If you have not been watching this fucking fiasco, you will surely hear about it tomorrow.
Roger Goodell must immediately be fired, the real refs must be brought back, and this national disgrace must end.
Right wing union busting is having the same impact on America’s game as it has had on America. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise.
The Jerry Jones wing of the NFL owners and Roger Goodell need to be fired. Period.
encephalopath
Clusters have been effed. The lockout must certainly be over.
Slamhole
Can’t even turn to hockey. At least it’s still baseball season
Will
I’m obviously self-interested as a Hawks fan, but you have to admit this is the stupid terrible clusterfuck the League needed to force the issue. I do feel bad for the Packers, who should have had it on principle after Wilson did diddly for the second half.
Violet
Who is Goodell’s boss. Who could fire him?
Hill Dweller
More incompetent: the refs in this game or Romney’s high level campaign staff?
The Dangerman
I confirmed it; Green Bay was -3 to -3.5, depending upon the book. Vegas is going fucking nuts right now. Some books might pay both ways and take the bath.
I agree, Goodell should be fired, perhaps before Green Bay takes off from Sea-Tac.
A sick joke; this is almost roller derby now.
Spike
But…but…defined benefit pensions!
jharp
Quite ironic it was the Packers that took it on the chin.
Maybe there is a God.
Bobby D
Haven’t watched an NFL game in about 6 years. Don’t miss it either. I do love me some college ball though.
encephalopath
Maybe the scabs were tired and decided that it was time to go back to their regular jobs.
Spaghetti Lee
@The Dangerman:
I lead a sheltered life. What does ‘-3.5’ mean and why is it bad for Vegas?
Punchy
Im just fucking stunned. Phantom fouls followed by just insane call at end. WOW.
Danoman
Wow. Packers got jobbed. They shouldn’t have come back out for the extra point. I would be shocked if this thing isn’t settled with the officials tomorrow morning. Vegas must be going nuts!
Bobby D
Unions are people, my friends.
Maybe they can roll down the windows on the Gulfstream IV and toss Raj Goodell out?
Spaghetti Lee
I wasn’t watching (work to do). So the Packers got screwed? Well, I’m rooting for the real refs to come back, but having to feel sorry for the Packers? Sorry, can’t. I’m glad the scabs hung around long enough to kick them in the nuts.
M. Bouffant
Ho. Lee. Crap.
What going to happen when a home team is screwed like this? Chants of “Bullshit!” audible on tee vee will be the least of it.
Spaghetti Lee
@Will:
If we’re going to do the whole ‘who should have won’ thing, I’d say the team that allowed 8 SACKS in the FIRST HALF may have deserved to not exactly win the game, scabby refs nonwithstanding.
encephalopath
@Spaghetti Lee: Money money money money…. MONEY
peggy
As a non-fan (we don’t even have a working TV), I’m amused by how upset you guys are by a labor action.
Keep this episode in mind the next time school teachers or garbage collectors go on strike. It might help you understand why the left is often reviled.
WhyKnot241
Mug a DB get a pass interference call. That, unlike the TD, cannot be disputed.
Maybe the owners are going for a RollerBall business model where people tune in with some sort of sick fascination for what can go horribly wrong next.
I think it might take the players refusing to play to change the dynamic.
UofAZGrad
John,
Don’t be so shortsighted, the occasional wrong result and corresponding lost playoff birth combined with a few season/career ending injuries is a small price to pay to send a message to the zebra moochers. Oh wait, I did some research and it appears actually 2 million out of 9 billion is a small price to pay.
zzyzx
About time a Seattle team benefits from something like this.
Yeah the Packers were robbed but at the same time, it’s not like it was 20-0 and the refs gave us 21 points or something. We played them tight, had horrible luck with a fumble then got a ridiculous call in our favor.
The Dangerman
@Spaghetti Lee:
Well, the short version is, if the final score is 12-7 (as it should have been), you take away 3.5 points from Green Bay…
…and those that bet Green Bay get paid.
As for bad for Vegas, the NFL action at the sportsbooks is massive. Those that should have been paid (Green Bay betters) are NOT happy. Those that bet Seattle are racing to the windows to collect, just in case the NFL steps in and corrects this travesty.
That’s why I said Vegas might pay both ways (or call it a voided game; I’ve heard of paying both ways previously, maybe not with the NFL, but it’s happened).
ETA: There will be real refs by the next game. Bet on it. ;-)
Anonymous
Didn’t watch the game, but seriously, fuck Goddell.
billgerat
Even I, a rabid Seahawks fan, think that GB got jacked. However, the NFL screwed the pooch by locking out the refs, and thus deserve the ending that they got. It may have been a bad ending, but it was bad officiating that made it possible.
Still, I’ll take the win.
Spaghetti Lee
@encephalopath:
Well, yes, but more specific.
Foxhunter
I don’t think I’m reading the same blog as Peggy.
WTF?
Upset by a labor action? No, upset by a labor-busting action is more like it. And the undesirable consequences.
