I thought one of benefits of being an atheist is that you didn’t have to care about church camp. Not so: “the children of Atheists, Freethinkers, Humanists, Brights, or whatever other terms might be applied to those who hold to a naturalistic, not supernatural world view” can go to Camp Quest. This is one of the many things I learned after visiting Blag Hag, the blog of an interesting, intelligent capital-A Atheist who was on the Savage Love podcast this week.
As a non-card-carrying, definitely lowercase atheist, I don’t get organized Atheism. I don’t want to attend seminars, read magazines or drop in at meetups to discuss how I don’t believe in God, Buddha or Krishna. I realize that people feel really beat down by the oppressive Christianity in our society and may want some support, but I don’t see how organizing some kind of counter quasi-religion is a happy solution.
I thought the point of atheism was that you just didn’t have to waste your time on the bullshit that occupies the life of true believers. You don’t have to care whether you’re going to heaven or hell, or wonder if some sky fairy will smite you for this or that indiscretion. Your sexual experience isn’t clouded by guilt over whether the placement of your sexual organs is in accordance with the oral tradition of some illiterate desert tribe. You don’t need to spend years of hard work to get schools to teach your horseshit theory of how humans were beamed into existence. And, as for the disposition of the contents of the uteri of every gravid woman on the planet: Absolutely none of your concern.
Those are all wonderful benefits, but the big win is that you don’t have to sit in an uncomfortable chair for physical hours that stretch into mental eternities, listening to someone talk about religion. To put that back in your life seems to me to miss a major benefit of the whole enterprise.
And what the fuck is a Bright?
jibeaux
Paula Poundstone had a line about how atheists were underappreciated, because they never bugged you at home on a Sunday morning just to tell you there’s no God.
Guster
Brights, hell, I don’t even know the difference between capital and lowercase A atheists.
Woodrowfan
basically a “Bright” is a snotty atheist. It’s the atheist equivalent of the Xtain who takes great pride in telling everyone how big a Xtian they are and much they love them some Jeezus…
PopeRatzy
I fall into a similar category, I just do not care. Is there a Gawd, I don’t care, is there not a Gawd, I don’t care. Congratulations to those of you who care one way or the other as you are people of “faith”. In the mean time STFU, I just don’t care.
Guster
@PopeRatzy: Are you a capital-a Apathist or a lowercase apathist?
birthmarker
Doesn’t that need to congregate about something speak to the human condition that led us to form religious thoughts in the first place?
andybud
I wish we had a Camp Quest in my area, based on what I’ve read about it. In addition to the usual camp activities, they have the following:
Astronomy
Biology & Evolution
Critical Thinking
Ecology & Environmental Science
Ethics
Famous Freethinkers/Humanist Heroes
Fossil Hunting
Invisible Unicorn Challenge
Philosophy
Science Experiments
World Religions
…so, a camp where my kids can learn about science, critical thinking, comparative theology, and know they’re not alone – now or throughout history – in not believing in God?
Sign me up (or, well, my kids).
cleek
i think some people just like to organize and congregate and will use any commonality as an excuse.
look at Mensa: it’s basically an organization of people who do well on standardized tests.
cmorenc
The problem isn’t religion or having a belief system in some godlike higher being that may have interest in the universe and life-forms he/she/it created.
Rather, it’s needy role many people give to religion to provide a definitive authority and structure and prepackaged explanation to their lives and prepackaged way to mitigate their flaws, so they don’t have to figure these difficult things out for themselves. They then take that belief in the authority to mean the rightfulness of that authority as the justification for wanting to impose it on the rest of the world, to reassure themselves that they’re on the right side of serving the authoritative deity, trying to straighten out the mass of others on the ignorant or wrong side of their constructed religious deity.
Imperial Self-righteousness is what you’ve got, in a nutshell.
WereBear
Some people become atheists out of an interest in philosophy, so I think that would continue, and they like to seek out others with that interest.
If I was raising my child at least non-religiously, sending them to a camp that helped them understand, and defend, that choice would be very useful to them, as well as making friends with the like-minded. Just like any other camp.
Bob
The concept of a “lower case atheist” is new to me, but really fits well into a discussion I had just yesterday. I was “caught” at work reading an article about atheism related to Pat Tillman and I was asked if I was “…becoming an atheist?” by a Fundie co-worker.
I had no interest in discussing this with them, so I deflected by saying you don’t become an atheist, you just stop being everything else. I did not realize that what I was also saying is that I am not an Atheist, but and atheist.
wonkie
There are people who feel a need to join together with likeminded people in some sort of spiritual activity. A subset of atheists are like that. (Yes, atheists can be spiritual).
I was raised Unitarian. Our church (sort of ) services (sort of) were mostly about like minded people gettig to gether to reinforce each other in a spiritual (sort of) context. The likemindedess was mostly about being Democrats, that being the common denominator. Attitudes about God ranged from atheist thorough agostic to a few deists. Not that religion was ever discussed much. There was agreement to disagree on that.
cleek
atheist / Atheist : libertarian / Libertarian
one is a mindset. the other is an evangelical political position.
jibeaux
I just wanted a camp for my son where he could do rafting and rock climbing and hiking and whatnot without joining the Boy Scouts and without a Christian theme. As far as the outdoorsy sleepover experiences go, harder than you might think. Plenty of day camps, but around here the overnight ones are often associated with churches or the Y.
Guster
Huh. I’ve always thought I was an atheist Jew (though that also seemed redundant, sorta) but now I’m wondering if I’m an Atheist jew.
alwhite
A Bright is a skeptic, Not sure if Randi founded the organization but he is one of the driving forces. No meetings that I am aware of but they do send out emails alerting people to various frauds & swindlers. I support it in hopes of reducing the numbers of frauds & swindlers.
Thinking about it I guess the group is an failure given there doesn’t seem to be fewer grifters but more.
gex
A Bright is an insufferable asshole who happens to be an atheist and somewhat intelligent (at least in their own estimation).
Joey Maloney
@cleek:
…and are insufferably and inexplicably proud of it.
Superking
Can we get some Capture the Flag at that camp? And Swimming? Or how about Camp Olympics? These kids are probably nerdy and ostracized already, do they have to do science experiments over the summer?
I used to love to argue with people about religion, but really, what’s the point? If it makes them happy, more power to them. I would like them to be able to engage and function in the real world, but I think most people can do that, even the religious.
Warren Terra
A science-based summer camp can be a fantastic thing – I went to a great one, the name of which escapes me, on a marshy wildlife preserve in the Puget Sound area one summer in the 1980s. And intolerance of magical thinking, if not evangelized atheism, can easily be a part of a scientific education. But the point is to organize around something positive, not the absence of religion. I’m sure this summer camp isn’t chock full of sessions where they point our how dumb religion and superstition are – but that seems to be how they’ve chosen to advertise it. How unfortunate.
patrick II
I took my kids to sunday school and services at the Ethical Society for awhile. There are other reasons to think of the larger community and how we should act ethically and for the common good other than a belief in god. I guess small a athiests don’t find that useful because perhaps they believe in the natural goodness of man and don’t think that we need to think about just pure ethical acting in itself.
For myself, it may have been my early catholicism that caused me to consider many of my actions flawed and perhaps it would be a good idea to congregate with others and discuss what is a good way to live in the real world.
jibeaux
@Joey Maloney:
My favorite story about a Mensa conference was a reporter who reported that the coffee urn ran out of coffee, and he watched numerous attendees try it and then get something else.
The reporter then got a cup of coffee by tipping the urn forward.
arguingwithsignposts
@gex: I remember reading an article (nyt perhaps) about the “brights” several years back. It’s branding in the worst sense of the word, and whoever thought that would be a good descriptor is, well, just not that bright.
