James Fallows, in a post titled “The Brave and Serious Mr. Ryan,” simply unloads:
1) A plan to deal with budget problems that says virtually nothing about military spending is neither brave nor serious. That would be enough to disqualify it from the “serious” bracket, but there’s more.
2) A plan that proposes to eliminate tax loopholes and deductions, but doesn’t say what any of those are, is neither brave nor serious. It is, instead canny — or cynical, take your pick. The reality is that many of these deductions, notably for home-mortgage interest payments, are popular and therefore risky to talk about eliminating.
3) A plan that exempts from future Medicare cuts anyone born before 1957 — about a quarter of the population, which includes me — is neither brave nor serious. See “canny or cynical: take your pick” above.
4) A plan to reconcile revenue and spending, which rules out axiomatically any conceivable increase in tax rates, is neither brave nor serious. Rather, it is exactly as brave and serious as some opposite-extreme proposal that ruled out axiomatically any conceivable cut in entitlement spending or discretionary accounts.
5) A plan to reduce the federal deficit by granting big tax reductions to the highest-income Americans, at a time when their tax rates are very low by historic standards and and their share of the national income is extremely high, and when middle-class job creation is our main economic challenge, is neither brave nor serious. See “cynical,” above.
6) A plan that identifies rising health-care costs as the main problem in public spending, but avoids altogether the question of how to contain those costs, is neither brave nor serious. This is a longer and more complicated discussion (see below*); but I submit that the more closely anyone looks at the Ryan plan, the less “serious” it will seem on this extremely important front.
7) A plan that reduces, among other things, research on future energy sources and technologies by about 85% may be “brave,” but it’s also crazy and short-sighted.
Ryan’s budget plan is no worse than some other partisan proposals, and it has the virtue of being more detailed than most. Let me hasten to say that it is more comprehensive and convincing than one I could draw up myself. But it’s also no big intellectual or conceptual improvement on other partisan proposals. The wonder is that Ryan has managed to convince some people that it is.
Shots fired. I’m thinking Fallows is off the Daily Dish Christmas card list. I believe over the past few days I have mentioned every one of those points, btw, but then again I used all caps and hurt Sully’s fee-fees, so it is cool to lie about what I said.
WereBear
Fallows is actually following what we in the biz call “What Happens Next…”
So he can’t be serious!
geg6
Ooooo, now that Sully’s no longer an Atlantan, Fallows is gonna kick his ass just like John Cole.
SteveinSC
Mika will most surely scold Mr. Fallows for being shrill tomorrow on Scarface. (Oops, I mean Monday.)
MikeJ
We had seven minutes with a doggie post at the top of the blog.
Lit3Bolt
I’m thinking Sully makes people who blog mad the same way a smug little shit like Mark Zuckerberg makes businessmen and programmers mad.
I’m sure Sullivan is laughing out loud that his troll-posts and specious thinking is taken seriously enough to get 2 million hits a month. I mean seriously, he gets paid to man-crush and uterus-hate all he wants. A gay Catholic man’s dream!
Bob Loblaw
So does this make Fallows brave and serious, or merely serious?
Because I’m not sure I can handle much more seriousness from any direction in terms of Paul Ryan and The Crippling Budget Problem of Doom.
sukabi
Do you have a safe word John? Do you want one?
geg6
@Bob Loblaw:
All I know is I’ve had the “Brave Sir Robin” song from Holy Grail going through my head all week. It hasn’t been helped by Mr. Fallows blog post title.
schrodinger's cat
In what universe is Paul Ryan considered hot? He is pleasant enough to look at but hot? I don’t get Mr. Sullivan’s serious crush.
Brachiator
Obama and the Democrats need to keep hitting this.
“Republicans. We cut taxes for years under Bush and instead of creating jobs, you lost jobs and wrecked the economy. Forget tinkering with Medicare and Social Security. Quit trying to distract the American people with sideshows about the federal budget. Where is your job plan?”
Every time the GOP comes out with some master blueprint, the response should be “Where is your job plan?”
Stop telling us how your stuff is going to limit government. Where is your job plan?
