Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Let’s finish the job.

Take your GOP plan out of the witness protection program.

Take hopelessness and turn it into resilience.

Why is it so hard for them to condemn hate?

So it was an October Surprise A Day, like an Advent calendar but for crime.

Wow, I can’t imagine what it was like to comment in morse code.

Republicans are the party of chaos and catastrophe.

That’s my take and I am available for criticism at this time.

Battle won, war still ongoing.

A last alliance of elves and men. also pet photos.

The poor and middle-class pay taxes, the rich pay accountants, the wealthy pay politicians.

I’d hate to be the candidate who lost to this guy.

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

You can’t love your country only when you win.

Let me eat cake. The rest of you could stand to lose some weight, frankly.

Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.

Come on, media. you have one job. start doing it.

I’m pretty sure there’s only one Jack Smith.

if you can’t see it, then you are useless in the fight to stop it.

Technically true, but collectively nonsense

A sufficient plurality of insane, greedy people can tank any democratic system ever devised, apparently.

They are lying in pursuit of an agenda.

I like you, you’re my kind of trouble.

Shallow, uninformed, and lacking identity

You are here: Home / Politics / Religion / Spanish is a loving tongue

Spanish is a loving tongue

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It’s official: there’s a new pope and he’s an Argentinian Jesuit.

He doesn’t sound so bad. Yeah, he hates teh ghey but he likes social justice and, ultimately, the enemy of Jackson Diehl is my friend.

I don’t know much about the church in Latin America, but am I wrong to think that a priest from there is generally less likely to be a dick than a pope from Germany or Poland?

Also too, glad it’s a Jesuit, since Frank Pendleton and my late grandfather all spoke highly of Jesuits. I wonder if this guy will teach the world how to pluralize words the way the Jesuits taught Jimmy McNulty?

Update. This sounds less than awesome (from 2005):

A human rights lawyer has filed a criminal complaint against an Argentine cardinal mentioned as a possible contender to become pope, accusing him of involvement in the 1976 kidnappings of two priests.

Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio’s spokesman Saturday called the allegation “old slander.”

Reader Interactions

148Comments

  1. 1.

    Sasha

    Pope hat trick: First pope from the Americas, first Jesuit pope, and first pope to be named after St. Francis of Assisi.

    If the cardinals wanted to begin charting a new direction for the Church, this seems to be the way to go.

  2. 2.

    Nemo_N

    I don’t know much about the church in Latin America, but am I wrong to think that a priest from there is generally less likely to be a dick than a pope from Germany or Poland?

    Argentinian dicks can be world class dicks.

    Or so they say.

  3. 3.

    BGinCHI

    A German gives way to an Argentine while all of Italy looks on.

    Sounds like the next World Cup.

  4. 4.

    Trollhattan

    Kind of like this NYT-ypo:

    Correction: March 13, 2013

    A photo caption and news alert misspelled part of the new pope’s name. He is Jorge Mario Bergoglio, not Jorge Maria Bergoglio.

    Maria
    I just met a pope
    Called Maria
    And suddenly….

  7. 7.

    drbloor

    Frankie thinks adoption by gay folks is a form of child abuse. “Social justice” my shiny white atheist ass.

  9. 9.

    ShadeTail

    I don’t know much about the church in Latin America, but am I wrong to think that a priest from there is generally less likely to be a dick than a pope from Germany or Poland?

    Probably. I’ve heard plenty of cases where, for example, the Latin American church prioritized fetuses over the raped girls who were carrying them. One case, where the girl was only 11 and got the abortion, ended with the church excommunicating her, her family, and the nuns who ran the hospital where it happened. And if they had the legal authority to go further, as back in the bad old days, you know they would have.

  11. 11.

    Ash Can

    Given how conservative a Jesuit he apparently is, I’m not holding my breath about seeing much fresh air being blown through the Vatican. I’m hopeful that he’ll be a step up from Ratzinger, though.

  12. 12.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @ DougJ: Are you regretting using “She’s Miss Buenes Aires” as a post title recently?

  13. 13.

    max

    He doesn’t sound so bad.

    I’m with you and Sasha. Beats the hell out of appointing a Rottweiler.

    A human rights lawyer has filed a criminal complaint against an Argentine cardinal mentioned as a possible contender to become pope, accusing him of involvement in the 1976 kidnappings of two priests.

    Quite a problem if true. Curious as to why that wouldn’t have blown up earlier.

    max
    [‘Still wished he’d picked Matthew.’]

  14. 14.

    nancydarling

    Doug J, Liberation theology was a big thing in Latin American priests a few decades ago, but the church really cracked down on them. Someone correct me if I’m wrong. Valdivia?

  15. 15.

    ColleenMary

    Choosing the name Francis is a good sign. Also he apparently really went after priests who were refusing to baptize children born out of wedlock, so he’s got a heart. Yes, he’s conservative, but this could have been so, so SO much worse

  16. 16.