ChrisZ
The Brights thing is just a failed PR campaign. Some random people decided that they wanted a positive sounding word to describe themselves, rather than the negative sounding “atheist.” So they came up with “bright,” which I guess they didn’t realize sounded arrogant as all hell. Some people bought into the rebranding idea and so encouraged it, but it never caught on and almost no one encourages it anymore.
Anyway, I think the obvious answer to your question is that some people think it’s really great not to have to go to church and jesus camp and whatever because they’re atheists, and some people miss the community, they just don’t buy the beliefs. To each her own.
stuckinred
You might enjoy Buddhism Without Beliefs.
gypsy howell
@cleek:
Haha, Joey Maloney just beat me to it.
My son has a new boss who is a member of mensa. I told him I’ve never met a mensa member who wasn’t a complete asshole, and generally socially retarded to boot. What kind of person feels the need to join an organization whose whole raison d’etre is to let other people know you’re smart according to some test?
Scott P.
They’re advertising to the parents, not the kids.
Ghanima Atreides
@mistermix
the opposite of a dim. It is from Dennets book.
Are you sure you wanna talk about this?
You are going to bring down a blogswarm of bioluddites raving about Murray’s old book.
Consider evolutionary theory of games. The entrance requirements for ja’amat atheist (tribe atheist) are IQ and education. The Dawkins/Harris position is that its hard for children to become atheists, because their parents brrainwash them them. Dawkins calls this child-abuse.
There is no EGT killer-app for atheism to acquire reps. Islam has defense against proselytization, christianity has proselytization, jews have birthright membership. Most people “convert” to atheism in college, children are sort of uninvadable until they get to college. ;)
Camp Quest is a school for child atheists, for extending ja’amat atheist to the young. Parents will get spoofed into sending their kids to get educational advantages while being oblivious to the real goal– to convert young children to atheism.
Persia
@cmorenc: Yeah, I mean:
One of these things is fun and educational. One is a stunt. If I wanted my kid to be preached at, I’d send them to church.
PurpleGirl
@alwhite:Nope. The Wiki is your friend and a first place to start research.
From Wikipedia articles:
James Randi (born Randall James Hamilton Zwinge; August 7, 1928)[2] is a Canadian-American stage magician and scientific skeptic[3][4] best known as a challenger of paranormal claims and pseudoscience. Randi is the founder of the James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF). Randi began his career as a magician, as The Amazing Randi, but after retiring at age 60, he began investigating paranormal, occult, and supernatural claims, which he collectively calls “woo-woo.”
“The Brights” is something else.
The Brights Movement is a social movement that aims to promote public understanding and acknowledgment of the naturalistic worldview, including equal civil rights and acceptance for people who hold a naturalistic worldview. It was co-founded by Paul Geisert and Mynga Futrell in 2003. The movement aims to create an Internet constituency that will pursue the following aims:[1]
1. Promote public understanding and acknowledgment of the naturalistic worldview, which is free of supernatural and mystical elements.
2. Gain public recognition that persons who hold such a worldview can bring principled actions to bear on matters of civic importance.
3. Educate society toward accepting the full and equitable civic participation of all such people.
Persia
@jibeaux: What about 4-H? There’s a 4-H camp around us that has good reviews.
Bruce S
I’m often amazed at how some atheists sound as dumb as fundamentalists in discussing religion.
That aside, “Progressive” camps that focused on singing Woody Guthrie songs around a campfire rather than hymns were a common feature of the NYC Marxist Left over many decades – probably still are for a handful. As were long rituals expressing shared beliefs, involving either hard benches or uncomfortable folding chairs. Many, many people of widely disparate persuasions tend to congregate and share their deeply held concerns and/or biases…nothing new here.
SCooter
Groups like Freedom From Religion Foundation exist to keep church and state separate. The whole “we’re atheists, lets get together” is a way to recognize scientists, public officials, authors or other influential people who are brave enough to come out of the closet.
A lot of people are uncomfortable coming out to the neighbors or friends, and having a national advocacy group, with resources to draw upon, can be the difference of a lifetime.
A lot of atheists are no lifetime atheists. I happen to be. But many come from the clergy or from a very religious background. They really miss the positive, communal aspects of religious practice. Conventions, meetups, drinking skeptically, etc., are always to share in common non-belief (and usually do some positive, like charity work).
Ash Can
Andybud and WereBear have it. Especially since kids being raised with an atheistic viewpoint are likely to be subjected to opprobrium from insensitive peers, there’s great value to a place where 1) they’re not alone, and 2) not only are they not weird, they’re perfectly cool. It may seem like overkill to a grownup, but programs like these are great for kids.
joes527
@WereBear:
Sounds _exactly_ how religionists indoctrinate their kids. Teaching a child to defend the conclusions that you are feeding them, and making sure that they mix with kids with the “right kind of beliefs” isn’t any more palatable for ~god than it is for god.
Mark S.
Debbie Schlussel proudly advertises that she’s a member of Mensa.
Just Some Fuckhead
The reason for mensa is because it’s hard as hell to work your IQ into a conversation but it’s easy to just say something like “Yeah, gotta run, mensa meeting tonight.” or “Me and one of my mensa pals once..”
I’m not a member of mensa so I’m forced to resort to awkward phrasings like “Wow, is it really a hundred degrees out here? 50 more degrees and it will almost be as smart as me!” or “The reason for mensa is because it’s hard as hell to work your IQ into a conversation..”
Chris
@PopeRatzy:
Word up.
Ghanima Atreides
Think of Camp Quest as a private school for the religion of atheism.
But the entrance reqs are not just parental SES….but cognitive ability of the child.
How elitist is that?
lool
;)
techno
I grew up in a parsonage. I wanted religion OUT OF MY LIFE by the time I was 12.
But as I grew older, I have discovered that there are a LOT of folks who want to be religious for some reason or other. Have no idea why. So now some clown wants to organize an atheist “Bible Camp.” This IS depressing. Kind of lends legitimacy to the idea the atheists and Jehovah’s Witnesses are about equally annoying.
jibeaux
@Persia:
I found one that looks pretty good, but I definitely will keep that in mind for future years. It looks like there are several in our state. Unless I’m at the State Fair, I kind of forget the existence of 4-H, which is unfortunate on my part.
bleh
I don’t want to attend seminars, read magazines or drop in at meetups to discuss how I don’t believe in God, Buddha or Krishna.
Just to keep things in perspective, God and Krishna are supernatural, but Buddha was an actual person whose existence really isn’t a question.
magurakurin
I’d just like to point out that you don’t have to be an atheist to enjoy these benefits. One can have meaningful spiritual beliefs that aren’t atheistic and completely ignore all the bullshit that is Religion. I basically totally agree with you and think just like you, except that I don’t think we are alone here. But that is merely my own personal opinion and it is of no concern to you or anyone else and has no bearing on anything other than my own personal thoughts before I fall asleep at night. Atheists who go on and on about there certitude about the non existence of God are just as droll and tiresome as Born-Again Bible Thumpers.
I’m with you. Fuck all that shit and more or less keep your opinions to yourself about the whole damn thing.
Karen S.
Like others have mentioned, I think the social aspect of camp is a draw.
