I was driving yesterday and caught a bit of George McGovern on the Diane Rehm show.
Rehm: […]And let me just tell you that Republican Presidential candidate Michele Bachmann told Floridians on Sunday that hurricane Irene and the earthquake felt along much of the East coast, last week were messages from God to warn politicians to start heeding divine guidance. I’m not sure what that means, but I wonder about your own thoughts.
McGovern: Well, I know Congresswoman Bachmann insists that she’s following the word of God at all times, that God told her to run for president and He’s guiding her in what she says. I think that’s pretty risky ground to be on. You know, and then blaming this hurricane on God, 21 people were killed in that hurricane and my heart goes out to all of those families, but I don’t think that was God intervening to try to teach us a lesson.
Let me tell you about a little story I experienced when I was 10 years old. I was watching two of my friends peg a baseball back and forth and one ball went high, it went out into the street with the person that it was intended for hard after it, right into the path of an oncoming truck. He was killed instantly. And a few minutes later, the minister from our church came over and he said to the mother, well, Mrs. So-and-so, I know this is a hard day for you, but this was God’s will. She says, no, reverend, I don’t think so. I think Roger just didn’t look where he was going.
Well, I agreed with the mother. I don’t think it’s right for us to blame these tragedies, […] to blame all the calamities on God and say, that’s his way of publishing — of punishing us. I wouldn’t be interested in a God who deliberately kills people in order to give them a lesson, so I think in all due respects to Mrs. Bachmann, who may be a very fine woman, I don’t know her, I’ve never met her, but I don’t think that she has a monopoly on the word of God.
That’s a pretty good political story – a little bit of light b.s. (who knows what happened in 1932 when McGovern was 10), an overall gentle tone, and a pretty powerful message.
Odie Hugh Manatee
It may be an anecdotal story but it still resonates. Too many christians like the idea of a god of anger and retribution. It’s easy to blame bad things on anything but what they really should be blamed on. It’s a human way of avoiding facts, something we are really good at.
schlemizel - was Alwhite
I always wondered why people who survive some horrible event & thank God for their escape never blame him for all the damage left behind. If He cured you of some horrible disease why did he give it to you in the first place? If he spared you from the wreck why did he allow other to die? If he told Batshit to run for Prez why did he also (according to them) also tell Perry, Cain, Froth mix and a couple of others to run?
Outside the Onion, why does the Superbowl losing quarterback never claim God did it to punish him?
capt
I’m sure she thinks GAWD speaks only to her.
She starts every campaign stop with a prayer, funny how that is never reported.
I dunno why GAWD would have us bother with elections. Just do what some crazy lady says because GAWD told her, you do not want to mess with GAWD – right?
Admiral_Komack
…and it’s a lot nicer than saying, “Michele Bachmann is full of shit.”
Raven (formerly stuckinred)
Aw what does that liberal bomber pilot know?
The Ancient Randonneur
Chris T.
Seems to me there’s just as good an argument that these are messages from God to warn politicians that the Tea Party is wrongheaded.
schlemizel - was Alwhite
Someone should ask Batshit exactly what message it is the Great Hairy Thunderer is trying to send. Those two “messages” hit Virginia a state not about to legalize gay marriage or abortion. It also seems that The Great Green Arkleseizure has been kicking the living shit out of Texas for some time now. Despite The Right Reverend Perry’s prayer campaign, anti-gay, anti-“socialist”, anti-abortion, anti-evolution and anti-muslim crusades.
Maybe He is actually FOR those things & against Batshit & Perry and their insane stupidity. Or maybe He is a complete psycho who just gets off on hurting the defenseless and causing as much suffering and anxiety as possible.
Maybe, just maybe, these are events that are not directed by any higher being & happen for no external reason at all.
Mark S.
I’ve become pretty fond of the Diane Rehm show. I have to say, though, she would not approve of all the salty language on this blog. She doesn’t tolerate that kind of shit from callers.
