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Sadly, there is no cure for stupid.

Do not shrug your shoulders and accept the normalization of untruths.

Hot air and ill-informed banter

President Musk and Trump are both poorly raised, coddled 8 year old boys.

One of our two political parties is a cult whose leader admires Vladimir Putin.

There are a lot more evil idiots than evil geniuses.

Bad people in a position to do bad things will do bad things because they are bad people. End of story.

🎶 Those boots were made for mockin’ 🎵

Not so fun when the rabbit gets the gun, is it?

She burned that motherfucker down, and I am so here for it. Thank you, Caroline Kennedy.

Why is it so hard for them to condemn hate?

Live so that if you miss a day of work people aren’t hoping you’re dead.

The real work of an opposition party is to hold the people in power accountable.

Perhaps you mistook them for somebody who gives a damn.

You come for women, you’re gonna get your ass kicked.

Tide comes in. Tide goes out. You can’t explain that.

I would try pessimism, but it probably wouldn’t work.

We’re watching the self-immolation of the leading world power on a level unprecedented in human history.

In my day, never was longer.

New McCarthy, same old McCarthyism.

When someone says they “love freedom”, rest assured they don’t mean yours.

How any woman could possibly vote for this smug smarmy piece of misogynistic crap is beyond understanding.

You are here: Home / Politics / Glibertarianism / I Never Knew Her

I Never Knew Her

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And the GOP great white hope for the future channels his inner Lance:

In 2005, Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI) heaped praise on Ayn Rand, a 20th-century libertarian novelist best known for her philosophy that centered on the idea that selfishness is “virtue”. The New Republic wrote:

    “The reason I got involved in public service, by and large, if I had to credit one thinker, one person, it would be Ayn Rand,” Ryan said at a D.C. gathering four years ago honoring the author of “Atlas Shrugged” and “The Fountainhead.”

Ryan also noted in a 2003 interview with the Weekly Standard, “I give out ‘Atlas Shrugged’ as Christmas presents, and I make all my interns read it. Well… I try to make my interns read it.”

But today, Ryan is singing a far different tune.

From an interview with National Review’s Bob Costa this week:

    “I reject her philosophy,” Ryan says firmly. “It’s an atheist philosophy. It reduces human interactions down to mere contracts and it is antithetical to my worldview. If somebody is going to try to paste a person’s view on epistemology to me, then give me Thomas Aquinas,” who believed that man needs divine help in the pursuit of knowledge. “Don’t give me Ayn Rand,” he says.

Ayn Rand? Never heard of her! Prank caller, prank caller!

Reader Interactions

249Comments

  2. 2.

    BGinCHI

    I had no idea Paul Ryan was also a drug dealer who wore a bathrobe all day, but it’s not surprising.

  3. 3.

    Villago Delenda Est

    Right. Next he’ll be telling us he rejects Catholicism because it’s got that social gospel stuff in it.

    What a vile lying sack of shit Ryan is. He is utter opportunistic scum.

    Paul Ryan is an integrity free zone.

  6. 6.

    Richard

    Yeah, you were denouncing her as you where giving her books out as Christmas gifts and forcing your staff to read them.

    Ryan is a craven, cowardly little piss-ant.

    Anyway you slice it, Catholic or “rational” objectivist, he fails on both counts.

  7. 7.

    fasteddie9318

    I guess somebody decided to shake his Etch-a-Sketch for some reason, and in this case I do not mean Little Paulie yanking and cranking it to the rape scene in The Fountainhead.

  8. 8.

    dan

    Ayn Rand said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
    …

  9. 9.

    AA+ Bonds

    The sequence was this:

    1) Catholics United put pressure on the bishops
    2) The bishops put pressure on Ryan
    3) Ryan gave the bare minimum

    That’s why he threw in the hilarious Thomas Aquinas bit out of nowhere

  10. 10.

    fasteddie9318

    @dan:

    Ayn Rand said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

    “…and it won’t even be your own cock, you moocher scum, will it? No, you’ll probably loot somebody else’s cock for the job, because you lack self-reliance!”

  11. 11.

    rlrr

    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
    — Kung Fu Monkey

  12. 12.

    Cato

    Breaking News!

    Romney now TIED with Obambi in the latest Fox News poll, and he’s up plus three in the Rasmussen tracking poll.

    Remember, folks, Rasmussen tracks “likely voters” and Fox News “registered voters”, so the Rasmussen poll is likely to be more accurate of who will actually show up in November (especially so thanks to the election integrity laws).

    Romney’s favorability ratings also continue to climb and climb, soon he’s going to be above water on that count, too, and then his polls will fucking SKYROCKET. This should be helped along by Karl Rove, no doubt.

    Come January, 2013, President Romney should send a big “Thank You” card to the Supreme Court…

    BTW, word is if that Obambi tries to play the Mormon card, Jeremiah Wright is fair game.

  13. 13.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    Yet, I bet he still pushes the same budget, it’s just now comes with a side of God.

  14. 14.

    AA+ Bonds

    Thomas Aquinas, btw, would just tell Paul Ryan that a popularly elected legislature does not follow the divine plan and he’d be happy to talk to America’s king when we get one

  16. 16.

    rlrr

    “I give out Atlas Shrugged as Christmas presents, and I make all my interns read it. Well… I try to make my interns read it.”

    Worst. Boss. Ever.

  18. 18.

    Martin

    Someone is auditioning for VP. Having two economic sociopaths on the same ticket is just unnecessary. Paul Ryan, Social Warrior™ it’s gonna be, then.

  20. 20.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    This is a tell that he’s being measured as a possible VP pick. Think of it as an Etch-A-Sketchy audition. Next up, we get to see how well he can execute an interpretive dance titled: Budget? What Budget? That was merely an exercise in exploring the implications of some other people’s ideas!.
    __
    But just you wait till the swimsuit competition. That’s when he’s really gonna knock ’em dead.

  21. 21.

    AA+ Bonds

    The best thing about your boss telling you to read Atlas Shrugged is that you can just look it up on the Internet and lie about having read it, because there is actually no one on Earth who didn’t skip dozens of pages of that book when they ‘read’ it

    Mein Kampf is less turgid and exactly as pleasant

  23. 23.

    BGinCHI

    Next Rand Paul will claim he’s named after the South African currency.

    Also, weird name confluence with Rand Paul/Paul Ryan.

  24. 24.

    flukebucket

    I saw this one earlier over at Tboggs place. I got a real kick out of the third comment from Hatmandu

    “His main man is Thomas Aquinas? Take it away, Tommy A!

    –Man should not consider his material possession his own, but as common to all, so as to share them without hesitation when others are in need.–

    Somehow I don’t think Summa Theologiae is going to outsell Atlas Shrugged at the Galt’s Gulch Barnes and Noble.”

    LOL!

  25. 25.

    Zifnab25

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    What a vile lying sack of shit Ryan is. He is utter opportunistic scum.

    Republicans were loudly masturbating to Ayn Rand just two years ago when they decided to march back into office waving the flag of Small Government and Free Enterprise.

    I know a number of conservative folks – coworkers and friends-of-friends – who picked up Rand for the first time in the run up to the ’10 election. If Ryan wants to give everyone whiplash by disavowing Rand, more power to him. If this drives a deeper wedge between the Libertarians and the Republican, double more power. I’m quite eager to see the Fundies and the Libertarians finally start stabbing at each other, as God-who-may-not-exist intended.

  29. 29.

    Dave

    You know what else reduces human interactions down to mere contracts? CAPITALISM.

    Also too, the rule of law.

  31. 31.

    Cato

    BTW, shouldn’t Obambi be reimbursing the taxpayer for all his campaign trips? I know taxpayers don’t make up Obambi’s base (most of them live either of the government dime or in their mom’s basements), but still, fair is fair.

  32. 32.

