The latest Fox News bullshit meme is that Democrats are giving up on white middle-class voters, which as Steve Benen explains, of course they aren’t. The origin of this was a piece by Tom Edsal that pointed out that white, non-college-grad males are leaving the Democratic Party and are hard to persuade.
As Benen and others point out, white lower-middle class males are not a monolithic block, and plenty of them can separate rhetoric from the economic realities of their situation. No Democrat has been trying to replace Medicare with a voucher or invest their Social Security in the stock market, and lots of lower-middle class white males know that. But what about the others — those who will vote for Republican against their economic interests to further some other ill-defined interest? What even motivates these voters?
A social theorist, or a think tank researcher, would have a number of explanations centering around tribalism, false consciousness and perhaps a wee bit of racism. I don’t have any of those credentials, so I’ve got no theories, but I do get the distinct impression that chasing after any group of voters whose main motivation is essentially irrational is a pointless exercise if there’s any alternative. And, for 2012, the alternative is clear: play the anti-immigrant rhetoric from the last hundred debates on an endless loop on any TV channel that reaches a Hispanic neighborhood. That’s got to be a far better way to spend campaign cash than an effort to cozy up to “NASCAR dads” by proving that Obama is the kind of guy they’d want to have a beer with. Trying to associate the Democratic brand with some ill-defined tribal signifiers is a hell of a lot harder than convincing Hispanics that they would be second-class citizens in a Gingrich or Romney administration. The former involves chasing down a shimmering mirage that’s always a few miles further in the distance. The latter just requires articulating a simple, easily demonstrated fact.
(Image from Buffalopundit)
greennotGreen
“tribalism, false consciousness and perhaps a wee bit of racism”
I think you’re underestimating the racism.
Hispanics aren’t the only immigrants, and all recent immigrants are going to be appalled by the nativist rhetoric coming from the Republicans.
El Cid
Usually voting behavior has a big regional variation among whites. Although you can point to underlying variables (church attendance, etc), Southern and Western whites are much more conservative in their voting behavior.
Some Guy
New meme: THE GOP is the VIP party. There practices around the payroll Tax hiatus can be used to get some more leverage with this white, male working class voters who are deluded about whose their friend. Pi have never seen Republicans be so nakedly in the bag for the wealthy as this last year. They just completely dropped their mask. That needs to be leveraged to the hilt.
debbie
John Kasich would beg to differ.
Mark S.
Benen:
There’s a political party that sees losing the black vote by only 80 points as a pretty good outing. Of course, Newt might change that with his “I’m going to get all you lazy criminals off food stamps and into minimum wage jobs” campaign.
SiubhanDuinne
I hope nobody’s thinking of using that image in an advertising campaign — it could easily backfire. At a quick glance (say, driving quickly past a billboard) the message at the bottom would likely be read as the imperative “VOTE Republican” rather than the descriptive “VOTES Republican.”
Don’t get me wrong, for anyone who reads it properly it’s a powerful message. I just think it needs to be recast somehow.
JPL
The President might not receive as many votes as he did in the past from the white middle class bloc. Several folks vote against their self-interest because they might think the Scrooges of the world will save them. Also, too there is the gun thing. Buy your ammo now… My concern has to do with pushing a meme long enough it might come true.
Well if all these average joes are voting for x, I should also.
@Some Guy: You are missing the point. If the democrats would end social security and medicare, then the repubs would allow for the tax break.
Both sides do it.
Mark S.
Wow, Newt missed the filing date to be on the ballot in Missouri? Unfuckingbelievable. Does his staff consist of anyone besides Calista and Future Wife #4?
via
Napoleon
Jesus is this post idiotic.
Quite possibly the stupidest thing ever to appear on the front page here (edit, excluding every single ABL post).
Memo to mistermix, voting “groups” are not “won” and are not “lost”. They do not operate as The Borg. A vote won from the white working class is the same as winning some black person’s vote from Barack’s view point, even if he only gets 40% of the white working class and 90% of black peoples. Having 2 people who would never vote for you in a million years decide to sit out the vote is the same as getting one of those people to vote. On top of that it is entirely possible for a campaign to, you know, walk and chew gum at the same time by actually targeting more then one demographic cohort at a time.
If Obama decides to “not chase” the white working is smart politics then the man is too stupid to be President. The whole payroll tax issue is custom made to appeal to this group, even if all it does is depress the urge to vote among those that would almost certainly vote republican.
You do know that the Ryan vote came AFTER the last election. The Dems have not yet had the opportunity to roll out this argument to the white working class, but what the hell, they should just quit chasing them.
