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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Teh google

Teh google

by DougJ|  January 30, 201111:50 am| 104 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads

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I firmly believe that part of the reason older people are more likely to vote Republican is that they are unable to use the internet to obtain reliable information. Furthermore, when I speak with people in their 20s, I generally find that they are generally much better-informed on political matters than I was when I was their age. I also chalk this up to the internet (though it could just be that they watch less tv news).

But today one of my undergraduate students, an A student at that, asked me where he could find the tool Wolfram Alpha (which I recommended they use to get a feeling for level surfaces in R^3) online. I gave him the link and told him that with any computational tool, you can type the name of the tool into google, along with a word like “computation” or “math”, and it will come up as the first link.

Don’t kids know this already?

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104Comments

  1. 1.

    Amanda in the South Bay

    January 30, 2011 at 11:55 am

    Hmm…maybe, but math majors !=computer science majors.

    I know a few people who majored in math, are young, and not at all into computing, at least as far as its required for their math degree.

  2. 2.

    ppcli

    January 30, 2011 at 12:00 pm

    @Amanda in the South Bay:
    Yep. Math major here, and the only computer science courses I could stand were the theoretical ones. (I did love me that Cook’s Theorem.) ‘Course, that was in the days when programs were submitted with punchcards…

  3. 3.

    BGinCHI

    January 30, 2011 at 12:01 pm

    My students surprise me like this too. I think it’s often because they are too busy to take the next step, or they’ve searched and gotten junk they couldn’t use. That’s a result of bad searching, but also in the Humanities it’s maybe a bit harder to winnow down info (you put Shakespeare in with other stuff and you still get loads of crap).

    What also kills me is when people ask in comments here where they could find something that would have been a very simple Google. I always wonder if that’s not just a cry for help.

  4. 4.

    Gregory

    January 30, 2011 at 12:01 pm

    I firmly believe that part of the reason older people are more likely to vote Republican is that they are unable to use the internet to obtain reliable information.

    Or unwilling.

  5. 5.

    Bijan Parsia

    January 30, 2011 at 12:02 pm

    Trust me; getting computer science students to know to and when to Google is pretty damn hard.

  6. 6.

    JPL

    January 30, 2011 at 12:02 pm

    I firmly believe that part of the reason older people are more likely to vote Republican is that they are unable to use the internet to obtain reliable information.

    define old…do you mean old white people who watch fox news?

  7. 7.

    BGinCHI

    January 30, 2011 at 12:03 pm

    @Amanda in the South Bay: Amanda, check out the Benen link two threads back (pertains to what we were talking about yesterday).

  8. 8.

    sb

    January 30, 2011 at 12:04 pm

    “Don’t kids know this already?”

    I’m not sure but then again my kids know that when they ask me a question, I won’t use it on a blog as an example of how ill-informed they are.

  9. 9.

    WarMunchkin

    January 30, 2011 at 12:05 pm

    It’s likely that person just had a brain fart or something. I’d think that most physics or math students know that Wolfram is the company that produces Mathematica, and can infer that Alpha is just another thing that wolfram does. But anyway, “Wolfram Alpha” gives the correct link in google, first hit.

  10. 10.

    JGabriel

    January 30, 2011 at 12:05 pm

    But today one of my undergraduate students, an A student at that, asked me where he could find the tool Wolfram Alpha (which I recommended they use to get a feeling for level surfaces in R^3) online. I gave him the link and told him that with any computational tool, you can type the name of the tool into google, along with a word like “computation” or “math”, and it will come up as the first link.
    __
    Don’t kids know this already?

    They’re undergrads, dude. They’re their to learn that from you. Seriously, though, the experiences you’ve learned from can still be very spotty and uneven at that age — you might, for instance, know all about the production of rice in China, but not know how to cook it.

    .

    .

  11. 11.

    A Writer At Balloon-Juice

    January 30, 2011 at 12:05 pm

    @Amanda in the South Bay:

    Typing things into google does not require computer science training.

  12. 12.

    Knocienz

    January 30, 2011 at 12:05 pm

    Our general response to such questions at work is to email them a ‘let me google that for you’ link.

    For example

    People get the point quickly

  13. 13.

    A Writer At Balloon-Juice

    January 30, 2011 at 12:07 pm

    @sb:

    Meow!

  14. 14.

    MikeJ

    January 30, 2011 at 12:07 pm

    For a while kids were picking up all the neato new gee whiz computing stuff. Now it’s all just commodity, everybody wants everything prepackaged, and the next kids are reverting to dumbness.

