I am seldom surprised by our poll findings, but this month’s tracking poll produced a doozy. Twenty-two percent of the American people think the Affordable Care Act has been repealed, and another 26 percent aren’t sure. Those are surprisingly large numbers even with the 52 percent who still know it is the law of the land.
I wasn’t surprised at all, because I knew this:
Misperceptions about the law also persist: for example, three in ten seniors believe the law will permit government panels to make decisions about end-of-life care for Medicare recipients (often referred to as “death panels”).
It’s actually much worse than three in ten, from the detailed breakdown of the same poll (pdf).
After months of highly publicized debates over health care reform, some myths about the law still persist. A sizable group of seniors believe that the law cuts payments to physicians or cuts Medicare benefits, two provisions which are not included.
half of all seniors either think that the law includes a “death panel” provision or aren’t sure whether it does or not, similar to the proportion of seniors who thought the same in July.
The people who were told repeatedly that Pelosi and Obama created panels designed to kill them must be enormously relieved now that they have been told that Congress repealed the law, don’t you think? Whew. That was close.
“Obamacare had death panels in it, but, thankfully, it doesn’t matter because it’s been repealed”.
There hasn’t been any polling yet on whether people think the law has been determined to be unconstitutional and is therefore invalid or inoperative, but I fully expect half or better to believe it has been, because the coverage has been incredibly slanted in that direction.
“Obamacare was unconstitutional, so the courts overturned it”.
There must be some overlap between these groups of brutally misinformed people, so pulling all the misinformation together in one hypothetical individual, you or I could hear something like this:
“Obamacare, with the death panels, is unconstitutional, and was repealed by Congress”.
Here’s a handy list of the legal challenges.
These two cases are instructive, because they rely on widely disseminated lies about Obama to justify bogus “legal” challenges to the PPACA. A closed circle of fantasy:
The plaintiff argues the law imposes Marxism on citizens and therefore is a violation of the Establishment Clause in the Constitution. As of March 2, the court has taken no action.
The plaintiff argues that President Obama isn’t a citizen of the U.S., and, therefore, the law is unconstitutional. The Court is scheduled to consider the government’s request to dismiss the case on Feb. 22. As of March 2, the court has taken no action.
Butch
I think it was Pew and National Geographic that polled people right about at the start of the Iraq war on knowledge of geography, and found that two in 10 American adults can’t locate the Pacific Ocean on a map. I’ve never been surprised by a poll since.
redactor
If I were the managing editor of a major national newspaper or news division of a broadcast or cable network, I would be deeply ashamed that people think this kind of crap is true. The news media routinely report this kind of poll data and never conclude that is has anything to do with them. Astounding.
MattR
@redactor: Instead they will look at this data and comment how it just proves what a complicated, divisive issue HCR is.
MeDrewNotYou
Wait, what? Marxism. They keep saying that word. I do not think it means what they think it means.
Seriously, though, the Establishment Clause? What kind of stupidity is that? Our country is well and truly fucked.
SRW1
Oh, and Saddam had WMD, because they have been found.
kay
@redactor:
It’s been amazing and awful to observe.
I have a question on the death panels, though. If the death panels had actually been as Palin presented them, shouldn’t there have been MORE resistance?
I know something useful as a result of that lie. I know that a President and Congress could include death panels, more than half of senior citizens could believe it, and no one would do jack-shit about it :)
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
the sad part is, i won’t be making any money off of these idiots today.
kay
@MattR:
They blame civics education in the article I linked.
Teachers! Again!
Teachers are responsible for each and every problem in this country. They’re enormously powerful, apparently.
Alex S.
They’ve created another reality, another viewpoint to everything that is happening on Earth. Arab revolutions? All about Bush. Housing crisis? Carter’s fault. Everything that is wrong with the world today? Blacks, Hispanics, gays, unions, hippies. Movement conservatism is a holistic ideological system not unlike communism or fascism. It’s really impressive. And if you don’t bother to check the facts you get sucked into believing it because it feels right.
Calouste
OT, but an arrest has been made in the Spokane MLK Day mass murder attempt. Unsurprisingly, the suspects were apparently affiliated with white supremacists.
