From the “this is excellent news for Republicans!” file, early indications are that the media are going to spin Wisconsin as a big failure for Democrats and their base. This is about as surprising as Mark Halperin saying something stupid, so I’m not shocked, but to inject a little reality into the discussion– here is a website that contains a list of recall elections in state legislatures. There have only been twenty attempts in American history. Recalling state legislators is really, really rare. Getting two in one night, in a rebuke of a governor who won by a 6 point margin less than a year ago, is a big deal. Yes, we all wanted the Democrats to get the majority, and yes, two Democrats stand a chance of being recalled and making it a wash. But to cast this as this major disappointment is– well, it’s the media doing what the media does. I genuinely think every reporter at Politico has some version of “this is excellent news for Republicans” saved as an AutoText.
The liberal media knows that Everything is Always Good for Republicans, because of their dastardly liberal bias.
Update: Some commenters are making fair points about reasons to be discouraged by these results. A point I meant to make here: sure, there is room for debate in this instance. But there isn’t a national forum for that debate in our media. Since everything is always good for Republicans and bad for Democrats in the Beltway media, parsing these kinds of distinctions is impossible. If Politico was ever willing to call any close issue a win for Democrats, I could take Politico more seriously when it runs its same old “good for the GOP!” story. But they aren’t willing to do that, the media in general isn’t willing to do that, and so there’s no space to look at the issue openly. Nor is there any context presented about how very rare recalling state legislators really is.
dedc79
I couldn’t agree more.
I had to turn off NPR this morning, their reporting on the recall was so awful. This was a significant victory and will ensure that the Wisconsin rightward march slows considerably (if it dooesn’t stop altogether).
TR
Amen. Three would’ve been great, but two is impressive as hell.
Wisconsin liberals managed to turn water into wine *and* multiply the fishes to feed the multitude, but the media is clucking because they didn’t produce enough bread to go with it.
SBJules
Well, damn. Wisconsin isn’t what it used to be.
Mark S.
Dear God, when I saw the title, I thought for a second Cole made that Reality Check troll a front pager.
no video at work
sorry, I can’t buy this as a moral victory. One of the Dem winners only lost by 169 votes in the last election so it wouldn’t take that much to flip the results. As bad as Walker & the Rs behaved, as naked as their aggression against middle-class, working and poor families was, as much attention as their bullshit garnered, if this is the best we can do they should feel free to be even more reckless and more abusive in the future. The unions and liberals and sane people can’t stop them yet they might just as well go further.
Steve
Two Republicans got recalled by the voters and replaced with Democrats, but this is good news for Republicans because even more of them could have been recalled. Do I understand the narrative correctly?
jwest
One of the reasons that “this is excellent news for Republicans” is that the recall election showed that even with the unions and national liberal advocacy groups throwing everything possible into the outcome, they still lost.
If the entirety of the progressive establishment couldn’t pull off enough turnout in a highly publicized special election, the outlook for a massive conservative wave in 2012 is that much better.
As Bill Clinton once said, “You better put a little ice on that”.
Zifnab
Let Republicans think this is a victory. I completely encourage Governor Walker to take this as a sign he needs to move even more rightward. Dems only picked up two Senate seats out of six in an off-year recall election. There’s no way the momentum isn’t with the Teatards.
Keep marching to the right, guys. The polls won’t fail you again.
Mike Goetz
So you’re saying that incremental progress on liberal goals that doesn’t quite get all the way there is a good thing, and trying to spin it as bad is dishonest?
You don’t say.
Ron
@jwest: These were all districts that went GOP in 2008. These are pretty deep red districts. To win 2 of them is a big deal.
kd bart
McCain can win Wisconsin in 2012.
Rock
jwest is right. The election shows that an energized progressive and union base can’t accomplish anything. Polls show the 2 Dems are likely to lose their recall elections and it will all be a wash.
In this case the MSM is right — this is excellent news for Republicans. It’s a harbinger of a likely Republican wave in 2012 that will take Presidency and Senate. The majority of Americans vote for Republicans, and they believe in Republican values and policies. It’s as simple as that.
Zifnab
@jwest:
You say that like the Republicans weren’t pushing back. This is a battleground state, and we had a big skirmish. Six Republican heads were on the block, and we scored two.
You don’t think Koch’n’Friends were dumping millions into this thing on their end? You don’t think the GOP wasn’t mobilizing its own voters and campaigning like hell? Winning a state senate seat ain’t easy. The Republican incumbents didn’t get elected the first time around by accident.
Wait for the Dem recalls to go through. If the Republicans fail to pick up either of those seats, I’ll consider this a solid win.
markg
If you lived in Wisconsin as I do, and witnessed how truly awful the republican agenda has been, how much damage has been inflicted on this State since Walker took office, and how much energy and money went into these recall efforts, then you might agree with me that this, is a huge, disastrous failure. The republicans will continue ruling without restraint, and unless the Walker recall somehow succeeds, will probably consolidate their gains once their partisan redistricting and restrictive voter ID and registration laws kick in next year.
ThresherK
The center is the place to be.
Sorry, my mainstream copyeditor put up the In Case The Dems Win Wisconsin hed by mistake.
arguingwithsignposts
Did Koch send out his minions this morning for the spin walkaround?
Mike Goetz
@jwest:
On the bright side, maybe the unions and national liberal advocacy groups will realize that they are stronger as good soldiers within a larger center-left coalition.
dr. bloor
I’ll be the turd in the punch bowl here and point out that this is partly a result of the way the recall campaign was framed. Rather than framing it as an effort to keep the Republicans honest, give voters an opportunity to act on buyer’s remorse, or something more tempered, the Democrat’s self-defined bar for success was to regain the majority in the Senate.