When I was a kid, my family were active in the local United Methodist church. I enjoyed Sunday school, the youth fellowship group and all the activites connected to that group. The actual church services were okay because I’ve always loved music. I can’t ever recall a time I believed in God even when I was active in that church. I still don’t believe, but I remember quite fondly the potlucks, talent shows, picnics and ice cream socials I went to at that church. I doubt I would know anything of the surreal wonders of molded jello salads or the anarchic fun of turning a church sanctuary into haunted house (no, not the fundie anti-gay/anti-choice/anti-sex kind) without having grown up in that church. Maybe Camp Quest is a way for some kids to be with families like their own, even if only for a week or two out of the year.
cleek
@Mark S.:
the execrable “Vox Day”, too
Joel
I went to a YMCA camp with a bunch of atheist jewish kids.
Poopyman
@Superking: “Have to” do science experiments? Hell, to be able to do actual science experiments instead of the pre-cooked stuff they get in school is heaven! I was one of those kids. (Not my cert, but that was one of the years I went.)
I remember religion being no big deal at all as a kid. We had all types in the neighborhood and at school. This was during the Kennedy years, too. Is it such a big deal to kids these days? Common sense and faith in kids tell me no. Am I right?
arguingwithsignposts
@Ghanima Atreides: I wonder if they teach the kids at these camps to type in proper sentences to defend their beliefs.
arguingwithsignposts
Btw, just to get it out of the way, you know who else had summer camps for the youth?
mistermix
@bleh: Hey, yet another fact that I don’t have to give a shit about!
qtip
Ah, right…teaching science and critical thinking skills to children is just like teaching them religion.
Joey Maloney
@PopeRatzy: You’re an “apatheist”.
@Mark S.: Really, what else needs to be said?
I’m reading a lot of uninformed put-downs of this Camp Quest thing, at least of its ideals. If you check out their website (linked by the OP) and read their mission statement and FAQs, there’s nothing there which suggests they’re “evangelizing” for atheism. It sounds like a summer camp without a religious orientation and with lots of science-related activities. I wish I’d had something like that when I was 9. From the FAQ page:
(FYWP in advance if the blockquote formatting comes out screwed up.)
Ghanima Atreides
@magurakurin:
but think about how clever and exploitive this app is! Even bornagains and evangelicals love their children and want them to succeed. Wouldn’t it be better for the world if more children became atheists?
That is Dawkins point.
Spread atheism to kill religion.
You can also think of it as recruitment…or a draft even. ja’amat atheist extends an invitation to membership to young, high cognitive ability children with high parental SES, instead of just college students, who are already selected for cognitive ability and parents that can afford college tuition.
;)
stuckinred
@Joel: Y camp here is described by a parent as “The Lord of the Flies with a little prayer thrown in”. All I know is that the little grabbers make a mess out of my noon swim!
Joel
@Just Some Fuckhead: PhDs are a much simpler option. I hear University of Phoenix sells them these days.
Just Some Fuckhead
I’d be interested to know if the atheist camps are as rife with pedophiles as the so-called Christian camps.
...now I try to be amused
@gypsy howell:
Probably apocryphal but still true:
The founder of Mensa supposedly said that many highly intelligent people are capable of socializing on their own; for the rest there’s Mensa.
Ghanima Atreides
@Joey Maloney:
Not openly, lol. How many good xtian families would send their children?
Camp Quest is evangelizing for the IQ gradient.
What parent will admit that their child is not smart?
Its quite elegant, really.
Its stealth evangelizing for cognitive ability.
Its fitness selection for IQ and parental SES, because i betcha Camp Quest is not cheap, even tho they may give scholarships….to HIGH IQ candidates.
hahahah!
it is beautiful really.
ken
The unicorn game really is an F-U to believers.
look up “invisible unicorn challenge” on google.
It’s funny to imagine kids are playing this.
Ken
Cris (without an H)
Both sides do it!!
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
@Superking:
how about a summer camp about summer camp, where they teach practical joking and shennanigans, and recite lines, scenes and tropes from favorite summer camp movies, and watch those movies at night?
mistermix’s view of organized Atheism or bigNogod , sounds like the ironic musings of john waters and others about gay marriage.
i have a brother who joined the elks. some folks need to have things a bit more organized than others, including their leisure time and hobbies.
Ghanima Atreides
@arguingwithsignposts: doubt it.
i dont defend my religious beliefs do i?
i was raised catholic, turned atheist in middle school. and reverted to islam in college.
im atypical.
Dawkins would say…ABOMINATION!
I should be St. Alia of the Knife.
;)
still smarting over the libertarian reacharound EDK gave you?
hahahaha
Ryan Cunningham
The point of Camp Quest is to give kids a secular alternative to Bible Camp.
The point of your post seems to be trashing on people actually doing something to make the lives children better. Instead of whining on your blog, why not stop being an asshole and pitch in? Your lazy snark doesnt make you better than them, and it isn’t helping anyone.
Joey Maloney
@Ghanima Atreides: If my eyes were the size of beachballs, I still couldn’t roll them enough to respond to this.
Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac
Athiest groups are there for several reasons. There are two in my area, one is a political movement, where they help fund legal battles and political fights against theocracy and church/state issues. The other is a non-profit who just gets people together for movie screenings, friendly chats, and basically a group to meet people who aren’t going to preach at you or who stop coming over the second they find out you’re not a christian (as has happened to me and my wife too many times to count). Yes, the discussion usually starts at christian overreach in the state – but then continues on to discussions about science, then off to personal hobbies.
It’s really a nice group for finding people who are usually more fact and science based, while being somewhat activist.
Heck, it’s a group that’s got more in common than a group of democrats.
Patrick Phelan
I see this a lot. Just to put in what I think about it, it’s that… it’s easy for your atheism not to be noticed. Like JSF’s rather amusing comment about Mensa. It’s certainly not, by far, the equivalent of gay pride marches showing how many gay people there are – because atheists are not abused and prejudiced against nearly as much as LGBTQ folk – but it’s got the same basic drives. You don’t go to weekly Atheism Meetings, you don’t say your Atheism Prayers, you don’t wear an Atheism Collar, you just… don’t believe in any gods for a while. And that means, yes, you don’t have to go out and go to particularly atheist thingummybobbos. But it also means your atheism is invisible, and people will assume you’re whatever they are.
(Two examples from my own life, since anecdotes are totally data shut up yes they are I’m not listening la la la la la:
ME: The problem with atheism is…
HIM: Man, you just can’t let atheists get to you, you know? Just let their hate slide off your back. Ignore them, there’s nothing there.
ME: …that people don’t… recognise you as being an atheist. Like I am.
and my mother’s encounter with one of her Internet buddies, who said, incredulously: “You can’t be an atheist! You’re nice!”)
So, yeah, I don’t think we should go proselytise, or try to indoctrinate anyone, or start up AtheChurch, The New Church Where You Sit In The Pews And Feel Smugly Superior. But I do think there’s a place for some quiet identification, just to let people know, hey, we’re here, we’re (occasionally) queer, we sleep in on Sunday. And a once-a-year camp with a lot of stuff that doesn’t involve atheism and a guarantee that you won’t end up singing hymns around a campfire about sinners burning in the lake of fire? That sounds pretty okay to me. Valuable, even. I support it.
arguingwithsignposts
@Ghanima Atreides:
lulz. do you kiss your mom with that lying mouth?
vaux-rien
@alwhite: IIRC “bright” as an umbrella term for atheists, agnostics, free-thinkers, skeptics, etc. was endorsed by Randi to the extent that he mentioned it favorably on his blog but it was deemed “not helpful” by consensus and fizzled out faster than “quirkyalone”, I think in the space of two or three weeks basically.
I can see the need for something similar, common ground rather than endless hair-splitting, but that one was very poorly chosen
burnspbesq
If you choose not to believe, that’s fine. Is the dismissive, disrespectful, condescending attitude toward people of faith really necessary? What do you gain from writing profoundly offensive shit like this post?
