This is just the kind of shit I love reading:
The sharpest edges of President Obama’s counterterrorism policy, including the use of drone aircraft to kill suspected terrorists abroad and keeping open the military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, have broad public support, including from the left wing of the Democratic Party.
A new Washington Post-ABC News poll shows that Obama, who campaigned on a pledge to close the brig at Guantanamo Bay and to change national security policies he criticized as inconsistent with U.S. law and values, has little to fear politically for failing to live up to all of those promises.
The survey shows that 70 percent of respondents approve of Obama’s decision to keep open the prison at Guantanamo Bay. . . . The poll shows that 53 percent of self-identified liberal Democrats — and 67 percent of moderate or conservative Democrats — support keeping Guantanamo Bay open, even though it emerged as a symbol of the post-Sept. 11 national security policies of George W. Bush, which many liberals bitterly opposed.
I’d like to see the pre-Obama partisan breakdown, if indeed there was polling done, but the fact that 53% of liberal Democrats support keeping Gitmo open is just very, very depressing. It also shows why the Senate voted almost unanimously to hose Obama when he did try to close Gitmo.
Just depressing.
(via)
DWG
We have met the enemy, and he is us.
Villago Delenda Est
Sorry, but I trust nothing, absolutely nothing, that comes out of the Mouse or Kaplan.
chowkster
Wait, how did Obama fail to close the Gitmo? If I remember correctly, his first executive order was for closing Gitmo. It was the stupid chickenshit congresspeople not wanting the Gitmo prisoners in their districts who prevented Gitmo from being closed.
ruemara
@chowkster: It provides the necessary linkage for the ever purer than thou liberal to show that Obama deliberately did not close Gitmo and that is why we should be voting green. That is why Gitmo is constantly reported on with that error.
w3ski
Gitmo, is an abomination to the laws of the USA !
It IS a STAIN on our national reputation.
I so wish we has an actual Progressieve to run in Obamas’ place.
w3ski
Mark K
the Pravda on the Potomac is a Neo-con/Likud paper. Don’t believe a thing they say about foreign policy.
However, imo the Independent voter pretty much doesn’t give a shit about torture or Guantanamo. Obama voters should’ve figured all this out: that no real changes were coming at the DHS/CIA wing, when he kept Gates as Sec. of Defense. Obama is determined not to be another Jimmy Carter and everything seems to run through that filter. He did follow through on Iraq and we’ll have to get out of Afghanistan, too. Mainly because we can’t afford it.
Hill Dweller
@chowkster: This sort of portrayal has become conventional wisdom. Even Jon Stewart claims Obama doesn’t want to close Gitmo.
Another aspect that shouldn’t be overlooked was Bloomberg undercutting the Justice Dept. when they wanted to try KSM in NY, despite terrorist trials happening there all the time.
4tehlulz
No no, that was a test vote. That doesn’t count.
johnsmith1882
liberals on a bit of a winning streak? never fear, john cole is here! with a _washington post_ poll!
Dave
@chowkster: Exactly. Even that Paragon of Progressiveness, Bernie Sanders, voted to deny funding to close Gitmo.
That debacle rests on the heads of Senate Dems, not the President.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
I love the framing that Obama is keeping Gitmo open because he wants to.
AxelFoley
B-b-b-but Obama had a huge majority in the Senate!
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@w3ski: Elect some liberals to Congress that won’t vote against closing it. If I remember correctly, every Democrat in the Senate voted to keep it open.
Hunter Gathers
We must keep these dirty Muslims from being incarcerated in our SuperMax facilities, because if we do, they will use their super-secret mutant powers to break out and wreak havoc upon the land. Never mind that they don’t possess super-secret mutant powers or that SuperMax prisons are impossible to escape from. That’s beside the point. These brown heathens must be kept from our collective consciousness, and what better place to hide brown people we don’t want to have to deal with than in Cuba. Or, as my wife put it way back when Congress fucked Obama over closing it, ‘this country is populated by spineless pussies, what did you expect?’
James E. Powell
I don’t know that it’s hypocrisy because I don’t know what these same people said pre-Obama. But I do know it’s bad and I hate it.
When does fear and ignorance ever lead to good policy? Do cowards have any moral code?
patrick II
I hate Gitmo, but it would be closed if congress had cooperated at all. Obama is president, not dictator. The republicans have been using their usual vote for failure method. The have voted or threatened to vote against various bills that would have closed Gitmo — and then blame the president for not closing Gitmo.
I was listening to Sean Hannity talking about Obama not keeping his promise and closing Gitmo like he said he would — Obama is a promise breaker. Of course Hannity did not mention the reason Obama didn’t close it was a republican congress — with enough cowardly democrats mixed in — to keep Gitmo open.
Gitmo is an abomination. I am not falling for the republican strategy of keeping it open and blaming Obama. There has been a hue and cry every time he tries to close it and a hue and cry from the same people when he “breaks his promise” I am tired of their shit.
Villago Delenda Est
@Hunter Gathers:
The Muslims will convert our murderers/rapists/career criminals in SuperMaxes into Muslims who will be absolutely indistinguishable from guys who spit tobacco at NASCAR events.
Then we’ll REALLY be in trouble.
Xenos
I hope it is not too hypocritical (or naïf) of me to care a lot less about Gitmo now that Obama is in charge. He did not have the direct power to close it, and the worst abuses seem to have come to an end.
Too many Americans are assholes – not too many to keep Obama from being elected, but enough to limit what he can get done. It is a pretty good ‘get out of
jailmoral responsibility card, and I know he cynically uses it, but what the hell. I can blame him, but there is no point in resenting him.middlewest
Oh boy, a single poll. That’s certainly a big deal.
Does anyone else ever get the feeling that Greenwald is a CIA plant, designed to make civil libertarian opposition to the unrestrained military-security state seem as foolish and unappealing as humanly possible?
General Stuck
American scaredeecats, across the board.
Culture of Truth
Regardless of who you may support, would you say that the more you hear about [ITEM] (the more you like him), or the more you hear about [ITEM] (the less you like him)?
Mitt Romeny
More You Like: 24
Less You Like: 52
Newt Gingrich
More You Like: 19
Less You Like: 60
Amir Khalid
Obama was right when he said having Camp X-Ray open did the US more harm than good. He needed to close it and still does. The White House, as I recall, has said over and over that this remains a policy goal, even after Congress turned the idea down cold. It was Congress’ decision, not Obama’s, to keep it open against all good sense and even the counsel of the military. The Washington Post is wrong to call keeping it open Obama administration policy.
