I haven’t been writing about this because I’m not up-to-date on the story at all. Sorry.
Reader Interactions
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Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
Peak wingnut was a lie.
When do the post office & the dmv weigh in on the wuhan virus?
Republicans do not pay their debts.
Republicans are radicals, not conservatives.
After roe, women are no longer free.
Bark louder, little dog.
Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
Thanks to your bullshit, we are now under siege.
Their freedom requires your slavery.
Just because you believe it, that doesn’t make it true.
Imperialist aggressors must be defeated, or the whole world loses.
I did not have this on my fuck 2022 bingo card.
Republican obstruction dressed up as bipartisanship. Again.
It’s easy to sit in safety and prescribe what other people should be doing.
Despite his magical powers, I don’t think Trump is thinking this through, to be honest.
I see no possible difficulties whatsoever with this fool-proof plan.
Fuck the extremist election deniers. What’s money for if not for keeping them out of office?
It may be funny to you motherfucker, but it’s not funny to me.
Insiders who complain to politico: please report to the white house office of shut the fuck up.
Let me eat cake. The rest of you could stand to lose some weight, frankly.
They’re not red states to be hated; they are voter suppression states to be fixed.
But frankly mr. cole, I’ll be happier when you get back to telling us to go fuck ourselves.
Come on, media. you have one job. start doing it.
This fight is for everything.
burnspbesq
Fucking ridiculous.
I should be able to be more articulate than that, but I’m just too angry right now.
KoolEarl
God Bless America (cough)
Mayken
Gods I feel ill!
Ron
It’s so awful. It’s such a fucked up system that allows us the ability to commit state-sanctioned murder.
Odie Hugh Manatee
When the state puts a person to death for committing the crime of murder, they are (arguably) doing the right thing (if state law calls for it). When that same state puts an innocent person to death then they are worse than any murderer out there because they are committing an injustice in the name of justice.
IMO, Georgia just committed murder and it was done in the name of and consent of her citizens.
Montysano
It’s beyond belief that the Georgia parole and pardons board didn’t stop this. According to Jeremy Scahill on the Ed Show, within the last few months suspect “Redd” Coles was still threatening potential witnesses, and Georgia authorities simply shrugged. It’s shameful.
Jebediah
I really thought we were going to prevail here. I don’t know why I was so sure, but I was. I am sort of stunned right now.
If probable actual innocence isn’t a good enough reason to rethink executing someone, we have little business calling ourselves a civilized nation.
wag
Fuck Georgia and the horse they rode in on.
Fuck Clarence Thomas, too, for good measure.
MariedeGournay
At this point, I’m just waiting for Nemesis to destroy us all.
Gretchen D
It’s a moral disaster – the NYT called a “Grievous Wrong” http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/21/opinion/a-grievous-wrong-on-georgias-death-row.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
MAJeff
@burnspbesq:
Anger is where I’m at, too. I see lots of people in mourning and grief, but I didn’t have that kind of connection to the case. I’m just angry.
What’s surprising to me, though, is how angry I am. I teach classes on race and inequality, and the criminal “justice” system is something I deal with on a regular basis. I know it’s a fucking joke, and that what happened tonight is exactly what the system is set up to do, kill people. But, still, I’m just enraged that the system operated as it always does.
The United States, and Georgia in particular, is a savage, uncivilized place.
Montysano
As a nation, we truly are swirling the drain.
General Stuck
I just don’t have the words for this injustice. Can’t help but try to put myself in the shoos of Troy Davis, and the others that were innocent and killed by the state. And imagining their final thoughts and feelings, about to be killed for something they didn’t do, under the banner of law and order. jeebus, fucked up country.
Blahblah
I am so upset I shit myself.
burnspbesq
I get that process is important, and finality is important. But killing the innocent is too high a price to pay.
sistermoon
Of course, freelance psychopath Ann Coulter had to add her two cents <a href="http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2011-09-21.html“>
Someone from the Twitterverse had the perfect reply:
sfinny
I was driving home when at 7pm, listening to the radio, news came that he hadn’t been executed yet and cheers were heard throughout the crowd. Must admit that tears came to my eyes.
After getting home, saw online that week long stay from Supreme Court was issued. Later read that he had been executed. My god what a fkd up system.
David Fud
If there is any bright side to this, it is that Georgia will likely get a lot of negative attention. No one likes to be called out as barbaric – with loads of evidence to boot. They made a martyr today. Maybe the execution will wake up some folks who really should know better but hadn’t bothered to speak up.
Or, maybe it is business as usual. As a sad and fairly new resident of Georgia, all I can say is that I wish Southerners were better able to walk a mile in someone else’s shoes. Lots of victimhood around here, it seems, even when their lives and livelihoods are just fine.
aisce
so for those who have been closely following the case:
1. bunch of thugs are beating up some homeless dude in a parking lot
2. off-duty cop intervenes
3. cop gets killed
4. troy davis admits to being in the parking lot with group, but says he left scene before murder
5. ballistics matches crime to other shooting where davis was also charged, actual gun is never found
6. also at scene is this guy redd coles, who testifies against davis but is now alleged to be the killer himself instead
do i have that right? was davis involved with the people who were beating on the homeless guy or not? did he ever admit to that connection? how was he initially singled out for the crime then? and did anybody else in that parking lot ever come forward with new information, or have the original witnesses only recanted their testimonies?
burnspbesq
From the AJC live-blog:
TooManyJens
@sistermoon: That truly is the perfect reply.
The cops were out in force — last I heard was about 350 officers — because somebody was afraid there would be a riot if Davis was executed. I hope that the strength and grace and peacefulness of the crowd gave them something to think about. I’m not optimistic, but you’ve got to at least hope.
Zagloba
That ‘orrible cunt?
/America is getting fed to the pigs.
BethanyAnne
I would not have the state kill anyone. It’s not about them, and it’s not out of compassion. It’s because killing lowers us. It forecloses on the possibility of redemption, adds more violence to the system, and taints our humanity. There is risk of more depravity if we do not kill our monsters, but there is a certainty of more if we do.
scav
Fuck Georgia indeed and all those that supported this. And to all those bleating and wetting themselves in fear over the scary scary Sharia law? Go look at the list of countries that still allow death as a punishment and consider your spiritual soulmates. Those scary Chinese with their scarey scarey army are there too.
Innocent until proven convenient seems to be the new deal. I mean, isn’t it far far more important that the principle of the state being able to execute people be upheld rather than getting tied up in knots over trivialities about guilt or innocence and that dubious elitist thing involving reliable evidence? Just more collateral damage while upholding ‘mercan exceptionalism and rough-n-ready git-it-done toughness.
Steve
I don’t particularly want to be “that guy,” but nothing I saw about this case convinced me that Davis was “almost certainly innocent,” or even that there was a reasonable doubt. I don’t love the death penalty, but I believe the courts got this one right.
Consider this: given a second chance at a hearing to prove his innocence, Davis’ lawyers didn’t even attempt to subpoena the supposed “real killer” to testify. I know a thing or two about trial strategy and there’s no good explanation for that. And folks, if you want to make a rule that any time eyewitnesses change their testimony it counts as reasonable doubt then you really need to think through the implications of such a rule, not to mention the reason why the law has consciously rejected that notion for centuries.
This whole episode reminds me of Terri Schiavo, to be honest. People can’t tell the difference between personal doubt that exists in their own mind and actual doubt. It’s not enough for the justice system to establish a lack of reasonable doubt in one proceeding after another; everything must be put on hold until they are personally convinced. And without diminishing the considered opinions of the people who took the time to study the trial record and came to a different conclusion from me, 99% of the people who are complaining that an innocent man just got executed have no earthly clue. They simply read a blog post or two from someone they respect and decided to fall in line.
I realize these opinions are provocative to some, but since I don’t want to be more provocative than necessary I won’t be having a back and forth over this. Like I said, I have a lot of respect for the folks who took the time to study the evidence and draw their own conclusions, whether they agree with me or not; I just wish there were more of those people.
Fulcanelli
Seven out of nine eyewitnesses recanted and they still put this man to death?
This travesty just might be the tipping point for this country. I just don’t see the fallout from this horrific injustice dying out after a few news cycles and it’s not going to be pretty.
May Troy Davis Rest In Peace, because we damn sure aren’t going to have much in this country anymore.
Satanicpanic
Sometimes this nation is fucking ghoulish
B W Smith
As a Georgian, I feel the strong need to apologize for those in my state who cannot or will not stand up for what’s right. I wrote letters to the Pardons and Parole Board and the Governor. I signed the Amnesty petitions. In my heart I knew if this decision was left to that board, there was almost no possibility of clemency. I am sad beyond measure. I can only hope that this will lead to change in my state and across this country. I hope the McPhail family will someday know justice because they did not get it with Troy’s death. The idea of closure for a death is a myth.
Linnaeus
It’s not even like concerns over executing innocent people is some new-fangled cause of DFHs. The state where I grew up (Michigan) abolished the death penalty in 1846. Why? Because a Michigan resident was wrongly executed in neighboring Ontario.
Michigan has never brought back the death penalty either. The state didn’t implode.
burnspbesq
@Steve:
With all due respect, if that’s where you netted out, you weren’t trying very hard.
