You know you have a problem when even the first runner up in the John McCain Get Off My Lawn Steeplechase — Tommy Thompson — has a better handle on setting standards for his kids than does the Party of Family Values nominee for president, W. Mitt Romney.
I know that the Thompson fils “apology” for going birther on the President was weak sauce indeed, but still, Thompson père was sufficiently engaged to assert a family norm:
Later, however, the campaign sent a statement: “The Governor has addressed this with his son, just like any father would do. Jason Thompson said something he should not have, and he apologizes.”
Flash forward to aspiring punk Tagg Romney, and that now-familiar bit of macho posturing (via GOS):
Bill LuMay, WPTF talk radio:What is it like for you to hear the President of the United States call your dad a liar?
Tagg Romney: Well, you want to jump out of your seat and rush down to the debate stage and take a swing at him.
Before getting into the meat of the parenting failure here, let me point you to a completely imagined footnote to capture my contempt for the kind person who utters such utterly safe, after-the-fact macho stylings.*
Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming:
Ta-Nehisi Coates, who has been killing it on his blog lately, nails the brute fact that lies behind Tagg’s stated desire to beat down that African-American guy who had the temerity to speak to his father without the requisite deference.
It’s worth trying to imagine any black man associated with a credible black candidate for the presidency, joking about beating down the incumbent president of the United States. Racism isn’t just in what you do and don’t say, but in the terrain you walk. It is baked in the cake — a fact which is hard to understand when you are the party of white people.
In a follow up post, Ta-Nehisi allows Romney’s defenders to make his point. Katrina Trinko, writing at National Review, presented an alternative argument to rebut claims of racism. Her take: lighten up, everyone. It was just a joke. Both sides do it:
In Wisconsin, I asked her [Michelle Obama] if she was offended by Bill Clinton’s use of the phrase ‘fairytale’ to describe her husband’s characterisation of his position on the Iraq war. At first, [Michelle] Obama responded with a curt ‘No’. But, after a few seconds, she affected a funny voice. ‘I want to rip his eyes out!’ she said, clawing at the air with her fingernails. One of her advisers gave her a nervous look. ‘Kidding!’ Obama said. ‘See, this is what gets me into trouble.’
Ta-Nehisi’s response:
To point out the obvious, the phrase “black man” was not accidental. In America black men, specifically, enjoy the stereotype of being hyper-violent — one which regrettably spans the political spectrum. Michelle Obama is many things. “Black man” is not one of them.
Obviously (at least I hope so) I’m with Ta-Nehisi here.
Tagg’s bluster comes directly out of that haze of untouchability and unchecked agency that is the point of secure privilege. Only those with unencumbered access to power get to say stuff like that — and the “boys will be boys” line of those making excuses for the insufferable Tagg is exactly the form in which privilege maintains the world view that makes such unearned goods available to those on top. One can’t imagine a black man getting away with bragging about wanting to strike a white president because to do so violates all we know in our bones about the way power and authority is divided in this society…which, of course, is exactly what makes Obama so important, and so threatening to those for whom the end of the assumption of white privilege is unacceptable.
There’s more than just race at play, to be sure. Class is a big thing here, at least as I see it. As I say below, we’ve all encountered a Tagg — all noise and fury after it’s wholly safe to bluster. But there’s more than just barroom courage here (or, in deference to Tagg’s beliefs, I guess I should say soda-fountain fortitude).
Tagg Romney has never had to face a moment of material uncertainty — much less want — in his life. He spent his life in the company of those similarly fortunate, or those who defer to his material and status advantages. He gets to think that whacking someone — anyone, not just the President — is perfectly routine reaction to his frustration because no one in his charmed circle has ever dared to school the young prince.
You don’t get this kind of nonsense unless the speaker is at some critical emotional level unaware of the meaning his words — and such obliviousness is born of the bubble in which class advantage secures and imprisons you.
And that’s where the Romney parents’ failure comes in.
I known some seriously wealthy people, and count as good friends some of their number. I know their kids. I’ve seen what you do when you want them to grow up right.
The essence of the lesson: manners.
Simple as that. (And yeah, I know I’m channeling my inner fogey. Live with it.)
Regard for others; awareness of the debt of gratitude and obligation of respect due to those whom you encounter along the way; acceptance of the duty of courtesy you owe both strangers and your own — hell, just remembering to say thank you for the most anonymous of services, the busser filling your water glass or whatever.
The purpose is not simply to reward a favor done, nor to recognize some stranger momentarily encountered, nor even to inculcate an awareness of the degree to which you depend on, say, those who clothe you and feed you and keep you warm (though all of these are damned important).
Rather, the ultimate reason parents try to teach their kids the basics of social interaction is the same behind the instruction in basic training: the sergeant puts you through the repetition of drill not because troops in combat use parade-ground manoeuvres, but because the system aims to create a world view, a set of mental reactions that don’t have to be thought; they’re just part of who you are. And as a parent, you — I! — want my kid just to know that other people matter, and never have to step through to the understanding that those folks out there are real, and that they exist in relationships to him that impose obligations on everyone involved.**
Tagg somehow missed that lesson. The words are his, and he owns whatever scorn and disgust he earns with them. But Tommy Thompson understood at least this much: that it was his job to say both that his son’s words were not acceptable: not as public discourse, and — crucially — not as part of his own family culture.
Mitt’s reaction to Tagg’s tantrum?
…
…
…
[Crickets]I’ll leave it to others to decide what this tells us about a man who would be president.
*Here it is: anyone who’s been out and about even a little has run into a guy like Tagg. He’s the fellow with store-bought abs who’s watched the entire Mel Gibson filmography who when he gets really, really mad, throws his chest out, spreads his arms wide, fists forming, bends his elbows — ready to grab — and tells his friends “hold me back!”
And then again: “really guys, I’m ready to go for him, better hold me back. Hold me.”
And then his makes his strain and his face twists. He shouts something and his buddies tug a little on him. He shrugs, as if breaking a way — but not too hard; never too hard. And then he lets himself be led away, telling anyone in earshot how that other fellow was lucky, lucky, that the gang wouldn’t let him get into it.