  15. 15.

    A Writer At Balloon-Juice

    January 30, 2011 at 12:09 pm

    @JGabriel:

    So it is a good idea to tell them all the time to just google stuff? I feel condescending doing that, because I assumed they already knew.

  16. 16.

    JMS

    January 30, 2011 at 12:11 pm

    Yes, you can find almost anything with teh google. But I have another suggestion. Sometimes it’s just human nature to ask other humans for information, not a computer. Really. Humans used to talk to each other, in person, at some point in time, too.

  17. 17.

    gnomedad

    January 30, 2011 at 12:11 pm

    As a techie old fart, I fear being overrun by the young, but for a surprising fraction, “tech-savvy” means “good at typing with your thumbs”.

  18. 18.

    Violet

    January 30, 2011 at 12:12 pm

    I find people of all ages ask questions of others that are very easily answered by a quick internet search. I think we as humans must add value to responses coming from actual people or something. Perhaps your student wanted to be sure he had the right program, or was getting it from the best source, or, wanted to make sure he wasn’t missing a deal on it (if there’s a price). There’s a lot of crap out there on the interwebs. A good student who is concerned about their grades may just want to be sure they’ve got the right info, so they come to you, their instructor, to make sure they’re doing the right thing.

  19. 19.

    A Writer At Balloon-Juice

    January 30, 2011 at 12:17 pm

    @Violet:

    I had already talked with him about this and recommended Wolfram Alpha as an internet tool. Also, it has no effect on their grade, it’s just for intuition.

  20. 20.

    Dave

    January 30, 2011 at 12:17 pm

    Kids know how to use Facebook, not computers.

  21. 21.

    Amanda in the South Bay

    January 30, 2011 at 12:18 pm

    @A Writer At Balloon-Juice:

    Well, there’s certainly a bit of assuming on many people’s parts that being a math major means, well, its not as if CS and Math are totally different subjects. And people assume CS majors know *everything* about computers. I mean, its not as if you were making fun of someone who was an english major, for crying out loud.

  22. 22.

    MonkeyBoy

    January 30, 2011 at 12:19 pm

    Often in online discussions someone will ask a question where the answer can be found as the first result returned by Google. This can lead to snarky replies like this for Wolfram Alpha – some sites actually ban such responses.

    What one needs to realize is that questions can serve 2 functions:

    1) The person asking the question needs the information.

    2) The person asking wants to engage in social interaction. Asking someone a question flatters them by implying the askee is better (more knowledgeable) than the asker. Normal rules of face-to-face conversation are that in general a question should be answered.

    So in some cases the asking of a question may just involve sucking to someone so they will talk to you and remember you.

    I remember from years ago some advice I heard about interacting with a socially superior or famous person – ask them for advice because they will be flattered even if you are not interested in what they have to say.

  23. 23.

    WarMunchkin

    January 30, 2011 at 12:20 pm

    edit: meh, this comment was too snappy, I revoke it.

  24. 24.

    trizzlor

    January 30, 2011 at 12:20 pm

    Perhaps he thought the Alpha needed to be written in Greek?

  25. 25.

    SFAW

    January 30, 2011 at 12:22 pm

    Google? What’s that? Is that something on Teh Intertoobz?

  26. 26.

    sb

    January 30, 2011 at 12:24 pm

    @A Writer At Balloon-Juice: Well put.

    You know, every now and again, I make an asshole comment. I should have hit delete and didn’t.

    Here in L.A., shitting on teachers is treated as sport. That makes me incredibly defensive, overly sensitive and prone to make asshole comments. But listen to me ramble. Please carry on and ignore the ranting teacher in the corner. He’ll be fine, just keep him away from sharp objects.

  27. 27.

    morzer

    January 30, 2011 at 12:24 pm

    @A Writer At Balloon-Juice:

    So this google thingummy, you wash dishes with it, right? Or is it that nice little thing that cuts the lawn for you?

  28. 28.

    PeakVT

    January 30, 2011 at 12:24 pm

    Inability or unwillingness to use the internet is part of the problem. But getting spoon-fed by Faux is also just a heck of lot easier. Why wrestle with the internet when Faux is so comprehensive (or appears to be to the uniformed)?

  29. 29.

    cathyx

    January 30, 2011 at 12:25 pm

    @MonkeyBoy: Now and then my daughter (12 yrs old) would ask me a question that either I know she knows the answer or the answer is obvious. I took it to mean that she just wants to connect and that’s the only way she knew to do it.