    Hill Dweller

    Ryan got smacked down by Obama last year, but the media help rehabilitate his image. The minute he popped up again, with another one of his fraudulent budgets, he again gets smacked down by the President. Sure, the media whined about tone for a few days, but I doubt he’ll be Romney’s VP pick now.

    Nevertheless, the Obama campaign is going to hang Ryan’s budget(s) around Romney’s neck.

  35. 35.

    Citizen_X

    “The Russian, she’s good, don’t get me wrong. But the Austrian is a monster.”

  36. 36.

    AA+ Bonds

    @Svensker:

    Question is, did he grow up? Or is he lying?

    You joking? His statement here is exactly tailored to respond to attacks on Rand (and on Paul) from folks within the Church

  38. 38.

    Cato

    BTW, shouldn’t Obambi be reimbursing the taxpayer for all his campaign trips? I know taxpayers don’t make up Obambi’s base (most of them live either of the government dime or in their mom’s basements), but still, fair is fair.

  40. 40.

    cathyx

    Ryan would make a great VP for Romney. They both think they can just erase anything in the past that they don’t want to be associated with.

  41. 41.

    TheYankeeApologist

    @ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
    I will never, ever forgive you for that mental picture. What has been seen can’t be unseen.

    Is it just me, or does the act of contemplating the depth of the Republican-Insanity bench just seem more exhausting by the day?

  45. 45.

    fasteddie9318

    Congressman Ryan’s complete statement:

    It is a complete slander and fabrication to suggest that I ever subscribed to what I now am told is the atheist philosophy of Ayn Rand. The liberal tactic of relying on statements I’ve made, sadistic hazing rituals that I’ve put my interns through, shitty gifts I’ve gotten for people, this Ayn Rand sex doll I’ve had since I was 15, the Ayn Rand mask I make my wife wear when we play “Galtian Man and Submissive Bitch,” and the various shrines I’ve erected to Ayn Rand around the country, in order to assign some sort of philosophical position to me is just another example of the depths of dishonesty they will go to in order to attack their opponents.
    __
    No, I, Paul Ryan, totally agree with, um, oh man, need a Catholic thinker, come on Paulie, think back to high school…oh yeah, with Thomas Aquinas, so suck on that liberal scum! Thomas Aquinas taught us all to, um, Jesus something something, and he also hated poor people and health care, I’m going to assume. I also am very fond of Jesus, too, because, um, he, uh, always warned people about raising taxes on job creators and wanted to privatize Medicare.

  46. 46.

    Cato

    @Gin & Tonic:

    We’re in an economic crisis now, G&T. How does it look to have the current resident of the White House going around living high off the taxpayer dime to benefit his reelection?

  47. 47.

    Tractarian

    OT, but you gotta love this.

    Romney’s foreign policy team sets up a conference call with journalists, intending to “pre-but” Biden’s speech painting Mitt as out-of-touch on foreign policy.

    They proceed to talk about Czechoslovakia and the Soviets.

  50. 50.

    amk

    @Zifnab25:

    I’m quite eager to see the Fundies and the Libertarians finally start stabbing at each other,

    Heck, I will supply boatloads of skinning knives for free.

  51. 51.

    Cato

    Basically, it’s probably all going to come down to the rustbelt and white working class voters especially Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania…

  52. 52.

    fasteddie9318

    @Cato:

    BTW, word is if that Obambi tries to play the Mormon card, Jeremiah Wright is fair game.

    Oh, God, and after they’d totally sat on that one for so long…

  56. 56.

    JPL

    @Gin & Tonic: hush..you know we are winning when they mention Rev. Wright. Of course they don’t mention Robertson. Change the subject cuz of course Ryan loves him some he men.
    Paul Ryan and his family fortunately had a safety net that he now wants to destroy.

  57. 57.

    fasteddie9318

    @Cato: Do you never wonder if, maybe, you really are as big a fucking idiot as the rest of us all know you are?

  58. 58.

    Quincy

    So it finally dawned on him that if he wants the Veep slot this time around or intends to run for the nomination in 2016, his creepy obsession with an outspoken atheist likely won’t play so well with a party at war with the vast secularist conspiracy. I’m actually surprised. I had him pegged as so drunk on the Rand kool-aid that he’d be willing to martyr himself for the cause. His plans for the country haven’t changed, but his willingness to lie about his objectives doesn’t strike me as Galtian heroism.

  59. 59.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    @TheYankeeApologist:

    I will never, ever forgive you for that mental picture.

    __
    Hey, it could have been worse. I could have suggested that you visual Ryan jumping out of a giant cake frosted with the slogan Unlimited Corporate Cash = VICTORY! wearing nothing but his boyish grin, a couple of pasties, and a…
    __
    Oh dear, did I just say that out loud?

  60. 60.

    rlrr

    @JPL:

    Robertson, Falwell, et al. said far worse things far more often then Rev. Wright. Yet, Republican Presidential candidates go out of their way to get those clowns’ support.

  62. 62.

    burnspbesq

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Nothing in any of Ryan’s policy positions suggests that he’s internalized any of Aquinas’ teachings. It’s just a convenient thing to say now that identification with Rand is becoming toxic.

  63. 63.

    Chyron HR

    @Cato:

    Pennsylvania! Pennsylvania!! VICTORY!! I mean, Pennsylvania!!

    Wow. McCain managed to hold out until October before he started deluding himself into thinking that Pennsylvania was a firewall state.

    But, as the 2008 GOP primaries amply demonstrated, Romney isn’t half the campaigner McCain was.

  64. 64.

    Cato

    BTW, in the downticket races, Croassroads GPS is already breaking out the big corporate bucks, with the first strike of the Spring Offensive coming in Virginia.

  67. 67.

    Marcellus Shale, Public Dick

    its funny how paul ryan’s denouncement of athiests, like they were anarchists, can actually make a person deepen their faith in faithlessness.

    save me jesus, don’t close the circle just yet.

  70. 70.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    So now I know what living in the Soviet Union was like. “Troskey? never knew that guy. I ALWAYS supported Stalin.”

  72. 72.

    Martin

    @Cato: Like how Fox had McCain beating Obama by 3 and Rasmussen had McCain beating Obama by 6 on this day in 2008? Nailed it!

  75. 75.

    Tractarian

    More good OT stuff.

    Apparently Karl Rove has squeezed out an electoral college projection.

    It looks uncannily similar to the one that Dick Morris foisted upon an unsuspecting public back in 2008. And it will probably be just as accurate.

  76. 76.

    Amir Khalid

    @BGinCHI:
    Per Wikipedia, his full name is Randal Howard Paul. Not sure if the shortening to Rand is a political act, or if that’s just what people have always called him; but if the former, then that’s rather pretentious of him.

  77. 77.

    Heliopause

    Catholicism has seamlessly integrated all sorts of heretical views into itself down the centuries, it ought to be a piece of cake to make Randianism consistent with church doctrine. Just say that it is and it is, that’s how religion works. Ryan isn’t trying hard enough.

  78. 78.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Tractarian:

    They proceed to talk about Czechoslovakia and the Soviets.

    You made this up. You had to. Not even Rmoney’s dumbass handlers are this fucking dumbass. It’s simply not possible.

    Then again, Gerry Ford once claimed that Poland was totally free of Soviet influence. This in 1976, mind you…

  81. 81.

    burnspbesq

    @gocart mozart:

    “If you leave out the fact that in the past eight years, they have been the least accurate”

    Nonono, you’ve completely lost the plot. Rasmussen is telling Idiot-Boy what he wants to hear. Therefore, by definition, it must be accurate.

  83. 83.

    Richard

    It’s been pretty sad that, up until now, the GOPers who use Rand’s work as jerking off material have always been to turn around and call themselves good Christians.

    I’m actually quite surprised that, finally, one of these “Virtue of Selfishness” assholes was called out on their hypocrisy. It has been a very long time coming.