They did not, so particularly given the MSM’s style, they should hardly be surprised that this is being reported in the way that it is.
kindness
Yea NPR did just that this morning. Democrats flipped two previously Republican seats and yet Democrats were humiliated.
Why do liberals continue to fund NPR? I can’t figure that one out. I like my local KQED, but the national organization is a Fox wanna be.
Marc
@Rock:
That’s good stuff that you’re smoking. Paid by the word or by the hour? If I was your paymaster I’d go hourly – quality beats quantity.
kd bart
All six Republicans who ran last night won those seats in 2008. An election in which Obama beat McCain by nearly 14 points in Wisconsin.
Marc
@jwest:
Walker won those seats in 2010 by wide margins. Silver has Walker as a tossup in a recall based on these relative trends. That’s reality.
Oh, and the 2010 crop of Senators is eligible for recall in 2012. All it takes is one of them to value self-preservation and the majority snaps.
Richard Bottoms
Maybe I can help one of you out because for me, life couldn’t be better, business is off the hook.
I am looking for a Junior HTML coder, willing to train. You don’t have to be expert, but you have to know more than zero. Drop a line to boycott-trump -at- gmail.com
jwest
Marc,
Since you can’t read the handwriting on the wall, here’s a map that lays it all out for you.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/148874/Obama-Job-Approval-Higher-States.aspx
Only 16 states have Obama at 50% or above, and that is polling “adults” (which normally skews 4 to 5 points pro-democrat over “likely voters”. The lack of presidential coat tails will make the downstream losses for democrats in 2012 massive.
4tehlulz
@kindness: NPR is like a group of incumbant congressman. Everyone hates it, except for their own rep./station.
Ash Can
@Marc: “I don’t smoke rocks, and that’s the truth.” (And this makes me think “Rock” is a spoof.)
kindness
@4tehlulz: fixed:
Felinious Wench
Here’s the deal…Wisconsin put Republicans on notice that we’re not going to lay back and take it. We WILL fight back; not just protesting, we will go after their jobs. This is what everyone here has been screaming we should do. They did it. We gained 2 seats. It’s going to be one battle at a time, but damn it, we’re not taking the crap ANY MORE.
Good on you, Wisconsin. An example for the rest of us.
Judas Escargot
Just chiming in about the BS spin.
You all know damned well that if the parties were reversed in this situation, MSM would be crowing: “Beleaguered Dems lose two seats in historic recall election!”
Mushroom Management: Keep ’em in the dark, and feed ’em nothing but bullshytt. It apparently works.
Samara Morgan
/yawn
having totally alienated most of the juicer commentariat yesterday with your intransigent firebagging and emocutting pissy poutrage over Obama not being pure enough for you, i see you have have gone Full Frontal Pandermode, with mistermix even advising you on cutting down your tedious high verbal bloviation.
is there some blogrule that says BJ has to have a bloviating glibertarian gasbag on the front page?
go post at the LoOG where you belong.
and take craptastic mistermix with you.
dr. bloor
@jwest:
First, the states where he’s Average/Above Average will give him more than enough EVs to win. Second, as the poll points out, approval ratings are not invariably re-elect numbers. Third, Gallup? Seriously?
Samara Morgan
@Judas Escargot: they have to do that.
our national media is a pure-D product of capitalism.
to sell product they have to engage the fox news nation, because the country is still half bubba.
its just the regular fisting of the invisible hand.
NobodySpecial
Two’s good. It leaves Walker no margin for error to push anything else – one waffler and his agenda is dead. It’s not as good as three plus, but two is damn good.
Ash Can
@jwest: Exactly four years ago, you’d be citing those same polls to insist that Hillary Clinton would be the Democratic presidential nominee and Rudy Giuliani would be the next president. And you’d look just as silly.
Freddie deBoer
Matoko, this is what I mean when I tell you that words have meanings. “Glibertarian” is a term that means someone who claims to be a libertarian but who only does so to frame conventionally conservative arguments. Completely setting aside the fact that I am generally regarded as a far lefty, and nothing resembling a libertarian, I certainly don’t claim to be a libertarian. I thus cannot possibly be a glibertarian.
So why do you call me one? Because you throw any clever-sound term into debate regardless of whether it has any content or not. Today’s glibertarian is yesterday’s memetically sealed is last years “substrate! it’s all about the substrate!”
Content yourself with the fact that your objections to me are duly noted, that many other BJ commenters can’t stand me, and that (I assure you) I will continue to say things to piss them off as long as John Cole remains gracious enough to let me post here. If you are arguing that I’m someone who runs from conflict… I’m not quite sure what to tell you.
OK?
Samara Morgan
Hey juicers!
check this out!
Hbin – August 9, 2011 | 11:53 pm · Link
Just saw Freddie being smacked down by TNC at his blog for attempting to play the “you’re not leftist/liberal enough” blame-game with TNC the way Freddie was goading Yglesias and Klein. Too bad TNC is smart enough not to indulge him – “you have your own blog”. Ooohhhh, burn!
Not to mention the humiliation of the commenters at TNC’s blog not knowing who Freddie de Boer is and calling him “faux liberal troll”. LOL, I guess Freddie’s tireless effort to increase his reputation by picking fights with more established liberal bloggers hasn’t work at all. Faux liberal troll indeed!
Samara Morgan
LOLLOLLLL!
faux liberal troll indeed!
liberal
@Rock:
Nope. All it shows is that, given the current stacked playing field, in some (for sake of argument, most) elections more Americans vote Republican. It doesn’t necessarily follow they believe in Republican “values” and “policies.”
