Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Republican speaker of the house Mike Johnson is the bland and smiling face of evil.

Shallow, uninformed, and lacking identity

Let me file that under fuck it.

There is no compromise when it comes to body autonomy. You either have it or you don’t.

We are aware of all internet traditions.

“When somebody takes the time to draw up a playbook, they’re gonna use it.”

Tide comes in. Tide goes out. You can’t explain that.

Russian mouthpiece, go fuck yourself.

Stamping your little feets and demanding that they see how important you are? Not working anymore.

“Why isn’t this Snickers bar only a nickel?”

Nancy smash is sick of your bullshit.

… gradually, and then suddenly.

Let the trolls come, and then ignore them. that’s the worst thing you can do to a troll.

It’s a new day. Light all those Biden polls of young people on fire and throw away the ashes.

No one could have predicted…

Fuck the extremist election deniers. What’s money for if not for keeping them out of office?

The new republican ‘Pastor’ of the House is an odious authoritarian little creep.

I am pretty sure Katy Tur wasn’t always such a bootlicking sycophant.

Anyone who bans teaching American history has no right to shape America’s future.

Let’s not be the monsters we hate.

You know it’s bad when the Project 2025 people have to create training videos on “How To Be Normal”.

An unpunished coup is a training exercise.

Pelosi: “He either is stupid, or he thinks the rest of us are.” Why not both?

People are complicated. Love is not.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Afternoon Open Thread

Afternoon Open Thread

by | 328 Comments

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I’m a big fan of Melissa Harris-Perry’s new show on MSNBC, mainly because of discussions like this (in contrast to whatever the Sunday Bobbleheads are usually spouting about.)

Things never before heard on a Sunday politics show: “See what happens when you invite a theologian to the table.” And I hate Sunday shows. I watch this one. I’ll continue to watch this one.

And it bears repeating that on any other cable news show discussing the religious implications of birth control and women, the panelist would have been male.

Open thread.

 

Reader Interactions

328Comments

  1. 1.

    BGinCHI

    Which Bishop is that on the panel? Anyone know?

    At one point folks were quoting the Bishop of Bridgeport. I was like, “Bishop of Bridgeport? How hard is it to get that post? Was the See of Bumfuck, Alabama already filled?”

    Bush leaguers….

  2. 2.

    beltane

    @BGinCHI: Hey, don’t knock the Bishop of Bridgeport. The guy had to work his ass off covering up hundreds of priest sex-abuse allegations to get that post, who are we to question his credentials.

  7. 7.

    c u n d gulag

    The Sunday shows have their rotation of geriatric peckerhead guests, hosted by ancient male peckerheads like Boob Schieffer, or younger ones like David Gre-borey.

    One channel took a chance and got Christiane Amanpour, a terrific reporter, to host on ABC – and proceeded to ruin her.

    Thanks for the tip – I’ll give this show a chance next Sunday.

  8. 8.

    KyCole

    I’m really happy to have some decent morning shows on the weekend when I actually have time to watch.

  9. 9.

    Veritas

    So why isn’t Obambi doing anything about skyrocketing gas prices? They’re about to seriously impact this (weak) economic recovery, possible sending us back down into a double-dip at the same time Europe is being hammered hard and China is slowing down.

    With gas prices poised to hit $5, or even $6/gallon in the coming summer, why did Obambi cancel the Keystone XL pipeline? Why is he letting China get the oil? Does he have any solution at all to rapidly escalating gas prices that will hit American consumers where it hurts?

    Republicans have a solution to high gas prices:

    Drill Here.
    Drill Now.
    Pay Less.

    What’s the Democrats solution?

  10. 10.

    Suzan

    @surlygurl:

    I agree. Up is most often very good. So nice to have Sunday morning shows with more liberals than conservatives. And the conservatives Chris has on are people who will discuss issues instead of trying to drown out everyone who disagrees.

  11. 11.

    WaterGirl

    Up with Chris Hayes had 4 women on his show talking about the health care/religion/birth control issue 2 weeks ago. It’s really a terrific show with terrific conversation. I just finished watching this morning’s show, which was terrific.

    I will check out the clip you posted above. I hope you check out UP with Chris Hayes. If you missed the show, go to the website where I believe they have all the clips from his shows.

    Edit: just noticed i used the word terrific three times in a row. Oh well. I guess that’s better than saying “awesome”.

  14. 14.

    Spaghetti Lee

    @Veritas:

    Looks like you guys weren’t kidding in the oil thread yesterday when you talked about it being a new right-wing talking point.

  16. 16.

    Jennifer

    @Veritas: How is more production going to bring down prices when the current prices aren’t the result of insufficient supply, but rather more speculating by your butt-buddies on Wall Street? You can’t bring the current prices down without regulating “the producers” as you would call them.

  17. 17.

    Veritas

    @Jennifer:

    Ah, yes. Blaming “speculators” and “hoarders”. Stalin did the same thing when his agricultural policies failed and his construction projects turned out to be shoddily built. It’s a favorite of the left.

  18. 18.

    jenn

    @Veritas: Oh, good lord. (A) gas prices are a function of global supply + global demand + oil company greed + speculators greed; in a global market, there are limits to what a president can do; (B) Drill here – drill now does not reduce prices at the pump — it takes years to develop an oilfield. (C) High fuel prices suck in an economic downturn, no question, but overall, the higher the prices, the easier it is to transition to a cleaner energy economy…which is something we need to do. And (D) frankly, we here in the US pay insanely low prices at the pump. And (E) Obambi? really? At least be creative, if you’re going to insult the man.

  20. 20.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    One thing that I haven’t seen get much MSM attention, and it would have to come from one of MNBC’s “Nerdlanders”, is the fact that while all this lady-parts freak-out was going on with Chris Matthews, EJ Dionne and Lawrence O’Donnell, the retired Archbeanie of NY, Egan, apologized for his apology about sex abuse. It was one of those moments that if you read it in a satire you would say maybe that’s pushing the joke a little too hard.

  21. 21.

    Yutsano

    @Amir Khalid: Now now now. Rush the Hutt hath spoken and Veritas has his official talking points. Let the troll be, especially since it will most likely go nowhere.

  22. 22.

    Martin

    Rachel was pimping her show the other night and pointed out how excited she was about the direction of cable news, and I have to agree what that view. MSNBC now has two PhDs with shows in their field, and 3 pretty clearly wonk-based shows. Lawrence could have that show as well, if he was so inclined. Having a focus more on how all of the moving pieces of government work could be pretty good, and he’s very knowledgable of that and there are nights when he does that, but not enough, IMO.

  23. 23.

    Veritas

    Drill here – drill now does not reduce prices at the pump—it takes years to develop an oilfield.

    We’ve been trying to drill in ANWR since 1980, and you’ve used this line for 30+ years now. I wonder how much lower gas prices would be if we had drilled in 1981? Plus the market “prices in” future supply.

    High fuel prices suck in an economic downturn, no question, but overall, the higher the prices, the easier it is to transition to a cleaner energy economy

    Let them fill up with Solyndra! Yeah, THAT’S a winning strategy.

    frankly, we here in the US pay insanely low prices at the pump.

    Boy, I sure hope Obambi uses this talking point in July “America, you’re paying $5.50/gallon, but that’s extremely low! Insanely low! Suck it up!” Maybe once we have sky-high heating oil prices in the winter he can do a Jimmy Carter, don a sweater and lecture us on turning down the thermostat.

  25. 25.

    Hill Dweller

    @c u n d gulag:

    One channel took a chance and got Christiane Amanpour, a terrific reporter, to host on ABC – and proceeded to ruin her.

    This can’t be repeated enough. The networks are institutionally geared toward the right wing. Consequently, journalists with even a modicum of integrity are faced with a choice: sell your souls and advance or be a real journalist and risk career stagnation.

    Unfortunately, the sociopathic careerists, who only care about their place in the media hierarchy, are getting the lion’s share of these hosting gigs, and perpetuating the false balance that currently plagues journalism.

    I’m glad MSNBC gave Maddow, Hayes and MHP their own shows, but those three can’t offset the amount of awful ‘journalism’ that network practices the rest of time.

  26. 26.

    Schlemizel

    @beltane:
    Reminds me of an underground comic I saw in the 60’s. A judge speaking down at some long-haired DFH:
    “Show me some respect boy, I had to kiss a lot of ass to get this position”

  27. 27.

    schrodinger's cat

    I have a question for Catholics, on this thread. What is the significance of the intricate lace doily type things, that priests wear? For example, just last week when the new cardinals were appointed, in the news photos, there seemed to be many priests wearing them.