  85. 85.

    gaz

    “The reason I got involved in public service, by and large, if I had to credit one thinker, one person, it would be Ayn Rand,”

    Am I the only one that finds that this statement glaringly contradicts itself?

  86. 86.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Cato:

    If total idiocy were a capital crime in this country, you’d be before a death panel faster than you can say Captain Jack Sparrow.

  87. 87.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    @Quincy:

    I had him pegged as so drunk on the Rand kool-aid that he’d be willing to martyr himself for the cause. His plans for the country haven’t changed, but his willingness to lie about his objectives doesn’t strike me as Galtian heroism.

    __
    So objectives (small-o) trump Objectivism (big-O)? There’s an object lesson in there folks.
    __
    [the scene, RNC headquarters, a few days ago]
    __
    Mitt: About this VP thing. We’ve got a small problem…
    Ryan: What?
    Mitt: This issue with the big-O. It could be a problem.
    Ryan: Huh?
    Mitt: You’re going to have to give it up.
    Ryan: That’s asking a lot from a ma…
    Mitt: Tell the folks that was never you. You’re a solid Christian, throw in one of those big names you Catholics like to…
    Boehner: Blah, blah, blah
    Ryan: Shut up you!
    Mitt: Don’t pay any attention to him, he’s just drunk again.
    Ryan: I guess that…
    Mitt: How much do you really want this?
    Ryan: OK, I’ll do it.
    Mitt: Good boy! Oh and by the way, I need you to come in to work this Sunday.

  89. 89.

    rikryah

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    not kidding you in the least.

    Czechoslovakia and the Soviets.

    Fighting the last war
    By Steve Benen – Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:37 PM EDT.

    It’s easy to forget, but four years ago, then-Republican presidential nominee John McCain had a foreign policy worldview stuck in the Cold War era. He said a conflict between Russia and Georgia was the first “serious crisis internationally since the end of the Cold War” — a label that probably should have been applied to any number of crises, including 9/11 — and spoke about “Czechoslovakia,” despite the fact that the country ceased to exist in 1993.

    That was 2008. In 2012, Mitt Romney’s campaign appears to be picking up where McCain left off.

    The Romney campaign has been accused of being stuck in the 1950s. But it also seems mired in the 1980s — it again invoked Cold War threats on Thursday, as it tried to attack the Obama administration on foreign policy.

    Romney and his surrogates have revealed an ongoing Cold War fixation. Former Reagan Defense Secretary John Lehman and former Bush administration Ambassador Pierre Prosper, on Thursday derailed Romney messaging in a conference call with reporters by raising the specter of the “Soviet Union” and slamming Obama for not protecting Czechoslovakia — a country that was peacefully dissolved in 1993 and now exists as the Czech Republic and Slovakia.

    maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/26/11414247-fighting-the-last-war?lite

  90. 90.

    japa21

    Okay, so Ryan has now thrown Ayn Rand, the bishops and the Jesuits under the bus. And soon it will be Aquinas. I thought only Dems did the throw under the bus routine.

  91. 91.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @gocart mozart:

    One fun way to amuse yourself is to post direct quotations from The Wealth of Nations on some looneytarian discussion site, and get the howls of “Marxist! Statist! Communist” going.

  92. 92.

    Ash Can

    As I said in the last thread when I saw this (h/t Thoughtcrime), I think this may signal a full-court press for Ryan for the VP slot — “Look, Mitt, I’m just like you! I’ll flipflop on anything!”

  93. 93.

    burnspbesq

    @Cato:

    “BTW, shouldn’t Obambi be reimbursing the taxpayer for all his campaign trips?”

    Show us the receipts for Bush and Reagan’s reimbursements, and we’ll talk.

  94. 94.

    TheYankeeApologist

    @Martin:
    Proof! Logic! He/she will just deny your reality and replace it with his/her own.

    Beating up on Cato is like fist fighting a three year old. Winning doesn’t prove anything.

  95. 95.

    Skerry

    “Whatever a man has in superabundance is owed, of natural right, to the poor for their sustenance. So Ambrosius says, and it is also to be found in the Decretum Gratiani: ‘The bread which you withhold belongs to the hungry: the clothing you shut away, to the naked: and the money you bury in the earth is the redemption and freedom of the penniless.’”
    — St Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologica, 1274 CE)

    Just like the Republican budget.

  96. 96.

    AA+ Bonds

    Luckily, Thomas Aquinas tells us that the fire of hell in which the damned burn will be corporeal

    That’s the applicable part of ST as I see it

  97. 97.

    eyelessgame

    @BGinCHI:

    Also, weird name confluence with Rand Paul/Paul Ryan.

    It is very wrong, but somehow not, that when I consider Ayn Rand Paul Ryan, I visualize the Human Centipede.

  99. 99.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @gaz: No, it is an 800 lb gorilla of a contradiction just sitting there glaring and daring someone to say something.

  100. 100.

    Tractarian

    @gaz:

    No, it’s perfectly consistent. You see, he read Atlas Shrugged and the Fountainhead as an impressionable youngster and was simply appalled by Rand’s Godless, compassionless worldview.

    So he decided to go into public service to make sure no one EVER lets such a twisted, misanthropic ethos influence America’s public policy.

    That’s also why he distributed the books at Christmas.

    Better know your enemy, after all.

  101. 101.

    Comrade Dread

    Well, we do know that the central message of Christianity is every man for himself, right?

    Blessed are the rich, for they shall inherit the kingdom of heaven.

    The poor you will always have with you, so screw them because they’re unproductive parasites unworthy to lick the sandals of the job creators.

    Don’t render unto Caesar a dime, because he’ll just spend in on welfare, food stamps and other programs for moochers.

    Also, we need some higher class trolls round here. The ones we got now aren’t even entertaining anymore.

  102. 102.

    Richard

    Next thing you know, Romney will be warning of the grave threat posed by Kaiser Wilhelm.

  103. 103.

    Skerry

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Romney foreign policy aid Pierre Prosper (can’t make that name up) said,

    PROSPER: The United States has become a spectator on issues of national security. We’ve also been embarrassed by North Korea where again it continues to be a conciliatory leaning forward approach and yet the North Koreans will launch a missile surprising the United States by violating their agreement.
    You know Russia is another example where we give and Russia gets and we get nothing in return. The United States abandoned its missile defense sites in Poland and Czechoslovakia, yet Russia does nothing but obstruct us, or efforts in Iran and Syria.

  105. 105.

    jake the snake

    Slighlty OT, but I have long claimed that the only thing that Ayn Rand and Karl Marx would agree on is religion.

  106. 106.

    Mino

    Breaking news. Bradley Manning eligible for the firing squad, I guess.

    Lucky the Abu Ghraib leaker preceded this new standard for treason.

  107. 107.

    JGabriel

    __
    __
    Chyron HR:

    Wow. McCain managed to hold out until October before he started deluding himself into thinking that Pennsylvania was a firewall state.

    HA! Romney is not going to win Pennsylvania. PA hasn’t voted for a Republican president since 1988, and they’re not gonna flip for Rmoney.

    If — IF — there are gettable “firewall” states for Romney, they’ll be Indiana, Ohio, Florida, North Carolina, Nevada, Iowa, New Hampshire, Virginia, and Nebraska’s second CD.

    Everyone of those states (and district) went for Obama in 2008.

    And, in order to win the election, Romney has to win ALL OF THEM just to get to 270 electoral votes.

    .

  108. 108.

    Svensker

    @Cato:

    We’re in an economic crisis now,

    This must be why Republican congresses all over the country are so busy doing the guns, vaginas and NO GAYS! dance.

  109. 109.

    Surreal American

    Well, we do know that the central message of Christianity is every man for himself, right?

    Wait, wasn’t that the central message of Buddhism?