    Leeds man

    “Update. This sounds less than awesome”

    On the other hand;

    Yorio accused Bergoglio of effectively handing them over to the death squads by declining to tell the regime that he endorsed their work. Jalics refused to discuss it after moving into seclusion in a German monastery.

    Both men were freed after Bergoglio took extraordinary, behind-the-scenes action to save them — including persuading dictator Jorge Videla’s family priest to call in sick so that he could say Mass in the junta leader’s home, where he privately appealed for mercy.

    Still, not exactly a shining example.

  17. 17.

    eemom

    I am experiencing another of my WTF planet am I on? days.

    The intense outpouring of interest from all directions? The feverish scanning for signs of…..”progress”?

    Holy fucking fuck, people, this is the Catholic Church we’re talking about. Exactly what kind of transformation were you expecting?

  18. 18.

    Pooh

    My catholic wife questions how good an Argentinian priest who rejects liberation theology can be.

  20. 20.

    nancydarling

    I wonder if he is an animal lover given his choice of names. Have there ever been any papal pets at the Vatican?

  21. 21.

    ColleenMary

    @nancydarling: Apparently he’s not one of the Jesuits who was a supporter of liberation theo (drat). I’ve read that he “distanced himself” from it early on. On the other hand, I also hear that he refused to live in the bishop’s palace in Buenos Aires and took the bus to work. Gotta love that!

  22. 22.

    hitchhiker

    Yawn.

    You say a bunch of old men got together and decided they’re still in charge of peoples’ souls?

    Whatev.

  23. 23.

    jamick6000

    http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/papabile-day-men-who-could-be-pope-13

    “We live in the most unequal part of the world, which has grown the most yet reduced misery the least,” Bergoglio said during a gathering of Latin American bishops in 2007. “The unjust distribution of goods persists, creating a situation of social sin that cries out to Heaven and limits the possibilities of a fuller life for so many of our brothers.”

    Bergoglio may be basically conservative on many issues, but he’s no defender of clerical privilege, or insensitive to pastoral realities. In September 2012, he delivered a blistering attack on priests who refuse to baptize children born out of wedlock, calling it a form of “rigorous and hypocritical neo-clericalism.”

    I like the name Francis.

  24. 24.

    Valdivia

    The Argentinian Church was certainly involved in the Proceso (the dirty war in the 70s). I have no idea if he was part of it but given his social justice views I wonder if he was.

    Love that its a Latino and seemingly from a completely different school of thought than Ratzi.

  26. 26.

    Gex

    Why is everyone’s first instinct to say, “Yeah he hates gays, but he believes in social justice” when those two things seem completely contradictory?

    That has been the most common refrain I’ve heard today. Murdering a guy or two hurts fewer people than a sustained war on gays.

    ETA: Likewise to make a big deal of how he lives is not much different than bitching about how Al Gore lives when we discuss climate science.

  28. 28.

    Sasha

    Via Sully:

    Bergoglio has supported the social justice ethos of Latin American Catholicism, including a robust defense of the poor. “We live in the most unequal part of the world, which has grown the most yet reduced misery the least,” Bergoglio said during a gathering of Latin American bishops in 2007. “The unjust distribution of goods persists, creating a situation of social sin that cries out to Heaven and limits the possibilities of a fuller life for so many of our brothers.”

    Suck on it Ayn Rand Catholics!

  29. 29.

    Eric S

    Per my local NPR (in Chicago) he’s the son of Italian immigrants. For whatever that’s worth.

  33. 33.

    handsmile

    @Trollhattan:

    There’s been a lot of stiff competition today, but you just might be taking the Intertubes home with you. That was genius!

  34. 34.

    Valdivia

    @nancydarling:

    Absolutely right. The very conservative Church in Argentina didn’t really took part as much as others. Unlike the Chilean church which fought tooth and nail against the dictatorship. Also– the thrill of Second Vatican Council only lasted until the dictators of the sixties and seventies squelched it in South America.

  35. 35.

    The Moar You Know

    am I wrong to think that a priest from there is generally less likely to be a dick than a pope from Germany or Poland?

    Yes, you’d be very wrong. The Catholic Church was involved heavily in Argentina’s “dirty war”, and frequently not on the side of the angels.

  37. 37.

    Mister Harvest

    Every So Slightly Less Regressive By Roman Catholic Standards, I Guess is an improvement. I guess.

  39. 39.

    jamick6000

    Hopefully he’ll be a centrist pope who will increase the retirement age for nuns.

  41. 41.

    Joey Maloney

    @ShadeTail:

    One case, where the girl was only 11 and got the abortion, ended with the church excommunicating her, her family, and the nuns who ran the hospital where it happened.

    But not her rapist. He repented, you see.

  43. 43.

    coriolisification

    Al Jazeera says he takes his name from Francis Xavier not Assisi. This might make sense since FX was a Jesuit

  46. 46.

    Sasha

    So is Paul Ryan going to become a sedevacantist now?