Mr Stagger Lee
The only reason they did not reverse the call, there would have been a riot at the CLink! I bet there are fights around the stadium right now.(yes it was an interception, for the record.)
Mark S.
If I were to pick the worst game I’ve ever played on the Xbox, it would probably be Borderlands. Loud and obnoxious doesn’t even begin to describe it, with the worst graphics of anything made in the last decade. It seriously looked like you were on a planet made of shit.
But look, the critics are creaming their pants about Borderlands 2. Could it be . . . oh wait, these are game critics, who are whores who will praise any piece of shit as long as it’s released by a big studio.
IrishCC
But who would fire them? Fans need to collectively hire a good anti-trust lawyer to make a bold claim: Because the market is “inelastic”, as they say, the owners have no traditional market incentive not to abuse their consumer base. Thus, this travesty. It’s our only hope.
Dork
If this game doesnt settle the lockout, nothing will. You wont see a more screwed up game all year. Aside from the last call, theres the phony roughing the passer call, followed by the non- call for DPI on woodson on that last drive. And the fact that nearly 30 flags thrown.
Unspeakable. Looked riggged, actually. I agree that Vegas sportsbooks must have exploded in anger
Bob In Portland
@peggy: peggy, it’s not a strike. It’s a lockout. This might help you understand why anti-worker shits are often reviled.
Foxhunter
@The Dangerman: Most books, even before this disaster, were adding .5 to 1 point for the home team to offset any sub ref homer-ism.
red dog
Since Green Bay is a public Co the owners can refuse to field a team for safety reasons. There is already talk of refusing to play the next game…stand up guys and make them field scab players too. There’s gotta be a way.
MattR
So this is why I am talking to myself in the MNF Open Thread? As I just said down there:
Commenters at ProFootballTalk have generally been very pro-owner but the comments on the hail mary post are just destroying Goodell and demanding the real refs back.
@The Dangerman: Thank god GB came back on the field so Seattle didn’t get the gift 2 pt conversion to ruin my GB +3 tease. That is my consolation prize for losing the -3.5 bet.
@IrishCC: Fans need a union
smith
@MattR:
If you’ve lost ProFootballTalk….arguably the most brain-dead NFL posters on the web (right after Yahoo!Sports posters), that’s the equivalent of Rush Limbaugh saying he’s an Obama supporter.
Gwangung
That wold have been normal if most of them were on the Seahawks.
The Dangerman
@Foxhunter:
Can you imagine if it was, say, the Cowboys that got boned? Jerry Jones would be tossing shit out of his box.
I wouldn’t be shocked if the NFL reverses the call tomorrow and Green Bay is called the winner. Causing more grief for the books.
jharp
@The Dangerman:
I can’t see anyone who bet Green Bay getting paid. Period. Green Bay lost.
Argive
@peggy:
I don’t revile labor actions. I revile union-busting actions. The refs aren’t striking, they got LOCKED OUT.
Batocchio
There were some bad calls throughout the night that favored each team, but a few of them, especially that last one, decided the game (that pass interference one was also awful). I root for my team, but when a penalty is called, and the replay shows they deserved it, I say good call. I think that’s the worst fucking call I’ve ever seen in my life.
MattR
@The Dangerman: There is zero chance Goodell will eat that much crow.
Roy G.
Geez, Wisconsin, sorry ’bout that. Whoda thunk that union busting might not be all free market unicorns and rainbows? Lesson learned, lol. Maybe Paul Ryan can raise the issue when he’s drinking that $350 Pinot Noir with Rog and the boys in NYC.
Heh, the fans got a good Rogering tonight, eh?
spudvol
Replacement refs summed up in one pic-
https://twitter.com/Rachel__Nichols/status/250446414621052928/photo/1
Or something like that.Suffern Ace
@Spaghetti Lee: Or perhaps the team that only gave up 7 points deserves some consideration.
The Dangerman
@jharp:
Perhaps, but this is BAD for the books; for them to make money, they have to book a “fair” game (or, more correctly, the NFL has to deliver a “fair” game). If people feel jobbed, people don’t bet.
Rainey Day
GOP solution: Play the games without any refs whatsoever!
Mr Stagger Lee
@The Dangerman: How about if it was the Jets or the Giants. Hell had this happened to the Eagles, I would be staying up all night just listen to their sports radio for entertainment.
Rainey Day
GOP solution: Play the games without any refs whatsoever!
dedc79
Even without that final call, the game was a disaster. The pass interference call with 4 or 5 minutes left was one of the worst calls I’ve ever seen in the NFL.
Death Panel Truck
@Spaghetti Lee: I’d say the team that scored 12 points in the second half (to Seattle’s 0) deserves to win the ballgame.
That call was complete bullshit. Jennings intercepted the ball. End of game. Eight sacks in the first half don’t mean shit – Green Bay won that game.