Freddie deBoer
There’s the other thing, matoko. You realize that it’s rude to comment as much as all other commenters combined, right? I mean that’s just basic propriety.
Look– if your point is that lots of people don’t like me, that’s true. I’ve kind of cultivated that, you know? You used to like me, once, if you’ll remember. Then I pointed out that you are not, in fact, who you say you are, and you got mad, and now you are negatively obsessed.
(There wasn’t a gay girl in Damascus, either.)
lawguy
Now I’m confused. Like the writer above I listened to NPR this morning and they were talking about 3 seats, not 6 up for grabs. what happened to the other 3?
Also who knows what the outlook is for the democrats in the next recalls.
Third, while it is disappointing, I would suggest that winning 2 out of three ain’t bad and a start. Our problems were a long time coming, they aren’t going to go away in one election.
superluminar
@Freddie deBoer:
I’m not sure that was was wise….
It is interesting however that now you believe that not getting 100% of what you want is enough to qualify as a victory. Seems a slightly different standard to what you were arguing yesterday, hmmm?
Linnaeus
I can understand why someone might see last night as a disappointment, or even a defeat. It certainly fell short of the desired goal, and there’s no way around that.
One of the things, though, that we’re often reminded of on this very blog is that you don’t always win everything you want and that you make the best of the advances you do make. I think that’s the attitude necessary in this case because, otherwise, what choice is there?
liberal
@Freddie deBoer:
I’d wager a poll of BJers would show that far, far more can’t stand her. Actually, I’d be interested in whether anyone else who comments here can stand her.
Ash Can
@NobodySpecial: I feel the same way. I read a number of folks here pointing out last night that Walker’s agenda is on pretty thin ice now — one criminal conviction or one Republican discovering his/her conscience will be enough to put the brakes on his smash-and-grab. Not succeeding in flipping the senate outright is a disappointment, but there’s no way to claim with any validity whatsoever that the election results didn’t make Walker’s job harder. And if he proceeds to double down on the offensiveness and outrageousness — which he could very well be dumb enough to do — then it should be that much easier for the Dems to eke out enough extra votes around the state to offset the Waukesha enclave of crazy.
Linda Featheringill
@Felinious Wench: #28
That’s just what I was thinking but trying to figure out how to say it. You said it very well.
And yes, good for you, Wisconsin.
ppcli
@NobodySpecial: Yes – people shouldn’t be taking this “all or nothing” view. There are huge benefits to winning two seats. Walker and his gang are pushing a wildly radical agenda. As things stood before, he could allow a few of his Senators in swing districts to abstain or even vote with the Democrats to play it safe. Now he needs everybody. The Republican Senators who won close elections last time will be looking over their shoulders. It will be easier to target and pressure fence-sitters in close votes. And so on.
Samara Morgan
de Bore
you SAID you are civil libertarian.
In my emergent Unified Field Theory of Libertarians, you allshare the same basic ideology, as described in Dr. Jim Manzi’s Paradow of Libertarianism.
Therefore civil libertarians, neo-liberals, glibertaians , liberaltarians, bleeding heart libertarians, classical liberals, libertarians, Libertarians …..all subscribe to the same Dead White Phaliosophy, and are all first culture intellectuals.
eg, anti-empirical bulshytters that dervive everything from “First Principles”.
Because otherwise you would call yourself something else.
:)
superluminar
This is like the worst Rom-Com ever.
Freddie deBoer
It is interesting however that now you believe that not getting 100% of what you want is enough to qualify as a victory. Seems a slightly different standard to what you were arguing yesterday, hmmm?
Not at all. In fact, I’ve never argued such a thing about Obama. Not in this space, and not anywhere. And that’s the frustration– I’ve specifically and consistently argued about different political and messaging tactics and how they could support left-wing causes. I have never said that Obama could have given me everything that I wanted, that he needs to make more powerful speeches, or that he has the power to unilaterally override Congress. But many commenters here have developed such a mind for dog whistles that they literally have replaced what I actually say with what other commenters say in their minds. My argument simply is not what they say it is.
Samara Morgan
Paradox.
:)
Freddie deBoer
This is like the worst Rom-Com ever.
+1
Bill Arnold
Getting the split on the state senate down to the point where control shifts on one defection is big. It means that every Republican senator has huge leverage.
Strandedvandal
@ Samara Morgan As much as FdB’s post yesterday was an annoying piece of trash in my estimation, it was 1 post. You, on the other hand, are a never ending stream of annoying BS.
You don’t like FdB, we get it.
You can stop now.
Ash Can
@liberal: I honestly prefer reading a Freddie post in which I disagree with him to a matoko comment in which I agree with her (on the occasions when I can actually figure out wtf she’s trying to say).
The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik
@lawguy:
Three of the seats were decided early and went to the incumbents, that’s what they most likely referred to.
Donut
Sorry I don’t have time to read others’ comments at the moment, but I agree with the gist of what Freddie is saying and think it is important that state and local Democratic party officials ignore what the national media is saying about just about everything. There is too much to do to worry about the reactions of Joe Scarborough or John King or Wolf Blitzer or Cokie Roberts or Joe Klein or any of the assholes who populate the Village. They are a waste of time when it comes to winning local and state elections. We need to learn this from Repulicans – every time they get their asses kicked on the national level, they go and retrench at the state and local level.