For a pretty good take on this here is Chait smacking Mistermix around. Bonus points to Chait for the Lennon reference.
http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2011/12/working-class-hero-is-something-to-be.html
Some Guy
@JPL: My bad, not thinking clearly this morning. It is so simple.
smintheus
All voters have some irrational motives. It’s one thing to direct your campaign toward certain states/regions, but it’s completely another to give up on entire demographics just because they’re a tough sell. A traditional Democratic campaign, ‘Time to ensure gov’t works on behalf of all of us’, can be made appealing to disaffected working class voters. It just can’t be mealy mouthed, as Dem presidential campaigns typically are.
Mino
Watching MSNBC last night, I saw stories on three large-sized businesses firing workers wholesale, reneging on pensions and ending employee health insurance. All because sales cannot be increased–no demand. If those CEO’s want to justify the big bucks, they have to cut costs. And it’s not like they don’t understand the vicious cycle: they must by now. They don’t care, or they’re too craven to buck the stream. They have no faith that their small effort to do right will influence the larger picture. And would it, really?
What will twelve more months like this do?
bin Lurkin'
I’ve started this about half a dozen times and still haven’t figured out what I want to say so I’m just gonna babble a bit.
All you had to do was listen to and look at the audiences for the Republican debates to figure out their base is white and crazy. A true D’oh, moment. I look in the mirror and want to go and hide because these people look just like me and it’s embarrassing to share so many physical characteristics with them.
If you are plugged into the white Christian conservative network it’s damn near impossible to deprogram yourself and the movement has a Newt-like explanation for any possible argument you might hear against it. My best and oldest friend has become one of these people and I’m watching my only sibling in the process of going there. I lost my ex wife and daughter to it years ago.
There are days I feel like the character at the very end of Invasion of the Body Snatchers.
Mike in NC
Them other folks ain’t white!
kay
I said it the last time and I still think it’s true.
IF the Democratic Party is paying for this advice they’re getting robbed.
Find candidates. Put money into state races. Teach people voter protection and hire 22 year old oganizers who will know more by the time they’re 25 about the places they organize than any of these consultants.
Stop putting whole groups of people in a box and on a shelf. There’s no such thing as a soccer mom or a NASCAR dad. People are more complicated than that. This country is more complicated than that
I feel as if they’re working against me.
Napoleon
@kay:
Jesus, Kay, they aren’t. Have you spent even 10 seconds reading what Ruy T. wrote and who he is and who he writes for? Did you bother to read any of the criticisms of Edsal?
THE DEMOCRATS AREN”T PAYING FOR RUY T’s OPINION ON SUBJECTS HE HAS BEEN WRITING ABOUT FOR SEVERAL DECADES.
http://www.amazon.com/Emerging-Democratic-Majority-John-Judis/dp/0743254783/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1322919927&sr=8-1
On top of it, if you had bothered to read anything Ruy T. had written, he did not write what Edsal characterizes as his finding.
Off to shopping – I can stand to read more post from people who are still writing the same ill informed stuff they were writing midweek about a non-story.
Jennifer
Never underestimate spite voting. I don’t need a sociologist to tell me why a lot of these folks vote against their own self-interest – it boils down to nothing more than old-fashioned spite. “I’ll show those liberals/pointed-headed intellectuals.” There’s a significant block of American voters who would vote in favor of putting themselves in a refrigerator box under an overpass, roasting sparrows on a stick, if only they were promised that the guy in the next box over will have no sparrows. This can’t come as a surprise to anyone – these folks are the first baying hounds out of the gate whenever it looks like there might be an opportunity to cut some other average worker’s pay; the usual excuse is “well, I don’t get good benefits, so why should THEY?”
And while some of it is tied up with racism, that’s not the main driving force. The main factor is resentment – resentment towards the type of people they interact with each day who are somewhat better off than they are, rather than the people who keep them poor. They don’t attack the Richie Richs because those are the people they aspire to be.
jrg
If there’s no way working class whites are going to vote majority Democratic (or even within 12% of parity), why should the Dems cater their election strategy towards them?
These tools need to wrap their heads around the fact that if they’re voting based on impossible conspiracy theories and proposed electric border fences, no one is going to go out of their way to look out for their best interests.
In other words, if you don’t have the good sense to look out for yourself, and you consistently refuse to vote for the party that will, don’t whine when it won’t bend over backwards to meet imbecilic demands. The Dems don’t play working class whites for suckers nearly as often as the GOP does. Smart working class whites know this… They’re just out-numbered by the dumbasses.