Chickenhawk, in other words. Coward, in a party that seems to thrive on an endless supply of those hollow men who talk the talk but never walked the walk.(Why yes, five-deferment-shoot-your-friend-in-the-face-Dick Cheney, I’m looking at you. Why do you ask. And at your codpiece too, Mr. Bush.)
Tagg’s a punk, and all I can think when I look at his image is how much I’d like to take his lunch money.
****An aside: my son came home from school yesterday telling me about how he and his best friend were trying to get a couple of other kids they know to stop taunting and goading their classmates. He was upset that the teachers monitoring recess weren’t on the case, but he wasn’t letting it slide to them either. I couldn’t have been more proud. (Though my wife did send off an immediate email to the proper folks, of course.)
Images: Thomas Eakin, Between Rounds, 1899
J. W. M. Turner, The Slave Ship, 1840. I think I’ve used this painting before, but hell — it’s a truly great work of art, and I believe it’s important to remember as best we can the sustained, lethal violence at the heart of the history of race in America. Turner’s picture does that better than any words of mine could. So you get to look at it again.
Xecky Gilchrist
Nicely said. It is a fine illustration of privilege, and the defenses / denials of privilege that are *also* only possible with privilege.
As I say below, we’ve all encountered a Tagg—all noise and fury after it’s wholly safe to bluster.
Online, especially. If it weren’t for the piefilter I’d read 20,000 words a day from the bastards right here.
Jay in Oregon
I said something like this before: most people realize that the more you talk about what you totally would have done to that guy, the more full of shit you are.
Steve
I heard that one of the younger Romney brothers said that, as someone who had been slugged by Tagg in the past, he could assure the President that he had nothing to worry about. Now unlike the original comment, that was pretty funny.
Mnemosyne
For some reason, the whole things reminds me of an exchange in Head Office, which is a not-so-great film with a lot of amazingly quotable lines:
Pete Helmes (Eddie Albert): In the old days, I’d have had that son of a bitch in cement and thrown into the river faster than you can say Henry Ford!
Scott Dantley (Michael O’Donoghue): Unfortunately, sir, these are the post-Watergate 80s.
Tom Levenson
@Steve: Hadn’t heard that. Give that Romney credit.
elmo
One of my best friends in college was, at that time, himself a billionaire. This was in the mid-80s. His wealth was inherited.
He was one of the warmest, most down-to-earth, and kindest “regular guys” I’ve ever known. One of our mutual friends was ill at home at one point, and my very wealthy friend strung a telephone cord down four stories so he could bring his phone into the dining hall and lead the entire packed hall in a rendition of “Happy Birthday” to our friend who was home sick. I have dozens of stories like that about this guy – he was just an incredible mensch. Needless to say, none of my tales would involve holding somebody down and forcibly cutting off his hair.
Yes. Manners. Empathy. Compassion. Basic human fucking decency. Money doesn’t erase those things, but it can certainly make it easy to grow up without them – if that’s what you want.
Quaker in a Basement
An old pal of mine who grew up in 1960s Atlanta says Tagg did not receive sufficient “home training.”
If that term isn’t familiar to you, look it up. It’s a southernism I haven’t heard in many years.
beergoggles
My FB feed was blowing up with the “Last night Gov Romney blamed parents for the violent tendencies of their children. Then Tagg Romney said he wanted to punch the president.”
Fucking entitled hypocrites the lot of them.
Mnemosyne
@Steve:
IIRC, that was Josh, the guy who had the Vulcan death stare during the debate. And I have to admit, it was a pretty funny and smooth.
The Other Bob
Everyone should seek out a Romney rally where Tagg will be attending, and hold up a sign that says:
“Hey Tagg – I think your dad is a liar too! Hit me instead.”
Quaker in a Basement
@Mnemosyne: Is that the one with Danny DeVito? You’re right, it wasn’t great. It was hilarious.
Chris
@Xecky Gilchrist:
COME BACK HERE AND SAY THAT TO MY FACE! YEAH, I’M TALKING TO YOU! IF I WERE THERE IN PERSON I’D SPRAWL YOU ACROSS THE SIDEWALK!
/internet tough guy
keith
And the week before one of the Romney’s was bragging that Mitt “spanked a petulant child.” Just asinine.
SFAW
What I don’t quite comprehend is how Tagg’s comment is a “joke.” I mean, if I were stupid enough to try to make that kind of joke, I’d probably do a Miracle Max “Oy, I wanted to give him SUCH a smack!” type of thing. But I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone talking about talking a swing on someone, unless it was my frat brothers joking around with each other. But the intra-frat relationship is generally significantly different from the relationship between Tagg and the President, or between Tagg and the news guy.
I’m thinking Tagg’s probably lucky that Malia and Sasha don’t have a 20-year-old brother with a chip on his shoulder. (Not that he would, given his parents.) But I’d pay good money to see that beatdown.
nitpicker
Didn’t Romney say during the debate that single-parent families and being poor were a couple of the causes of violence? I guess being pampered and privileged are the causes of pretend violence.
ruemara
I remember the first time I saw that Turner painting and the impact of it’s beautiful destruction. I can’t quite construct the sentence that conveys how it made me feel, realizing the pinpoints of dark in that fiery hell water were people tossed overboard.
It is strangely apropos as a concept of black in America, tossed out of the safe berth, one you didn’t choose but you’re on it anyway. One side is sink or swim against near overwhelming, elemental force. The other side is to stay onboard, fate unknown but where your choices are limited and a level of disaster can be sensed.
It’s always disturbing to me.
The Moar You Know
@Mnemosyne: Matt. Not death stare guy. And if you’re looking for the successful politician in the family it’s going to be him, because that was a very smooth comeback. Puts the brother’s ridiculous bellicosity in check without humiliating him excessively, and shows respect to the President in a way that the rest of the family doesn’t bother with – but America still expects.