  110. 110.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @rikryah:

    All three of you have to be conspiring to make this up. It’s too great a mistake for anyone with the slightest pretension of understanding the world beyond the borders of the United States to every make. I mean, it’s not even the level of difficulty of correctly prouncing the name of the current strong man of Pakistan would be, or naming the capital of Uzbekistan.

    I mean, it takes like oh, I don’t know, 10 seconds to look this shit up on Wikipedia?

    These guys demonstrate, before some media guys eaget to make them look like total idiots, what total idiots they are?

    If this is the best these sad excuses for foreign policy advisers can do, Obama needs to start planning on writing his memoirs in 2017, right now. Tell the publishers he’ll have four more years of content for them. Start preparing Michelle’s campaign for 2016.

  112. 112.

    replicnt6

    @Cato:

    They NAILED the final margins in 2000, 2004, and 2008.

    In April?

    Didn’t think so.

    ETA:
    See, partisan polling outfits start out with more bias and get less as they approach the election in the hope that they can a) sway people early on, and then b) not look like complete hacks at the end.

  113. 113.

    Scott S.

    Some smart reporter should be quizzing Ryan on his knowledge of Thomas Aquinas.

    Could someone find me a smart reporter, please?

  114. 114.

    gaz

    @gocart mozart: Now that the catholics are after him, he throws Rand under a bus and claims ideological kinship with Thomas Aquinas, of all people, because it’s convenient, and probably good for his career (until next Tuesday or so – maybe he’ll claim Caesar Chavez).

    In the end, I think Ayn Rand would be quite pleased with Ryan’s latest volley of self-serving bullshit.

  116. 116.

    Amir Khalid

    @Cato:
    You wouldn’t hear it from the others, so I know you won’t want to hear it from me either; but the Jeremiah Wright thing is old news. Rev. Wright retired as pastor of Trinity United Church of Christ even before the media made a fuss over his old sermons, and Obama left the church well before he was elected President. Can’t your party at least manufacture a recent scandal?

  118. 118.

    Steve in DC

    @Richard

    Christianity isn’t exactly monolithic. There are several protestant schools that hold various beliefs. Some examples: We are all damned or saved before we are born so what happens doesn’t really matter. The poor and needy are brought closer to god through their suffering so they are the ones that are truly blessed. God rewards the righteous and pious and punishes the wicked and the lazy so if you are rich it means you did something right and if you are poor you did something wrong thus punish the beggar. Or none of this shit matters at all since god is coming so get your ass praying and don’t worry about worldly matters. It’s really all over the fucking map.

    However the Catholic Church is largely on the side of helping the poor and promoting social welfare as Papal decree and religious duty. Eliminating poverty and hunger is one of the highest goals of the church. And among some sects, like the jesuits, it’s far more important that idiotic fights over contraception.

    The OLD Republican party was traditionally well educated, rich, socially progressive, protestants. And they certainly were fully of the “god rewards the righteous and punishes the wicked” brand of Christianity. And Catholics were certainly OLD Democrats of the socially conservative yet “god says help the poor and being rich is bad” mantra as well.

    The current Republican party still hawks around god rewarding the righteous when it comes to the morality of creating economic programs for the poor. Along with a side dose of truly believing that free market capitalism is the best way to lift people out of poverty, provided they aren’t lazy bums in which case oh well.

    Ryan, like most Republican Christians, is just picking and choosing which sect of Christianity’s mantras he wants to go off of based on who backs his economic arguments. He’s certainly inline with the Protestants.

  119. 119.

    danielx

    Pay no attention to that hypocritical woman behind the curtain over there! I am the great…the great…and powerful…Wizard of Zombie Eyed Granny Starving, Paul Ryan. And I am not a bad man, I’m just very bad at covering my tracks. (Goddamn the intertubes and those blogger swine anyway…)

  121. 121.

    Brachiator

    “I reject her philosophy,” Ryan says firmly.

    Mittens and Ryan need to take this “I Deny 2012” act on the road.

    @BGinCHI:

    Next Rand Paul will claim he’s named after the South African currency.

    Isn’t Rand Paul married to RuPaul, who is also the national currency of India?

  122. 122.

    rlrr

    Well, we do know that the central message of Christianity is every man for himself, right?

    No, that’s Buddhism. ;)

  123. 123.

    gene108

    @rlrr:

    Insulting the gays, the Negroes, the Hindus and other non-white Protestant groups doesn’t count as outlandish because no white Protestant feelings got hurt.

    P.S. Please note Pat Robertson’s said some nasty stuff about Catholics and one of the founding principles of the Massachusetts Bay colony was the Pope is the Anti-Christ.

    P.P.S. I hope the Catholic Bishops, who want to lie in bed with the Evangelical fundies realize the virulent anti-Catholic strain that runs through much of American history, especially with the most devout Protestants.

  124. 124.

    Sentient Puddle

    Man, you guys are letting yourselves get trolled by someone who trots out an “Obambi”? That’s seriously weak.

  126. 126.

    rlrr

    @amk:

    @Richard: mittbot is from vietnam era. He knows jacksqaut about kaiser.

    I can’t wait to hear all about Vietnam war supporter Mitt’s military service…

  127. 127.

    gaz

    @Steve in DC: As I recall, Paul Ryan self-identifies as Catholic. The Catholic Church * is * in fact a largely monolithic institution. Some might argue that’s their very raison d’être. Even some catholics might argue that. Particularly the bishops and the pope (though the nuns may disagree ;)

    )

    ALSO: nearly if not every version of Christianity states emphatically that you cannot serve two masters. Furthermore, Ayn Rand argued for sanctity-of-self over sanctity-of-others, argued against religion in general, and Christianity in particular, and was a committed atheist.

    Kind of hard to square all this ideologically, or spiritually, no matter how you slice it.

  128. 128.

    JGabriel

    __
    __
    Sentient Puddle:

    Man, you guys are letting yourselves get trolled by someone who trots out an “Obambi”?

    We gotta sharpen our claws somewhere. Once in a while, at least.

    .

  133. 133.

    Steve in DC

    @gaz

    He certainly is a Catholic, but Christianity is not monolithic. He’s certainly co-opted some Protestant views. Other Catholics have taken other ones, namely birth control is OK and gays are OK.

  134. 134.

    Tractarian

    Isn’t Rand Paul married to RuPaul, who is also the national currency of India?

    No, you’ve got it all mixed up. Rand Paul is a bachelor. Paul Ryan is married to India. RuPaul is currently the Wisconsin Secretary of Agriculture.

    At least that’s what Carter Eskew told me.

  135. 135.

    amk

    @rlrr: Hey, he was fighting the good war in Paris, ok ? Like his spawns sons were fighting the good old Iraq war right here in us of a by trying to get him elected as prezinent in 2008 ? You rubes…

  136. 136.

    eyelessgame

    @jake the snake:

    I have long claimed that the only thing that Ayn Rand and Karl Marx would agree on is religion.

    Oh, I don’t know. I think they’d find they agreed on a lot. They wrote the same novel, after all – just with opposite sides as protagonists/heroes.

  137. 137.

    Skerry

    @rlrr:

    Well, the French were involved in Vietnam. And Romney served his church in France. So, Romney must know something about service in Vietnam. Right?

  138. 138.

    rlrr

    @amk:

    What about Obama? He avoided military service in Vietnam by choosing to be born in 1961. Why isn’t the media investigating this?

  139. 139.

    TG Chicago

    @flukebucket: Perhaps even a slightly better Aquinas quote:

    “whatever we have in ‘superabundance’–that is, above and beyond what will reasonably satisfy our own needs and those of our family, for the present and foreseeable future–is owed, of natural right, to the poor for their sustenance”

    It’s just ridiculous for Ryan to pretend his governing philosophy is closer to Aquinas than Rand.

  141. 141.

    Martin

    @Villago Delenda Est: I have a new theory!