MattR
@kay: Oh geez. I guess I should have guessed. The good news is that you’ve made my brain hurt so much I probably won’t notice the torture the dentist is about to inflict on me (as I leave the apt for my appt)
ppcli
@Calouste: White supremacists? What a relief. I was worried that it was terrorists.
Calouste
Men, the Founding Fathers were so smart, they made Marxism unconstitutional three decades before Marx was even born.
Ash Can
@MattR:
Yevgraf (fka Michael)
America’s senior citizens deserve death panels just for being jingoistic fucking morons. I like the idea of sending panel trucks playing Lawrence Welk tunes and trolling Sun City while announcing giveaways of free Readers Digest abridged books on shelves inside.
JPL
@Calouste: Peter King will have to expand his hearings on domestic terrorism.
cleek
unsurprising.
in general, Americans don’t actually know shit about anything.
Calouste
@ppcli:
Nah, no terrorists, freedom fighters obviously. Well, either that or “mentally disturbed”.
Kryptik
@cleek:
But thank god we can innoculate them from crazy fringe lies like the Tea Party being racist. I mean, imagine how at risk our Democracy would be if they started to hear and believe silly things like that!
Calouste
@JPL:
Including whites in the definition of terrorism is such a pre-9/11 mindset.
jibeaux
I know the imams at my local Marxist temple have been very supportive of Obamacare and that must mean something!
Davis X. Machina
@kay: Not powerful enough to flunk a varsity starter with impunity though.
Apparently no one’s that powerful.
Tony J
@SRW1:
Watchutalkinboutwillis?
It’s been nine whole years and no one has been around to dig up my back garden. So, nu-uh.
Davis X. Machina
@Calouste: The Founding Fathers, understanding the dialectic, and where it was ineluctably headed, just acted preemptively, silly.
That’s how good the dialectic is. It even predicted Marx.
Baud
That poll isn’t frightening. What’s frightening is that those misinformed Americans vote in droves, while the better informed think voting doesn’t matter.
ppcli
@Calouste: Isolated, deranged individuals. Who listen to nothing but NPR. And who admire Hitler, which makes them liberals.
Jay C
@ Kay:
Well, while we BJ’ers certainly appreciate nutpicking wingnut foolery to vigorously mock, the two ACA “challenges” you cite here really are the glaring [bad] examples of nuttery, and are virtually certain to be dismissed. I would be far more worried about the rest of the cases on Kaiser’s list: especially the ones being brought by State AG’s – wingers or not, they are more likely to be based on some sort of coherent Constitutional argument – whether “correct” or not remains to be determined….
@Calouste:
What, seven weeks afterwards? I wonder what took them so long? And anyway, @ppcli beat me to my reply!
@ppcli: This also, too.
J sub D
People believe all sorts of stupid shit.
How many people here think PPACA will –
A) Lower health care costs as a percentage of GDP?
B) How about reducing slowing the rise in health insurance costs?
C) Increase life expectancy beyond what prior trends indicate?
D) Reduce the deficit long term?
E) Place more people on the health insurance dole?
If you answered anything other than E you’ve just bought a big lie.
Southern Beale
Quite possibly the best thing I’ve read yet on the REAL story behind the Wisconsin struggle. It’s long but it’s a must-read, as it traces the “vast right wing conspiracy” behind the whole battle.
Calouste
@Jay C:
Lots of white supremacist nuttos in that neck of the woods you have to shift through before you find the one that actually did put their fingerprints on the backpack. If the police did a “round up the usual suspects”, both Washington and Idaho would run out of jail space, even if they stack them three high.
SRW1
@Tony J:
Well, if that needs doing, maybe you should drop them a hint.
Bill H.
And yet we still favor direct democracy, electing a representative government and then urging that the public overwhelm their representative with phone calls to disctate the vote of that representative. We cheer the Democrats in Wisconsin who subvert the function of that representative government because the “public overwhelmingly favors” a different view.
I know, I’m a right wing asshole posting trolling crap.
stuckinred
@Bill H.: subvert my ass
patrick II
I know of one extended family of Fox news fans that had a family meeting to consider moving to Australia to get away from Obama’s socialization of America through his health care plan.
Of course Australia has a government managed program, named Medicare by the way, for everyone. They were pretty disappointed when I told them, and decided to stay in America after all. But they still hate that socialist Obama.
john b
@J sub D:
you list a bunch of things which can’t be known for sure.