    During a 48-hour public servant strike in Buenos Aires, Argentina, Bergoglio observed the differences between, “poor people who are persecuted for demanding work, and rich people who are applauded for fleeing from justice”

  47. 47.

    Shortstop

    @Eric S: so is a large chunk of Argentina. A quarter of the population has Italian ancestry.

    It is rather awful to see people getting excited about his riding the bus and cooking his own food when he’s firmly anti-gay and anti-woman.

  48. 48.

    IowaOldLady

    Prediction: This guy will be just as misogynistic as the last 100 popes. He will also protect child rapists. He will talk a good game about social justice, but then some thought of sex in any form (even married priests) will cross his mind and that will take priority and monopolize any and all talk.

  51. 51.

    Chris

    I don’t know much about the church in Latin America, but am I wrong to think that a priest from there is generally less likely to be a dick than a pope from Germany or Poland?

    That really depends. It runs the spectrum from ultra-social-justice priests (the liberation theology types reviled by JP2 and B16) to people who were basically fascists (I remember a story about a bishop in Honduras who blessed the military regime’s tanks with holy water and responded to the reports that they were killing nuns by basically saying it was the bitches’ fault for being in the way in the first place).

    I just posted this in the last thread: one of my friends from undergrad who studied Latin America explained to me that the Church’s position in society, country by country, varies largely depending on what their relationship with the previous dictatorships was. In Argentina, the RCC has a cozy relationship with the junta, thus it wasn’t well remembered afterwards and Argentine society now is pretty liberal. In El Salvador on the other hand (think it was El Salvador), there was actually pushback against the regime on the part of Catholic clergy, as a result of which the Church is better remembered and society is more conservative.

  52. 52.

    Certified Mutant Enemy

    Being a Jesuit he’d likely be ultra-liberal or ultra conservative – being Carding and being an acceptable Pope to the current flock of Cardinals, he’s almost got to be the latter…

  53. 53.

    FairEconomist

    Well, if name choice is any indication of his goals (e.g. Pius would have indicated conservative, John Paul stay-the-course, Paul a slightly less doctrinaire bent), Francis suggests to me he’s in to clean up the money mess in the Vatican, which has been rumored as a reason Benedict resigned when he did.

  54. 54.

    dance around in your bones

    I.just.simply.do.not.give.a.shit.who.the.pope.is.

    signed, raised Episcopalian, now agnostic.

  55. 55.

    BGinCHI

    Dude is 76. I suppose he could be Pope for a long time, but it’s not like he’s a young free-thinker….

  56. 56.

    grape_crush

    @jamick6000: I like the name Francis.

    Can I be post number one that uses the phrase, “Lighten up, Francis”?

    Personally, I was hoping for something more topical, like ‘Pope Pedophilius.’

  59. 59.

    Mnemosyne

    @Gex:

    Why is everyone’s first instinct to say, “Yeah he hates gays, but he believes in social justice” when those two things seem completely contradictory?

    In Catholic Church terminology, “social justice” actually means economic justice, ie making society more equal in terms of rich vs. poor.

    So the good people are taking out of this is that at least he doesn’t believe in fucking over the poor while also hating gays and women, which is more than you can say about some of the cardinals here in the US.

  60. 60.

    scav

    It rather admittedly detailed and long involved examination of the differences between papal egg-shell and papal off-white. There are many interweb flash-mobs on similar paint-chip subjects.

  61. 61.

    Shortstop

    I AM kind of laughing that the guys I was sure would pick another Italian got the next best thing while throwing the bone to LA.

  62. 62.

    jonas

    @ColleenMary: Agreed. If you had to choose among the ultra-conservative, reactionary cardinals appointed in the last 30 years, this guy seems to be one of the least worst choices. We’ll see if he’s actually interested in bringing the church into the 21st century, or simply reinforcing the worst tendencies of the 12th.

  63. 63.

    Decrease Mather

    I went to a Jesuit all-boys high school, and based on that experience, I’m predicting the new Pope will smoke will delivering Mass and tell dirty jokes for the Homily.

  65. 65.

    catclub

    Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio’s spokesman Saturday called the allegation “old slander.”

    Which is a non-denial denial.

    Ratzinger said the same good sounding things about inequality as a bad thing, but the things he and all the other conservative Cardinals actually got upset about were things like improving the role of women in the church, or abortion.

  67. 67.

    Shortstop

    I was in Argentina in November and had a long and interesting conversation about Jesuits with some portenos. I regret that I did not know to ask about this guy.

  68. 68.

    PeorgieTirebiter

    @eemom: ” The intense outpouring of interest from all directions? The feverish scanning for signs of…..”progress”? ”
    Amazingly, I too had a few positve thoughts after hearing the news. It took a couple of beats before I thought of Dolan and his co-conspiritors before my thinking lined up with yours.
    Prison sentences, complete access to the files and billion dollar settlements might get my attention in earnest.

  69. 69.

    Jay C

    I don’t know much about the church in Latin America, but am I wrong to think that a priest from there is generally less likely to be a dick than a pope from Germany or Poland?