Imagine a retrial with the testimony of the witnesses who recanted excluded. Are you actually saying that the remaining evidence was sufficient to prove Davis’ guilt beyond a reasonable doubt?
moe99
I’m opposed to the death penalty period. It doesn’t make it right to kill someone as the penalty for killing someone else. That extends to the white supremacist who was executed in TX today for his role in the horrific dragging/killing of a black man. I would prefer that he remain in prison the rest of his natural life. Far cheaper for the state and a far greater punishment.
jron
CorrectHealth is the for-profit medical corporation that oversees all executions in Georgia. Hippocratic oaths are so outdated I suppose, but maybe that’s just when it comes to the incarcerated.
There’s money to be made in everything in this country.
http://www.correcthealth.org
J. Michael Neal
@aisce: I believe you need to add in their that the ballistics match to the other crime was later found to have been botched and that there was no connection.
SiubhanDuinne
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Not this Georgia citizen.
The Dangerman
I’m not all that familiar with the details of the Davis case. This lack of familiarity is rather intentional given I strongly suspected how this day was going to end and, well, I have enough nightmares right now.
It seems to me that the US should have the equivalent of a Hyde Amendment for the Death Penalty; I don’t want my tax payer dollars funding them any more than the Hyde types want to pay for abortions…
…that’s not to say I’m anti-death penalty; far from it. Look up Rex Krebs (his guilt is a no doubter); I’d flip the switch on him myself. But, no taxpayer dollars (and, no, I have no idea how they would be funded, but fair is fair; I don’t want my tax dollars going towards a potential travesty of justice).
superluminar
@aisce: seriously? I fucking hope you’re not a lawyer. What kind of asswipe writes that? Even you never stoop that low, usually.
Alison
@Steve: Your opinions are not provocative. They’re repugnant, ignorant, and entirely unneeded in this thread.
If you don’t want to be “that guy” then don’t be. You honestly don’t think 7 out of 9 witnesses recanting is “reasonable doubt”? You don’t think another person having reportedly bragged about committing the murder is “reasonable doubt”? What in the fucking hell does your fucking ass require for “reasonable doubt”? Do you even have a working understanding of the word “reasonable”?
Ugh, I cannot take this shit right now.
Fulcanelli
@Steve: I’m no trial lawyer or legal scholar, but dude, I hope Law isn’t your day gig.
You’ve got to be fucking kidding.
eemom
here’s the deal, you “maybe he WASN’T innocent” folks.
Maybe he wasn’t. But there is no justification for killing a person if there is any kind of doubt at all.
I’ve never been opposed to the death penalty per se. I never would oppose it in the case of a heinous criminal where there literally is no reasonable doubt. Indeed there are cases — sexual predators who murder children, for example — where I would willingly push the lever myself.
But when it comes to death, “maybe” isn’t good enough. Neither is meaningless tripe about how he “had every chance in the world,” or he “had twenty years,” to prove his innocence. It just doesn’t work that way if you’re not OJ Simpson — and anyone who says otherwise is either grossly ignorant of the realities of the criminal “justice” system or just a liar.
There is NO justification, and NO excuse, for putting a man to death where there is doubt of his guilt. NONE.
Comrade Kevin
@Satanicpanic:
QFT
Loneoak
@Steve:
The eyewitness evidence was tainted from the beginning—the police did everything contrary to best practices, such as showing the witnesses his picture alone and first, and then setting it against a different colored background on the photo lineup. There was no decisive physical evidence, not even close actually. One of the witnesses was moved to nicer neighborhood and paid. Other witnesses said they were threatened by the cops and then were let off of unrelated charges in exchange for testimony. In other words, it wasn’t just recanting, it was an accumulation of reasons to doubt the core of the case that the police built and the prosecution presented.
So what exactly would it take for you to not have a substantive doubt about the witness testimony as a whole? Not sure why the behavior of the defense lawyers has anything to do with this weight of doubt.
Linnaeus
@eemom:
Bingo. I will respectfully part ways with you on one issue: I don’t agree with the death penalty at all. Having said that, you nailed it. There is no acceptable margin for error in executing a prisoner.
Villago Delenda Est
@sistermoon:
Ann Coulter’s greatest regret is she was born about 40 years too late to be the Bitch of Buchenwald.
Troy Davis is put to death for a crime for which there is more than reasonable doubt he’s guilty of, yet Dick Cheney is still at large for crimes he boasts of.
scav
More than that, Steve brought up the actions (or inactions) of Davis’ lawyers as seemingly being evidence of guilt or innocence. Yup, bad laywering is reason enough to get you killed and rightly so to his mind. Oh, and the reliability of witnesses over time, don’t worry about that, so long as they said it once that’ll do you. Don’t want to make things complicated and messy. Doesn’t mean to be provocative? Methinks he doth protest too much.
Martin
I love how the GOP thinks the government is too incompetent to teach your kids, but unquestionably competent enough to execute them.
The Dangerman
@Steve:
I’ll step halfway towards being “that guy”, too. Don’t want you to be lonely out on that island (I’m only wading towards you, though; not on land).
I have no idea if Davis was innocent; hell, based on the voluminous proceedings over the past 20 years (yes, I’ve heard the Cliff Notes thing about the recantations, but that is one sentence in proceedings that fill many boxes) he’s probably guilty…
…before y’all flame me too much, I qualified it with a “probably”. “Probably” isn’t enough for me to put a person to death.
ChrisNYC
It would be good if every execution got this much coverage. Texas had ten this year. There are four more, in various states, scheduled for the nine remaining days in September. And then four in October and three in November. I mean, cover all of those like this one and people will say, “This is just too much killing.”
eemom
@Linnaeus:
understood, and I don’t actually have a problem with no death penalty at all — as long as life in prison without parole means what it says.
Triassic Sands
Well, according to the victim’s wife, if we didn’t execute Troy Davis we would face “chaos.”
I guess the only thing that stands between us and the planet spinning out of control is our ability and willingness to kill people.
I still don’t understand why I’ve read nothing about an appeal to President Obama to commute Davis’ sentence. To me, that seemed like the obvious and appropriate remedy in this case.
aisce
@ superluminar
no, i’m not a lawyer. that’s why i’m asking other people about the details of the case. notice all the question marks?
i’m just trying to figure out how davis was ever implicated in the first place.
it seems to be that alcohol was heavily involved in both the assault on the homeless guy and the (unrelated?) shooting at the party that night, and thus witness testimony is basically bunk. and it looks to me like a cop was killed, the police went on the warpath, and they brought in the first black guy they could find and leaned hard on “witnesses” to make it stick.
is that the most plausible explanation?
Brian
@Martin:
What he said.
Brian
@Triassic Sands: The President has no power to commute a sentence handed down in State Court.
Zagloba
State crime. SCOTUS has appellate jurisdiction, but POTUS can’t pardon.
Villago Delenda Est
@Villago Delenda Est:
Er..NOT guilty of. One word makes all the difference.
Elizabelle
Ironic that Troy Davis died the same night Texas executed one of the brutes who dragged James Byrd to death.
I do wonder if the Davis case will be a turning point, because there was so much room for doubt. Troy Davis is a martyr, and Georgia disgraced itself.
I’d have been fine with Brewer (in Texas) getting life without parole.
[The crimes are so different. Officer MacPhail’s murder was a heat of the moment. Byrd’s dragging death was long in process, with several places the three could have stopped. No question of culpability there. They went out for barbecue after the murder.]
Maybe tonight was the Stonewall Riots for the death penalty.
Linnaeus
@The Dangerman:
Right. It’s not. We’re not made any safer by executing him than if we keep him in jail. If he’s innocent, he can’t get back the years he spent in jail, but he can at least have his freedom restored.
jonas
@Steve: If this were all about whether or not some dude stole a car and was facing 3-5 for grand theft or something, then perhaps you would have a point. But we are (were) talking about executing a guy. There’s no taksies-backsies on this one if you’re wrong. “We’re sorta pretty sure he did it” shouldn’t be the standard in capital cases — if we’re going to have capital cases at all. That could mean that some really, really guilty murderers who would otherwise get death are going to get life or something less instead, but the ultimate sanction should be reserved for those rare cases when witnesses, evidence, everything points to guilt well beyond a reasonable doubt.
And though it’s been overshadowed by the controversial Davis execution, tonight Texas executed one of the two men sentenced to death for the dragging death of James Byrd in 1998. Lawrence Brewer, an avowed white supremacist, claimed he was “innocent” but also had “no regrets” about being involved in Byrd’s gruesome lynching.
TuiMel
@Steve:
I am not intimately familiar with the particulars of this case, but from what I have read I do believe there was more than enough doubt to spare the life of this man – which is very different from declaring him exonerated or releasing him. May you never find yourself in such a position where the courts / systems involved get it “right” in same manner as those handling the Davis case.
J. Michael Neal
@Triassic Sands:
Because the Presidential pardon power only extends to federal cases. Davis was tried and sentenced by state courts. Obama had no legal authority for stepping in.
superluminar
@Linnaeus: Yes, this. I’m osrt of close to eemom’s position in that there are some people I really wouldn’t shed teras over, but still…
I actuallty have an intersting thought experiment which was FYWP eaten on an earlier thread – what if a condition of capital punishment were that it were applicable to people involved in the original death-sentence decision? So basically, if the cops and/or prosecution had provably misled the court in order to secure a conviction, they would potentially also be defendants in a Capital case? I think it would be an interesting test of the “deterrent” argument…
suzanne
A part of me (my pinky toe, maybe) dies every time we go through this shit.
I still am not over how it’s always the “small government” advocates who get the most excited about an execution. The fact that there’s no government bigger than the one that can kill you with impunity is totally lost on them.