Cat Lady
GodEd Rollins is telling her she’s fUxx0red now that he quit her campaign. Let’s see how she explains that.Baud
God works in mysterious ways…unless his actions further a conservative agenda, then his ways are all too clear.
Are there any moderate to liberal Christians left in this country? If so, at what point will they start acting to take back their religion?
Mark S.
@schlemizel – was Alwhite:
He wants them all together when he throws that thunderbolt.
PK
Why did God want my basement to be flooded? Maybe I should take a picture of my flooded basement and send it to congress so politicians can cut aid to homeless shelters. I think that is the plan God has for me.
JD Rhoades
ISTR reading that Bachmann is now falling back on the usual wingnut dodge that “it was all a joke.”
@Cat Lady:
I’ve read Rollins’ bio. He seems to love working for evil assholes and then trashing them in public when they don’t listen to him. I’m amazed that the sumbitch ever gets hired.
ornery
Why couldn’t God have been expressing disfavor at erecting a Free Market god of Mammon instead of honoring His path of peace and goodwill to men? Or building a vast military and starting wars … imprisoning and impoverishing His once-free people? Or setting up souless business constructs, corporations, to have the same agency and rights as His own Creation … or the poisoning and destruction to His world in the name of Mammon?
Why must we concede that ‘punishment’ would only be due those trying to create a fair and just society … but never the lying, thieving, power-aggrandizing finger pointers?
Notice that the tornadoes in the Midwest have never been claimed to be from God as punishment by the false Christians; only opponents to their venal political causes and people they hate are being punished.
Ash Can
@Cat Lady: I was just going to make some observation about God telling Bachmann’s campaign manager and first deputy to abandon ship. You beat me to it. :)
JD Rhoades
@Baud:
My in-laws are very devout, and very liberal, as are a lot of members of their church.
Also, too: there was a recent capital case being tried in my county that ended Saturday in a verdict of second degree murder, therefore, he got life (142 years) rather than the death penalty. The usual anonymous online lynch mob erupted, screaming that “justice was not done because now we have to feed that fat SOB and give him top of the line medical care,” etc. One of the few dissenting voices was from a professed Christian talking about forgiveness and how only God could decide who lives or dies. He was attacked in the most vicious terms of course, but I admired him for his stand.
dr. bloor
Naturally, McGovern lost in a landslide to Dick Fucking Nixon.
What a country.
dr. bloor
@Mark S.:
I listened to her for a time and she seems like her heart and mind are in the right place, but frankly, her show is among the worst of the “balanced views for the sake of balance” gabfests.
BruceFromOhio
Bachmann does not give a tin shit what anyone thinks. She’s waving the Jeebus Card because it helps herd the flocks of sheep stupid enough to vote for her.
May Gaia and the Flying Spaghetti Monster conspire to sink her campaign as a way of GAWD telling her to fuck off already.
Baud
@schlemizel – was Alwhite:
Because true believers don’t lose Superbowls. SATSQ.
I’m actually not offended by people who thank God for otherwise random good things that happen to them, but I get very offended when people attribute bad things to God’s wrath. I’m sure there is a good reason for this seemingly illogical thinking, but I couldn’t tell you what it is.
Baud
@JD Rhoades: Good for them. I just don’t see that people like your in-laws have much of a presence on the national stage.
russell
McGovern is a decent and fair-minded guy. It’s sad how startling it is to hear somebody talk like that.
Mark S.
@dr. bloor:
Give her a break! Let’s see you do a radio show when you’re 130 years old.
Ash Can
@Baud: Moderate/liberal Christians are trying to do that all the time, for all the good it does. When Catholic leaders stand up for immigrants, they’re ignored. But when some power-mad bishop denies some pro-choice politician communion, he grabs headlines. Likewise, if someone waves a bible at Paul Ryan and tells him his budget plan would hurt vulnerable people, he’s a lone crackpot. But wealthy megachurch CEOs are seen as mainstream, legitimate religious leaders. Even here on this blog, when we moderate/liberal Christians claim that Bachmann’s pseudo-religious drivel isn’t Christianity, we’re jumped on and told we can’t make that distinguishment; Bachmann is Christian just like us and we’re all the same.