  30. 30.

    SFAW

    January 30, 2011 at 12:28 pm

    See, the problem here is what “A Writer at Balloon-Juice” left out of the story. Specifically that s/he only teaches Amish kids, who of course have no idea about kompyuterz, never mind google.

    Because, frankly, any non-Amish, sentient, mildly computer-literate (i.e. knows how to use a keyboard) college student should not be in the dark about Google. If they are, then they’re either not-fully-functioning, or they’ve been living in a cave for 10 years.

  31. 31.

    Violet

    January 30, 2011 at 12:31 pm

    @A Writer At Balloon-Juice:
    Then like MonkeyBoy said, he just wants to connect with you for some other reason. Flattery, being remembered when it comes to recommendation time, hoping you’ll drop a useful tidbit, hoping for a job, etc. etc.

    There’s the stated question and then there’s the actual reason for asking the question. These things are not always even remotely the same thing.

  32. 32.

    ppcli

    January 30, 2011 at 12:33 pm

    @ppcli:
    Though now that I think of it, supporting The writer formerly known as DougJ, it is true that I would think most math majors today would be as lost as I would be without the ability to type “How do you [blah blah] with LaTeX” into Google.

  33. 33.

    morzer

    January 30, 2011 at 12:36 pm

    All else aside, I hope DougJ is talking about Wolfram Alpha with his tungsten firmly in his cheek.

  34. 34.

    Origuy

    January 30, 2011 at 12:38 pm

    I’d never heard of Wolfram Alpha, so I Googled it. Before I did, I thought it might be a software package that had to be downloaded. Perhaps he thought that he’d have to pay for it, and wanted to know where he could get it for free.

  35. 35.

    HRA

    January 30, 2011 at 12:39 pm

    Why do you assume old people vote Republican due to not using the internet? I would have said old people who vote Republican possibly are either under educated or not well educated.

    In my work environment there are excellent reasons to ask questions regarding the technology in use for our database. First and foremost none of us were given any tutoring on the new system as it would pertain to our daily work on it (99.9%) Then there is the instruction sheet material that could be cut down to a fourth of it’s size and the lack of passing along any updates being installed.
    Btw, I work with students, too. I am glad they ask questions and am happy to respond to them.

  36. 36.

    SBJules

    January 30, 2011 at 12:40 pm

    I’m old. I’ve been using the internets since…1991 for my income tax preparation. I think I got an aol account around 1994 or 5.I am into genealogist and there are a ton of I genealogists who are completely computer savvy. I cannot account for those who vote against their best interests. How do you account for the log cabin republicans?

  37. 37.

    Mike M

    January 30, 2011 at 12:42 pm

    It is in the nature of things that most people become more conservative as they grow older. It has nothing to do with how often you use Google or access the Internet. Whatever your point of view, you can find support for it on the Internet, and people tend to like reading people who agree with them.

  38. 38.

    Josie

    January 30, 2011 at 12:43 pm

    Maybe the students need a lesson on how to search, with such points as how to decide on the combination of terms to find what you want, how to judge a source, and how to do advanced searches. The fact that they know about Google doesn’t mean that they actually understand the scheme of a good search.

  39. 39.

    Amanda in the South Bay

    January 30, 2011 at 12:43 pm

    @ppcli:

    the same sentiment could probably apply to lots of science/engineering majors.

  40. 40.

    Zifnab

    January 30, 2011 at 12:43 pm

    Don’t kids know this already?

    Some do. Some don’t. Google doesn’t really come with a great instruction manual. You kinda learn what you can guess at or what people point you towards.

  41. 41.

    morzer

    January 30, 2011 at 12:44 pm

    @Josie:

    It’s surprising how many students lack these skills, and are also incapable of navigating through a library system.

  42. 42.

    gene108

    January 30, 2011 at 12:44 pm

    What do you guys think kids use google for? Searching for math tools or something more stimulating like porn or free video games?

    I’m guessing porn and video games is probably more common than looking for math tools.

  43. 43.

    Xboxershorts

    January 30, 2011 at 12:48 pm

    In the future, give them this:

    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=google.com

  44. 44.

    Josie

    January 30, 2011 at 12:48 pm

    @morzer: I spent 30 years as a junior high librarian and worked with students constantly on these skills. They can be taught quite a bit, but I have a theory that you need a certain level of intellectual maturity to think in the abstract terms necessary to searching effectively.