Roger Moore
@Dork:
That’s a bold declaration, unless you’re sure that the lockout will be ended before the next game. I wouldn’t put any level of fail beyond the replacement refs.
sctrojan90
Only the owners can fire Goodell and they are the ones who are saying dont settle. Until one gets massively fucked, nothing will change. If this happened to the Cowboys,lockout over.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Argive: to give you a clue what peggy was really up to, notice the “we don’t even own a TV” comment. Think back to Cole’s “Attention all Idiots” thread from last night. I smell a troll.
Spaghetti Lee
@Death Panel Truck:
Yes, I know. And I know it makes me a bad person to troll Packers fans, but I can’t help it. It’s part of my DNA.
Eric U.
the guy that screwed the game at the end must have also been the one that called the pass interference wrong too. Wonder what Pop Warner league fired him so he was available for the NFL games
I wonder if they aren’t getting worse as the season goes on because now they are second guessing themselves even more. It must really be hard to go from whatever lower tier games these guys were working to the NFL without any experienced guys to settle them down.
Nathan
I think the NFL could fill the pension fund with the fines paid by coaches/players… at this rate we’ll reach $2M in time for the late games on Sunday.
MattR
Nice, and the refs fucked up the GB 2 point conversion and made them play with the slicker kicking ball.
smith
@Roger Moore:
Exactly. Remember last Monday when everyone was going ballistic over the Broncos-Falcons game and the horrid calls there? We thought that was the nadir, the goalposts keep getting moved.
Argive
@The prophet Nostradumbass:
Yeah, I shoulda known better than to feed the troll.
Dork
ESPN showing post game interviews and both players and reporters have no idea what to say or ask, respectively.
encephalopath
@peggy: Due to the binary results of the win/loss structure of sports, the impact is less like a standard labor negotiation than is it like taking the judges from your county court and replacing them with random people from your local grocery store.
Steeplejack
@Spaghetti Lee:
That’s the betting line. Packers -3.5 means the Packers were favored to win by that much. If you bet on the Packers and they won by 4, you would win your bet; if they won by only 3, you would lose your bet, because they didn’t “beat the spread.” On the other hand, if you had the Seahawks you would have won your bet even if they lost by 3, because they beat the spread, or “covered.”
All of that is moot because Seattle ended up winning the game anyway.
Also, I’m not so sure Vegas is going nuts. Most sports books establish and move their lines so that (ideally) they have equal amounts bet on both sides. They make their money on the “vigorish,” or vig–the fee paid by losing bettors.
Simplified example: You want to bet $100 on a game. You pay $110 for your ticket or whatever. Some other guy bets $100 the other way and also pays $110. If you win, you get your $110 back plus $100 in winnings. The other guy loses his whole $110. A hundred of that goes to pay you, and the house, or bookie, keeps the $10 vig. That’s how they make their money.
Finally, a lot of sports books set the line in half-point increments so that there is no possibiliity of a tie, or “push.” The Packers might win by 3 or win by 4, but they can’t win by exactly 3.5.
For books where they do integer spreads–Packers by 3, say–a game that ends with the Packers winning by exactly 3 is a “push”–that is, neither betting side wins and they get their money back, or they can “push” it to another bet.
ETA: Sorry if five other people have answered this better while I was laboriously composing this.
Danoman
Free markets, even sports books, rely on at least the perception of fairness and competency. Aaron Rodgers is bitter-for good reason!
YellowJournalism
Do the replacement refs have bodyguards? Gonna need it…
KDS
I hope the replacements refs fuck the Packers, and by extension the state of Wisconsin, for the rest of the season…
MattR
@Nathan: Bill Simmons mentioned on his podcast that Romney’s best chance to win the election is to offer to pay the extra money to get the real refs back. And that was before this game.
@The Dangerman: I am not sure what exactly they can do, but I think the sportsbooks are going to be the best chance to bring pressure onto the league to fix this.
@Steeplejack: The Packers are a public team so they generally get more money bet on them than on their opponent. This result is good for Vegas int he short term since they won all the GB money. But it could kill them in the long run if bettors reduce or stop wagering due to the uncertainty.
NotMax
Football is “America’s game?”
Must’ve missed the memo demoting baseball.
But then again, I never have had even passing interest in any sport whatsoever. ;)
Steeplejack
@Foxhunter:
The danger of scab refs is not homerism, it’s simple incompetence.
rb
@smith: the goalposts keep getting moved.
No, that’s next week.
Danoman
Really surprised by how critical against the league ESPN commentators have been on this whole fiasco. Kudos to Steve young and Trent Dilfer.
encephalopath
Shame and disrepute has fallen over the NFL, and it brought it on itself. It would be like tragedy if it weren’t so completely predictable and understandable for the onset.
MattR
@Steeplejack: Yeah, but they tend to get influenced by the home crowd meaning that their incompetence leans slightly in favor of the home team.
@NotMax: Football passed baseball in popularity more than 10 years ago, though apparently it gets lonely at the top and the NFL wants to send some of its fans to other sports
smith
@Danoman:
Steve Young has another epic rant going. Trent Dilfer isn’t bad either.
@rb:
All I keep from pro-Goodell/owner trolls on various message boards is how the replacement refs will “get better” each passing week. Obviously that is not the case – who knows the fuckery that will occur in Week 4?
