I don’t have a strong opinion about intervention in Syria, but goddamn (via): Joe Lieberman, Bernard-Henri Levy, Karl Rove, Bill Kristol, Elliott Abrams, Leon Wieseltier, Max Boot, Paul Berman, Dr. Clifford D. May, Marty Peretz, and Danielle Pletka…LGM nails it:
I suppose it’s not literally true that the endorsement of these people means that bombing and/or invading Syria is a bad idea, but…let’s just if there was some way of betting that these people would be wrong you could be living in your own $32 million apartment complete with $160,000 wine cellar and million-dollar apartments for your many domestic servants.
And right on cue: an indecisive “interior monologue” from George Packer.
I don’t think I can take another 40 years of these clowns. Public discourse must have been more tolerable when life expectancies were shorter.
Jay B.
Wherever there is a population in trouble, we need to bomb someone. Wherever people are in pain, we need to bomb someone. If we spare one bomb that could be used to kill someone, we are not using our power the way it was meant to be used. Thankfully Doug, with these people actually close to the levers of power, I doubt very much you’ll have 40 years left to worry about them.
Redshirt
What’s so great about this current “crisis” is that if the US does anything militarily, all these same clowns will instantly denounce it and become doves. Cuz, Obama.
lamh36
Ok, I gotta believe that when the admin saw this letter their first reaction has to have been laughter
TAPX486
If these ‘experts’ issued a statement that it would get light tomorrow when the sun comes up, I would stock up on candles and batteries!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
chopper
so when do the complaints of of ‘boots onna ground’ begin?
beltane
The concept of hell was invented to account for the continued health and prosperity of horrible people such as this. I mean, they have to be held accountable for their actions sometime….
Salacious Crumb
for once, Dear Leader, Obots and neocons agree on something! Bomb bomb bomb Syria! another country in the PNAC nailed!
JPL
@Redshirt: They will say that the President didn’t do enough because if we only had one more day of bombing, we would have one. Just one more day.
gogol's wife
@beltane:
Yes, luckily I still believe in it.
beltane
@Redshirt: Those people will never become doves. If anything, they would fault Obama for failing to show sufficient resolve by exterminating a large percentage of the population.
piratedan
can we give them each a gas mask, an ak-47 and send them in as an expeditionary force? Chances are pretty good that they’d be hailed as liberators, right?
gogol's wife
I love your throwing BHL in there.
Comrade Jake
I caught an MSNBC segment this afternoon on the WH plans to hit Syria. Chuckie Todd was reporting that it’s not a matter of if we will strike Syria, but when and how hard.
David Korn was asking “what is an air strike going to accomplish?” Thank FSM at least someone in the media is asking that.
JPL
Doug, Surely you jest…
You should read Those Angry Days. Isn’t Charles Lindbergh viewed as a hero?
kindness
Guillotine?
Guillotine!!
Amir Khalid
@lamh36:
Linky bad. Please to fix?
scav
Citicizing a President when we’re in a state of war is about to be the very acme, the sine qua non, of patriotism, right? can’t wait for the faux media preening on same.
Redshirt
@beltane: Didn’t they all suddenly oppose action in Libya once it started?
lamh36
@Amir Khalid:
Ok, I gotta believe that when the admin saw this letter their first reaction has to have been laughter
Howard Beale IV
If Obama does pull the trigger and start lobbing hardware in Syria, especially if he doesn’t officially consult Congress, he just handed the TeaBaggers the impetus to file Orders of Impeachment.
And while they may win the House, they’ll lose in the Senate.
The question is, are they that suicidal to actually go through with it?
Suffern ACE
@Redshirt: leading from behind! (Faint)
Odie Hugh Manatee
“Public discourse must have been more tolerable when life expectancies were shorter.”
No, things just changed quicker. Now that we live longer the changes are slower.
Omnes Omnibus
@Salacious Crumb: Quoi? I don’t see calls for attacking coming from anyone but the neo-cons. And Packer, who is a douchebag.
Mnemosyne
Last I heard, the Arab League was asking Russia and Syria to change their votes at the UN to authorize UN action against Syria on humanitarian grounds. Without UN approval, I just don’t see the US moving forward unilaterally. Sorry, firebaggers.
Steeplejack
@Doug Milhous J:
And you could challenge someone to a duel.