Marc
Denying the poll results is whistling past the graveyard. People perceived as terrorists, or even accused of being terrorists, are widely despised.
People accused of crimes have similar problems. It’s had devastating effects on our criminal justice system.
It may be beneficial for the purity brigade to switch from righteous attacks on Obama The Same As Bush and into public education mode. And it would help a lot to publicize sympathetic cases, rather than “guy who is broadcasting appeals to kill Americans on the radio”.
Oh yea, and it would be nice to give people credit for trying to do unpopular things (like closing Gitmo) instead of attacking them when they get blocked by demagogues.
A boy can dream, right?
andrewsomething
Does “the left wing of the Democratic Party” actively identify as “liberal Democrats?”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw
Culture of Truth
The drawdown of U.S. troops from Afghanistan
Approve: 78
Disapprove: 19
ericblair
@Mark K:
This is crap. If the bin Laden raid had gone south, this would have been exactly the political equivalent of Carter’s failure to rescue the Iranian hostages and I’m pretty sure that didn’t escape his attention. A president scared of being Carter would never have green-lighted the operation.
Citizen Alan
@Hunter Gathers:
This. While I’m disappointed that Obama was unable to get Gitmo closed, I’m not blind to the real issue, which is the fact that far too many Democrats have bought into the ludicrous idea that Al-Qaeda is actually the Legion of Doom. Accordingly, we dare not try suspected Al-Qaeda members in the states for fear of accidentally unleashing Gorilla Grodd or Solomon Grundy on our poor defenseless Homeland.
taylormattd
Um, Obama did not decide to keep the prison open. In fact, he ordered it closed, and Congress deliberately and nearly unanimously removed the funds required to close it.
So what the fuck is this survey question?
Martin
@chowkster: Not only that, but they blocked funding to even transfer prisoners to the US for trial in 2011 and are going to block it again for 2012. Half the prisoners there are cleared for release from Gitmo, but there’s no funding to actually do it and there’s language in the defense bill prohibiting the WH from using any funds at all from any source to transfer those prisoners.
I just don’t understand that all. Even the generals are worried that we’re never going to get out from the shadow of this if we keep avoiding solving the problem.
Rawk Chawk
The Obama Can Do No Wrong crowd on this blog is all the evidence you need to see why O gets away with carrying on the policies of the Special Needs Bush Boy.
As long as O does it, no matter what it is, it’s cool.
rea
70 percent of respondents approve of Obama’s decision to keep open the prison at Guantanamo Bay
Well, I certainly approve, given that it would be f***ing unconstituional to close it after Congress voted to keep it open.
Culture of Truth
Do you agree with the decision of Washington Post to publish inaccurate bullshit?
Strongly Agree
Somewhat Agree
Somewhat Disagree
Strongly Disagree
taylormattd
I would also note that I have zero clue who the effing people that answered questions are. None.
For some reason, I highly doubt that the 53% of “self-identified liberal Democrats” are largely composed of left wing bloggers who are upset Gitmo isn’t closed.
So it’s unclear to me how you get “hypocrites” out of that poll.
taylormattd
@Rawk Chawk: Post firebagger bait, get firebagger morons trolling.
Villago Delenda Est
@taylormattd:
This is why I trust NOTHING that is vomited forth from the Mouse or Kaplan.
They are without the slightest hint of integrity whatsoever.
The Moar You Know
@Amir Khalid: Congress won’t do it and that is the end of the matter. Sucks. I agree with you that pinning that failure on him is merely a piss-poor attempt at a divide-and-conquer strategy to peel the far left from Dems and ensure a repeat of 2000.
terraformer
This morning on NPR I heard about the kerfluffle in England about whether suspected terrorists can be detained indefinitely.
I thought to myself, “umm, they’re SUSPECTS, so unless there is a charge, then, umm, NO.”
But then I think to myself, we have ombudspersons asking whether newspapers should report if something is a lie, and I realize that reality is leaving me, not that I’m leaving reality.
taylormattd
@Villago Delenda Est: Amen.
But apparently, this stupid poll gives Cole an opportunity to sista souljah the Obots around here and keep up cred with St. Greenwald or something.
gwangung
I think people are missing the point here.
The point isn’t Obama is a failure for failing to close Gitmo or using drones or what have you.
The point is that a majority of people APPROVE of keeping Gitmo open and using drones.
Folks shouldn’t get into denial over this. Obama’s not pushing to close Gitmo or to eschew the use of drones because a) his Democratic allies won’t support him on it, and b) his BASE won’t support him on it. Given that, why should he continue pushing?
(And remember…we and other progressives are NOT the sole components of his base).
Rawk Chawk
@Marc:
Just a thought, but isn’t educating the public on these matters sort of an administration job/function? I have a job already, thanks.
4tehlulz
@Rawk Chawk: 0/10
Schlemizel
This can’t be right. If it is than Nader had a point when he said there was no difference between the Dems & the GOP. If that is true I have lost the will to live.
I’d like to see more of the work that generated those numbers.
Citizen Alan
@ericblair:
Or to put that another way: if the Iranian hostage rescue had been a complete success, Jimmy Carter would have curb-stomped Reagan and the world would be a vastly better place today. For one thing, Potter Stewart would have been replaced by someone to his left rather than someone to his right. For another, we’d have actually gotten some semblance of a decent energy policy, instead of the spectacle of that asshole Reagan literally throwing away $30,000 worth of solar panels that had been mounted on the White House roof because SHUT UP!
Rawk Chawk
@taylormattd:
Perhaps, just perhaps, John was trolling Obots. You’re all here en mass as per usual. Gotta shut down any dissension early and often, dontchya know?
FormerSwingVoter
I’m pro-drones and anti-Gitmo, but I’m kind of a weird bird. In any sane world, I should be the rightmost pole of political discussion, telling people that the tax rate for millionaires shouldn’t go above 70% and that sometimes war is necessary and so on. I’m really not very liberal in most meaningful views of the word.
Oddly enough, though, when applying my beliefs that “information should be used to make decisions” and “people who aren’t me also count as people” to the political landscape, that places me not just on the liberal side of American politics, but practically the far left.