What’s the point? Sure, I for one will keep trying to make it, but who’s listening? It’s like the Muslim leaders and people who look at terrorism in the name of Islam and say “That’s not Islam,” and being roundly ignored (and then later having non-Muslims turn around and say to them, “Why aren’t you refudiating the violence?”).
ericblair
@ornery:
Not to mention the South is probably going to take it on the chin in the next few decades due to global warming, which a lot of its inhabitants think is a Bullshit Librul Plot.
The real problem is when local officials use “God will provide” as a disaster planning strategy. It happens. Most of the time, God turns out to work through those FEMA guys, apparently.
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
Today’s TalEvangicals would say it was because Roger would have grown up to be a gay abortionist so God took him out early.
Funny how the TalEvangicals believe Bad Shit Happens to You = Message from God, while Bad Shit Happens to Me = Waaah, the Devil is Testing Me!
And here’s a question: If a natural disaster strikes in an unpopulated area, do they think that is a message or is God practicing for the next reminder to go to church?
And another: Our hurricanes are generated off the coast of Africa. Does that make the continent God’s Secret Hideout?
Whatever, most people find this shit alarming and not a little nauseating. I personally hope she takes her Neener, neener act to California. Or back to Florida after it has suffered a direct hit by a large weather system.
Southern Beale
Oh oh oh can I play this game? Pretty please!
Rick Perry asked God to send rain. Instead He sent fire. What does THAT tell you?
See how easy that was?
Southern Beale
I’ve posted this here before, but the September issue of Harper’s Magazine has “A Letter To Barack Obama” by George McGovern. It’s excellent.
I love Harper’s. Unfortunately you need to subscribe to read it online.
Xenos
I am impressed by the Muslim approach to catastrophe – praise God. Same as the Muslim approach to good fortune – praise God. It is all the same, really.
If there is a god who cares at all about us, and who plays some role causing or diverting fortune and misfortune then it makes no sense to be angry with that god. Might as well accept it is a mystery and not make an theological issue about it.
Napoleon
@dr. bloor:
Bingo – this is a show that has people like mark krikorian and John Fund on it for balance.
Gin & Tonic
@Southern Beale: I’ve seen fire, and I’ve seen rain.
Sorry, had to do it. I’ll run off to work now.
PurpleGirl
@Baud: There are still a lot of them around, in mainstream Protestant churches and Catholic congregations. Unfortunately, the mainstream media ignore them because they don’t get the all-important response that the crazy ones get. I don’t see the corporate press as interested in their stories.
Southern Beale
@Gin & Tonic:
LOL.
Now I have a brain worm. You dirty rat!
Baud
@Ash Can: I get you, and I even agree with you that you have a harder time being heard than the right-wing side. But this has been going on for some time now, and I have yet to see any fire-in-the-belly response from the left side of Christianity. Maybe it’s there, but I don’t rely solely on traditional media, and I don’t see it.
I mean, Jesus Christ, you guys were fed to lions and still took over the Roman Empire. Dealing with an apathetic media should be child’s play.
ETA: @PurpleGirl also.
gene108
If God told all the GOP candidates to run, I think we should let God sort them out.
Stay home on your primary day. Do not vote in the primary elections.
That way the winner will be the person chosen directly by God as His favored champion against the anti-Christ-Muslim-Socialist-Communist-Saul Alynsky loving-Kenyan-Usurper-and-Chief, without human interference.
Southern Beale
I know this makes me a terrible person but I simply cannot listen to Diane Rehm. Her voice puts my teeth on edge. I think she has that same medical condition that Robert Kennedy Jr. has, but honestly I can’t listen to him either.