And these people who are utterly convinced that government can do no right always seem so convinced that the legal system could never get it wrong. Oi.
GregB
The conservatives faith in government is never so strong as when government is killing citizens.
Suddenly all of their concerns about waste, fraud, abuse and incompetence melt away.
Pity this nation.
Elizabelle
@Martin:
There’s a bumpersticker in there.
Jenny
Kill, Baby, Kill!
jron
@SiubhanDuinne: nor this one.
eemom
@scav:
indeed, “ineffective assistance of counsel” is, AFAIK, one of the most common grounds of appeal in death penalty cases, and no surprise, considering that most of these defendants are dirt poor people completely at the mercy of court-appointed defenders.
Again, compare with OJ Simpson. And again, go read the New Yorker article about the Willingham case.
Money buys, um, “justice”. When you don’t have it, you get the result we saw today.
Comrade Dread
Conservative voice: Come on, we all know that the government is completely ineffectual and fucked up unless it involves killing brown people, then it’s fucking awesome!
+5
jron
@Triassic Sands: doesn’t matter who pays, as long as somebody pays. I hope I never understand that.
Jebediah
@eemom:
That is absolutely the bottom line. And given how often police and prosecution fuck around with witnesses and evidence, I don’t know how often we could ever achieve absolute certainty.
The Raven
“The world is a ghetto.”
No other croaking. This is just too bitter.
John
Camus.
The Dangerman
@Linnaeus:
True; indeed, the amount of money spent on proceedings over the past 20 years could probably have fed and sheltered him for several lifetimes. Bottom line, we are actually worse off by going through this exercise (yes, one could make the same argument for all capital punishment, but I’m still in favor of it for the no doubters).
Linnaeus
Regarding the question as to why “small government” conservatives seem to have so much confidence in the state’s application of the death penalty, I have two thoughts, one more simple, one more complex:
1. The more “complex” reason is that they separate, in some fashion, the criminal justice system from “the government” even though the former is part of the apparatus of the latter. People who are convicted are tried by juries consisting of fine folks just like themselves. There’s an appeals process, which to these folks gives convicted criminals more chances to reverse what the system did to said criminals than what salt-of-the-earth types get when some “bureaucrat” does something they don’t like.
2. The simpler reason is that they simply like retribution, and consider the possibility that an innocent person will be executed as an acceptable price to pay in order to impose maximum punishment on the bad guys.
David Koch
I love the smell of executions in the morning.
That smell. That rotten corpse smell. Smells like victory!
Perry 2012.
rob in dc
This fucking disaster of a country is on the brink of calamity and we deserve it 100%. We watch innocent people murdered by the state and young black men thrown have their lives ruined by the bullshit war on drugs while ratfuck bankers who have robbed the entire globe skate by with fines or no charges at all. Truly we have entered a moral event horizon in the last decade, one not seen since the civil war. Dennis G. calls it right, we live with a confederate party in our midst while the people we are counting on to represent us and do the right thing fiddle and watch the country burn.
I’m so tired of this bullshit, I haven’t felt like this since the wikileak in December when I learned about our spectacular armed forces efforts to quash kiddy prostitution investigations by Afghani police forces so our puppet government could retain legitimacy. We have become the evil empire of every fiction novel, life imitates art and I grow more and more certain that this country is doomed, maybe not in 10 years but definitely in 100.
contessakitty (AKA Karen)
Troy Davis was executed because it was more important for the police to not be proven wrong than to admit they fucked up. Period. And this may be the most blatant example but it’s happened before and it will happen again until all lives are equal instead of some lives being disposable.
I’m numb with grief but perhaps because I expected it, I’m not as devastated.
Triassic Sands
Of course.
rob in dc
I’ll be playing Bob Dylan’s Hurricane all night and contemplating GTFO once again, anyone who has children should be doing the same.
Yutsano
I have no words. The nation just died a little more tonight.
@David Koch: I feel sorry for you, that you think the death of a human is cause for your personal amusement. Allah just tipped your scale.
David Koch
Don’t get so upset, he was only a black guy, it wasn’t like they executed a job creator.
The Dangerman
Ya know, throwing a pie (filter) at a “David Koch” felt kinda good. True, waste of a good pie for a weak ass troll, but satisfying nonetheless.
SiubhanDuinne
@Linnaeus:
I daresay most of them would
jump through hoopslie through their teeth to avoid jury duty.wasabi gasp
@suzanne:
Try resuscitation while it’s still in your mouth.
Mnemosyne
@contessakitty (AKA Karen):
Not just the police, but also the prosecutors. In fact, it’s probably even more about protecting the prosecutors. The only reason Mike Nifong went down was because he went after rich white kids — if he had done the same thing to poor kids who couldn’t afford expensive lawyers and lawsuits against the prosecutor’s office, they’d be in jail doing 20 to life by now.
(Edited for less sarcasm)
contessakitty (AKA Karen)
@David Koch:
I know you’re trying to make a point but we all know it so just do the world a favor and stop rubbing the salt in it. If you’re a Kochian then you can gloat to yourself. Only a loser has something to prove and you my friend are nothing but a loser. If you’re just a snarker then you have truly poor taste and have nothing to offer the world but your. fucking. SILENCE.
Linnaeus
@SiubhanDuinne:
Oh, probably. I’m talking about how they mentally construct a jury.
Fulcanelli
@Elizabelle: Martin’s comment just went on my FB wall. FTW.
djork
@Triassic Sands: Davis was convicted of state crimes. Obama does not have the power to commute or stop state sentences, only those for federal crimes.
Comrade Kevin
@David Koch: Whoever this is, and thinks it’s in any way funny or insightful, just stop.
MattR
@djork: Are there any federal laws that could be used to override a state execution, even temporarily? Something like declaring the condemned to be a material witness or defendant in a terrorism case and demanding the execution be stayed for national security reasons (but don’t ask us for evidence of this because it would violate state secrets and that would damage national security too). Not suggesting Obama should have done that. Just curious if anyone knows if there are any weird loopholes like that out there for certain circumstances that a Bush-Rovian leader could exploit.
Ruckus
I’d say I’m stunned… But I’m not. I was hoping beyond hope that sanity would prevail but certainly not expecting it. I did not expect GA or the USSC to do the right thing which was Mr. Davis’s only chance.
As a citizen of this country I apologize to Mr. Davis and his family.
I think that I may have lost the ability to see the bright side. Of anything.
@sistermoon:
The best comment I think I’ve ever heard.
TenguPhule
Proof there is no God.
Davis Dies while Bush and Cheney live and reproduce.
hitchhiker
They didn’t even let him have a day in court to present those recanted testimony affadavits. He was denied the chance to have his case re-tried because there wasn’t an evidentiary hearing.
That’s for those who say that he had plenty of chances to make his case. He didn’t have the chance that mattered, which would have been to put that stuff in open court.
dww44
If you’ve not heard the interview on the Ed Show (on MSNBC) which ran on into the 11 p.m. hour with the retired warden, Allen Ault, of the selfsame state prison in Jackson where Davis was executed, you really do need to give a listen. The grief and regret in his voice was palpable and when asked by Ed or Rachel if he thought Davis was innocent, he said that he had no idea if he were innocent, but that he doesn’t believe executing acts as any sort of deterrent, that in most instances it doesn’t provide closure to victim’s families, and that the toll on those who actually administer these executions is enormous. Ault had signed on to another petition/letter to the Georgia Board of Pardons and Paroles requesting stay and/or clemency today. (you can google his name and get a copy of the letter he and 6 other retired corrections officials signed off on)
While the video (or in this case the audio) hasn’t been posted at MSNBC yet, there is a revealing discussion at Democratic Underground.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439×1982395#1982436
AA+ Bonds
AA+ Bonds
AA+ Bonds
Comrade Kevin
@TenguPhule: I have posted this before, but, as Mark Twain said: “If there is a God, he is a malign thug”
Ruckus
Once again I see no need for the death penalty.
It is barbaric.
Even those who may deserve it, don’t deserve it.
We have to get beyond the need for revenge. It belittles us as a people.
We should be able to do better.
I’m not holding my breath.
AA+ Bonds
@Ruckus:
It is barbaric, and we can do better.
We must do better. The stability of our country depends on it.
Comrade Kevin
This will offend some, but… Did the family of the slain officer enjoy it when they saw Troy Davis die?
AA+ Bonds
@Comrade Kevin:
Did you?
Ruckus
@TenguPhule:
The very thought that those two assholes have offspring…
I may be against the death penalty and no I’m not going to have a change of heart for these two asswipes. I would however not be against using the methods of torture that they authorized on them though. And I’m sure I could add a few that would not kill them but would make them suffer quite a bit more.
ETA I think I could live with myself being a little barbaric in this case.
Comrade Kevin
@AA+ Bonds: Me? I
1) Did not see it
2) am opposed to executing people under any circumstances
ETA: Changed “in all” to “under any”
AA+ Bonds
@Comrade Kevin:
You’ve passed it, the civilization test
CarolDuhart
I’ve evolved over the years. I used to be an unconditional supporter of the death penalty-my formative years included the Cincinnati Strangler,Charles Manson and the Chicago Strangler. I think a significant number of post 50 Americans remember those days when a heinous killer could get out it seems after just a few years. But back then there was no life without parole for hardened killers, and previous cases like Leopold and Loeb, where Loeb finally did get out, confirmed that perhaps there was a reason for the death penalty-at least death was a certainty.