LorenzoStDuBois
And once again we come to the logical flaw that must be ignored by Dems:
1) The President is close to powerless if the Congress opposes him.*
2) The most important cause to effect liberal change is to re-elect Obama.
Shh… don’t bring up the contradiction.
*Let’s not forget that the Dems, for a very awkward month, were in the uncomfortable position of having a filibuster-proof majority, during which time they were having a hard time pretending they were liberals, when, um, they couldn’t hide behind the whole filibuster excuse. What a relief it was for them, and for their defenders, when old Scott Brown came to the rescue. But no matter, maybe THIS TIME we have to elect ONE HUNDRED democratic senators and then we will stop murdering foreigners by the score, destroying countries, and plunging Americans into poverty. Repubs are the crazy with the bazooka, Dems are the sniper with the ice in his veins. Who is more dangerous is picking nits. At least when a Repub is on office, people tend to oppose killing.
Rawk Chawk
@gwangung:
You really think most of the Bots who post obsessively here are “progressives,” rather than Obama loyalists?
lol
dmbeaster
When you look at the inability to get Gitmo closed or try terrorists in the US, due to Congressional behavior, imagine what it would have been like to pursue criminal actions for torture by the Bush administration.
I strongly believe that we should prosecute those criminals, and that the lack of prosecution is part of a long pattern of coddling Republican criminality going back to Iran-Contra (though they tried there, and what did that get them? And also, Democrats get there share of blame for similar episodes in WWI and WWII). But I seriously doubt that the effort would have been successful, and would have created real political problems.
God I hate that aspect of our culture – when the going gets tough, the leadership pisses its pants and throws out all values in order to “protect” us.
Rawk Chawk
@dmbeaster:
But he tried soooooooooooooooooo haaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrddddd…
gwangung
@Rawk Chawk: Tiresome. You laugh at your own bad jokes.
Svensker
@patrick II:
ALL the Dems voted against it, including St. Feingold of the Really Truly Liberal Heart.
Bastards.
AxelFoley
@Rawk Chawk:
Oh, STFU, douchebag.
Marc
@Rawk Chawk:
No. Look at the death penalty. Public support for the death penalty was overwhelming, and minds have been changed. It wasn’t a white knight like the president. It was people like the Innocence Project showing that we were killing people who hadn’t done what they were convicted of doing.
We need a cultural change on torture and civil liberties, including those of people accused of ordinary crimes. And it won’t happen by magic with a president waving a wand.
Mino
Why the hell would anyone ding Obama for keeping Gitmo open?? He’s not the one who’s keeping it open.
That does not mean you approve of GITMO.
Marc
@Rawk Chawk:
I know that an awful lot of online Obama critics are fringe Naderites, right-wingers pretending to be liberals, or people who care more about posturing than actually getting anything done.
Rawk Chawk
@AxelFoley:
THIS is the rallying cry of the proud and embarrassed Obot.
gwangung
@Marc:
Grassroots efforts, from the bottom up. Not top down, messiah-leadership. (Which, by the way, I don’t take Nader seriously—his efforts was aimed more toward himself and his ego as opposed to building a firm foundation with grassroots efforts and a local presence of other elected officials).
And Saul Alinksy really DOES apply here. His RULES FOR RADICALS emphasized putting agency in the hands of individuals and working within the system.
dmbeaster
@Rawk Chawk: Well, I do know that the firebaggers (such as yourself) who never pass up an opportunity to trash Obama are certainly not progressives.
Elizabelle
Obama’s just ahead of the curve on this issue.
Eventually, it will be closed.
But the public is not there yet (or at least the public that answered this poll), and Obama’s got lots already on his plate.
Mark K
ericblair/georgeorwell. I think Obama has done a much better job than Carter (voted for both and unlike Carter, think Obama deserves to and will be re-elected) on including everyone to achieve his goals including getting Bin Laden. I used to sell condos in Destin, Fl. with the guy who ran the complete failure of the Iranian hostage rescue. The guy was the biggest asshole I’ve ever known and imo, Obama would have never let this guy run a garage sale. Both decisions took political courage. Never said Obama didn’t have balls.
Carter, imo is the greatest exPOTUS ever and a great man. I just think Obama is a lot smarter politically which is exactly what this country needs. A Republicon POTUS in 2012 would be an unfixable disaster for the USA.
Rawk Chawk
@Marc:
Always with the strawmen. No one asked for magic wands. But many of us asked for courage of conviction, arm twisting, and other signs of life from the O administration regarding a progressive view of national security issues, which are not forthcoming…cause you know, it’s my fault cause I have more influence over the closing of Gitmo than does the president.
Rawk Chawk
@Marc:
HOW, exactly, do you know that, other than by the use of your magical Obot super sensory perception?
Brachiator
@Rawk Chawk:
People who are still motivated by fear don’t take to education too well.
@Rawk Chawk:
I think that most progressives are infantile fools. What’s your point?
gwangung
This is internally inconsistent.
Just trolling, dude.
Rawk Chawk
@dmbeaster:
Is Cole, the author of this post, also a Firebagger? That ancient trope is sooooo lame, especially in my case: I almost NEVER go to the Place of Bags Which Are Aflame.
So you would agree, then, that support of Obama’s political career is the key trait in your definition of a “progressive?”
Rawk Chawk
@Elizabelle:
giggle. So cute.
Yeah, I saw how busy he was yesterday, when showing grade school kids around the white house.
patrick II
I suppose this has occurred to everyone here but me. But it seems that the national defenses we have erected against terrorism also works well against populism. The police were awfully efficient at stifling OWS when they finally decided to. And, according to a story in the NYTimes, they are going through reporter’s emails and twitters as a follow up.
It’s a good think MLK isn’t trying his shit today, he might end up an untried enemy of the state and be living in Gitmo instead of having a statue erected to him on the mall.
Lol
@50: Not all the Democrats. I think 8 or 9 voted to close it, including at least Sheldon Whitehouse.
Rawk Chawk
@Brachiator:
Good to know when assessing your comments.
sharl
TBogg once described Rawk Chawk’s home planet:
Unfortunately for us USA!USA!ers, TBogg ends with some cold reality:
Now I haz sad. Take me home wit u, Rawk Chawk!
Rawk Chawk
@gwangung:
How so?
I know. Why do you keep doing that?
Marc
@Rawk Chawk:
it’s a problem when someone attacks everything that Obama does, and isn’t willing to place blame on others when its warranted.