The Dangerman
@MattR:
I wouldn’t be surprised to see some books take NFL games off the board. That would be a massive embarrassment for the NFL.
Death Panel Truck
@Spaghetti Lee: I’m not a Packers fan. I’m a Cardinals fan.
I’m not a Seahawks fan either, and I was born and raised in Washington. I’ve never liked the Seahawks, in fact.
jharp
@The Dangerman:
Agreed. And I used to do some handicapping myself and took one on the chin with the “Music City Miracle” or whatever they called that.
And ouch that stung when I didn’t need to be stung.
billgerat
@The Dangerman:
The NFL will not reverse the game tomorrow. If they did, it would be an admission that the scab refs they have been backing were a failure from the start and that the lockout was a mistake from the start. No, Goodell will not eat that crow.
I do expect Goodell tomorrow will be talking non-stop on the phone to the refs and will end the lockout before next weekend. If not, I hope all the teams refuse to play next Sunday.
Joel
Good to see the refs royally fucking up both prime time games and the national broadcast afternoon game. I think I am honestly not going to watch any more football this year.
Dennis SGMM
My son and I watched the game until the bullshit unnecessary roughness call that gave Seattle fifteen yards and a first down.
Goodell’s intransigence on behalf of the owners is going to permanently damage the NFL. Fans want to see a game, not a lottery where the winner is determined not by the play but by blown calls from sloppy referees.
rb
@smith: who knows the fuckery that will occur in Week 4?
Roughing the passer called on the offense.
Line judge actually tackling a player as time runs out.
… it’s actually hard to come up with something worse than tonight, but I have faith they’ll get ‘er done.
Mr Stagger Lee
@Steeplejack: Don Vito will no doubt have some referee legs broken, unless one of them was in on it, hell last week it was discovered that a ref, before working the Saints-Panthers game was a die hard Saints fan. It will be interesting how Seattle sports radio will spin it. They may take the victory but it will be awkward.
Nom de Plume
Cheer up John, this is how Seahawks fans felt after your Steelers “won” their Super Bowl against them.
Steeplejack
@MattR:
So the sports book will move the line to make it more attractive for people to bet against the Packers. Like I said, the book wants exactly the same amount of money bet on both teams in the game. Which is why the betting line is not always a completely reliable predictor of the actual outcome. Especially in college football, where there are tons of homer fans who will bet on dear old State U. no matter what the line is.
Spaghetti Lee
@rb:
“Foul. Offense, number 16. Double dribble. Free home run for the other team.”
Danoman
Officials to Roger Goodell’s office-“Pay up, Bitches!”
Or something like that.Suffern Ace
@The Dangerman: They should scrap the nfl and add WWE matches for one week.
? Martin
Whine, whine, whine. Have you guys seen some of the officiating in MLB? 2009 ALCS? Last years 19 inning Braves/Pirates? And these were the regular umps…
Geoduck
Maybe Goodall will settle, but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the scabs are still on the field next weekend.
jharp
@Steeplejack:
You got it right.
And to break even betting football you have to to 11 out of 21 or about 52.3%.
10 losses @ $100 per game plus vigorish = $1,100
11 wins @$100 per game = $1,100
Doable but tough to beat.
KG
@Danoman: Most of the NFL analysts are former players. Of course they are going to be critical when it’s screwing with the game. These guys understand that the ame gave them a lot more than they’d have had otherwise. They can’t like watching the integrity of their game effed with like this
rb
@Spaghetti Lee: LOL, seriously. Receiver called offsides for being behind the defense when a pass was thrown, defense awarded corner kick.
Yutsano
@? Martin: :: snicker ::
Mnemosyne
I have to admit, I’ve really only been following this story through comments, but let’s see if I have this right: the NFL owners decided to try and fuck over the referees, but so far have only managed to fuck each other over. Is that about right?
Political Observer
I for one am absolutely lovin’ it! Good old fashioned, smash-mouth, no holds barred, sandlot football!
Some of you ladies need to put on a skirt if you can’t handle watching it!
The owners are in it for one reason only–to make as much money as possible. That’s their job. The Refs are a liability.
? Martin
@Yutsano: Yeah, no gloating over shitty calls. Your team was still worse this game.
MattR
@The Dangerman: That is one possibility. The NFL and Vegas have a weird relationship and I was wondering if there are some unwritten agreements in place that Vegas could decide they no longer feel like honoring.
@Steeplejack: They try to find balance but it is often pretty hard for the public teams. If they move the line too much, the Vegas sharps will jump on the other side and can dump enough money to flip things so significantly more money is on the other side.
smith
@? Martin:
Oh, MLB officials are terrible. I won’t argue with you there. And arrogant as fuck and think the fans are there to see them and not the players.
The NFL always had the most professional referees. Yeah they weren’t perfect, but not this constant nonsense we’re seeing from these replacements.
BGinCHI
Props to Steve Young in the post-game for saying the truth.