I’m betting that’s George’s genes cropping up. That degree of tact, foresight and grace is certainly not something he got from either his father or mother.
rikyrah
did you see Larry O last night on this topic? hilarious
SFAW
@nitpicker:
Fixed to comport more accurately with Tagg’s persona.
gocart mozart
If I ever have the pleasure of meeting Tagg, I would totally beat the shit out of him. ;)
dmsilev
Let’s not blame Mitt; he has a medical condition:
(Link)
Frankensteinbeck
@SFAW:
There is a kind of humor where you discuss something you would like to do, but with irony because you know it is impossible, dangerous, or socially unacceptable. Usually the humor is enhanced by making the description silly. ‘I should give him the parachute back, hold my nose, and jump out of the plane yelling GERONIMOOOOO!’ is an example. No, it’s not the greatest humor in the world. It can be enormously cathartic, and thus is very popular among hateful people barely restraining socially unacceptable anger. It can be easily used to cover for flat-out non-humorous fantasies of violence as well.
Shorter summary: Yes, it’s a kind of joke. The humor is ‘I know I can’t get away with it.’ It is Limbaugh’s favorite humor.
Cermet
@Steve: That Romney kid sounds like he is mature and has learned some honor.
Cassidy
@Jay in Oregon: Had a Tagg do something like that once and I hit him in the mouth when he first pushed forward. The look of surprise and animal pain was worth the suspension.
And remember that “Tagg” is relative. In the South, a tagg is likely to be a lawyer or doctor or military officer’s kid. They don’t have to be wealthy; they just have to be wealthier than the surrounding population.
Speaking of just being decent, When I was younger, about 13, and assuming the mantle of “man of the house” after my Dad left, I decided to take what little money I made mowing lawns and pay for my family to go to dinner. It was one of those buffett places that we always ate at: shitty food, haggard wait staff, etc. Anyway, our waitress hadn’t been back in a while and my Mom was complaining. So, when she finally did come back I very rudely demanded better service, etc. I’ve always regretted that. I realize I was a kid and didn’t know any better, maybe, but I can’t imagine the humiliation of being told what to do by a 13 y/o and just having to take it. I have no idea how she didn’t slap the shit out of me. I wish there was a way to go back and say I’m sorry. But even worse, my Mother and Sister were both laughing and thought it was okay. The two adults at the table did nothing.
Don’t know why I told that. Just felt appropriate.
gocart mozart
@The Other Bob:
Great idea.
rlrr
For some reason, this quote comes to mind:
If you define cowardice as running away at the first sign of danger, screaming and tripping and begging for mercy, then yes, Mr. Brave man, I guess I’m a coward.
— Jack Handey
The Bearded Blogger
10’000’000:1
Proportion between times a racist asshole imagines fighting one on one with a minority to times said asshole actually does it.
debbie
It’s been a couple billion years since I took Intro to Psych, but isn’t Tagg really just compensating for his lacking something somewhere else?
Ecks
good post.
Mara Holbrook
Tagg Romney is 42 years old. A bit past the expiration date for “boys will be boys.”
rlrr
@Mara Holbrook:
In Republican years, anything he does can be considered a youthful indiscretion.
The Bearded Blogger
@Mara Holbrook: 42 is like 13 in spoiled billionair offspring years…
SFAW
@dmsilev:
I was going to post that link, but I see I’m – yet again – a minute late and an Euro short.
The clip I saw (at GOS) was pretty funny. It may not win Obama the election, but I can see it going viral in short order. (Of course, I also thought Betamax would go viral, so take my comments with the appropriate salt dosage.)
Cassidy
@Cassidy: Didn’t beat the clock so:
ETA: It’s not fair to say I didn’t know better or was just a kid. I was odl enough to know better. I wish I had been taught better. That was a perfectly acceptable response in my family, and we were poor.
The Bearded Blogger
@debbie: You’re saying his Mitt lacks sufficient stature?
SFAW
@debbie:
I REALLY don’t want to be told whether you’re correct in your supposition.
Frankensteinbeck
@debbie:
‘Respect as an individual from his parents’, yes. All public appearances and descriptions of their home life emphasize that the Romney sons are viewed as tools of their father’s ambitions and Mormonism, not people. That’s a great way to raise a vicious asshole.
Hill Dweller
OT: Obama has unveiled a new “Romnesia” line on the stump today, where riffs on Willard’s flip flops and lies. He also says Obamacare covers pre-existing conditions, so the condition is curable. It is actually pretty good.
The Bearded Blogger
@SFAW: It’s a sign that Obama and his team are back on their A-Game. Biden lead the way: obvious lies need to be laughed at.
FlipYrWhig
@Hill Dweller: Hadn’t heard the part about “preexisting conditions.” That’s a well-executed bit.
catclub
@Mara Holbrook: “Tagg Romney is 42 years old. A bit past the expiration date for “boys will be boys.”
By no means. Henry Hyde had a an affair when he was 45. He tried to excuse it as a youthful indiscretion.
Yes, the Hyde of the Hyde Amendment.
peorgietirebiter
The question was a load as well, Tag (one of my favorite Lakers was named after an American watch) listened to his father being called misinformed and offensive, but never, the more accurate, liar. Nevertheless, I think Tag’s response showed the misdirected hostility that’s becoming an increasingly apparent trait in the family. I think the last debate specially revealed Mitt as the insufferable prick I’d suspected him to be.
Elly
Tagg Romney’s little outburst was really, really weird on multiple levels. It’s the sort of response that you’d give if you felt your parent was the helpless victim of some sort of flagrant injustice (like someone knocking down my 82 year old father and stealing his wallet). It’s an oddly emasculating thing to say about someone who’s completely capable – to the point of running for president.
It’s as if he has no confidence in the ability of his old man to take care of himself. And that’s not good, coming from someone who’s also a member of father’s campaign.