    What if the 27% isn’t insane, rather they just all started losing their memory during St Ronnie’s term and have no ability to store new memories from the last 30 years? To them, the top marginal rate is still 50%, unions are rampant, oil crises are still recurring issues, Iran is taking hostages, and the Soviets are still out to nuke us. And then they see this black guy on TV behind the Presidential seal and completely lose their shit – as if one of us turned on the news and saw Morbo sitting there.

    Maybe the GOP is just reinforcing the only reality their base can still remember?

  142. 142.

    gaz

    @eyelessgame: cosigned

    ETA: Adding, they were both pretty fucking wrong. Placing too much faith in Ideology tends to lead to that. Maybe a little spirituality would have been good for them.

  143. 143.

    JGabriel

    Paul Ryan:

    If somebody is going to try to paste a person’s view on epistemology to me, then give me Thomas Aquinas. Don’t give me Ayn Rand.

    Shorter (just barely) Ryan: If the fundies won’t go for the atheist, surely they’ll go for the papist. I know I can attract more flies with vinegar than with citronella oil!

    .

  144. 144.

    amk

    @rlrr: See he was a kenyan muslin mau mau fighter as a child. There is even a photographic evidence that he was a pirate. mittbot is gonna kick his ass. Victory!

  147. 147.

    Ash Can

    @Villago Delenda Est: I’ll be the first to admit that, being a child of the Cold War, I slip up myself, especially with “Czechoslovakia.” But I always catch myself right away and correct myself, and feel silly about it. And I’m not purporting to direct the foreign policy wing of the GOP campaign for POTUS. Cripes.

    Jeebus, what a boatload of fail this afternoon — Prosper with his Cold War leftovers, Boehner with his “blah blah,” Ryan with his Ayn-under-the-bus, Karl Rove with his “THE math” II Electric Boogaloo, and, even though I have him pied, Cato with his…Jeremiah Wright??? Seriously?!

    Is it late enough in the day to start drinking?

  148. 148.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @fasteddie9318:

    It is a complete slander and fabrication to suggest that I ever subscribed to what I now am told is the atheist philosophy of Ayn Rand.

    OK, I’m looking forward to 2012 Paul Ryan suing 2005 Paul Ryan for slander.

  149. 149.

    gaz

    @Martin:

    What if the 27% isn’t insane, rather they just all started losing their memory during St Ronnie’s term and have no ability to store new memories from the last 30 years?

    That might not be smearing yourself in feces insanity, but if it’s not a serious and debilitating mental condition that is just as tragic and unhinged, then I don’t know what is.

    A rose by any other name?
    ETA: Ever seen “Memento”?, heh.

  150. 150.

    Chris

    The reason I got involved in public service, by and large, if I had to credit one thinker, one person, it would be Ayn Rand

    A person who goes into public service because he’s read Ayn Rand has missed the entire point of her philosophy.

    On the other hand, if he’d said “Ayn Rand inspired me to reach for a job where I could gain as much money, power and attention as possible by completely abolishing any concept of ethics and living entirely at the expense and over the corpses of others,” I’d have believed him. Maybe that’s what the little fucker meant.

  151. 151.

    Forum Transmitted Disease

    Ayn said unto the blue-eyed GOP queer fantasy boy, Verily I say unto thee, That this campaign season, before the teatards shriek, thou shalt deny me thrice.

  153. 153.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Martin:

    Well, it’s an interesting theory, and there’s a great deal of anecdotal evidence that supports it.

    Also, it has the comforting reassurance that they simply are not that fucking stupid, to parade their idiocy in some showcase like they did today.

    Next you’ll be telling me that Paul Ryan is denouncing Ayn Rand. Look, I wasn’t found under a cabbage leaf yesterday…

  155. 155.

    gaz

    @Forum Transmitted Disease:

    Ayn said unto the blue-eyed GOP queer fantasy boy, Verily I say unto thee, That this campaign season, before the teatards shriek, thou shalt deny me thrice.

    F to the T to the motherfuckin’ W

  158. 158.

    Nutella

    Besides the VP race, Ryan may be smarting from the kick in the balls he got from the Jesuits. He has always claimed to be a good Catholic boy with a good Catholic budget plan and they pointed out, jesuitically, that he’s full of shit.

  159. 159.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @gene108:

    I hope the Catholic Bishops, who want to lie in bed with the Evangelical fundies realize the virulent anti-Catholic strain that runs through much of American history, especially with the most devout Protestants.

    Oh, I’m sure that’s in the back of their minds. But the current fight is against the sluts and their enablers, and thus these two groups of broomstick up the ass prudes have a common enemy.

    Once the foul sluts are finally vanquished, the old wounds will be reopened, and the fun will begin.

  160. 160.

    SatanicPanic

    Say what you like about McCain/Palin, but they were interesting. They had human personalities (disagreeable ones but still). But Ryan + Romney would be about as exciting as mayonnaise on white bread.

  162. 162.

    Tonal Crow

    Another day, another example of Republicans saying whatever it takes, whether it’s true, false, any mixture of the two, unknown, or unknowable.

    Republican postmodernism: It’s what’s for news.

  164. 164.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    @Martin:

    And then they see this black guy on TV behind the Presidential seal and completely lose their shit – as if one of us turned on the news and saw Morbo sitting there.

    __
    Choking down the laughter here.
    It’s so funny because it’s true.

  165. 165.

    Brachiator

    @Cato:

    Did they ever shout “GODDAMN AMERICA!” or blame white people for all the worlds problems?

    Rev Wright never did any of this either. So, what’s your point?

    On the other hand, Ayn Rand did say this:

    “I am against God for the reason that I don’t want to destroy reason.”
    __
    “My morality is based on man’s life as the standard of value…that his highest moral purpose is the achievement of his own habits…that each man must live as an end in himself.”

    Let’s see, godless, self-centered. Why does the GOP run away from their atheist hero?

    Why is Paul Ryan such a coward?

  166. 166.

    japa21

    Rereading the quiote from Ryan, two things jump out. First is that he apparently just found out now that Rand was an aetheist. She wasn’t exactly subtle in expressing her aetheism. Secondly, I now see that he is only throwing her aetheistic philosophy under the bus, not her economic philosophy. Of course, he doesn’t make that very clear.

  168. 168.

    gaz

    @SatanicPanic:

    Ryan + Romney would be about as exciting as mayonnaise

    Personally I find them fascinating, but I like to read about sociopaths and their behavior patterns. This to me is like watching them act, in their natural habit. Something you often don’t see, because by and large the ones you read about are all about killing people (and so they generally prefer their privacy while acting out the worst of it) instead of just catapulting self-serving babble at the cameras.

  169. 169.

    trollhattan

    @Cato:

    We waz in ekkonumic krises in 2008, monkeyboy. Where you been, dood? Why you no verytush no more? Banhammered?

  170. 170.

    Chris

    @Cato:

    Did they ever shout “GODDAMN AMERICA!” or blame white people for all the worlds problems?

    No, they simply supported segregation (“Integration will destroy our race,” Jerry Falwell) and apartheid (“I think just ‘one man one vote,’ unrestricted democracy, would not be wise,” Pat Robertson). And of course Robertson kept up healthy economic ties with Charles Taylor and Mobutu Sese Seko.

    Ah, but Jeremiah Wright said “God damn America” (full quote: “God damn America as long as she tries to act like God,” which is actually perfectly sound theology) so both sides do it.

  172. 172.

    jl

    If Ryan was correct four years ago, that he got into public service because of Ayn Rand’s philosophy, then he got into public service either to 1) destroy it, or 2) get himself a lot of money and other goodies, or both.

    So, maybe that plan did not work out?

    Or his new line is the next stage in the plan? I don’t think being totally honest and charitable towards the rubes who work for the great eminences of the world is a big point in the Randian philosophy.

    So, Ryan needs to do more explaining of his conversion.