The owners suck salty balls.
peggy
@Foxhunter: Scabs, chaos or violence (pick one) always accompany strikes. If the workers would just placidly lie die and take it, there would be no problems. Monday Night Football would go on as scheduled.
I’m just saying that we have to own the fact that fighting for justice creates disorder, which ticks off lots of people.
Mnemosyne
@Steeplejack:
I think the actual danger is that Vegas will see a sharp decline in NFL betting. Sports betters aren’t the same guys who throw their money away on roulette. They like to think they have skills that let them evaluate each team and decide which one will win.
If it all becomes a game of chance due to bad officiating, they’ll find more reliable things to bet on.
Roger Moore
@Dennis SGMM:
Don’t underestimate the fans’ ability to forgive. A lot of baseball fans said they’d never forgive the canceled World Series in 1994, but they were back in record numbers just a few years later. The game is bigger than the problems of the moment.
MattR
@peggy: There is no strike. The refs are locked out by the owners.
? Martin
@Political Observer: Fuck yeah! Put a bayonet on the helmets and they won’t even need to pay the players pensions! Capitalism! Unlimited broadcast cash!
Quincy
If America can’t support a labor action when an extremely small pool of uniquely experienced irreplaceable workers in a highly lucrative industry with no foreign competitor tries to hang onto defined pensions against a cabal of billionaire plutocrats who revive massive public welfare in the form of stadium subsidies and yet are willing to piss all over the nation’s most popular televised entertainment to show they’re in charge…we’re all fucked.
Mnemosyne
D’oh! I didn’t realize that all games of chance throw you into moderation. Little help, please?
Mr Stagger Lee
@smith: The MLB has nothing on NBA refs. Do they call traveling, not on the stars of the game. Did Michael Jordan ever foul out? Did Magic Johnson?> or Larry Bird? How about double dribbling? Don’t ask!
Mnemosyne
@peggy:
Are you oblivious to the fact that the vast majority of the fans are pissed off at the owners, not the workers?
Gex
@smith: So the “it’s a short season, every game counts” hype for the games is over?
“Meh. There will be more, so do whatever this time.” is hardly a way to hype the game.
Steeplejack
@jharp:
Which is why I don’t bet, except occasionally on a whim. You’re not just picking winners and losers, you’re trying to gauge winning by exactly how much against a pool of thousands, if not millions, of other (possibly savvy) bettors.
In my software career I have worked with a few deluded souls who thought they could write a program to beat the odds. The one seared into my memory is the officemate back in the ’80s who wrote his program in COBOL on an MP/M machine. Good times.
Roger Moore
@Mnemosyne:
Does a bear shit in the woods?
Dennis SGMM
@Roger Moore:
You are probably right. The owners are probably counting on just that.
peggy
@Argive:
I didn’t know it was a lockout. But my point still stands. If the refs totally capitulated, probably they would all be hired back. (Unless Reagan’s ghost is running the NFL.)
If labor fights, it creates messes for the public. Even picket lines are a nuisance- I know because I’ve been on them.
Gex
@Spaghetti Lee: Can we call incomplete passes on first downs a ‘let’ going forward? Obviously you’d get to do the first down over.
ETA: The title of the book I referred to before is Head First HTML with CSS & XHTML. I’ve been late to these threads and am not sure what responses you’ve seen. I did see you got lots of other good responses too.
smith
@Mr Stagger Lee:
Yes, NBA refs are starfuckers. They are almost like fans rather than referees.
NFL refs (the real ones) earn significantly less than what their counterparts in MLB, NBA, and NHL make. I don’t blame them for wanting more.
Steeplejack
@MattR:
Then they just readjust the line. Most books adjust their lines right up until game day. It’s not rocket surgery and it’s not The Sting, it’s just numbers.
Seanly
I hope we see more & more of the announcers say fuck it to their corporate masters & call out the terrible refs. You can hear it when they grit through their teeth – “That was an interesting call. What a novel approach to the rules.”
NonStopRocka
I wonder if this game actually can shift public perception of unions, or at least initiate a dialog on a huge stage. I have read a couple of posts on facebook by the, shall we say, typographically challenged, and they all read to the effect of “hey rich guys! Pony up, and stop wrecking our game!”. its kind of surreal.
Steeplejack
@Mnemosyne:
Not so far. They’re still making money hand over fist because all the games are being played as usual. People are pissed, and getting more so, but the owners haven’t lost a dime yet.
Political Observer
Come on! Am I the only one who kind of likes this style of WWFNFL? Way more exciting than the regular refs who put skirts on the QBs.
Geoduck
@smith:
Since it clearly can’t be repeated often enough.. the referees are NOT on strike. They have been locked out.
Political Observer
You guys really want to pussify the game don’t you?
Spaghetti Lee
@NonStopRocka:
I think if people who care about the issue (i.e. liberals) really stress the point that these guys are union workers, and so are your kids’ teachers and the local cops and firefighters and even the guys at the factory and also union workers, and when rich people try to fuck with union contracts it makes things worse even for people who aren’t in the union. Maybe I’m being snooty, but it seems like the connection between Ed Hochuli and Mrs. Smith the second grade teacher isn’t immediately obvious to a lot of people. Not that that can’t be changed.