TG Chicago
Three things I feel are sadly inevitable:
1) We’ll get involved in Syria
2) Larry Summers will be named head of the Fed
3) Many around here will explain how both of these things are the Hope and Change for which we elected Obama.
Gin & Tonic
@Mnemosyne: Without UN approval, I just don’t see the US moving forward unilaterally.
Hahahahaha! I hope you’re here all week, this is great stuff.
Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader
@Steeplejack:
And Jews had to be worried about a pogrom.
Steeplejack
Late again. Never mind.
ETA: Damn it, the font is much better in the edit window than in the “compose” window. FYWP.
gogol's wife
@TG Chicago:
Have you ever seen a single commenter here use the phrase “hope and change” unironically?
askew
Speaking of getting the gang back together. Harold Ickes, one of the many imbeciles who worked on Hillary’s 2008 campaign, has rejoined the DNC so he can help shape the nomination contest. Looks like Hillary has learned nothing from 2008 about surrounding herself with dumbshits but has learned to game the primary calendar ahead of time instead of trying to do after she lost the nomination.
MomSense
@lamh36:
I never get tired of that joke!
gogol's wife
@askew:
Yes, lamh36 linked that depressing information earlier.
Howard Beale IV
@askew: Wasn’t Ickes the original architect of HilaryCare?
TG Chicago
@Redshirt: Krauthammer has already teed up the neocon complaint: that getting involved in Syria would have been awesome if we had done it sooner, but it’s too late because Obama is a weak-kneed ditherer.
Pretty good plan: that way they can explain away whatever happens. If it goes bad, it’s because Obama waited. If it goes well, then that just proves that we should have done it sooner.
longtime lurk
Let’s see, is it worse for these assclows to agitate for this b.s. war, or for the Obama administration to actually implement this b.s. ware?
askew
@gogol’s wife:
Oops, I missed lamh36’s comment. I don’t know what is more depressing. Clinton relying on the moron that didn’t understand the nomination process in 2008 to fix the nomination process for her or that DWS is already putting her thumb on the scale to tilt the presidential nomination calendar in her buddy’s favor. Curious how far they’ll go. Move another state ahead of Iowa. Punish states that have caucuses instead of primaries. Only let “real Virginia” vote. We’ll see.
MTiffany
@Jay B.: It’s all right there in the Bible, “Spare the bomb, spoil the brown folk.”
TG Chicago
@gogol’s wife: I agree that nobody will use the actual phrase “hope and change”.
Trollhattan
Yeah, you got me–The Onion
Splitting Image
@Redshirt:
Not sure about all of them, but Newt Gingrich sure did.
gogol's wife
@TG Chicago:
Then you agree that your comment is disingenuous?
Belafon
I know we all like to wish things were better before, but “If Jefferson is elected president, your daughters will be raped on the street” pretty much indicates that it’s been at least as bad as it is now.
ETA: Also, the elites tended to live pretty long, even when the poor died early.
Keith G
@Redshirt: No. But, others will. Goes with the job.
PopeRatzo
President Obama deserves his war. Bill Clinton got to have a war and George Bush had two of ’em. When the clock was running out on Reagan, he made sure he not only got a war, but one that he knew in advance would be a glorious victory because our mortal enemy was a posh resort in the Caribbean, which was nice because that meant our troops could come home for lunch.
It’s only fair, that the head spy in charge gets to have his war now, and what good is being president anyway if you don’t get to have an illegal war? Plus, you just know this is B’s chance to really cement his legacy forever, and you know he’ll just be great at warring because he’s so smart and well-spoken. And anyone who says otherwise is a emo-Paultard and has a really big ego and can’t be trusted and should go to firedoglake with the other drama queens and John Cole.
The Dangerman
@Mnemosyne:
Turkey will invoke Article 5 of NATO and it’s on…
…my guess is we take out their air defense system. Their Russian hardware is good; our hardware to dispatch their Russian hardware is better.
I’m not thrilled about intervention – Syria looks like a failed state to me – but I don’t think Obama is crazy. He got pulled into Libya kicking and screaming.
MikeJ
@The Dangerman:
And even then used drones for recon and tankers offshore for support of allies.
Mandalay
@askew: Ugh. From your link, when Ickes was reappointed to the Rules and Bylaws Committee after an absence of five years he said “The goal is to design rules to nominate the strongest candidate for the general election”.
