The lawyer representing Mark Obenshain (R) in the pending statewide recount in the Virginia attorney general race on “for the first time openly raised the issue of contesting the election in the General Assembly if the tally does not sway the result in the Republican’s favor,” the Richmond Times Dispatch reports.
“If he loses the recount, Obenshain could ask a joint session of the General Assembly — which is dominated by Republicans — to reverse the results. Under state law, grounds for a contest include objections to ‘the conduct or results of the election accompanied by specific allegations which, if proven true, would have a probable impact on the outcome of the election.'”
Very serious legal minds will agree that the legislature would be wise to intervene.
Cassidy
Elections are for little people. But everyone here is cool as long as it doesn’t involve the NSA.
Ash Can
Elections are for little people.
ETA @ Cassidy: Dammit!
BGinCHI
This is a great idea right after the electorate slaps you down in every statewide election.
Beatings will continue until voting morale improves.
Big R
Look, we can’t have the mere will of the people getting in the way of our agenda. Not when it is ordained by G-d.
Elizabelle
I realize Obenshain could legally request this.
But I don’t think it’s in his best interest. Honestly.
If Herring were 165 votes short at the end of the process, I would think it was sad, but would accept the results.
Obenshain going scorched earth, and throwing it to the legislature, which is numerically in his favor?
He won’t have any credibility or legitimacy.
I’m not sure the legislature — at least the smart ones — want to deal with this.
Cassidy
Let freedom ring baby!
Elizabelle
Another thing: a lot of the people who run elections really take their jobs seriously, to ensure a fair election.
Fairfax County comes in last, because it’s huge. That does not mean corrupt, or badly run.
I don’t see where Obenshain wants to make the case that they’re incompetent to run an election.
Poopyman
@Elizabelle:
Two words. Virginia Republicans.
I have no doubt he’s capable of asking the leg to reverse the results, and I’m equally certain the leg will oblige him.
And I’m equally certain the msm will yawn and shrug it off, except for liberal outrage and wingnut “Heh! Suck it libs!”
Warren Terra
Since we all realize the Republicans will live out this particular sarcastic statement by Brecht eventually, it might as well be now, with the Virginia Attorney General’s office, rather than later, with some even more office and with other distractions.
Biff Longbotham
Not to worry, folks! The Roberts Supreme Court will step in and act in an advisory capacity to make sure everything in the Odd Dominion is done properly and above board in this most serious matter. Wink.
debbie
“Wise” and “legislature” in the same sentence?
eemom
ferfuxsake. Yes, let’s by all means set our collective hair on fire and predict that this rarely used, extremely narrow, not even yet invoked provision would be applied in a brazenly obvious partisan ploy by the VA leg to reverse the results of a valid election where there are zero grounds to do so…..and where those legislators may be republicans, but they’re not fucking idiots…..and where even THEY have refused to do shit like this just within the last year, exactly because they’re not that fucking stupid (redrawing the state electoral college).
Because there’s like NOTHING else to freak out or worry about today.
some guy
no one could have predicted that the Sarin attack in Syria may have been committed by Al Qaeda, or that Obama admin cherry-picked the intel to make it appear the chemical weapon attack came from the Assad forces. color me shocked!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/08/seymour-hersh-syria-report_n_4409674.html
Tommy
@Elizabelle: My mom runs elections and she DOES take her job seriously. I’ve lived in NOVA and heck if I lived anywhere and the vote count was this low I’d want a recount. There is human error.
chopper
@some guy:
if sy hersh says it, you can take it to the bank. the money bank.
Ayn Randy
@eemom:
Were you born yesterday? You really think Republicans would be above such nuttery?
Chyron HR
@some guy:
But there was no Sarin attack. Obama made it all up. You swore up and down that was the case. Surely you weren’t just throwing shit at the wall because you hate Obama, right?
Well, at least you’re going to leave forever on January 1st, when it turns out you were laughably wrong about Obama bombing Syria this year, right? Because you totally have some measure of self-respect, I’m sure.
Tommy
@efgoldman: Clearly. I guess I jumped in a thread I had not read totally. Recount. Sure. No legislature. That is the thing you take up arms against if it happens. No not really, but close.
eemom
@Ayn Randy:
Above and not stupid enough are two different things.