Reflexive hatred of Obama is not a progressive trait, or at any rate a desirable one.
Defending someone against unfair attacks is not the same as blind loyalty.
Calling people cultists and robots is a pretty sure sign of someone not interested in actual dialog.
NobodySpecial
Gitmo being open is a direct result of the 24/7 Terror Alert with the additional media blowup of Al Qaeda into a combination of Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia with the weaponry of the aliens in Independence Day.
However….
Congress can certainly order Gitmo to remain open. Does anything stop Obama from emptying it?
Chris
@FormerSwingVoter:
Yeah, I feel you. Friends rate me in the “Truman Democrat” camp, which is pretty close to the truth.
It just doesn’t feel that radical to believe in an economic system that rewards people for their hard work, a foreign policy that balances American values and American self-interest, and a system that gives equal rights to all even if the assholes who think they’re entitled to more than that thinks it’s stepping on their toes. In a rational world, it wouldn’t be. But in this political system, it makes us borderline Maoist.
Cat Lady
Progressive Better wants daddy to fix everything with a good old fashioned arm twisting and some bullying from the pulpit, and to tell those mean old Senators to stop hurting their fee fees because they’re so so pure of heart or they will cut themselves and run off with a bad boy, or worse stay home and SULK REALLY HARD because that will show him.
Seriously dude, GFY. Go work to elect better Congresspeople, or STFU.
burnspbesq
@Rawk Chawk:
You must be new around here. Obama regularly gets called when he screws up. However, we understand that Obama is President, not Dictator, and we know the difference between Obama screwing up and Congress screwing up.
If you can’t understand that distinction, you’re an idiot.
P.S. Bill Self can’t coach for shit.
Svensker
@NobodySpecial:
Yes. Congress specifically denied funds to be used to move any prisoners out of Gitmo.
Brachiator
@Rawk Chawk: RE: I think that most progressives are infantile fools.
Back at ya, especially given your comments in this thread.
Rawk Chawk
@Cat Lady:
More awesome recruiting talk from the O-Trolls. You might want to tell the author of this post, your dearest John, to GFY too.
burnspbesq
I’m still waiting for the next outbreak of Congressional bed-wetting, when they get wind of the fact that we’re getting ready to repatriate all the non-Afghan prisioners at Bagram, in praparation for turning it over to the Afghans.
Rawk Chawk
@burnspbesq:
Ah…now I KNOW you’re delusional. I mean, I thought that to be the case from your comments, but this confirms it.
Allan
@Rawk Chawk: Exactly how are you being “shut down”?
burnspbesq
@Rawk Chawk:
If y’all can’t find Tyler Thornton and close out on him with the game on the line, your coach can’t coach for shit. It really is that simple.
Tyler Thornton beat you. Suck on that.
taylormattd
@NobodySpecial:
Yes, Congress specifically eliminated the funds to do this.
FlipYrWhig
The poll mostly suggests that the majority of self-avowed liberal Democrats don’t particularly care about the suite of “civil libertarian” issues — which is why it’s bullshit every time those are treated as being vital to “the base.” The civil libertarian critique of Obama is huge and vocal in the blogosphere, but it doesn’t have a foothold in the broader public. Whether you like the policy or not, you have to take into account how many people are standing shoulder to shoulder with you on it. And, as with the critique that health care reform wasn’t ambitious enough, or that Obama is in general not liberal enough, these are not widespread views and don’t need to be treated as so central to Obama’s electoral fortunes.
Mnemosyne
@Rawk Chawk:
Ah, yes, I remember this meme: if Obama does the exact same PR things that every other president has done, he’s a lazy … bastard who should be working harder.
Are you sure you’re not Special Timmeh, back to complain that Obama called the WNBA champions to congratulate them when he should have been doing important things?
Allan
I agree, John. It’s very depressing that the Potomac’s newspaper of record is allowed to pretend that keeping Gitmo open was President Obama’s decision. How can they just lie like that?
TooManyJens
@Rawk Chawk:
Encouraging achievement in science — what a loser.
FlipYrWhig
@Mnemosyne: I thought the voice sounded familiar…
burnspbesq
An interesting perspective on what it takes to let people out of detention.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/feb/06/abu-qatada-release-home-office-fury
Rawk Chawk
@burnspbesq:
Yeah, you’re right. Self sucks.
That’s why in his eight complete seasons at Kansas his record is 255–51, he’s been to the Sweet Sixteen five times, the Elite Eight four times, has won a National Championship, and has won seven Big 12 Regular Season Championships.
If only YOUR coach sucked so badly…
fasteddie9318
Shouldn’t the take-away from this post be that 53-fucking-percent of self-described “liberals” actually support keeping that goddamn gulag open, rather than whatever COLE IS AN OBOT/COLE IS A LIBERTARIAN TOOL shit-flinging spat people are turning it into? I also find it pretty fucking depressing that a majority of people who describe themselves as liberal are either lying to themselves or have managed to define “liberal” down like this. Yes, the Post totally worded the whole thing wrong and Cole could have pointed that out, but that’s really secondary, isn’t it?
Rawk Chawk
@fasteddie9318:
Yes. I thought that WAS the take-away…which is depressing. Which means a lot of so called liberals/progressives will support Bush policies as long as a Dem is executing them.
But the REASONS why it remains open in the first place are surely up for discussion…
Allan
@fasteddie9318: Actually, without reviewing the exact wording of the polling questions, the order in which questions were asked, etc., those numbers are not especially revealing of anything in particular. It sounds as if everything was focused on how the respondents feel about Obama’s role in foreign policy rather than on the policies themselves.
fasteddie9318
@burnspbesq: If Abu Qatada has been so heavily involved in terrorist activity in the UK, and I’m not arguing that he hasn’t been, one wonders why they are so hell-bent on deporting him rather than trying him themselves.