I’ve heard a lot of people lately say that we need to be more like Republicans in terms of staying united behind party leaders at the federal level, and I’m not discounting that altogether, but I think that’s really the wrong lesson to learn from the GOP’s continued electoral success, which they keep having despite its having zero to offer people on policy. They do a very good job of ignoring criticism from the national media, such as it is and rare as it is, and focusing on winning elections.
blah blah blah
eric
I pointed this out in another thread. Obama winning the White House is a necessary, but not sufficient condition to sane governance. Given the GOP, you need a RELIABLE 60 Senate votes and that is not gonna happen. If you cannot flip these districts in light of GOP behavior, then you are NEVER going to convince voters in Nebraska to send anyone less politically obnoxious than Ben Nelson, and he is supposed to be one of the 60. As currently constituted, America is structurally limited as to how progressive or liberal it can be. The best you can do is move the discussion to the Left, but that is where the Media creates structural impediment number 2, with its anti-labor anti-tax biases and superficial corporatist coverage.
None of this means that you stop fighting, just that you stop calling your side nasty names, even when you disagree with them. Obama is not a sell-out. He is not a Republican. He is a generally centrist Democrat that has to govern in a world that structurally limits even how centrist he can be.
Rihilism
First, two State Senate Republicans were recalled.
Second, Repug congressional disapproval is at a record high.
Third, you link to a poll that states,
As evidence that things are getting worse for Obama.
Shirley, you jwest…
Max Power
@Rock:
Seriously? This isn’t a national harbinger for shit. It’s Wisconsin politics. It was a re-call election (not much different from a special election) in 6 GOP heavy districts. Walker stayed out of it for the last 4-5 months. He’s the one carrying most of the stigma. This has nothing to do with predicting national level elections. Have you seen Congress’s approval lately? Have you seen the GOP’s approval lately?
I swear, the amount of what some posters here don’t know could fill a book.
NobodySpecial
@superluminar:
No. Running in all six districts in itself is winning. If you wanted to compare it to, say, the ACA battle, then what would have happened is the national party would have written off half of the recall efforts before the election judges ruled on their validity and then spent money on TV buys using GOP talking points to try and win the election for Democrats in the other half.
Then there would have been the requisite surprise and horror at the complete failure of those elections and attempts would be made to blame progressives because they should have clapped harder or not even attempted those foolish recalls.
eric
@Max Power: national GOP approval dont mean spit if the Dems cant get 61 Senators and they cant. That is what this local election tells me when you consider that these districts are no more republican than the states the Dems would have to win to get a filibuster proof majority.
jsfox
@Rock: Good grief aren’t you a ray of sunshine.
I realize most were not paying attention, but Wisconsin was not the only election yesterday. There was a special in the NH’s Strafford County 3rd district. Bob Perry the D won the seat handily, 58% -42%, in a historically strong Republican district.
This was the second special election in NH where the Democrats took a seat from the Republicans and took it by wide margins. One of the major issues driving the flips is the Republican attacks on collective bargaining here. There are two more special in Sepetember and they both are looking like strong Democratic wins.
So take your gloom and doom else where.
Mike Goetz
@liberal:
I rather like her, though I’m not sure I qualify as a full-blooded Juicer.
TooManyJens
@Rock:
FTFY.
No, they don’t.
Samara Morgan
@Freddie deBoer:
???
i guess i missed that.
can i have the link please?
i dislike you now …i liked you when you were a liberal, before you became a civil libertarian and and an emoprog scold.
:)
@Ash Can: TNC dont either!
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
We all knew the msm was going to spin it this way. If Wisconsin Democrats had won 3 seats they would have gone one about how they cannot repeal the laws already passed, so what was the effort about.
this has got to be viewed as a long process, where Wisconsin was the first of many battles. Wisconsin showed us what the minimal effort is going to be for a few years. Now the rest of the Democrats have to decide if they are willing to put in this effort.
aimai
I think its important to remember that electoral results for a given state senate district are an entirely different kettle of fish from what happens organizationally speaking for a state wide, or national, referendum like the Governor’s race, the Senate, and the Presidency.
In this age of political dissaffection and disgust its a HUGE deal to get ordinary democrats, especially those living in predominantly Republican neighborhoods and districts, out to vote. Organizing, seeing the national perspective in a local race, and GOTV will make a difference in the Walker recall effort, in Senate Races and in the Presidential race. If the Dems didn’t win a State Senate seat in a ++ Republican district but they brought 2000 people to the polls that’s a huge victory that can be built on at a regional level. Get those 2000 people out again and the Dems can retake the state–as long as the Republicans get discouraged instead. So fight as hard as you can against discouragement. If you don’t get off your ass and vote for lost causes you probably won’t be at the poll for the winning ones either.
aimai
Southern Beale
I am completely disgusted by the liberal hand-wringing over this. Two nasty-ass Republicans are OUT OF A JOB. Christ. This is why we can’t have nice things. EVen when we win, we lose.
Look, we all knew if the Dems took back the Wisconsin Senate the MSM would bury the news on the back pages, and if they failed in that grand scheme, it would be a “repudiation of Obama/Democrats/unions/liberals” blabbedy blah. This is as sure as the sun rising in the east. That doesn’t mean we have to swallow their turd tea, people.
If the shoe had been on the other foot and Wisconsin’s governor were a Democrat, it would have been a “stunning rebuke of liberals.” We KNOW this. It’s always Republican Rules in America. It’s always good news for Republicans, Democrats are always to blame and it’s IOKIYAR all the time.
Stop yer whining. I’m celebrating. Two fucking nasty-ass Republicans DOWN IN FLAMES. I’ll take it.
Samara Morgan
@Freddie deBoer: link please, where you showed my realid :)
how could that make me mad if i haven’t seen it?
grandpajohn
Well there is one moderate repub that has voted against some of Walkers most extreme actions by the name of Shultz I believe it is They were talking about him last night on the ED show on MSNBC
Strandedvandal
@Southern Beale: Amen.