Martin
Honestly, Fallows is damn near the only person worth reading any longer.
donr
I don’t think Sullivan lies because John used all caps and hurt his fee-fee’s. Andrew “fifth column” Sullivan was never a model of intellectual integrity. He would have lied anyway.
sukabi
@sukabi: then again, maybe it’s Sully that needs one…
I’d suggest “Uncle”
schrodinger's cat
@donr: Okay how many days till John gets his Moore Award? I know its coming soon…
13th Generation
Cole, dude, have a drink. Or two. Or something. I’m starting to be concerned for your health.
vernonlee
Sully seems to have forgotten that the only reason he extended his “but what’s the Dems’ plan?” argument is that it was his “I know you are but what am I?” defense of himself for getting so suckered by Ryan.
Now he’s dug himself in deep on this one. With each passing day, readers write in to plead with him to notice the deafening chorus of raspberries blown in reaction to Ryan’s “serious” budget. And Sully has retreated so deeply into his self-defense of “but Obama!!!” he can’t even remember why he’s stuck on that point.
Hint: Because you were trying to distract us from your spectacular gullibility vis-a-vis Ryan.
Poopyman
@schrodinger’s cat: “Pleasant enough to look at?” Dude, it’s all I can do to resist the temptation to wipe the smarm off his face. And if I ever meet him in person it would be dicey going.
I’m just one of those uncouth Irish, I guess.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
The Ryan budget is fiscal Lysenkoism. Is it any wonder that Pravda on the Potomac and the usual chorus of Party Line Parrots are squaking about how wonderful it is? Correctly oriented cadres..,etc.
kansi
@schrodinger’s cat: I wonder how “brave” and “serious” the plan would be, if Ryan looked a bit more like Sensenbrenner.
Steve M.
This might matter.
Regrettably, it doesn’t matter what Krugman, Maddow, Robert Reich, Ezra Klein, bloggers, or even the Jonathans at TNR say — the Village simply traps and quarantines everything they say the way Norton traps well-known viruses. Fallows isn’t quite in that category. I’m happy he wrote this.
kansi
@Brachiator: Totally THIS! “Where are the jobs?” should be the first and last question put to GOPers every time they show their faces.
Ash Can
@SteveinSC: I’m sure she’ll have forgotten all about it by lunchtime tomorrow.
jl
@kansi:
If Ryan’s seriousness quotient goes down because of the indisputable in your face bogusity of its logic and numbers, he needs to start saying vicious nutty stuff like Alan Simpson.
Ryan is probably too young to get away with trying to humiliate any and all random US citizens, preferably vulnerable and sick, who dare question the least tittle or dot of his pronouncements.
But, Ryan could just spout totally insane, insulting abusive nonsense into cameras, and radio microphones like Simpson, and that would work. He would be Very Serious and Brave again.
cleek
feefees! yay!
El Cid
__
Maybe off the top of your head.
I bet Fallows or I could sit down for a couple of days, maybe a week, with guides to the federal budget and various analyses, and come up with something more comprehensive and convincing, at least, to people who give a shit. It might take a while to write it up and edit it, too.
And very little based upon bullshit.
This is in part because some people forget that most political leaders are not experts on any matter whatsoever.
Ana Gama
@kansi: Or Chris Christie.
PeakVT
@schrodinger’s cat: I think it’s that Ryan is “hot” to someone who is deeply disturbed and enjoys hurting the less fortunate to compensate.
freelancer
Cole’s safeword is “Christianist”. Makes for muddled communication between John and Andrew, I’m sure.
schrodinger's cat
@Poopyman: I have to agree, I was just trying to be polite. Also when I see Bachmann or Palin, my first thought isn’t pretty, but stark raving lunatic (especially Bachmann)
cleek
@Martin:
they will say: “government spending crowds out private spending” (it’s a mantra – don’t bother asking how or why or for proof). so, if we stop spending so much on government there will be more money available for private spending. and that means jobs!
that our current era of record profits for businesses hasn’t produced more jobs is irrelevant.
eemom
I refuse to look at Ryan long enough to form an opinion of his appearance.
Chad N Freude
John –
A couple of suggestions:
1. Stop posting links to Sullivan’s hit piece. It only encourages readers to click to his Daily Bestiality.
2. You have every right to be offended by Sullivan’s mendacious personal attack, but please stop posting defensively. You know how your readers perceive you, and anybody who deliberately reads Sullivan (without linking from BJ) and is thereby influenced to form a negative opinion of you — in ignorance of what you write here — will have absolutely no influence on your life, your blog, or your status in the Coolkids’ Blogging Hierarchy. Just take deep breaths and ignore him.
I’m serious. (And I know that you saw what I did there.)