But over the years I slowly evolved. I credit the Innocence Project, several other cases where the evidence was insufficient, and a growing LWOP movement. Why execute someone when simply keeping them in jail is sufficoent for public safety? LWOP seems to me to be a no-brainer: If guilty, the person simply stays in jail. If evidence shows up decades later that there are mistakes, we can release the person, adjust the sentence, or otherwise correct the mistakes made.
I’m saddened by what happened tonight. Even as a Clintoneque approach to the death penalty person “Safe,legal, and extremely rare”, this was one case where the option of commutation to at least LWOP should have been available. If there is any doubt at all, life should be the answer-and there should always be baked into the system a chance for a calm judicial review as well. It shouldn’t be left up to protesters to demand a second look and second chance.
LoudounLib
@Ruckus: Thank you, very well stated. I can’t seem to put words to my feelings tonight; I’m not very good at articulating grief and outrage.
dww44
@Comrade Kevin: At the live interview after the execution with the offical witnesses from local media, the spokesperson (with WSB Radio in ATlanta) said that the two McPhail men just stared at Davis the whole time and after he was pronounced dead, Martin McPhail, the brother, got up and hugged another family member and gave a slight smile. So, I don’t know if that counts as closure, but I give far more credence to Allen Ault who said on MSNBC that most victim’s families don’t get closure from these executions.
If any of you are so inclined, perhaps go over to CNN.com, (the Fox wanna be network)and vote in their poll about outlawing the death penalty. The yeas are being far outpaced by the nays. (63 to 37% when I voted)
AA+ Bonds
At its worst, the death penalty murders innocent people. At its best, it is the most inefficient and expensive system for life imprisonment in the history of the entire world, bar none.
contessakitty (AKA Karen)
Troy Davis became a “Category One” and no one blinked.
Comrade Kevin
From Wikipedia: Use of so-called Capital Punishment by Country
Some goddamn fine company we find ourselves in. The United States of America is not a civilized country.
AA+ Bonds
@dww44:
The pleasure of the injured may be, as Nietzsche said, the foundation of justice. Nevertheless, it is irrelevant in properly functioning democratic societies, which Nietzsche accordingly despised.
Amir Khalid
The tragedy in Troy Davis’ wrongful execution, it seems to me, is that here justice was made secondary to legal process, when it is legal process that serves the cause of justice and should always be subservient to it.
Ruckus
@AA+ Bonds:
The stability of our country depends on it.
I’d agree with this except that I expect very little to come of this. My faith in my fellow man is pretty low right now. Look on this post and tell me how many are not against the use of the death penalty. Even those who feel this case was an abomination, many of them are not against, they just want it to be fairer. But it can not be fair.
I say it is cruel and unusual punishment. It is not used by every state, it is vastly unfair to those not rich enough. That by the way is most of us, probably better than 90%. Think about it, how many of you could afford to properly defend yourselves if wrongly accused? Or even rightly accused? If you are accused and live in a state that still kills people could you survive?
AA+ Bonds
The execution of a guilty man by the government doesn’t demonstrate justice, it demonstrates pure dumb luck, on a table that gambles with people’s lives like poker chips.
AA+ Bonds
MODDED FOR AN ANALOGY WITH GAMES OF CHANCE
Comrade Luke
@Ruckus:
I lump this into war: it’s out of sight, out of mind for most people. It’s something that happens to “those people” (or in case of war, “those people” are the ones who fight). And of course, in both cases, the biggest proponents are the biggest cowards.
Blahblah
Oh Jesus Christ, the stability of our country does not depend on one asshole getting killed by the state.
This blog is just stuffed full of pollyannas.
I’m glad a convicted murderer is dead.
Comrade Kevin
@Blahblah: You deserve to be beaten over the head with a plank.
Seriously, go fuck yourself.
Elizabelle
@Amir Khalid:
Well said. With Georgia, it seemed the execution train went down the track, and there was no one to stop it.
By design.
Martin
@Blahblah:
Let’s find out. What’s your address?
scav
@Blahblah: Well, given that a pollyanna is “an excessively cheerful or optimistic person” your fundamental ignorance is pretty brazen and that should put paid to anyone sane actually taking your opinion seriously. Cuddle your inner psychopath and sleep tight.
Xenos
Human sacrifice. That is all it is.
The gods are hungry, there has been a crime that must be punished in such a way that removes the stain of sin from the land.
Lo, kill the offender and the rains will return, the corn will grow, and the gods will smile upon this nation and prosperity will return to us.
Fucking savages.
Ruckus
@Comrade Luke:
True.
How do we get past this?
I have no clue.
People have fought for the end of the death penalty for decades, including this case and… Progress has been made, how many states no longer have the death penalty?
Progress is agonizingly slow and halting in the human race. Even for those processes that make us less human and more animal than we should/need to be. It takes generations while many suffer greatly. Race, poverty, crime/incarceration, death penalty, war, drugs/addiction, I’m sure there are more issues we need to work on but think what this country would be like if we made just 25% of the progress we need to on these.
CarolDuhart
@Comrade Kevin: Comrade Kevin, I concur with you opinion about Blahblah. I mean, even if we have to have such a penalty, why such callousness? There were real doubts here, and even if there aren’t in some cases, this is really a situation where sobriety and even solemnity is required. A life is being taken after all, and that after at least one other life was taken Nothing to celebrate here in that. And the accused had/has a family who also mourns the kid they lost as well. They had nothing (usually) to do with the act, but they suffer grief too.
Indeed, one of the things I have noticed about the pro-death penalty proponents is how they shrug off even dignity here. Why celebrate?
Ruckus
@CarolDuhart:
Why celebrate?
Callous assholes? Humanity of a horse fly? Victimization? Shitty upbringing?
All of the above?
Xenos
@Blahblah: And you do not know what a pollyanna is, either. In this context, you are the pollyanna, blithely and smugly assured that justice is being served and that everything is just A-OK.
bago
Updated for 2011:
wasabi gasp
@Comrade Kevin:
First a sandwich.
Parmenides
They got their human sacrifice. I hope they enjoyed eating his heart for the the life giving sustenance that the gods will rain down on the crops.
Oh that’s not the reason. And they don’t eat the heart.
Why the fuck are we killing people then.
Jebediah
@Blahblah:
Convicted doesn’t always mean guilty – oh why bother? You’re just a shitstain.
Fuck off.
Samara Morgan
you can bury your heart at wounded knee, or bury your uterus at waco….and it wont make a damn bit of difference…..until the demographic timer goes off.
better 99 guilty men go free than one innocent man should suffer….unless that one man is a black man.
:)
CarolDuhart
@Ruckus: Probably.
Before anyone brings it up, the situation with Osama is quite a bit different. This was a situation where the judicial system probably can’t work as an alternative. But those situations exist in places where there’s no law and no other way for accountability. Someone who’s already in jail is already in a situation where they can be held accountable, and there’s no rush.
That’s the one thing that gets me about these cases: why the rush to execute when doubts are raised now? Why not have that second or even third look, and make sure? The defendant isn’t going anywhere, and the victim is no less dead 5 years from now than this week. That’s another reason for real doubts about the death penalty on the part of some. LWOP eliminates that rush to execute and allows for a more sober examination of those doubts-an examination we owe both the accused and those who represent the victim.
bago
To paraphrase Matchbox 20:
I wish the real world, would just have CTRL+Z.
James E. Powell
@contessakitty (AKA Karen):
This. Compare with the state of Arkansas in the West Memphis 3 case. The people running that system, cops, prosecuting attorneys, judges, all knew that those three had nothing to do with the murders. Even those who did not participate in the witch hunt cum lynch mob could never bring themselves to say, publicly, that the state had made an error.
Amir Khalid
@Blahblah:
When a majority of witnesses for the prosecution have recanted their testimony, as in Troy Davis’ case, when there is clear evidence of the police screwing up the case and pressuring witnesses, what you have is an unsound conviction. In such a case, even after the appeals process has been exhausted, justice demands that you reopen matters.
To say that the legal process had been followed here, that its end result was his execution order, that the matter ends there is to prize process over justice. Process is there to serve justice, not to deny it.
Amir Khalid
@wasabi gasp:
For some reason, I thought of a crowbar between two pieces of bread.
Mack Lyons
@James E. Powell: As a cold comfort, the state may admit its error long after the people involved are safely distanced from any retributive action that could result from doing such. That will take decades, at least.
@Blahblah: You got your bloodlust satiated and a sense of moral justification out of Davis’ death. Beyond that, you couldn’t give a rat’s dick about any of this. It’s all about you, isn’t it?
Normally, I’d consider putting a loaded single-action in your mouth and pulling the trigger to be the ultimate bitch-move, but in your case, it’d be the most honorable thing you could do, for our sake.
Anya
For those of you who support capital punishment but want it to be fairer, it will never be fair because the economically disadvantaged will almost always get a lesser justice than the rest of us. If Troy Anthony Davis was a rich twenty year old, he would never have been convicted based on such flimsy evidence.
I feel extremely ashamed for my country. This travesty of justice was allowed to take place. But to top it all we have people in this country, victim’s family included, who are so bent on revenge that they relinquish all reason and humanity. A thirst for revenge is what got us into Iraq and Afghanistan and it’s the reason that the police and the persecutors did everything they can to convict Troy Davis.
I feel ill.
Ruckus
@CarolDuhart:
I’m going out on a limb here.
