I would wager that this new feature on the White House site, which is going to have a few minutes of Joe Biden telling the story behind the stuff he did that week, is going to be pretty damn interesting if they let Biden go off script.
Being Biden
by @heymistermix.com| 115 Comments
This post is in: Excellent Links
Cluttered Mind
I wasn’t aware it was possible to prohibit Joe Biden from going off script. It’s why I like him, you never have to worry that he’s BSing you, the man always says what he believes.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
Even when Biden’s “on script”, he’s off.
Love the guy.
TaMara (BHF)
Ahem: Being Biden
Just a day late there <3
Roger Moore
@Cluttered Mind:
Maybe you can’t stop him, but you can edit those parts out before they make it to publication.
dmsilev
Please, please, please tell me this is being narrated by Onion Joe Biden.
NotMax
@Cluttered Mind
Even when he’s plagiarizing others’ words.
Zifnab
@Roger Moore: Pff. Only if you don’t want to have any fun.
“So I took the Prime Minster down to Randy Andy’s for shots. That man tells the greatest fart jokes. What? Yes, I’m fully aware the camera is still on.”
Lee
Prominent Republican switches stance on gay marriage when son comes out
This is my surprised face
/sarcasm off
Cacti
O/T
The Vatican is starting the
whitewashpush back campaign against the allegations that the new 80-year old virgin was in cahoots with the Argentine Junta.“No credible accusation has ever stuck,” and the “anti-clerical left wing” is out to get Frankie.
The denials have an awfully familiar ring to them.
Roger Moore
@Lee:
It’s all over but the shouting. The haters are just delaying the inevitable now.
Violet
@Lee: Lack of empathy is the defining characteristic of Republicans. Until and unless something affects them personally, they will not change their minds about something. Gay son or daughter? Gay marriage for everyone!
I cannot express the loathing I have for these people. It’s All.About.Them.All.The.Time. Zero empathy.
lol
@Lee:
Reminds me of that Republican congressman who came out for prison reform… after he spent a couple years in prison. It’s always “What’s in it for me?” with these people. Utterly incapable of empathy.
gene108
@Lee:
I want to punch Portman in the nuts for switching.
He’s all happy and content to dick over other people’s happiness, but when the shit hit home (his son comes out of the closet), he decides his happy home can’t be screwed up he changes his mind.
This all about the Portmans and their domestic bliss.
He’s still an uncaring jack-ass on damn near everything that doesn’t personally affect him, like all other conservatives.
Mnemosyne
@gene108:
That’s the thing that bugs me when most conservatives do something like this — they change their mind about the one thing that personally affects them, but cling stubbornly to all of their other beliefs.
I don’t mind if something like this becomes a watershed that makes someone question all of their conservative beliefs (like Schiavo was for Cole or Pam Geller was for Charles Johnson), but if it’s just the one change, it’s annoying as hell.
Suffern ACE
@Lee: Sent the boy to Yale and look what happens.
Roger Moore
@Violet:
Sure, but compare Portman’s position with Dick Cheney’s. Portman sounds as if he’s actually coming out in favor of marriage equality, while Cheney hasn’t managed to move beyond making it a state issue. I don’t think that necessarily says anything about Portman vs. Cheney, but I do think it shows how fast the issue is moving.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Roger Moore:
@gene108:
The real difference between Portman and most of the US population is his position as Congressman. Most people don’t change their positions on something like this until their beliefs are challenged.
This is why the really radical Republicans have fought against gays coming out and minorities and women being in positions of power. When people start accepting it, then the idea that you vote for someone just because he’s white and male goes out the window.
Waynski
OT – But didn’t anyone else see David f*cking Remnick on Morning Fuck the Poor agreeing with Joe Scar on
Grand BargainGranny Starvingentitlementearned benefit cuts? Really? The editor of The New Yorker kissing Joe Scars ass? Really? I’m cancelling our subscription.Violet
@Roger Moore: I agree the issue is moving fairly quickly. But show me the staunch conservative Republican who changes his mind on gay marriage without having a family member who is gay. Especially a child who comes out as gay.
I’m glad wingnut representatives are recognizing that everyone deserves the right to marry, so I’m not upset that things are moving forward. But their lack of empathy on every fucking thing is not only infuriating, it’s incredibly destructive. Just once, can’t one of them change their minds just because it’s the right thing to do? No, because then they wouldn’t be a Republican.