Linda Featheringill
@ericblair:
I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. But you’re quite correct: It does happen.
MonkeyBoy
I remember a story I was told by someone describing the event that made him an atheist. It went something like this:
His grandfather was in the hospital dying a slow painful death. When he asked his visiting religious leader about why God was doing this the response was that his grandfather didn’t have enough faith in God – if he did then he wouldn’t be suffering this punishment.
In other words a blame the victim approach to knowing God, where the converse is that rich or healthy people must have the best faith because God rewards them so well.
kdaug
@Southern Beale:
Should be online once the Oct. issue goes to press, no?
And ditto – I probably have 20 years of back issues, plus the 100-year anniversary’s “American Album”. Not normally a pack rat, but Harper’s is my exception.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Linda Featheringill: I believe God provided local officials to do the disaster planning.
Don K
@Ash Can:
I hear you. My Mom was a devout Presbyterian, but pretty level-headed on most things (race, sex, abortion), so I know such exotic creatures exist. In the present environment, however, I’ll admit that when I find out someone is a Christian, I automatically assume they’re a warmongering bigot who believes every sperm is sacred, has Ebenezer Scrooge’s attitude towards the poor, and would throw me in jail if given half a chance, and it’s up to them to prove otherwise.
Unfair I know, but moderate and liberal Christians have allowed their religion to be defined by the haters.
Chris
@Baud:
Yeah, there’s lots. For all the good it does. But the biggest and richest churches and institutions around are all fundiee. As Ash Can points out, Catholic leaders stand up for immigrants, or poor people, or against war, all the time, but they get little or no support from the USCCB.
This.
Same reason in both religions – all the money and power are on the side of the fundies.
Chris
@Don K:
I’m not quite there. Let’s say I assume that if a person wears his Christianity on his sleeve, odds are better than even that he’s… everything you just said.
The moderates and liberals tend to be more modest and more discrete about it.
Amir Khalid
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
Then who provided “Heckuvajob” Brownie?
Amir Khalid
@Chris:
I believe Ash Can is asking why Muslims in America (and elsewhere) who speak up to denounce the terrorists among our brethren usually get little if any acknowledgement from non-Muslims.
Linda Featheringill
@Ash Can:
The moderates are fighting an uphill battle. I think that this is partly because the society as a whole likes the idea of God as Personal Assistant, rather than themselves as servants of God.
pk
You know if Fox News had been around during the time of the Romans they would have firmly been on the side of the Romans. The Christians would have been the treasonous traitors trying to subvert the system. And CNN would have Wolf Blitzer in a Toga asking ” Is being fed to the lions more painful than crucifiction? Some think not”.
Dave
This is because Bachmann, and too many other “Christians” believe in what I think of as “Lazy Man Christianity”. Where people treat God like their personal manservant and assign Him all praise (or blame) because its just easier that way. Which makes a mockery of the whole belief system.
That’s not how it works. We can pray to God for comfort, understanding and wisdom should we desire to do so. We can pray to God for strength to see us through bad times. But we cannot pray to God to intervene and simply fix things or blame him for the bad stuff. That flies in the face of Free Will and implies that God will put his thumb on the scales if we ask nicely enough and often enough. And that simply isn’t how it is.
Chris
@Amir Khalid:
I stand corrected.
(In that case, there’s a pretty large amount of media and popular bias involved. The media’s following the storyline of “crazy Muslims be crazy,” and also afraid that too much attention on the non-crazies will lead to shrieks of “liberal bias” and “political correctness.” Bidness as usual, IOW…)
Special Patrol Group
McGovern added, “Also, too: Michele Bachmann is a fucking idiot.”
Listening to Diane Rehm is like sticking a round rasp into your ears and twisting that fucker around. (Also, too: Ms. Rehm ain’t that smart.)