  173. 173.

    Mouse Tolliver

    That reminds me… The Passion of Ayn Rand, starring Eric Stoltz and Helen Mirren as Rand, is on demand this month. I’ve been meaning to watch it. I skipped it when it first came out because I saw so many articles denouncing it. Didn’t realize at the time that so many Randroid cultists would have an ax to grind since it portrays their goddess in a less than flattering light.

  174. 174.

    trollhattan

    Also, too, did somenozzle cite Rasmussen? A putz says, “what?”

    Take it away, Mr. Silver:

    Rasmussen Polls Were Biased and Inaccurate; Quinnipiac, SurveyUSA Performed Strongly
    __
    On Tuesday, polls conducted by the firm Rasmussen Reports — which released more than 100 surveys in the final three weeks of the campaign, including some commissioned under a subsidiary on behalf of Fox News — badly missed the margin in many states, and also exhibited a considerable bias toward Republican candidates.

    fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/04/rasmussen-polls-were-biased-and-inaccurate-quinnipiac-s…

  176. 176.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    @jl:

    So, Ryan needs to do more explaining of his conversion.

    __
    Strange things happen on The Road to Da Tampa.

  177. 177.

    Skerry

    Chris Matthews just asked why Bishops tend to be Republicans and nuns tend to be Democrats.

  179. 179.

    Brachiator

    @Skerry:

    Chris Matthews just asked why Bishops tend to be Republicans and nuns tend to be Democrats.

    Because Bishops are pricks?

  180. 180.

    Martin

    @gaz: Yeah, Memento is what I had in mind – but afflicting about 40 million people. Maybe the sight of middle-class black people on The Cosby Show caused most middle-aged white people to get spontaneous dementia?

  182. 182.

    RalfW

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

    My thought, too. It’s remarkably Stalinist/Soviet-like to utterly deny the thing you praised the day before yesterday.

    But it worked there because the people deciding the official line also ran the army and the NKVD so they could intimidate, terrorize and arrest as needed.

  183. 183.

    danimal

    Hey, I made a comment on a previous thread about Republicans and their confidence games; I used a comparison (think Verita$ x 1000). It never posted. Now I look at this thread and there is a total idiot named Cato who makes comments that look suspiciously like Verita$. Was our little troll given new life as Cato after being ban-hammered? And could my comment have been thrown into moderation hell for mentioning He Who Shall Not Be Named? Just curious.

  185. 185.

    gaz

    @danimal: yes.

    “Satire V” was a pretty common term for his old nom du jour, and isn’t banned.

    “Taco” is what I and a few others call him now. When he’s inevitably banned and Cato becomes “he who shall not be named” once again, that’s what I’ll be calling him, on his next incarnation.

    I figure for this fucknozzle, you really have to plan ahead.

  188. 188.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    @gaz:

    I’m sure the answer has something to do with Chris Matthews being a moron.

    —
    Chris Matthews playing Clue:
    ..and all the evidence points to the crime being committed by Bishop Danglybits, with the silver crucifix, in the, ..in the, in.. Oh dear, somehow that just doesn’t sound right! Sometimes this game is just too hard for me to follow what is going on.

  190. 190.

    Barry

    @gaz: Paul Ryan: “The reason I got involved in public service, by and large, if I had to credit one thinker, one person, it would be Ayn Rand,”

    gaz: “Am I the only one that finds that this statement glaringly contradicts itself?”

    Not if ‘public service’ means ‘looting’.

  191. 191.

    Liberty60

    @fasteddie9318:

    One Swedish made p3nis enlarger.”

    “Thats not mine”!

    “One credit card receipt for Swedish made p3nis enlarger, signed by Austin Powers.”

    “I’m telling you baby, that’s not mine!”

    “One warranty card for Swedish p3nis enlarger, filled out by one Austin Powers.”

    “I don’t even know what this is, this isn’t my sort of bag, baby.”

    “One book “Swedish Made P3nis Enlarger Pump and Me (This Sort Of Thing Is My Bag, Baby)’, by Austin Powers.”

  193. 193.

    danimal

    @gaz: Agreed.

    BTW, this thread is a perfect example of Republican confidence games. Taco just throws his poo around and everyone responds as if (s)/he is trying to legitimately contribute to the discussion. (S)/He is here to discourage, frustrate and distract you.

    Not all trolls need to be ignored, but Taco is utterly useless.

  194. 194.

    jl

    @trollhattan: thanks for the heads up, I will use that 538 post to filter the poll results.

    If you take out Rasmussen, then the average poll results say Obama has had a widening lead over Romney among likely voters and among all adults over last six months.

    for registered voters, Obama has lead in average poll results, except for a week or two in the last half of January.

  195. 195.

    Brachiator

    @BGinCHI:

    Some flagellate others and some flagellate themselves.

    Makes me nostalgic for the Ken Russell film, The Devils. So outrageous, it was banned for a while, and has never been seen uncut.

    The Devils is a 1971 British historical drama and horror film directed by Ken Russell and starring Oliver Reed and Vanessa Redgrave. It is based partially on the 1952 book The Devils of Loudun by Aldous Huxley, and partially on the 1960 play The Devils by John Whiting, also based on Huxley’s book. The film is a dramatised historical account of the rise and fall of Urbain Grandier, a 17th-century Roman Catholic priest executed for witchcraft following the supposed possessions in Loudun, France. Reed plays Grandier in the film and Vanessa Redgrave plays a sexually-repressed nun who finds herself inadvertently responsible for the accusations.
    __
    The film faced harsh reaction from national film rating systems due to its disturbingly violent, sexual, and religious content, and originally received an X rating in both Britain and the United States. It was banned in several countries, and eventually heavily edited for release in others. The film has never received a release in its original, uncut form in various countries, and is largely unavailable in the home video market.

  196. 196.

    Liberty60

    @fasteddie9318:

    One Swedish made p3nis enlarger.”

    “Thats not mine”!

    “One credit card receipt for Swedish made p3nis enlarger, signed by Austin Powers.”

    “I’m telling you baby, that’s not mine!”

    “One warranty card for Swedish p3nis enlarger, filled out by one Austin Powers.”

    “I don’t even know what this is, this isn’t my sort of bag, baby.”

    “One book “Swedish Made P3nis Enlarger Pump and Me (This Sort Of Thing Is My Bag, Baby)’, by Austin Powers.”

  197. 197.

    Mnemosyne

    @Cato:

    Did they ever shout “GODDAMN AMERICA!” or blame white people for all the worlds problems?

    They sure did:

    “And, I know that I’ll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way — all of them who have tried to secularize America — I point the finger in their face and say “you helped this happen.”
    Remarks to Pat Robertson after the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on The 700 Club (13 September 2001)

    Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson blamed America first after 9/11. They’ve been blaming America for pretty much everything for 40 years now — read a few more of the quotes on that page.

    Why did your hero Jerry Falwell hate America, Cato?

    Though I have to admit, I’m really looking forward to hearing the grandson of a guy who actually fled the United States to live in Mexico accuse Barack Obama of hating America. That will be Teh Awesome.

  198. 198.

    Mickey

    GOPers are just so full of shit these days. From their politicians right down to the knuckle dragging neanderthals that vote for them! They don’t care about facts. They just make them up as they go along. When that isn’t enough they make up their own reality to suit the facts. When that isn’t enough they just manufacture some controversy.

    Just nothing but a huge ocean of bullshit as far as the eye can see.

  199. 199.

    Jamey

    @Cato: Team McPalin didn’t run an ad about Wright? Tells you how far the GOP money-men thought that ploy would go, Cates.

  200. 200.

    Patricia Kayden

    Boy, I would give my left arm for RomneyBot to choose Ryan-the-Heartless as his running mate. Ryan is soulless. He would just highlight how coldblooded the Bot is. I cannot see them being able to compete with President Obama’s charm and wit.