  29. 29.

    muddy

    I want to third on Up w/ Chris Hayes. Actual discussion, imagine it! You can watch it at their site if you aren’t an early riser. I like the segment of the new thing they learned that week, and each person says one. Sometimes they even cite one of the other panelists, and I have to say that I have learned a lot watching it, rather than just shouting “Shut up you liar how dare you” which was my reaction to other Sunday shows. Eh, that’s just a time waster.

    The one this morning had a great talk about the financial crisis, there was a young woman who is with Occupy SEC and she was terrific. I like having MSNBC on while I’m reading the papers.

  30. 30.

    handsmile

    @WaterGirl: (#11)

    That was an awesome comment! Maybe not as awesome as Up with Chris Hayes. Which is truly awesome! I mean totally! Tho this morning he had on Jeff Greenfield. Who was not awesome. He was aw-ful. (A dinner theater impersonation of Bill Moyers.) Gag me.

    Chris Hayes is seriously messin’ with my weekend mornings, the rat bastid.

    (Also too, as commenters go, you are terrific.)

  31. 31.

    kdaug

    @Veritas: [With full knowledge I’m engaging the troll]:

    You do understand that the Keystone Pipeline was to bring Canadian shale crude to refineries in Houston (LaMarque, Texas City, et. al.)?

    And from there the refined fuel would be off-loaded onto tankers to take it pretty much anywhere on earth?

    Would some stay here? Could be.

    But it will go where it can get the highest price.

    That’s the fucking point – to make the most money you can off your product.

    There are people who think about this all day. I ain’t one of them, but I know a few.

  32. 32.

    some guy

    the wingnut wurlitzer is gonna do everything they can to mislead the dimbulbs and boobs that are their base that a huge decline in consumption and a massive increase in speculation of oil has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with higher gas preices.

    MittensBot shill is here to tell us , ya you betcha.

  33. 33.

    John S.

    It’s always a treat to see the formerly downtrodden trolls revitalized with Fresh Talking Points™!

    At least we all get the opportunity to see what steaming pile of bullshit is going to get served up for the next few months, until it doesn’t work anymore. And then we can rely on Veritas to come back armed with all new Fresh Talking Points™.

    It’s like being part of a Frank Luntz focus group.

  34. 34.

    S. cerevisiae

    @Veritas: You do realize we are currently exporting refined petroleum to Central and South America? There isn’t a damn thing any president can do about gas prices, it is global demand that is the driver.

  37. 37.

    Schlemizel

    @Dinglenut:
    Dear dinglenut:
    We are using less oil now than any time in the last decade. 8% less than the peak year of 2006. In fact America was a net exporter of petroleum products in 2011. Drilling now, drilling there – blah blah blah is not solution at all. The ONLY ONLY cause for the rise in gas prices right now is raw speculation (the hopes of greedy hedge funds that we really do light up Iran) with a desire to hurt President Obama.

    Destroying the environment more and in more places will serve no purpose other to create mo tax breaks for foreign corporations like Shel, BP and Amico.

    One is left to wonder if you are a bad liar or just incredibly stupid.

  38. 38.

    jenn

    @Veritas: You do realize that there can be good reasons for not developing an oilfield, right? The time it takes to develop an oil field has never been the point in any discussion about drilling in ANWR – it’s a rebuttal to the “drill here + drill now –> nirvana” argument you lot always bring to the table. Have you ever been to ANWR? It’s one of the most spectacular places on earth. There are places worth saving. It is one of them.

  40. 40.

    Veritas

    @kdaug:

    Then how come China didn’t want the Keystone XL Pipeline built and are ecstatic that we rejected it? This means more Chinese influence over Canada and a loss for the US, in addition to lost jobs and higher oil prices. Stephen Harper was snubbed by Obambi, and that’s not good for America.

    We need to lower prices as much as possible, and that means drill, drill, drill. ANWR, the tar sands, open up more national park land and offshroe drilling sites, too.

    Or we COULD give more money to Solyndra. That’ll lower energy prices. Ha. hahahah. hahahahahah!

  41. 41.

    Mutaman

    Melissa Harris-Perry: Isn’t she the one who said that if we ever criticised President Obama, we were racists?

  43. 43.

    Chyron HR

    @Veritas:

    Why isn’t Space God Moroni doing anything about Romney’s plummeting poll ratings?

    Or have you swept Romney down the same memory hole your last Messiah, Pawlenty, went into?

  44. 44.

    Amir Khalid

    In happier news, Brighton scored four goals in a fifth-round FA Cup tie at Liverpool’s Anfield Stadium. Three of those were own goals, so Liverpool are now through to the sixth round, having beaten Brighton 6-1.

  46. 46.

    RSA

    Drill Later.
    Pay More.

    Coincidentally, this is the Republican view on contraception and health care policy.

  47. 47.

    Mark S.

    Quite a 48 hours for British heavyweight Derrick Chisora. First, he slapped his opponent, Vitali Klitschko, at the weigh-in. Then, in the actual fight, he gave Klitschko the toughest bout anyone’s given him or his brother in years (Klitschko and his younger brother have dominated heavyweight boxing for the last several years). Then, to top it all off, Chisora got in a fight with another boxer at the press conference and ended up getting arrested.

  49. 49.

    M-pop

    Really enjoying both Up With Chris Hayes and Melissa Harris-Perry and wish both a long and happy career. I used to watch Sunday shows because they were stupid and shouty, but now I watch these shows because they are smart.

  50. 50.

    Schlemizel

    @Dumbfuck:

    BTW – lair that calls itself truth, hows that Willard thing working out for you? Last I heard from you it included assurance that Willard was going to sweep 3 state contests, then well, 2 out of 3 and finally (within a matter of a couple of hours) a flat out money in the bank guarantee of a victory in Colorado.

    Does it hurt to be that stupid, or does it pay well?

  51. 51.

    Veritas

    @RSA:

    I could care less about contraception. In fact it should be put into the water supply in certain neighborhoods so we have fewer welfare babies.

  54. 54.

    Nutella

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    They like to wear things that look and are expensive. Long silk dresses and lacy pinafores are a sign of high rank in the Catholic church. Mere laymen should avoid glitter, though. (Contrast message with fashion statements in the photos here.)

  56. 56.

    Schlemizel

    @Moranus:

    Oh look! The thing that mislabels itself as truth is capable of learning from others mistakes!!

    You learn reeeel gooooood from troll errors why not try to learn something from 40 years of neo-con mistakes?

  58. 58.

    Veritas

    @Yutsano:

    You want Obambi to campaign for HIGHER gas prices? Oh please oh please oh pleeeaaaaaassseeee not since Jimmy Carter lectured us about our thermostats, or since Mondale not only said he might but *promised* to raise taxes in his campaign have I seen such an utter failure.

  60. 60.

    Schlemizel

    @Dumb as F’ing shit:
    except you have not responded to the actual facts – you know the verifiable truth that has been pointed out in response.

    Respond to them & we can engage you in a conversation but you can’t.

  61. 61.

    Cermet

    @Veritas: You are either stupid or a troll – drilling a new field takes years; bringing in a few successful wells to fully map out the best areas a number more, and finally, drilling enough wells to tap and create a good return even more – timeline: 5 – 12 years. You may be stupid but being a troll is what you are acting like.

    As for the pipe-line from the tar sands, that will not increase production at all. It will lower delivery cost (which is great for Canada, little for us), yes, but as one person pointed out, current prices are not related to demand and as a true asswipe, you referance Stalin proves you are an ass.

  62. 62.

    Veritas

    What if gas prices are $6/gallon in the fall? Seven dollars? How would everyone feel about Obambi’s chances then? So far I see advice for him to (1) campaign for a higher gas tax and (2) tell us how cheap it is by world standards and (3) tell us just to suck it up and get used to expensive energy because argle bargle peak oil global warming bargle.

    Do any of you morons think that would actually work in a campaign? Did some of you guys advise Mondale and Dukakis or something?

  63. 63.

    Andrew Abshier

    Let’s review: if we drill now, and all of the wells are viable (never a sure bet) it’s going to be 10 years from the time those wells are tapped to getting them to full production. TEN YEARS. Then, the gas prices might be lowered by 20 or 30 cents a gallon. Doesn’t seem like much of a bargain to me.

    I still find it odd that in the face of REDUCED demand for petroleum products in the U.S. at least that prices are going up. The Republican so-called solution is anything but.

  64. 64.

    Veritas

    @Cermet:

    Are you saying Stalin DIDN’T blame his problems on “hoarders”, “speculators”, and “saboteur”? He even said his opposition was trying to sabotage the Soviet economy. Sounds familiar?