  45. 45.

    NobodySpecial

    January 30, 2011 at 12:48 pm

    Got into a bit of a discussion with a friend of mine from Lebanon who was insistent that Nasser was the guy who liberated the Sinai from the Israelis. He had his smartphone, though, and as soon as I could get him to Wikipedia and a couple links after that, realized he was thinking of the Suez incident and I was right about Sadat. Can’t imagine doing that with an older American.

  46. 46.

    morzer

    January 30, 2011 at 12:49 pm

    @Josie:

    Actually, I’ve found a surprisingly high number of college students lack research skills, and I tend to put it down to a basic incuriosity about the world. They do what they are told, and in the way in which they were shown how to do it. No more, no less.

  47. 47.

    Catsy

    January 30, 2011 at 12:50 pm

    Trust me; getting computer science students to know to and when to Google is pretty damn hard.

    This. I work at a major ecom site, with people who’ve been working in IT operations for years, and you would just be stunned at the number of times I’ve had to give out LMGTFY links. Although I reserve those for the truly boneheaded questions–sometimes it really is more straightforward and reliable to get a quick answer from someone else who knows rather than go through the uncertainty and multiple-source validation of a Google search.

    I think the critical skill that most people–whether IT employees or your grandmother–still lack is the ability to identify relevant keywords just from knowing what they want to find.

    That’s not to say that you can’t find a ton of information with plain English sentences that start with interrogatives–for instance, “how many glyphs are on a stargate” or “why do cats purr”–but there is an art to paring down your searches to relevant keywords, and it helps to have a large vocabulary and know the correct terms for things. A low-information voter isn’t going to search for something like “what’s the difference between shi’a and sunni islam” if they can’t even name those two sects.

    But really, the biggest step is making the mental switch necessary to think “I should Google this” in response to information you don’t have, and not being intimidated by the wall of crap that often results.

  48. 48.

    SFAW

    January 30, 2011 at 12:51 pm

    What do you guys think kids use google for? Searching for math tools or something more stimulating like porn or free video games?

    It’s not a question of for what they are searching, but whether they know about Google and whether they are able to figure out what the “Google Search” button does. Maybe they figure it’s like “Hulk Smash”. Or maybe they figure the site is calling them “Google”, and telling them to search, but isn’t telling them how to search.

  49. 49.

    Josie

    January 30, 2011 at 12:51 pm

    @morzer: That’s really sad. My brother found similar responses in his community college students. The only ones who went beyond were the high school students taking college courses early.

  50. 50.

    morzer

    January 30, 2011 at 12:55 pm

    @Catsy:

    Also, paring down to the more specific terms that filter out the ocean of junk that’s out there. Not that this will always save you. I once tried searched for the Great Mother, and got links to some quite bizarre fetish sites.

  51. 51.

    morzer

    January 30, 2011 at 12:56 pm

    @Josie:

    My experience, sad to say, was with Harvard and Yale students.

    *blushes*

  52. 52.

    Xboxershorts

    January 30, 2011 at 12:58 pm

    I firmly believe that part of the reason older people are more likely to vote Republican is that they are unable to use the internet to obtain reliable information.

    I’d like that definition of “older” also, too. I’m 51, been in “IT” for 30 years now. I teach 20 somethings how to spell BGP every day of my life.

  53. 53.

    Cain

    January 30, 2011 at 1:00 pm

    It’s because of reddit and digg man.. political commentary with a shitload of snark. I love reddit.

    cain

  54. 54.

    alwhite

    January 30, 2011 at 1:01 pm

    Just turned 59 & I still have to harp on my college age kids about how to use google. It ain’t that hard & it ain’t just us boomers that cain’t.

    I think the real reason is old people have a lot more fear – fear of poverty, fear of ‘other’ fear of crime. The Rs do a really good job of playing to those fears.

  55. 55.

    Sly

    January 30, 2011 at 1:04 pm

    Don’t kids know this already?

    Possibly. Students often operate under dozens of unknown variables, and their instructors are either unaware of those variables or have been working in their field long enough that they take them for granted.

    Is this software difficult to find? Does it cost money? Can I find a free version if it does? If it doesn’t, am I being assessed for finding it? If not, wouldn’t it just be easier to ask the professor where to find it? If the professor isn’t grading me on this, will he think I’m a dumbshit for asking anyway? Does his perception of me matter in terms of my grade? Should I care if it does?