Spatula
This faux concern trolling about Tagg’s faux rage at PO is…stupid and embarrassing.
pk
I really think this is more a case of stupid people saying and getting away with anything. People say idiotic things all the time but most don’t have a national stage to make complete fools of themselves. People with money and power always get more leeway than anyone else. Black republicans like Herman Cain and Alan West constantly say the most awful things with no consequences. At this point in time in this country, it’s rich aggressive republican men who are call the shots. No democratic male, rich white or black would get away with it.
Omnes Omnibus
@Spatula: Whereas your comments are an incisive take on the issues of the day?
SFAW
@Spatula:
Concern trolling? Hardly. We just think it’s good humor that a
decorated war veteranpu$$y like Tagg wants to take a swing onhis former Commander-in-Chiefthe President for calling Mitt out for what he (Mitt) is – a liar.murakami
When watching the first debate, I had this overwhelming urge to hit Romney every time I saw his condescending smirk. But, if I ever found myself alone with Mitt, I probably would refrain. I’m sure it’s the same with Tagg and I don’t think his comment is a big deal. If you read his full statement, he actually goes on to say he wouldn’t actually hit the President; he was just angry seeing his father lose. Seems reasonable to me.
On top of that, I’m starting to move to the point where I give Ann and the offspring a complete pass. If you start to look at what the Romney home life was like, the dog on the car is just the tip of the iceberg. Mitt is an incredibly cruel and petty father.
The Moar You Know
@Cassidy: Between my dad being a pilot (never home) and my parent’s divorce when I was ten, I was essentially raised in a single parent home, by the parent who was from the “wrong side of the tracks”. She did a unbelievable job given the circumstances (two years of alimony and no child support) but like you there were some things I did that were just wrong, and I was also old enough to know better but had never been taught better. Most of my early adulthood was spent with very patient people who put up with me and gently steered me into responsible adulthood. A great deal of “unlearning” was and still is involved. I can’t seem to shake the gutter mouth but the rest of it is under control, at least to a level where I and everyone else in my life is no longer ashamed at my behavior, demeanor, or speech in public.
Unlearning those destructive behaviors – behaviors that tag you as being one of “the poors” among other things – is the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my life. I was lucky. Half my family was pretty well-off, even if I didn’t see them much, I could still learn from them. Poor people with poor parents don’t have a lot of chances to learn how to not act like poor people – which is one of the biggest factors in keeping them poor. If you don’t know how to tie a tie – and I was taught this by a female classmate in high school at age 17, not by either parent – then you’re not going to be wearing a suit, and that’s going to limit your job choices pretty severely.
The Bearded Blogger
@murakami: You gotta point there. It’s gotta be somethin’, having such a dick for a father.
SFAW
@Spatula:
And “faux” rage? Yahright. Those who think themselves entitled generally don’t like it too much when you take them (or their sugar daddy) to task. He may have tried to claim it was a joke ex post facto, but the Angel Moron knows the truth, and it ain’t Tagg’s version.
The Moar You Know
@murakami: I sat next to Karl Rove for three hours watching the “Book of Mormon” in New York. The thought of actually taking a pop at him never once crossed my mind, and wouldn’t have even if the show had been crappy. He really needs to learn to laugh more, though.
If you ever get the change, BTW, go see it.
The Bearded Blogger
@The Moar You Know: Rove looks like he has bad B.O. Confirm?
SFAW
@murakami:
Well, the first part is obvious, but not for the reason he means. Re: the second part: he was either angry, or he was making a joke; I’ve heard both “explanations.” If he really was angry, then he needs to grow the fuck up, because he’ll say the wrong thing (out of anger) to the wrong person one day, and that would be “problematic” for him. If he really “thought” it was a joke, then he needs to grow the fuck up, because a joke like that is not a joke, it’s just an expression of hostility, not unlike his father cutting that kid’s hair off in prep school.
Basically, he’s following in his father’s dickish footsteps. What a great guy.
quannlace
And don’t you just know that this is the same kind of ass, who when out to dinner with friends, thinks it’s fun or ‘clever’ to give the waiter a lot of grief.
Gex
@SFAW: May as well insult him by comparing him with lowly women. That will show them some manners and respect for others!
Gex
I have to say, I do enjoy seeing Tagg insulted by being called a pu$$y on a thread where we are discussing privilege and respect for others. /headdesk
ETA: Cue calls to “lighten up” and protests that “it’s just a joke”
Gibndy51
“he was just angry seeing his father lose. Seems reasonable to me.”
You do not get physical with the opposition because they beat your team. Think about it in terms of a sporting event. Do you see the people at baseball games running out on a field to beat the shit out of the opposing team? No, you do not. Why threaten to physically harm someone because they wiped the proverbial floor with your candidate/dad? Because you are an immature, little shit, just like the soccer fans who mob the field and beat the shit out of the opposing teams’ fans.
As for Ann, the red flags were there before she married him. Anyone who needs to be hospitalized because someone they dated is going out with other people has very deep seated issues. No one like this needs to be within ten miles of the launch codes (see Ann’s The View appearance this week).
She could have avoided this mess if she had never married him. No pass as she is exactly the same as he is, white, rich, privileged, and out of touch. The kids, maybe but not her.
Beatrice
I was surprised not to hear more discussion after the first debate about Romney’s remark that he knows about liars because he raised five sons. My father had five children too, and he didn’t raise a pack of liars.
karen marie
@Cermet: Oh, please. He was embarrassed and walked it back in the most minimal way possible.
Spatula
@SFAW:
Really? I wasn’t aware that Obama is a decorated war veteran either.
What’s with the military fetish posturing? Weird.
I never considered the retarded Bush boy my commander in chief, cause, you know…I’m not in the military. I’d guess Taggart likewise doesn’t consider PBO his CIC either.
Mnemosyne
@Quaker in a Basement:
“A Timex! A goddamned lousy twenty-two dollar Timex!”
Yep, that’s the one. The plot (such as it is) sucks, but the dialogue is hysterical.
“That’s the W.A.C.P.O.F.S.M.M.L.”
“The … ”
“Women Against Corporate Promotion of Female Self-Mutilation Marxist-Leninist.”