Tuffy
Young Bbucks, Mistermix. Every Republican white male I know that isn’t a culture warrior/religious is 100% about the Young Bucks (of course they deny the racial tinge up and down, they hate poor moochers of ALL races they claim). Newt is ABSOLUTELY tapped into the market when he said just this week that food stamps is a credit card you can use to get free vacations to Hawaii.
kay
Republicans hold more statehouses than they have since 1928.
Although Democrats have spent millions of dollars hiring national consultants who don’t give a shit about that, people care about it because state law affects them immediately.
I guess the objective is to continue to pretend that we can be a national Party without looking at state and regional differences, or state law.
It’s not one giant USA.
What a great time to release this study!
Just as we’re working to hold our voters and take some of theirs in the rustbelt.
Thanks, consultancy! Can I pay you for any more stupid shit?
I hate being a Democrat.
If Ralph Nader wasn’t such an ass I’d go over there.
GregB
You liebruls know you are in trouble. Newt is going great guns by appealing to all of those Hispanic voters by calling them all dead beats and promising to put their children into indentured servitude.
Then the coup de grace will be the co-opting of all of the African-American voters when Newt cozies up to Donald Trump because he has a good relationship with The Blacks. He’ll tell them who to vote for and then it will be curtains for Obama.
agrippa
@kay:
I agree.
Elizabelle
Not just the males. That nice David Brooks on NPR told us yesterday Obama is giving up on the whole white working class.
I thought, where does he get those ideas? Silly me.
Transcript:
“Rightly” given up, yet.
http://www.npr.org/2011/12/02/143062987/week-in-politics-economy-gop-primary-race
kay
Napoleon, how hard is it to figure out that this was going to be characterized this way?
It fits every stereotype of liberals, as ‘using’ working class voters to ‘hold down margins’.
I know Edsal lied about it. How does that matter to me?
How does this help one single real person, other than pundits and newspaper writers?
Is it social commentary? What’s the point?
Linda Featheringill
@bin Lurkin’: #13
I can sympathize. I sprang from the same genetic pool as many members of the Republican audiences. I was raised in it and schooled in it. I can hear the dog whistles.
But I no longer answer the whistles. I am free to make my own decisions. And I can support whomever I damn well please.
Fuggum.
Cat Lady
There are just lots of people who are natural serfs, common folk who are the salt of the earth. You know, morons.
Linda Featheringill
@kay: #15
Good point.
schrodinger's cat
What are the state by state breakups. I know of quite a few guys who would fall under this descriptor who were staunch Democrats but this was in Maine and New York (some examples, a machinist in the Physics Dept, my ex landlord, my old neighbor who was a roofer, young guy about 25 and a big Obama supporter.)
DougJ
I think this is exactly right.
DougJ
@schrodinger’s cat:
The northeast doesn’t count.
schrodinger's cat
@Linda Featheringill: Seconded, I had a pro-life Catholic friend in school and she did not agree with the Democrats on their stance on abortion but was a proud Democrat in spite of that.
doofus
@kay: The cultural elephant in the room has been white backlash for 40 years now. There is exactly nothing new about this. This is just the continuation of the Clinton “white working class” attack from the 2008 primaries. Expect this club to be used early and often from all those elements of the pundit class and professional Democratic party that would thrive with a Republican White House.
schrodinger's cat
@DougJ: Why not? because they are not “real Americans”?
Nathaniel
Because the Northeast doesn’t have the cultural bullshit that drives “Real Americans.” We got our own bullshit, but its not stuff the Republicans are cultivating right now.
Which is why when the MSM refers to “working class whites” they mean men from below the mason dixon line.
kay
And, no Napoleon, I’m not reading the defense of the piece and then the rebuttal to the piece and then David Brooks lying about the piece and then James Carville’s one liner rejoinder to the piece.
The reality is that the candidate is Barack Obama and WE KNOW that there is a cottage industry that devote every waking moment to talking about his race and the working class voters that they don’t know shit about.
He’s going to have to work to rebut this, and that’s not helping, that’s hurting.
jrg
Quick. Somebody call the marketing department of the Kellogg school of management! The entire notion of demographics has been disproven!
Ben Cisco
@kay:
Yes, it is.
__
And the Ferengi media machine will do ANYTHING to keep the word from getting out, which is why the Nice Polite Republicans and David Freaking Brooks do this dance. The Narrative, it must be followed; all is subservient to The Narrative. And just like the beat to the latest nuisance pop song, The Narrative is going to get pounded right into the ground.
__
Of course, I’m just laying out the problem without a viable solution. One thing that would help is if word could be gotten out that Brooks, Stretch Gregory, Tapper, Scheiffer, Georgie Snuffleupagus – hell, pretty much anyone in the media proper – are singing a siren song.