Just Some Fuckhead
*maneuvers couch behind Burns*
Joey Maloney
@burnspbesq:
No, it’s just lagniappe. You’re welcome.
Ghanima Atreides
@arguingwithsignposts: again, im a mevlevi sufi. we are forbidden to proselytize. mine is better FOR ME yours is better FOR YOU, and all paths are the one path. i cant proselytize christians or jews anyways– we all believe in the same Al-lah.
Everyone should believe what they do believe….even atheists and pagans.
If Al-lah intends for you to believe something else, it will appear in your path, and you will have the genome and phenome to become that.
bi la kayfah (it is understood)
Explaining EGT and defense against proselytization reflex in Islam is not trying to convert you. I’m explaining why muslims are immune to proselytization.
Truly, idc what you believe as long as you dont try to push it on others.
Common people repent from sin, the sufi repent from ignorance.
joes527
@qtip: You seem to be arguing with the voices in you head, not me. The quote that I was referencing was:
What part of sending your kids to camp so that they can defend the choice that you made in raising them == critical thinking?
joeyess
The Brights Movement has been around for a while. It’s an online movement dedicated to a naturalistic view of the world.
As far as atheism goes, and if anyone cares, I’m what is categorized as a “Gnu Atheist”. I dismiss out of hand any religion at all and openly point and laugh at the entire enterprise. I’m rude and uncaring about believers feelings or how I offend. In fact, I try to offend. Fuck ’em. Fuck ’em in the ear. Then fuck ’em in the other ear.
shortstop
Oh, my non-god, x1000. I would run screaming from such a gathering.
On the other hand, summer camp is teh awesome. GS camp is among the happiest of my childhood memories, and now that I’m an outdoors-loving adult, I frequently wish I could attend a non-thematic summer camp for grownups. Maybe I should start one.
shortstop
@Guster: Nice!
Ghanima Atreides
@Joey Maloney: why? Camp Quest is an elegant strategy to recruit “bright” children with high SES parents for tribe atheist well before they have an opportunity to become atheists in college.
Its like proofing kids against religious brainwashing.
I admire it.
Margarita
I take it you don’t have kids. The true believers will come to them, early and often. That’s what all the “culture war” shouting is about.
justawriter
To all the “Capital A Atheist”, Mensa, Brights, Camp Quest haters out there …
If you hate whiny, overly enthusiastic know-it-alls so much, what the fuck are you doing here?
arguingwithsignposts
@Ghanima Atreides:
You used the word “defend.” You defend Islamic countries that choose to oppress women, deny free speech, etc. and you defend the laws against proselytization all the fucking time. You can call it “explaining,” but it sure as hell sounds like “defending” to me.
joeyess
Absolute and total fucking nonsense. How can you have a “counter-quasi-religion” that is comprised of atheists? You know… people who don’t believe?We have no dogma. We have no god. We worship no special friend and we don’t gather together to whisper sweet nothings to non-entities in worship huts.
So, please, in the name of my sanity, stop referring to people who organize meet-ups and seminars, lectures and workshops, all in the name of lessening the influence of the deluded in the public sphere, of being involved in a “counter-quasi-religion”. It’s a stupid fucking argument.
Huckster
Was on a discussion group with a bunch of capital A Atheists for a while, but I had to let all that go. Seems like most of them had bad experiences with church at a young age, but can’t seem to find the structure church provided in their lives. Apparently they miss it because they obsess over it constantly, so they embrace orthodoxy to the point of being pedantic.
I joined to have a few laughs at the expense of the tali-baptists, but apparently Atheism is no laughing matter. But creating a religious type movement with a bunch of non-believers is pretty damn funny if you think about it
Poopyman
@techno: Atheists don’t come around door to door to proselytize for FSM.
Although that would be totally awesome! What would their version of “The Watchtower” look like, I wonder?
joeyess
@justawriter:
Ha ha ha….. That’s funny.
arguingwithsignposts
@joeyess:
Actually, i believe there are some atheists who do treat their beliefs as a de facto religious crusade (or whatever you want to call it).
It’s not enough that I don’t believe there is no god, you have to believe there is no god too. Which is really no different than the proselytizers on the other side.
shortstop
@Joel: That only works if you sign yourself PhD in irrelevant situations, and refer to/introduce yourself as “Dr. So-and-So” in social circumstances. Fortunately, too many people are up to that challenge.
Y’all raise some good points about atheists who catch shit from their neighbors needing a safe place. I also liked SCooter’s comment about formerly religious people missing the communality aspect. Since I was raised UU and currently live in a place where no one looks funny at you for being an unbeliever, I tend to forget how odd-man-out a lot of atheists are made to feel in their communities.
arguingwithsignposts
@joeyess: I have no problem with the aims of the Brights Movement, but it’s a stupid fucking name. As a brand, it sucks as much as “The Chosen” or “The Elites” or “Smarter than You.”
Librarian
“My lack of God, it’s Trotsky!”
Joey Maloney
@Poopyman:
Like this.
Christopher Wing
When most atheists get together, we talk about how dumb your religion is. Then we make jokes about the pope. Then we pee on communion wafers and replace sacramental wine with our own blood. We draw pictures of Mohammad, and laugh about Ganesha, because he’s a god AND an elephant. We close by singing the praises of the dark lord Satan, who is the one we secretly worship when no one is around.
But seriously, no matter what your religion is, it is stupid.
Son of Prog
If you like technical death metal, Atheist is a really good band. Otherwise, I avoid the Atheist tag a lot more than I avoided being the Roman Catholic tag (until my mother stopped caring).
Paul in KY
@Karen S.: Went to a Methodist Youth Camp when I was a teenager. It was called Aldersgate & was pretty nice, laid back, etc.
There were some definitely ‘non churchy’ activities that went on there ;-)
Good times…
qtip
@joes527:
First, Camp Quest doesn’t seem to do that directly, although you could argue their discussions about religion come close.
Second, the quote you mention says:
Why are you against helping kids understand their parents choice? If you were a parent and your kid asked you to explain your beliefs, wouldn’t you do so?
shortstop
@arguingwithsignposts: I think the problem atheists have with non-believing being compared to a religion is the same one scientists have with science being compared to a religion: It wrongly views everything through the lens of faith and non-empirical thinking and rejects that there are other paradigms.
I get that what you mean is that some (in my opinion, a routinely overestimated number of) atheists really want others to become atheists, too, but we need to find religion-neutral language to convey that notion. “Convert” and “evangelize” don’t work; “recruit” has other connotations. Ideas?
Chris
@Christopher Wing:
Bull. I have it on very good authority that atheists are actually a branch of Islam, though they don’t talk about it very much.*
(*Actual comment once read on right wing website, though I’ll be damned if I remember where).
mantis
No time to read the comments, so sorry if all this has been covered, but must respond.
I thought the point of atheism was that you just didn’t have to waste your time on the bullshit that occupies the life of true believers.
That is not the point of atheism. In fact, there is no point to atheism. It is a lack of a belief in something, not a cause. I’m an atheist not because I don’t want to get together with like-minded people, but because I see no compelling evidence that a god or gods exist, or anything supernatural for that matter. There is no point or goal to atheism.
Those are all wonderful benefits, but the big win is that you don’t have to sit in an uncomfortable chair for physical hours that stretch into mental eternities, listening to someone talk about religion. To put that back in your life seems to me to miss a major benefit of the whole enterprise.
So as an atheist I should reject all notions of community, and that’s a benefit? You may not be interested in a community that revolves in some way around a shared rejection of religion, but some people are, and sometimes for very good reasons.