Cassidy
@The Moar You Know:
Yup. My wife is a Saint.
Twilight Jack
@The Other Bob: That’s pretty much what Lawrence O’Donnell did on his show the other night. I thought it was a bit overwrought and unhelpful, but YMMV.
karen marie
@Cassidy: You told that story because you’re a good person, and those kinds of things stay with you. I always used to tell my niece and nephew, “Be nice to people because being mean is with you for the rest of your life.”
Nina
Either Sasha or Malia could totally whup Tagg’s butt.
Cassidy
@Gex: Actually, I’m just going to say that when it’s guys talking about other guys, it really is hard to not use that kind of descripptive language. You’re spot on that it’s not right, and personally I’ve made an effor to not use that word in the past year, but it is learned behavior.
SFAW
@Gex:
What term would you find less problematic? Wimp? Candy-ass? Or none at all?
The p-word was what we used in my old neighborhood, also in college, I fall back on old habits.
In any event, I’m not sure how use of the p-word has anything to do with privilege or certain persons’ sense of entitlement, etc. I can sorta see your point about respect, but I guess I’m looking at it from a different viewpoint.
Carnacki
@The Other Bob: That’s great
Gex
@Cassidy: Boys will be boys!
@SFAW: The fact that the other words don’t adequately insult him is kind of the point, though, isn’t it? He could be called a coward or wimp or candy-ass. But none of that is sufficiently insulting. Not like being compared to a lowly woman.
SFAW
@Spatula:
Ah, willful stupidity rears it’s ugly head, yet again.
Nice attempt at misdirection, but Obama isn’t the issue; faux tough-guy Tagg is.
Military fetish posturing? You must be thinking of Bush.
Thanks for your concern, though.
Gex
Seriously, just admit that you don’t want to change how you insult people instead of trying to justify it. Back when some people were growing up, you just called an adult black man “boy.” Didn’t mean anything by it so why change now?
SFAW
@Gex:
Since you’re still being slightly abstruse (I guess), I’ll hazard a guess: it’s because the word used is a slang term for a part of female anatomy, similar to me calling someone the c-word, thus dehumanizing women further, etc.
If so: point taken. For what it’s worth: I rarely use the word, but sometimes it seems (to me) more apropos.
Yutsano
@Omnes Omnibus: Special Timmeh is never wrong. Why else would he lower himself to grace us with his presence other than to reveal DA TROOF!!
@Heliopause: Noted, your concern has been.
Heliopause
@Spatula:
I don’t think “concern trolling” is quite the right term. Bottom-of-the-barrel-scraping is more apt. A lengthy post deducing that an individual is a “bad parent” based on a single sentence uttered by his adult child? Doesn’t get much more desperate for content than that.
SFAW
@Gex:
One assumes you were attempting to be hyperbolic, in order to make a point.
Zapruder F. Mashtots, D.D.S. (Mumphrey, et al.)
@Jay in Oregon:
Yeah. Republicans today don’t understand that it’s what you do that means something, it isn’t what you say. That’s why they’re always upset about President Obama, or Democrats as a whole, not talking about American! Exceptionalism! enough. They really think that we’re in danger of losing our place in the world because the president doesn’t rub the world’s face in it about how Awesome! we are enough.
I always kind of thought that what you did, the way you lived your life, that was what you truly were; you know,by their deeds ye shall know them, and all that. Republicans think that what you tell everybody about yourself is what you truly are. It’s why we can torture people, and yet we aren’t a country that tortures people. We don’t do that, even if we do, but that doesn’t matter; we say we don’t torture, so we don’t, even if we do, and that’s all there is to it.
It’s why all those dickwad armchair warriors weren’t really loser, gutless dickwad chickenhawks back when the Iraq war was going strong. That’s unfair. They wanted to go. They really did, but they couldn’t. But woe betide the insurgents if they had, ’cause, damn, those were some tough-ass dudes. How do we know? They told us they were. And that’s really all the proof anybody needed. We were the asswipes for ever doubting their fearlessness and strength and fearsome killing instincts.
It’s also why, to bring up the latest asswipe, Dinesh D’Ouchebag is still totally a real, true Christian: Because he says he is! So what if he’s married, but sleeping with another married woman, he’s totally an awesome Christian! How do we know that? He says he is, q.e.d.
I wonder if that isn’t behind some of the Romneys’ resentment about how we Americans aren’t falling all over each other to kiss his sanctified ass and make him our president. He keeps telling us he’d be the most super-awesomest president EVAR, but we don’t believe him. What the fuck is wrong with us? He keeps telling us how great he is, but we want to know what he’d do. Silly us. All he has to do is tell the world how great he is, and the world will bow before him. Greatness is all in how great you say you are, not in what you do or how you live your life. That rich guy who couldn’t get into heaven? It wasn’t because he was a cheap bastard his whole life who fucked over everybody he ever met; it was because he didn’t tell Jesus how kind and loving and giving he was. Poor guy just didn’t know how ot worked.
It’s sad, but it’s true. That’s also why Taggywag is a super-awesome-total tough dude. He told us so. He would’ve totally torn out the president’s guts! Through his nose! That’s how tough he was. Only he couldn’t, since there were Secret Service guys around, and they wouldn’t have understood the righteousness of what ol’ Taggywag was doing, and he’s only human, he can’t take them all on at once. But Obama’s lucky as hell he had his posse with him, or he would’ve been in for a world o’ hurt. We know it’s true. Taggy told us it is. And that’s good enough for Republicans; it ought to be good enough for us, too.
Gex
@SFAW: So are we being dense and pretending that word is a comparison to a cat and not a woman when insulting a man? Okay, why not. Didn’t mean to get uppity. You don’t give a shit, and I don’t care if you do. It was just funny to me, the juxtaposition.
If you don’t care to realize WHY that word is more apropos, that’s fine.
Gex
@SFAW: Very astute of you. Don’t question how the word came into usage in that manner, then insist you aren’t responsible for the meaning that is relayed when you use it.