Michael
@kay: I’m not sure it matters if it “helps” or “hurts” in the broad sense if what we are actually talking about is some sort of prediction about or prescription for how the Presidential campaign will actually behave.
I was staff on the 2008 campaign and I can tell you this is not how we operated at all and I highly doubt it’s how they’ll operate in 2012. As for this:
Setting aside the infamous 27%, that other 20-30% that are in play for the Republicans often vote against their economic interest because nobody has done a good enough job at focusing them on that. It’s hard work. These people aren’t idiots (generally), they’re perfectly capable of thinking through these things, but Republicans are really good about distracting them with abortion, gay marriage, etc. An anecdote:
I worked in northern New Mexico, where water rights are a huge local issue. When I went knocking door-to-door once, I came upon one of the famed white working class voters, a women in her early 50s. She nearly kicked me off her property, would never vote Obama because she can’t support a pro-choice candidate, I shouldn’t come back either, etc. I asked her if her husband was home because he was on my list too, and she said he probably wouldn’t want to talk either but he might, but he wasn’t home – he was out in the fields. I asked if they were farmers, she said yes, started talking about how its not a great time to be a small farmer in New Mexico. I prompted her on the water rights issue, and she talked for 10 minutes about it. I asked her if they were involved locally about the issue. She talked for another 5 or so minutes about that. All I did was listen to her get it off her chest, show her some understanding, and redirect her focus from abortion to an issue more immediate to her self-interest.
Before I left, she went through my list of names with me to tell me who would be home, who moved, how to find them (our maps were not great in the rural areas), was really nice, and said she’d reconsider about Obama.
That’s how you win over those voters. It’s hard work. But, luckily, Obama and Plouffe know how to build a campaign that will outwork every other one out there. They focus on this stuff heavily, they know how to train people to do this.
You can save yourself a lot of stress by forgetting about this article. It seems to be completely disconnected from the way campaigns actually work. Do they do some targeting based on demographics? Sure, of course, you have to be efficient. But they’re not limiting themselves to 52% of the electorate and trying to win every single one of those votes…they’re focusing on 70% of the electorate and trying to win over 70% of those votes. And nearly 2/3rds of them are already basically in their column….
Trurl
No “tribalism” here. No, sir.
Repeatedly voting for a party that betrays your interests? That’s something that only those Awful Others do.
Tyro
Stop putting whole groups of people in a box and on a shelf. There’s no such thing as a soccer mom or a NASCAR dad. People are more complicated than that. This country is more complicated than that
One of the things that bugs me about my fellow liberals is that it’s hard to have a discussion because it keeps getting interrupted by, “but I am such a unique and previous snowflake that neither I nor anyone else can be contained by these kinds of labels.”
kay
And I’m not quarreling with you, mistermix.
I knew Fox was going to pick it up and I knew David Brooks was going to use it to beat liberals over the head.
If this didn’t”t trigger the Favorite Subject, they would make something up.
I think it’s counterproductive. I eagerly await the piece by a conservative wherein they Muse on ‘holding down margins’ in blue states
schrodinger's cat
@DougJ: One of the reasons the roofer guy in my story was pro-Obama was because of the Health Care Reform, that he could continue being on his parent’s insurance, and his mother was a school teacher. The MSM dumbs down the whole country. It is like they think we are all as lazy and stupid as they have become.
Frank
I could not count the number of workingmens vehicles I’ve seen over the years that have a pro-union sticker on one side and a bunper sticker endorsing the latest Republican running for office on the other. I’m sure much of it is due to racism, though maybe it’s finally occuring to them that Republicans view unions the same way they view “minorities”.
Recently I overheard a cop bemoaning how the Democrats are cutting his benefits here in Massachusetts, then asked “aren’t they supposed to be the ‘workers party’?” This from a member of the same police union that makes a big show of endorsing every Republican candidate. Yet he expects the Dems to go out of their way to help him.
schrodinger's cat
@kay: I think you have a point and if the media was truly liberal or at the very least impartial, they would also have stories about why the Republicans are losing in the North East and doing so poorly with the minorities.
jrg
@Trurl: OK, Sparky. Can you cite an example of legislation supported by a majority of Democrats that works against the best interest of a majority of Democrats?
kay
Tyro, yeah, that’s what I’m doing, I’m asserting my ‘specialness’
Except that isn’t what I said.
What I said was Democrats and labor are busting ass to reach these voters in Wisconsin and Ohio and this isn’t helping.
But carry on. It’s crucial we speak exclusively in the abstract, because we’re scientists, or something.
Nathaniel
@jrg: NAFTA.
mistermix
I scheduled this post last night because I was busy this AM, so I didn’t get a chance to get into the comments until now.