  201. 201.

    Patricia Kayden

    I forgot to ask, how long as Rand been dead? Why didn’t Ryan know that she was an atheist at the time he forced his interns to read her novels?

  202. 202.

    Mnemosyne

    @Brachiator:

    Even in the “cut” version, it’s pretty rough to watch. They used to show it at the various repertory houses while I was in college, so I liked to take friends to see it and watch them walk out looking like they’d taken a 2×4 to the head.

    What, like you guys didn’t already know I was an asshole?

  203. 203.

    22over7

    Damn, this thread is hilarious, but I have to give it up to Nutella. Nouns are verbed-up all the time (see, e.g., sportscasters), but s/he sucessfully adverbed a noun.

    Jesuitically, for the win.

  204. 204.

    Jamey

    @Mnemosyne: That’s an unfair characterization, and you know it. Romney’s granddad’s family didn’t flee to Mexico because they hated America; they did so so they could rape underaged girls.

  206. 206.

    WereBear

    @Mnemosyne: Yeesh. And I was warned away from Caligula by friends; and have not regretted it.

    Then again, I recced Eraserhead to a fellow who got so freaked out he never forgave me for it.

  207. 207.

    Brachiator

    @Mnemosyne:

    Even in the “cut” version, it’s pretty rough to watch. They used to show it at the various repertory houses while I was in college, so I liked to take friends to see it and watch them walk out looking like they’d taken a 2×4 to the head.

    Saw it at a college film school showing. My favorite scene involved interesting uses for crucifixes. And the scene of Oliver Reed being burnt at the stake was an amazing visual.

    My favorite “watch them walk out” film was Pasolini’s Salò, or the 120 Days of Sodom.

    Both these films really deserve to be screened at the GOP convention. They would really “energize” the base. And would be a lot less hypocritical than the chum the Republican leaders are tossing to the faithful.

  208. 208.

    gaz

    @danimal: While I agree, there’s a very compellingly pragmatic part of me that accepts the fact that trolls gotta troll, and responders gotta respond.

    I’ll usually stop if I notice the thread is getting completely derailed and I’m more careful the fresher the thread (sometimes but not always).

    I don’t mind Taco crapping all over the thread, or the responses, I can choose to scroll past them or not.

    The other thing I firmly believe, is that a conversation can’t really be considered “derailed” if non-trolly parties are actively engaging in something interesting, even if the topic is shifted from the initial post. This is truer, the older the thread gets.

    Hell, I don’t mind meandering threads. And I’ve had some wicked good threads that veered into interesting territory nearly as often as being utterly destroyed by trolling.

    In the end, if enough people are interested in the topic, it can survive the most useless troll. If not, well, I like a little topic darwinism with my threads =)

    besides, haven’t we all engaged in a little self-indulgent troll bashing at one point or another? it’s fun. =)

    ETA: The troll only wins when you let them get to you. =)

    /devil’s advocate

  210. 210.

    Tonal Crow

    @Svensker:

    Svensker Says:
    And the cock crowed 3 times.
    __
    Question is, did he grow up? Or is he lying?

    This is snark, right?

  212. 212.

    Bruce S

    “If somebody is going to try to paste a person’s view on epistemology to me, then give me Thomas Aquinas,” who believed that man needs divine help in the pursuit of knowledge. “Don’t give me Ayn Rand,” he says.

    So now he’s blaming his penchant for reactionary libertarian bullshit on God not intervening in his intellectual deliberations sufficiently to convince him he’s full of crap?

    What a useless little shit.

  213. 213.

    Mnemosyne

    @WereBear:

    Well, it’s not a Caligula kind of gross — The Devils does actually have artistic merit to it. But it is absolutely a horror film, and the horror is that there are no devils in it at all. All of the horrors are things that human beings to do each other in the name of religion (it takes place during the wars between the Catholic French government and the Protestant Huguenots).

    It’s a weirdly atheistic movie from a Catholic director (Ken Russell converted to Catholicism as an adult).

  214. 214.

    TenguPhule

    Both these films really deserve to be screened at the GOP convention. They would really “energize” the base.

    And a new front on the War on Kleenex is opened.

  215. 215.

    gaz

    @WereBear: I really don’t think Rush Limbaugh is actually “blaming Spanx for his troubles”.

    It’s pretty clearly an attempt at humor.

    Really misogynistic, awkward and unfunny humor, but in all honesty I don’t think he was trying to be serious.

    And I can’t stand the pig. Probably more than many here, considering I took the time to read one of his books. Time I’ll never get back, mind you. That’s how much I loathe the guy though. I went and waded through several hundred pages of poorly written sewage just to make sure he was every bit as much the scumbag I thought he was. And since I did, I can tell you, you’re not missing anything.

  217. 217.

    Svensker

    @danimal:

    Taco just throws his poo around and everyone responds as if (s)/he is trying to legitimately contribute to the discussion.

    Mark Sanchez comments at BJ? Crazy!

  219. 219.

    Bruce S

    Telling that he performed this public rejection in National Review, where Whittaker Chambers famously eviscerated Rand from a conservative perspective over 50 years ago, concluding that her Galtian elite “can only head into a dictatorship, however benign, living and acting beyond good and evil, a law unto itself.” Not sure the word “benign” works for me there, but that’s pretty strong stuff, coming from the Right.

    Ryan made his allegiance very, very clear when he felt free to speak his mind, such as it is. This is a totally transparent back-pedal, because…you know…being Mitt’s Vice President would be a Big Fucking Deal.

  222. 222.

    Martin

    @gaz: See, the thing that separates comedy from douchebaggery is that the audience knows which one you’re aiming for. When the audience knows your long, sordid history of douchebaggery and you suddenly aim for comedy, you can’t fault the audience for not being able to follow you around that bend.

    Probably why there are no conservative comedies – they have such a long history of attacking people and proposing insane ideas for political gain, that they can’t pull off doing it for laughs.

  223. 223.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @gaz:

    I took the time to read one of his books.

    Why would you do that to yourself? Self loathing? Are you also a cutter? In what city are you? We can find you some help.

  225. 225.

    Bruce S

    @jake the snake:

    Actually, it’s not really true that Rand and Marx share similiar views on religion, beyond superficial materialism. Their critiques of religion itself are almost diametrically opposite.

    Marx wrote: “Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people…The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.”

    The notions of communism derived from Marx were a totally secularized attempt to fully realize via political action the virtues celebrated in Christianity, such as selflessness, love of one’s neighbor, concern for the poor – this to be achieved in some relatively idyllic future that mirrors Christian “paradise” and “end times.” Marx’s world-view was shot through with beliefs that originate in Judeo-Christian thought and required, among other things, faith in some ordained outcome – i.e. the notion of, essentially, an “end of history” when communism might be achieved. There are useful interpretations of Marx and his critique of early capitalism was prescient in many ways, but some of his writing has the aura of prophecy and his heirs in the realm of post-Leninist Commmunism essentially formed neo-religious cults. They gave medieval Catholicism a run for it’s money as a tyrannical empire built on a carefully constructed, rigidly enforced credo, complete with persecuted heretics and committees “defending the faith.”

    As complicated as Marx’s relationship to religion is IMHO, Rand simply celebrated heartlessness. Ironically, in the name of extreme individualism she also oversaw a cult of personality and had all of the psychological traits of a tyrant.

  227. 227.

    gaz

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Why would you do that to yourself?

    I also took 5-MeO-DMT once because I wanted to experience something like the shock state you go through as your body shuts down prior to death. It’s safe to say I have a morbid sense of curiosity. I’m thinking part of it had to do with that.

    Self loathing?

    Maybe at the time. I was a teenager.

    Are you also a cutter?

    Shit. (well, not anymore ;) )

    In what city are you?

    While I’m not trying to hide, a make people work for that one.

    We can find you some help.