Petorado
The true test of the recall’s success rests with how it will affect the Wisconsin legislature from here on out. If Republican legislators no longer feel as cocky as they once did and drift away from the Tea Party hard line and back to somewhere closer to reality, this effort will have succeeded. Further, the R’s will be haunted by constituents just saying the word “recall” when they deal with controversial measures. Two of their group were prevented from finishing their elected terms of office. As Biden said, that’s a big f’ing deal.
Or they will remain the immoral, crass, and soulless goons we fear they really are. Time will tell.
Mike Goetz
@eric:
Any set up in which Idaho, Wyoming and Kansas combined have more representation than New York and California combined is not going to deliver the maximum of what we want. That it delivers any of what we want is borderline miraculous.
ppcli
@Rock:
Apparently the Koch Industries Rent-a-Troll manual doesn’t include the instruction “If you are going to pull false claims out of your ass, make sure that they aren’t easily seen to be false by anyone who takes the ten seconds needed to check. This helps people to realize that everything else you say is worthless too.” I hope they’ll add it to the next edition.
Berial
As someone who isn’t from Wisconsin and doesn’t know the demographics of the precincts in play, I can see how the election could be seen as a loss for Democrats.
I mean, all I’ve heard is how completely awful the Republicans have been running the state, and then, after all that, you can only win 1/3 of the vote? That can easily sound bad from the outside. Especially when it’s mentioned that way, instead of 2 Republicans are now out of a job where they wouldn’t have been normally.
Max Power
@eric:
Not what I was referring to. I was responding to Rock’s idea of a “GOP Wave” in 2012, which doesn’t match with reality right now. Again, this was a re-call election for local state legislators. Democrats knocked off 2 sitting Republicans, almost 2. If anything is a “national harbinger,” it’s Kathy Hochul’s win in a deep red NY congressional district. The GOP brand is on the decline.
Oh and BTW, Rock is a Koch troll.
Samara Morgan
@Freddie deBoer: In fact, I’ve never argued such a thing about Obama.
dr. bloor
@ppcli:
Way too many words for the target audience. Anything more complex than “fling poo” goes right over their heads.
Brachiator
I don’t quite see the point of this. You are confusing background and historical analysis with politics. I don’t care how many recalls there have been or how hard it is. Tell me something about how the recall effort affects the Democrats’ ability to accomplish something in the state or to block the Republicans.
To describe something as “a big deal” is meaningless, weak tea cheerleading.
@eric:
Is there some other way to constitute the country? Is the country limited with respect to how batshit crazy conservative the country can be? It’s funny how the Tea Party people and their followers are not wasting a lot of time talking about how hard it may be for them to gain power. They are simply working to get what they want. Liberals should be doing the same thing.
Dave
This is fine, but the election was over all of 11 hours ago. It takes a sensitive reactionary trigger to start complaining about media coverage now, doesn’t it?
Anyway, liberals are awfully quick to play this card. Just gloat if you want to.
eric
@Max Power: I agree with you as well….I think Citizens United will, however, also mute democratic gains in down ballot elections.
Samara Morgan
@Freddie deBoer: link please?
ppcli
@Southern Beale: Absolutely. I might add that one of the two newly unemployed Republicans is the wife-and-kids-leaving, lobbyist-young-enough-to-be-his-daughter-shagging, not-even-in-the-district-living “family values” douchebag Randy Hopper [possibly his porn pseudonym].
Now when I consider the otherwise heartbreaking unemployment statistics, at least I can soften the blow by remembering that Hopper is among them.
grandpajohn
@aimai: Yes, this, The results here actually sound encouraging for a walker recall. People need to remember, in the recall election for the governor the voting is for the entire state, not selected districts in which the repubs have the majority. winning 2 seats in districts that are majority republican to start with is in its self a victory, not total victory but still a win.This now puts the spotlight on the 1 moderate republican
that has in the past rejected some of walkers most extreme acts.
eric
@Brachiator: If you have a plan for electing a moderate dem in Alabama, Mississippi, Utah, Kansas, Oklahoma, I am all ears. I am not saying that we dont fight. I am saying that we understand that not everyone that chooses to moderate his or her message is a traitor to the “cause.”
Donut
@Southern Beale:
Thank you! I’m tired of bitching about what President Obama is or isn’t doing and how unfair it is that the national media is aligned with the GOP, and Jane Hamsher is a bad person So fucking what? Get over it.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
I changed my sig on GOS to “Anyone who whines about the Wisconsin election is not a Democrat.” I realize the contradiction, how can you be a Democrat if you’re not allowed to whine. But any reaction other than “We won two hard fought seats” is what is wrong with the party right now. While I am more than willing to have a big tent, a common goal right now needs to be the fewer Republicans running things, the better.
Freddie deBoer
Is there some other way to constitute the country? Is the country limited with respect to how batshit crazy conservative the country can be? It’s funny how the Tea Party people and their followers are not wasting a lot of time talking about how hard it may be for them to gain power. They are simply working to get what they want. Liberals should be doing the same thing.
@Brachiator:
The country as it is currently constituted is resistant to liberal governance because our congress gives wildly disproportionate representation to low-population conservative states. Also: Wisconsin is liberals working to get what they want.
Matoko, you can email me if you want. I’m asking you to drop all the personal shit because if it bores me, I can’t imagine how boring it is for the readers around here.
jl
I am pleased by the Wisconsin recall results, and consider my contributions to the recall money well spent.
As I understand it, the recalls last night were in swing or slightly GOP districts, and the Democratic candidates won in two and came close in two more.
That sounds like a good start to me.
The media can talk its usual nonsense. Politicians will take note.