@Napoleon: Steve B’s post, that I linked to, has a big excerpt from Chait’s article, which I pretty much agree with btw. So reading comprehension, try it.
@kay: You’re right, Republicans have been carefully locking up the state legislatures as part of their national strategy, which includes a heaping helping of “local rule” anti-federalism in service of the real goal: to bust state unions and control redistricting so they can hold the House. I don’t know about a 50 state strategy, but we need better ground game everywhere that’s even marginally winnable.
jrg
@Nathaniel: That’s debatable. Free trade works both ways. I work for a company that exports.
pluege
that many people are manifestly too stupid to appeal to rationally was obvious when unionized, working class Americans feel for reagan’s marlboro man BS, but who did everything in his power to kill their livelihood, the future of their children and the nation, and whose real legacy is the disastrous trajectory he put the nation on leading to today.
It would nice if democrats started realizing this.
kay
Mistermix, Republicans have been locking down state law for 30 years.
Meanwhile, we’ve been poring over demographics and ignoring actual events.
We hold ground on state law. That’s all we do. We undo what they do.
We’re losing.
How does this help someone like Sherrod Brown?
He can’t win, now, today, with this theory.
Is he thrilled to have to discuss this? Now? In Ohio?
RalfW
@kay:
This. This. This.
The GOP took on that project 30 years ago, and we’re seeing the result ripple through the culture (tidal wave, in many places…).
There is a huge infrastructure to move rightwingers from county boards to state legislatures and on up. There are such things among Dems, but not at the same scale as far as I know.
Camp Wellstone is a fantastic project. We need 49 more of that.
handsmile
@Michael: (#38)
Terrific, fine-grained post. Thanks!
It illuminates a point emphasized by Corey Robin, author of “The Reactionary Mind” (the book next slated for discussion by the BJ Book Club) during a public discussion with Chris Hayes at CUNY in October. In response to the question, “What’s wrong with Kansas?”, Robin responded, “Nothing is wrong with Kansas. People have multiple interests.”
Recognizing that fact and developing local strategy/tactics to address it effectively is, as you in fact understate, “hard work.” And not nearly as remunerative as political pundits concocting pop sociological fables and labels to amuse their fellow courtiers.
Nathaniel
@jrg: Free trade as it currently works is American workers competing with with Chinese/Indian/Mexican workers for half/quarter/tenth the pay. Then American corps pocket the difference.
That’s shafting a majority of Democrats.
Trurl
Omnes Omnibus
@handsmile: @Trurl: What was the House vote?
kay
Right, mistermix, but we already know the GOP at the state level has nothing to do with ‘anti-federalism’ but is instead what they do each and every time they lose the WH.
And it works. Every time.
And Democrats freak out, win two races, which is not ‘winning’ but is instead holding onto wins from 30 years ago, and then we go back to our demographic studies, where it’s s safe and comfy and we don’t have to deal with people who are different than we are.
Jennifer
I sometimes feel invisible here.
I say, again, that resentment and spite drive the voting of a lot of middle and lower class whites. I could give you a lot of examples; you undoubtedly could supply your own, but I’ll just offer up one:
Several years ago I had a conversation with a guy who owns a realty company and one of his agents. This was around the time of the automaker bailouts, and Mr. Republican real estate company owner was firmly against it, because according to him, the autoworkers make too much money. I broke it down for him and proved that the average autoworker was making $50 – $60K, including benefits, and that he must know that this isn’t a king’s ransom; it’s enough for a couple to live on comfortably but a family with even one child would have to count their pennies to live on this amount while still being able to afford a home and education for that child. At this point his agent spoke up, complaining about how when she worked at the local box factory, the pay was only $8.00 per hour, and there was “just no way” that an autoworker was worth $20 per hour more. I asked, “really? You were producing a product that sells at a unit cost of $.50; they’re producing a product that sells at a per-unit cost of $25,000 or more, and which probably requires more skill to produce. And if you still worked at the box factory, and the autoworkers’ wages were cut to $8.00 an hour, how would that help you? Would you get a raise as a result?” She didn’t like that answer but really couldn’t formulate a rebuttal to it. But the company owner piped up again, reiterating how autoworkers were overpaid. I asked him, “just out of curiosity, how many homes have you sold to people who work at the box factory?” As it turned out, none. “Why do you think that is?” Well, they don’t make enough money to be able to afford a house. “So then, why do you support making even more people unable to buy a home? How will that benefit you?” Well, it won’t. But instead of admitting he’s a stupid shithead motivated by resentment rather than self-interest, he comes back with some bullshit about being more concerned about “the good of the country rather than just himself.” I asked, “do you really think the country will be better off if everyone is making only $8 per hour? That won’t just wreck YOUR business; it will hurt a lot of other businesses as well; some will close as a result and even more people will be unemployed while those who still have jobs will have less money to spend with all the businesses that remain open, including yours. So what do you really hope to accomplish?” He didn’t have an answer for this. But I guarantee he hot-footed it to the polls in 2010 to vote for people who promised to wreck his business – because it would hurt other people more than it would hurt him.