    Yes.

    Next question?

  70. 70.

    Sly

    I don’t know much about the church in Latin America, but am I wrong to think that a priest from there is generally less likely to be a dick than a pope from Germany or Poland?

    Yes. Yes you are.

  71. 71.

    FairEconomist

    @Shortstop:

    It is rather awful to see people getting excited about his riding the bus and cooking his own food when he’s firmly anti-gay and anti-woman.

    So were all the other candidates. It was basically in the job requirements for cardinal when JPII and Benedict were picking them. At least there’s probably *something* good about this guy.

    I’ll also point out that if he favors a more equitable distribution of wealth he’s very much at odds with the old Argentine Junta there so I really doubt he’s cozy with the Fascist types regardless of past collaborator behavior on the part of the Argentine Catholic Church.

  72. 72.

    Bob In Portland

    I know that the Vatican had “ratlines” to smuggle Nazi, Croat and Italian fascist war criminals into South America at the end of WWII. That doesn’t speak well of the Church in South America generally, and during the dirty war in Argentina in the 70s how individual clerics (including Francis) handled the generals’ disappearing thing would be enlightening, but that doesn’t necessarily make this guy a bad guy.

    I mean, our CIA imported the von Spakovskys to Huntsville with all the Nazi rocket scientists and their son turned out to be a dedicated public servant working on voting rights issues.

  73. 73.

    Bob In Portland

    I know that the Vatican had “ratlines” to smuggle Nazi, Croat and Italian fascist war criminals into South America at the end of WWII. That doesn’t speak well of the Church in South America generally, and during the dirty war in Argentina in the 70s how individual clerics (including Francis) handled the generals’ disappearing thing would be enlightening, but that doesn’t necessarily make this guy a bad guy.

    I mean, our CIA imported the von Spakovskys to Huntsville with all the Nazi rocket scientists and their son turned out to be a dedicated public servant working on voting rights issues.

  75. 75.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    @dance around in your bones: He’s about to be the leader of a rather large and influential organization. It’s about like why we care who the next Prime Minister of Great Britain is going to be.

  76. 76.

    Darkrose

    What I think is interesting is that they chose another really old guy. That, and the fact that he’s from the Global South but is ethnically Italian suggests “compromise condidate” to me.

    Also, this from the Guardian doesn’t sound good:

    What one did not hear from any senior member of the Argentine hierarchy was any expression of regret for the church’s collaboration and in these crimes. The extent of the church’s complicity in the dark deeds was excellently set out by Horacio Verbitsky, one of Argentina’s most notable journalists, in his book El Silencio (Silence). He recounts how the Argentine navy with the connivance of Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, now the Jesuit archbishop of Buenos Aires, hid from a visiting delegation of the Inter-American Human Rights Commission the dictatorship’s political prisoners. Bergoglio was hiding them in nothing less than his holiday home in an island called El Silencio in the River Plate.

  77. 77.

    Ben Franklin

    Hmmmm. The etymology of ‘Francis’ is “Frenchman”

    Go back to your quatrains.

  78. 78.

    Ben Franklin

    I’m willing to bet the black/white smoke has more to do with choosing a name, than it does the actual choice of which pedophile gets to wear the funny hat.

  79. 79.

    mai naem

    I saw a tweet that he has only one lung. I don’t think the combo of Buenos Aires, one lung and old age augurs for a long term pope. Just sayin’

    Also too, he doesn’t look like a Hollywood aging Nazi like Benedict. That’s a good thing for Paul Ryan.

  80. 80.

    Mnemosyne

    @catclub:

    The information that Leeds man posted above makes it sound as though it was a much more complicated situation than “he turned them over to the junta,” though, since he worked hard to get them released after their arrest and succeeded.

  82. 82.

    waratah

    Tamara on MSNBC said he had a lovely smile and a friendly voice.
    So there is that.
    Personality must mean something.

  83. 83.

    Darkrose

    @dance around in your bones: Raised Episcopalian, now agnostic, and I care very much who the new Pope is. If he says, “You know, we’re not into gay marriage, but we’re going to stop spending money to get all up in non-Catholics’ business,” I’d be thrilled. Since that’s unlikely, it means that whether I like it or not, the Catholic Church is desperately trying to get involved in my life, and I need to know what they’re up to.

  86. 86.

    hal

    I love tboggs twitter comment that is was the swimsuit portion of the competition that clinched his nomination. Also, as a gay man it warms my heart that my relegation to second class Citizenship is a worthy trade off because the new Pope rides the fucking bus.

  87. 87.

    Sasha

    @El Caganer:
    Since he also has stated that not only do terrorism, repression and murder violate human rights, but also extreme poverty and the “unjust economic structures that give rise to great inequalities”, its safe to assume he’s not particularly in favor of it.