In other words, Ickes is on that committee to stack the deck to ensure that HRC gets the nomination. We mustn’t have a repeat of 2008 where the deck wasn’t stacked, and the best candidate got the nomination.
Belafon
@Mandalay: You must have a different memory of 2008 than I do. I remember the deck being stacked in her favor and Obama pulling out the win anyway.
Kropadope
@Salacious Crumb: I don’t think you’re gonna find many (any?) Obama supporters that want to bomb Syria. Some might accept it in a limited fashion as long as there is no invasion, no protracted commitments, and everything is done to prevent harm to innocent human life (good intelligence!).
Neocons WANT war with Syria.
Soonergrunt
@MikeJ: But we did also use manned platforms. We lost an F-15E in Libya. The door-gunner on the rescue helicopter sent to retrieve the crew shot six Libyan civilians, killing one on the landing zone.
Mandalay
@The Dangerman:
But that is specifically not the case with Syria, where he is a victim of his own rhetoric about lines that can’t be crossed. He needlessly boxed himself into a corner with that stuff.
I hope that when he looks back on his presidency he’ll view his casual threats to Assad as one of his blunders, regardless of the eventual outcome in Syria.
TG Chicago
@gogol’s wife: No.
Keith G
Time and time again, the historical record shows that poison gas is a poor tactical weapon on a battle front. It’s only reliable use is as a weapon of terror against civilian settlements. Women, children, and the elderly and infirm.
Women, children, and the elderly and infirm.
If a specific group of people have a unique ability to possibly reduce the effectiveness of, limit or deter such attacks, what are the moral implications for those people?
EthylEster
It appears that some part of Packer recalls how big a jackass he was about invading Iraq.
At least HE learned.
Kropadope
@Mandalay: Fuck the box. So he made a hyperbolic statement about responding to Syria gassing people? That doesn’t mean he needs to act if he thinks acting would be wrong. Furthermore, there are actions he can take well short of bombing. Hell, if he goes about it the right way, I could even get on board with limited bombing (military targets only, full effort to mitigate civilian casualties, no boots on the ground).
Mandalay
@Belafon:
Yes, we certainly have different memories. My memory is that Obama was playing by the rules and winning, and so Ickes tried to move the goalposts on delegate votes so that HRC would win.
This article describes how Ickes and HRC wanted unelected party-appointed superdelegates to be able to decide for themselves who should be the nominee, effectively ignoring the wishes of the “little people”.
And then Clinton and Ickes were pressing for HRC to be awarded the votes in Florida and Michigan even though those states had been disenfranchised for moving up their primary dates.
The Clinton campaign was pulling all kinds of dirty shit to in 2008 to ensure that Obama didn’t get the nomination, but they failed.
Suffern ACE
@Mandalay: if I recall correctly, they lost the super delegates as well.
Hal
@Mandalay:
Who could forget that old lady screeching “inadequate Black Male!!!” while predicting a McCain win for sure?
Mandalay
@Kropadope:
From a moral perspective you are obviously correct, but from a political perspective you are not. Obama is now forced to act to maintain credibility.
If he does nothing he will be perceived as weak and dishonest, both domestically and internationally. There was a previous incident when Syria apparently used chemical weapons, and Obama received a ton of shit for doing nothing. He cannot afford to go down that path again. He never should have made any hypothetical comments in the first place, but there is no going back now.
Politicians who refuse to answer hypothetical questions on the Sunday talk shows fully understand the risks involved.
askew
@Mandalay:
Yep. That’s why I am predicting he does something to devalue caucuses and Iowa since HRC will run into problems there. Maybe move up California and Texas where it is impossible to do retail politics and it turns into a contest of name recognition.
That’s the Clintons for you in a nutshell. They have no problems cheating to a win.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mandalay:
There are varieties of actions.
Mandalay
@Omnes Omnibus:
For sure, though I was specifically responding to the comment “That doesn’t mean he needs to act if he thinks acting would be wrong”.
All I am saying is that Obama must now do something (as opposed to nothing) as a political reality. I have no idea what a suitable response would be, but one that destroys a lot of stuff used for killing people, with minimal loss of life, works for me.
Bob In Portland
@Comrade Jake: Recently my mother told me I was related to Chuck Todd. Second or third cousin.
I’m sorry.