There are certainly indications that at least A and D will take place. And C might be likely as well if I’m understanding your broken English correctly.
Midnight Marauder
@kay:
If I was an elderly citizen who was knowledgeable and actively engaged in politics in this country, I would be deeply disgraced by my demographic counterparts. As though when you reach a certain age, you know longer have any obligations or need to pay attention to what is actually happening in the world. And we kind of expect that from them as a culture, to just be clueless and untethered from reality and believe things like death panels.
But you are right, kay. If I seriously believed that the President of the United States was trying to set up death panels, I sure as fuck would hit the streets to protest something real serious like. I certainly wouldn’t just shrug my shoulders and fire up another episode of Law & Order on the ol’ DVR.
Shoemaker-Levy 9
Republicans 30%, Independents 25%, Dems 12%. Perhaps in this case we should let them keep believing incorrect information.
Martin
@Bill H.: Um, talking to your representatives or protesting is not ‘direct democracy’, you idiot. Ballot initiatives are direct democracy.
What we’re seeing in WI is how a representative democracy is supposed to work.
Ash Can
@Bill H.: I like how you conveniently ignore the fact that said “representative government” lied its way into power — specifically, the ones who claimed during the campaign that they would support bargaining rights when in office. But hey, it’s the Wisconsin voters’ fault for taking the candidates at their word, right? Joke’s on them for basing their votes on a candidate’s stated policies; they should just vote for whoever has the nicest hair.
Southern Beale
TN Republican State Senator Bill Ketron wants state to consider creating its own currency. Oh I know, maybe we can call them Confederate dollars.
piratedan
@Bill H.: ahh Bill, you’re right, those folks in Wisconsin did indeed elect those folks to represent them. As has been posted elsewhere on this blog, those people were voted specifically because of their pro-union stances (yes, they were Republicans) and then when Walker introduces said legislation to bust said unions all those pro-union Republicans took the principled stand of staying with their parties versus their beliefs….lets not quibble about how Walker had the law brought up for a vote without debate, because that would be unfair to allow the minority to have their say.
I understand the reap what you sow stuff perfectly well because I live in Arizona and I get to watch my state lege vote on essential stuff like naming a state handgun and promoting the manufacture of new tea party license plates because the head of the State Senate has decreed that the Tea Party is a non-political entity…..all this while cutting the corporate tax rate and slashing education. Perhaps in a generation my kids will be storming the gated communities of your kids and killing them in the next american revolution eh?
eric
two facts to keep in mind: first, the infamous “nigerian prince” scams worked repeatedly, and second, I am looking for help transferring funds from a cashier’s check I received from a Saudi prince as compensation for a previously made investment.
There is no limit on wishful and uncritical thinking. The one thing that most people know implicitly (and many explicitly) is that their lives suck a$$ — life is harsh and draining and society’s rewards are unevenly and seemingly randomly distributed. How one chooses to address this “knowledge” is the key. Some respond by deifying nature or money or by creating a universal figure of divine justice.
“There is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide.” To avoid “yes” people create bizarre artifices of belief systems to privilege themselves in some way to avoid being one of the meaningless.
Uncritical and wishful thinking leave that artifice in place and pacify the scared soul.
/sermon off
Martin
@J sub D:
Health care costs as a percentage of GDP isn’t the problem. Same as pet food costs as a percentage of GDP. 30% of all health care spending is voluntary. Liposuction and botox is health care, after all. But critical care costs as a percentage of GDP? Yes, that should go down due to PPACA by eliminating the shifting of care to Medicare. But other areas will undoubtedly go up so long as discretionary income allows. This isn’t a problem that needs solving. Government health care spending as a % of GDP may be, however, but this will likely go up by shifting more spending out of the private sector.
It should slow the rise, but purely due to regulation, not market forces.
Increase life expectancy for who? The elderly? No. Newborns? Yes, most likely. Not much after that, though. Prenatal is pretty much the only place to make gains. Airbags does more for everyone after that relative to health care.
Given that it shifts Medicare spending back to consumers and creates new revenue streams, yes.
Yes. Paid for by those revenue streams.
Why not just toss in a death panel question, if you’re not going to tell us anything of substance?
Ruckus
@J sub D:
Increase life expectancy beyond what prior trends indicate?