Furthermore, Camp Quest is, like all summer camps, a way for kids to go away and have a good time in a natural environment, meet some new friends, and learn over the summer while giving their parents a break for a week or two. It is in its essence a science camp, but one that can be approached without all of the baggage and pussyfooting that goes along with appeasing the religious kids. And keep in mind that not all atheist parents live in urban centers where such attitudes are fairly normal. A lot live in deeply religious areas, and a camp like this gives them a chance to send their kids to an environment much more friendly to their beliefs (or lack thereof). What could be wrong with that?
One last thing:
I don’t want to attend seminars, read magazines or drop in at meetups to discuss how I don’t believe in God, Buddha or Krishna.
One can believe in Buddha and be an atheist. Buddha was a teacher, and a real person, not a god.
qtip
This is easy to check. Google even makes it easy. I just compared a Y camp to Camp Quest and they cost about the same, generally $400-$600/child for a week.
arguingwithsignposts
@shortstop:
Perhaps because the name is a*theist*, i.e., not believing in a deity. if people want to move off the playing field of religious language, stop using religious terminology to define ones’ beliefs.
I understand your point, however.
mutt
Im an Apathieist, too. I dont give a rap what anyone thinks about. Its utterly, completely, irrelevant. Just leave people the fuck aloe about it.
Im no more likely to attend a meeting of athiests than I am likely to go to church
mantis
Perhaps because the name is a*theist*, i.e., not believing in a deity. if people want to move off the playing field of religious language, stop using religious terminology to define ones’ beliefs.
Many in fact do so. That’s why there is a list of names for the camp: “Atheists, Freethinkers, Humanists, Brights, or whatever other terms might be applied to those who hold to a naturalistic, not supernatural world view.”
Freethinkers, humanists, brights. These are all religious-neutral terms for people who hold such beliefs. Sorry if we can’t convince the whole world to stop using the term “atheist.”
vernon
The reason many of us are so sick of religion in the first place is that it can be such a perfect vehicle for self-righteous assholes. It enables them to preach, judge, throw tantrums atop soapboxes, indoctrinate, and generally act infuriatingly superior. If getting rid of religion means getting rid of these attitudes, many of us would say good riddance.
But big-A Atheists today are proving one thing and one thing only: that evangelical assholes aren’t fundamentally religious, they’re just fundamentally assholes. They can find a home anywhere.
What do you call someone who doesn’t oppose belief OR non-belief, but staunchly opposes assholery? That’s what I want to be.
Joey Maloney
@shortstop:
“Knock some fucking sense into the thick, benighted head of”?
Chris
@vernon:
Let me know if you find out. I’d like to know too.
Joey Maloney
@vernon:
I propose naming this proposition “The David Horowitz Axiom of Human Behavior”.
shortstop
@arguingwithsignposts: Well, no, I don’t think you can make a convincing case that using a label that definitively rejects the reality of another represents tacit agreement to use that reality as the premise for the discussion.
Joey Maloney
This is probably not a real commercial. You know what? I don’t care. Don’t spoil it for me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4297XZdQsM
shortstop
@vernon: No idea. I don’t oppose either belief or non-belief, but you’ll have to pry assholery from my cold, dead hands.
THE
Several countries have secular coming-of-age intitutions for young people.
I define myself as atheist when I’m talking to (Abrahamic) religious people so they know how to relate to me in their concept of religious space. It seems appropriate because I definitely do not believe in their concept of God.
But subjectively, where religion plays no part in my self-definition, then I am a secular humanist.
burnspbesq
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Relax, ya dumbfuck. There will be no fainting today.
I’m a regular here. This is hardly my first contact with anti-religious bigotry.
bo?b
Excellent point about the reasons you are an atheist big or small a. A term I’ve adopted in non-participant as in this is far as I wish to go in the discussion of my spiritual world. I choose to be left alone.
Chris
@THE:
I like that one too.
Not least because “secular” in my understanding means “believes in the separation of church and state,” and by extension of church and science and some other things. It’s a rationalistic outlook that doesn’t necessarily exclude believers, or any opinion on the subject of God, really.
Much like, say, living under the U.S. Constitution doesn’t require you to abandon your religion – it just requires you to tolerate the followers of other religions and to accept that your faith is no longer a source of law. That’s very different from how Christian, Jewish and Muslim communities (to name only them) have lived throughout the ages, but it isn’t hostile to those religions either – live and let live. And it’s definitely more practical, if nothing else, than trying to get rid of religion altogether, as some other revolutions have tried to do.
arguingwithsignposts
@shortstop:
Which is why I’m an aconservative.
Joey Maloney
@arguingwithsignposts: I absolutely disbelieve in the existence of nus.
eemom
hmm. By the grace of God, this thread seems NOT to have devolved into the usual mud fight between believers and non-believers.
Or, maybe everybody just upped their meds today.
scarshapedstar
@andybud:
My thoughts exactly. I mean, there are opportunities like this for certain subjects — math camp, programming camp, Duke TIP — but rarely do you see one with such a range of topics.
It’s being put on by avowed atheists, yes, but church camp is all about singing songs about God, listening to stories about God, and gluing colored macaroni onto cups in the shape of a cross.
Camp Quest is not for singing songs about There Is No God. It’s about the natural world, and the sad fact is that this is still forbidden knowledge for fundamentalist Christianity, just as it is for fundamentalist Islam.
There was a time in my childhood when I was dragged to church, dragged to church camp, and detested every minute of it. And then I’d come home and read Time-Life science books. I wouldn’t say that every atheist couple should drag their kid to this, but yes, there are kids who will love it. Especially given the alternative.
shortstop
@arguingwithsignposts: I’m thinking your “I understand your point, however” comment above was far from accurate.
@burnspbesq: And we admire the way you consistently manage to stay calm, keep things in perspective and discuss these things without becoming personally affronted, Frank. I don’t know that we tell you that often enough.
@Chris:
Yes, nicely put.
scarshapedstar
Also, the idea behind “Bright” is to remove “theist” from the idea entirely. It’s a response to the reasoning that “well you call yourself an atheist because you reject God, but the fact that you have to reject him proves he’s real!”
I mean, at this point in my life, I can safely say that God does not cross my mind. Ever. There was a time when I would still try to pray for stuff, still feel somewhat holy when I set foot in a church, but that’s gone. I just don’t care about any of it anymore and I’m very thankful to be free of all those neuroses and delusions.
shortstop
@scarshapedstar:
Sure, but “Bright”? I mean, seriously? They couldn’t restrain themselves?
Stefan
If you choose not to believe, that’s fine. Is the dismissive, disrespectful, condescending attitude toward people of faith really necessary? What do you gain from writing profoundly offensive shit like this post?
If you choose not to believe in the Tooth Fairy, that’s fine. Is the dismissive, disrespectful, condescending attitude toward supposedly educated adults who do believe in the Tooth Fairy really necessary?
Jewish Steel
At times, the comments here resemble nothing so much as schismatic factions of Catholic cardinals whispering in the Vatican halls of orthodoxy, heterodoxy, apostasy. We get our religion on, for sure. Just like the rest.
Stefan
I get that what you mean is that some (in my opinion, a routinely overestimated number of) atheists really want others to become atheists, too, but we need to find religion-neutral language to convey that notion. “Convert” and “evangelize” don’t work; “recruit” has other connotations. Ideas?
I like “seduce”….
THE
@scarshapedstar:
sss, that is so freakin’ inspiring.
Stefan
Sure, but “Bright”? I mean, seriously? They couldn’t restrain themselves?
Yeah, it’s not a term I love either. There’s got to be something that doesn’t sound so…silly.
wag
@cleek:
Excellent analogy
scarshapedstar
@Persia:
Call me crazy, but I suspect the point of the exercise is simply to ask kids to prove or disprove the existence of an invisible pink unicorn standing nearby. Anyone threatened by that has issues.