    I generally prefer explicit instruction with pretty much everything. Yes, it is hand-holding. They’re learning. That’s when their hand is supposed to be held.

  56. 56.

    Another Commenter at Balloon Juice (fka Bella Q)

    January 30, 2011 at 1:06 pm

    @PeakVT: I found this to be a pretty tragicomic set of anecdotal data.

  57. 57.

    Roy G

    January 30, 2011 at 1:06 pm

    Since we’re being pedantic here, shouldn’t students be taught that ‘to google’ is really ‘to search,’ and is more than just that big company down in the valley? As someone who teaches digital design to undergraduates, I may use popularized verbs like ‘google’ and ‘photoshopped,’ but I also take care to teach students about the underlying activity, and that understanding what you are doing is more important than the name brand tool being used.

    Perhaps it’s because i’m in the Bay area, but I think teh kids can understand the difference between Google and google, but only if they are taught the difference. Just because they are early adopters doesn’t mean that they inherently know what they are doing.

  58. 58.

    Olivia

    January 30, 2011 at 1:07 pm

    Being able to Google for an answer doesn’t mean you have the ability to sort out the many hundreds of answers, many of them in opposition to each other. Some people just get more confused by all the answers. It takes a very intellectually curious person to step away from their own prejudices and look at the other side. Most of the time people just Google stuff to reinforce what they already believe. Critical thinking doesn’t seem to be a common ability.
    Also, I think, young or old, sometimes people are just lazy. In my work area a good share of technical issues can be solved by turning off and on the problem piece of equipment. I constantly tell people that they should use that solution before they ask me to fix the issue and they never do. It’s the same as telling them to Google the answer to a question, they just want me to find the answer for them. It’s just stupid laziness.

  59. 59.

    Corner Stone

    January 30, 2011 at 1:15 pm

    God damn DougJ, this is disappointing. Your student wanted you to give him the time of day, not the answer to some stupid fucking search question.
    Are you really this dense/clueless with your students? I feel bad for them.

  60. 60.

    RossInDetroit

    January 30, 2011 at 1:16 pm

    I was building hobby computers at age 16, in the ’70s before becoming a mainframer. So get yer Keds off my fescue.

    Where would we be without Google?

    More importantly, and what we should be asking each other, where ARE we WITH Google. It’s not air or DNA. It’s a product that we take for granted. Rather than accepting what it does and ‘knows’ we should understand what assumptions come along with it.

  61. 61.

    Stillwater

    January 30, 2011 at 1:22 pm

    @JMS: Humans used to talk to each other, in person, at some point in time, too.

    I just searched for more information on this interesting hypothesis, and apparently you are right. Who were these alien creatures? Are we Google-users somehow descended from them?

  62. 62.

    James

    January 30, 2011 at 1:26 pm

    I hate Google and what they have become…any try http://www.ExplorePro.com yet?

  63. 63.

    Biscuits

    January 30, 2011 at 1:26 pm

    i haven’t read all comments so perhaps someone has already said some version of this. Teaching is a “helping” profession, no? I understand the frustration that comes with having to address the seemingly obvious ( I have three teenagers…help!). But perhaps to err on the side of kindness and encouragement is the best option here. They can teach us oldsters a thing or two as well.

  64. 64.

    PeakVT

    January 30, 2011 at 1:27 pm

    @Another Commenter at Balloon Juice (fka Bella Q): Sounds about right. My grandparents passed away before Faux really came into its own, but they would frequently have the TV on for much of the day. The content was a little less harmful, though: The Price is Right, Oprah, People’s Court, soaps, etc.

  65. 65.

    jwalden91lx

    January 30, 2011 at 1:27 pm

    I just found out about Wolfram Alpha from my Math teacher a few weeks ago when the semester started. As far as the ability to use this stuff, no – the ways to search for things isn’t really taught in school. I think students may know that there is a Google, or Wolfram Alpha, but they have no idea what to do with it because it’s assumed (wrongly) that once you know it’s there, you’ll know what it’s for and how to use it.

  66. 66.

    scarshapedstar

    January 30, 2011 at 1:35 pm

    I think he was looking for Mathematica, and the correct response is ‘pirate bay, noob.’

  67. 67.

    scarshapedstar

    January 30, 2011 at 1:44 pm

    To clarify, Mathematica is an excellent calculation/plotting program, and it powers the math features of WolframAlpha. It’s easier to use.

    The student clearly thought that WolframAlpha was a standalone piece of software as opposed to a search engine. C’mon, Doug, don’t you know nothin’?