My doctor once told me in my early twenties to eat better.
I asked how much longer I would live?
He said maybe a couple of months.
Why should I worry about a couple of months?
It’s not the additional months, it’s the quality of life getting there.
Genetics seems to play a pretty big role in how long you are capable of living and baring accidents, you determine how well you get there.
That’s what health care is about.
nestor
@J sub D:
Your concerns are terribly important and worth noting, as always.
Ruckus
@nestor:
Isn’t hard to type with your tongue stuck that hard in your cheek?
Scott P.
I don’t know of any evidence for this.
jl
What is “the health insurance dole” supposed to mean?
Elizabelle
@redactor:
Agreed. You could not have these poll results if the press was doing its job, and doing it well.
Pointedly, you would not have these results among people who listened to NPR along with whatever other news sources they chose.
jl
“A popular Government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy; or, perhaps both. Knowledge will forever govern ignorance: And a people who mean to be their own Governors, must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives.”
James Madison to W. T. Barry, 4 Aug. 1822
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch18s35.html
I think we have been going through the farce phase for awhile, so I don’t want to think about what is coming next.
Martin
@jl: Anyone who receives subsidized health insurance. I’d take that as anything from Medicaid to what PPACA offers in low-income subsidies.
General Stuck
You put together the anti – Obama right wing mythology with the left wing anti – Obama mythology, you get Fox News meets the The Stay Puff Marshmellow Man, and we’ll all be lucky to live through it.
jibeaux
@patrick II:
Playing “what country would you be willing to move to that does not have universal healthcare?” is a fun party game. Ok, not fun, but illustrative.
gocart mozart
In regards to the constitutionality question, the debate boils down to a Lochner vs post Lochner mindset. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lochner_v._New_York In other words, do you think the New Deal was constitutional or not? If those who argue that the HCR law is unconstitutional were intellectually honest (I know right?) they must necessarily believe that social security, medicare,minimum wage, pretty much all of the New Deal/Great Society is also.
jibeaux
@patrick II:
But, you know, points for following the plot of “Alexander and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Day” so nicely. Good book.
Shadow's Mom
@Baud: This!
gocart mozart
See reason for FDR “court packing scheme” also.
debbie
It seems the Department of Education has already become superfluous.
El Cid
@Midnight Marauder:
I’m not elderly, but I feel deeply disgraced by my demographic counterparts. And other parts too.
nestor
@Ruckus: @Ruckus:
Define hard.
jl
@Martin:
I don’t buy that. There are obvious market failures in health insurance. I do not see how receiving a subsidy to correct that market failure can in any sense be called a dole, either an explicit one in cash or an implicit it one through compulsory coverage and community rating.
If there are subsidies to allow the poor to afford insurance that provides a minimum standard of care, that part of a health insurance law might be called a ‘dole’.
But to identify all subsidies and transfers involved in insuring the population with being on a ‘dole’ is ridiculous.
jl
Never mind the Madison quote above, he was a commie, a collectivist, a leveler, a wager of class war, an advocate for public education welfare queens, against local control of property taxes for education, and in general, a very bad person. Wait ’til Beck hears about it.
From the same letter I quoted above:
“The LIBERAL [my emphasis] appropriations made by the Legislature of Kentucky for a general system of Education cannot be too much applauded.”
…
“No error is more certain than the one proceeding from a hasty & superficial view of the subject: that the people at large have no interest in the establishment of Academies, Colleges, and Universities, where a few only, and those not of the poorer classes can obtain for their sons the advantages of superior education. It is thought to be unjust that all should be taxed for the benefit of a part, and that too the part least needing it.
If provision were not made at the same time for every part, the objection would be a natural one. But, besides the consideration when the higher Seminaries belong to a plan of general education, that it is better for the poorer classes to have the aid of the richer by a general tax on property, than that every parent should provide at his own expence for the education of his children, it is certain that every Class is interested in establishments which give to the human mind its highest improvements, and to every Country its truest and most durable celebrity.
“Learned Institutions ought to be favorite objects with every free people. They throw that light over the public mind which is the best security against crafty & dangerous encroachments on the public liberty. They are the nurseries of skilful Teachers for the schools distributed throughout the Community. They are themselves schools for the particular talents required for some of the Public Trusts, on the able execution of which the welfare of the people depends. They multiply the educated individuals from among whom the people may elect a due portion of their public Agents of every description; more especially of those who are to frame the laws; by the perspicuity, the consistency, and the stability, as well as by the just & equal spirit of which the great social purposes are to be answered.