And who the fuck are you?
Elizabelle
@efgoldman:
Yeah, that’s the issue.
Recount: absolutely. Although I was told the numbers are not likely to change much after the initial post-election canvass.
Throwing it to the legislature? Out of bounds.
schrodinger's cat
What is the likelihood of this really happening? What do folks who live in Virginia think? My guess, negligible but not zero.
Elizabelle
@efgoldman:
In my local precinct, I’m pretty sure the folks running the polls are Republican.
Which does not mean they are not scrupulously honest, and committed to running a clean election.
I watched them count an election years ago; they took their job very seriously.
I don’t know that you want to go calling them dishonest and incompetent for personal political gain.
ETA: I don’t know that all are GOP. But I know the guy in charge was. And while he’d tease me about my political affiliation (good naturedly; he was best friends with one of my neighbors), I think he would have gone to the mat for me if the facts were in my favor.
some guy
@Chyron HR:
nope. that’s not what I claimed, but thanks for playing Straw Man Theatre. Johnny, what has he won?
PS: obama get out the vote worker. twice. that’s how much I hate the guy. the qulaity of Centrists on this blog has really gone downhill
Ayn Randy
@eemom:
Umm, a guy? I dunno. Who are you?
aimai
@schrodinger’s cat: The actual quote in the OP implies that you pretty much have to have a major smoking gun style allegation of fraud or theft, because nothing else fits this: “accompanied by specific allegations which, if proven true, would have a probable impact on the outcome of the election.’””
Its not enough to complain that you think you should have won–you have to make “specific allegations which, if proven true, would have a probable impact on the outcome of the election.” Thats a bit higher than “I want to win.”
sharl
OT, for Davis X. Machina or any other Latin language types:
Medieval Latin dictionary completed after 100 years
A short li’l BBC post – first few paragraphs (bolding & italics are mine):
Ripley
Huffingtonpost, it’s like the Glory Holy Bible: Literally true, bitches.
rikyrah
do it, mofos.
do it.
Elizabelle
@rikyrah:
I’m thinking Obenshain’s lawyer is doing this to rattle cages.
God help us if they go through with it.
ETA: I think they’re suggesting this to shake some money out of GOP rubes too. Good for fundraising, bad as strategy.
jefft452
@Tommy: “the vote count was this low I’d want a recount”
Recount? Sure, no problem
Just scrap the results of the vote and have the Legislature appoint the loser? Different story
? Martin
Obviously the responsible voters of Virginia intended to vote for Obenshain, but somehow miscounted. The legislature sees no alternative but to correct the record and appoint him to the office he most obviously was supposed to be elected to.
Mike with a Mic
@schrodinger’s cat:
I don’t think they will go through with this. There are two types of VA Republican really. You have your out and out batshit fucking insane types. They play well in the more rural areas that are full of whacko religious types and would totally be willing to do anything to put their people in charge. The other type of Republicans come from the blue/purple areas. These guys aren’t crazy or stupid at all, their conservatism is mostly about pumping up big defense, big tech, telecoms and other industries that make VA so rich and well off.
Many of those Republicans hate the Tea Party as much as the Democrats do. They aren’t really socially conservative and they realize that cutting government and sequestering the DOD is a really stupid fucking idea for the VA economy. They’ve been horrified at the shit going on in congress and what’s going on in their own party in the state. There’s no way in hell they’d want to empower the local Tea Party at all. They’d rather work with the bog standard business Democrats we have around here to keep things going along.
Keep in mind that the business/defense Republicans have worked with the Democrats to stop this sort of chicanery here before. Any NOVA/Hampton Republican realizes the Tea Party is the real threat and would be doomed politically if they tried to install a crazy AG.
ericblair
@schrodinger’s cat:
I’m with eemom on this. The Speaker of the House is a gooper, but is old school and put the kibosh on the gerrymander redistricting earlier in the year. Overturning the results of the election like this is complete banana republic bullshit: I bet you’ll see support from the teatard nuts but the Speaker would eat his own kidneys before staring into that particular abyss.
Of course, if this turd of an idea does come to flower, sign me up for the North Virginia Liberation People’s Front.