FlipYrWhig
@fasteddie9318: It goes to the heart of what “liberal” means, and its connectedness to “civil libertarian” issues. IMHO those two are not necessarily linked. People who own up to being “liberal” aren’t thinking of their views on due process for suspected terrorists when they claim the tag. They’re thinking about equal rights for minorities, a strong social-welfare safety net, and open-mindedness on sex, drugs, and religion. Extending those views to include fair treatment for terror suspects doesn’t happen automatically for all “liberals.” (And there probably is an element of wanting to defend ‘Obama’s policy’ whenever it’s described as such, too, due to tribal, partisan, and personal loyalty.)
fasteddie9318
@Allan:
They’re reflective of the fact that 53% of self-described liberals who were interviewed in that poll were asked their opinion of keeping Stalag G open and said “I like it.” If their opinions about Guantanamo Fucking Bay Prisoner Camp are so malleable as to be affected by the particular wording of a particular question, and/or the particular order of a particular survey, and/or their overall positive opinion of Obama, well, that’s still pretty goddamn depressing.
The Other Bob
We are all Obamabots now?
fasteddie9318
@FlipYrWhig: If “liberal” means having a concern with how society treats its most powerless members, then it damn well ought to include how we treat our prisoners or, even moreso, how we treat these people that we’ve redefined as something other than “prisoner” precisely so that we can strip them of every last right.
burnspbesq
@Rawk Chawk:
Our coach sucks much worse. 917 wins and four national championships.
FlipYrWhig
@Rawk Chawk: That’s a problem for anyone who wants to dictate what _true_ liberals should think about this stuff, though. It seems like liberal civil libertarians have a lot of work to do convincing even fellow liberals that civil libertarian ideas are crucial to being liberal. In the blogosphere way too many people presume that the two go together hand in glove. This survey suggests that they don’t.
FlipYrWhig
@fasteddie9318: It ought to, but it hasn’t yet. That’s interesting. It means persuasion is in order. Otherwise we’re just making smaller and smaller circles of True Scotsmen.
burnspbesq
@fasteddie9318:
Fair question, and I’m not sure I love any of the possible answers. The best one I can come up with is that the UK is sort of institutionally committed to handing the guy over to Jordan, for reasons unclear, so long as the Jordanians will say out loud that they won’t use evidence obtained by torture in his trial. They may feel like they don’t want to try him in the UK for fear of having to reveal intelligence sources and methods.
Allan
@fasteddie9318: How did the pollster score the response, “I’m not happy with our failure to close Gitmo, but I approve of Obama’s efforts to do so”?
TheF79
Poo-flinging aside, it’s clear there are two different visions of politics at work here.
In one vision, voters have preferences, and policy outcomes reflect those preferences. So Gitmo remains open BECAUSE 53% of liberal democrats (and most republicans) want that. In this vision, the opposition to a more progressive America stems from the fact that Americans aren’t more progressive. So in this world, the solution is to convince fellow Americans/congresscritters to change their preferences to be more progressive.
In the other vision, voters are essentially sheeple who follow whatever their political leaders dictate. So 53% of liberal democrats want to keep Gitmo open because their political leaders want that. Here, the opposition to a more progressive America stems from the fact that political leaders are opposed to a more progressive America. In this world, the solution is for more arm-twisting, bully-pulpiting by political leaders.
Depending which vision you believe (voters have agency, or voters are sheeple) will influence pretty heavily how you view things like Gitmo remaining open.
eemom
@Rawk Chawk:
Hi Timmy. I like your new nym.
Danny
Yep, it’s depressing.
Re: Guantanamo, the timeline was: 1) Obama tries to close it, 2) Republicans and the conservative media circuit demagogue the issue threatening “AQ fighters on the run in Smalltown, Real Mmurica” 3) Polls show big majorities opposing closing Guantanamo 4) Congress shuts Obama down with big majorities
It’s easy to scare people. It’s a f-cking shame, but maybe Obama can have another go in his second term. Not having to worry about re-election might make it easier.
Svensker
@eemom:
I’m not so sure. Timmy wasn’t so interested in sports, IIRC, although JC’s jockstrap held some fascination. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
fasteddie9318
@burnspbesq: What I can find about the case suggests that the UK can’t try him because they can’t show that he’s broken any UK laws. So they want to deport him because they don’t like his preaching and they think he’s actively involved with al-Qaeda, but the only evidence that he’s been directly involved in terrorism comes out of Jordan and was obtained by torture.
Danny
Only 5 percent of Americans strongly oppose the drone strikes against AQ in AfPak and Yemen. 53 percent strongly support them.
(Non-strongly Prodrone and strongly anti-gitmo myself)
Heliopause
In case nobody has posted it yet, here is a Gallup release when Obama took office. 68% of liberals wanted Guantanamo closed at that time.
gwangung
@Heliopause: Do we have other data points? There are several hypotheses here, but I don’t have enough data.
NobodySpecial
@Svensker: I remember a certain President taking funds ordered to be used for Afghanistan and instead taking the 101st and sticking them in Kuwait prior to invasion of Iraq.
Secondly, they still have the money to have trials and such, right? Just because a prison is open doesn’t mean there has to be anyone in it.
Rawk Chawk
@eemom:
Thanks, Mommy.
I decided to return to my roots. :D
Heliopause
@gwangung:
This looks like a pretty big database.
Brachiator
@Rawk Chawk:
If that is the conclusion that you take from this, you really are stuck in an ideological rut.
@TheF79:
There is another view on this, that people want to feel safe more than they care about a more or less “progressive” America.
The GOP exploits this fear, and the Democrats cannot effectively counter it.
Danny
@Heliopause:
Some of the shift may be a mushy middle who are ok with detention, but not with torture.
Marc
@Heliopause:
The shift may have a lot less to do with “rally round our guy” and a lot more to do with the very effective demagogic campaign run by the republicans after Obama got into office.
Mnemosyne
@NobodySpecial:
So your main problem with Obama is that he doesn’t act enough like Bush for your taste?
JGabriel
John Cole @ Top:
Yeah, I don’t get that at all. I support using drones to go after confirmed terrorists, with reservations (I think it’s overused at present and we hit too many innocents), but Gitmo should have been shut down years ago. You’d think more Democrats would know that it’s only being kept open due to GOP freakouts about closing it.
Or maybe they do know that, and have succumbed to the brow-beating. I don’t know. But you’re right, John, it’s depressing no matter how you look at it.
.
Danny
@Mnemosyne:
In addition, the polled support at the start of the Iraq war was 62%. Bush redirecting funds never gained traction in the media – because the narrative was Bush, the deeply loved Commander in Chief who the nation rallied to after 9/11. In other words, not many gave a shit at the time…
GVG
Baloney poll as many have already said. I want Gitmo closed badly. Obama is not a dictator and I know perfectly well it’s Congress that wouldn’t close it. It’s also not in my backyard sissy voters who allowed themselves to be panicked about where those prisoners would be put.