Without such Institutions, the more costly of which can scarcely be provided by individual means, none but the few whose wealth enables them to support their sons abroad can give them the fullest education; and in proportion as this is done, the influence is monopolized which superior information every where possesses. At cheaper & nearer seats of Learning parents with slender incomes may place their sons in a course of education putting them on a level with the sons of the Richest. Whilst those who are without property, or with but little, must be peculiarly interested in a System which unites with the more Learned Institutions, a provision for diffusing through the entire Society the education needed for the common purposes of life. A system comprizing the Learned Institutions may be still further recommended to the more indigent class of Citizens by such an arrangement as was reported to the General Assembly of Virginia, in the year 1779, by a Committee1 appointed to revise laws in order to adapt them to the genius of Republican Government. It made part of a “Bill for the more general diffusion of knowledge” that wherever a youth was ascertained to possess talents meriting an education which his parents could not afford, he should be carried forward at the public expence, from seminary to seminary, to the completion of his studies at the highest.”
Svensker
@jl:
And where do we sign up?
gocart mozart
@El Cid:
Veiled penis reference? ;)
gocart mozart
“Awaiting moderation!” What? You can’t say penis! I want my country/blog back.
gocart mozart
I mean P*NIS!
nestor
@jl:
tl;dr: The Far Left needs to get with the program.
jl
@Svensker:
I bet you are one of those welfare kweengs (is you a he or a she?) living high on the social security dole, aren’t you?
If it weren’t for parasites like you, I could go out and buy more ‘stuff’. dammitall, this country is going to ruination!
vtr
@Midnight Marauder: Ahem. As a 66. 79573-year-old I hasten to point out that the poll says “22 per cent of the American people (not senior citizens) believe that HCR has been repealed. Now, I know many in my age bracket have a hearing difficulty that makes it hard for them to hear intelligent, well-informed people, but I would guess that the general population is about as ignorant. By the way, how do you think the Mets will do? Did you hear Charlie Sheen got fired. Justin Bieber has new cd out and it stinks, but he says he might get a new hairstyle this spring.
Ash Can
@jl: Oh yeah? Well, he didn’t mean it exackly like that, an’ besides, we got our own real Christian schools, founded by Jesus hisself through the NRA and CPAC, and bearing the names of good Christian American Men of God (TM) who didn’t need no gubmint money and who sunk their own money into ’em instead so that the evil soshulist gubmint wouldn’t steal all their $millions, which they fleeced from their followers fair ‘n’ square (pastors don’t call ’em the “flock” for nothin’, ya know). And shut up, that’s why, also too.
hilts
OT
Arrest made in MLK March bomb probe
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2011/mar/09/announcement-expected-break-through-mlk-bomb-probe
JoeG
Oswald shot JFK. By himself. Lone Nut. lather-rinse-repeat.
you adapt/evolve into to what level of intelligence/inquisitiveness the machine regurgitates for you. 1960-early 1980s MSM gave us some rays of truth but now only lies to keep the natives fat, on the couch, and out of the streets.
mclaren
Forget about the Affordable Care Act’s repeal. That’s small beans. The big question is: What do we do about all those WMDs we found in Iraq?
Especially since they were used against our troops. They could be used again, y’know.
But whaddaya expect when you’ve got a president who was born in Kenya and has dedicated his life to establishing a muslim caliphate in the U.S. of A?
Nick
@Scott P.:
The 111th Congress
Martin
@jl:
But that’s precisely what the ‘dole’ is – simply being on some form of state support. I wouldn’t read any more into it than just that – I don’t see it as a bad thing or something that needs to be eliminated. In fact, it might be the most cost-effective option for the economy.
Nick
@Scott P.: meant the 112th Congress
hilts
OT
Stevens County man charged with attempted MLK Day bombing in Spokane
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2014443763_spokanebomb10m.html
patrick II
@jibeaux:
I hadn’t read that book, but because of your kudos I found it, strangely enough, being read on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p09_ULvFBlA
It is a very good an amusing book, and if Palin gets elected, maybe I will move to Australia.