AAA Bonds
Because atheists need to get more organized, man.
I understand if you’re antisocial, but the rest of us are trying to get stuff done.
What’s more annoying than a “Bright”? An atheist who doesn’t give a shit about the negative impact religion has on the world.
The truth is, there aren’t actually a ton of those folks.
Mainly, atheists who describe themselves like, “oh, I don’t care to associate with other atheists,” are just afraid to challenge religion, even though its factual claims are wrong. They’re uneasy around people who say “God’s not real” out loud.
God’s not real, after all.
It’s one small but important part of why we’ve made so little progress: atheist cowardice and atheist isolation.
shortstop
@Stefan: Bwa! Thank you for planting the vision of Central Casting’s SS officer playing Barry White music to a wide-eyed, crucifix-bedecked babe as he huskily explains what scientists mean by the term “theory.”
AAA Bonds
The best way to sum it up is: it’s super-hip in 2011 for liberal atheists to mime like they’re down with religion. See: black culture, “gun rights”, etc.
shortstop
@shortstop: I better clarify that “Central Casting’s SS officer” is an old inside joke, before someone accuses me of equating atheists with Nazis. (Which, knowing this place, someone is just about to do for real.)
rb
I used to love to argue with people about religion, but really, what’s the point?
You know, to do our bit in reducing the power of worldwide child rape cartels.
But hey, who gives a fuck, right?
Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac
@AAA Bonds: “it’s super-hip in 2011 for liberal atheists to mime like they’re down with religion. “
Wow. Exactly 100% absolutely entirely completely right. Athiests are really hoping to look like christians. I’d like to subscribe to your monthly newsletter.
stormhit
Wow, your concept of theology and philosophy is not at all juvenile.
Pococurante
Non-believer or believer are simply two sides of the same coin.
Problem is, one can’t prove or disprove the existence of G-d, at least while the heart is still beating. The only truly objectively rational stance is Agnostic or Apathist.
Based on life experiences I’ve had I definitely believe there is more going on than my immediate senses tell me most of the time.
But on G-d and his corporate hierarchy? Completely Apathist.
mds
@Patrick Phelan:
Er, if you’d ever been to a run-of-the-mill fundamentalist Christian church, you’d realize that this theme is taken.
@burnspbesq:
Well, thanks for soldiering on so manfully anyway, despite all the onerous discrimination you suffer due to your religious beliefs.
Howlin Wolfe
@andybud: I agree. I don’t know why MM thinks he has to even respond to this. And, is there a “point” to atheism besides the non-belief in a supernatural boss of the world? If people want to get together and talk about it, it’s no less to the point than NOT getting together to talk about it, or talk about astronomy, etc., in a context of the absence of a personal or impersonal deity.
So, MM, let PZ Myers and his pals and their kids have their fun, they’re still not sitting in an overpriced building with a bunch of other deluded or pretending-to-be deluded sad asses talking to their imaginary friend in the sky.
Carol from CO
Proselytizing atheists – one of my pet peeves capital letter or not. They irritate me more than proselytizing evangelicals/Mormons/Jehovah Witnesses, etc. They cannot be true atheists if they care about converting others. They’ve invented their own religion and their own god.
Howlin Wolfe
@techno: Why do you care? No one is making you attend.
THE
@Pococurante:
I think that you can go a little bit further than that. For instance: If you argue that there are an infinite number of possible gods or religions, then towards any one of them, the prior probability you would assign to it would be very, very close to zero.
That would justify agnositicism in principle, but near-atheism in practice.
But I think it’s possible to go even further than that. For example I consider the Abrahamic versions of God to be so loathsome that I would bet on atheism even if I thought there was a good chance it was true.
i.e.. I would prefer eternity in Hell rather than live in a universe with that kind of God.
So you could say, I have considered Pascal’s wager and I have placed my bet.
Lost Left Coaster
@scarshapedstar:
Exactly. Why is that a stunt? They’re teaching critical thinking. The real danger there is that level of critical thinking is going to *GASP* cast some doubt on the existence of a supernatural deity.
This camp is not designed to indoctrinate little atheists. It is not an “atheist camp.” But it is a camp that teaches critical thinking and reinforces skepticism, all the while with the kids having a great time and making great friends. Frankly, I think kids are never too young to learn critical thinking. If everyone practiced good critical thinking, I’m pretty sure that the Republican party would nearly go extinct.
Stefan
Problem is, one can’t prove or disprove the existence of G-d, at least while the heart is still beating. The only truly objectively rational stance is Agnostic or Apathist.
One can’t prove or disprove the existence of goblins, gnomes, Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, or magical pink unicorns either. Yet if someone asked you if you believed in magical pink unicorns, would you say that you were agnostic about it? To me the term agnostic implies at least a certain level of credence I’m not willing to grant.
Stefan
That would justify agnositicism in principle, but near-atheism in practice.
This is an argument I’ve used with religious friends. I point out that they are in fact atheist with respect to their tragic lack of faith in Zeus, Odin, Osiris, Ba’al Moloch, etc., just as I’m an atheist with respect to their religion. They’re simply atheist with respect to N belief systems while I’m an atheist with respect to N+1.
Nerull
It’s kind of amazing how much prejudice there is against atheists even among liberals. Even here it took about half the comment thread for anyone to actually look up what Camp Quest actually does, while everyone else was busy arguing about an whatever they imagined a strawman Camp Quest might do.
Less Popular Tim
@cleek:
I thought I read somewhere that the other involves Orcs
JoeK
No time to read the whole thread, but FWIW: I’m a Unitarian and also consider myself a capital-A-Atheist, and I’m actively working to build a secular community. For me, that’s not about sitting around listening to people (or talking to people) about how great it is to not believe in gods. It’s about:
a) Enjoying socializing with like minded people; but more importantly,
b) Motivating people to take positions based on evidence, not wishful thinking;
c) Supporting people (especially politicians) who choose to adopt such positions; and
d) Educating and encouraging people who are interested in learning about or adopting evidence-based world views and congruent political activism.
The aim is not to be self-congratulatory (although I admit there can be a lot of that in some contexts), but to try to create a better world. It’s an attempt to be a counterweight on the other side of the scale from the crazed right/religious wing of the social and political spectrum, which has (IMO) done so much damage to our society. Organizing around this seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
eemom
@Pococurante:
I like this comment. That is pretty close to how I see it.
Hungry Joe
I would have LOVED Camp Quest. Still, my Boy Scout summer camp experience — three or four years’ worth — was outstanding. The only bad moments were when everybody but me, the only Jewish kid, went to Chapel for an hour of Jesus under the Eucalyptus while I stayed at the campsite and read a book and felt like shit. Then my friends would come back and tell me how lucky I was not to have to go to dumbass Chapel, and I’d forget about the whole thing. (I was also an atheist, but no adult leader ever grilled me on my beliefs. If anyone had, I would have lied.)
CWD
Comparing rational atheism (big “A”) to religion is like comparing astronomy to astrology. Sure, they both deal with stars but one makes predictions based on what we can see while the other makes predictions based on stuff made up thousands of years ago to keep a man from having to work for a living.
Astronomy tells you you’re gonna die horribly because that big ass rock is heading right for us. I can show you picuters the rock, measure its speed and position and calculate where and when its gonna hit. Astrology tells you you’re gonna die horribly becasue Saturn is in the house of Leo when you were born. You know its in Leo becasue a chart developed by some wicked smart Chaldean grifter 5000 years ago tells you so.