Chris
@Violet:
Oh, I think there’s plenty of Staunch Conservative Republicans who have never and will never changed their minds even with a family member coming out. What’s the approval ratings for gay marriage? Most of the 27%ers are still firmly embedded in homophobic territory.
Roger Moore
@Violet:
I recognize that lack of empathy is one of the defining characteristics of conservatives; if they don’t know somebody who’s affected by a problem, they just don’t care about it. OTOH, I think this points out a way forward on a lot of social issues like marriage equality: we have to make sure that the issue is personally relevant to as many conservatives as possible. I fully expect that enough conservatives will eventually have a relative or close friend who’s gay and wants to get married to undermine opposition to marriage equality. And I expect that Loving v. Virginia will be the long-term death of racism, since just about everyone will have relatives who are multi-racial. We just need to figure out how to create that kind of widespread awareness of other social (and hopefully economic) issues.
TriassicSands
How do I set up a foolproof block on the Biden Show at the White House? I want to make sure I’m never inadvertently exposed to Joe Biden telling us what he “literally” did this past week.
Amir Khalid
@Chris:
Aren’t there Republicans, including those in elected office, who might disown a child who came out rather than change position on gay rights? I suspect there are.
lol
@Amir Khalid:
I think there’s a couple tea party wingnuts in the House who disowned their kids for coming out. I might be confusing them with state level ones though.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Amir Khalid: He’s never been elected to anything, but Alan Keyes disowned his gay daughter
Violet
@Roger Moore: I’m all for making Republicans poor. Especially the currently rich ones who are now funding most of the GOP SuperPACs. Let them be poor so they can finally empathize with people who need some financial assistance.
Hill Dweller
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
He beat her to the punch.
ruemara
As a guv media person, I can wholeheartedly say you can’t get these guys to stay on script. Besides, Biden is delightful either way. OT, I see the latest controversy on the left is that OFA is fundraising with BO ahead of midterms. Do people want to win elections or are we just going to convince voters with our metaphysical purity?
jl
Excuse me, that should be ‘Old Handsome Joe Biden’, IIRC.
White House Addresses Nation’s Critical Shortage Of Biden
http://wonkette.com/506378/white-house-addresses-nations-critical-shortage-of-biden
Need to start a petition at the WH site for Handome Ol’ Joe giving his thoughts on the sexytime intro Dr. Jill gave for him during the campaign.
And something on muscle cars, cameros, or trans ams, or corvettes, or chevy pickups or whatever the heck jalopy it is that he likes. Especially washing them in the WH driveway.
Roger Moore
@Hill Dweller:
Sorry, but when I hear that when talking about a wingnut, I immediately assume that we’re talking about opposition to VAWA.
jl
@ruemara:
” I see the latest controversy on the left is that OFA is fundraising with BO ahead of midterms. Do people want to win elections or are we just going to convince voters with our metaphysical purity? ”
Is there a link for that? I am curious about who would complain about fundraising for the midterms. Seems like last chance to improve prospects of good government during Obama administration.
greennotGreen
While I agree that in general Republicans are lacking in empathy, I think some of what changes people’s minds about gay issues when someone they know comes out is the realization that members of the demonized group actually aren’t demons. It’s much easier to see a group as weird and other when you don’t know anyone in that group.
On the other hand, I actually know some Republicans. Most are uninformed and happy, maybe even desperate, to stay that way.
Cris (without an H)
I would wager that the Joe Biden video feature is going to be closely followed by wingnuts bobbing for “gaffes.”
Maude
McConnell is vowing to repeal Obamacare.
shortstop
Public opinion on marriage equality has been changing so quickly that some of us, including me, have gotten a little complacent. Here in Illinois, where the marriage equality bill has passed the senate and house exec committee, the Dems hold a 71-47 majority in the house — the last step to getting this law enacted, since Governor Quinn is 100 percent on board. However, we are fighting every day via emails and visits and every night via phonebanking to get to 60 votes so we can nail this thing down. Too many stubborn Democrat reps in conservative (or normally progressive but very fundamentalist Christian) districts are balking. So is the entire Republican caucus, as far as we know. Some may vote for this bill in the end, but they’re not advertising it now.
It’s so frustrating. I wish a number of gay and lesbian sons, daughters, sisters, brothers, best friends, etc. of these cowardly legislators would come out this weekend. Maybe then we’d get some action.
