogger version of George Will.
Meet the new Beltway hacks; same as the old.
Linnaeus
I don’t mean to be a smart ass here, but I’ve been at Daily Kos since 2002, and I’ve read a lot of predictions about what Daily Kos is going to turn into, how it’s going to collapse, no one will read it, etc., etc. Yet it’s still with us.
There’s a kind of irony in this latest round of meta wars because the first time this happened at Kos, the “breakaway” groups (most of whom didn’t fully break away) thought that Kos leaned too much to the center-right.
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal
One thing that went wrong was that a lot of people completely misunderstood Obama’s comment that they needed to make him do the things they wanted. They thought that that meant that they needed to yell louder at Obama, rather than yell (and act) at the rest of the world.
In the current environment, making the president your rhetorical point man is not a winning strategy if your goal is to promote lefty causes. Obama actually has been saying a lot of the things people want him to, but it gets lost in the noise and analysis. To some extent, this is the result of being a Democrat and not getting the same treatment from the media, but it isn’t really the approach taken by Bush, to move in the other direction, either.
The president may seem like he has the biggest megaphone around and should perform the rhetorical role. Two things cut against this. The first is that the megaphone isn’t as big as people think, The second is that, even if he does have the biggest megaphone, he is the only one who can be practical and get things done. That’s the job he has that no one else can replace. Other people need to provide the noise.
Sixers
Seems like jobs are Obama’s biggest problem. Would working with business leaders help or hurt job growth? If Obama gave business the middle finger right now would that help or hurt job creation?
Half of this shit from the far left is still about sticking it to people who (rightly so or not) they consider their mortal enemies and not about trying to get shit done. Never trust someone who has ever used the word “rethuglican ” seriously. Its a sports team to them.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
@Linnaeus: problem is his readership is down 50% from 2008 and 24% since December 2009.
to borrow a lefty phrase, Peak Kos was 2008 and it’s been a rapid downhill since then.
Linnaeus
There’s something to this; the intellectual network on the left wing in this country really needs to be built up. Preferably one that’s independent of the Democratic Party and any particular political figure, because that will create the political space necessary to advocate for ideas that the party and elected officials can’t.
@Sixers
By the same token, I have a hard time taking seriously the label “far left” that’s showing up on some of the liberal blogs these days. One doesn’t have to like what some folks on the left are saying, but the successive lowering of the bar as to what constitutes “far left” just helps to further entrench right-wing frames.
agrippa
There is a lot of truth in what you wrote, sixers
Linnaeus
@Mike Kay
I’m not surprised, though I’ll confess I didn’t know the actual percentages; it’s still a blog tied to electoral cycles. I’d like to see that change, and maybe DK4 will facilitate that.
NobodySpecial
@Linnaeus: Or that he was just a hateful being, if ya remember the My Left Wing/Booman split from Kos. Of course, like I suspect of most of the membership here, seperately they were wonderful people when I met them, but put them together in a room and Oy!
Linnaeus
@NobodySpecial:
Oh yeah, I do remember that split. IMHO, that one was much uglier on a personal level than the most recent one.
Another irony that just occurred to me is that we’re discussing this on the blog home of someone who didn’t like Kos back in those days either, but for very different reasons. Not that I complain about the change at all.
Dorothy Rissman
@RoryBellows: Insightful comment. Thank you.
Nick
@Linnaeus:
it’s readership has dropped significantly in the last year.
valdivia
I had to run out and missed all the fun I unleashed with makoto. Sorry fellow juicers!
And just FTR, when enticed by an interesting argument, here, most of the time, I read links, when it all seems a crazy personal jargon, why bother?
FlipYrWhig
Ya know, fuck it already. I have tried repeatedly to explain to Markos and his defenders why his hobbyhorse is a mess, that “meeting” with “business leaders” is not self-evidently “groveling” to “Wall Street,” and that plenty of people in the general public who hate “Wall Street” do not see “Wall Street” and business/corporate power in general as the same thing. It is in fact probably a widely-held opinion that Obama is both too close to Wall Street _and_ anti-business, i.e., that the only kinds of businesses he seems to care about are banks. Meeting with executives of businesses that are not banks might not be a bad idea for managing that view, no?