Who ya gonna believe? A peer reviewed Carl Sagan or Ms. Cleo who just wants you to call her now ($.99 per minute, other charges may apply) ?
Atheism – be it “A” flavored or “a” flavored is not religion.
eemom
And I don’t get how any atheist who objects to proseletyzing can justify trying to “convert” people to atheism.
There are better ways to try to fix the world.
It is not religion or faith itself that is to blame for the vile things that are done in its name.
Stefan
I better clarify that “Central Casting’s SS officer” is an old inside joke, before someone accuses me of equating atheists with Nazis.
Yes, it was a, uh, role-pla, er, wait, improv, yes, that’s the word, that shortstop and I used to do…
Gretchen
Do you have kids? If so, I’m surprised you don’t get this. The average American worker gets 2 or 3 weeks of vacation a year, for a total of 4-6 for a couple. The kids get 3 months during summer, and a week at Christmas and spring break, leaving a constant worry of what to do with the kids when I have work and they don’t have school and Grandma lives in Houston and doesn’t want them anyway. Summer camp! That will take up a week! My kids still complain about Baptist summer school, since they turned out to be atheists, but they were still alive at the end of the day, which was my bottom line.
KSE
I’m a big fan of Camp Quest precisely because it embodies “positive atheism” – not just rejecting religion but encouraging critical thinking, and embracing and exploring the real world.
I don’t generally go to atheist gatherings – always struck me as a little bit like joining the Aphilatelists Club, where everybody sits around and talks about not collecting stamps – but I’m totally in favor of organized, vocal atheism. It’s long past time there was some actual pushback over the undeserved influence of religion over our political process, and for a lot of people, just knowing there are lots of other people out there like them is an important step to feeling free to voice their own doubts about the religious culture they’ve been raised in.
mantis
@Pococurante:
Non-believer or believer are simply two sides of the same coin.
Not really, no.
Problem is, one can’t prove or disprove the existence of G-d, at least while the heart is still beating. The only truly objectively rational stance is Agnostic or Apathist.
No. Atheism does not signify belief that god doesn’t exist. Atheism signifies, quite simply, a lack of theism. I do not subscribe to religious belief, and I don’t believe in gods. Can gods possibly exist? I suppose, but there’s no evidence that they do. I suppose Santa Claus could exist as well, but I don’t believe he does. The only truly objectively rational stance is atheism. Agnosticism is the belief that one can never know the answers to certain questions. I reject that completely. The answers are out there for the getting, even if I may never find them in my lifetime, or for that matter humans may never find them at all. Agnosticism is, essentially, faith in one’s own critical impotence and stupidity. I have no clue why anyone would call themselves an agnostic. Apathist is a new one to me, and sounds entirely silly.
Based on life experiences I’ve had I definitely believe there is more going on than my immediate senses tell me most of the time.
So what? I can’t sense quarks or hadrons, but I know they exist, and just because I can’t sense them doesn’t make them supernatural.
AAA Bonds
Look, I love the Constitution’s strong defense of religious expression, but:
1) God’s not real.
2) Religion is false.
You can go on believing otherwise all day, until it messes with me and mine, and then I hit back.
HyperIon
@cleek wrote:
Excellent observation.
Just like particles of a certain size coagulate, it seems that humans gotta organize groups.
AAA Bonds
Personally, I’ll send my kids to YMCA camp, so they can get introduced to sex and weed there just like I did.
hitchhiker
Okay, I admit it.
I go to church and have for 25 years. I’m also openly & happily nontheist (which is the word I use & haven’t seen in this thread . . . a-theist has a sort of reactionary feel that’s just off). I’m also very visible in this church, which is large and liberal and in a very liberal city. Like, I have a prominent leadership role, though I won’t use religious language . . . and it is a church that calls itself christian, not unitarian.
What can I say? I take what I like: the community, the rhythm of the year, the chance to be part of a giant tribe, the exposure to young families, the way I’ve gotten to grow older in sync with so many others, my confidence that this is where somebody or other will organize a memorial service for me when it’s time — and that whoever that is, the room will be filled with people who knew me and shared a whole lifetime of experience with me.
And I leave the rest. I don’t like the bible, I don’t care about praying, I can’t sing most of the hymns . .. but all that is a tiny part of being a member of this church.
The biggest part is camps! We have lots of them, and they’re the places where I’ve been happiest and most at home on this earth. Go be with your husband and kids in a little cabin, surrounded by people you love, in a lovely quiet place . . . no bibles, no macaroni projects, just days of bliss. Our older daughter chose one of those camps to have her wedding last year, and it was pretty amazing.
Church CAN be a place where you get to make meaning out of your life, and it CAN be that without any need to pretend you go for the god stuff at all. The sorry & juvenile state of most modern religions is embarrassing — and yet there is still something I value in this one community, which happens to be called a church but which would be just as dear to me if it were called a club or a village or a family.
Marcelo
>>>”I take it you don’t have kids. The true believers will come to them, early and often. That’s what all the “culture war” shouting is about.”
A million times this. As a kid who grew up without religion I was constantly pushed around and indoctrinated and cajoled and told that I ought to pray. I was in a boychoir and while we were on tour my extremely religious roommates made me pray with them. Since I was young at the time I didn’t realize the full implications of what was going on, but I wish I had, and I wish I had had more positive role models and experiences with my atheist upbringing that would have allowed me to respectfully and confidently decline all that crap that the less-confident me ended up doing.
For that reason alone I love the idea of the camp. How I wish I could have been a part of that kind of organization – I would have confidently and consciously embraced atheism much earlier and used the skills taught to me in such a camp to stand up for myself, and not in the stupid combative way I did when I was in high school because I didn’t know any better.
And considering the difficulty so many nonbelievers have in adopting the “atheist” label to begin with, I say the more opportunities people who are nonbelievers have to meet like-minded folks and recognize that there are others out there who share your beliefs, call themselves atheists, and THAT’S OKAY, the better for everyone. You don’t have to avail yourself of those opportunities, but it’s nice to have for those of us like me who grew up in school districts that were up to 40% Mormon-attended.
cynickal
@Less Popular Tim:
+1
Craig Pennington
@eemom: It isn’t so much about proselytization as about making folks know that we exist in general (note that anti-gay bigotry is much harder to maintain when you are aware that people you know are gay — same goes) and making folks coming to that conclusion on their own aware that they aren’t alone in that conclusion.
Tehanu
I don’t object to either theism or atheism. I’m not really sure what I believe and I don’t agree with the poster up above who said agnosticism was stupid because the answers are there; I think there are questions we can’t know the answers to — like the speed and position of a single quark, for example. So what I object to, from both religious people and atheists, is dogmatic certainty. AAA Bonds says “God’s not real.” Yeah? Really? How the fuck do you know? You’re just as dogmatic, and just as likely to be wrong, as any right-wing evangelical moron like Franklin Graham. A little humility about exactly what you think, vs. what you actually know, would go a long way.
By the way, there are, um, militant atheists in my family — the kind who have meetings every Sunday, which I’ve always thought was funny. Through them I’ve learned that there are all kinds of different atheist groups out there, and they all hate each other for not having exactly the same ideological stance. I mean, it’s Judean People’s Front vs. People’s Front of Judea time, and frankly I’ve always thought that was funny too.
BombIranForChrist
I am late coming to this discussion, but I think you are so right.
I consider myself a Reluctant Atheist. I want to believe that there is an Adult Santa Claus out there, I do. I would love to die, and then go to a place where I could see other dead people, perhaps watch History on a Heavenly Film Reel or something..
For me, as much as I want to believe, I just can’t. It just all smacks too much of Santa Claus for adults.