It should be clear by now that the media, political and financial power structure in the US is now well to right of Eisenhower Republicans. That seems to include the Obama administration, though they should know better.
The alternative to forging ahead is somewhere between a continued bad dream and (if worse comes to worse) a nightmare.
I am satisfied, and more inspired to do some old fashioned precinct walking for the next election. I don’t understand the whining and defeatism.
Stillwater
@Freddie deBoer: My argument simply is not what they say it is.
You’re argument (the central one) is two-fold: that you feel you have the right to express disappointment at both Obama and the Democratic party for the policies enacted, and that people who criticize Obama critics are reinforcing, or even apologizing for, those bad policy decisions. You’re additional argument is how to reverse the rightward trend in the Democratic party.
I think everyone gets this. Here’s my take on what BJers are trying to accomplish (wrt your comment): keep the actual facts of today’s political and media world squarely on the table; reject hyperbolic views about Democrats and Obama that aren’t consistent with or deny those facts; and challenge the idea that sufficient LOUD WHINING will actually move the center back the left.
Insofar as your argument is about tactics, I don’t think you’ve made it: you’ve merely suggested that a vocal left-flank will accomplish … something … and criticize BJers as getting in the way of this: of being apologists. Personally, I don’t see how reinforcing the idea that the Democratic Party sucks will lead to a better Democratic party (it’s sorta incoherent, isn’t it?), or move things back to the left. In the current system, that movement requires votes and money. Alternatively, structural changes to political institutions (IRV, public funding for campaigns, etc) could lead to left-ward movement.
Samara Morgan
@Freddie deBoer: well no….you said it was a gay girl in damascus moment.
how could i have seen it?
i have never mailed you.
did you accuse me publically and that pissed me off?
that is what you just claimed.
link please.
Jewish Steel
@Freddie deBoer:
If nobody is clear what your argument is, that is the fault of…?
Also2: New FPers should probably be given a window in which to establish their blogging and commenting style without m_c intruding. It’s a pointless distraction.
Len
There is another good thing to come out of this. At least the teachers, policemen and policewomen and other public servants in Wisconsin found out how their fellow citizens really feel about them and how much they are valued.
Freddie deBoer
Insofar as your argument is about tactics, I don’t think you’ve made it
Then I’ll have to do better.
If nobody is clear what your argument is, that is the fault of…?
Mine.
Berial
Freddie deBoer
I see this a lot from lefty bloggers/commentors. Are you really opposed to having a Senate?
Trinity
Freddie, I would suggest ignoring Matoko. I can’t even see any Matoko comments. Blocked??
Southern Beale
Alright, I just took my comment and turned it into a blog post, complete with totally awesome kiss-off song track to two unemployed Repukes. Bye-bye fellas. Oh, turn the volume up on this one …
Jewish Steel
@Stillwater: Yes. That’s what I thought he was saying too. Am I crazy?
Samara Morgan
@Freddie deBoer: did you stalk my IP freddie? right now i rent so i can keep my horse.
or perhaps you think im a guy? from when i lived with my fiancee Hates-Anime?
is that what the gay-girl-in-damascus reference means?
classy freddie.
you have totally lost your sass.
Stillwater
@Freddie deBoer: It’s funny how the Tea Party people and their followers are not wasting a lot of time talking about how hard it may be for them to gain power. They are simply working to get what they want. Liberals should be doing the same thing.
The Teaparty is the construct of predominantly old white people funded by uber-wealthy free-market libertarians and promoted 24/7 by a partisan rightwing news network.
Those people didn’t ‘work’ to get what they want. It was bought for them.
Freddie deBoer
I see this a lot from lefty bloggers/commentors. Are you really opposed to having a Senate?
I’m conflicted. But it certainly makes change difficult.
Stillwater, that section was actually a quote of another commenter. I meant to put it in italics.
Freddie deBoer
Matoko– freddie7 AT gmail DOT com. And now I’m done talking with you.
Pink Snapdragon
@NobodySpecial: I really don’t get all this doom & gloom stuff. Freddie is right. I had a law school professor who toiled in the civil rights movement for years. He was always telling us that real victories are won incrementally, not in big leaps over night, but none of us wanted to hear it. Do you not believe that the republicans threw everything they had at those 6 seats? Of course they did. And they lost 2 of them. We know how the media respond to these things. Our efforts might be more productive if we directed energy towards reframing the arguments in the media. I don’t know how to do that, but if we figured it out we could direct our efforts where it would make a difference rather than shouting at each other.
And one more thing, Samara, you ignorant twit of a child-woman, take your Koran and game theory book and go play in the sandbox. The grown-ups have work to do.
Jewish Steel
@Freddie deBoer: And just to be clear, I generally disagree with your POV, but I think you make for a smashing FPer here. You seem most thoughtful.
Do stay!
ETA: And post frequently!
gwangung
I will quote Coates:
I would repeat that last sentence: NOW DO IT AGAIN.
That is moving the fucking Overton Window.
Jinxtigr
@no video at work:
I’m sure they will, and the combination of that sort of thing plus a really relentless media carpetbombing in which the Democrats and leftwingers are totally dismissed and shut out…
is the same formula that produced London rioting.
It’s the combination of gutting people’s livelihoods and taking away all social safety-nets with silencing and blocking view of their protests and uprisings that causes a breakdown so severe that rioting can happen.
Did you know that there have been marches against police brutality in Wisconsin, just as there had been in London? I’m now wondering if they became part of the narrative or were locked out of media coverage.
At this point, only tea party rallies (even of like six people) make the US media. I’m thinking we have many of the same pre-conditions that London had.
Wisconsin is helping to lay those pre-conditions in place.