No elected official was willing to risk the slightest chance of something going wrong with one former prisoner killing somebody because the voters have clearly shown they’ll crucify their reps with blame if it happens. I don’t know what to do about it either.
taylormattd
@Heliopause: Hahaha. So it has @Danny: Oh, but you see, St. Glenn of Greenwald has decreed that this proves “hypocrisy” on the part of Obots.
Therefore Cole must link to it to prove his bonafides with the firebagger crew. (I think it’s a once-per-month requirement, to sista souljah the perceived Obots)
David Koch
/fixed
Heliopause
@Danny:
@Marc:
So you are suggesting the possible explanations that, rather than personality cultism, these people have shifted position because (1) they lack principle on the subject of indefinite detention without due process (which is in itself torture) or (2) they are easily swayed by transparent demagoguery. None of these possibilities reflect well on the people we’re talking about.
Danny
@taylormattd:
Don’t be to hard on John, he’s just doing penance for his dark years when he was part of the 68%.
Here’s the thing about the polling on the drones (which I support). It shows just 5% strongly agreeing with Greenwald, with 53% strongly disagreeing.
Isn’t that a monumental failure in ones role as an advocate? Greenwald’s objective must reasonably be to convince more Americans to agree with him? But could it be that crying “hypocrisy!” and “betrayal!” at the President – who as a candidate said he’d do exactly what he’s now doing – isn’t the most effective way to spread awareness and convince people who are on the fence to share ones views?
Why does he even aspire to make the President change his mind, when he hasn’t found a way to make more than a fringe fraction of the people change theirs?
TG Chicago
@middlewest: How many polls do you require before you believe it? More importantly, do you have polls that show these findings to be incorrect?
Are you saying that you don’t believe this poll? That the numbers couldn’t possibly be that high?
Danny
@Heliopause:
Yes, I believe that most people haven’t been following this nearly as closely as we have, or thinking about it nearly as much.
TG Chicago
@Dave: Sanders and Feingold voted against moving Guantanamo. They wanted it closed altogether. They weren’t willing to accept moving it to Thomson, IL, but with all civil liberties violations intact.
Danny
@TG Chicago:
Now unless the proposition was to move the buildings, I’d say you’re looking at a case of actual hypocrisy, right there…
Maus
@taylormattd:
I would believe that the blue-doggish Liebermans call themselves “liberal Democrats”, however I’m just as certain that the ever-growing no home phone line having population of liberals skews these polls harshly.
taylormattd
@Danny: Greenwald doesn’t aspire to do shit. He has literally zero interest in changing people’s minds. The reason for this is because he is a Paultard Libertarian who has loathed Obama for years, and who hates anyone who doesn’t express open contempt for Obama.
Thus, a poll question based on a lie, answered by god-knows-who “self-described” liberal democrats (none of whose previous positions on Gitmo Greenwald knows) is used as a sledgehammer to bludgeon perceived Obots as hypocrites.
TG Chicago
@gwangung: Exactly correct. People who are falling over themselves to justify Obama’s GITMO policy are showing that they are literally reflexive Obama defenders.
This post isn’t even about Obama. It’s about Democratic voters.
General Stuck
This post could have been done without the Greenwald link of rumor and innuendo and the usual bullshit suppositions concerning Obama. This sumbitch is the prototype firebagger lying sack of shit, and the person that links to him ought to shut the fuck up about any criticism about said firebaggers. You ride with a firebagger, you are one, …….. And that doesn’t even get into other ugly shit Greenwald vomits out, especially when prominent black female bloggers are involved.
And it matters not one iota, how many times you claim to be going to vote for Obama. Peddling garbage stands on its own.
General Stuck
I mean, does anyone out there believe that Obama, et al, are purposely targeting rescuers arriving after the initial drone attack, Really? You are a fucked up individual if you believe that and still claim to support the man. And I am one who has a lot of problems with our drone program for targeting terrorist, but targeting rescuers like AQ does?
Danny
@TG Chicago:
Baby, are u 4reel?
FlipYrWhig
@Danny: IMHO the poll result, presuming it’s accurate, shows just how small the “Greenwaldian” constituency is.
@General Stuck: I thought the “hypocrisy” of the title referred to the idea that a person could call him- or herself “liberal” and yet express support for a position that restricts civil liberties. John, Glenn Greenwald, and many regulars here, to varying degrees, find it shameful that liberals would take that view. Thus, “hypocrisy.”
The only reason for Obama to enter into it is if you think the only reason why a liberal would not be worked up about civil liberties and intrusive state power is because he’s rallying around Obama. I know that’s Greenwald’s go-to position. And I think the reason is because he has a skewed view of the importance of executive power matters to liberals.
I don’t think classic “bleeding-heart” liberals really think very much about this cluster of issues, and if they do, they don’t think they’re particularly crucial to what makes them liberals. IMHO a bleeding-heart liberal would care a lot more about, say, gun control — which a civil libertarian would most likely have a hard time embracing.
So I don’t think the explanation for the “hypocrisy” is that liberals love Obama so much they’ll excuse anything. I think the explanation is that, unlike Greenwald, most people don’t particularly factor in “due process for terror suspects” when deciding whether they’re liberals or not.
slightly-peeved
I’m surprised if Greenwald’s trumpeting this poll, when if anything it supports the argument that the people he and others call Obots are just trying to deal with the US electorate as it is, rather than as they wish it would be.
I mean, if you ask people in other countries what are the good things about the US, ‘benevolent foreign policy’ wouldn’t be on the list. I can’t imagine ‘civil rights’ would be particularly high either, given the way the US treats it own citizens, though I don’t think there’s any country with a perfect record there.
TG Chicago
@General Stuck: That drones have done follow-up attacks targeting responders to first strikes has been reported by the New York Times, CNN, the Associated Press, and ABC News, among others. You don’t believe them?
General Stuck
@FlipYrWhig:
It should be obvious beyond question that there is liberal hypocrisy involved here, and it is ‘depressing’. It wasn’t necessary to link via Greenwald, latching onto the breathless firebagging bullshit to make that point. And I don’t give a tinkers damn what GG’s is trying to do, only what he does, beyond informing us of the obvious. It is hate driven, whatever it is, and I am saying so on this thread. Because somebody needs to.