GregB
So the way to a renewed conservative success is for them to become more liberal without admitting it.
Ratfuckers!
cane giallo
Testing wordpress login. I’ve got a wp account but the login on this site says it doesn’t exist. So I’m logged in to WP from their site, not here.
jl
Since thread seems to have abandoned Handsome Ol’ Joe, I might as well chime in that I think this will be an interesting developing story: how GOPer Congresscritters will deal with local sequestration cuts.
Seems important to cover this, since they will be lying about the sequestration law every time they open their mouths, claiming that Obama personally sat there in the Oval Office and cut their specific local goody to spite the local GOPer loon.
Sequestration NIMBYism Grips GOP
Brian Beutler
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2013/03/sequestration-nimbyism-grips-gop.php
” A strange sickness is afflicting congressional Republicans.
Unwilling to team up with Democrats to replace sequestration with a mix of spending cuts and tax increases, and unable to pass a cuts-only sequestration measure on their own, Republicans’ official position is that they’ve made their peace with enduring, across-the-board spending cuts in perpetuity.
But now that those cuts are creating real consequences, individual members are experiencing buyer’s remorse. The only problem is, until they change their underlying position on replacing sequestration, the only thing they can do about it is whine.
Call it sequestration NIMBYism. ”
Edit: In fact, Obama probably was gaming out how to cut their specific program when he SUGGESTED and PERSONALLY ALL BY HIMSELF PASSED AND SIGNED the sequester law.
Davis X. Machina
No! No!. Doesn’t anyone remember anything that happened before 2009.
The official line is that we’re supposed to despise Biden because of his years of faithful service to the FIRE giants of Delaware like MBNA.
Raven
GO ILLINI!
jl
@Maude:
” McConnell is vowing to repeal Obamacare. ”
I predict these dead enders have about 9 more months.
The law will work very quickly to get people coverage, and then the dead enders lose big time. I guess they have to hope to throw enough sand in the gears to last through to 2014, but I doubt that will work, unless they are prepared to shut down federal health services programs through defunding, which would seem to involve a lot of blow back.
shortstop
@Davis X. Machina: Aren’t the constant firebagger whines bad enough without people baiting them into threads in which they’re so far absent?
Hill Dweller
@Maude:
That has about as much chance of happening as McConnell growing a chin.
Violet
@jl: I caught a bit of it on yesterday’s Today Show. Saw it from a distance, but heard someone saying “What is the ‘O’ for it OFA? Is it really ‘Obama’?” Faux-troversy for sure.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Jim DeMint on MSNBC just now: We can not stand up for limited government if we do not stand up for ‘traditional marriage”. I can understand a lot of right wing talking points– greed, fear, tribalism, willful ignorance in service of tribalism– but I can’t even imagine how this path works even in DeMint’s mind.
All of which makes me wonder, I haven’t seen Portman say when his kid came out to him, none of my business and I don’t really care, but I wonder if this is why it wasn’t Romney/Portman
ETA: Just heard, the kid came out to his parents two years ago.
jl
@Violet: I guess if anything can break through the new-pope-alooza and the WH tour catastrophe, that can.
Violet
@greennotGreen: You’re essentially saying the same thing–when they know someone personally who has to deal with whatever the issue is, then they’ll change their mind. It’s easy to demonize blacks, browns, immigrants, gays, women, poor people, etc. until they know someone personally who has to deal with some restrictive law. Maybe their daughter needs a second trimester abortion after amnio shows terrible chromosomal issues and the baby, if born, would suffer. Maybe their son is gay. When it affects them, they’ll change. Otherwise, “those people” are The Other.
Maude
@jl:
Ryan said this too. Problem is, Obamacare kicks in before 2014 elections.
@Hill Dweller:
Or a brain.
RobertDSC-iPhone 4
Perhaps there should be a segment where Biden reminds Obama that there would be no changes to Social Security on their watch.
Cassidy
There better be a damn Camaro and not the sleek and cool 67-69 one, either. No, I want to see a Gen 2 Z28 with racing stripes.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
OT: I have always thought Chris Christie is his own worst enemy:
link to HuffPo
Maude
@RobertDSC-iPhone 4:
Good point.
@Cassidy:
I’ve seen Cameros fishtail in the rain. No thanks. I’ve also seen fire and I’ve seen rain.