Brachiator
@schrodinger’s cat:
He looks a bit like the teacher on Glee. But hotness? Not anything I could comment on.
schrodinger's cat
@Brachiator: What is Glee?
Tom Hilton
@Brachiator: I was thinking he looks kind of like Enver Gjokaj (Victor, in Dollhouse). But I too am unqualified to comment on hotness.
trollhattan
@schrodinger’s cat:
If Sully was raised on “Munsters” reruns, in his formative years, that could ‘splain it. Otherwise, I’m left with “looks dashing standing next to Mitch McConnell.”
Overtaxed
Funny, I don’t see a Democrat alternative in this wailing, fuming, and screaming from the Left over Ryan’s plan.
Medicare will go bankrupt. Our side has a preliminary solution. What’s yours?
Arclite
It’s amazing how long Sully sticks to his guns despite being absolutely on the wrong side of this issue from a logical and rational perspective. It’s as if Sully and I were bored hanging out and I suggested we take his car, fill it with gas, play mailbox baseball, and drive it into the river. Okay, one of those ideas is constructive, but none of the rest. Would any sane person suggest I had a good starting point to eliminate my boredom?
schrodinger's cat
As a woman I don’t find Paul Ryan hot. His brow always seems to be furrowed, like a student who when put on spot by the teacher is trying to desperately think of the right answer. Even more curious than his supposed hotness is his reputation among the villagers for being smart and serious.
Is it because most of the villagers are neither smart nor cute and utterly lack any seriousness themselves?
Just Some Fuckhead
Did I ever mention me and Jimmy is buds?
Tonybrown74
@schrodinger’s cat:
I agree. It’s kinda icky watching Sullivan getting his T-back moist over him. I can almost smell the musk through the internets …
patroclus
I want Bill Maher to specifically ask Mr. Sullivan to respond to James Fallows’ comments regarding Ryan’s monstrosity tonight on Real Time.
I’m under 55 but my two brothers and sister are now over 55. Under Ryan’s plan, they get a Medicare guarantee and I get a salty “voucher” to suck.
Just Some Fuckhead
@cleek:
The problem with this theory is that government isn’t spending money that other people would otherwise have, they are spending money that exists because they printed it up new.
Sasha
@Overtaxed:
TO ALL COMMENTATORS:
Please don’t feed the troll. Thank you.
Omnes Omnibus
@Overtaxed: Our plan has been put out there many times. Not my fault if you don’t pay attention.
sukabi
@Arclite: if Sully was the only one in the car when it went into the river, yes it’s a very constructive way to relieve your boredom.
Arclite
@schrodinger’s cat: Glee is a TV show. http://www.fox.com/glee/
Overtaxed
So…still now Democrat plan to stop Medicare from bankrupting the country.
Ruckus
@El Cid:
Political leaders are experts on bullshit.
MikeB
I’m sure someone else has linked to Taibbi’s take on this, but it’s
hilarious and spot on as usual…
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/tax-cuts-for-the-rich-on-the-backs-of-the-middle-class-or-paul-ryan-has-balls-20110407
Stillwater
@Overtaxed:
Ruckus
@Sasha:
Must
Resist
Will get overwhelmed with nonsense and bile
Must Resist!
kdaug
@El Cid:
Oh, no, my friend.
They are extraordinarily gifted in the arts of doublespeak, duplicity, and deception.
Their sine qua non is knowing who to be subservient to, and who to step upon.
And as it is a moving line, they are also adept at hypocrisy.
dmsilev
@Overtaxed:
The Democratic plan is to render all Internet trolls down for soup stock and Soylent Green. And feed the resulting toxic brew to anyone who has ever worn a teabag hanging from their hat brim.
dms
Yutsano
@Overtaxed:
The White House proposed one. But that would require you acknowledging someone other than a big daddy Republican is sitting in the Big Chair.
Fact fail. Medicare cannot go bankrupt just like the US cannot go bankrupt.
Your “solution” is full of holes and inconsistencies that will cause disaster for all but the very wealthy in this country. That pie ain’t even closed to baked yet. Come back when you actually HAVE something.
@Sasha: I’m done. I promise. I blame boredom. This fucknut ain’t even a B lister anyway.
Martin
@Overtaxed: Ours is the plan that Republicans rejected because people making $250K per year are apparently barely making ends meet.
Villago Delenda Est
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
This, this, is an astute observation.