GxB
@peggy: Okay, I call shenanigans here – Come on Doug, Come clean.
Peggy as in “Nooners”
FlipYrWhig
@Political Observer: Your comment would make some sense if the dispute were about somebody getting hurt. It wasn’t.
smith
@Political Observer:
So you’re waiting for Roger Goodell to come down on the field, talk smack about the players and get whacked over the head with a steel chair by James Harrison?
NewHavenGuy
@ Mr. Cole: AMEN.
Decent enough call on the hail mary, and yes that play was exciting football.
You know what’s not (you do, sorry preaching to the choir)? Holding, Procedure, over and over again. PI and Def holding that might or might not exist, but will be called/not called randomly by a bunch of Pop Warner motherfuckers who are still thinking “damn, it’s so much faster on this level.”
On a football level it infuriates me, and I’m from Connecticut. On a labor level? Will outsource to Corey Robin.
Two prime time games in a row, decided on the final play. And still both were awful, nearly unwatchable as football games. Almost enough to think that sports team owners are mostly meglomaniac right wing idiots.’
I love NFL football, I’ll watch. Buy tickets, or trinkets? Hah, fuck them.
Comrade Luke
I wish it would change the attitude toward unions, but I doubt that will happen. If anything, this is more about people having an opinion, except when it actually affects something they care about.
I hate unions, but bring back the refs because my team lost.
I hate government, but if you don’t pay for my stadium I’ll move my team.
I hate taxes, but if you have to raise taxes to subsidize my stadium, fine by me.
Not that much different than “I hate gays, but I now support gay marriage because my daughter is gay and she’s cool” or anything else.
smith
@Geoduck:
Chill dude I edited/fixed my post a good five-six minutes before you posted. Peggy syndrome infected me.
Gex
“I didn’t know what I was talking about at all. But I’m still right” isn’t a terribly convincing close to an argument.
MattR
@Steeplejack: I get all that but sometimes they just can’t do it when they are on a magic number like 3 so all they can do is adjust the juice to try and influence things. As an example if the favorite has 50K more on it at -3, a sportsbook may know that as soon as they move to 3.5 the wiseguys will dump close to $250K on the favorite. So they accept the uneven money on the favorite as the lesser of 2 evils.
James E. Powell
If labor fights, it creates messes for the public. Even picket lines are a nuisance- I know because I’ve been on them.
In the history of the world, have working people ever gotten improved wages or working conditions other than by creating messes & nuisances?
Has the ruling class ever not worked to lower wages in a recession?
Kane
The NFL isn’t even fun to watch anymore. Everyone is frustrated and angry throughout the game.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Steeplejack:
Sometimes I think sports team owners are more like Hanover Fist.
Kane
Sport imitating life.
MattR
@Steeplejack: Ratings might actually get a short term bump as people tune in to see what the controversy is about and/or how the refs will screw up next. (EDIT: Which is actually pretty depressing since that would just embolden the owners to stick to their guns)
JeffH
@Roger Moore: I actually see a fundamental difference. In 1994-5, the anger was “Everyone is being greedy.” The danger for the NFL now is “The games are crooked.” That’s a lot harder to come back from than being viewed as greedy.
Comrade Luke
@JeffH:
Come back? Come back from what? The game is more popular than ever. The fans are still going to the games, paying $25+ for parking, $10 for beer, etc. The owners are not feeling any impact wrt this, at all.
Slaughter
The big argument had been, “Well, at least the scab refs haven’t cost a team the game.” Now they have.
billgerat
Another thing barely touched upon: even after the refs reviewed the play under the hood, they backed up the field call. Completely bewildering.
peggy
@Mnemosyne:
I don’t have a TV, so I was just reacting to the tone of the comments on the thread. They seemed to just complain about the lousy calls- not the lousy owners. The thread reminded me of all the complaints I’ve heard about strikes, which I thought was ironic on a left wing blog.
Seriously, having participated in many disruptive left wing activities which were publicly reviled and fought by the police, I think developing a bit of self-awareness is worthwhile. Militancy has to be measured.
NewHavenGuy
@Comrade Luke: No. Shit.
I wish it would too. I should admit that I’ve never been a union member myself, but it is not all about wages, benefits and coffee breaks- building a superior product is good business for all involved. (Cheers to ChiTown teachers btw, a win for the kids more than for themselves.)
OTOH, shaving payroll makes your quarter look AWESOME and then BONUS TIME! (Next quarter is someone else’s problem, of course, because you’ve moved up to a higher level of incompetence by then.)
In a lot of ways, the US economy is a parody of economic management of a great power. I hope Goodell pushes the labor bullshit a few more week, maybe even some unlikely
angry white folks with dickspeople will get it.Steeplejack
@MattR:
Okay, I bow to your obvious insider knowledge of the sordid gambling demimonde. But tell me this, how does the mob (in your example) know that 3.5 is the magic tipping point where they should dump $250K on the favorite? They could be just as wrong as anyone else.