Maude
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Christie has been fighting with her his entire term. He is saying he isn’t naming names.
Jay C
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I think a reason wingers like DeMint seem to be trying to shoehorn opposition to gay marriage into the “limited government” bucket (
torturedenhanced-interrogated logic as it might require) is that if they came out and actually stated the real reasons for their opposition (i.e. something like “faggots are evil sinners and God hates them“), he’d be lumped in with cranks like Fred Phelps and his loony cult of gay-bashers, and lose whatever credibility on the issue he might have. Not that said “reasons” aren’t, disgracefully, all-too-common in our society: it’s a sign of improvement, I suppose, that they are now a fringe position: so that homophobes feel they have to use diversionary “logic” and euphemisms to mask their prejudices…Oh, and Joe Biden on the WH site? This is a Big Fncking Deal!!!
ruemara
@jl: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/03/obama-ofa-access-donations-clinton-lincoln-bedroom
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/02/common-cause-obama-shut-down-organizing-for-action
I see it making the rounds of organizations like the Coffee Party as many “I voted for Obama but it seems like I voted for Romney instead” “I left OFA because they keep telling me to support the President” comments abound. Meanwhile, MoveOn wants me to yell at Eric Holder for saying that when he tries to pursue banks he gets told that they’re such a big part of the economy, it would be harmful to prosecute them.
Roger Moore
@Hill Dweller:
What do you mean? He already has enough that it’s hard to tell where one chin leaves off and the next one starts. Growing another would be as easy for McConnell as being an asshole.
Yutsano
@Maude: One needn’t be literal about it. But yeah, injecting her race was unnecessary, but typical for Governour Harkonnen.
WereBear (iTouch)
@NotMax: that was a trumped up canard and should not be perpetuated. Don’t do the right wing’s work for them!
As a Biden fan (my Cuppa Joe cup has been taken over by Mr WereBear) I think this is a Marcy idea.
WereBear
I mean marvy! This is why I say iTouch in my name… the stupid autocorrect
WereBear
@Mnemosyne: Agree a million times.
gvg
I’ve thought since Reagan conservatives lack the imagination to pretend they were someone else and walk in their shoes.
It’s actually progress though, I remember when most people who found out a kid was gay, disowned them even when they were dying of aids. In fact in my nice world I had not even heard or understood the reality of gays until the news showed them dying and family abandoning then. I could not understand that and felt so sad for them. Then I met a few. They didn’t seem any different than anybody else really. I’ve known one for about 25 years, others just a decade or so.
It’s a lack of imagination as well as empathy. these days most people know someone they care about who is gay.
Mnemosyne
@shortstop:
I really hope you can get that bill passed by this summer so I can start asking my brother-in-law in Chicago when he’s going to find a nice boy and settle down, because he’s not getting any younger.
:-)
Maude
@Yutsano:
You do have a valid point. In NJ, It’s understood what he meant. He’s not PC.
I like him, but I hope a good Dem runs. I won’t vote for Christie. They’d be scraping poo people off the streets because they’d be flat from starvation.
Cassidy
@Maude: You can’t be wishy washy about the speed. You either pull out slowly or you floor that mofo.
Maude
@Cassidy:
Road pizza.
greennotGreen
@Violet: I think there’s a subtle difference. Yes, some conservatives will change their minds on gay issues when it’s someone in their families because it affects theirfamilies, but someone may change his mind because Steve, a nice guy at the office, comes out. Steve doesn’t affect the conservative’s family, but c’mon, he’s an okay guy. Don’t be mean to Steve!
scav
Love the detail that another Indian Tribe has signed onto gay marriage. Over and above the issue in itself, the complicating element that Indian Sovereign Rights introduces into GOP SOP States Rights! States Rights! talking points is delicious.
Rooting for Complications is a cousin to Rooting for Injuries, I will admit. But its also kin to Rooting for Reality.
jl
@ruemara: weak tea BS. I agree getting access due to size of contributions you give or can deliver is bad, but that is the system we have for now.
Access to Obama for OFA contributions that will go for PR and GOTV for a publicly stated legislative agenda is not the same as private meetings in private back rooms with Harding’s administration poker buddies, Nixon and his gang, or the two Bush presidents.
I guess Common Cause and a certain type of lefty prefer to unilaterally disarm, then lose, then whine about how awful it all is. That is, they are professional losers.