Even the trolls coming here and saying ‘face it, 100% of everybody votes Republican, expect a wave election sweeping all Rats away’ (diebold diebold diebold live by the bold die by the bold) are helping to lay the grounds for rioting. The more effective the ‘disappearing’ is, the quicker the rioting breaks out.
Oddly, this is an argument for the way Obama tends to legitimize and treat as part of the narrative, the crazy rightwinger demands. People here want him to ‘disappear’ from discourse their madness, but if what I’m saying is true, then doing that would produce RIGHT wing rioting, which I don’t think would be helpful. We’re already seeing enough right wing violence around the world.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Freddie deBoer: I’m certainly bored, but even I got the gay girl in Damascus reference (to the male, IIRC, blogger who fabricated that identity and then was “outed”).
Sly
If the union revitalization effort peters out because they’re discouraged they didn’t win a stunning upset in Wisconsin, the results from last night were bad. If efforts are redoubled, not merely in Wisconsin but in other states where anti-union policies are flourishing, the results were good.
You can’t focus on the perceptions of a distant political press that has long since lost its connection to political culture beyond the Beltway. That way madness lies. The importance of the Washington press is that they serve as the mouthpiece of elite Washington opinion, so read them like you would read The Weekly Standard or National Review; to discover what adversaries are thinking and devise ways to counter it.
Also, too, for the sake of mockery.
@Berial:
Speaking as someone who would likely not be viewed by many as a “lefty,” I am certainly opposed to having a Senate for the simple reason that it creates more problems than it intends to solve. It doesn’t bring the concerns of state governments to Washington any more than House delegations, it is much more vulnerable to systemic dysfunction that the House (and not just for the past few years… since the 1790s), and it probably does more to entrench the interests of the political class than any other institution in American life.
But we’ll never be rid of it because it helps Americans not pay attention to politics, a state of affairs that Americans overwhelmingly prefer.
Brachiator
@eric:
Interesting non sequitur. I have no time for any “traitor to the cause” nonsense. You said “As currently constituted, America is structurally limited as to how progressive or liberal it can be.” I was curious as to how else you could see the country “constituted.”
But if there are limits to what liberals and progressives can achieve, then the rational question is “why fight?” If you don’t think you can win, “why fight?” If you don’t think you deserve to win, if you don’t think that you have message that can motivate and move people, then why fight?
And if you are all about exquisitely delineating the limits to what you can achieve, do you really expect people to join your side?
@Freddie deBoer:
I think you are mainly referring here to the US Senate, not the entire Congress.
True, which is why how the election relates to liberal efforts is more interesting to me, and more important, than stuff about how hard it is mount successful recall challenges. I want to know what people in Wisconsin are going to do next, not some judgment about what is or is not a “big deal.”
Alwhite
@Jinxtigr:
I agree about the riot thing – my conspiracy theory is that the Koch whores are actually communist saboteurs. They want to destroy capitalism’s reputation and when the average guy or gal sees no hope & nothing to lose there will be a bloody revolt.
Since many commenters have missed to fact I want to repeat it: one of the two D winners last night only lost by 169 votes to the guy he beat. That is not a big win. This had the entire union and liberal attention and money running against very ugly opponents it should never have been close. There are the two D recalls next week but it looks like they will hold their jobs. If I were a Republican I would say “They just threw everything they had at us and we still held the majority – carry on!”
Omnes Omnibus
@Alwhite: Do you have any idea how much money the GOP and its supporters had to throw at these elections to only to lose two seats?
Caz
Didn’t this site collect money or lead a fundraising campaign for these recall elections? And wasn’t it the juicetard nation opinion that this would be a huge statement from the voters and those evil conservatives would be ousted??
Now all of a sudden it’s no surprise?? LOL, ok, whatever. Deny much??
Omnes Omnibus
@Caz: Yep, and for their pains they got rid of two GOP state senators.
Heliopause
I agree that last night was good news, though of course not as good as it could have been. The main thing is establishing that extremism and mendacity will not go unchallenged, and actually costing two of those people their seats showed that it was not just an empty threat. Also, when you’re only one seat shy of a majority there are more scenarios for things going your way than when you’re three seats shy.
Scott P.
Here are the bottom ten states by population:
41: Maine (Blue)
42: New Hampshire (turning Blue)
43: Rhode Island (Blue)
44: Montana (Red)
45: Delaware (Blue)
46: South Dakota (Red)
47: Alaska (Red)
48: North Dakota (Blue)
49: Vermont (Blue)
50: Wyoming: (Red)
That’s 5 Red, 4 Blue, and one Purple. Add to that the fact that many of those Red States have produced Democratic Senators (North Dakota, Daschle from South Dakota, Tester from Montana), and it’s simply not true that Republicans get a huge boost from low-population states.
Head Bulshytt Talker in Chief of the Temple of Libertarianism(superluminar)
@Omnes
Do you still have to recuse yourself from WI discussion, or are you now free to speak on the subject?
Ordovician Bighorn Dolomite (formerly rarely seen poster Fe E)
@Scott P.:
I think it’s more “conservatives” get a boost as opposed to “Republicans.” A lot of the reasons the healthcare debate was such a fiasco was maneuvering by various conservative Senate Democrats–like the guys from NoDak, and Max Baucus etc.
Omnes Omnibus
@Head Bulshytt Talker in Chief of the Temple of Libertarianism(superluminar): I really should stay out of anything but generalities.
jwest
Based on the Wisconsin results, there is only one strategy for democrats in 2012.
Two republicans lost the recall election. One was in a district that went for Obama by 60% and that Walker didn’t receive 50% in his gubernatorial race. The other republican recently had an affair with a 25 year old staffer and moved out of the district.