So Markos came over here, listened not at all, acknowledged this kind of not-very-hard point not at all, and continued to lodge the same complaint only more loudly. Sad. Even Greenwald tries harder than that. Hell, even _Armando/BTD_ tries harder than that.
matoko_chan
@Mnemosyne: well RIGHT NAOW we are repeating the EXACT SAME MISTAKES that america made after 911.
and if you read my linkage you might be able to UNNERSTAND WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT.
matoko_chan
@different church-lady:
oh plz.
i srsly dont give a shit if ANY OF YOU DECREPIT OLD TWODIGIT CUDLIPS read meh.
just dont whine about my “incoherence” or lack of combox etiquette when you dont/wont/cant click the link.
Allan
@FlipYrWhig: He’s no Peter Daou, that’s for sure.
Mike Kay (Democrat of the Century)
@Allan: does Peter ever stop by this blog?
poor peter, PTSD is a bitch.
matoko_chan
@Wile E. Quixote: that relly bugs u doesnt it?
nothing quite gets a rise out of u old ppl like impugning your (lack of) intellectual substrate.
;)
matoko_chan
@kos: wallah, of COURSE they will change.
because of the demographic timer, base-die off of the greys, Salam-Douthat stratification and HCR effect…not to mention the absolute lack of a plausible GOP presidential candidate.
but your prediction is baseless.
im curious as to why you are making it?
trying to lather up the base?
matoko_chan
@valdivia: yes…. you just go back to chewing your cud and lowing about how im crazy, ignoring my bewildered outrage over why you are all more interested in my combox etiquette than Assanges system killer.
i have to assume that is because combox etiquette is all your feeble cowbrain can articulate.
meanwhile Assange just junk-punched the powerless hyperpower in exactly the same way as OBL junk-punched America a decade ago.
and because of cudlips like you, i suspect it will turn out just the same.
Allan
@matoko_chan: We’re not going to read about you shooting up your high school in Colorado while dressed up as your favorite Matrix character, are we?
different church-lady
@matoko_chan: but tell me: just what is it about pie that thrills you so?
Valdivia
Moo.
That is all. :p
THE
@matoko_chan:
Not really matoko. You exaggerate.
Like a lot of people brought up on advertising,
but lacking in critical thinking skills,
you have a tendency to take self-promotion as fact.
(EDIT: I believe that) there are heaps of holes in Assange’s analysis,
but you lack the analytical to dissect them out.
If you ask me, Assange has made a major blunder releasing so much low-level stuff
that is of little real harm to the USA.
That is why I keep talking about collateral damage.
That’s where his real impact has been.
But what he has done, is warn the security services that their current trajectory is seriously vulnerable.
So over the next few years they will tighten up security and greatly reduce the risk of harm in the future.
One thing that is essential IMHO, is that governments have to understand that diplomatic secrets are more important than terrorist-related stuff.
This is because the harm that can flow from wars between nations is orders-of-magnitude worse than any likely, sub-state terrorist attack.
So the State Dept data-stream must not be compromised.
Preventing war between major powers is a far-more critical function than preventing terror.
The thing that haunts my generation is the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Up till now, this was when the world came closest to an all-out thermonuclear war between superpowers.
Billions of people could have died if the diplomats hadn’t defused the crisis.
We would all have died. Matoko. You would never have been born.
Compared to this danger, even the worst-likely terrorist attacks are fleabites.
State Dept data must be secured at all costs.
State is far more critical to national survival than DHS.
LikeableInMyOwnWay
@kos:
Idiotic comment.
The numbers that determine how many terms Obama will get are all about employment, and everyone knows it.
Also too, why THE FUCK should a president not meet with every legitimate interest group in the country, hear their views, and pitch his own to them? Why, and why would any sentient citizen want him to do otherwise? And if business leaders are not a legitimate interest group in a time where unemployment is being felt as the number one concern in the country then who the fuck is? Who? Why would he not meet with them?
I’ll tell you why. Because blog whores are no different from media whores, who know that tension and conflict sell papers, attract viewers, and pump up the page views. That’s why, and everybody knows that too.
You are full of shit.
Morat20
makato_chan is a badly performing bot.
This was established elsewhere. It basically culls from a handful of geek-oriented writers and ideas, probably a large database of trolled forum posts, and responds via keyword.