TG Chicago
@FlipYrWhig:
Why else would the polls have shifted so much since Obama became president?
Chickenjuice
It’s not hypocrisy to see that in the hands of the Obama administration certain policies are better administered than they were under the Bush administration. It may be that many liberal Democrats believed that Guantanamo under Bush was just an extension cord away from becoming another Abu Ghraib, but the same group no longer worries so much about this happening with a somewhat more enlightened president.
Don’t get me wrong, I think the fucking place should be shut down and American’s who fear housing suspected terrorists in maximum security prisons should be ignored….
General Stuck
@TG Chicago:
No, do you believe everything you read in the newspapers? And the point is that GG takes an un sourced report in the NYT’s as to unknown journalists saying so without any other info. Were they there? or was it hear say? What do you think the locals are going to tell the press?
And the point I’m making is GG takes these un sourced reports and leaps to Obama “purposely” targeting rescuers.
slightly-peeved
@137:As someone from a country well-left of the US, hearing a bunch of relative right-wingers argue over who is the purer liberal is both funny and sad. I’m sure if people wanted to claim to be better liberals, Kay has no shortage of political activities people could help with.
Danny
@taylormattd:
Yeah, pretty much. I’m torn because I think we do need more principled non-interventionists, pacifists, civil libertarians – not less. But principled is the operative word, and GG doesn’t qualify.
AA+ Bonds
Man, what is up with the site refresh today? I already bombed a thread with comments about this before I could see it on the front page.
Anyway, yeah,
liberals should be fucking ashamed
and
liberals who oppose these policies should be even more fucking ashamed that they haven’t kept other liberals on point
FlipYrWhig
@TG Chicago: Perhaps because they were proxies for “everything Bush does sucks.” I haven’t checked and maybe I should, but I don’t think a poll on the more abstract question of whether suspected terrorists should be held at Guantanamo would fluctuate that much; whereas a poll phrased as “Do you support Pres. Bush’s decision to…” is going to swing self-declared liberals to “Fuck no” at least as much as one phrased as “Do you support Pres. Obama’s decision to…” is going to swing them to “Uh, yes, I guess.”
My hunch is that both Bush-era and Obama-era polls on a question like this are going to pick up general anti-Bush and pro-Obama sentiments that don’t have much to do with the actual issue being discussed, because, unlike something like abortion or global warming, the issue hasn’t been settled such that there is a Liberal Position and a Conservative Position to latch onto.
But that’s not liberals changing their minds on a vital issue because their guy is in charge. That’s liberals not really caring about the issue. At least that’s where I am for now.
AA+ Bonds
You’re losing election issues, people, come on
Americans are ready for a robust left option and if the Democrats don’t provide it, they won’t benefit from it
Shelton Lankford
I have not worried much about Obama’s core values or respect for the constitution for several months now. Most of the leadership he exerts is in the opposite direction from where I believe moral leadership would take us. We have the President we deserve. The people I worry about are those who no longer can work up any outrage or even mild protest about it. It’s all I could think about as the annual festival to testosterone (or viagra) played out on Sunday, and militaristic vulgarity was the dominent theme of everything we saw. Bradley Manning is under the jail right now because he provided video evidence of a massacre that followed up on would-be life saving attempts by shooting up rescuers. We are so fucking lost.
AA+ Bonds
@FlipYrWhig:
That’s the same thing? It means that they don’t have fucking values and all that matters is who is President and, second to that, what he says is okay
FlipYrWhig
@slightly-peeved: I didn’t say anything about “better” liberals. But there are a lot of different kinds of liberals, and the ones who care supremely about civil liberties and executive power are greatly outnumbered, so maybe they should stop trying to lecture other kinds of liberals about how they’re NOT DOIN IT RITE.
Danny
@FlipYrWhig:
So GG would spare us his holy poutrage in a world where the options were progressive-moderate-conservative, then.
FlipYrWhig
@AA+ Bonds: You, like John and Greenwald, think that a particular view on civil liberties for suspected terrorists is important to determining who has liberal values. This poll seems to suggest that many more liberals don’t feel it’s that important at all.
Glenn Greenwald defends the Citizens United decision on free speech grounds. Does that mean that he doesn’t have fucking values, or does it mean that he has a different sense when it comes to what issues qualify a person as a liberal?
I just don’t think support for, let’s call it, “due process for suspected terrorists” has gotten to be a litmus test for who gets to call themselves liberals. That’s what the poll result would seem to indicate: you can be a liberal, and call yourself a liberal, and not feel like that liberalism compels you in a certain direction on an issue like Guantanamo. “I dunno, I support that thing you said Obama did” only works if the issue doesn’t have a life of its own — and I don’t think this one does.
I think I’ve talked myself into a circle, but I’d still say that what the poll really shows is not that liberals changed their minds on Guantanamo based on who was President, but rather that liberal views on Guantanamo have never really been severable from liberal views on who the President was. Maybe that’s the same thing. I don’t know, I’m confusing myself.
Danny
@AA+ Bonds:
I’ll agree those people are unprincipled scum, if you in return promise to care deeply and equally about all issues from now on. Deal?
Rawk Chawk
@taylormattd:
Nice, neat little fantasy world you live in there. Makes everything so simple for your tiny mind…
FlipYrWhig
@Danny: Well, my big theory on Greenwald is that he came to see himself as a liberal because he was horrified by Bush’s moves on things like the Patriot Act. So he thinks liberals are liberals because of civil liberties and executive power issues. Then when Obama became president, he found a new set of offenses against civil liberties and a new cluster of concerns for expanded executive power, and he was flabbergasted that liberals — his adoptive tribe — weren’t all with him. So he concluded that some liberals were hypocrites. But in actuality he’s not really a liberal, he’s a civil libertarian verging on small-r republican, and he’s plenty inconsistent on _liberal_ issues (like Citizens United) himself.
Danny
@Rawk Chawk:
If torture was the worst transgression against civil liberties that occurred during the Bush year, why won’t GG acknowledge that Obama is a huge improvement?
FlipYrWhig
@FlipYrWhig: Or, to follow up on myself, when Clinton was president it was the militia-movement and survivalist _right_ that was all worked up about civil liberties issues like surveillance and the ATF. “Jack-booted thugs” and all that. Before that it was the left, challenging McCarthy, Hoover, COINTELPRO, the CIA, etc. It’s not really a left/right issue.