  90. 90.

    parsimon

    56: @Mnemosyne: So the good people are taking out of this is that at least he doesn’t believe in fucking over the poor[,] while also hating gays and women, which is more than you can say about some of the cardinals here in the US

    Yes, that’s my sense as well. The hating the gays and women is most definitely not good. It’s up to the spectator to decide whether the not fucking over the poor is good enough.

  91. 91.

    mikeyes

    @Certified Mutant Enemy: “Being a Jesuit he’d likely be ultra-liberal or ultra conservative”

    I’m not sure what that means, these are Jesuits, after all.

    I was taught by Jesuits from grade school (with nuns, of course, Gesu)through college and found them all to be thoughtful if opinionated at times. The priest I thought was the most “conservative” (a term that has a different meaning in the church than it does in the body politic) offered a reasoned argument for contraception and abortion to save the life of the mother. I don’t think that all Jesuits fit an easy to define category.

    Becoming a Jesuit requires 16 years of study and a step by step process of entering the order. Not everyone makes it, but almost everyone has at least one doctorate, usually the equivalent of two by the time they finish.

    They are masters of critical thinking, a product of over 400 years of Ratio Studiorum, and the word “jesuitical” implies clever and sneaky ways to get around a problem which is probably what this church needs these days. Popes have condemned the order (Banned for 75 years except in Poland where the banns were not read.) because they held the pope’s feet to the fire on certain issues. BTW, now we have a true “Black Pope” (you Jesuit grads will get that one.)

    Maybe we need to see what he does before condemning him.

  92. 92.

    catclub

    @Mnemosyne: I posted on the other thread “he was notably silent about human rights violations by the Junta.”

    and the Leeds man info indicates that many of those who were disappeared by the junta were catholic low level workers.
    One would hope the Catholic hierarchy would stand up at least for them. But they might have been too influenced by evil liberation theology.

  93. 93.

    some guy

    A guy who aided and abetted the junta during the Dirty War, including hiding political prisoners from UN Human Rights investigators at his own home?

    what’s not to like?

  95. 95.

    Heliopause

    am I wrong to think that a priest from there is generally less likely to be a dick than a pope from Germany or Poland?

    Even if they granted full equality to women and gays tomorrow the enterprise would still be premised on extorting money through existential terror from people who can hardly afford it, using some portion of it to bankroll lavish spectacles like the one we just witnessed. Think about it in the same way you might think about the USA; the most violent, militarized police state in the world has a friendlier face when a Democrat is President but is still the most violent, militarized police state in the world.

  98. 98.

    ? Martin

    @Mnemosyne: As FDR said “I did not choose the tools with which I must work”.

    In a nation with death squads, you have limited options. Actions happen quickly and by people that carry great power but limited independence. You cannot reason with the men rounding people up – their job above all others is to not be reasoned with. You work from that point onward with the people that make such decisions.

    I agree it impossible to read anything into that event. My dad has a lot of Argentinan friends and has been there several times. The death squads were horrible. People were powerless to stop bad things from happening – even the church.

    His more recent statements are more telling, but I don’t see them terribly damning either. It’s not like he’s espousing a position the church hasn’t reliably held for centuries. There are parts of the Catholic Church that can be changed, and those that can’t. See what he does around the parts that can be changed before look for him to move the parts that cannot.

  99. 99.

    max

    @Mnemosyne: So the good people are taking out of this is that at least he doesn’t believe in fucking over the poor while also hating gays and women, which is more than you can say about some of the cardinals here in the US.

    I was figuring, from the tea leaves, that it was going to be a choice between the HSBC Pope Santorum (Dolan, maybe?) or Pope Il Duce.

    So this sounds better, given that I saw Benedict as more conservative that JP II, which would imply, if we followed that line, that this one would be more conservative.

    Opting to name yourself after Francis of Assisi is at least a helpful gesture. (One of the two choices above would’ve given us another Pius. Yuck.)

    We’ll see if he actually a horror, or if he’s more moderate/liberal than his reputation.

    And, since he’s old, he’s not forever, so a Souther American pope might open the door to other third-worlders who might hopefully be more liberal. Or more economically liberal at any rate.

    max
    [‘Obama, it seems, is really really dedicated to chained CPI – an example of ‘who can tell?”]

  100. 100.

    Odie Hugh Manatee

    Get back to me when the new pope exposes every single pedo priest, kicks them to the curb and sincerely works to right the wrongs and wronged.

    Otherwise it’s nothing more than another chapter in the horror story that is the Catholic church.

  102. 102.

    srv

    IMO, RC Church focus here is to address the spread of the evangelicals into South & Latin America. But he’s too old to really turn that tide. They really needed someone dynamic for that battle, which I gather that Brazilian would have been a better fit.

    For all the hate of JPII, he had a lot more to do with the end of the Cold War than St. Ronnie did. It would have been better for him to croak in 91, rather than hang on so long and stack the deck with so many conservatives.

  103. 103.

    MikeJ

    @? Martin:

    It’s not like he’s espousing a position the church hasn’t reliably held for centuries. There are parts of the Catholic Church that can be changed, and those that can’t.