I went to elementary through high school and attended church with one of the Manson family. I have eaten dinner in this persons house. I thought I knew this person pretty well. I was wrong. I was sickened by what I learned that this person I thought I had known had done. That a human being was capable of this. But I never considered for a moment that this person should die for those crimes. It was and is not that this person was a friend a some point. It was and is that killing this person would not bring back the victims. It doesn’t satisfy their pain. And it makes us the same as the criminal. I thought this person was better than they were. They weren’t but I can be. I don’t have to be a killer just because this person was. And make no mistake, if you are for the death penalty you are as responsible as the jury that chose it, the legislature that legalized it, the legislature that won’t outlaw it, the governor who will not set aside the use of it, the person who injects the chemicals. We are all responsible. We are all killers. We don’t have to be. We can be better. But right now we are not.
There is much injustice in this world. We can’t fix all or probably even most of it, but we can fix some of it. This is one of those things we can fix.
Jebediah
@Ruckus:
Yes! We don’t become better by refusing to be better.
Summer
I, too, have been thinking of West Memphis Three, a case I’ve taught often. In the case of the West Memphis Three the same people controlled the system of justice and had a vested interest in keeping the boys and then men in jail. Its history is an appalling commentary on our justice system. That so much light was brought to bear on Troy Davis (who suffered from a federal judge who made a similar decision to that of one West Memphis appeal — that Davis had to prove actual innocence to gain a new trial instead of demonstrate more than reasonable doubt) and he was still executed is heartbreaking.
As a side note, as a longtime mostly lurker, I wish the rhetoric weren’t so violent here. You want to put a gun in someone’s mouth? Keep it to yourself. But then I also wish everyone weren’t vying to be Rude Pundit’s not very funny little brother.
Summer
Okay, on reflection “everyone” is a bit much. There’s a reason I don’t comment much! It’s just that the violent rhetoric on this thread wounds a bit.
LoudounLib
@Summer: Thank you; I agree.
The Raven
@rob in dc:
The calamity is on-going.
When do we stop?
harlana
after the last two republican debates, people are surprised by the bloodlust of their fellow countrymen?
A Mom Anon
@harlana: Nope.
The news coverage of this has been unbearable. Bringing in 350 cops to avoid a riot? They arrested 2 people I think for being disorderly. All those scary black people in a group must mean trouble. Jesus.
And one of the two witnesses who did not recant is probably the actual killer. Yay us.
harlana
if you wanna see some bloodlust, just check out comments on any yahoo article on this story
drkrick
@A Mom Anon: Just showing us who’s boss. And maybe reminding us that in most jurisdictions, the cops can kill almost anybody with impunity, but if one of them gets hurt, anyone in the vicinity will do as a scapegoat.
The Raven
@MattR: “Are there any federal laws that could be used to override a state execution, even temporarily?”
Perhaps the Federal hate crimes act. Racism was part of this, after all.
Omnes Omnibus
@Elizabelle:
I doubt it. I am utterly opposed to the death penalty – in all circumstances. If someone killed someone close to me, I might want to kill that person, but we are supposed to have lex talionis. Life in prison should be enough; especially since, if a mistake is made, one can try to make up for it. Death is permanent.
Omnes Omnibus
@Omnes Omnibus: Should have said “…we are NOT supposed to have lex talionis….” One word makes a huge difference.
Emma
Dear God. Any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee.
Ivan Ivanovich Renko
@Samara Morgan: Out of the mouths of madwomen.
(said with some affection- I actually like Samara/??/??? — maybe I’m crazy too, ’cause a lot of what she says makes sense to me, in a meta-sorta-way)
ellenelle
@BethanyAnne:
that consideration of redemption’s potential in itself is the bulk of compassion, imho.
compassion is – and should be – at the core of the rejection of this travesty.
for god’s sake, troy’s dignity and grace at the end, in his very last words offering forgiveness and blessings to those who were about to commit this crime and sin against him, that is the epitome of compassion!
if this heinous episode has touched you in any way, his example in this respect should – please – expose the important role of compassion here.
if we’re ever to capture redemption for ourselves as a people again, we need – desperately – to stop shying away from these profoundly crucial capacities, the best of humanity, like compassion and humanity and kindness and generosity. to allow our rhetoric to reject the best of what are as humans is to invite the worst at the outset.
SiubhanDuinne
@Ivan Ivanovich Renko:
But I was wishing she hadn’t used the smiley face this time.
vtr
I deplore the death penalty for the reasons enunciated above, but also because it allows the thoughtless to believe that something effective is being done to reduce violent crime.
Jennifer Harris
It was wise and judicious for President Obama to decline to comment on this matter — our system requires a deep respect for state sovereignty. Although many other public figures like Bob Barr foolishly opined on the matter, Obama properly recognized the sanctity of a local prosecution.
The President knows that there is a time to speak in the face of injustice. When a racist police officer unlawfully invaded the home of a respected professor and asked him impertinent questions, Obama called out the officer in front of the world and declared that he acted “stupidly.” Then, in a gracious show of forgiveness, he healed the nation by inviting the officer to a White House “beer summit.”
Could the President not do the same thing here? Despite their differences, the families of Troy Davis and the slain officer are both hurting. Why not bring them, and the nation, together in another beer summit? Healing, not hurting, is what this country needs.
lol
I think the important thing that everyone can agree on here is that the system worked.
ellenelle
@Steve:
wow. steve, first, your refusal to engage in back and forth on this can only be interpreted as cowardice.
no more or less cowardice than killing this man.
for all your legalese, you seem to have inverted the “innocent until proven guilty…beyond a reasonable doubt.” are you completely ignorant of the fact that 7 of 9 witnesses have recanted, and that even a number of the very jurors you so venerate here have openly stated that, had they known what is now known in this case, they would have never have voted for troy’s guilt.
in the recanting witnesses there is evidence they were pressured by the police and prosecution; this is what they have presented. so much so, there is a call to the doj to investigate that troy’s civil rights were violated (not to mention those of the witnesses).
moreover, there are now abundant studies – one in just recent weeks – exposing the utter weakness of eyewitness accounts (as a cognitive psychologist, i can quote you chapter and verse about all the things that interfere with true recall and recognition).
in addition, there was NO physical evidence linking davis to this crime; no weapon no DNA nothing.
but the larger issue here is that your ignorance of these points is so boldly exposed in your comment, an ignorance that you scurry from like a skunk who has stunk up the discourse with spineless nastiness and skulked into the safety of darkness.
your argument was a great case for guilty until proven innocent, but – last i checked – this is decidedly NOT what our system of justice is supposed to be about.
OzoneR
@Linnaeus:
well yes it did, but not because of lack of death penalty.
Ivan Ivanovich Renko
Said with a smile, or with a sad little moue, the fact remains– in the heart of the Old Confederacy, the powers that be will take any opportunity to punish a black man in any way they can as much as they possibly can. It’s who they are– it’s what they do.
Rob
@ sistermoon Would that be the Ann Coulter who regularly appears on CNN and of course FNC? That is only slightly less of a national disgrace than what happened in Georgia last night.
Chet
@Samara Morgan: “Demographic timer”? Puh-lease.
Oh, the demographic changes you allude to are coming, all right. But you’re naive indeed if you think some glorious utopia is in the offing. Religious mania, political grandstanding, state-sanctioned sadism, and man’s-inhumanity-to-fucking-man aren’t going to disappear from this country or any other just because all the old crackers have died out. And that will also be the case regardless of how nominally “progressive” the new majority is in its politics.
The problem ain’t the white race. It’s the fucking human race.
ellenelle
@Elizabelle:
this is still too long but:
government sucks at educating our kids, but is great at killing them!
support our teachers; abolish the death penalty and wars
Rob
This is what Coulter wrote on Twitter. WARNING: Inhuman.
ellenelle
@hitchhiker:
thankyouthankyouthankyou for making that point. one i’d forgotten.
thank you.
celtidragonchick
@Mack Lyons:
I agree with your anger, yet I also caution that telling somebody to shoot themsleves for making a dickish comment is not really called for.
celtidragonchick
@Mack Lyons:
I agree with your anger, yet I also caution that telling somebody to shoot themsleves for making a dickish comment is not really called for.
Certified Mutant Enemy
@jron:
That was pretty much one of the reasons for invading Iraq…
slippy
@Anya:
I would only support capital punishment if the judge, jury, investigating officers, and prosecuting attorneys involved in putting a man to death were bonded in some way and a mandatory, required, hard-core review process were initiated for each and every execution that was carried out, and in the event of lies, misplaced evidence, falsification of evidence, or even mistakes on the part of any of the folks involved then THEIR HEADS are put upon the chopping block as well and made a serious, hard-core example of.
Since I know that level of accountability is beyond the moral reach of our society and probably always will be it’s better to just abolish the god-damn death penalty and be done with it. There is NO ACCOUNTABILITY for failure in DP cases, there is NO INCENTIVE to get the facts right, and there is NO PENALTY for murdering an innocent man. So, let’s abolish it already.
ellenelle
@James E. Powell:
hence the details of the release: the three had to admit to their “guilt”! this is what saved the authorities from being sued.
just sick how the powerful can infinitely perpetuate their power, and their insanity. i could swear THIS is precisely what our “new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that ALL men are created equal” was supposed to be about.
ellenelle
@superluminar:
or alternatively: require the family members of the victims do the deed.
i know that sounds crass, but is it more crass than allowing them to witness someone else doing their vengeance for them??
ellenelle
@LoudounLib:
thank you; i third that emotion.
ellenelle
@Jennifer Harris:
jennifer, obama did not intervene because this was outside his jurisdiction; the law prohibits.
we can only hope that, had it been otherwise and the law did NOT prohibit his intervention, he would have done so, without hesitation, and not allowed decorum to stop him.
the law limits obama, but NOT bob barr; why in hell do you think he “foolishly” opined?? he’s from GA, for chrissake! and he, as a US citizen as well, is not entitled to an opinion??