    I seriously doubt that.

    cheers

  228. 228.

    gaz

    @opie jeanne: That’s what I thought too. Totally Calvin, but I didn’t want to get into it. Also, I’m afraid my wife might chime in. She’s a missionary and majored in religious studies. I don’t want to get her going ;)

  230. 230.

    burnt

    Paul Ryan, Thomistic disciple?! Please. Were talking about Paul Ryan who voted to wage war on Iraq? The same war that violates all the just war principles put forth by his supposed mentor nearly eight centuries ago. I don’t think Ryan subscribes to the Dominican’s ethical or economic theory either.

    I think Ryan has read a bit of Aquinas and I think he is cynical enough and smart enough to know that people aren’t going to know/seek Aquinas’ positions on things and instead they will think to themselves, “hey, Aquinas is an important Catholic dude. Ryan influenced by Aquinas. Therefore Ryan good.”

  231. 231.

    Silver

    I’ve read the extra-thick roll of toilet paper that is Atlas Shrugged, and from what I recall the heroes of the story were quite dismissive of anyone in government service, because that’s where the mediocre looters like Paul Ryan ended up.

  232. 232.

    Silver

    I’ve read the extra-thick roll of toilet paper that is Atlas Shrugged, and from what I recall the heroes of the story were quite dismissive of anyone in government service, because that’s where the mediocre looters like Paul Ryan ended up.

  233. 233.

    The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge

    Wasn’t Aquinas a heretic from his death to…maybe the Council of Trent, if I ain’t mistook?

  234. 234.

    jon

    Compared to Ryan, Romney is merely an Etch-a-Sketch in Name Only. He can’t win with that label.

  235. 235.

    Bruce S

    “I also took 5-MeO-DMT once because I wanted to experience something like the shock state you go through as your body shuts down prior to death.”

    I took it just because a friend of mine offered me some. (That guy is no longer with us, for arguably related reasons.) Hey, it was the ’60s. Frankly, I think mine was the better rationale.

  237. 237.

    Bruce S

    “I’ve read the extra-thick roll of toilet paper that is Atlas Shrugged”

    Very bad toilet paper – hurts your ass almost as much as it hurts your head as “literature.” Sorry, but there’s nothing redeeming in that mess.

  238. 238.

    calliope jane

    @Scott S.: Please oh please oh please let his people be stupid enough to book him on Colbert.

    Just putting that out in the universe. :)

  240. 240.

    gaz

    @Bruce S: It’s marginally more entertaining than it’s sister text. The one by Anton LaVey =). That’s got to at least count for something?

  242. 242.

    gaz

    @Bruce S:

    Frankly, I think mine was the better rationale.

    I assure you that rationality had nothing to do with my decision at the time. =) I was in my very early twenties, FFS!

  243. 243.

    Brachiator

    @Silver:

    I’ve read the extra-thick roll of toilet paper that is Atlas Shrugged

    This is why I will just hang loose for the movie version.

    Oh, wait….

  244. 244.

    bcinaz

    Ha. Nobody can take that thing he calls a budget seriously when they know it was designed by a guy who believes selfishness is a virtue’ soooo…presto chango, don’t pin that label on him, he’s a serious, selfless Catholic, whose only concern is the comfort and well being of those less fortunate than his very fortunate self.

    Paul Ryan and Scott Walker were separated at birth

  246. 246.

    Greyjoy

    I actually read “Atlas Shrugged” a couple months ago because I wanted to see what all the hype was about. I consider myself a flaming liberal, and everything I read about it seemed to laud or condemn it as the bible of self-interest, but to my utter surprise I actually a) really liked the book and b) found myself agreeing with most of it.

    (I did skip the last 200 pages of the John Galt speech at the end. The first 100 were boring enough and that’s where Rand really went off the rails with her moocher/looter theme.)

    The thing I found most surprising was that Rand draws a clear distinction between people who produce and people who enrich themselves off that production. It’s not a “business = good, government = bad” or a “rich = good, poor = bad” division. In fact, some of the most contemptuous characters in the book ARE the rich people (Hank Rearden’s family, James Taggart) and some of the most admirable characters ARE the poor people (the people who actually perform the vital tasks that keep the railroads and mills running). Even John Galt’s day job is as a railroad maintenance worker.

    Rand’s biggest contempt is reserved for the people who siphon off other people’s hard work and then use government as a hammer to prevent those hard workers from advancing or profiting off their own labor. Well, who the hell does that sound like? Sounds like Wall Street to me, sounds like the banking industry, sounds like Wal-mart. Sounds like every Republican out there who wants tax cuts for the rich while cutting education, health care access and other social programs for everyone else. Sounds like every idiot out there who thinks that a CEO making $4M a year is ‘fair’ but that a union worker with a pension is ripping off society.

    But if there could be an absolutely perfect Randian scenario, it would be the bailout of the investment banks—they profited hugely from scams that were deliberately meant to force people into foreclosure, they destroyed our economy as a result, and then they demanded more of our country’s wealth because otherwise they wouldn’t survive and that somehow “wasn’t fair”. Call me crazy but I see that as practically being lifted straight out of the pages of “Atlas Shrugged” as though the banks used the book as an instruction manual.

    So, maybe I’m not as good of a liberal as I thought I was, but I think Rand has quite a point, actually, but I also think that the “bad guys” Rand was writing about are not the ones conservatives like to think. I see a LOT of that very principle of economic destruction at the heart of our current corporatist system, and it sure as hell is NOT driven by the lazy poor. It’s driven by the same people who drove it in Atlas Shrugged: the people who think they deserve to get the most out of their least effort, and who consider it vital economic policy to crush anyone else’s success, even when one can demonstrate clear evidence that doing so is harmful. The people who want 15% capital gains taxes but don’t want to raise the minimum wage, even knowing that the tax cuts will cost trillions that won’t be made up in additional revenue. The ones who cut hundreds or thousands out of their workforce, offshore those jobs to China and then are stunned when fewer people buy stuff. How about the morons who made it illegal to discharge student debt via bankruptcy while tripling the cost of college tuition, and then are faced with an entire generation of college graduates who can’t pay back the loans? And what do they do? They turn to government. They spend billions of dollars on lobbies to cut MORE jobs, loosen regulations even more, drive worker protections even farther down, cut the social safety net to the bone. They use SuperPACs to fill government positions with their own politicians. Hell, they even take over the Supreme Court! Now corporations are people and can vote, but people can’t sue corporations anymore. And yet somehow, despite all the tax cuts and all the wage suppression and all the off-shoring and all the deregulation, the people just aren’t producing enough to make them rich and they just can’t fucking figure out why.

    If that isn’t Ayn Rand to the fucking letter, I don’t know what is. Like I said…she had a point.

  247. 247.

    Rob in CT

    Yes, there is a point to be made about rent seeking. But since the Randoids just about never make that point in real life, meh. There are a few thoughtful libertarians out there who do make that argument, and while I’m not one of ’em I’m glad they’re out there. But there are like 10 of them. Liberals can also make the critique, without the dubious benifits of the rest of Rand’s ideology of ME! ME! Memememememe!

    I liked that book too when I was 16. But it’s really, really simplistic. I’m an atheist, so it pushed that button for me. But as I grew up, I realized how ridiculously flawed the ideology was.

    Shorter me: broken clock is right twice a day.

  248. 248.

    compajuan049

    Ugh! Another back tracker! Lost me at “I reject her atheist philosophy” STFW?? She exemplifies the very Americana style individualism, here in Alaska strong rugged individualism at that, Sarah Palin “God Drop” game and playing to the lower 48er sheople like she was in the deep South really threw a lot of us off, this furor caused her to quit, then we went for Lisa Murkowski instead and booted her pet Joe Miller ( in Alaska a state that requires mountaineering skills to even make it to the nearest bus stop in winter! Ain’t no time for prayin’!)

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