  68. 68.

    tesslibrarian

    January 30, 2011 at 1:45 pm

    @morzer: We get kids from the smaller colleges in the area at the public library looking for research help. On occasion, we get an undergrad or, sadly, a grad student, at the local giant state university who come to the public library because the parking is easier.

    All of them come to the reference desk asking for “a book, not internet sources.” They completely do not understand how online peer-reviewed journals accessible through databases paid for by the state university system are different than a random web page that comes up in Google.

    It’s not the fault of the university librarians, because goodness knows they bust their fannies trying to get these kids, from orientation day onward, to come in to be trained to access information. But most professors don’t want their classtime devoted to how to research the subject they’re teaching, and most students think if it’s on the screen, it’s the Internet, and that they already understand that completely.

    Those are the evenings I come home feeling like the nation is doomed.

  69. 69.

    John J

    January 30, 2011 at 1:48 pm

    Your belief about “older people” is wrong.

    I live in an “active adult” community with people from their mid-50’s to late 80’s. Everyone I know under 75 uses a computer, yet most are Fox News watching Republicans.

    Access to information has little to do with why they vote against their interests and those of their children and grandchildren.

  70. 70.

    Jules

    January 30, 2011 at 1:51 pm

    “Wolfram Alpha” always makes me think of Wolfram & Hart the law firm in Angel.

    Using Google is easy…using Google to research properly can be daunting. There is so much out there AND depending on the word combination you may never find what you are actually looking for.

    I want to look up information about specific Dior lines from the 50’s.
    So I can put in Dior or vintage Dior, but that gives me tons of hits on things for sale. If I put Dior=life in as my search it gives me a more narrow, and useful, search in both information and images.

    BUT even though I can do that I know that I am still not using google to my best advantage because there are ways to bring up old newspaper mentions and such but I can’t figure it out. Maybe folks who find more data are ones using search engines I can’t use….like the one research librarians use.

  71. 71.

    Amanda in the South Bay

    January 30, 2011 at 1:54 pm

    @NobodySpecial-
    I’m surprised that someone from the region is ignorant of modern Middle Eastern history. If that had been an American, I’m sure everyone would’ve guffawed and started to mock Americans for their lack of Middle Eastern historical knowledge.

  72. 72.

    Corner Stone

    January 30, 2011 at 1:59 pm

    @Jules: Ah, Wolf, Ram & Hart.
    I enjoyed Angel right up til the cheesy end.
    So sue me.

  73. 73.

    Yutsano

    January 30, 2011 at 2:05 pm

    Fucking Interwebs! How do they work?

  74. 74.

    PurpleGirl

    January 30, 2011 at 2:19 pm

    @Knocienz: Love it.

    At my last job, I was always telling people “Teh Google is your friend.”

    I took a “class” at a library about how to use Google and learned about tricks you can use that aren’t self-evident.

  75. 75.

    gbear

    January 30, 2011 at 2:31 pm

    @Biscuits:

    Teaching is a “helping” profession, no? I understand the frustration that comes with having to address the seemingly obvious ( I have three teenagers…help!). But perhaps to err on the side of kindness and encouragement is the best option here.

    I’m agreeing with you. Too many of the comments here sound like they come from “get off my office” McCrankypants. Given the amount of time everyone wastes on this blog, what would it hurt anyone to spend some of that time interacting with someone who’s asking for help with a problem. Internet access is not a universal so background knowledge can vary. Not everyone wants to live with their face glued to a screen.

  76. 76.

    MattF

    January 30, 2011 at 2:53 pm

    I’ve found that being good at ‘search’ is a distinct talent, quite separate from, e.g., ‘being able to visualize algebraic surfaces’ or ‘recognizing a set of linear equations when you see one.’ Google and Wikipedia can be useful, but you need to have a working search circuit in your head before they really become part of your brain.

  77. 77.

    Corner Stone

    January 30, 2011 at 3:05 pm

    @MattF: Being able to “search” and actually “research” are distinct skills.
    Not everyone can shift between them.
    I agree with your thesis otherwise.

  78. 78.

    Barry

    January 30, 2011 at 3:06 pm

    Adding on – I’ve been frequently frustrated by Google when looking for more advanced Excel functions and techniques. The vast number of Excel How to Do It 101 sites swamp even Google’s algorithms. There are times when a reasonable Google search doesn’t work well.