The “Marxists in Reverse” meme of Michael Lind is again in play.
Overtaxed
Chad N Freude
@Martin:
Statement corrected.
Martin
@Chad N Freude: Thank you.
Oh, and how much of the budget deficit is due to Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security? Exactly $0.
We could abolish all 3 and the deficit would still be sitting there.
Svensker
@Tonybrown74:
Ew. Ewwwww!
cyntax
@Brachiator:
Exactly so. Felix Salmon had an interesting point about this (or rather he was quoting the Loomis vice chairman):
[empahsis added]
schrodinger's cat
Neither inflation nor the budget deficit nor the debt nor the inflation (practically non-existent is the biggest problem the US is facing economically. It is the high unemployment rate. The Republican Plan does nothing to address this.
Stillwater
@Overtaxed: What do YOU call “running out of money” then?
Exactly. And what about the liberal media saying the GOP plan actually increases the deficit? Fucking bullshit. Those planless tax-and-spend losers sure are desperate.
Brachiator
@Overtaxed:
This is a fool’s game. Since Ryan’s plan is nonsense, there is no reason to offer an “alternative.”
Well, no, it won’t. But thanks for playing.
Overtaxed
Doing nothing will cause Medicare to stop functioning entirely in a few years.
Chad N Freude
@Overtaxed: Once upon a time, a President spoke of a single-payer system where the Government could negotiate with providers of health services and the manufacturers of medications.
bemused
@MikeB:
The first paragraph is hysterically funny and it’s how I see these people too. I remember the same condescending misfit types in high school and college. Taibbi must have had a great time writing it.
Maude
In NJ, the unemployment rate is higher than the national rate. The jerk in the Christie Admin said at a hearing that this is good because Christie eliminated 30,000 government jobs. Oh, and the former government workers can get re training the same as non government workers.
The only quetion I have is: Which circle of hell do the Republicans belong in?
Overtaxed
Of course, your party doesn’t have the balls to run on instituting a British-style healthcare system, because its unpopular.
What plan is your PARTY proposing? Or even your President?
Church Lady
I thought you weren’t going to mention Sullivan again today.
Yutsano
@Chad N Freude: Yeah but he also escalated a land war with Asia and advanced civil rights causes. He also dead.
@Overtaxed:
Unpopular with whom? The British? You just try taking away the NHS and see how long you last as a British politician. Not even the numbnuts they have as PM now would dare to do that. And BTW no one is proposing we create that in the US. I’m more partial to the Australian system, but even if we went the way of Switzerland I’d be happy.
sukabi
@Church Lady: I think he’s got this song stuck in his head…
cyntax
@Overtaxed:
Concern troll is concerned.
SFAW
I’m getting the feeling that “Overtaxed” is just the latest incarnation of Clowna/Lorna. You know, the troll who is barely literate, but is reeeelly, reeeelly gud at the “I know you are but what am I?” game, all the while being unable to understand what has been written by the commenters here. Or by Fallows. Or by anyone with an IQ above 73. Or by a bed of kelp. Or by [fill in your own].
Clowna, great to have you back. Nice to see that you haven’t gotten any smarter in the interim. Or should I type s..l..o..w..e..r so that you can follow along better? And it’s interesting that your moniker is such an apt description of
youryore “intellect” – did you choose it yourself?Moron.
Overtaxed
Still not hearing what the Democrat Party or POTUS is proposing as an alternative to Ryan’s plan.
God, sometimes negotiating with liberals is like negotiating with Palestinians–they refuse to even make a proposal of their own while calling everyone you make unacceptable.
Yutsano
@SFAW:
Fixteth.
Villago Delenda Est
@Overtaxed:
Someone needs to prepare a fire for you to go die in.
licensed to kill time
Hoovertacks is “serious”.
cyntax
@Overtaxed:
Pam, is that you? Is traffic down at Atlas’s Jugs?
Overtaxed
BTW, isn’t Fallows one of those useful idiots like Tom Friedman who gush praise for the Chinese political system? Excuse me if I don’t take someone who is cut from the same cloth as journalists in the 30s that told us how great Stalinism was seriously.
Redshirt
Cole’s safe word should be “Fisk”. Or is that Sully’s? So confused…
SFAW
And metaphorically sticking
youryore fingers in yore ears, of which just about all your comments have been examples, confirms even more to the rest of us that yore amoronmoran, Clowna. Or lazy. Or both.One can only hope that my proposal for Dumbfuckistan becomes a reality, so you can move there (if you don’t already live there) to be with yore “intellectual” equals.