Pangloss
It’s enough to make you wish Death Panels were true.
Midnight Marauder
@vtr:
Sure enough. But within the demographic that dominated the voting ranks in the last election, the following things are true:
So, yes, the general population is pretty ignorant, but when it comes to this subject in particular, your demographic is shockingly ignorant, to the point of their own eventual detriment.
Just Some Fuckhead
I think it’s time for a Hee-Haw themed version of Sesame Street for adults. We can save these idiots.
JPL
@hilts: I just searched the major papers and news sites and found it mentioned on MSNBC. I’m shocked that the MSM wouldn’t broadcast this.
nestor
@mclaren:
The WMDs have long since been relocated to Dulce Base.
Their broken down constituents have probably compromised half the breakfast cereals on today’s market.
someguy
Those lies aren’t the half of it. Most people seem to believe it’s going to be more costly than the current system, when in fact it’s saving billions, if not trillions.
vtr
@Just Some Fuckhead: Or one called “SoYou Think You Can Think?”
gene108
@Shoemaker-Levy 9: There was a Republican freshman Rep. from Texas on C-SPAN this morning. A caller asked, what Republicans have done to create jobs. The Rep. said they repealed Obamacare. Someone Tweeted a similar comment. His response, again, was the House repealed Obamacare.
I’m not surprised people think it’s been repealed. You have House members claiming they’ve repealed it, without the Senate passing the bill and the President signing the repeal into law and no one’s calling them out for this piece of bullshit.
The Dangerman
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Too bad Ernest is dead; he’d be great. Ain’t that right, Verne?
mclaren
@General Stuck:
Bill Daley: “Rahm has gone bye-bye, Barack…what’ve you got left?”
Obama: “Sorry, Daley, I’m terrified beyond the capacity for rational thought.”
[Suddenly a giant 300-foot-tall silhouette looms up outside the White House]
Bill Daley: “I couldn’t help it. It just popped in there.”
Obama: [angrily] “What? *What* `just popped in there?'”
Bill Daley: “I… I… I tried to think…”
Obama: “LOOK!”
[they all look over one side of the roof]
Bill Daley: “No! It CAN’T be!”
Jay Carney: “What is it?”
Bill Daley: “It CAN’T be!”
Obama: “What did you DO, Jay?”
Jay Carney: “Oh, shit!”
Obama: “It’s Sarah Palin.”
Bill Daley: [as the giant silhouette approaches the White House] “Grab your stick!”
[Obama, press secretary Jay Carney and White House Chief of Staff all pull out their copies of the constitution] “HOLDIN’!”
Obama: “Heat ’em up!”
[all three flick their Bics]
[Obama, Jay Carney and Bill Daley]: “SMOKIN’!”
Obama: “Make ’em hard!”
[they set fire to their copies of the constitution]
[Jay Carney, Obama and Bill Daley]: “READY!”
Obama: “Let’s show this prehistoric bitch how we do things downtown… THROW IT!”
General Stuck
Blow it out your ass, you racist Trotskyite piece of shit.
Paula
But hey, polls say that the public is really really secretly progressive!! Honestly! Why is Obama not paying attention to them??
b-psycho
A law requiring people to purchase a service from private companies, and these morons call it “Marxism”…
Omnes Omnibus
@b-psycho: It makes you wonder what they would call state ownership of the means of production.
Sly
Seems like a reasonable breakdown. Nearly 40% of Medicare beneficiaries, when asked, have reported that they have not received benefits from a government-run social program, with similar numbers for SS retirement and survivors benefits. And those who received education subsidies through the G.I. Bill.
Perhaps that’s the magic number; the Crazifacation Factor when you adjust for age.
b-psycho
@Sly: Who the fuck do they think runs those programs then? Elves?
priscianus jr
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@Calouste: no they are left leaning white supremacists as proven by the list of books they were assigned in high school, they cherished every page so much, their teachers report they returned every book in mint condition.
Omnes Omnibus
@b-psycho: Obviously not elves. They are too busy baking cookies in the trees. It is pixies.
Caz
The question is why are people so misinformed? It can’t all be due to Fox News, since none of the misinformed positions you cited have been put forth by Fox News. Perhaps other media sources are disseminating misleading information (e.g. MSNBC, CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, NYT, WSJ).