  65. 65.

    Chyron HR

    @Veritas:

    What if gas prices are $6/gallon in the fall? Seven dollars?

    Then you would jerk off, because you desperately WANT gas to be six or seven dollars a gallon.

    This is what Republicans call “loving America”.

  66. 66.

    Veritas

    @Chyron HR:

    No, I want low, low gas prices. The only people on this thread calling for higher prices are liberals and “progressives”.

    In fact, “progressives” *desire* scarce and expensive energy, because then big government can control and ration its use, which is their wet dream. It’s the whole purpose behind the Warmist Cult.

  67. 67.

    Chyron HR

    @Veritas:

    In fact, “progressives” desire scarce and expensive energy

    Is that what self-proclaimed “progressive” Mitt Romney said?

  68. 68.

    some guy

    Overall, Santorum edges Romney by four points in a poll released Thursday by the Glengariff Group for the Detroit News and television stations WDIV and WZZN, an advantage that is within the margin of error. A flurry of automated and live interviewer polls conducted in the past week show Santorum leading by as much as 15 points and as little as three, high variance for polls conducted within the span of a week.

    VICTORY!

  69. 69.

    pseudonymous in nc

    I’m pie-filtering the minimum-wage paid troll, but I’ll just note that the big oil companies have leases that they could drill, but choose not to; and that there’s a finite number of a) oil rigs; b) sufficiently qualified riggers, and a waiting list to use them.

    Perhaps the minimum-wage paid troll thinks that the earth has a creamy hydrocarbon core?

  70. 70.

    pseudonymous in nc

    I’m pie-filtering the minimum-wage paid troll, but I’ll just note that the big oil companies have leases that they could drill, but choose not to; and that there’s a finite number of a) oil rigs; b) sufficiently qualified riggers, and a waiting list to use them.

    Perhaps the minimum-wage paid troll thinks that the earth has a creamy hydrocarbon core?

  71. 71.

    some guy

    “He heroically bailed out the Salt Lake City Olympic games by heroically going to Congress and asking them for tens of millions of dollars to bail out the Salt Lake Olympic games, in an earmark,” Santorum said. “Does the word hypocrisy come to mind?”

    VICTORY!

  72. 72.

    Amir Khalid

    @Martin:
    Well, defender Liam Bridcutt’s two own goals were attempts to block a header from Glen Johnson and a shot by Stevie Gerrard. Only Lewis Dunk’s OG was an out-and-out brain fart: he intercepted a cross, and with just three touches miscontrolled the ball right into his own net.

  73. 73.

    toujoursdan

    50 years from now, people will look at Carter’s energy/conservation policies and call them visionary.

    So I’ll play for a moment. The U.S. Department of the Interior estimates that there are 21 billion barrels of oil on and offshore. This [b]includes[/b] a USGS estimate of between 5.7 and 16.0 billion barrels of technically recoverable crude oil in ANWR.

    The U.S. economy uses 12 million barrels of oil [b]every day.[/b] (The world economy uses 89 million barrels of oil every day.)

    So let’s do the maths. Assuming every bit of is recoverable (which it isn’t.):

    21 billion/12 million = 1750 days of oil = 4.79 years.

    But since Jezus is coming any minute now, that’s good enough for right-wingers.

  74. 74.

    Veritas

    @toujoursdan:

    50 years from now, people will look at Carter’s energy/conservation policies and call them visionary.

    Bwahahahahahha! Seriously, guys, I hope Obambi uses this line. America will just LOVE being lectured to turn down our thermostats by an elitist prick like BO.

  76. 76.

    Veritas

    @toujoursdan:

    Chicken little “progressive” is being chicken little. You’re no different than the rapture-ready Christians you make fun of with your hysterical predictions of ZOMG PEAK OIL!

  78. 78.

    TuiMel

    Probably in minority but not a fan of MHP – nothing agaist her; just found her hard to listen to for an entire hour when she subs for Rachel or lawrence. Chris Hayes Up, OTH, is a favorite. I have to record it, but I find it very worthwhile.

  79. 79.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Veritas:

    What if gas prices are $6/gallon in the fall? Seven dollars? How would everyone feel about Obambi’s chances then? So far I see advice for him to (1) campaign for a higher gas tax and (2) tell us how cheap it is by world standards and (3) tell us just to suck it up and get used to expensive energy because argle bargle peak oil global warming bargle.

    Congress can act to end or curtail speculation in the gas and oil markets any time they want. Additionally, they could even pass some sort of nationalist bill that forbids “US gas” from being sold to foreign countries.

    Or they could do nothing and use high gas prices as a political issue. Which scenario do you prefer?

  80. 80.

    some guy

    @pseudonymous in nc:

    Oil drilling leases that are not being used? Overall there are 6,573 such permits currently on the books.

    Shorter Oil Industry:

    Drill Sometime In The Future
    Drill Whenever We Feel Like It
    Drill When It Is Most profitable to Our Shareholders.

    but having useful idiots like the MittensBot spewing lies helps the bottom line, too.

  82. 82.

    toujoursdan

    So you honestly think we’ll never run out of oil? Do you think it’s made in some factory somewhere? God you are dumb.

    We live in a finite planet with finite resources. Our corporate capitalist economy only works in a cycle of growth. At some point we’ll run out. The more growth, the faster that hard limit hits us.

    (It still doesn’t change the fact that there are only 4.79 years with of recoverable oil in the entire U.S.)

  84. 84.

    Chyron HR

    @Veritas:

    DADT will be the law of the land for generations to come. The GOP always wins.

    I think we can trust this guy’s predictions of the future. I bet he learned this stuff from some magical golden plates or something.

  86. 86.

    Veritas

    @toujoursdan:

    Do you honestly think we’ll never run out of oil?

    Really? You’re still into the “Limits to Growth” stuff? Do you also wear polyester and listen to 8-track tapes of the Village People, too?

    You do realize that the hysterical predictions made in the 1970s were, um wrong, right?

  88. 88.

    boss bitch

    Why the hell do you guys keep engaging Veritas?! He just copies lies he got from redstate and like the little attention whore that he is, plants it here and WHAM! you all give him the entire thread. Enough already!

  89. 89.

    Veritas

    @toujoursdan:

    You can run power plants on coal.

    What else do you think we’re going to charge electric cars with once they’re economically viable? Power plants fed with Carbon-Free Solyndra Magic Unicorn Dust?

  90. 90.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Veritas:

    I see you agree that it’s a winning issue for the GOP. Glad we agree.

    No, I actually think it’s a losing issue for Republicans. If they were powerless to do anything, then yes, it would probably be a winning issue for them. But they control Congress and have legislative and oversight powers to affect the situation.

  91. 91.

    WyldPirate

    @Veritas:

    No, I want low, low gas prices.

    Define low..$3/ gal, $2/gal or should the US gevernment subsidize it like Venezuala and Iraq do?

    And lets not forget the continuous US military presence in the Persian Gulf region for 20+ Years has in effect been a subsidy of oil prices.

  93. 93.

    Suffern ACE

    Went to see the secret life of arriety. What was the name of that very similar series of books where the borrowers had tails?

  94. 94.

    Joey Maloney

    @Veritas:

    In fact it should be put into the water supply in certain neighborhoods so we have fewer welfare babies.

    Your troll mask is slipping. Actually, isn’t it stuffy wearing a hood underneath it?

  95. 95.

    boss bitch

    I’m actually impressed with MHP. I stopped watching cable news and cable news shows 3 years ago. She and Rev. Al might MIGHT just bring me back.

  96. 96.

    Veritas

    Toujoursdan, circa 1820:

    “You have to read Malthus! We’re going to all run out of food soon! It’s based on SCIENCE!

  97. 97.

    toujoursdan

    @Veritas:

    Oh for fuck sake.

    You can’t run road transport on coal. You can’t fly aeroplanes on coal. You can’t power agricultural equipment on coal.

  98. 98.

    Amir Khalid

    @Veritas:
    Even now, people are already cursing Ronald Reagan’s memory because, instead of continuing Carter’s energy policies, he aborted them — thus extending and exacerbating America’s dependence on imported oil from politically unstable countries, and leaving it needlessly beholden to the less than savory characters leading those countries.

  99. 99.

    Cermet

    @Veritas: You still have avoided answeing the simple fact that current demmand has gone down but prices have gone up. Until you explain what President Obama can do to prevent that and what drilling or the keystone project can do, you are full of it and are a worthless troll.

    That stupid asswipe remark on my part was me being such and was not meant to be included in the post … my applogies about that – that was uncalled for (I thought I deleted that but the reference to being an ass part, through was intended… .)