These people can’t be reasoned with. Again, they will happily vote to make themselves homeless as long as they are promised the other guy will also be starving.
Schlemizel
Total dumb fuck BIL was over bit ago. Whined about needing hand surgery to repair damage done by years of work but he would lose his job if he took the time off of work. Then he whined about the company bringing in temps (business is picking up) because they can pay them less & no benefits (he also noted that they were several shades darker than he is). My sister said “It sounds like you guys need to form a union”
He insists that unions are what is destroying America.
There is no way we can ever reach someone this stupid, this fucked up and this cemented into the wingnut pipeline/
kay
And why is anecdotal single voter ‘evidence’ valid to ‘prove’ this theory but not valid to rebut it or say it’s not helpful?
I thought this was abstract, hard-headed science, and things like state results or local differences were not to be considered?
Joel
@SiubhanDuinne: The picture is a bit condescending, actually. Which is why that approach would fail (and has failed).
Davis X. Machina
@Nathaniel:
Wake me up when it’s shifting a majority of independents and ‘independents’.
handsmile
@Omnes Omnibus:
?? I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. Nor do I see any way in which my comment (#53) is related to trurl’s comments (#39, #55). Explain?
RalfW
@Jennifer: I tend to think there is a significant lack of empathy. I’m not sure what the deal is, but I see it a lot. People with a “conservative” mind-frame seem not to be able to identify with the possibility that they’d ever be – or even be related to – people living in the lower rungs of society.
Even the dipshit in your example who used to work in the box factory can’t imagine being laid off from real estate and having to make lattes for $7/hr + tips. They just can’t imagine bad luck or hard times falling on them.
So it must be sloth/bad genes/other people’s fault that bad things happen.
And if they do fall a few rungs, then it’s condescending, point-headed liberals that screwed up their cushy deal.
The abomination known as prosperity gospel is a clear indication that the preacher-grifter industry has figured out that cultural trend.
ETA: Yes, they have relatives who are not prosperous. But they made bad choices, dontcha know?
It’s never the overlords shafting their kin or friends. No, it’s the greedy unions, or gubmit, or taxes that are the problem. Man, what a worldview.
Omnes Omnibus
@handsmile: Accidental. I was about to reply to something you had said above when I felt the need to respond to trurl; I must have failed to delete your info. My apologies.
kay
Ralf, thanks for the Wellstone link.
Here’s what I would submit. One can’t claim a belief in what we’ll call ‘Wellstonian” populism or activism without actually promoting that.
We can’t have both things.
We have to do these things.
Not all of us, and not anyone who just isn’t good at it or whatever, but we can’t say we want a more populist Democratic Party in many of these states WHILE saying we won’t take our argument to ‘these people’
Why not? Why don’t we have to make our argument?
Are we just special that way? Are they supposed to pick it from the ether?
Dustin
@Joel: As an actual campaign, yeah it’ll fail because people don’t like to be told that they’re ignorant. That doesn’t make it’s message any less true.
Hillary Rettig
@Shlemizal 59
“My sister said “It sounds like you guys need to form a union” He insists that unions are what is destroying America.”
I’ve got a relative like that, too.
I don’t think he’s racist – or at least any more racist than most of us. What he does have is a strong sense of victimization. And it’s true – when he was a little kid he was victimized. But he’s not victimized as an adult, but still acts like it. Amanda Marcotte, I think it was, wrote a great piece about this recently – about how conservatives cry boo-effing-hoo when it’s time to act like adults and pay taxes.
My relative is also smart, but deficient in critical thinking when it comes to politics. He’s in denial, with his needs determining what data he considers and what conclusions he’s willing to draw. And the lack of empathy *and* humility is stunning, considering that he’s made major mistakes in his life. But he’s happy to judge everyone else.
Although kids tend to go their own way and do their own thing, I wouldn’t be surprised if most arch-conservatives spring from authoritarian / abusive / neglectful families, or some other traumatic situation. (It was the WSJ, after all, that lauded the despicable “Tiger Mom.”) They need the authoritarian hierarchy, and they need to feel on top of it to feel safe – and many of them don’t mind earning a buck by bullying or exploiting others (my relative has a bullying job).