Manyakitty
Because our recent interventions have been such raving successes: http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/inside-the-cias-role-in-pakistans-polio-outbreak
SiubhanDuinne
@Suffern ACE:
In enterprise of martial kind
When there was any fighting,
He led his regiment from behind —
He found it less exciting.
But when away his regiment ran
His place was in the fore-oh!
That celebrated, cultivated, underrated nobleman:
The Duke of Plaza-Toro!
TG Chicago
@Mandalay:
To me, that’s the worst part. Obama and Edwards took their names off the Michigan ballot to support the DNC’s ruling, but HRC (who stayed on the ballot) wanted to collect the MI delegates regardless.
Kropadope
@Mandalay: Why does he need to act to maintain credibility? He’ll maintain more credibility with his own party for making the right decision. The other party will give him hell no matter what he does. Remember their reasoning system. “Obama is always wrong, so since he did this particular thing, (which we may have even wanted at a different point in time) that thing is wrong by default.”
danielx
I can just about see TBogg….”must…stay…away….from….computer…”.
I mean, that list of names? It’s like reading a list of the accused from a grand jury indictment or something. Some are just wrong – always – like Kristol, and some are actively malevolent*. if Obama actually buys into all this bullshit about how we must punish wrongdoing and (not coincidentally) make clear our national resolve, I may have to start believing that fable about how to a large degree all presidents are captives of the national security state.
*No, cancel that; they’re all actively malevolent AND wrong. In any case, each and every one is cordially invited to partake in a bag of salted dicks. Holy Joe and Bloody Bill get the biggest, naturally.
Jon H
“I don’t think I can take another 40 years of these clowns. Public discourse must have been more tolerable when life expectancies were shorter.”
I’m pretty sure that once someone lived long enough to be eligible to serve in Congress, they were likely to live quite a long time.
Jon H
@Kropadope: “Fuck the box. So he made a hyperbolic statement about responding to Syria gassing people? That doesn’t mean he needs to act if he thinks acting would be wrong.”
One problem with it is it gives the rebels incentive to stage a chemical attack on civilians in order to bring the West into the fight.
Rebels: “Hey, Obama, what do we need to do to get you to fight on our side?”
Obama: “I’m not going to do that. But if Assad were to use chemical weapons, I’d have to step in.”
Rebels: “Oh, okay, it’d sure be a shame if that happened.”
Jon H
@askew: My recollection is that Ickes wasn’t the main problem, it was Mark Penn.
If I’m not mistaken, it was Mark Penn who didn’t really get how the system was supposed to work, and thus campaigned ‘wrong’. Clinton and Ickes’ desperation with MI and FL and superdelegates was a result of Penn’s incompetence.
But it’s entirely possible that Ickes deserves a lot of the blame, but it fell on Penn due to his being such a cretin.
xenos
@Mandalay:
This is such bullshit. It was not some random rhetoric, but the actual policy of deterrence that, in one form or another, this country has been following for decades. I don’t much like it as a policy, but this is the Fox line that Oboma has been making shit up as he goes along and now has to back up his big words. If that were the case you would not see NATO falling in, ahead of the US, to take action. This includes the conservative government in the UK and the socialist government in France.
Groucho48
@Mandalay:
He will only be perceived as weak and dishonest by folks who would label him as weak and dishonest no matter what he did. House Republicans are already trying to figure out how to impeach him. For what, they don’t know, yet, but, give them a couple months and they’ll figure something out.
Hurling Dervish
@Belafon: Exactly right. And there were many voters (such as me) who voted for Obama precisely because the deck was already stacked for Hillary and we resented not having a voice.
Fred
The dao of lao tzu counsels that usually the best thing to do is nothing. If something awful is happening and no obvious action seems to be likely to improve the outcome then nothing is the thing to do.
DON’T JUST DO SOMETHING: STAND THERE!
I’ve said my piece. Now I’m sure America will rush headlong into an intractable disaster with ramifications that will resound for generations. It’s just what we do, dammit!
p.s. If Lieberman, Rove and Kristol are for it, well that just seals the deal, don’t it?
Humbert Dinglepencker
“Dr.” Clifford May? Dr. of what? Asshattery? He was an idiot when he was a small-time pundit in one of the local fishwraps in Denver. I doubt his advanced degree advanced his mental abilities.