  100. 100.

    gnomedad

    We’re running out of oil. Full stop. Short-term volatility aside, the long-term trend is up. The Invisible Hard will drive it up. That’s how it fucking works. It will not pull more cheap oil out of its Invisible Ass.

  101. 101.

    toujoursdan

    @Veritas:

    I have. You evidently didn’t.

    He said that we would if there weren’t inputs (technology, etc.) that would change the calculus.

    It takes 10 oz of oil to make 1 oz of food and transport it to market. What happens when the cost of oil becomes prohibitive because of your wasteful policies?

  102. 102.

    Hill Dweller

    The troll has yet to explain why gas prices have increased so much in the last few months. It certainly isn’t due to a drop in domestic oil production and/or increase in domestic demand.

  104. 104.

    Veritas

    @toujoursdan:

    Give it up. You’re not going to get your sick totalitarian wet dream of a big, central government rationing out energy cards. I know that’s what you want, and you’re under the illusion you’ll get to be one of the technocratic elite, but it’s not happening.

  105. 105.

    Chyron HR

    Veritas, circa November 8, 2011:

    “Issue 3 will pass. The Personhood Amendmet down in Mississippi will pass. VICTORY!”

    (Except in his case he probably still thinks these things actually happened.)

  106. 106.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @gnomedad: I know you mean well but every time you trot out “peak oil”, yer just providing cover for the parasitic overclass that is picking our pockets at the pump.

    Try to be a little smarter about it.

  107. 107.

    gelfling545

    @schrodinger’s cat: It is just traditional garb from the days when Bishop was the equivalent of nobility in rank and were not infrequently appointed by or with the consent of kings. ((It was considered a good job for a king’s younger brother.) I guess they want to keep their clothing as up to date as their ideas.
    If you refer to the long, white, lacy thing around the neck it is a stole which is supposed to signify the priestly office.

  109. 109.

    Veritas

    Writing in 1974, the Ehrlichs predicted that “we can be reasonably sure . . . that within the next quarter of a century mankind will be looking elsewhere than in oil wells for its main source of energy.” [1] Consequently, “we can also be reasonably sure that the search for alternatives will be a frantic one.” [2] He predicted that proved world oil reserves were no more than 35 years of supply at current demand levels. [3]

    “The energy mini-crisis [of the 1970s],” the Ehrlichs confidently concluded, “illuminated once and for all the hopeless incompetence of our political leaders and our institutions when it comes to coping with fundamental change.” [4] More generally, the Ehrlichs predicted that “America’s economic joyride is coming to an end: there will be no more cheap, abundant energy, no more cheap abundant food.” [5] Thus, “continuing to increase our dependence on petroleum consumption is clearly a suicidal course of action.” [6]

    A quarter century after Ehrlich’s calculation, the world’s proved oil reserves stand at more than 50 percent above year-end 1973 levels despite substantial and ever-increasing consumption in the interim. The 1970s energy “mini-crisis” (seen by the Ehrlichs as “the leading edge of the age of scarcity” for America [7] ) has not been followed by a far greater reckoning as predicted. [8] In fact, the major crises have periodically been for oil producers from falling prices (such as in 1981/82, 1986, and 1998).

  110. 110.

    toujoursdan

    So?

    Do you understand what a logical fallacy is? Getting the dates wrong doesn’t mean it won’t happen at all.

    Explain where an infinite supply of oil that will power our economy will come from? Do you think it’s created by nature (at 89 million barrels a day)? If so, how exactly?

  111. 111.

    TooManyJens

    @Mutaman:

    Melissa Harris-Perry: Isn’t she the one who said that if we ever criticised President Obama, we were racists?

    No, but she was the one who was misrepresented as having said that.

    @TuiMel:

    Probably in minority but not a fan of MHP – nothing agaist her; just found her hard to listen to for an entire hour when she subs for Rachel or lawrence.

    I don’t like her as much in the pre-scripted segments; she’s felt stiff to me the times she’s subbed for Rachel, but that will probably improve with experience. I have been really impressed with her as an interviewer, and as someone who can think on her feet when news is happening during the live show.

  113. 113.

    SIA

    @JPL, if you see this, I wanted to express my condolences to your family regarding your mother in law. A wonderful age she was.

  115. 115.

    Veritas

    @toujoursdan:

    When will The Great Reckoning occour, toujoursdan? Are you already getting a stiffie at the thought of mass starvation and mass unemployment, followed by central government rationing? I know that’s your sick wet dream.

  117. 117.

    WyldPirate

    @toujoursdan: @toujoursdan:

    You can’t run road transport on coal. You can fly aeroplanes on coal. You can’t power agricultural equipment on coal.

    Sure you can through coal gasification and other processes. Probably can’t produce enough volume to support consumption rates today, but it can be done

  118. 118.

    sb

    @Veritas: There are those who believe that here at Balloon Juice, contrary opinions are met with unnecessary invective, that groupthink takes over and the individual person expressing the contrary opinion gets ‘ganged up’ on and that this reflects badly on the site and its users.

    But with regard to your post, other than “fuck off, asshole”, what else should be said in response? So, Veritas, while recognizing you have an opinion and recognizing that your comment is probably just a bad joke to piss off those of a different political bent, I teach a lot of kids you blithely call “welfare babies” and I’ll take the character and integrity of those kids and their families over you any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I mean, who could say such a thing? Assholes, that’s who.

    So, fuck off, asshole.

  119. 119.

    Veritas

    @toujoursdan:

    BTW, we continue to discover more oil and natural gas every year through exploration, Chicken Little predictions not withstanding.

    The tar sands and the North Dakota oil fields are a blessing and a boon for everyone involved. Of course not for you. Because you hate cheap energy, because cheap energy means no big central government to direct and ration use.

    The Great Proletarian Revolution didn’t quite pan out so now the international left is hoping for a Communist revolution based on environmental problems.

  121. 121.

    trollhattan

    Jesus, somebody take away this guy’s giant, giant can ‘o Folgers. He’s waving around this shiny new (i.e., decades old) Republican talking point as though he’s strutting into TGI Fridays with a supermodel on his arm.

    It’s…unseemly.

  122. 122.

    WaterGirl

    @handsmile: And you are very funny this morning! I mean, like, totally. :-)

    I did like Jeff Greenfield’s “arthur murray ballroom dance” analogy as an explanation for mittens. Other than that, he seemed like the blah blah blah old white guy on the show, which (thankfully) we don’t see very often.

    On the other hand, I really liked Wallace Shawn and loved the clip they showed from murphy brown. Yikes, that had to hurt if you were a politician seeing your reality exposed like that.

    Absolutely loved Alexis Goldstein from Occupy the SEC. That was inspirational.

    I had the thought last week that if some terrible even occurred in this country, the TV person I would want to hear it from would be Chris Hayes. For me, he is the new Walter Cronkite.

    Just this morning I was thinking how he is the anti-Fluffy, and how awesome it would be if MTP could go back to being a panel-based show, with Chris Hayes, Rachel and Harris-Perry on the panel. As it is, I haven’t watched a Sunday show (except UP) since Fluffy took over.

  123. 123.

    some guy

    The tar sands and the North Dakota oil fields are a blessing and a boon for everyone involved.

    man is this troll stupid. It was North Dakota REPUBLICANS who helped kill Keystone XL.

    keep flailing, dimwit

  124. 124.

    gnomedad

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    I know you mean well but every time you trot out “peak oil”, yer just providing cover for the parasitic overclass that is picking our pockets at the pump.

    Villains may be picking our pockets, but defeating them, while worthwhile, will not affect the long-term reality that energy is going to be more expensive. The sooner everyone realizes that, the better.

  125. 125.

    toujoursdan

    @Veritas:

    When it happens it will be a tragedy, which is why I think we should have followed Carter’s energy policies and started a national conservation program and transition to alternative energies back in the 1970s, instead of doing nothing.

    Now about those 4.79 years worth of crude oil on American soil. How exactly will drill everywhere lead you to nirvana?

    And if there are no limits to oil production, how is this infinite supply of oil created? Care to respond in detail or will you continue to dodge?

  126. 126.

    gnomedad

    Shorter Veritas: Gosh, the bottle is bigger than we realized! We can keep drinking out of it forever!

  131. 131.

    some guy

    @FlipYrWhig:

    funny how the VICTORY troll was curiously absent after the South Carolina primary. doubt he’ll be around much after the Michigan primary, either.

  134. 134.