Has anyone noticed, BTW, that this is Obama’s second term and he is on his way out in less than four years? I presume he wants to improve Congress so he can get something done in the last two years, and build something for future presidents. OFA is fine with me, if they are open enough about their agenda and I can see a plan and some follow through. If money bigshots get access for that, it is the lesser to two evils, IMHO.
Joey Maloney
@Violet:
There’s this guy, the chair of the Illinois Republican party. If he has a gay family member he’s not publicizing it; his position is just that marriage equality is the right thing to do. Although, not to give him too much credit, he’s trying to weasel around by claiming his stand is personal, not ex cathedra as it were from his day job. Which he’s about to get fired from.
Corner Stone
@Maude: The poo people. That is too good.
jl
@ruemara:
My comment in moderation due to naughty words. Try again:
Weak tea BS. I agree getting access due to size of contributions you give or can deliver is bad, but that is the system we have for now.
Access to Obama for OFA contributions that will go for PR and GOTV for a publicly stated legislative agenda is not the same as private meetings in private back rooms with Harding’s administration 9 * k _ r buddies, Nixon and his gang, or the two Bush presidents.
I guess Common Cause and a certain type of lefty prefer to unilaterally disarm, then lose, then whine about how awful it all is. That is, they are professional losers.
Has anyone noticed, BTW, that this is Obama’s second term and he is on his way out in less than four years? I presume he wants to improve Congress so he can get something done in the last two years, and build something for future presidents. OFA is fine with me, if they are open enough about their agenda and I can see a plan and some follow through. If money bigshots get access for that, it is the lesser to two evils.
Edit: sorry for double post. I did not count on lightning speed moderation. I guess mistermix does not consult video replay.
Corner Stone
@jl: I don’t have a problem with the fundraising methodology. I also don’t have a problem with people asking for the same thing no matter who is in office.
scav
@Joey Maloney: Ther’s also this former legislator from MN. C&L
There’s a fair bit of stifled diversity of opinion, in all honesty, under the traditional lockstep facade.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@gvg: The first two people I knew were gay I met in college. One was what you would call the stereotypical gay – the way he walked, talked, and dressed matched everything I knew. The second one I didn’t know was gay until I had known him for about 18 months.
If I had any gay friends in high school in 88 in west Texas, they cleverly hid themselves. Considering what west Texas was like even that recently, I can understand why. Even straight, I was ready to get away from that backwoods place before I graduated.
shortstop
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: @Jay C: It’s a massively failed attempt at twisting our words to suit their purposes — you might call it the devil quoting scripture for his own purposes, if you believed in the devil. Their “argument” is that by legalizing same-sex marriage, we’re infringing on their religious freedoms to hate on gay people; thus, we’re the truly intolerant ones.
Yep, we’ve heard this shit before, but NOM and its allies are really pushing it now by insisting that marriage equality legislation is only the first step and they have it on good authority that churches refusing to marry dirty gay people will be prosecuted under the tyrant Obama’s justice department. The stories are getting wilder and wilder, and the bigots are eating them up with a spoon and reveling in their status as oppressed Christians. That’s where the “small government” argument, such as it is, comes in.
shortstop
@Joey Maloney: He’s not about to get fired. They had to cancel last Saturday’s meeting about whether to oust him because they couldn’t get the votes to do so and didn’t want to look stupid failing.
askew
@shortstop:
Oddly enough, I think the MN state house will pass Same Sex Marriage before Illinois at this rate. It seems the votes are there in MN and the Governor is on board, but they are waiting to push it through until after the budget is dealt with.
shortstop
@askew: Are the votes there? The MN house has a 73-61 Dem advantage. I hope they’re not suffering with blue dogs and bible freaks like we are, because that’s not a huge majority.
I do think this will pass in Illinois this spring, but we’re really having to work for it. Ridiculous when we have a supermajority like this.
scav
@Mnemosyne: While I’ve got an uncle I need to stare down into making my relationship with my other favorite uncle a formal one. (not that it matters, but all my non-gay uncles are crap so I need reinforcements for the numbers).
ETA, just remembered one decent straight one, mea culpa. Still need reinforcements.