And, please accept my humblest apologies for using words longer than two syllables or seven letters.
sukabi
@cyntax: think it might actually be Sully trolling…
Brachiator
@Overtaxed:
Ryan only pretends to have a plan. It’s a false solution in search of a problem.
Or, in terms you might be better able to understand. Let’s say that someone says “why don’t scientists respond to a creationist?”
Since the creationist is talking gibberish, there is nothing to respond to. Ryan’s plan is gibberish.
End of story.
Studly Pantload, Vibrant Trollbot for Obama
Wonderful commentary on the State of Our Commentary when pointing out the ridiculousness of a proposal with so many flaws you can see ’em from space is considered “going nuclear.”
@Sasha:
But, but, the low hanging fruit is so tempting. Look at it, just * hanging * there!
Arclite
@MikeB: Great piece by Matt Taibbi, thanks. Always enjoy his stuff.
SFAW
Yutsano –
Thanks. I am embarrassed that I missed it. Twice.
Of course, Clowna/Overwrought is a double-strength moran. (Yeah, I know, not much of an excuse.)
ppcli
@Brachiator:
Obama and the Democrats need to keep hitting this.
Yes, Yes, a hundred times yes. Thank you Brachiator. Let’s all repeat this a hundred times on every site until somebody gets the message. In 2010, the Republicans ran on a) Jobs, Jobs, Jobs. b) The “Democrat Party” will cut x dollars from Medicare. You can look it up. It’s all there on the internet. Easy to check. Now they are trying a policy that will cost jobs, and getting orgasmic over a proposal to scrap Medicare altogether. The absence of any comment about this from our media stenographers is no surprise, but I would have thought the Obama Administration would at least have a bit better instinct for self-preservation.
We had a taste of this “philosophy of government” during the complete 8-year debacle that was the Bush administration. It was a complete catastrophe. All these guys like Ryan were cheering along. Why would we want a double – dose of it?
Overtaxed
Cool story, bro !
cyntax
@sukabi:
Ah… that actually makes a little sense. There’s a certain petulance to these postings that’s reminiscent of Jr High School.
kdaug
@Brachiator: Ah, yes. Reminiscent of M_C’s “discussions” with the professor IN FRANCE (or wherever, don’t care to look it up).
Stillwater
@Overtaxed: they refuse to even make a proposal of their own while calling everyone you make unacceptable.
How overtaxed are you Overtaxed? Are you overtaxed to the point you can’t put food on your family? (If so, there’s some excellent government programs you should look in to.)
SFAW
Stillwater –
“Overtaxed” is a description of her mental capacity, not her fiscal situation. Well, based on the “quality” and “intelligence” of her responses, that is.
Ruckus
I propose that we hire a luxury cruse ship to take, for free, all those folks who are overtaxed, and send them to a country that has, no health care, no welfare, no retirement fund, little to no taxes and not much in the way of government. That is what they are asking for, why not give it to them? Of course I am speaking of Somalia, although there are probably other places they could go as well. And yes I have some place in mind. As all of their problems are caused by taxation and big government this would solve all their problems and as a bonus, make this a better place as well.
Ash Can
Wait, we’re supposed to take someone with a handle of “Overtaxed” seriously?
No one is “overtaxed” in this country. No one.
arguingwithsignposts
Damn, is sully still trying to defend his POS swat at Cole? The man is unhinged. He wouldn’t know serious if it bit him in the ass.
Nathanlindquist
There’s a distinction I want to make that explains why I kinda sympathize with Andrew Sullivan but mostly agree with John Cole. Ryan’s plan has balls. But its not serious. There’s a difference.
It has balls in the way some kid in Tony Soprano’s crew who has become too full of shit and cocky after pulling off a big job has balls. And Tony looks at him like he’s gonna have to whack him because now he’s got a big head and the FBI is going to catch on to the whole racket.
Ryan went way out on a limb by putting medicare into this plan. That took balls, way more than Bush’s social security plan did. But Ryan’s problem is that he’s either completely believing his own bullshit, or betting people won’t catch on to the bullshit. He went too far, and I’m glad he did it. It might finally scare the democrats into waking up and getting some balls of their own.