(sorry if i misunderstood you, but it did sound a bit like you were trying to say bravo for prez restraint on the basis of states’ rights decorum; please rethink.)
ellenelle
@ellenelle:
oh, and just to add re: the w memphis 3 – they were, of course, not black, but white.
another big diff.
Joel
@Jennifer Harris: Bob Barr is a former representative from Georgia. Even accepting your premise, that state sovereignity should be respected above all, by all, why shouldn’t this current private citizen speak out? I think Bob Barr should be congratulated for his honesty and outspokenness.
Chinn Romney
I haven’t really followed this case until late yesterday. I was immediately struck by the fact that the original prosecutor was Spencer Lawton. He was the prosecutor in ‘Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil’. He came across as borderline unethical in that yarn (although it was labeled as non-fiction, the author took alot of liberties so who knows).
Svensker
Once it was in the hands of SCOTUS I knew there was no hope. Not with that bloodthirsty crew. That right there is a reason to vote for Obama even if he’s disappointed you 20 ways to Sunday.
While I hate the death penalty, I can understand supporting it. I’ve got a friend who was attacked by a repeat felon and would have died except for amazing luck — but 25 years later she is still in pain every day, has no money because she hasn’t been able to work since the attack, many friends and family have deserted her because it’s just too hard to be around — and all because an evil bastard decided it would be fun to murder her (that’s what he told a fellow criminal who was so flipped out, he turned him in). If anyone “deserves” the death penalty, that psychopath does.
But it seems to me that if you ARE going to support the death penalty, you owe it to humanity to go about it in the most solemn and serious manner, taking it as a grave and terrible responsibility and one that you lose a lot of sleep over. People like Malkin and Coulter who giggle and gloat are an embarrassment to the human race. The only thing I thank them for is that the anger stops my tears.
Blahblah
I do admit to jacking off with hobo blood.
P.S. “refusing to accept the facts in an unfortunate situation” is a fine definition for Pollyanna.
daveNYC
@Comrade Kevin:
Probably. They seem to have been very invested in the belief that Troy was the killer and his death will bring them ‘closure’. Though I suspect that the execution will bring them relief in the same way that sea water quenches thirst.
Judas Escargot
@Svensker:
At least four Opus Dei Catholics, usually quite happy to inflict the tenets of their faith upon the rest of us… supporting the death penalty.
Think of this, every time you see that smug little smile on Robert’s face: If the hell he believes in exists, he’s going there.
wilfred
How did the SCOTUS vote go? I haven’t seen the breakdown anywhere.
I oppose the death penalty. I’d like to see it a litmus test for Presidential candidates, the way other things appear to be. By that I mean I’d like to see a candidate say flat out that he or she was against it and would appoint judges who felt the same way. The only way, the absolute only way, to avoid executing the innocent is to stop executions.
Jennifer Harris
jennifer, obama did not intervene because this was outside his jurisdiction; the law prohibits
ellenelle, I am SO sorry I was unclear — I never meant to suggest that Obama should have intervened in violation of the law! Indeed, I was praising him for remaining completely SILENT even though he could have lawfully spoken out like he does in so many controversies (like he did with the beer summit situation and the Islamic Cultural Center in lower Manhattan). Too many world leaders, civil rights organizations, public officiais and moral authorities have created divisiveness by taking side in the Troy Davis matter. Obama exercised great courage and statesmanship by remaining quiet, and thereby increasing the respect for this nation’s law enforcement and judicial institutions.
Joel, I don’t think the public/private distinction is important in this case. Certainly, Obama had a full legal right to speak out like Desmond Tutu, Bob Barr and so many others, but avoided that hurtful course. It’s exciting to have an intelligent chief executive who knows that there is a time for action, and a time to heal.
Obama doubtlessly could have delayed the execution by calling for a federal investigation or otherwise exercising his influence, something that Barr as a private citizen could not have. But I am so thankful that he so wisely did nothing, and took to the further step of declining to offer so much as an opinion. This country has had enough strife, and it is time to come together!
The Raven
“It was wise and judicious for President Obama to decline to comment on this matter—our system requires a deep respect for state sovereignty.”
This sounds remarkably like the defense of slavery used by antebellum South.
Or is it satire?
dww44
@Chinn Romney: Yes, and he was quoted as saying yesterday that the verdict was right and that the only real problem was the lapse of time between the actual trial and the execution, which allowed the convicted to mount a kind of “smoke and mirrors” defense.
He just left that position in 2008 I believe.
Samara Morgan
@Chet: i disagree chet, cher.
the problem is the decline of big white christian bwana and the rise of dark-skinned democracy. Democracy enables the colonization of western electorates by immigrants and the children of immigrants.
Globally, i like to call this the demographic singularity. By 2050 the projections have non-hispanic cauc at single digits for global percentage.
And in America NHC cauc will drop below 50%.
Since 1/3 of NHC caucs vote liberal, Carter to Obama, that means that white christian nativist party (the teabagger GOP) will never win another election.
Catsy
@superluminar:
You would have to prove bad faith and intent to deceive, but yes. Deliberately lying or tampering with evidence/witnesses in order to wrongfully convict someone of a capital crime is–and should be legally regarded as–attempted murder. If the person is executed and the lying/tampering is later proven, actual murder. If it is negligence rather than deliberate deceit, call it manslaughter or negligent homicide.
Simply losing the case should not be enough. People make mistakes. There would have to be demonstrable negligence or intent to deceive.
Extreme? Perhaps. But it would sure as hell make police and prosecutors take a good hard look at whether or not they have an airtight case. Because if they don’t have the kind of rock-solid case they’d bet their own lives or careers on, they have no business trying to bet someone else’s life on it by seeking the death penalty.
That doesn’t mean people have to get away with murder. If you think you can prove the crime, charge them. Just don’t try to kill them if there is so much as a shred of reasonable doubt or impropriety in the case.
dww44
@Svensker: Thanks for that. Have you read this whole thread and seen the twitter comment about Coulter’s post on this whole tragedy/travesty? Tis destined to become a favorite anti-Coulter comment, IMO.
Catsy
@Svensker:
It is because of people like them that I hope intelligent alien life has not yet visited our world and won’t for some time to come–I would be utterly humiliated to have our species judged by their sick example.
That goes for damn near the entirety of elected Republicans at this point, too.
Samara Morgan
@Chet: of course, its complicated by red/blue genetics, the distribution of IQ, and the bio basis of behavior like backfire effect and RWA tendency.
But you should read our old homeslice Steve Sailer on it.
:)
you can look on A-stan and Iraq as the Epic Fail of the Last Grand Misadventure of Western Colonialism.
10 years ago (and 4.4 trillion dollahs) Iraq was 97% muslim and A-stan was 99% muslim– those stats are unchanged today.
No takers for missionary democracy. That is because dar ul Islam is immune in situ.
:)
wilfred
What’s done is done. After the first death, there is no other, etc., etc., etc.
The question is what one does to make sure it never happens again. Demand a candidate to stand against the death penalty and promise to appoint judges who think the same fucking way.
The rest is bullshit.
Samara Morgan
@Chet:
and you know….i fucking hate this kumbayah we-are-the-same bulshytt.
White is not a race. Caucasian is a race. Whites are non-hispanic caucs.
NHC christian conservative nativists are the problem that will be solved by demographic change.
And we are not the same.
I am not the same as Ann Coulter.
You are not the same as Eric Cantor (i hope).
This country has a problem with one party being entirely NHC christian nativist conservatives. That problem IS going to be solved by the demographic timer.
Cain
@ellenelle:
It seems that this might be a good basis for a civil suit against the State of Georgia. Perhaps a couple of million dollars worth of damages and embarrassing the governor might be in order? Then one can hope that he would lose his seat as well as making those involved toxic to society.
Jennifer Harris
“It was wise and judicious for President Obama to decline to comment on this matter—our system requires a deep respect for state sovereignty.”
This sounds remarkably like the defense of slavery used by antebellum South. Or is it satire?
Raven, this sounds like you are accusing President Obama of racism, just like Glenn Beck did. Obama very clearly issued a statement through his spokesman which said “it was not appropriate . . . weigh in on specific cases like this one, which is a STATE prosecution.” So yes, he is giving proper deference to state law enforcement. And note that he is not saying anything about legally intervening — he, too, knows that is obviously impossible and wants to stress that just “weighing in” would be morally wrong and divisive.
As President Obama has shown, leadership means knowing when it is time to weigh in and act. When that Massachusetts officer began questioning the Harvard professor whether he lived in his OWN HOME, Obama did not accept the silly, racist excuse that the officer was just “investigating” a burglarly. He bravely weighed in by saying that the officer acted “stupidly'” and then invited the officer and the professor to Washington to reconcile their differences. No, in that case Obama did not have the legal right to intervene in the alleged local police investigation, but by doing so he brought this nation the Beer Summit which had done so much to improve relationships between citizens. I was sad at the time that other public officials did not lend their voices to condemn that terrible incident in Cambridge.