MattR
@billgerat: The simultaneous possession rule is considered a judgement call that cannot be reviewed.
Steeplejack
@The prophet Nostradumbass:
My favorite team in the Bundesliga!
Roger Moore
@MattR:
And they don’t have to get it perfectly balanced every time. The vig gives them a margin of error; as long as they get the two sides balanced to within 10%, they’ll make at least a little bit of money. Even if they don’t, sometimes the unbalanced betting will work in their favor. As long as there are lots of games and they do a decent job of setting the lines to balance the money, they’ll make out OK because of the law of averages. The big risk is from the big games where there’s tens or hundreds of times as much money on the line as a single regular season game. Get the line wrong on the Superbowl, and you could wind up losing all the money you made during the regular season.
Thor Heyerdahl
@peggy:
Bullshit
peggy
@Quincy:
I think I said that about Air Traffic Controllers.
Yes, we are fucked.
MattR
@Steeplejack: It’s not the mob, it’s the “sharps” who have their databases of past results and computer formulas to determine power rankings. The sportsbook doesn’t always know how these people will bet, but sometimes they have a pretty good feeling based on history (possibly even earlier in the week since as you noted the lines can move all the way up until kickoff). Something like 15-20% of games finish with a 3 point difference making it a magic number for the spread and it takes quite a bit of money to get a sportsbook to move off of it (7 and 10 are other magic numbers but to a lesser extent).
The Dangerman
@Steeplejack:
Yes, that’s true, but a huge bet would move the line back.
For the books, the best of all worlds is that 50% bet one team and 50% bet the other; that’s why the lines move, as if money is going too much towards one or the other teams, the line changes to compensate. For example, back in the day of the dominant Niners (80’s into the 90’s), if you placed a bet in Reno, it was actually to your advantage to bet against the Niners as there was so much SF money being bet for the Niners, it was moving the line. Not by much, but enough to skew the numbers so that, over the long term, it was best to bet against the Niners.
Radio One
I think the only people who watched tonight’s MNF game were either NFL masochists willing to slit their wrists over the prospect of a possible ruined NFL season, or cynical assholes who enjoy watching a tower of shit burn itself into the fucking ground.
And I don’t even remotely like the Packers. If NFL owners were sane, they’d realize Roger Goodell has long been the most hated…who am I kidding? Are you ready for some “football” next week?
The prophet Nostradumbass
@peggy: Obvious troll is obvious.
Roger Moore
@The Dangerman:
This explains exactly how a smart bettor can make money despite the house’s take. Enough people bet their emotions rather than realistic odds that the contrarian minority tends to make money in the long term. I assume that this works best when betting New York teams in Atlantic City, Bay Area teams in Reno, and LA teams in Las Vegas.
peggy
@James E. Powell:
All I’m trying to say is use this thread to look at our reactions to the fact that when labor fights, ordinary life gets disrupted.
I’m in favor of workers rights, but I’m just pointing out that the side effects can irritate even the dedicated lefties of balloon juice and we should use this chance for reflection.
Steeplejack
@The Dangerman:
Yes, and they (the “wiseguys”) could still be on the wrong side of it.
MattR was not talking about the book’s exposure, he was talking about the “wiseguys” beating the book.
Thanks for re-explaining that.
RareSanity
@Political Observer:
Says the person that’s never played…
Tell you what…I did’t even play in the NFL, just a little linebacker in college…we put on equipment, someone can hand you the ball, and you try to get past me.
After you stop seeing stars when I lay your ass out…then talk about how ‘pussified’ the game is.
You stand there, as a quarterback, and have someone like Demarcus Ware… at 6’4″, 265 lbs, running a 4.5 40 yard dash, hit you from your blind side…running full speed. Then comment on whether or not the steps being taken to protect players are warranted.
Roger Moore
@Steeplejack:
That’s true, but they’re playing the odds. They win some and lose some, and as long as they win more than 11 times for every 10 times they lose, they’ll come out ahead in the long run.
Roger Moore
@Steeplejack:
That’s true, but they’re playing the odds. They win some and lose some, and as long as they win more than 11 times for every 10 times they lose, they’ll come out ahead in the long run.
CW in LA
Awwww, a weird call goes the Seahawks way for just one fucking time and the east coast sports media are shitting their collective pants?
Well, fuck ’em. Fuck the league’s glamor teams, especially fuck the stealers, and fuck Bill Leavy. I guess that’s how you can tell these aren’t the regular refs, that they’re shafting the wrong teams.
CW in LA
Awwww, a weird call goes the Seahawks way for just one fucking time and the east coast sports media are shitting their collective pants?
Well, fuck ’em. Fuck the league’s glamor teams, especially fuck the stealers, and fuck Bill Leavy. I guess that’s how you can tell these aren’t the regular refs, that they’re shafting the wrong teams.
Yutsano
@peggy:
LOLWUT??
(Edit buttons got eted by Tunch.)
Yutsano
@peggy:
LOLWUT??