But that’s very different from serious. Even if both parties find their balls, the Dems will get serious about governing. Ryan won’t.
SFAW
Ruckus –
Moved and seconded. All opposed? Hearing no one in opposition, motion passes unanimously.
See ya, Clowna, don’t let the door hit you in the ass/head on the way out. Have fun in Somalia!
Svensker
@Villago Delenda Est:
Heh.
I love that Overtaxed thinks he’s “negotiating” with us. It’s like the crazy person who comes into the room and demands “give me the Mandala bratango!” fifty times and then complains because no one will.
Quiddity
@vernonlee: Sullivan knows he screwed up. At least in terms of his reputation for being a thinking person (that is, he may still like Ryan’s plan but can’t say so anymore). Instead, he’s frantically trying to get into minutia of entitlements/budgets so that he’s seen discussing topics that are miles away from the “official” Ryan plan.
I don’t think it will work. Sullivan’s pro-Ryan posts this week will be thrown in his face for years (as will David Brooks’). Last year Sullivan was friendly to the two deficit commissions, and it rankled those liberal readers of his blog. He even wrote about it (“I’m sensing a break…”). And since the debt as an issue died down, he returned to their good graces. But Sullivan has really stepped in it this time. (1) Praise for a plan that basically trades $4 trillion in benefits for the elderly and poor for tax cuts for the rich. (2) Complete and utter innumeracy. (3) “Shared sacrifice” which isn’t, and even if shared is morally repugnant since we all didn’t share in the good times these last 30 years. (4) Casual remarks that “cruelty” is what the math demands. (5) Feigned obtuseness in the face of repeated sober assessments of Ryan and alternatives. (6) Dismissal of Ryan’s previous budget-hoax stunts.
This is Sullivan’s 21st century version of the Bell Curve episode.
Brachiator
@schrodinger’s cat:
I hear it’s some kind of tee vee show, starring this guy</a.
Glee is also the past pluperfect of glue.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Quiddity:
Inquiring minds want to know: So, just how many centuries do we have to give the Tory bastard a mulligan on before he is shunned in polite company? In an Oakeshottean way, of course.
Nathanlindquist
When you are a pundit and your job is to spend every day watching politicians hedge, and pretend they don’t want to hurt anyone, and avoid revealing the whole con, when someone comes out and releases a plan that says what they really think I’m sure it makes you want to applaud. Even if its totally fucking evil. Its human nature to like someone who has balls. I wish they would use the word balls instead of “courage” or “brave”. Its more accurate. On top of a truth that is this fucking evil to begin with it takes balls to tell lies that are this big.
Calouste
@arguingwithsignposts:
Sully is serious in the context of the student debating club where you start out with the premise that pet rocks really are animals, and build your argument from there. If you just ignore reality, you can argument anything within an entire serious logical framework.
PaulW
One thing I’ve done is 1) not visit Sullivan’s new site and 2) removed my link to his Atlantic page from my blog.
Say goodbye to my traffic, Mr. Sullivan.
If you’re reading this, Mr. Sullivan, I would like to point out that if you want a REAL Republican to show bravery, have that Republican tell a Club for Growth Tea
BaggerParty rally that “hey, rolling back on some of Bush-era tax cuts to help reduce the deficit might work.” That would be real bravery out of a Republican.Chad N Freude
@Overtaxed: Perhaps you should refrain from calling Fallows a Stalinist until after you’ve read some of his writings. Pardon me, I meant to say post-Maoist-state-capitalismist, not Stalinist. My bad.
Good lord, why am I responding to a troll? My bad, indeed.
Yutsano
@Chad N Freude: New toy phenomenon. That and boredom, at least on my part.
Just Some Fuckhead
@PaulW: Shit, anyone can demagogue the rich. Real bravery is kicking a cripple or someone less fortunate.
gnomedad
@Overtaxed:
No.
Scamp Dog
@Calouste: Yep. He can come up with an “argument” to support whatever he wants. When it’s something like torture, he can come up with some very good stuff. When it’s Republican or Tory economic nonsense, he does whatever he has to.
I’m still trying to come up with a theory about how he picks what he supports. With most Repubs, it’s just the opposite of what the Dems want. It’s really not worth the effort, so I don’t put much time into it.
arguingwithsignposts
My Photoshop contribution to Mr. Ryan’s Unicorn Coloring Book (inspired by a commenter at LGM).
kay
@Overtaxed:
Happy to help. You’re welcome.