    Soonergrunt

    @some guy:

    man is this troll stupid. It was North Dakota REPUBLICANS who helped kill Keystone XL

    Along with Kansas republicans and Nebraska republicans. It seems people from agricultural states don’t want millions of barrels of toxic wastes transported over the land on which they make their living. And especially the ND republicans who don’t want a pipeline from Canada undercutting the value the oil in North Dakota.

  135. 135.

    toujoursdan

    @Veritas:

    ROFL. Oh yes. The Young Earth Creationism of energy. Find a real petroleum engineer who believes this crap. Dare ya.

    The first line of your link says it all:

    Abiogenic petroleum origin is a largely abandoned hypothesis that was proposed as an alternative to theory of biological petroleum origin.

    Try reading for comprehension.

  136. 136.

    Cain

    @Cermet:

    @Veritas: You are either stupid or a troll – drilling a new field takes years; bringing in a few successful wells to fully map out the best areas a number more, and finally, drilling enough wells to tap and create a good return even more – timeline: 5 – 12 years. You may be stupid but being a troll is what you are acting like.

    The guy is a troll. He’s enjoying all the attention y’all are giving him. Every response is a victory. Why do you people not learn? He’s not even a real conservative. He’s just googling shit on the internet to post on here.

  138. 138.

    Ella in New Mexico

    @Veritas:

    No, I want low, low gas prices. The only people on this thread calling for higher prices are liberals and “progressives”.

    No you DO want higher gas prices—regardless of what they do to the average American—because you stooopidly think that no one will figure out what’s going on and therefore blame it on Obama and vote for Santurdum or Gangreeenich or Rump Roast instead.

    And this is because, like all core Republicans, you are a sociopath who would drown his own grandmother in the bathtub in order to win an election—but doesn’t give a rats ass about actually governing.

  139. 139.

    Veritas

    @toujoursdan:

    And it was all those Real Scientists(tm) who said we’d be shivering in the dark by 1990.

    What’s your solution? Let me guess: it involves central planning and rationing.

  140. 140.

    Jennifer

    @Veritas: Yeah, that’s why only the dumb geologists believe in your horseshit theory:

    Most geologists now consider the abiogenic formation of petroleum scientifically unsupported.[1] The abiogenic origin of petroleum has also recently been reviewed in detail by Glasby, who raises a number of objections, including that there is no direct evidence to date of abiogenic petroleum (liquid crude oil and long-chain hydrocarbon compounds).[1]

    That’s from your link, troll.

  142. 142.

    Veritas

    @Jennifer:

    Yes, and Most Geologists(tm) said we’d run out of oil by 1995.

    I don’t believe these horseshit predictions and estimates, because they’ve turned out to be seriously off in the past.

  143. 143.

    Soonergrunt

    @Veritas: pssst–the earth is spherical. It’s a closed vessel. Once we use up the oil inside the earth, there’s none left after that. Oil is not the renewable resource that Larry Kudlow’s cocaine is.

  144. 144.

    Evergreen (formerly Betsy, forever ago)

    Since this is allegedly an open thread, I will post this very pressing political question:

    Is it normal to have to RSVP to a wedding a full four months before the blessed day? That seems excessive.

  146. 146.

    Cain

    @boss bitch:

    I’m actually impressed with MHP. I stopped watching cable news and cable news shows 3 years ago. She and Rev. Al might MIGHT just bring me back.

    Don’t bother, what we want is a destruction of corporate media. Your eyeballs still pays to keep the other lunatics salary.

    Die media, die.

  147. 147.

    gnomedad

    @Jennifer:

    Yeah, that’s why only the dumb geologists believe in your horseshit theory:

    Plus, it doesn’t ultimately matter where petroleum comes from; if we use it faster than it’s being created, we will run out.

  152. 152.

    Veritas

    @toujoursdan:

    Yes, silly me, I look at past failed predictions and make conclusions from them. I guess because armageddeon hasn’t come YET that doesn’t mean I should automatically discount the Jehova’s Witnesses. It’ll come SOMEDAY!

  153. 153.

    Veritas

    And still waiting for your prefered solution to the “problem”. I’m guessing it involved central planning, a government-run economy, and government rationing. Surprise, surprise–the same things the left always wants. Energy and the environment is just a fig-leaf for the same goals you’ve had since 1848.

  154. 154.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @gnomedad: We’ll never be able to stop them from stealing from us as long as you peak oil idiots keep shitting yourselves every time they pull off a short term heist.

  156. 156.

    Yutsano

    Things I learned randomly on the internet today: Nathan Fillon is Canuckistani.

    Just when I couldn’t get even more jealous of RedKitteh…

    @Evergreen (formerly Betsy, forever ago): Either the espoused are extremely organized to the point of anal retentiveness or they’re planning on a cost that needs an exact headcount this far out. My guess is the latter.

  158. 158.

    Hill Dweller

    Still waiting on the troll to explain the recent increase in gas prices, despite no increase in domestic demand nor decrease in domestic production.

  159. 159.

    Cain

    @boss bitch:

    It’s because it is cheap entertainment. It’s like playing whack-a-mole at a showbiz pizza place. The guy moves from topic to topic as soon as he loses ground in one.

    It only makes the responder stupid when they engage this guy. On the other hand, nothing else is going on this thread. I remember when we had real conservatives showing up and try to argue, that was fun. This guy has no convictions. You can’t even smack him around.

  160. 160.

    toujoursdan

    @Veritas:

    Yes, and the environment is so much better than it was in 1848 (except that it isn’t.)

    And I haven’t said anything about central planning. That’s your red herring, sweatpea.

  161. 161.

    Soonergrunt

    @Evergreen (formerly Betsy, forever ago): That depends upon several factors. How big of a ceremony and reception are being planned? I can bet that if the Bride’s family is trying to get close approximations of costs for facility size, catering, etc; that four months just might be right. Particularly for invitees who are expected to be part of the Wedding Party.

  162. 162.

    trollhattan

    @Soonergrunt:

    Oil is not the renewable resource that noted petroleum scientist writing in peer-reviewed geological publication of record, “The National Review” Larry Kudlow’s cocaine is.

    fxt

  163. 163.

    Veritas

    @Hill Dweller:

    I’ll be sure to increase my personal consumption as much as possible, if nothing more than to piss off slaver, totalitarian shitheads like the PEEAAAK OIIIIL!11!1 crowd.

  164. 164.

    some guy

    Shorter MiitensBot Troll: I demand you answer my poorly framed question, and if you don’t then I win.

    maybe he should go back to predicting VICTORY for Mittens, at least he will definitely win something, some day, somewhere.

  166. 166.

    Jennifer

    @Veritas: Just because in 40 years oil reserves that were previously undiscovered have been found doesn’t mean that it was magically produced in those 40 years. People just went looking for it in places where it’s harder to get to – places they didn’t need to look in before when the easy-to-extract reserves were meeting demand.

    Riddle me this, dipshit – if your theory is correct, how come Oklahoma isn’t a big oil-producing state like it was back in the 20s & 30s? If oil is constantly being produced by magical physical rather than biological earth forces, how come places that have been tapped out remain tapped out?

  167. 167.

    toujoursdan

    @Veritas:

    Because conservatism has no ideas or solutions and doesn’t give a shit about the next generation. It’s all about hippie punching.

  169. 169.

    Veritas

    Oh, and I don’t care about the environment. That’s right–I don’t give a shit about the environment, at least not the environment because its the environment.

    The earth has been around billions of years and will do just fine.

    I care about us. Caribou and polar bears can fuck off and die for all I care.

  171. 171.

    toujoursdan

    @Veritas:

    Sure. Because all the dirty stuff was outsourced to the 3rd world. Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean it has gone away.

    Now what about deforestation, desertification, pollution in the developing world, poisoning of groundwater, pollution of the oceans, collapse of the fisheries, poisoning of prime farmland from the overuse of fertilizers, eroding top soil, draining of the aquifers in the west, etc.

  173. 173.

    Veritas

    @toujoursdan:

    Tell us your solution, Oh High and Mighty Carer of the Next Generation.

    Some of you guys seriously need to get a real religion. You’re not atheists, you just believe in the utopian Leftist Religion of the moment. For a while it was Communism, now its Environmentalism. You even have your own special eschatology and apocalypse (The Glorious Proletarian World Revolution leading us towards Communism in one case, Peak Oil leading us to The Green Economy in the other).

  174. 174.

    some guy

    by “us” the troll means the 1% who rule the world and steal from the other 99%.

    this is why Mittens VICTORY is assured.

    sorry to state the obvious.

  176. 176.

    Veritas

    Now what about deforestation, desertification, pollution in the developing world, poisoning of groundwater, pollution of the oceans, collapse of the fisheries, poisoning of prime farmland from the overuse of fertilizers, eroding top soil, draining of the aquifers in the west, etc.