  79. 79.

    bryan

    January 30, 2011 at 3:08 pm

    r math brings up a lot of pages about R but it does not give you http://www.r-project.org as the first link

    J math and J computation does not give you http://www.jsoftware.com as the first link. Not even on the first page…

  80. 80.

    Pb

    January 30, 2011 at 3:13 pm

    Teh Google: it’s only the #1 site on the interwebs, why would he think to look there first…. on the plus side, if he can’t find Wolfram Alpha on the ‘net, there’s no way he’ll find this blog post about it…

    @bryan: no, but R statistics does…

  81. 81.

    Catsy

    January 30, 2011 at 3:14 pm

    @Barry: Searching for IT-related topics gets a lot easier–and less frustrating–once you filter out link-whoring sites like Experts Exchange. Given the degree to which those sites clog up useful search results, I just can’t comprehend why Google hasn’t implemented some kind of per-user, cookie-based persistent blacklist. There are Greasemonkey scripts that’ll do it–and I love them–but it’d be nice to have that functionality be browser-independent.

    (Yes, I know I can do things like –site:experts-exchange.com, but it’s ridiculous to have to do that for every known spamdexer every time you search.)

    ETA: FYWP.

  82. 82.

    Joe Buck

    January 30, 2011 at 3:16 pm

    What is this “A Writer at Balloon Juice” stuff? Are you guys having a byline strike or something? If it’s someone who doesn’t want to publicly reveal his/her name, at least pick an interesting pseudonym.

  83. 83.

    salacious crumb

    January 30, 2011 at 3:20 pm

    old people in America vote Republican because their brains have turned to mush from drinking decades of corn syrup and corn fed beef. We had liberals well before the internet who fought for justice and generally fought for what was right. When there is a desire to find information you will find it, internet or no. And look at the ones who do have internet,all they do is log on a million time a day on sites on like Atlas Shrugged or Foxnews.com

  84. 84.

    MonkeyBoy

    January 30, 2011 at 3:41 pm

    @Joe Buck:

    What is this “A Writer at Balloon Juice” stuff?

    This link explains things.

    [hee, hee]

  85. 85.

    Knocienz

    January 30, 2011 at 4:52 pm

    @PurpleGirl:
    Indeed, google is mightier than people think. I took a hacking course (and the Internet became very frightening) and quite a dew hackers consider it one of their favorite tools (mostly for the social engineering attacks)

  86. 86.

    trixie larue

    January 30, 2011 at 5:07 pm

    @Xboxershorts:

    Yeah, my husband and I are in our early 50’s. He’s an IT developer. We would never vote republican; unless the Dems become the teabaggers.

    Back in the olden days, you read the papers everyday, watched the evening news – Walter Cronkite, Huntley and Brinkley – and got real news. Also, there were the “underground” papers for free everywhere.

  87. 87.

    BR

    January 30, 2011 at 5:38 pm

    @morzer:

    My experience, sad to say, was with Harvard and Yale students.

    This article really lays it out – the problems with the modern higher education system, especially at “elite” schools:

    http://www.theamericanscholar.org/the-disadvantages-of-an-elite-education/

  88. 88.

    BR

    January 30, 2011 at 5:43 pm

    @Knocienz:

    I’m curious what you mean – how does Google help social engineering attacks? (I’ve heard of stuff like searching for special files that indicate unsecured devices or hosts on the network, but nothing about social engineering.)

  89. 89.

    SFAW

    January 30, 2011 at 5:50 pm

    Joe Buck –

    MonkeyBoy’s cuteness didn’t really explain it, unless you went through all the search results.

    So:

    If I understand things correctly, one of Andrew Sullivan’s minions (Conor Friedersdorf) referred to DougJ as “A writer at Balloon Juice”. DougJ’s response was to change his nom be blog to the name now in use.

    Of course, if I were really cool, instead of being just a normal everyday dickhead, I would have inserted a link to a site/page where, while ostensibly being helpful, is just designed to show off what a geek I am, and how my HTML-kung-fu is superior to yours. (I am a geek, but not about this stuff, and most definitely not cool.)

  90. 90.

    Becca

    January 30, 2011 at 6:12 pm

    I’m 53 and vote Democrat. I know people of all ages who are well informed (and don’t use computers) and people of all ages who are poorly informed (and do use computers). Of course, my observations are anecdotal as are yours. As such, they are probably useless. As are yours.

  91. 91.

    Anne Laurie

    January 30, 2011 at 7:03 pm

    @morzer:

    So this google thingummy, you wash dishes with it, right? Or is it that nice little thing that cuts the lawn for you?