Amir Khalid
@Chris:
There was something I brought up last Eid al-Fitri: a local paper in Portland, Maine did its routine coverage of the holiday, and the usual bigots screamed bloody murder. The newspaper felt the need to apologize — to the bigots, for doing its job. There’s an element among Americans that just doesn’t want to hear anything that makes us Muslims look like ordinary decent people.
Linda Featheringill
@Chris:
There is a good deal of anti-Muslim bias in the media. Usually, a mere person such as myself has to search for other voices. I would imagine that most people won’t do that.
RoonieRoo
Ah, yes, I once again see why my father was a McGovern delegate to the convention.
Chad N Freude
The New Yorker recently had a lengthy profile of Bachmann. Quite long but worth the effort. For those whose attention span makes it tl;dr, just read this:
ETA: Link to the article = http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/08/15/110815fa_fact_lizza?currentPage=all
drkrick
When Jesus was on trial in front Pilate, Pilate asked him why his followers weren’t storming the palace to free him. Jesus responded that his army was of God and that they don’t do politics – in essence, my people don’t do that (this is a paraphrase from Garry Will’s excellent What Jesus Meant). People who are actually trying to follow what Jesus taught are not particularly interested in using the government to force people to act like they share their beliefs, nor or are they interested in the kind of showboating that’s so typical of the Talevangical set since there’s nothing in Jesus’ teaching to support that kind of thing.
Asking why there aren’t more moderate to liberal Christians with fire in their bellies getting out there and mixing it up with the Hagees and the Robertsons is like asking why the Miami Heat aren’t better at rushing the ball in the red zone – that’s not the game they’re playing.
Chad N Freude
@Amir Khalid: Muslims are The Other that threatens Western life as we know it. Anything that does not support this position must be excoriated.
Tone In DC
@Southern Beale:
Good one.
grandpajohn
@Chris:
If he is wearing his Christianity on his sleeve rather than in his heart, then he is not really a Christian. what many don’t seem to understand is that God realizes that the act of proclaiming to be a Christian does not actually make one a Christian.Matthew 7:21-23
New International Version (NIV)
True and False Disciples
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Chad N Freude
I prefer to refer to the Christians who want to impose Christian Sharia on the US as Dominionists, to distinguish them from people who actually pay attention to the teachings of Christianity.
Southern Beale
@pk:
LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL
Southern Beale
@kdaug:
Well it’s online right now, but I think you need to be a subscriber to access it regardless. They have a blog that’s open to non-subscribers but I’m pretty sure non-subscribers are blocked from reading content.
I could be wrong but I know whenever I try to read an old article online they make me sign in.
Chris
@Chad N Freude:
This.
It’s never enough for them to go after a real threat; they need to go associate it with hordes and hordes of innocent people and go after them as well. Like in the Cold War, when “anticommunism” wasn’t directed at the Reds so much as the unions, the civil rights movements, the Democrats, and all their enemies in-country, and Barry Goldwater was telling people that Walter Reuther was a bigger threat than “anything Soviet Russia might do to America.”
To be honest, I think part of the reason they go after innocent people so relentlessly is so that their opponents will be compelled to defend them… which in turn allows them to squeal “LOOK! LIBS’RE SIDING WITH THE ENEMY!”
Not that smashing people different from themselves isn’t its own justification, of course.
lou
True story: I heard George McGovern preach at a Methodist church I attended in college in 1980. I was slowing shifting away from my family’s conservative, fundamentalist Baptist thinking at the time and he helped convert me.
Here’s how bad he got smeared during that campaign. Did you know he was a hot-shot pilot during WWII that had four hits?
maya
Michele B is not crazy, she has merely slipped the bonds of earth to mime the lips of God.
Chad N Freude
@Chris: The mindset is:
Anything that threatens the continuation of the world as I experienced it as a child is a personal threat to me that must be met with every weapon at my disposal: Nasty letters to the editor, Nasty blog comments, Picketing with insulting placards, Personal insults hurled at members of the Threat group, Spray painting of anti-Threat slogans on Threat buildings, Physical assaults, Fire-bombing, Whatever I can do.