    Clearly, human beings need to 1) have a mass die off or 2) go back to before the industrial revolution or 3) some combination of both, amirite?

  181. 181.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Suffern ACE:

    Are you thinking of Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH by any chance? It was made into a very good animated film called The Secret of NIMH although for some reason they changed Mrs. Frisby’s name to Mrs. Brisby. There are some similarities with The Borrowers.

  183. 183.

    Hill Dweller

    @Veritas: Your pettiness and vindictiveness were established long ago. No one disputes that at this point. But you still haven’t explained why gas prices have risen so sharply in the last few months, despite no domestic rise in demand nor drop in domestic production.

  184. 184.

    Jennifer

    @Veritas: You can’t care about “us” as in “humanity” (though I’m not sure we should include you in that category) without caring about the environment. If you completely shit the nest, Newt’s moon colony isn’t going to save you or anyone else.

  188. 188.

    S. cerevisiae

    @Veritas: You do know that YOU also have to live in this environment, but you likely have no kids or grandkids so like I said it’s all “party on dudes!”

    I met plenty of people like you when I was younger, most of them got better.

  190. 190.

    Veritas

    @S. cerevisiae:

    Uh, I do actually have two grown children.

    Of course if toujoursdan got his way we’d have a China-esque one child policy complete with forced abortions and mandatory sterilizations.

  191. 191.

    Veritas

    @toujoursdan:

    Do your duty to Mother Earth. Kill yourself in a carbon-neutral manner. And get as many environmentalists to go with you.

    If you really believed your own horseshit, that’s what you’d do.

  192. 192.

    Evergreen (formerly Betsy, forever ago)

    @Yutsano: @Soonergrunt:

    Mmm, you make excellent points. I think the invite list is going to be between 200 and 300 people? Which would mean an actual guest list of about 150-225. That seems like a huge wedding to me (mine had a whopping 65 attendees) but I don’t know if it’s huge according to the standards of the Wedding Industrial Complex.

  194. 194.

    Veritas

    @toujoursdan:

    And shouldn’t you turn off your computer? You’re contributing to Global Warming the longer you leave it on! Think of the polar bears!

  195. 195.

    some guy

    Uh, I do actually have two grown children.

    you do realize that Mickey and Minnie are imaginary characters, don’t you?

  196. 196.

    some guy

    But you still haven’t explained why gas prices have risen so sharply in the last few months, despite no domestic rise in demand nor drop in domestic production.

    he was assured there would be no math involved.

  199. 199.

    Jennifer

    @Veritas: Oh, fuck you. You’ve spent this whole thread making vile and unfounded accusations that wouldn’t even make sense to a stupid person. No one has even said anything about population control, and here you are now accusing people of supporting forced abortions and mandatory sterilization.

    You’re the equivalent of the toddler who scoops up his own poop to play with it and smears it all over the walls. Not even bright enough to figure out that all you’re accomplishing is making yourself smell like shit.

  200. 200.

    Veritas

    toujoursdan probably burns down car dealerships and firebombs new home developments in his spare time.

  202. 202.

    Veritas

    @Jennifer:

    Oh no, he didn’t SAY anything about it…he just heavily implied it with the 7 billion people remark. He doesn’t have the balls to follow his beliefs to their logical conclusion, or at least doesn’t have the balls to state what that conclusion is.

    If you really believe the Earth can’t support 7 billion people, if you honestly believe that, then the only solution is to cull billions of people while sterilizing a good portion of the rest.

  204. 204.

    toujoursdan

    @Veritas:

    It is a victory when I’ve reduced the village idiot to rocking in the corner, sucking his thumb and ranting about what he think dirty hippies do.

    (All I mentioned was Carter’s conservation policy and transitioning to alternatives. The rest is YOUR projection.)

  205. 205.

    some guy

    from the reviews I have read the Miyazaki film is based on “The Borrowers” movie, but is a closer adaptation of the original novel.

  206. 206.

    Veritas

    There’s another solution, if you accept his logic: cosign whoever is left to a life of grinding, pre-industrial poverty.

    Of course he’ll never come out and say these things, but he’s little enviroweenie coward and he knows his ideas are unpopular among anyone who doesn’t hate humanity like he does.

  209. 209.

    Veritas

    @toujoursdan:

    Ok, so since the Earth can’t support 7 billion people (and not just 7 billion people living an industrialized, developed lifestyle, but AT ALL) what do we do about it?

  211. 211.

    some guy

    well, firebombing new home developments would certainly be one way to get the housing crisis under control.

  215. 215.

    some guy

    Veritas,

    was the college tuition for little Mickie and Minnie very high, or did they get an all-expenses free ride to Hamburger University?

    do you visit them on their days off down at the Magic Kingdom?You must be ever so proud of all they have accomplished.

  216. 216.

    Veritas

    @toujoursdan:

    Sustainability and preindustrial poverty are two completely different things, is Orwellian Newspeak for preindustrial poverty, pookie, counterrevolutionary scum.

    FTFY.

  218. 218.

    Jennifer

    @Veritas: No, asswipe, that’s NOT the “only solution”, though thanks for once again proving that conservatives are so dim-witted that they can’t conceive of any new ideas.

    We could cut population world-wide by offering people who agree to have only one child certain things – incentives like “if you only have one, we’ll provide education & healthcare for that one. If you have more than one, you’re on your own.” People would still have the freedom to choose to have more than one but a fair number would agree to the one-only policy voluntarily.

    Of course we can’t do that, because first of all it would require spending some of the money that Paris Hilton needs to keep so she can buy another $40,000 handbag on the “parasites” and at the same time, would reduce the size of the workforce leaving corporations with less power over workers. Which is why Republicans were so tempted by the birth control crap – more people than jobs tends to work in the favor of corporations and the people who own them.

  220. 220.

    toujoursdan

    Now about those 4.79 years worth of crude oil on American soil. How exactly will drill now, drill everywhere lead us to nirvana?

    And if there are no limits to oil production, how is this infinite supply of oil created? Care to explain how oil grows on rocks?

  222. 222.

    some guy

    Who is going to make sure everyone is living a “sustainable” lifestyle?

    Why the Politburo of the Central Committee of the Communist Party, naturally. who else would, or could?

  223. 223.

    Veritas

    @some guy:

    Why the Politburo of the Central Committee of the Communist Party, naturally. who else would, or could

    I know you’re think you’re making fun of me, but this is essentially what the greenies want. Of course it would be called something else, but the idea is similar.

    Ration. Plan. Control.

  224. 224.

    toujoursdan

    @Veritas: Tax and economic incentives for smaller families (or not having kids at all), economic incentives for urban farming, real recycling, repair instead of throw away, are certainly a good start.

  226. 226.

    toujoursdan

    Are you going to explain how exactly will drill now, drill everywhere lead us to nirvana when there are only 4.79 years of oil on American soil?

    And if there are no limits to oil production, how is this infinite supply of oil created? Care to explain how oil grows on rocks?

    Or are you going to continue to dodge this in the cowardly way we have become accustomed to?

  227. 227.

    Veritas

    Tax and economic incentives for smaller families (or not having kids at all)

    This is exactly who the Chinese One Child Policy started. It ended with forced abortions, infanticide, and mandatory sterilizations. How “progressive”.

  228. 228.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Veritas:

    I know you’re think you’re making fun of me, but this is essentially what the greenies want. Of course it would be called something else, but the idea is similar.

    Do “the greenies” want to put contraceptives in the water as a means of population control?

  230. 230.

    toujoursdan

    @Veritas:

    We’re not Chinese and we already use tax and economic incentives to create social goods. Providing grants and loans to go to university hasn’t led to forced higher education yet.

  231. 231.

    Soonergrunt

    @Evergreen (formerly Betsy, forever ago): Mine had two guests, and I didn’t know either of them. The minister had to call a neighbor over to sign the marriage license as witness with his wife. I’d given the minister my last $40, so we had KFC that night in the hotel on her credit card.

  233. 233.

    WyldPirate

    @Peter: ban him for encouraging suicide? Are you kidding?

    whiny-ass titty baby screams for blog daddy cuz conservative shows up and makes pathetic argument. Unbelievable.

  235. 235.

    Amir Khalid

    @Veritas:
    I followed your NRO link. Larry Kudlow says there’s maybe a trillion barrels of oil still in the ground worldwide. Using tojoursdan’s numbers from #76, that would mean the world has
    1 trillion bbl / 89 million bpd = 112,356 days = roughly 300 years
    which, even if true, is not infinite.