They must be getting their info from somewhere. And you can’t keep blaming Fox News for info that they aren’t putting out.
I’m open to suggestions as to where people are getting this misinformation.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@Omnes Omnibus:
privatization of social security through government investment in publically traded stocks and bonds
Omnes Omnibus
@Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal: Oh, well, that a good thing, right? As long as it isn’t Marxist, amirite?
Midnight Marauder
@b-psycho:
As long as they are private sector elves, then yes.
mclaren
The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over, but it can’t. Not without your help. But you’re not helping.
General Crackpot Fake Name: What do you mean, I’m not helping? Blow it out your ass, you racist Trotskyite piece of shit.
I mean: you’re not helping! Why is that, General? Describe in single words only the good things that come to mind about…your mother.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Caz:
The Bible.
nestor
@Caz:
Protein Wisdom. I heard that was wildly popular with today’s young people.
nestor
@mclaren:
What’s a tortoise?
Mnemosyne
@Caz:
You mean the media sources that we constantly complain don’t report the facts and write stories like “Flat Earth or Round Earth — The Controversy”? Those media sources?
And yet you will believe to your grave that every one of those sources are cherished and believed implicitly by liberals no matter how many times we tell you that they are not trustworthy and we fact check everything we read in them.
mclaren
@nestor:
You know what a turtle is? Same thing.
Triassic Sands
Believing two things that aren’t true — what a remarkably inefficient way to arrive at the “truth,” where the truth is that no one is threatened by death panels, except those created by Republican* state legislators (see Arizona) and private insurance companies.
* I hesitated to write Republican because the way states are cutting health services for the poor it seems inevitable that Democratic legislators will eventually come up with some form of death panel. After all, when the choice is between raising taxes on the downtrodden (aka the wealthiest Americans) or cutting services for the parasites (aka the poor and disabled), it’s a pretty easy choice.
nestor
@mclaren:
I’ve never seen a turtle… But I understand what you mean.
Cermet
People are lazy and afraid – that means they will take the first liar (spelled repug-athug) and believe them because it already agrees with their original beliefs (Blacks/browns are the source of all welfare), A-rabs cause all terror and we are dog’s chosen people … or was that god? Finally, they need to believe the myths they were taught – Hitler and Stalin along with cheney … I mean Mao, were the great evils that amerikans, all by them little (and boy were they little) fought them and defeated them all alone – amerikia way of life – white, wealthy rule – is best. This country is a joke but a sad one – so much good so wasted on so many stupid people.
Opie-jeanne
Just heard that David Broder died. He was 81.
mclaren
@J sub D:
The truth is that we just don’t know. Your point, though, seems to be that the preliminary evidence from the Massachusetts health care system looks unpromising, and that’s correct.
We have someone else in this thread claiming that Obama’s HCR bill will save “billions.” It doesn’t take full effect until 2014, so there’s no evidence on that score now. We do, however, have some evidence from health care costs in Massachusetts, which put in place a bunch of changes closely resembling the congressional ACA bill. (Indeed, the ACA bill is based on Mitt Romney’s Massachusetts “reform.”)
Sources: Kaiser Health News, “Massachusetts Shows Federal Reform Headed For Trouble,” 22 July 2010.
“The Effect of Massachusetts’ Health Reform on Employer-Sponsored Insurance Premiums,” John F. Cogan, Stanford University, R. Glenn Hubbard, Graduate School of Business of Columbia University, Daniel Kessler, Stanford University, published in Forum For Health and Economics Policy, Vol. 13, 2010, Issue No. 2.
Cogan, Hubbard and Kessler, op. cit.
Data showing higher health insurance premiums for Massachusetts as compared to the rest of the nation.
The essential problems in the ACA (and in the Massachusetts plan on which the ACA is based) are 1) both plans create a captive market for for-profit private health insurance while reducing the public exchanges to such a small number of eligible and extremely chronically ill insurees that the primary economic effect involves rent-seeking, cartelization and massively increased “dumping” of sick people into the state exchanges; and 2) both plans implement no direct cost-saving measures.
(If you don’t believe dumping is already endemic, google “states slash medicaid” and study the resulting news stories in the New York Times, Boston Globe, etc. That’s dumping going on right now, and it’s getting worse.)