Maude
@Corner Stone:
#70
Not only am I sending you the internets, but a bowl of mac and cheese.
aimai
@greennotGreen:
But its such a limited understanding. I heard Portman explain, basically, that he’d come around to realizing that maybe he shouldn’t be demonizing and attacking gays but he phrased it as “and here’s another way we can attack the evil liberals and undercut liberals. We will be the real party of family values and ‘support families’ while destroying those terrible liberals who are our polar opposites.” I realize he’s just trying to peddle his family’s problem as some kind of generic solution to Republican problems with voters but here’s the thing: it is beyond him to honestly admit that he reappraised his own attitudes and philosophy about a lot of things and came around to taking the ACTUAL LIBERAL POINT OF VIEW. He is determinedly dishonest and bigoted. Rather than admit that there is, in fact, some justice to liberal/gay perspectives on family and the state he renegotiates the entire thing in his mind and simply classifies his son’s gay marriage as “conservative.” And nothing says conservative more than destroying the enemy: liberalism.
Fuck him.
Corner Stone
@Maude: I love a good helping of M&C. I’ve been craving the M&C from Luby’s but I never seem to make it there. Been too busy to have the energy to make any homemade.
So thanks!
MattR
@aimai:
While I understand where you are coming from, I do think there is value to having someone like Portman talking about support for gay marriage being consistent with conservative values since it makes it tougher for other conservatives to use that ideology to reject it. While it would be great if Republicans started supporting gay marriage because they believe in treating gays as equals, having gay marriage become legal across the USA because Republicans claim that big government should not be intruding on what two individuals do would be a decent consolation prize.
Punchy
@scav: I have some reservations about Indian gay marriage….
shortstop
@MattR: Publicly, in my own small volunteer efforts for Illinois marriage equality, I agree with you. But if we can’t slam the duplicitous motherfuckers for their self-serving crap here in our own parlor…
Anna in PDX
@Roger Moore: Your take on it offers a clue for a way out – we need to make sure conservatives have more friends. Well, that will be pretty tough since they are such unlikeable people.
MattR
@shortstop: No argument there, though I might say that Portman deserves to be slammed for his self serving change of heart on that single topic no matter what rationale he used to justify it. (along the lines of what Mnemosyne said above)
Corner Stone
@Punchy: Do you have a vision of how it could be worked out?
askew
@scav:
It looks like the votes are there and we are going to get some Republicans signing on. They expect the House to be the bigger lift, but they are confident they can pass it.
askew
@scav:
It looks like the votes are there and we are going to get some Republicans signing on. They expect the House to be the bigger lift, but they are confident they can pass it.
askew
@scav:
It looks like the votes are there and we are going to get some Republicans signing on. They expect the House to be the bigger lift, but they are confident they can pass it.
scav
@Punchy: The chief among them being their tradional heavy involvement in Indian Affairs rather than Indian Wedlock?
Foregone Conclusion
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I can answer that one for you, because we’ve had it in Britain. It basically works along the lines of: marriage (even civil marriage) is an institution that is so ancient and timeless that it doesn’t belong to big gubmint, but to the people. Of course, elected government is the representative of the people’s will, and a majority are in favour of same-sex marriage… but still. Don’t let politicians redefine marriage!
@MattR:
I find myself disliking David Cameron more with every passing day, but I will say this: he came up with a very convincing conservative argument for same-sex marriage. It went along the lines of: conservatives believe marriage and the family are good, there’s one group of people who are crazy about getting married while the rest of us don’t seem to care that much, so why don’t we let them get married? Admittedly only half of his godforsaken parliamentary party went along with it, but it’s certainly an intellectually convicing argument that’s quite separate from the simple equal rights argument that liberals put forward.
MattR
@Anna in PDX: As a white straight male, it does not seem right for me to suggest that any gay, female or non-white person suffer through being friends with asshole conservatives, despite the possibility for positive side effects.
OTOH, there is also the fear that these idiots will take the wrong message from their newfound friends. They will meet someone who survived gay bullying and think that if that person survived it, then it can’t be that bad so there is no reason to take steps to curtail it. (Which is actually how Andrew Sullivan reached a number of his positions, specifically on why there is no need for hate crimes legislation)
Foregone Conclusion
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I can answer that one for you, because we’ve had it in Britain. It basically works along the lines of: marriage (even civil marriage) is an institution that is so ancient and timeless that it doesn’t belong to big gubmint, but to the people. Of course, elected government is the representative of the people’s will, and a majority are in favour of same-sex marriage… but still. Don’t let politicians redefine marriage!