    But Kudlow’s not a geologist himself, and for all we know that might just be a wild guess. Maybe Kudlow pulled that very optimistic estimate from Uranus or his, I don’t know.

  236. 236.

    some guy

    Care to explain how oil grows on rocks?

    Just because Our VICTORY Clown thinks oil grows on rocks is no reason to chide him. Nor mock him for his innumeracy, his fictional grown children, or his unwavering belief in all things Mittens.

    clearly, your membership in the Obambi-Stalin Fan Club has twisted your sense of decency and humanity.

  237. 237.

    Veritas

    @WyldPirate:

    I didn’t even “encourage” suicide, I was taking the chicken little crowd’s dumb ass logic to its obvious conclusion: humanity is a blight on the planet and must die for Mother Earth.

  241. 241.

    dmsilev

    @Veritas: The first fucking sentences of that link: “Abiogenic petroleum origin is a largely abandoned hypothesis that was proposed as an alternative to theory of biological petroleum origin. It was relatively popular in the past, but it became largely forgotten at the end of the 20th century after it failed to predict the location of new wells.[1]”

    Troll fail.

    Do you think we’ll ever reach Peak Troll?

  242. 242.

    toujoursdan

    @Veritas: Who said that?

    Conservatives are so simple minded. Everything is binary thinking: If it isn’t black, it must be white. No wonder they’ve run out of ideas and are left having temper tantrums when their talking points fall apart.

  244. 244.

    Veritas

    And both you and Jennifer do realize that the population of the Earth is going to decline naturally by the middle of this century?

  248. 248.

    Jennifer

    @Veritas: In a lot of ways humanity IS a blight on the planet, and it will die for Mother Earth if it comes to that.

    I don’t have any concern for the Earth but I do have a concern with for an Earth conducive to human habitation, which we can control one way or the other. If we choose to just go on without giving any thought to it, the Earth will wipe us out and go on. It will survive. We won’t.

  249. 249.

    Veritas

    I think if oil is finite we’ll survive just as we survived Peak Wood and Peak Whale Blubber–by a combination of market-driving technology and increasing efficiency.

  252. 252.

    SIA

    @SIA: On further reading, I would like to relocate my message of condolence to JPL to the next open thread and away from this fucking wasteland of a conversation.

    Fuck.

  254. 254.

    Jennifer

    @Veritas: I don’t think anyone is predicting a decline, but rather a leveling off and stabilization.

    But only an idiot would argue that stabilization at 10 or 12 billion is a better situation than a voluntary decline to 4 or 5 billion. Even the math-impaired should have no problem grasping the concept that with fewer people there’s more resources to go around.

  255. 255.

    Svensker

    @Veritas:

    I could care less about contraception. In fact it should be put into the water supply in certain neighborhoods so we have fewer welfare babies.

    Why do you hate Sarah Palin and her friends so much?

  258. 258.

    Veritas

    1. Short term: drilling, increasing efficiency

    2. Long-term: Nuclear power and economically viable electric cars

    3. Longer-term: Nuclear fusion

    Beats having the Green Soviet order you to have a “sustainable” lifestyle.

  259. 259.

    toujoursdan

    @Veritas: Except that on a finite planet, there are only finite energy resources.

    It’s a fool’s bargain to use up a resource assuming that the next will come along to take its place.

    I bet you gamble away your entire paycheque every week too. After all there will always be another.

  263. 263.

    toujoursdan

    @Veritas:

    Ahhh yes, nuclear power, based on another (even more scarce) finite resource – uranium. Brilliant.

    And fusion, which is always just around the corner. Always.

    Even if both pan out, where are the electric airplanes and farm equipment?

  265. 265.

    toujoursdan

    @Veritas:

    Except that the issue isn’t how many bodies there are on the planet, but how much each body consumes. An American family of 4 consumes and produces more far waste than a West African family of 20.

    So as people adopt western lifestyles (and consumption rates) they may have fewer kids (because kids are expensive in western economies), but each kid will consume several times more finite resources and produce several times more waste than they did before they adopted the industrial lifestyle, so the problem will become worse, rather than better.

    That’s why I don’t believe it will just correct itself and tax and economic incentives are needed.

  267. 267.

    Veritas

    @toujoursdan:

    And if those tax and economic incentives don’t work, there’s always brute force backed by the state.

    After all, it will be for our own good. Right?

  268. 268.

    toujoursdan

    @Veritas:

    Won’t solve the problem since the recycle rate isn’t anywhere near 100%. Definitely won’t solve the problem if the entire planet has to transition to uranium.

    Got anything else?

  270. 270.

    Soonergrunt

    @Evergreen (formerly Betsy, forever ago): I had inadvertently locked my keys in my truck right before we were supposed to leave the hotel for the minister’s house. We called the Sheriff, and they sent a deputy to unlock the truck with a slim jim. He stated that there must be something about getting married because I was the third guy getting married that day who’d locked his keys in his car, and the second one at that hotel.

  272. 272.

    Svensker

    @Veritas:

    Ever heard of breeder reactors?

    How does that fit in with the bishops’ birth control plans?

    I really don’t get why you come here. If you were actually desirous of conversation and hoped to change some minds, you wouldn’t start off by saying “Obambi”. So, you’re not serious about engaging…then why are you here? Do you get your rocks off being “shocking”? Do you think you’re speaking truth to power and we’ll all be amazed by your unassailable brilliance and come to our senses? Or that we’ll feel hurt and upset and secretly realize you’re right and feel bad about continuing to be liberals?

    Really, what do you feel you’re accomplishing, for yourself or anyone else?

  275. 275.

    Kolohe

    Things never before heard on a Sunday politics show: “See what happens when you invite a theologian to the table.”

    Russert used to have the Archbishop of Washington on all the time, but I guess he wasn’t telling people what they wanted to hear.

  277. 277.

    Evergreen (formerly Betsy, forever ago)

    @Soonergrunt:
    This story keeps getting better and better.

    I cannot match it. We just had a smallish backyard wedding at my mom’s house. There was good food, drink, and company. The only noteworthy aspect is that I’d really hoped for an outdoor ceremony, but it was raining most of the day. About an hour before the wedding, the rain stopped, the clouds parted (no joke) and the sun shown down. Half an hour after the ceremony had ended, the rain returned.

  278. 278.

    WaterGirl

    Wow. A quick search gives me 74 comments by veritas and 93 replies that included “@veritas”.

    Veritas 1
    Balloon Juice 0

    Whatever happened to ignoring trolls so they will go away? Has everybody lost their collective minds today?

    Somebody might a well front page the guy; at this rate, he already controls what we’re talking about.

  282. 282.

    toujoursdan

    @Veritas: Except that it’s not economical to use, which is why there aren’t Thorium reactors on every street corner. Such reactors take years to build and cost millions (and like nuclear, need taxpayer support.)

    So it would make sense to provide incentives to conserve as much oil as possible (as Carter did) and use alternative “green” technology and fuels, at least until the technology advances to make these economically practical, wouldn’t it genius?

    But, nope, your solution seems to be “Hummers for everyone because it pisses off hippies. Drill everywhere. It doesn’t matter whether the land is sensitive and drilling won’t change anything. Besides, nothing to worry about here. Oil grows on rocks!”

    That’s conservatism for you.

  283. 283.

    Soonergrunt

    @Evergreen (formerly Betsy, forever ago): That is awesome. It’s almost like you were destined to marry on that day, outside at that time.

    I didn’t even meet my in-laws until about a year after my son was born. He was conceived on the wedding night and born full term 40 weeks to the day after.

    So we get back to the hotel, and call my parents and tell them that we got married. They were completely unsurprised (and had set several things in motion to set up and host a reception the next day) which was amazing considering that I didn’t even think to ask her to marry me until the night before we did it. Apparently we both had this ‘look’ to us. So then I tell my new wife “we have to call your parents” and she told me that there was a problem because she had never even told them that she’d met somebody, let alone that she was taking leave to visit him in Missouri instead of going home to California. So she calls home, and her dad answers and she says “Daddy, there’s someone here who needs to tell you something” and hands me the phone. I just glared at her, but she just looked at me like “what?” and said “There’s no way in hell I’m telling him.” so I cleared my throat and said “Sir, My name is … and yesterday afternoon at 4:30 PM in Kansas City, Missouri, I married your daughter.”
    There was dead silence for about ten seconds.
    And then he asked “and how do you spell your name?”
    My In-laws and I get along famously.

  285. 285.