But holy crap, some Atheists scare me more than Christians, and that’s saying a lot. It’s sobering to listen to an Atheist attack the various forms of Mind Control exhibited by Christians and then marvel that he doesn’t have enough self-reflection to see that he endorses a kind of mind control himself.
An Atheist high on his own fumes is barely distinguishable from his Christian counterpart. It’s sad that these so called intellectuals can’t see it in themselves.
I say, put the Organized Atheists, the Christians and the GOP all in a rocket and blast them into space, where they can continue to safely create their own realities without harming others. The world will be better for it.
Lysana
Old thread, I know, but goddamn it, the Hebrews had WRITING. That means they were not illiterate.
Shoemaker-Levy 9
I was busy all day and you guys had an atheism thread without me. Jesus wept.
There is no point of atheism. Atheism is a description of a state of mind.
Church is only an hour a week if you go to the right church, so the actual big win is being honest with oneself and not pretending to believe something that you don’t.
Not a member of any organization myself, but I understand the urge. It’s still socially acceptable to hate atheists in America. Myself, I live in a liberal college town in a blue state. Anybody can put up a Nativity scene at Christmastime and nobody would even think twice about it, but I don’t dare put up a sign on my front lawn proclaiming the non-existence of the favored Deity for fear of vandalism or even being burned to death by an arsonist. Being an open atheist in large swathes of the U.S. is roughly on a par with being openly gay in Oklahoma, sorry to say.
A lameass fucking euphemism for atheist.
Ghanima Atreides
@arguingwithsignposts:
no i don’t. i said DEFENSE AGAINST PROSELYTIZATION REFLEX. its not defending practices i disagree with.
I think stoning and whipping and chopping hands are all bad.
I am EXPLAINING what shari’ia is, how it evolved, and why westerners can’t do a bloody thing to change it in majority muslim nations.
Empirically, lets test it?
10 years, a trillion dollars, 7000 dead soljahs, nearly a MILLION dead muslim civilians later– has there been a single church or synagogue built in Iraq or A-stan? Have there been significant numbers of conversions?
No, retards.
Because when muslims are DEMOCRATICALLY empowered to vote, they vote for shari’ia.
and the west can’t do a damn thing about it.
Dustin
@BombIranForChrist: I wasn’t aware the scientific method was a form of mind control. Or were you referring to the idea that we require people who want to shape our society and our legal system using their bronze-age tribal dictums of choice to support their position with naturalistic evidence, with proof?
I’m confused, help me out here.
Ghanima Atreides
@mantis:
I hang out at Dawkins net sometimes.
The Dawkins bots view us all as “supernaturalists”, buddhists too.
Nirvana, prana, reincarnation, all supernatural events.
Ghanima Atreides
@Dustin: children acquire religion between the age of 7 and 14.
Usually humans become atheists in college.
Dawkins views childhood religious indoctrination as child abuse.
Dustin
@Ghanima Atreides: Good for Dawkins. Now why would I care what he says about religious indoctrination? Does his idiotic position on that one topic invalidate his notion of religion as a memetic virus? Does it make his support for naturalistic, scientific thinking a mark against the scientific method’s truth? Or are we going with the argument from authority combined with ad hominem attack angle here?
The simple fact of the matter here is one side has evidence on their side, and the other has wishful thinking.
slightly_peeved
But, unless he’s scientifically proven religious indoctrination is child abuse, or he is referring to the current scientific consensus on this point, why should I care what his views are? Wouldn’t accepting his view on this point uncrtically be exactly the kind of behaviour he’s trying to stop?
slightly_peeved
So he’s proved this, right?
What this and the ‘child abuse’ comment do is show that even Richard Dawkins can’t live a rational life. On subjects he feels passionate about, he takes positions contrary to the prevailing scientific thought.
Basically it shows that any atheist claiming that they are more rational than other people purely because of a lack of belief in god are kidding themselves. Being rational’s a lot harder work than that, and there are limits to everyone’s capacity for rationality. The scientific consensus certainly does not point to the view that human beings act as reasoning machines; more that our thought processes are strongly
slightly_peeved
sorry to triple post, but the editing window closed:
… our thought process are strongly affected by the balance of certain chemicals within our brain.
Atheists don’t have the evidence on their side. On some issues, they have evidence on their side, and on some issues they do not. Some issues are unobservable, or subjective, and no-one has any evidence. In these cases, to act like they do have evidence is to do what they accuse their opponents of doing, and to work by wishful thinking.
Stefan
AAA Bonds says “God’s not real.” Yeah? Really? How the fuck do you know?
Do you think Santa Claus isn’t real? Yeah? Really? How the fuck do you know? What about the Tooth Fairy — can you categorically reject its existence?
Or is it your position that, quite possibly, Santa Claus does exist and does travel around the world every Christmas Eve leaving out presents for good little boys and girls?
Dustin
@slightly_peeved: And this is precisely why it’s impossible to have a rational discussion on atheism and how it relates to religion with most people. You’re fixated on two topics, neither of which get to the root of the issue.
The first, Richard Dawkins, is completely irrelevant. He is one person, who happens to be of note, who popularizes atheist positions. Does that make him an authority? No. Does that give his opinions more weight than anyone else’s? No. You’re the one putting Dawkins on a pedestal so you can knock him down, not I. This is little different than creationists continuing to attack Darwin, and just as effective.
As a side note, the idea of memetic theory is a simple one: that culture, like life and language, evolves. The idea that churches can co-opt that mechanism for their own growth and protection isn’t exactly a stretch, even if calling such behavior a “virus” is bound to upset people.
Your second point: that atheists claim to be ‘more rational than believers’ because they don’t believe in a god has the equation precisely backwards. The default in any position when faced with any idea is not that it’s correct until proven wrong, but that it must prove itself right. Religion, simply enough, cannot do that. It was an attempt by people to find agency in nature before they understood nature has no overarching agent.
Science has proven this or, more precisely, it has whittled away at the power of the gods for centuries. All that’s left is wishy-washy special pleading about how we can’t know what happens after we die and other such “god of the gaps” ideas. When an atheist asks that a theist prove their claims scientifically, with evidence and not faith or semantics, they are not being irrational but instead taking the default null position.
Sheesh
@mantis: Exactly. Atheists can’t help it that our entire fucking language privileges religious and patriarchal** thinking. It’s religious and patriarchal by default.
I would love it if I could say “I’m a humanist” (or flibbidyflorp, or anything really) and that would mean to you that I am at least as ethical and moral as you and that I operate on the assumption that there are no gods, but it won’t mean that to you. You will assume I’m just as theist as you are (even if I say humanist, rationalist, naturalist, empiricist or even Buddhist***), because you’re fucking soaking in the privilege of faith and belief in belief. And that’s normal, I accept that. I generally assume any random person I interact with online or off will not be atheist/skeptic (and that they will immediately suspect me if I reveal that I know of no evidence for gods).
Living in the south I can’t even be out as “an atheist” without repercussions that would affect my livelihood. (So I sure as hell can’t send my kid to Atheist Camp, but might be able to get away with science camp, although that too would be suspect.)
** It’s hysterical. See what I did there? Ours is not the only language with this ‘feature’, e.g. Chinese (and by extension Japanese through kanji).
*** as this thread shows you basically all presume Buddhists are theist, and all the other bullshit tropes indicating you don’t know shit about the discrimination the non-religious**** deal with. Keep on derpin!
**** See, there’s another absolutely commonplace word defining us as Other, like non-white.
Edit: hm, single asterisk footnotes are bad!
Sheesh
@Hungry Joe:
Exactly, you would have lied, because just like bitches, atheists ain’t shit. And that’s OK, even on “liberal blogs”.