In a more evolved era, maybe arch-conservativism itself will be seen as a kind of trauma reaction.
kay
I would also just say that the ’emerging Democratic majority’ is also a shimmering mirage, and while we’re waiting for it they’re putting in tons of state law and training the next generation of scumbag operatives.
But that’s all ‘anecdotal’ which apparently means ‘factual’.
handsmile
@Jennifer: (#58)
No, you’re not invisible. (But believe me I know the feeling.) Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed comment (though more paragraph breaks might help readers).
Many articles on the Guardian web site include a readers’ comment section that features an option to click on a “Recommended?” prompt for each commenter’s remark. Other websites have a similar feature but the Guardian is my personal favorite, e.g.: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/dec/02/global-economy-economics
It is one feature that I certainly wish could be adopted by this blog. If for no other reason than to anonymously acknowledge many fine comments and to affirm people’s efforts.
Hillary Rettig
Actually I will amend my post – I think a lot of authoritarians don’t need or want to feel on top – they crave the protection of what George Lakoff called the “strong parent.”
But they don’t want to feel entirely powerless either, so they crave to find others whom they feel empowered to pick on.
Villago Delenda Est
@Jennifer:
I know this is going to sound cliche, but I’ve got friends who have had that same conversation with co workers. The resentment overrides critical thinking (if it was ever even present) in so many…they don’t think these things through. You give them a long, logically consistent argument that takes them with big signs featuring flashing arrows from point A to point Z, and they still DO NOT GET IT.
They take so many things for granted (the 40 hour work week, time and a half for overtime, minimum wage, legal protections for workers) that they don’t realize, and don’t understand the history, which included people fighting, bleeding, and dying for those very things against determined opposition.
It’s as frustrating as all hell to be forced to attempt to teach these people the ABCs of corporate industrial economics, things that happened over a century ago that should be elemental knowledge for everyone in this society.
Drives me fucking bananas, it does. Can’t build on a foundation that has been neglected for so long.
Emma
@Jennifer: Yes. Exactly.
kay
Benen and everyone else in the world ‘clarifying’ is probably an indication that they think this is bad politics.
‘Clarifying’ is not a great place to be.
eemom
as I’ve mentioned before, I couldn’t believe my eyes recently when my dumbass teatard SIL actually exhibited rational thought in a FB post about the ACA: her two oldest, previously uninsured daughters were able to get back on the family’s plan, and she actually was able to connect the dots to conclude: (1) that maybe the ACA is a good thing and not the second coming of Satan; and (2) Obama deserves some credit for it.
At Thxgiving she went so far as to tell me she would TOTALLY vote Democratic if Hillary was the nominee. For this woman that is a rocket science level breakthrough.
So maybe there’s hope after all.
somsai
When the Dems give up on the white working class they need to just give it up altogether, we’ll look for another party. Thank God Obama doesn’t take advice from this writer or the talking heads that put out these memes.
Some of these comments about us being racist is more than insulting too, no doubt that right there is half the problem. Race is much less of an issue these days, look at how Caine polled in S Carolina.
Good policies help all races, good policies even stretch far and wide across demographics. Half the kids in the country get free or reduced lunch, CHP+ has drastically reduced the number of uninsured kids, last I checked no one asked your race before they let you in at the doctor.
Yup, we aren’t all in for illegal immigrants. too bad. Maybe you upper middle types can clean your own houses or pay a little more for carpentry or landscaping. When are y’all going to stop living a lifestyle based on driving wages to the bottom.
eemom
@handsmile:
Sir. With all due respect, it was the GUARDIAN that published that despicable drek of Naomi Wolf’s…..and a mind-bogglingly arrogant follow up piece that took ZERO responsibility for having lent the dignity of its worthy name to such reekingly unsourced and fact-devoid conspirationist crap, instead adding up the “likes” and “dislikes” of Wolf like a ninth grader playing on FB.
I humbly submit that you — as a fervent supporter of the publication who actually inspired me to add it to my daily reading list — have a bit of ‘splainin to do. : )
Linnaeus
@kay:
I just wanted to second this:
Omnes Omnibus
@eemom: Mistakes were made.
Smiling Mortician
@eemom: Agreed that this seems a step in the right direction. Now if you could only get the SIL to realize that Not-President H. Clinton, while a wonderful person in many respects and quite good at her current job, crashed and burned in her attempt to do health care reform — and that Actually-Is-President B. Obama is the guy who created the HCR that she now recognizes as A Good Thing . . .
Yeah, I know. Baby steps.
catclub
@SiubhanDuinne: add a question mark at the end.
Votes Republican?
kay
Thanks, Linnaues.
I just get so cranky when we’re espousing Wellstone and then winking and nodding and saying “except, we know that’s not true”.