    Veritas

    @toujoursdan:

    There aren’t thorium reactors on every corner because…wait for it…uranium reactors are cheaper right now because uranium has a lower initial cost. In a hypothetical world of decreasing uranium supplies (far off in the future, we’ve already discovered far more uranium than we thought we had) this advantage would lessen.

    I know a world of cheap and plentiful energy is your worst nightmare because it threatens your totalitarian wet dream of the Green Soviet, but get used to it. In 200 years we’ll be using petroleum at the rate we currently use firewood and whale blubber, because something better will have replaced it.

  287. 287.

    toujoursdan

    @Veritas:

    “There aren’t thorium reactors on every corner because…wait for it…uranium reactors are cheaper right now because uranium has a lower initial cost. In a hypothetical world of decreasing uranium supplies (far off in the future, we’ve already discovered far more uranium than we thought we had) this advantage would lessen.”

    ——————————————

    No kidding. That’s exactly what I said.

    But the problem, genius, is that the higher startup and operating cost of this new energy source would be passed on to the customer and ripple and reverberate through the economy making everyone and every company a bit poorer, now wouldn’t it?

    Perhaps improving technology would make this cost differential go away, so in the meantime we should conserve oil (as it is still relatively cheap) until thorium is cheap enough to replace oil as a commercially viable energy source and we can retool an entire world economy to run on it (which introduces a list of other problems). Got it this time?

    But your response is still “Hummer for everyone! Who cares about economic dislocation later?”

  288. 288.

    Karl The Crap Blog Detective

    @Svensker:
    I don’t think it’s a meaningful question. There’s no “why” to it, because it can’t really have anything recognisable as thought or motivation in a way human beings understand it.

  290. 290.

    Veritas

    “Economic dislocation”. Oh noes. Market corrections? Creative destruction? TEH HORROR! We need a Gosplan to get rid of those!

  291. 291.

    Bruce S

    “on any other cable news show discussing the religious implications of birth control and women, the panelist would have been male.”

    Chris Hayes just prior to Perry’s brand new show is also excellent and rich with discussion and insight not seen on other shows, including most of the weeknight MSNBC lineup.

    I posted their great discussion contrasting the Big Romney and the Little Romney here:

    http://titanicsailsatdawn.blogspot.com/2012/02/george-romneys-prodigal-son-ii.html

  294. 294.

    Veritas

    Question: if we hypothetically had an unlimited supply of oil, would you care about what kind of car people drove then? Would it get you all up in arms if everyone DID buy a big SUV if gas was unlimited? Or do you hate the very idea of cheap and abundant energy because then people are free to live how they want?

  295. 295.

    Veritas

    @toujoursdan:

    It’s not for “no reason”. If they start becoming poorer they’ll make different decisions eventually. That’s why Hummer isn’t around anymore for example.

  296. 296.

    toujoursdan

    @Veritas: If we could hypothetically suspend the law of gravity, I’d be okay of people could fly if they wanted to as well.

    You’re all about living in a fantasyland and using projection, aren’t you?

  297. 297.

    Veritas

    @toujoursdan:

    Again, you hate the very idea of cheap energy. Because then there’s no reason to have a centrally planned economy, and the only way to bring that about since the Great Proletarian Revolution didn’t quite work out is to create an environmental scare.

  298. 298.

    toujoursdan

    @Veritas:

    Of course it’s no reason. There is no reason we have to waste oil.

    (And genius, petroleum isn’t just used for fuel. It’s used for medicines, in fertilizers, in manufacturing, etc. So using it up isn’t a good idea anyway.)

  300. 300.

    Veritas

    @toujoursdan:

    Projection of what? I don’t give two shits how you live. If you want to go off the grid into some cabin in Montana like the Unabomber and cut yourself off from civilization because you believe industrial society is evil, be my guest.

    But don’t try to seize control of the power of the state to force everyone to live that way for a phony reason.

  301. 301.

    toujoursdan

    @Veritas: Where have I once advocated the power of the state to force anyone to do anything?

    Give me the post # where I advocated that right now or admit that it’s a strawman, troll.

  302. 302.

    Bruce S

    Omigod – Veritas must be some clown trying to make me think so-called “conservatives” are even more nonsensical and brain-dead than I already assumed they were. Either this is a put-on or the bar has been driven, against all odds, even lower – which means they’re now digging down about as deep as it takes to strike oil.

  303. 303.

    WaterGirl

    @Soonergrunt: I didn’t say trolls shouldn’t get to post, I just can’t understand why folks participate in derailing the thread with all this back-and-forth with trolls.

  306. 306.

    Veritas

    Utopian Leftist projects *always* end with the Terror and the Gulag. Fucking *always*, ever since the first one known as the French Revolution.

  308. 308.

    dww44

    @surlygurl: Yep watch them both.

    And, a bit of dilemma for me personally as I am having to choose between CBS Sunday Morning,which I’ve long watched and both Up with Chris Hayes and MLP’s show. Today the CBS show had the living grandson of President John Tyler on who’s 84. Both of the antecedents of the living Tyler , i.e his father and grandfather, had beaucoup kids by two wives. The grandfather was 63 when Harrison’s father was born, and Harrison’s father was 75 when Harrison was born.

  309. 309.

    Bruce S

    Is there a “Godwins’ law” for when moronic, intellectually cowardly reactionaries reach to invoke Stalinism in their pretending to reasoned contentions (as opposed to insane hysterics) over mainstream liberal policies – or even European social democracy for that matter? There should be. The discussion needs to just stop when some dip-shit…uh… dips this deep into his shit.

  310. 310.

    toujoursdan

    @Veritas: And Conservative projects always end with terror and the death camps (especially if you’re a minority). Fucking always since World War II.

    (You do realize that the Founding Fathers got their ideas from the French Revolution.)

  311. 311.

    toujoursdan

    @Veritas: I know it’s metaphor stupid. Where I have invoked coercion in any of my posts? I’m still waiting for a post number where I wrote that.

    Give me the number or admit that it’s a strawman.

  312. 312.

    Karl The Crap Blog Detective

    @toujoursdan:
    You do realise you aren’t talking to a real person, right?… You are just feeding inputs into simple algorithm that repeats on a loop.

  314. 314.

    Bruce S

    In other Conservative Clown Car news, Rick Santorum has taken a swan-dive into the abyss of deciding who is Christian and who isn’t. This guy certainly has the credentials to operate some mega-church for folks whose intellectual or psychological weaknesses crave the solace of “biblical inerrancy” or terminal self-righteousness, but he’s proven himself not fit to be a political candidate on the national stage. Ricky’s nothing more than a deranged little man wrapped in delusions of Theocratic Grandeur.

  316. 316.

    toujoursdan

    @Amir Khalid:

    This may be theoretically the case, but it’s unlikely the economics will ever support getting most of out of the ground. If the start-up and operating costs for retrieving oil render $400/barrel or $500/barrel oil, it will never come out of the earth. By then oil will be too expensive to power the economy and people will have transitioned to something else (alternatives, or back to brute manpower.)

  317. 317.

    Evergreen (formerly Betsy, forever ago)

    @Soonergrunt:
    Awwww. That is fantastic. I like this story.

    I just realized in my previous post I made a heinous misspelling, but c’est la vie.

  318. 318.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Soonergrunt:

    The symptoms are remarkably similar, no?

    Explosive diarrhea – check.
    Regurgitation of the same icky nastiness over and over and over again – check
    Pain in the gut – check
    Prayerful wish that all this stuff would just GO.AWAY – check

  319. 319.

    terry

    it’s cute Veritas thinks the oil belongs to “us”.

    it belongs to the multinational oil companies. and they can sell it to whomever they choose. Namely, China.

    we could get protectionist, but that’d be socialist and i hear on the tv machine that’s against jesus.

  322. 322.

    Egg Berry

    Wow! Way to distract the troll so the rest of us can read the intelligent commentary in the next two threads!

  323. 323.

    dww44

    @Hill Dweller:

    I’m glad MSNBC gave Maddow, Hayes and MHP their own shows,

    ..

    I’m glad, too, but I also think that their presence, particularly Maddow’s, has made Chris Matthews more progressive and more tolerable, although he still tends to annoyingly interrut his guests. And Ed Schultz’s progressive populism, while sometimes too in your face, provides a needed antidote to his counterparts on the right. And, frankly, to folks like Chuck Todd and David Gregory on his own network as well. No equivocation with our Mr. Ed.

  324. 324.

    dww44

    @Mutaman: I can’t say for sure not, but she’s simply not that sort of political pundit or guest. She supports Obama, but she’s very measured and very intellectual. That sort of remark doesn’t jibe with my observations of the sort of thing she would ever say on TeeVee or anywhere else.

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