If democrat women in the 25 year old range could be persuaded to offer themselves up to any republican holding any office, then make the affair public just prior to the election, there is a slim chance that democrats could gain some seats to offset otherwise massive losses.
Thoughtcrime
Josh Marshall at TPM has a positive take on the results:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2011/08/was_it_worth_it_1.php?ref=fpblg
liberal
@Scott P.:
Nope. We’re talking the Senate here, right? Maine’s senators are to the right of every single Democratic Senator.
liberal
@Brachiator:
Of course, but the difference is that liberals aren’t being showered with money from above.
liberal
@Stillwater:
Yep.
That shouldn’t be an excuse, though. It should be part of a realistic assessment that those on the right have a much easier task.
Samara Morgan
@Freddie deBoer: nope.
you said im pissed at you because you outed me as a “gay girl in damascus” clone.
So where is it?
we dont email.
give the link please.
Samara Morgan
@Freddie deBoer:
so where did you point that out?
we dont mail. it must have been in public.
link please.
Head Bulshytt Talker in Chief of the Temple of Libertarianism(superluminar)
@Omnes
Ah, ok. Wasn’t meant as a dig BTW, just wanted some clarification. Thanks.
Samara Morgan
@Freddie deBoer: c’mon freddie….how could i have seen it to get mad about it if it doesn’t exist?
if you are going to de-crendential me or acccuse me of being a “gay-girl-in-damascus”, just go ahead and do it in front of Cole and everone.
link please.
Corner Stone
@Samara Morgan: You have to be 30+ by now, I don’t care what gender you are.
Samara Morgan
@Corner Stone: so?
you can read my old blogs and guess my age if you like. theres even a few pictures.
i want to see where freddie outed me and pissed me off.
it has to be public for me to see it, we have never mailed.
Corner Stone
@Samara Morgan: I’m going with early 30’s, under 35.
Elie
@Rock:
you make a number of fundamental errors. First, these were already republican districts, so the effort to flip them would be higher and getting two was a victory.
Two, the working class needs real information and education that is hard to penetrate in the short time since this whole flare up started. You can change people’s minds, but remember, these districts had already voted for republicans recently, and it makes no sense that they would change their minds about the role of collective bargaining and its importance that fast. Remember, we have had two decades or more of anti-union perspective across the whole nation
three, I think that the republicans should be very wary of concluding that things are just fine. The democrats winning those two seats in republican districts are a warning in an off year election.
Yes unions and democrats have more work to do and I think that they would go far to put it less about supporting unions per se, than supporting certain fair labor practices across the board… I think that is happening but not all the results are measurable at the polls yet.
Just my 2 cents anyway..
Elie
@liberal:
While liberals aren’t being showered with money from above, there are still enormous financial benefits for people to support workplace and job fairness policy. You only have to look at what happened to the auto and other manufacturing which used to mean good jobs that people could raise families on and also support a stong consumer driven economy. Busting the unions just put all those jobs at lower income levels with less buying power and less power to stabilize communities and school systems. There has been a huge domino effect from that lost wage power, so regaining even some of it is directly to the benefit of the average joe bread winner.
So you are right, we can’t argue for an immediate pay off, but the pay off we push has a substantial and long lasting benefit for our constituents.
Marc
@jwest:
That reminds me of something. What is it?
Oh yea. “Democrats only lost the Massachusetts Senate seat to Brown because Coakley was a bad campaigner;” I heard that, a lot. It turned out to be a preview of 2010 instead.
If I was a republican like you I’d be worried about what just happened. But it’s in my interests for you to be oblivious. So, on second thought, carry on.
Arundel
Matoko, I found the link.
Samara Morgan
and for the juicers.
the reason i dont like freddie now is that hes not a liberal anymore. in the culture eleven days he was a liberal. hes morphed into some neoliberal emoprog farming for pageclicks and attacking big name bloggers on his way to a paid gig some where.
just like Kain.
and hes using Cole and you juicers just like Kain did.
membah this freddie?
that was when i liked you.
Samara Morgan
@Freddie deBoer:
link please.
Samara Morgan
@Arundel: thank you, LoOG sockpuppet.
Alwhite
@Omnes Omnibus:
Do you know how much money, and how much manpower the unions and liberals had to throw into this campaign to only lose 4 campaigns?
Alwhite
@Elie:
Except they weren’t republican districts. One went of Obama by 60% and Walker drew less than 50%. The guy that won that only lost by 169 votes then so it was not hard to imagine that could have been flipped.
The other district I don’t have numbers for but the incumbent had left his family for his hot young intern & moved out of the district.
Those two were gimmes. We spent a lot of time, effort and money running against some really despicable people and only took those two seats.
Samara Morgan
Hey TNC, Ryan.
i can answer that.
Because it worked for EDK…amirite Kay?
Kain parleyed his BJ stint into a labour roundtable and the presidents ear.
and then he recanted…. once he had locked down the paying gig.
Samara Morgan
@Alwhite: yes, assclown, so we should just give up.
the country is still half bubba….we dont get to escape from Distributed Jesusland until the demographic timer goes off.
jefft452
“The guy that won that only lost by 169 votes then so it was not hard to imagine that could have been flipped…</i?
So just how often do incumbents who win by a hair get booted out by the voters b4 their term is over?
” We spent a lot of time, effort and money running against some really despicable people and only took those two seats”
How much did money did some really despicable people spend to lose only those two seats?
jefft452
“In this case the MSM is right—this is excellent news for Republicans. It’s a harbinger of a likely Republican wave in 2012 …”
So you think Republican incumbents will be replaced by Democrats in 1 out of every 3 races?
that would be a wave allright