To bring it back to the present discussion, I don’t think a certain view on Guantanamo comes along with signing up for being a liberal, any more than a certain view on smoking in bars and restaurants does.
Mnemosyne
@FlipYrWhig:
I might also argue that some liberals may think there’s a difference between having an active Gitmo where new prisoners are constantly being brought and held, and a basically inactive one that has a core of prisoners who need to be processed/brought to trial but that has basically been half-emptied already.
FlipYrWhig
@Mnemosyne: Could be — a kind of difference between what the word “Guantanamo” connoted (to self-described liberals) at its peak newsworthiness a few years back and what it means now. “Torture chamber” to “oh, right, that place where they keep the terrorists, is that still open?” I’m not sure how closely anybody follows the details anymore.
Danny
@FlipYrWhig:
I guess the nice thing to do would be to assume good faith, even with the knowledge that GG didn’t get religion until well after Iraqi Freedom. But yeah. The gubmint taking my guns, my money or sending me to fight and die in Vietnam – all roads lead to Rome. I do wish he’d come clean as a run-of-the-mill gubmint hater, and maybe his daily accusations of hypocrisy wouldn’t feel so disingenuous.
TG Chicago
@FlipYrWhig: Yeah, that’s a fair point. Sad how little people think about these things.
I wonder how much polling there is on these issues that uses questions without inserting politicians’ names in them.
I also wonder what would happen if you asked, for instance, “Do you support President Obama’s decision to dismantle the EPA?” (i.e., something the president has never given the slightest indication he wishes to do, but that you’d expect liberals to oppose.)
TG Chicago
@Danny: GG has often said that torture is a rare civil liberties issue in which Obama has shown improvement over Bush.
TG Chicago
@FlipYrWhig:
But they did when Bush was president, no? Or at least they claimed to?
TG Chicago
@General Stuck:
If I don’t believe something that multiple major news sources have reported, then I better have strong evidence that it’s false. Or else I’m using the same critical thinking skills as a climate change denier.
Danny
@TG Chicago:
And you and him are in agreement then that all “civil liberties issues” are created equal, and progress is measured in quantity rather than quality?
WaterGirl
@dmbeaster: That’s Derf, just under another screen name, right?
General Stuck
@TG Chicago:
What critical thinking skills? I don’t see any of those for someone who takes news reports as the gospel of truth that Obama is deliberately targeting funeral mourners and rescuers, without learning on what basis of supposition those reports were made. And I have only read the one GG linked to. If you have other links to flesh out your allegations, then let’s see them, and we can go from there.
El Cid
At what level of liberal or Democratic support or opposition by polling should I change my mind on some topic? Is it a roundabout, or a precise figure?
What if I’m the only person convinced by some particular analysis or stance? Does that mean I’m wrong?
OzoneR
@w3ski:
Apparently so are the American people,
Omnes Omnibus
@El Cid:
If you are the only person, then you disagree with me. Of course you are wrong. SATSQ.
TG Chicago
@General Stuck: GG linked to many supporting reports in his post. Re-read the paragraph beginning “As I indicated…”.
What specifically do you find lacking in the Bureau of Investigative Journalism report?
OzoneR
@middlewest:
All the time
OzoneR
@El Cid:
You shouldn’t. No one should, apparently many do.
But you should also realize why you’re not getting your way.
“right thing to do” doesn’t work when what decision makers are hired by the mob.
OzoneR
@TG Chicago:
I think it was overstated how much they cared specifically about that stuff when Bush was President. I never got that. When Gitmo open, Bush’s approval rating was in the 70s.
It was the Iraq war, tax cuts, his social conservatism and Social Security that buried him.
FlipYrWhig
@TG Chicago:
Good question. I do kind of worry about how much anyone particularly pays attention to the news anymore. My guess is that unless the question hits a well-known tripwire — like the environment, or abortion, or gay rights, or taxes — you’re not going to find many people hearing the question as something other than “Do you support PRESIDENT?” and answering accordingly. And I don’t think the treatment of POWs and suspected terrorists is going to break through the fog.
General Stuck
@TG Chicago:
From my googling GG’s accusations, all I could find were secondary articles on the London based Bureau of Investigative Journalism report that civilians had been killed in these attacks, which is already known, and one reason I oppose using drones for this type of mil action, when US troops are not under fire somewhere.
And the only major US news outlets simply report on the BIJ study. And about all of that study was second hand info. My point is, it is an offensive leap of logic to claim that Obama is personally and deliberately targeting rescuers and funeral mourners. On one report, the rescuers were other Taliban that were armed and marching into Afghan to attack the US.
From the report, there were surviving Taliban and some villagers doing the rescue.
This is the horror of warfare, and civilians get caught in the crossfire and die. ONe side musters to attack the other side, and the other side strikes first, and civilians die as a result. I don’t see it as a suggested cold blooded deliberation to attack rescuers or civilians, as depicted by GG.
If you want to go with it is time for us to withdraw our ground forces from Afghanistan and cease attacking Taliban in Pakistan and elsewhere, then i am in agreement. Especially now that OBL is gone, and AQ is basically defeated at present. Just leave off the hysterical bullshit on Obama acting like some kind of cold blooded deliberate killer of civilians. This is all I am saying.
El Cid
@OzoneR: Why I’m “not getting my way” doesn’t tell me anything about what I genuinely believe about some issue.
There are all sorts of things which happen the way they happen, but it doesn’t tell me a whole lot about whether or not a particular analysis or policy seems to me to be convincing or to some degree more moral than another.
FlipYrWhig
@El Cid:
You shouldn’t change your mind about your stance, but you might want to reassess whether your stance is more _liberal_ than someone else’s. There’s a difference between “I think I’m right” and (ETA: not that you were doing this!) “I think I’m right, I know I’m liberal, ergo my view is the proper liberal one and everyone who professes to be a liberal had better feel the same, unless they like lying to themselves.”
David Koch
Who are you yelling at? Everyone on this blog, without exception, supports closing GITMO.
FlipYrWhig
@David Koch: I’m confused. Are you talking to me, or John, or someone else?
David Koch
@FlipYrWhig: No, not you.
I’m talking to the usual suspects who always complain.
Everyone here supports closing GITMO. There problem isn’t here.
FlipYrWhig
@David Koch: Ah, got it, agreed.
OzoneR
@El Cid: Nobody said it was supposed to.