Anna in PDX
I agree with 48. What it would be like to live with a man like that? He’s a bully and he has a mean sense of humor and he can dish it out but not take it. Sounds like a great person to live with, not.
karen marie
@Heliopause: If you think criticism springing from Tagg’s stupid statement is based only on that statement, you clearly have not been paying attention.
jrosen
I was able to get through most of the debate only by fantasizing that somebody plastered a custard pie in the Romney (Joe Isuzu) face. But I’m white.
Marc
@Gex:
Do you really have nothing better to do?
Gex
I am just thankful I have such strong men to tell me why I am wrong about how I feel about such matters.
Heliopause
@karen marie:
Did you read the post? It is the only piece of evidence adduced to reach the conclusion.
Xecky Gilchrist
@Zapruder F. Mashtots, D.D.S. (Mumphrey, et al.): Yup. All of this is dead on.
The example I keep thinking of is Karen Hughes’ “listening tour” to the Middle East, which was supposed to be diplomacy but was really just telling people how awesome we were to be blowing up everything.
Gex
Fine. Uncle. The men are right. As always.
Omnes Omnibus
@Heliopause: You are right that the post does presume prior knowledge of other dickish behavior by Romney children. Given the existence of that other dickish behavior, I am not too worried about hypothesizing a beach from one grain of sand.
SFAW
@Gex:
Well, thanks so much for setting me straight.
Having mightily offended you, I feel honor-bound to go off and commit seppuku.
But before I go to meet my ancestors, a comment or two: you don’t know anything about me, other than I used the “p-word” (well, actually “pu$$y”) twice in one thread, and so that, to you, is a sufficient “tell”, apparently. Good for you. You have uncovered my terrible secret, that I am, in fact: a misogynist, a anti-black racist, an anti-Latino racist, an anti-Asian racist, an anti-Semite, a homophobe, a sexual predator, and I probably kick dogs and cats, as well. Especially cute little kittens.
I am just glad I didn’t use the expression “lipstick on a pig”, because then I would be calling all women pigs, no doubt. But does this mean I can no longer call Mitt a “prick” or a “dick”, as I have done frequently? Because, FSM knows, reducing poor Mittens to a derisive slang word for a part of male anatomy is RIGHT OUT.
I wasn’t going to say “lighten up” before, because you really hadn’t gone off the deep end about this. But, as you now have: lighten up, Francis.
The Moar You Know
@The Bearded Blogger: 100% untrue. I’m very sensitive to that.
Heliopause
@Omnes Omnibus:
Apparently I should deduce that your parents are idiots because they raised a child who thinks vague references to alleged evidence are a good substitute for argument.
Really, people, you can’t think of any other confounding variables for why someone might utter a sentence other than bad parenting? Granted, this post is mostly aimed at a smallish, like-minded audience so its manifest silliness won’t likely have much of an impact, but coming from someone who at least pretends to have academic standards it’s a bit disappointing, don’t you think?
Tom Levenson
@Heliopause: Reading comprehension is hard. I suggest you think on why I led with Tommy Thomson and finished by looking for Romney’s response to his son’s bad behavior.
Mine is a faith based on works, not grace.
g
Couple of comments – I think it’s a sign of a sense of entitlement for Tagg to feel it’d be his right to “take a swing” at the President, especially when the political discourse under discussion (callng each other liars) is something both sides are doing. Why does President Obama deserve a punch for calling Romney a liar if Romney’s calling Obama one, too?
Plus – I’m actually more disgusted by the radio talk-show host, who’s deliberately trying to play a “let’s you and him fight” kind of game. What kind of answer would you expect to get from someone, when put in that context?
Omnes Omnibus
@Heliopause: Quick to move to ad hom, aren’t you? As TL noted above, work on your reading comprehension.
Edited for spatial accuracy.
Cassidy
@Gex: Okay. If you want to be condescending, that’s your choice. Keep that up, let me know how that tone works for you. FWIW, I was stating that you were right and that, unfortunately, it’s learned behavior and very dificult to break. But you go ahead and keep lashing out. I’m sure that method has worked for you up to this point.
MikeBoyScout
BRAVO!
Just Some Fuckhead
Now you know why Romney had to hide his dog in a safe place on the top of the car. Those people are savages.
Ruckus
@Cassidy:
Just felt appropriate
It was. Because you learned from it. You made a mistake at a young age and you learned why it was wrong. That’s the best we can do as humans. When we make a mistake, we learn. If we don’t we aren’t worth spit.
Another Halocene Human
To point out the obvious, the phrase “black man” was not accidental. In America black men, specifically, enjoy the stereotype of being hyper-violent—one which regrettably spans the political spectrum. Michelle Obama is many things. “Black man” is not one of them.
That’s it. That’s why that taunt Michelle and try to say she’s unfeminine in whatever way (fat, emasculating, ugly, too muscular, etc). So that they can code her as a MAN and make her the ANGRY BLACK MAN that her husband refuses to be.
Wow. I didn’t get it, but now I do.
Maddow explaining WHY certain conspiracy theories are so appealing and some never get off the ground has been very instructive for me today. :)
BobS
Many years ago I worked EMS. Occasionally we were tasked with transporting drunks who’d gotten themselves beaten up, gotten into car accidents, or were just generally being assholes and were given the choice of hospital or jail by cops who were either hoping to avoid paperwork or didn’t want to saddle them with legal problems.
It wasn’t uncommon that some of these guys would ride uneventfully to the hospital alone in the back of the ambulance with my partner or I, yet when we’d arrive at the hospital, where an audience was present and there was no chance they’d have to follow through on their promises, they’d take offense at something we had said or done and start talking shit about how they were going to kick our asses.
Villago Delenda Est
@Mara Holbrook:
Not by GOP standards. After all, Henry Hyde’s adulterous affair that destroyed a woman’s family was just a “youthful indiscretion”, if you’ll recall.
muddy
@SFAW: I think the offense in calling a man or any coward in general a pussy is that it implies that women are cowards, not like brave men. It’s not the same as prick and dick, those are words of power, they are sticking right out there annoying people, having agency.