Argive
@drkrick:
My sister is a born-again Christian who belongs to a fairly large international church. They consider themselves non-sectarian and are totally apolitical, believing very strongly in the separation of church and state. This is partially an issue of practicality, as their congregation is split 50/50 between conservatives and liberals (my sister is extremely liberal) but also because they don’t think that the affairs of God and the affairs of man should be mixed. Nor do they proselytize. In fact, if you want to join the church you have to get a sponsor and take classes for a year. They want to recreate the church as they believe Jesus intended it. So that means no bigotry against Muslims, no picketing abortion clinics, no marches on Washington, and no blaming the weather on whatever mood God happens to be in today.
Svensker
@Baud:
Barack Obama is a liberal Christian.
Chris
@Svensker:
And yet he’s rarely thought of as one… probably because he doesn’t make a mountain out of it.
It’s that simple: people who wear their Christianity on their sleeve and loudly proclaim it to everyone who’ll listen (and even those who won’t), IOW, conservatives, get all the attention and a de facto patent on the religion. People who don’t, well, we don’t think of them as “Christians,” just as regular people.
demz taters
@pk: Something like this.
Chad N Freude
@demz taters: Wow! Brilliant! Thank you!
demz taters
@ericblair: There was a joke we used to tell back when I went to church that went like this: A guy is on the roof of his house, praying to God for help as the flood waters rise. First one boat comes and the man refuses it. “God’s going to save me,” he says. Another boat comes – same thing. Then a helicopter, which the man also refuses. He finally drowns and when he gets to heaven, he asks God, “Why didn’t you save me?” “Don’t blame me,” God replies. “I sent you two boats and a helicopter.”
bjork55
Funny you should mention McGovern. I think about him all the time in light of recent events. As some of you may know, the left-wing hijacked the Democratic Party in the early 70’s and I can never help thinking that, ever since, the Democratic power structure has been working overtime to avoid allowing the dirty, fuckin’ hippies to ever pull that off again. Hence, and ever since, we have been witnessing 30 years of Democratic caving, incoherence, spinelessness, etc. and, of course, endless examples of dumping on their base. Does this have a ring of truth? By the way, George McGovern would never b.s.; definitely not his style.
Gravie
I’m proud to say I voted for George in 1972. It’s hard to think of what might have been if Nixon’s dirty tricks squad hadn’t been so very gifted, and if most of the country hadn’t voted its very worst instincts.
bob h
What do the Texas fires portend to Bachmann?
Bill Murray
@bjork55: The left wing did not hijack the Democratic Party. After the 1968 convention debacle, McGovern chaired the committee that decided how to change things so that more than just the party elite could participate. This lead to McGovern’s getting the nomination and the party elite not backing McGovern at all, which was a major, although hardly the only, reason McGovern went down so hard.
This did however restrengthen the party elite when they claimed it was all the left wing’s fault.
AlphaLiberal
Thanks for posting that. It was a nice bit of history. And Senator McGovern stood up for his beliefs in the process, something so many Democrats seem not able to do.*
* – Granted, they may actually believe some of that mealy mouth bullshit.
JackHughes
This anecdote is just another reason I’m still proud of the label “McGovernik.”
The 1972 presidential election was a choice between good and evil. America chose Nixon.
TenguPhule
Satan prepping an early and warm welcome for the GOP Convention.
steve
little known fact: there’s actually no person who is Dianne Rehm. It’s the diahnnerehmme show. ‘diahnnerehmme’ is a german word that means ‘prolonged strangling of a drugged cat’. That’s how those noises get made.
Kris
McGovern — not a politician you like — a politician you love!
And ya’ll who just can’t help but share your wit about Diane Rehm’s voice — making fun of disabilities says a lot more about the speaker than the disabled. Blo me.