    They didn’t pardon Galileo until recently. They’re not going to publicly start doing everything right for a long, long time if ever.

    The best that can be hoped for is that, like Galileo, they just stop talking about it (for many values of “it”).

  104. 104.

    Roger Moore

    @BGinCHI:

    A German gives way to an Argentine while all of Italy looks on.

    Sounds like the next World Cup.

    Except that Germany has not been giving way to Argentina in the past couple of World Cups. One of the Professors in my department is German and his wife is Argentinian, so he’s wound up sleeping on the couch a fair bit around World Cup time.

  105. 105.

    Higgs Boson's Mate

    Francis I’s focus will be on restoring the flow of holy vigorish to its proper channels. Anyone who was interested in bringing the church into the current century wasn’t in the conclave.

    Call me when they elect Pope Frances I.

  106. 106.

    Valdivia

    Erick son of Erick and other conservatives take to twitter to cheer this Pope based on the accusations that Fracis helped the Junta. Do these people have no sense of shame? Cheering such a thing? Do they even have any idea of what El Proceso entailed? What idiots!

    I have no idea if he did or not these things. The link to Verbitsky makes it seem like he was in the thick of it but better information will come out in the next few days. I’d like to hear from those who have read the reports on Human Rights that name names.

  108. 108.

    scav

    To a certain extent, by choosing a semiunexpected, “controversial” and news-wothy pope — in fact having to choose a pope at all — drives the other Catholic hierachy news dpwn the page for a bit. For a ratings boost, it’s right up there as a manouver. Financial shenanigans? Payouts in CA and doc dumps in IL? But look at all the umbrellas in the rain, we are popular and beloved! And we have guards and bands with funny uniforms!

  109. 109.

    Sasha

    From WP:

    Like other Jesuit intellectuals, Bergoglio has focused on social outreach. Catholics are still buzzing over his speech last year accusing fellow church officials of hypocrisy for forgetting that Jesus Christ bathed lepers and ate with prostitutes.

    “In our ecclesiastical region there are priests who don’t baptize the children of single mothers because they weren’t conceived in the sanctity of marriage,” Bergoglio told his priests. “These are today’s hypocrites. Those who clericalize the Church. Those who separate the people of God from salvation. And this poor girl who, rather than returning the child to sender, had the courage to carry it into the world, must wander from parish to parish so that it’s baptized!”

    Bergoglio compared this concept of Catholicism to the Pharisees of Christ’s time: people who congratulate themselves while condemning others.

    “Jesus teaches us another way: Go out. Go out and share your testimony, go out and interact with your brothers, go out and share, go out and ask. Become the Word in body as well as spirit,” Bergoglio said.

  110. 110.

    Chris

    @srv:

    I give JP2 props for supporting anti-communist causes in Eastern Europe. It just would’ve been nice if he’d shown the same commitment to victims of fascist regimes in Central America.

    You don’t get to play realpolitik and then claim that you’re a source of absolute and uncompromisable moral values. If tyranny and torture are sins when the communists do it, they’re also sins when regimes that claim the “Catholic” label do it.

    ETA: and as for the spread of evangelicalism in Latin America, I kind of think that ship has sailed. People have flocked to American-based Protestant churches precisely because the RCC did such a poor job of sticking up for its congregations.

  111. 111.

    cokane

    makes sense the first latin american pope would be from buenos aires, the most european new world city by a long shot

  113. 113.

    Mnemosyne

    @parsimon:

    Yes, that’s my sense as well. The hating the gays and women is most definitely not good. It’s up to the spectator to decide whether the not fucking over the poor is good enough.

    Yep, and obviously people need to decide for themselves where the line is drawn. I just wanted to make it clear that “social justice” in RCC terms is not the same thing as “social justice” as we talk about it in American society — it very specifically means economic justice and has very little to do with what we normally think of as “social justice.” I wanted to make sure there wasn’t any confusion since the same term is used for two totally different concepts.

  114. 114.

    Chris

    @Mnemosyne:

    I always thought “social justice” in American society also referred primarily to economic justice. When it’s strictly identity-based issues (ethnic minorities’ rights, immigrants’ rights, women’s rights, gay rights), we call it “civil rights.” At least that’s how I’ve always heard it.

  115. 115.

    gogol's wife

    @eemom:

    It’s like the people who thought Medvedev was going to lead Russia in a liberal direction, and had the power to do so.

  116. 116.

    gocart mozart

    @grape_crush:
    Heh

    gocart mozart said,
    March 13, 2013 at 21:29
    I predict an uptick in the use of the phrase “Lighten up Francis.”

    Posted at SadlyNo! an hour ago

  117. 117.

    Mnemosyne

    @catclub:

    and the Leeds man info indicates that many of those who were disappeared by the junta were catholic low level workers.

    Given that the vast majority of the population of Argentina was Catholic, that’s like being shocked that most of the people Stalin murdered were citizens of the Soviet Union. Unless you mean that many of them were people who worked for the Catholic Church at a low level — I can’t quite tell from your sentence structure.