With the Troy Davis situation, though, I’m not sure talking would have done much. The courts looked at the matter for years and found no error. What purpose would it have served for the President to weigh in? Just more strife between the people of this country.
ellenelle
@Jennifer Harris:
jennifer, i appreciate your clarifying your position, which i acknowledged i might not have gotten entirely.
but i still disagree with you; the public/private distinction is utterly crucial here!! obama is not only legally bound to withhold legal action in the matter, for that very reason it would be imprudent for him to speak out precisely because he is a sitting president!! tutu has never held office but carter and barr have, yet all three are free citizens and therefore no constraint on voicing their opinions should ever be levied.
and by the way, the fact is that obama did not remain totally silent; his press secretary released a statement underscoring the limits of the president’s capacities in such cases. the fact that this statement was issued speaks worlds, under the circumstances (as opposed to ignoring it altogether).
frankly, i have no idea what you’re getting at to try and promote healing without ‘hurt’; as a psychologist, i don’t know of any case or theory that promotes healing without confronting the truth, no matter how painful (given time and care). such ‘healing’ is false, and only serves to heal over the wound, which will then only fester, producing exceedingly destructive poison to do damage subcutaneously/subconsciously until it eventually erupts.
forgive me, but i believe there has already been some discussion here regarding pollyanna; i beg you again to rethink.
ellenelle
@Jennifer Harris:
jennifer, i just reread your response to me, to make sure i was not too hard on you.
but, i fear, i don’t think i even scratched the surface! again, forgive me, but
are you serious here?? what divisiveness? what has been exposed in the outcry worldwide is that there is international solidarity against the death penalty, with the rather unsavory exceptions of china, iran, north korea, yemen, and the US (and a smattering of others who only executed one or two last year).
are you truly, seriously, really suggesting that these folks who have media megaphones, who can capture the ears of so many to perhaps make a difference in this vile situation, keep their mouths shut so we can “all just get along”?? blindly, blithely skipping through the insanity as if it didn’t exist?? how does that help? would you suggest the victim of incest never speak up? would you suggest the slaves never protested? would you suggest the grownups and adults never speak up on their behalf??
sorry, but my head is spinning. you have got to be kidding. this sort of out-pollyanna’s pollyanna, my dear.
Jennifer Harris
ellenelle, it looks like our comments crossed! As you can see, I posted Obama’s statement, where he very clear says he doesn’t want to talk about state prosecutions. And again, please note that he’s just talking about “weighing in” — not legally intervening. You, I and Obama are in TOTAL AGREEMENT that he couldn’t have done anything legally-speaking.
But, of course he can “speak out.” He is always “speaking out” about matters of public interest, even police matters. He was a “sitting president” when he criticized the Maasachussets police investigation, and he was a “sitting president” when he “spoke out” for the right of Muslims to build their center several blocks away from Ground Zero. So again, the public/private distinction isn’t relevant here. I have given too very specific examples of when Obama “spoke out” about local matters. He did NOT in those cases just issue a statement “underscoring the limits of the President’s capacity in such cases.” He took a moral, not legal, stand about the police officer acting stupidly and the Muslims exercising their religious freedoms. Although, I don’t know, perhaps you think he should have remained silent in those cases too as a sitting president?
The Other Chuck
@Samara Morgan:
“Caucasian” is the invention of some bible-thumping doofus who thought that white folks were the ones the stepped off the ark somewhere in the Caucasus Mountains. It’s as much a legitimate classification of ethnicity as “juicy” is a fruit.
ellenelle
@Cain:
lordy, would so love to see that.
perhaps troy’s remarkable nephew will get a law degree and pursue this.
ellenelle
@Jennifer Harris:
jennifer, we are speaking across each other, it seems. what i fear you miss in trying to make your point is the fact that the examples you give – the beer summit and the NYC mosque – do not involve a capital crime!! nor are those cases twenty years old, with abundant legal activity involved, at both the state AND federal levels.
in short, those cases are trivial by comparison, so the comparison, i feel, does not apply here.
but, it seems, we can get to the bottom of our disagreement with this statement you just made:
this, my friend, is where we diverge entirely. in that statement, you expose your faint education on this matter, your lack of knowledge as to the details, details to which tutu and carter and barr and many many others the world over had exposed themselves and found the courts in error.
with that statement, you suggest you have total and complete faith in the US judicial system, which is the core of the problem for most of us here on this thread.
if you read the comments more carefully, and read barr’s article (linked up here somewhere), as well as many other sites that delineate just how heinous is this crime (including an interview with a former GA prison warden), you might well understand the reaction your suggestion that these people stop talking is getting.
you appear to be saying, the courts have spoken so the rest of us should shut up, including obama (who is legally bound to) and everyone else with a public profile and an opinion, because it’s just too upsetting and we should just move on, nothing to see here.
jennifer, the very reason this case has generated such an outcry is the fact that the courts DEFIED justice! and they tend to do so in every.single.case.like it.
respectfully submitted.
daveNYC
@Catsy:
Good luck with any of that. There was some prosecutorial misconduct case a few years ago that got appealed or something. Sorry hazy on the details, but the upshot of the decision was an insanely high bar to clear in order to get a conviction. Like literally you had to prove what they were thinking because otherwise it’d be harshing the mellow of the entire system. Sadly, my Google-fu is weak.
Jennifer Harris
Ellenelle, the ONLY issue I have spoken about is how wise Obama has been to remain silent — nothing else! And I actually QUOTED his reason: he didn’t want to speak out about a state prosecution. I really don’t understand your argument. You seem to be saying that it’s fine for a “sitting president” to speak out about completely trivial local matters like the Mass. police investigation and the NYC mosque, but he should “shut up” when it comes to capital crimes. Wouldn’t it be MORE important for him to speak out in such cases? NOT to legally intervene — I NEVER NEVER NEVER said he could do that, did I? — just to “speak out.” That’s what other sitting public congress members like John Lewis, Jessie Jackson Jr. and Shelia Jackson Lee and Senator Carol Moseley- Braun. Of course, they have no legal authority to intervene, but they did speak out.
However, the reason I believe it was courageous and statemanlike for Obama to remain quiet is the reason HE gave: it was a “state prosecution.” That is the ONLY reason he gave, and he said it was the reason he was not “weighing in” (again, again . . . I never never said anything about legal intervention . . . please don’t even suggest I did!).
And it is VERY relevant that the courts found no error! That is why Obama did not speak out! He recognizes that the people most closely involved in the case have reviewed the evidence and the testimony for years, and that he has not. If he wanted to, he could have had the justice department look into it, just like they do in so many cases where the state makes the wrong decision. Many members of the Ku Klux Klan were convicted by the federal courts after they were acquitted by state courts and juries! But Obama did not see this as such a case, and did not want to lend his influence to it by speaking out.
I am all for citizens speaking out! I am glad you, and so many else did. It is so sad you failed. But I am just talking about Obama’s brave refusal to speak out, and why it is justified. You seem to agree with me that he should have kept his mouth shut like he did, even though he had every legal right to like he did in those trivial cases. So I think we’re on the same side on this one.
But maybe I am still mistaken. Why do YOU believe that President Obama was wise NOT to speak out like so many sitting congress members and world leaders? Again, remember — I am NOT talking about him intervening legally — not at all.
Samara Morgan
@The Other Chuck: that may all be true, but caucasian is a modern racial classification.
“white” is not.
Uriel
@ellenelle: I’m pretty sure ‘Jennifer Harris’ is being a snarky jerk off, not making an actual argument in good faith. The references to the beer summit and the over-use of refferences to the President’s courage and wisdom, are usually pretty reliable tells that someone’s trying (poorly, I might add) to be ironical.
Catsy
@daveNYC:
I know you’re not necessarily disagreeing, but to that I say: “GOOD.” There should be a strong, aggressive disincentive to seeking the death penalty when the case isn’t so airtight it might as well be vacuum-sealed. It shouldn’t be common, and it should be a risk that makes public officials think twice for fear that they might be getting it wrong–and paying dearly for that lapse in judgment.
Most of what is sick and broken about our justice system revolves around the lack of accountability for official misconduct.
Less Popular Tim
@scav: @scav:
Yes, not-college-educated troll Blahblah would have more aptly, from his perspective, called us “Cassandras,” from Greek mythology, rather than Pollyanna (circa 1900 U.S. kid-lit, comparable to Nancy Drew franchise, e.g.)
mei jie
http://www.christianlouboutinonlinesale.com/christian-louboutin-rolando-hiddenplatform-pump-patent-leather-p-112.html
Jennifer Harris
Uriel,
Huh? People say that the President is courageous and wise all the time. He killed Bin Laden, after all!
Don’t be a hater.
Catsy
@Jennifer Harris: I have to give it to you, this one almost approached being subtle. A bit too transparent though, especially in context with everything else you’ve posted. I’d gauge it a 3 out of 10 for trolling, with bonus points awarded for persistence.
Jennifer Harris
Gosh, what a bunch of sourpusses! I think I detect a bunch of teabaggers here who hate the President just because he’s black.
Catsy, why are you a racist?
eemom
@Catsy:
fairly amazing that someone is willing to put that much effort into being an asshole. Maybe Grover has upped the pay grade for entry level troll.
ellenelle
@Uriel:
whatever. viewing that last response from her to you, perhaps you’re right.
god knows i was growing quite weary of trying to follow her line of (pseudo) reasoning. appreciate the cue to ignore her now.
Jennifer Harris
eemon . . . I think I’ve figured out why you hate Obama. You think that all black people just want to burn down cities and courts and break the law, and you are angry that the President has respect for the court system.
Probably, you’re a teabagger who thinks Obama was born in Kenya, and somebody just PLANTED his quote about not weighing in about a “state prosecution.”