Doubt me? Come on — who here thinks makato could pass a Turing test?
agrippa
@kos:
First termer? You cannot know that. And, you know it.
You are hyperventilating.
Mrs. Polly
@kos:
but it always does, which you of all people should know.
What’s happened to your site is sad. We’ve watched it become PUMA 2.0, with obviously faked diary that fits the current narrative zooming to the top of the rec list, and drama queens all around pouring into the blogoshpere to protest what thy don’t know but assume.
Here’s a headline for you: OBAMA REFUSES TO MEET WITH CEOs.
How silly. Cue the President doesn’t understand need for jobs/hostile to business op-eds from 75% of the country while firebaggers refuse to give credit, having lost their own credibility by demonstrating that nothing he does pleases them anyway.
And have you any idea what went on at the meeting before bitching about it? No. Ridiculous. You assume apology because that is part of the narrative you’ve embraced now.This reminds me of the last pretty toy the Netroots HAD to have, tantrummed nonstop till it got, and promptly ignored: Elizabeth Warren. Good for traffic, though, wasn’t it!
amk
@RoryBellows: Good point about electing legislators to the WH. When was the last time a senator was elected to WH ? JFK ? If yes, that’s really a loooong time ago.
ellid
The Obama-bashing on DKos is so bad that I’m convinced that the fan poodles *want* a Republican victory in 2012, despite the very real possibility that the Republican president would get to appoint the next one or two Supreme Court justices (Ginsburg may not last till 2012, let alone 2016, and neither Scalia nor Thomas is young). Anyone who thinks that the Roberts Court will let Roe v. Wade, Griswold v. Connecticut, Miranda v. Arizona, the prayer in schools cases, or Lawrence v. Texas stand without significant alteration is delusional, and anyone who thinks that President Palin/Romney/Pawlenty/Santorum/Thune/Huckabee *won’t* appoint justices who will do just that is even worse.
If a Republican wins in 2012, and DKos starts complaining, I plan to post a diary with the title “Why are you complaining? You got what you wanted!” It’ll get me banned, but man it’ll feel good.
AxelFoley
@Cat Lady:
This last sentence alone makes your post the greatest post I’ve ever seen at Balloon Juice during my short time here.
Well stated, milady.
AxelFoley
@Linda Featheringill:
Hmm, sounds like the call for “A More Perfect Union”, Ver. 2.0.
Christin
@kos:
Ugh. It’s bad enough inflammatory, stupid comments like this are on Daily Kos. Now Kos has to stink up BJ too? Christ – clean up your own house.
sdhays
I think that the distinction I’d make is that I’m pretty comfortable with the President showing respect to world leaders, secure in the knowledge that he doesn’t take orders from them and he’s simply being respectful. When it comes to CEO’s on the other hand, the way our society obsesses about how great and wonderful they are and the great power they are given, I get nervous when I see the President bowing to that power. That said, if he can get stuff out of them, then that discomfort is perhaps justified.
Christin
@Brian S (formerly Incertus):
Markos says something inflammatory and substance free. And snow is white.
Next up he’ll be promoting DK4.
Triscula
@NR:
Hmm? So are you suggesting that the Republicans ARE working for The people? You seem to be insisting that the people will support politicians who demonstrate that they’re working in the interest of the people. Last November’s election certainly doesn’t support that conclusion.
AxelFoley
@Christin:
Just a matter of time.
Christin, did you used to post a DK? I lurk there because, even with my complaints about many of the posters there, there is a lot of good information there from those that are not crazy, and if you are who I think you are, I remember your sig line about what your mom thought about you changing your hair color. Lol
Christian
Ah, the former Republican Kos steps in with one of his twitter level insights.
This from the pragmatic hypocrite who demands the Left spit on all who “compromise” while he plants Right-Wing ads all over his site and then defends it as “there ain’t nothing I can do.” Way to practice your preaching!
Kos and his site did in fact jump the shark this year and along with another former Repub turned Rabid Media Progressive, anything this petulant creep says should be fairly ignored.
Kos and the other blogosphere brains have revealed the fundamental infantilism of the Pro Left. And since Kos thinks a genuine progressive like Kucinich is “Ugh” — it’s hard to take the former Reagan-lover seriously. Except when it coms to making money.
redactor
It would matter a lot less if it weren’t superimposed on gratuitous hippy punching.