Maybe we’re not espousing Wellstone.
Maybe that’s my problem.
I’m looking forTrue Wellstonianism :)
handsmile
@eemom: (#76)
Ma’am. With all due respect, it was the GUARDIAN that published the febrile rantings of the execrable Grover Norguist on taxation and the supercommittee several days before the Naomi Wolf article.
Several months ago, it was the GUARDIAN that published an acrimonious debate between one of its non-scientist columnists George Monbiot and Dr. Helen Caldicott on the issue of nuclear power safety and public health.
These are the two examples that first come to mind about Guardian editorial decisions that we illuminati may regard as unfortunate or unworthy. I suspect they publish the occasional tripe as compensation for their lack of “funny pages.”
Also too, my shilling on behalf of the Guardian remains sadly voluntary. They continue to return unopened my invoices for services rendered.
(You crack me up. Your mood seems improved from last evening’s doldrums. Hope you enjoy the weekend!)
eyelessgame
@Michael: Great comment, except for one thing, at the very end.
They better not be. 70% of 70% is 49%.
catclub
@Villago Delenda Est: I am sure the heavy emphasis on labor history in schools is the real problem.
Citizen Alan
@kay:
kay, the Democratic Party has essentially abandoned Mississippi completely. We didn’t even bother to field candidates at all for three of the top five state-wide positions. The Dem nominee for governor consisted of an African-American mayor who was unknown outside his home county and who was outspent 4-1. His only competition for the nomination was a white businessman from the Delta whose only qualification was that he was friends with Morgan Freeman. The Repukes took the legislature, probably for the rest of my lifetime, and the Dem I voted for as state senator (by all accounts, a relatively liberal politician who was under consideration by Obama as US Attorney) defected to the GOP one week after the election.
At this point, I am considering registering as a Republican next year simply to have some say in shaping who will win state offices, since no Democratic candidate will be electable for at least the foreseeable future. I know that calling Mississippi hard terrain for the Democratic Party is an understatement, but I still have a hard time not blaming the national party for simply writing off an entire state (and not just one — I’m beginning to think they’re writing off the entire South), particularly since they still write me asking for money every other day.
cckids
@Joel:
Oh, yes. I’m related to quite a few small-town Republicans/Reagan Dems who get fed up with the “stupid people vote Republican” attitude. Because they aren’t stupid, but they aren’t educated, either, and they are mostly a bit defensive about it. My dad is one of them. He grew up in the 40’s, had a learning disability, so no matter how hard he worked (and it was hard), he didn’t do well in school. Never even considered college. But he can take apart & fix anything. He can look at a real-world problem & create a hands-on solution for it. And over the last 20 years, he has been seduced over to the Fox News dark side by the combo of easy answers from the right & a snotty, condescending attitude from too many on the left. (Clinton’s lying about the bj & “it depends on your definition of ‘is'” did not help).
Treating people like they are morons is really no way to win them over.
kay
Michael at 38, thanks for the careful explanation.
I followed Sherrd Brown’s campaign in 06 and now again for ’12 and Banana ’08 and this is a 180 from what they did and what they’re doing. Not said. Did. Are doing.
Which is why I said it’s counterproductive.
But thanks. I always have trouble with these sorts of analysis.
They’re just not my thing, I know it, and I should remember it.
Citizen Alan
@mistermix:
The 50-State Strategy gave me a Democratic Representative in North Mississippi for the first time since I became eligible to vote. Granted, it was Travis Childers, a Blue Dog who voted with the GOP far, far too often, but still, he was a Democrat whose vote handed Nancy Pelosi the Speaker’s gavel.
Then, we traded Howard Dean for Tim Kaine, and Childers was basically written off by the DCCC in 2010. Now, I am represented by the Lich King Alan Nunnelee. Thanks Tim.
karen marie
From what I have learned talking to various white lower middle class white males while out walking my dog is that they are exhausted by all the political drama and, as a result, have bought into the “both sides are equally bad” meme. The Blue Dogs have sufficiently watered down and damaged the Democratic brand that these men believe that the Democratic Party no longer stands for what it used to but is instead run by a bunch of corrupt one-percenters.
It’s really sad.
karen marie
@Napoleon:
I could be wrong (won’t be the first or last time) and I’m too tired to go back and check, but IIRC the original statement about the Obama campaign not going after WMMM came from a group of so-called liberal analysts not associated with the Obama campaign, so the whole thing is doubly ridiculous.
eemom
@handsmile:
thank you for the kind words.
On reflection, I think you are on to something — what most likely motivates The Guardian to prominently feature some of the biggest embarrassments in American political discourse is discreet British amusement at our expense.