So calling a man a pussy is saying that women are less than – less brave, less willing to act, etc. I used to say, “that’s so gay” in jr. high. I have found other words that don’t have that negative connotation towards a group to use now.
It’s not rude because it’s naming a body part. It’s rude in that it means women are less than men and really, why should women get the blame for that asshole?
muddy
I’m in moderation and am not sure which rude word put me there. Or possibly it is some innocent word that I wouldn’t suspect, sigh.
Villago Delenda Est
@Heliopause:
You’re a real moron, did you know that?
Rmoney is a sack of shit. Every one of his worthless coward sons is a sack of shit. Defending these chickhawk fuckwads makes you a sack of shit.
Capiche?
Nunya
@Gex: Doesn’t the word derive from pusillanimous? Seems like it must given that they’re synonymous in this case.
Ash Can
Frankly, I don’t think Thompson handled his situation all that swell either. All he did was to have his campaign issue some mealy-mouthed blurb about having a talk with his son, and that his son was sorry. Fuck that. The son is thirty-fucking-eight years old. The only behind-the-scenes father-son talk should have been “Get your stupid ass out there in front of the cameras and make this right or you’ll be back working the McDonald’s drive-up window in Waupaca before you can say ‘you want fries with that?'” Period.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ash Can: Elroy, not Waupaca. Cranberry marsh country.
Patricia Kayden
As someone has already pointed out, didn’t Newt Gingrich call Romneybot a liar during a tv interview? Why didn’t Tagg talk about punching Newt back then? Why is he only angry at President Obama?
Omnes Omnibus
@Patricia Kayden: To be fair, iris more or less understood that everyone wants to punch Gingrich.
Cue Heliopause criticizing this comment for not citing sufficient evidence to support my assertion.
catclub
@Villago Delenda Est: Beatcha by 60 posts on that factoid. But your mind is in the right place. ;)
Heliopause
@Tom Levenson:
Oh, I quite grasped the delicious meat of your argument: Thompson managed to talk his son into a third person apology (so they say, anyway) for a controversial statement, and Romney’s son hasn’t yet issued a third person apology for a controversial comment, therefore Mitt Romney is a “bad parent”. Impeccable. Seems to have sunk in with your chorus, to wit:
@Villago Delenda Est:
Note the Levensonian leap of faith this child of obviously inferior parents (and thanks for making sure we all can see the logic of this conclusion) takes. Note that I am accused of defending the “sack of shit” Romneys. Even the lowest grade of, what did you call it, reading comprehension reveals that I haven’t even slightly defended them, rather, I have had a few words to say about the post at the top of the page. But I suppose if this individual issues a third person apology for vomiting all sorts of invective at me based on absolutely nothing we can retroactively declare this individual’s parents “good”. Me, I’m a forgiving sort, thanks to my parents.
Villago Delenda Est
@catclub:
Very good. Didn’t read through all the remaining comments to see if anyone had caught that, but happy that you did, because the hypocrisy is so blatant and obvious. IOKIYAR everywhere.
What is even more disgusting is that so many people buy into it.
Villago Delenda Est
@Heliopause:
All I need to know about the scum that are the Mittlets is that every last one of them supported the deserting coward’s excellent adventure in Mesopotamia, and not one of them volunteered to put their own precious asses on the line. No, that’s work for “the help.”
The parenting thing is a direct riff on Rmoney’s own rhetoric about single parents (and we know who the fuck he’s talking about here) raising violent children. Yet his son, the product of a happy wealthy Mormon family, is the one talking about punching Obama because Obama said the truth about his vile sire, that aforementioned vile sire is a liar.
You are still dogshit for missing that point and, in the process, defending the dogshit that is the Rmoney clan.
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est: But, but, but TL did not make everything explicit in his post. All readers come to blogs with no prior knowledge.
SFAW
@Omnes Omnibus:
Hi, I’m SFAW, and I’m a Clueless Bastard. Is this the Clueless Bastards Anonymous meeting?
Omnes Omnibus
@SFAW: Fuck if I know.
SFAW
@Omnes Omnibus:
Not the answer I expected, but it’ll do.
LT
“Tantrum”?!
Jeuss, there is too much delusion to work with there.
LT
THis is a very weak argument rom Coates. It boils down to “If Obama had done this…”
And? The RW would have freaked out. And?
That is very weak.
Tagg Romney was asked what it was like – how it *felt* – to be there and see his father called a liar. He described the very natural, very understandable emotional response most of us would have in that instance. *And immediately said* that of course you wouldn’t do that – it was what it felt like.
Jesus.
And people treating the secret service remark as anything more than the joke it was give their game away completely.
LT
To put it another way – what would have been an answer to that question – “What is it like for you to hear the president of the United States call your dad a liar?” – would have been okay?
If he has said, “Man, it’s really frustrating. You want to jump up and yell ‘Don’t call my dad a liar!'” would that have been okay to people objecting to his answer?
The answer, I think: No, that wouldn’t have been okay. There would be outrage at Tagg Romney’s arrogant white privilege thinking he could have yelled at the president. And lost, again, would have been one very simple fact: He didn’t fucking do any of these things. He described, on a radio show nobody ever fucking heard of, what it *felt like*.
We are now the Feeling and Though police. Yippee.
The Moar You Know
Somebody bring a bag of nails, a ladder, and a hammer over to Gex’s place, she’s having a hard time getting up on the cross by herself.
AHH onna Droid
@Spatula: Oooh, troll says, ‘Trolling, yer doin’ it rong.’
Film at 11.
The Moar You Know
@LT: argle bargle. Please go have intercourse with a rusted chainsaw.
LT
@The Moar You Know: Oh boy you win.
SFAW
@LT:
Yes. Similarly: “I was annoyed. I don’t like hearing anyone – even the President – calling my father a liar.”
Or: ” I thought it was ironic, since President Obama has been lying about X.”
Or: “Pissed me off. Oh wait, can you edit this on time delay?”