I bet on other websites, you go around saying that he’s a hypocritical coward who couldn’t even bring himself to say a single word about the state-sanctioned murder of an innocent man, even though he’ll spend hours at Beer Summits and giving out his NCCAAA picks. How despicable you are!
But why not just give me some more of your “intellectual honesty” about how the real reason he couldn’t say a word about Troy Davis was that he’s a “sitting president” and “not a private citizen.” I know that deep, deep down in your racist heart you really believe that. His hands were totally LEGALLY tied — from talking! We all know how he HATES to give speeches. Stage fright or sometimes.
You are all so FUNNY!!!
LOLZ, goodbye silly TROLLZ
Amir Khalid
@Samara Morgan:
In the biological sense, there is in fact no such thing as “race”, as you should know. “Caucasian” is a term originating from 19th century pseudo-science, as The Other Chuck points out; in that sense, it is as bogus as “white” — itself a historically elastic concept in America. Race is a political concept.
Troy Davis’ apparently wrongful execution may have had a lot to do with his being black, but racial discrimination as such is not the issue here. The issue is that the case against him fell apart after he was sentenced to death, but he exhausted his appeals and then the courts wouldn’t reopen the case. That is the injustice that needs to be addressed.
ellenelle
oh my; i’ve now read the last few posts, and can see i was taken in. should have recognized the word salad for what it was, but don’t spend enough time in the comments normally to know the local corner scamsters.
truly, eemom; clearly someone with too much time on their hands, yet not a pair of neurons to rub together.
so, egg on my face for taking the time to opine about troy’s miserable fate, and this is what awaits.
i can only sigh.
ellenelle
holy creepus, jenjen’s final kiss off is a real show of psychosis there!
i remember now why i stay away from the comments. sheez.
Jennifer Harris
ellenelle: You’ll ignore me now because you’re a liar, and highly intellectually dishonest.
One thing I’ve noticed: You’ve continually refused to give your reasons why Obama stayed silent. You’ve ignored his documented public reason: “it was a state prosecution.” You’ve pretended it has something to do with him being a “sitting president” as opposed to a “private citizen”, when you know very well that PLENTY of PUBLIC officials and world leaders have condemned the execution. You also know that it has nothing to do with his “hands being tied” because he can’t “legally intervene,” a matter that wasn’t remotely an issue until YOU kept trying to interject that nonsense.
Oh, and you’re a genius for suggesting that it was more appropriate for Obama to talk about trivial local matters like a burglary investigation and mosque, that a very public national execution of an innocent man.
You know why you’re protecting Obama in such a ridiculous, indefensible fashion? Because of the color of his skin. Yes, you’re racist, a fucking racist. Own it. Own your racism. Own your hatred.
You fucking troll.
Jennifer Harris
holy creepus, jenjen’s final kiss off is a real show of psychosis there!
i remember now why i stay away from the comments. sheez.
WOW!!!! What a STUNNING refutation of everything I said!! I thought trolls just hurled out fact-free insults, rather than listing specific facts like (1) Obama’s actual quote, (2) a list of examples where he’s spoken out as a sitting president, (3) a list of public official who did speak out about Troy Davis.
But elle, you IMPRESS me! I totally understand now why you’re defending Obama’s silence. It has something to do with, well, something. TOTALLY!!!!!!!
Sorry I gave you the vapors and now you can’t look at the comments anymore because everyone’s not as smart as someone who plays a psychologist on the internets.
upperwestsider
Jen, you are a total jerkoff and yes a troll . . . go back to listening to Rush.
That said, Obama should have spoken out more than he did. He did fight against the death penalty in Illinois as a state senator, and I am sure he would have had something to say about the Davis case if it was in the news back then. His silence was just good politics — he’ll never win a fight over capital punishment when you have people cheering executions at Republican debates.
eemom
The trolling style of “Jennifer Harris” is something of a cross between Corner Stone and Uncle Clarence, except with more words.
Perhaps they’ve gotten together to pool their, um, “talents.”
eemom
amended: That IS you, isn’t it, Corner Stone? How very amusing that you’ve become that which you despise.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
.
.
@eemom:
Do not take my name in vain, drunk woman. If you have another stupid question, please feel free to ask your superior. I’m listening…
Or perhaps not. Or perhaps some say. Or perhaps some do not. Or perhaps you are a vile witless racist balloonbagger troll – for me to poop on.
.
.
Jennifer Harris
Your responses are all so detailed and informative. Are you part of a race of evolved super-humans?
Uncle Clarence Thomas
.
.
@Jennifer Harris:
I can’t speak for the others, but it is a well-known fact that I partake of SUPER COKE! and recommend it highly. That’s what makes me a SUPER COKE! brother.
.
.
stormhit
@Jennifer Harris:
You’re an insane person.
Jennifer Harris
Stormhit: I am overwhelmed by the originality and depth of your statement. I now truly understand why whatever point you are making about Troy Davis’ execution and Obama’s silence must necessarily be true.
Omnes Omnibus
@Samara Morgan: Must every thread be twisted to fit one of your two obsessions? Grow up and give it a rest.
suzanne
@Samara Morgan:
Funny how those immigrants all seem to turn conservative as soon as they aren’t hates as much.
The Raven
@Jennifer Harris: “this sounds like you are accusing President Obama of racism,”
No, but I think you perhaps are one. “States rights” was the call of slave holders before the civil war. It is now the call of, among other groups, racists.
I see no reason to think Obama is racist.
As to the broader issue, I am struck by the way all of the highest authorities of the USA found reasons not to intervene. The Supreme Court, Congress, the President, all found reasons not to act, and now a man who is likely innocent has been killed by the state of Georgia.
No citizen is safe from a corrupt state government, it appears. Why is there not more concern for your own lives and freedoms, if not compassion for Troy Davis?
Jennifer Harris
No, but I think you perhaps are one. “States rights” was the call of slave holders before the civil war. It is now the call of, among other groups, racists.
Raven, Obama was the one who invoked states’ rights. Didn’t you read his quote? Under your theory, he’s a racist.
James Martin
I can empathize with those who oppose the death penalty on the grounds that no one should be put death – ever, guilty or innocent. I get that you may object to the ending of another human life under any circumstances.
But what really bothers me is the utter and complete lack of acknowledgement of the genuine possibility (I would say extremely high likelihood) that Troy really did kill a police officer in cold blood, and has lied about it ever since. You all cite the fact that he maintained his innocence with his dying breaths as proof of said innocence – I would claim just the opposite. A sociopath will never, ever admit the truth of his crimes when he has something to lose, and believe me, Troy Davis had a great deal to lose: he had convinced millions of people of his innocence, people who are now emotionally invested in their belief that he was a hapless victim of a racist system. Those people lionized and praised him and his family. They treated him as a hero, as a victim and a martyr. He had, for however brief an instant, the ultimate dream for sociopaths – power, praise and attention on a global scale.
For sociopaths, it’s all about that power. I’ve heard a lot of talk about the cruel and unusual punishment Troy underwent during the three hour delay while the supreme court considered his last appeal. But understand this, he loved every minute of it. Once again, he made the system jump to his whim, and once again, he made the family of his victims wait, suffering each moment in uncertainty that justice would be done. He probably spent the last hours on that gurney imagining the laws that will bear his name in the future, laws that will make it even harder for convicted murderers to finally be executed for their crimes.
I will admit that it is possible, however unlikely, that Troy Davis is not guilty of shooting Mark MacPhail that night. Anything is possible.
But what you all seem to be forgetting is that there was only one party to this affair that can truly be said to be innocent beyond any doubt, reasonable or otherwise – and that is the murdered officer and his family, who are still suffering. With every word of praise you heap upon Troy Davis, with every aspersion you cast upon the years of hearings they sat through to see the murderer of their family member brought to justice, you are adding to their misery. By proclaiming Troy’s innocence you are killing their loved one all over again.
“I am Troy Davis” you loudly proclaim.
Yes, you are.
gwangung
If that bothers you, then you DO NOT COMPREHEND OUR LEGAL SYSTEM.
And you seem to repeat that non-comprehension at length.
That seems to me the mark of an idiot.
Jennifer Harris
If that bothers you, then you DO NOT COMPREHEND OUR LEGAL SYSTEM.
If the execution bothers you, then you DO NOT COMPREHEND OUR LEGAL SYSTEM.
The legal system upheld the conviction, remember?
Warren Bonesteel
Wikipedia. Blackstone’s Formulation. The foundation of our – ahem – original legal system.
After we’ve executed a man …and find that we still argue over his guilt or innocence, we’ve done something wrong.
We’ve become that which we have always claimed to oppose.
The Raven
“@Jennifer Harris: “Raven, Obama was the one who invoked states’ rights.”
It was his press secretary and he didn’t use the dog-whistle phrase “states rights,” but the press secretary did invoke the concept. There are other reasons than racism, of course, to invoke states rights. Like, say, wanting to get re-elected.
Regardless, I wish he had not. His use of the concept supports people who are racists.
Jennifer Harris
Raven:
Q. You know what you call someone who lets an innocent black man die for political reasons after instructing his press secretary to issue an official statement invoking the states’ rights concept?
A. A racist.
Why are you concerned that the statement will support racists? What are those racists going to do that’s worse than killing a black man for politics? Use the N-word?
vernon
Finkelstein: “It’s notable that no one even expected Obama to say, let alone do, anything.”
IMO “notable” is an understatement: it speaks volumes.