@MattR:
I find myself disliking David Cameron more with every passing day, but I will say this: he came up with a very convincing conservative argument for same-sex marriage. It went along the lines of: conservatives believe marriage and the family are good, there’s one group of people who are crazy about getting married while the rest of us don’t seem to care that much, so why don’t we let them get married? Admittedly only half of his godforsaken parliamentary party went along with it, but it’s certainly an intellectually convicing argument that’s quite separate from the simple equal rights argument that liberals put forward.
Anna in PDX
@WereBear: I love autocorrect surrealism.
shortstop
@askew: I hope so. “The house will be the bigger lift, but we’re confident we can pass it” were the exact words we heard here last month. I’m not being Nancy Negative — as I said, I think it will pass — but the lift turned out to be a lot bigger than many of us anticipated.
Steeplejack
@Corner Stone:
Luby’s! Haven’t thought of that in a while.
When I was a kid we lived in Del Rio and had to make the trek to the orthodontist in San Antonio every month or so. One of the highlights of each trip was the ritual meal at the Luby’s in the North Star Mall. It was wildly extravagant.
rikyrah
let Joey B
be Joey B
shortstop
@Foregone Conclusion:
Oh, but we dream of getting even a handful of our godforsaken Republican party to go along with anything proposed by Obama or the Dems. Half sounds like heaven.
scav
@shortstop: I think that’s probably one of the joys of a really multiparty system. With rivals coming at you from all directions, it’s harder to maintain that sort of laser-focussed all-fronts obstructionism againt a single opponent.
rikyrah
@Cacti:
if that’s the best you can do… I totally believe it now.
shortstop
@scav: Yes, indeedy.
NotMax
@WereBear
Uh-huh. Sure it was. For each instance that has become public, no doubt.
The pattern is there.
Randy P
@Foregone Conclusion: I always reason it this way: the state has some reason for recognizing and providing incentives for an arrangement called “marriage”. Presumably society gets a net gain. Whatever those gains are apply equally well to same-sex marriage.
The State does not make these decisions on religious grounds. Marriage is defined by the State, not churches. The State just gives churches the right to confer this government-defined contract.
Punchy
@scav: Yes, and they shouldn’t buffalo those traditionalists into getting gay married. If I totem once, I totem a million times, take it slow. Ute cant believe the hostility with some of the elders. I’m surprised they haven’t Sioux-ed yet to stop it. Oh well, put a feather in their cap on this one.
Corner Stone
@Punchy: Aww, I wouldn’t wrestle too much over the issue as I’m sure they’ll reach a peaceful accord.
Mnemosyne
@NotMax:
Not really — it was a quote that Biden had correctly attributed multiple times before, and the right wing jumped onto the one instance where he forgot.
If you want to be pissed at him for something, hang on to him being the Senator from MBNA, because he really did screw us all over by supporting some pretty nasty credit card and banking legislation. But the “plagiarism” thing is bunk.
NotMax
@Mnemosyne
It wasn’t just once that he did not attribute the Kinnock words, it was twice. An earlier occasion dates from his law school days. Three more times (from JFK, from RFK and from Humphrey) while running for president in ’88. That’s a pattern.
Granted, he’s been better about it since the brain surgeries.
scav
@Punchy: Well, I Hopi didn’t offend you. Things are tricky in this Pomo world, but let me assure you I can appreciate the place Huron. I’m Delaware that the situation is complicated, and there’s Apache history of positions taken over time. It’s not Ioway or the highway.
Punchy
@scav: You sound like a Senator, one who may Cheerokee committee, asking questions and forced to eat Crow. Sauking due to frustration of being Mohawk-ish on the gay marriage issue than the next guy. So angry u just want to punt something, perhaps Kickapoo. Looks like yer up shit Creek.
scav
@Punchy: No, not political, I speak Aztec, mere data jockey, but one with a Hopi Maya create a better world, and transform these series of tubes and Pipes into a vehicle of Peace. File under temporary Idealist, it’ll pass.
Violet
@greennotGreen: I’m very late to the thread, but I think it’s Democrats and other left-leaning independents who would change their minds on gay marriage because of Steve, the nice guy in the office. For Republicans it would take a family member, most likely a child of theirs.
Corner Stone
@scav: You guys have gone completely off the reservation with these awful puns.
Debbie(aussie)
@Violet:
This! Just read the link and went ranting to my poor hubby, almost word for word.