(Edit buttons got eted by Tunch.)
The prophet Nostradumbass
@CW in LA: That may be the silliest misreading of this yet.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Yutsano: as I said at comment 54: Troll.
Darkrose
@smith: Roger Goodell is making Bud Selig look good.
J R in WVa
@Batocchio:
No, No, No! The worst call was the non-penalty on that hit that nearly killed a guy. I guess they were so upset by the endangered player they forgot to throw a flag!
Should be arrested for conspiracy to commit murder!
Darkrose
@Roger Moore:
You know why, right?
“Chicks dig the long ball.”
The Sosa/McGwire home run record chase riveted the baseball world to the point where MLB found it easy to ignore the questions about where these guys were getting all their power. Everyone always points at Barry Bonds, but he certainly wasn’t the one who started the “steroid era”. And as long as teams were raking in bucks, no one gave a shit.
Wally Ballou
I’m a UAW worker at a Michigan assembly plant. You’d think if anyone would understand the labor principles at stake, it’d be my union brothers on the line. But when I told them I’m boycotting the NFL and why, to a man (and woman) they looked at me like I was from Krypton.
Of course, I’ve always been a lukewarm NFL fan to begin with, so my principled boycott doesn’t cost me that much. When you really, really like how the sausage tastes, though, it’s hard to get worked up about what’s in it or how it’s made.
J R in WVa
@? Martin:
Oh, Come on! Everybody knows the strike zone is arbitrarily different on every pitch! Umpires don’t even wear glasses!
J R in WVa
@peggy:
It isn’t at STRIKE! It’s a LOCKOUT by the owners! C’mon, get with it.
J R in WVa
@Steeplejack:
I once worked with a DBA who wrote a program to pick winning Powerball (or some lottery like that) numbers. Kept reworking it after every pull, too!
Sad. He was sure one more tweak would do it.
AxelFoley
@Batocchio:
You must have not seen “The Tuck Rule” game.
Worst fucking call in NFL history, and set the Pats on course to become a dynasty. If the refs call that one right, the Pats miss out on the Super Bowl and probably go back to obscurity.
Another face in the crowd
@KDS: Thanks for the input. Mom and Dad will call you up from the basement when your PB&J sandwich is ready.
NorrisW
@Bobby D: college ball? The corruption that exists in college football makes the NFL look like saints in comparison. College football exploits its labor, reserving payment to coaches and athletic directors. I haven’t watched college football in years…I refuse to support such corruption.
The NFL owners are greedy, corrupt and petty people but please don’t suggest that college football is purer.
NorrisW
@CW in LA: you hit the nail right on the head. Nothing will ever compare with the fiasco that was super bowl XL, and that egg was laid by the NFL so called best refs.
NorrisW
@CW in LA: you hit the nail right on the head. Nothing will ever compare with the fiasco that was super bowl XL, and that egg was laid by the NFL so called best refs.
John PM
Late to the thread, but after watching last night’s game, I think the players should refuse to play until the refs are back. That was quite possibly the worst football game I have ever seen.
Marilyn Merlot
I love the irony of Scott fucking Walker tweeting that the NFL should return the real referees.
WarMunchkin
@Mark S.: Hold on a fucking second. Borderlands was an awesome game and well-received by most of the gaming community. While, yes, gaming journalists suck ass, the method of argument here is unsuitable.
thalarctos
@Violet:
Goodell’s real bosses have names like NBC, CBS, ESPN and Fox. If the ratings start to droop, they will inform him of their collective displeasure.
Jebediah
@Political Observer:
Fuck yourself. NFL players are workers, and workers deserve protection from unnecessary injury. Yes, it’s a rough game and injuries will always happen, but deliberately making it worse in order to fuck a union and save a few pennies is sociopathic assholism. Which must be why you are gleefully OK with it.
PaulW
The bad calls from the replacement refs are league-wide and getting worse. It doesn’t help that the players and coaches don’t respect the replacements, which increases the likelihood of constant player cheating (jersey tugs by CBs on WRs have gone up but penalty calls gone down; outright holding by OL on the defense is getting to where blind people can see it).
And the owners don’t care, because we keep tuning in and we keep taking the sh-t. Well, no more. John Cole is right: he’s out, he’s not tuning in anymore. And so should we.
Stop going to games. Keep the TVs off. Don’t go to sports bars this Sunday. Stop buying merch at the fandom stores. And make damn sure the commissioner’s office knows why.
The owners’ lockout is purely about greed (they are fighting over what, 3 million dollars?! For the entire referee union? You can get a three year rookie contract for one player on that!). It’s about damn well time the owners realize where the money is really coming from: THE FANS.
#OccupyNFL
kblast
@encephalopath:
They need to pay the refs and stop the madness before there is an actual stadium riot. Rodger Good ell should go bye bye
kabiddle
Stupidity of Goodell aside, you gotta love the priorities of the union-busters and to a degree the rank and file public — there hasn’t been so much noise about unionized workers since Reagan and the air traffic controllers. I guess unqualified replacements are ok over the friendly skies. . .