    It’s the cute little machine that vacuums and gives your cat a ride at the same time! My grandkids sent me a youtube link…

  92. 92.

    Knocienz

    January 30, 2011 at 7:12 pm

    @BR: Yah, google is good for both, looking for any SQL or config file types that someone left out visible for the web crawlers.

    From a social engineering perspective, you can learn so much about people and their hobbies. Example in the course was a penetration test done by the instructor: doing searches on employees, they found one who was an avid stamp collector. The pentester wrote up an exploit and embedded it in a web page filled with stamp pictures. He then wrote an email to the employee during work hours saying that he had just inherited some rare stamps and included a link…

  93. 93.

    goatchowder

    January 30, 2011 at 7:19 pm

    It has to get beaten into you by fellow nerds, until it finally takes hold.

    I find this tool helpful: http://fuckinggoogleit.com/

    Anyone who spends more than a little time on IRC (particulary Freenode), learns quickly that you had better be wearing asbestos underwear if you ask a question on an IRC channel without Googling first.

  94. 94.

    A Writer At Balloon-Juice

    January 30, 2011 at 7:21 pm

    Thanks. So the answer is that, as a teacher, one should tell students about internet research rather than thinking you’d be insulting their intelligence by doing so.

  95. 95.

    Gina

    January 30, 2011 at 8:09 pm

    @A Writer At Balloon-Juice: Nope. I think they were hitting on you, using that as a conversational gambit. Heh.

  96. 96.

    Mona

    January 30, 2011 at 9:02 pm

    There are a lot of assumptions about “old” people and computers being voiced. I am 82, most of my friends close to my age use the Internet. We strongly lean liberal and did so before the Internet!

  97. 97.

    Exurban Mom

    January 30, 2011 at 10:09 pm

    @tesslibrarian: I am doing my best (teaching at a community college) to help rectify this problem. I just spent quite a lot of class time last week talking about various quality sources you can reach over the internet. Yes, all of the sources are “on line,” but not all are of good quality, and you can have many different TYPES of sources that are ALL reachable through the internet.

    This lesson does not always sink in, to my chagrin. But I do tell them to ask you lovely librarians for help, because many students simply don’t think to do that.

    As to the “Old people are Republican because they can’t use the internet,” I TOTALLY DISAGREE. This is my experience with my old fart Republican father: he can use the internet just fine, but he gets forwarded whackadoodle wingnut e-mails, believes them, and reforwards them all the time. I tell him that the idiocy is lies, and he says “prove it.” So I send him to Snopes.com and other debunking sites, and he says “they are all run by liberals.”

    Some older people are Republicans because they simply REFUSE TO LEARN. Funnily enough, the exact same thing can be said about Young Republicans.

  98. 98.

    goatchowder

    January 30, 2011 at 10:33 pm

    Jeez, when I was a kid, it was old people who voted Democratic, and young people who voted Republican.

    Then again, it was morning in Amerca, so, whataver.

  99. 99.

    A Writer At Balloon-Juice

    January 30, 2011 at 10:37 pm

    @Mona:

    Great!

  100. 100.

    Rafael

    January 30, 2011 at 11:18 pm

    @MikeJ: YES! I work as a secretary to a group of faculty and Jesus, every year students get lazier. They want every single reading included as a pdf in the course website, some even complain if I post a link! Can I please email them a pdf copy of the document?

    And I work with Master’s students! Seriously, if I can find the article in 2 seconds in google, why can’t they?

  101. 101.

    Ron

    January 31, 2011 at 12:06 am

    I’m all for “helping” my students, but I think helping them involves helping them figure out how to solve problems themselves, not solving the problem for them.

  102. 102.

    The Raven

    January 31, 2011 at 10:49 am

    Don’t kids know this already?

    Apparently not.

    This has been another edition of “snappy croaks in answer to silly questions.”

    One of the problems of the US educational system, as has been observed by numerous reformers, is that it stifles curiosity and initiative. At the (local famous state university) it is common for students to get to be juniors without having done any self-directed study. That is late in life to be learning how!

  103. 103.

    twiffer

    January 31, 2011 at 11:23 am

    everyone should know how to use a damn search engine.

    that said, this is a nifty way to make that point.

  104. 104.

    Person of Choler

    January 31, 2011 at 11:41 am

    “Don’t kids know this already?”

    Apparently not “A” students where you teach.

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