The combination of no cost-saving mechanisms + forced cartelization of a captive market in an industry already rife with monopolies (many insurees cannot find more than one insurer who serves their geographic area, and this is intentional on health insurers’ part — in fact, health insurers typically divvy up geographical areas between themselves to insure local monopolies) is like tossing a lit match into a roomful of gasoline.
While at present no one can say definitely what the net effect of Obama’s HCR non-reform will be, common sense plus the available statistics from Massachusetts, where the health-care non-reform has been running longer than the national plan, aren’t looking good.
Some observers have suggested that Obama is involved in 11-dimensional chess by setting up a system without cost controls that will prove so unworkable that it will eventually force massive major reforms in the entire chain of American health care delivery.
The current American health care delivery system is astronomically more expensive than comparable health care delivery systems in Europe or Japan. Sky-high costs are built in the American health care system from the lowest to the highest levels, from medical devicemakers (who overprice their devices by roughly 10,000% and routinely bribe doctors and hospitals to use their overpriced equipment) to big pharma (which routinely bribes doctors to use expensive patented drugs rather than generic meds) to hospitals (which routinely overprice procedures and medical supplies by somewhere in the neighborhood of 20,000% — typical examples include charging $10 per aspirin and $5 per cotton ball) to imaging/blood work clinics, which charge an average of $950 for MRIs which cost $150 in France using the exact same machine, to health insurers which actually don’t make much profit and primarily act to pass along the constantly skyrocketing costs of medical procedures to the consumer in the form of constantly rising insurance premiums.
It’s impossible to say at this point whether this is what Obama is doing. If it is, he’s playing chicken with 18% of the U.S. economy because right now it looks as though there will be no meaningful reform unless we get catastrophic disruption in the delivery of medical services in America. That’s a polite way of saying total chaos and a complete breakdown, and an increasing number of doctors and economists are predicting that. When you run the numbers, you find that there is simply not enough money in America to pay for medical care at the rate its cost is increasing. At some point in the foreseeable future, so few Americans and so few employers will be able to afford health insurance that the system will break down.
We don’t know at what point that will occur. We do know that potentially catastrophic disruptions are already cropping up in the form of big companies using medical tourism to reduce their health insurance costs.
Source: “Medical Tourism At Home: Big Companies Start to Shop at Hospitals Across the U.S.,” Ken Terry, 5 August 2010.
The next step is obvious: medical tourism on chartered flights to India, China, etc.
The final step is equally obvious: a large block of state-of-the-art hospitals set up 100 feet across the border in Mexico and manned by highly-qualified Harvard-trained doctors from India, Pakistan, etc.
You don’t need to be rocket scientist to figure out the economic impact this will have on American hospitals and doctors and imaging clinics and medical devicemakers. You also don’t need to be Nostradamus to foresee that the AMA will lobby for — and get — a congressional bill making medical tourism a federal felony punishable by a mandatory minimum of 10 years in federal prison plus a $250,000 fine.
That’s the point at which the breakdown occurs, U.S. hospitals start getting firebombed, doctors get dragged from their cars and lynched, and national guard troops plus machinegun emplacements and concrete barriers and razor wire have to be placed around every hospital in America.
Ruckus
@nestor:
Requiring much extra effort.
Sly
@b-psycho:
There are two kinds of “no” answers.
1) Those who believe that, because they’ve paid into funding system behind SS/Medicare, their status as beneficiaries does not work out to be a net positive for them. What they fail to understand is that these funding mechanisms work because a very large pool of assets gains a large return on investment. So most people, and by that I mean the people who don’t die before becoming beneficiaries, will gain more than they put in. They’re basically ignorant.
2) Those who are terminally stupid. There are also people who believe they’ve received no assistance from a Federal social program and who have been on food stamps, Medicaid, or received Federal housing assistance. In other words, programs that are impervious to the thinking embraced by the first group and cannot be thought of in any way other than government assistance. The percentages for these groups are generally in the mid 20s, and elves are probably as good an answer for what they think is the source for these programs as any other.
namekarB
Some voting law changes needed.
Lower the voting age to 13 and cap the voting age at 60. Those under 21 and those over 60 may only vote if they prove to be competent by passing the same tests that legal immigrants must pass in order to retain eligibility to vote.
Justin Bieber for senate. Yeah!!!!