  119. 119.

    Librarian

    @gogol’s wife: And it’s just like when Andropov was made Soviet leader and the media was saying that he was a jazz fan and a whiskey drinker and so that meant he might be some kind of “liberal”. The media are always such gullible bastards in times like this.

  120. 120.

    Mike G

    A human rights lawyer has filed a criminal complaint against an Argentine cardinal mentioned as a possible contender to become pope, accusing him of involvement in the 1976 kidnappings of two priests.

    Adios, Pope Hitler Youth.
    Say hello to Pope Dirty War.

  121. 121.

    gogol's wife

    I love the way people are upholding the honor of Frank Pembleton here! I thought I was the only one who remembered that show.

  122. 122.

    Chris

    @srv:

    Not sure. In Latin America I can see at least some of them adopting an anti-establishment stance as long as the establishment remains as tied to the RCC as it currently is, especially if the RCC puts pressure on the local elites to put pressure on their Prod competitors. That could include pushing for more social justice, especially if that keeps the converts coming.

  123. 123.

    LanceThruster

    It’s always nice to get the ‘truth’ dispensed by the pope’s spokeshole.

  126. 126.

    Mnemosyne

    @gogol’s wife:

    “You know how there are three kinds of Jews, Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform? Well, there are two kinds of Catholics: devout and fallen.”

    And I probably haven’t seen that episode in 15 years. Still one of the all-time greatest TV shows.

  128. 128.

    dance around in your bones

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    He’s about to be the leader of a rather large and influential organization. It’s about like why we care who the next Prime Minister of Great Britain is going to be.

    I understand that. I still don’t give a shit.

    @Darkrose – I can totally understand that position and empathize.

  131. 131.

    aimai

    @? Martin:

    “People were powerless to stop the death squads?” Sure. But what does that have to do with a Priest who professes belief in an afterlife who isn’t willing to risk death on behalf of the dissapeared/tortured and in one notable case a kidnapped, murdered, pregnant woman whose child was stolen and given to “important people”. A guy like that has a lot to be humble about. I’m sickened by the entire shadow puppet play. The church will continue to comfort the comfortable and afflict the afflicted, to treat women and their children as pawns and to siphon money from the faithful and use it for the church hierarchy while going bankrupt anywhere they can be forced to pay for their crimes. This guy has already shown us how he will operate in a corrupt society: he will stand up for some, occasionally, while yielding to force majeure and protecting others because of some notion of greater good or self preservation.

  132. 132.

    Chris

    @Librarian:

    I thought Andropov WAS a “liberal” (I prefer “reformist”) within the Soviet context. If I recall Soviet history correctly, he was the original one who, like Gorbachev, saw that the regime couldn’t continue the way it had and that something had to give. He died before anything substantive could happen, and was replaced for Cheryenko for about a year, but then Gorbachev (who’d been one of his proteges) picked up where he left off and the rest is history.

    As with the new Pope, you’ve got to see all that in context – of course Andropov, like Francis I, isn’t a “liberal” by our standards. But then neither was Gorby. They were trying to save the Soviet system, not destroy it; I suspect what they were hoping for would’ve looked a lot more like modern-day China than like the West. But they were still a big improvement over the rigid conservatism of Brezhnev and his groupies, which is what I think we’re all hoping for from Francis I.

  133. 133.

    PurpleGirl

    @FairEconomist:

    …Francis suggests to me he’s in to clean up the money mess in the Vatican, which has been rumored as a reason Benedict resigned when he did.

    This makes sense. He probably won’t be Pope long at his age, and the money mess is probably going to take priority for getting cleaned up.

  135. 135.

    Chris

    @aimai:

    Yeah, I agree with this. Oscar Romero had the balls to stand up and speak the truth not only about economic injustice but about the regime that reinforced it and the brutal methods it used against anyone who objected to it (took some time for him to get to that point, but he did). It would’ve been nice of Bergoglio to have done the same, and with respect, we kind of expect that sort of leadership from religious leaders who preach absolute morals: it’s why Gandhi, MLK and Desmond Tutu are held in such high respect these days (to say nothing of Jesus himself), because they stood up for what they believed in, let the chips fall where they may.

  136. 136.

    Mnemosyne

    @Chris:

    I always thought “social justice” in American society also referred primarily to economic justice. When it’s strictly identity-based issues (ethnic minorities’ rights, immigrants’ rights, women’s rights, gay rights), we call it “civil rights.” At least that’s how I’ve always heard it.

    The two tend to be conflated here, which is why you have people saying, “How can he claim to be in favor of social justice when he’s anti-gay and anti-woman?!” It’s because he’s using a very narrow and specific definition of social justice that does not necessarily include civil rights, but a lot of us Americans include civil rights in our definition of social justice.

  137. 137.