It’s really, really annoying to me that conservatives spent the entire 2 year health care debate screaming and lying, so missed the whole thing.
What’s worse, conservatives have spent every moment since November demonizing every single cost control that it’s in the health care law. You’re still at it. Conservatives in Congress are fighting Medicare cost control every step of the way.
I don’t think it’s fair that you’re now demanding information on Medicare and the PPACA.
We all discussed this, endlessly. It’s difficult (and boring) bringing you and Andrew Sullivan up to speed.
Read it. You can critique the cost controls if you like, but this stubborn insistence that they’re not there is horseshit.
arguingwithsignposts
@kay: Boom goes the dynamite!
“Overtaxed” is like a kitteh toy compared to the real trolls around here.
Mnemosyne
@kay:
Apparently “LALALALALALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU!” now counts as reasoned discourse from the right.
Yutsano
@kay:
Kay, I lurve you, you do the work of angels every day, but expecting a troll to enlighten themselves is like trying to get blood from a turnip. If it ever happens, you call someone.
jcricket
@PaulW: I did the same. What’s the point? Sully’s wrong on everything that matters until it’s too late to matter, and it’s always the same “evolution”. There’s no point to reading him – you get no insight into the mind of anyone that matters.
If you must learn something it’s that the “seriousness” of a budget is inversely proportional to how much Sully likes it, basically.
But if we must, here’s my plan.
1) Bush tax cuts expire, add a bunch of new tax brackets at $500k, $1m, $2m, $5m, $10m, but eliminate AMT.
2) Capital gains rate back to 25% and financial transaction fee for short-term stock sales
3) Corporate tax loopholes all shut-down but rate lowered (marginal rates go up, actually)
4) Eliminate wage cap for SS and tack on extra % on income above $250k. While we’re at it, limit the mortgage deduction to the first $500k or $1m of the mortgage.
5) Fold Medicaid into Medicare and make Medicare for all (single payer). Bringing 100s of millions of people into a system that primarily serves the sick/old/poor will shore up the finances but good.
6) Cut defense spending in half, mainly focusing on big weapons programs and foreign bases.
7) While we’re at it – force banks and investment houses to split up, lower leverage levels for banks to 8-1 and investment houses to 16-1 or 12-1. Ban CDSes. Nationalize the ratings agencies and drastically increase the SEC and IRS budgets.
Done. (yes, #7 not specifically budget related, but we end up with massive bubbles and recessions due to financial industry shenanigans, so let’s try and stop them).
jcricket
It’s not a solution – it’s a pretend solution. It simply shifts the costs onto people who can’t afford it. Those people won’t stop getting sick, they’ll just go bankrupt, sending massive shockwaves through the entire American economy.
That’s like me saying, “I have a preliminary solution to the nuclear disaster in Japan. We simply take all the radiation out of the nuclear plant and funnel it into open air pits around Japan. No more meltdown!”
Mnemosyne
@jcricket:
There is a loophole I’d be willing to create for corporations. If they make actual capital investments — as in, building real buildings and investing in equipment — I would be willing to give them a tax break on that. But we’ve got to get rid of this bullshit of treating stock trading like capital investment as though it has the same effect on the economy as building real stuff does.
arguingwithsignposts
@jcricket:
More like “We simply take all the fuel rods out of the nuclear plant and give them to individual Japanese. No more meltdown!”
arguingwithsignposts
@Mnemosyne:
Also, I’d kill the off-shore tax dodge and penalize them if they tried to sell shit in the US after off-shoring profits. But I’m marxist like that.
arguingwithsignposts
This is not the double post you’re looking for.
Woodrowfan
have you ever noticed that Randoids always judge “legitimate” government functions only by what it is that THEY want? Funny that.
sukabi
@Woodrowfan: not surprising at all,… it’s how they read and interpret the constitution and the bible… the only “legitimate” parts are those that will allow them the freedom to do exactly what THEY want, regardless of how it will effect others.
Wolfdaughter
@Overtaxed:
You didn’t read what John said, did you?
MikeB
@jcricket: An excellent plan!
All we have to do is find a “courageous” and “serious” Congressional Democrat to
propose this, and wait for the deafening applause from the pundits.
Seriously, this is a good plan, the snark is for the Dems and the media.
Omnes Omnibus
@Wolfdaughter: You are very patient with, and kind to, the dimmer denizens of the corner of the blogosphere.