Or: “President Obama likes to think of himself as having some class. I thought it was kinda low-class to call my father a liar, though.”
Or: “I was hoping my father would return the favor, give him a taste of his own medicine.”
Or: “I thought he was a jerk. I once shot a man in Reno, just to see him die, after he said something like that.”
Or:
Or:
I could probably do this all night, but I have more work to do. Plus, I don’t want to rob you of the pleasure of coming up with your own non-threatening, non-violent retorts.
OK? See how easy it is? And I’m only a low-class piece-of-shit engineer. You know, those jerks who don’t know how to construct simple expository paragraphs, can’t talk to someone unless that person knows what the BSOD is, and so forth. A refined person of such high breeding and class as Tagg – and a businessman/jaaahb creator to boot (wait, which brother is Boot?) – should be able to figure something out.
SFAW
@SFAW:
Omnes –
I may have to withdraw (temporarily) from Clueless Bastards Anonymous, I think I found someone who needs it more than I.
Keep my seat warm, though, if you please.
LT
@SFAW: So you’re saying he should have done better? I agree with that.
SFAW
@LT:
No, I’m saying his response was unacceptable, and that an acceptable response was not so fucking difficult to come up with.
It’s like being frustrated, and then making a joke about a bomb when you’re waiting in the boarding line for your flight to LA. You give a 10-year-old a pass on that; a 42-year-old should get smacked down for being an (entitled) idiot.
LT
@SFAW:
No, it’s exactly NOT like that, and that what makes this whole thing so fucking ridiculous. What it was actually like:
You and everyone else on this fad tour of outrage are doing exactly this – adding your own fantasies to this – in myriad ways.
And the good response to that kid or adult is “I know how it feels. And good on ya for NOT DOING THAT.”
Pitchfork mobs for admitting feeling an emotion and NOT DOING SOMETHING RASH. Woo hoo for us!
SFAW
@LT:
Railing against Obama at home, to one’s lovely wife, is like the scenario you’re pushing above.
Railing against Obama to a radio guy, with a live mike, is like being in the flight boarding line, with a TSA officer or Air Marshal within earshot.
In your scenario, the only consequence is your wife saying “Now, Honey, I know you’re frustrated etc. etc.”
In the second scenario, THERE ARE ACTUAL CONSEQUENCES WHICH RESULT FROM UNACCEPTABLE ACTIONS. Fortunately for Tagg, saying he wanted to swing on the President is not a Federal offense, and so the only consequences that immature little shit has to pay is people saying he’s an immature little shit or some variation thereof.
Don’t get out much, do you?
FSM save me from the concern trolls.
LT
@SFAW:
That is just delusional.
LT
@SFAW:
That just funny.
SFAW
@LT:
That is just delusional.
You think so? Try it next time you’re waiting to get onto a flight where there are TSA officers or Air Marshals within earshot. A good choice of words might be something like “My friend here thought I was serious when I said I packed a bomb in my luggage. What a dummy!” or how about: “You guys ever get anyone making a joke about a bomb they packed into their suitcase?” Hilarity will ensue, no doubt.
Then get back to me after – or if – they release you.
ETA: Oh yeah, I realize you’re carrying water for Mitt and all that, but the old taking-a-sentence-out-of-its-context trick (since the next sentence ‘splained the meaning of the one you pulled out) is something you should leave to Mitt’s minions, Karl Rove, or others better at it than you.
LT
@SFAW:
Jesus fucking christ you are too much.
As slowly as cement:
• If what you say made any sense – why the fuck wasn’t Tagg Romney arrested? Is it because it’s actually nothing like making a bomb joke to the TSA guys in the airport?
• Your scenario with the bomb joke at the airport is equivalent to TAGG ROMNEY SAYING THAT AT THE DEBATE. NOT A DAY LATER ON A RADIO SHOW.
You have a fucking monkey’s dick for a brain. I hate you for even talking to me.
LT
@SFAW:
Oh my god that is so funny.
Hey – does the next sentence context thing work for Tagg Romney’s comments too?
No?
No?
#ActuallyRollingOnFloorLaughing
SFAW
@LT:
You should learn to read, shit-for-brains. And you should probably have someone explain the big words to you, because it’s all there. Shit, I even pointed out the context for you. I realize it’s convenient for you to play a fucking illiterate moron, but game time is over. Reading your tripe is like watching Wolf Blitzer kick ass on Jeopardy!
“Monkey’s dick for a brain”? Yeah, whatever. A line like that probably impresses the other 12-year-olds that you hang with.
Come back when you’re able to buy a quarter of a fucking clue, you imbecile.
SFAW
Oh, and while you’re off composing your next example of your blinding intellect, you should look up Gex. She probably hates my guts more than you. You two should be especially happy together.
central texas
Being a Romney and true son of his father, the only way he would take a swing at the President would be if there were four or five of his fellow warriors holding him. He has been taught by a bully to be a bully and is most unlikely to forget.
Chortles
@Jay in Oregon: One of the funnier examples I’ve seen of this in action was an episode of The Ultimate Fighter (Team GSP vs. Team Koscheck) when one of the fighters wasn’t held back at first, but TOOK THE LONG WAY to go up to the fighter that he was challenging out-of-competition… and it was even more absurd since an unsanctioned/unscheduled fight is an automatic booting from the show.
Thatgaljill
I live in an area where there a many people who have been quite “fortunate” (that’s how the acquisition of “new money” is described around here) and there is still some older money here and there as well. The people who “get it” may have help, or they may be like my husband and I working our butts off to give our son a well-rounded childhood, but their kids have jobs, or recognize their primary job is their school and community volunteer work, at which they put amazing efforts and hours into. Some of the kids you would most enjoy spending time with are those whose parents started as soon as they were on their own toddling feet making them look you in the eyes when they greeted you, shake hands, refer to you with respect, etc. They put up with ZERO crap and disrespect, nor are they helicopter parents. They are the parents (in addition to my own) try to model myself after. And *sigh* some of them will vote for Romney… but many will not.