    Ridnik Chrome

    @Librarian: According to what I’ve read, Andropov actually did intend to institute some kind of reform program, only he died before it could really get started. He was only in power for about a year and a half, don’t forget. And Gorbachev was his protege, too…

  139. 139.

    shortstop

    @dance around in your bones: Are any of the grandkids you’re always telling us about (that’s not a slam — I like hearing about them) female? Think the RCC getting all up in their business (and successfully pressuring politicians who’ll join them) about contraception and abortion might affect them? What about their girlfriends or wives, if they’re male? What about if one of those kids is gay? What if one of them (or you) ends up in a Catholic healthcare setting in which their advance directives are ignored? What if…well, you get the picture.

  140. 140.

    Bitter and Deluded Lurker

    @Ridnik Chrome: Andropov had also argued for the sending tanks into Prague in 1968, for the invasion of Afghanistan in 1979 and for the use of psychiatric hospitals against dissidents. While he did fight against invading Poland during the Solidarity movement and he did promote Gorbachev and others, I’m not sure how “liberal” his reforms would have turned out had he survived a few more years.

  141. 141.

    dance around in your bones

    @shortstop:

    No, they are all little boys. And I understand the pressure that the Catholic church can have on our lives (being such a big organization and all) but somehow I find it very easy to ignore them (except for getting totally pissed off and angry about they have dealt with the child-abusing priests) so I just don’t give a shit about the pope.

    Now, I have had my own issues with ‘spiritual leaders’ who cut me off from friends and family, so I know how powerful these influences can be. I do not discount the influence of the Catholic church. But I still don’t care a whit about the “new pope” and why we all spend so much time on it. YMMV.

    ETA: Also – I have always been fairly conscientious about educating my kids in the sexytime area – I gave my daughter “Our Bodies, Ourselves” when she was 14 – so i figure I have that covered somewhat. Maybe I’m living in Dreamland, but – I try.

  142. 142.

    Trollhattan

    @gogol’s wife:

    “Pembleton in the box” provided some of teevee’s best moments. Full stop. As great as The Wire was, I don’t know that it ever topped certain scenes from “Homicide.”

  143. 143.

    Ridnik Chrome

    @Bitter and Deluded Lurker: See what Chris said at 132. Andropov was no liberal by American standards (he was the former head of the KGB, FFS!), but at least he understood and acknowledged that things had to change. You gotta start somewhere…

  144. 144.

    Valdivia

    There is an interesting question why the lower level clergy in the Church in Argentina did not do as much as they could to help those hunted by El Proceso, let alone confront the regime. The contrast with Chile (and partly Brazil) is really quite stunning. If I remember correctly liberation theology had taken hold in Chile in the lower orders in a way that didn’t happen in Argentina.

    And also–Argentina had never really had more than a very short period of out and out democratic engagement, which Chile had since the 1920’s and civic engagement included the Church. During the Peron period (before his exile) the Church didn’t take kindly to what they saw as his effort to diminish their power. I may be misremembering that there was an expulsion of some priests which brought the Church to the fore as the foremost enemy of Peron. Even after his return and before he died when Peronismo was in its right wing incarnation and Isabelita (his wife) was ruling preceding the military coup the Church didn’t want anything to do with them, in spite of having seemingly identical goals.

    Though it’s not about Argentina, this documentary about Chile and the judicial system there might give an idea of how the Church operated during those years in Argentina, as an abettor and promoter, and in the best of cases when not fully collaborating (not much of an excuse I know) blindly ignoring what was happening. I really recommend it, chilling to watch.

  145. 145.

    kerFuFFler

    @Valdivia: “Love that its a Latino…”

    Hmmm, I guess he grew up in Argentina, but his parents were both Italian immigrants. It seems like the Vatican just found away to finally have another “Italian” Pope while making it seem like they are open to a “non-european” for that high office. BTW, I grew up in Mexico after my parents moved there, but it would be reprehensible for me to try to seek any benefits set aside to encourage Latinas in American society. I don’t see the new pope as much more Latino than I am Latina.

  146. 146.

    DPS

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: you can’t make an omelette without handing some liberal eggs over to a rightwing death squad.

  147. 147.

    Valdivia

    @kerFuFFler:

    I agree it was quite a hat trick they pulled.

    But also: by that definition a lot of Argentinians are not to be considered latino as they are sons of immigrants. Pretty much a whole generation in Argentina are first born there after their parents immigrated. I think having been born there and raised there gives him that right no?

    By this definition also my parents wouldn’t be considered latino since their parents were immigrants.

  148. 148.

    Robert Waldmann

    I’m sure this is mentioned up thread but the Argentine church is very different from other Latin American churches (especially the Brazilian church). Francis I’s defence is that he argued against killing those two priests. This is from the AP not from The Onion.

    A priest accused of torturing and murdering political prisoners was “spirited” out of the country by the Argentine church. He was extradicted and convicted to life in prison. He has not been defrocked. He still celebrates mass. I quote The New York Times http://nyti.ms/XKefZX (not atheist underground or something).

    The news from around here (I live in Rome) is not good.

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