Kilkee
@Chad N Freude: And that as taxable, not gross income…..
Arclite
@jcricket: This plan sounds good to me.
Kane
There’s still a way for Sully to save face.
He can claim that this has all been an elaborate and extended April fools joke. He can explain that by his secretly and courageously playing the Devil’s advocate, he has helped to extend the conversation to expose the ridiculous arguments for Ryan’s proposal.
Of course, Sully can always he choose to eat crow. Again.
Wolfdaughter
@Nathanlindquist:
Actually, if someone demonstrates “balls”, i.e., chutzpah, nerve, whatever, if it’s about something not harmful, or if it’s based upon that person being more competent than most in a particular area, or if it goes against type, then I might find it amusing, at least, or perhaps admirable.
But for me, whether or not it’s harmful makes a difference. One can certainly say that many TPers and other pols on the far right demonstrate “balls”. I find their ballsiness to be, to put it most charitably, extremely annoying. Not in the least bit admirable.
I was on a jury some years back, where the defense attorney was defending a slimebag, and was extremely combative and aggressive when questioning witnesses who didn’t testify the way he liked. He also swaggered and hauled in all sorts of red herrings. We found the defendant guilty, and it wasn’t exactly a hard decision.
But some of my fellow jurors admired the guy and averred that they’d like him on their side if they were ever charged. Not me. He pissed me off bigtime. Had the facts been on his side, I would have voted to acquit the defendant, while still being pissed.
I also hate it when lawyers bring up irrelevancies in the attempt to sway the jury. This lawyer came up to me afterwards and asked if he could have done anything differently. I told him not in this case, because the evidence was clear. But I also told him pointblank that he pissed me off and why.
Wolfdaughter
@Omnes Omnibus:
Thanks, OO.
Actually, once I get past the first reaction of being utterly gobsmacked at the astonishing stupidity and obtuseness, and past being pissed off (not always easy), I remind myself that they are probably subtly brain-damaged.
There was a study done a few years ago (OK, it was using college kids, gotta be careful about generalizing) but the study showed that conservatives have much more difficulty integrating new information into their frameworks than we liberals (or independents) do.
To be fair, most of us resist new info that doesn’t fit with our most cherished beliefs, and most of us seek confirmation bias, but liberals and indies can be dragged, kicking and screaming, into acknowledging and integrating new facts. Conservatives will resist this even when it’s something entirely peripheral to their general belief system. And if the new info is central, well…
I also think that most of them are incapable of seeing a big picture. They focus on some little detail that resonates with a hobby horse, and ride away on that little horse, obviously going nowhere, but using up plenty of energy while doing so.
So I try to feel sorry for them and to pray for them (Episcopalian, everyone’s path is valid, yadda yadda).
hrprogressive
Because it can’t be said enough:
Fuck Andrew Sullivan.
I’ll take a heaping second, third, and fourth helping of “Unhinged rants on the rich” with a double side of Tunch photos, please.
Beulahmo
John needs the time and space to go through this process regarding Sullivan; frankly, so do I. We’ve been through similar episodes with Sullivan, but this time seems different. The stuff he’s doing to defend his silliness has reached a new, Rovian level of disgraceful.
For a long time, I’ve found it irritating and exhausting to witness Sully going through one of his episodes, and it usually follows a pattern: first, he’ll take a ridiculous, indefensible position on something; next, he’ll get showered with criticism to which he responds by digging deeper, making increasingly ridiculous and defensive arguments; then, he’ll eventually have nearly everybody he respects irritated and making fun of him; and finally, sometimes half-assedly, he’ll relent.
It’s exhausting and silly. Sully is capable of doing some fine thinking; but too often he indulges some stupid fucking emotional response he’s having, even at the expense of his credibility. When he finally comes around, he’s given some slack, and he resumes his position as Esteemed Serious Blogger, who regularly communicates with other serious public policy analysts.
So maybe the good-faith bloggers, like John, who’ve until now been willing to cut Sully some slack, are wondering if it’s worth it to continue. I don’t think it’s a conclusion any of them would reach hastily.
Tom Hilton
@Overtaxed: It’s called the motherfucking PPACA, you dumbass motherfucker. And it does infinitely more to hold down Medicare costs than Ryan’s unicorns & leprichauns pseudo-plan (infinitely more because Ryan’s plan does nothing to that end).