Roger Moore
@aimai:
That’s the way it’s supposed to work, but there’s a worry that the state legislature will care more about politics than legality. They’re the sole judges of what constitutes a “specific allegation” and “would have a probable impact on the outcome of the election”, so they could overturn the election based on nonsensical, obviously fabricated allegations of voter fraud. They could then turn around and use that as an excuse for more voter suppression laws.
Elmo
@ericblair:
We in the People’s Republic of Maryland will provide sanctuary across the border.
Elizabelle
@Tommy:
That’s it. I think Virginia has a lot of Tommy’s Moms running local elections.
I don’t see where they have grounds for overturning. This was just an impossibly close election.
I wonder if having two Marks in the race muddied the results a bit.
James Hare
@Mike with a Mic: Cooch is from NoVA — he represented a Fairfax County district before being elected AG. I doubt they’d go this far though — it would require the VA Senate Goopers to go along and they’ve proven a bit less crazy than the folks in the House. It would also have awful optics — Obenshain is requesting the recount. Not abiding the results would look like nothing other than sour grapes.
chopper
@Elizabelle:
exactly. i wouldn’t put it past some assholes, but come on. this is just shaking the money tree.
ericblair
@Elmo:
Solidarity, brother! We’ll hole up in the Tyson’s Corner mall Build-A-Bear, and if we need to bug out we’ll take the Beltway Express Lanes. They’re so fucking confusing, the hicks will never find us in there. Actually, we’ll probably never get out, either.
Elmo
@ericblair:
Well, lets not be hasty. You can have my spare bedroom, but my EZ Pass is precious to me…
Villago Delenda Est
@Biff Longbotham:
“This is not a precedent. We swear. On a stack of fig newtons, we swear it is not a precedent.”
Steeplejack
@? Martin:
I was confused by the hanging chads on the ballot.
Elizabelle
@Steeplejack:
Best part is we used an optically scanned ballot in Fairfax County. Paper record, bitchez.
eemom
@Elizabelle:
Dayum I loved that thing.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@ericblair:
Treasonous scum. The NVLPF is nothing but a bunch of lackeys in the pocket of the Republicans.
Support the People’s Front for the Liberation of Northern Virginia.
polyorchnid octopunch
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): Chyeah… I was waiting for that one.
GregB
Hopefully it will coincide with the tea-bagger impeachment of President Obama.
Keith G
@eemom: I have to agree with you on this one. Such an action would be at most a pyrrhic victory. That’s a trigger that would be dangerous to pull.
Donut
@Cassidy:
If only everyone were just like you, and held your opinions, no one would ever be wrong about anything!
kc
@Ayn Randy:
That’s the ghost of Leona Helmsley.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@some guy:
So, just for the record, you’re opposed to the peaceful process of negotiations going on right now that — not incidentally — helped lead to a diplomatic breakthrough with Iran? Or are you just posting the political equivalent of the latest news about the Kardashians?
catclub
@James Hare: would look like nothing other than sour grapes.
I seem to remember Minnesota in 2009 when many sour grapes were squeezed, to the avail that a senator was not seated for 7 months. Stopped a 60 vote majority for much of that time.
No AG means no one enforcing the law. For a Democratic Administration. What could go wrong
eemom
@kc:
good lapdoggie!
Now trot on over to an AL thread and get your treat.
El Cid
The problem with elections is with the voting. There’s too much of it, often by the wrong people, and sometimes a majority of people vote for clearly non-conservative candidates. That’s gotta be fixed.
Honus
@Elizabelle: This. I’ve worked several elections and canvasses as a voter protection lawyer and party rep at canvasses in Virginia the past ten years. (including Periello, McDonnel-Deeds AG, and Webb) There really is very little monkey business; election officials from both parties are pretty scrupulous.
Also, a statewide recount won’t change 50 votes. A recount these days is simply another canvass.
Redshift
@James Hare:
I don’t think that’s true. The legal code says:
I could be wrong, but I take this to mean that the vote is a single vote of the combined members of both houses, rather than a vote in each like a normal bill. That would mean that senators could only block it if enough of them voted against it to overcome the GOP advantage in the House. And not all the GOP state senators are sane — remember, Cuccinelli was in the state senate before he was AG.
fuckwit
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): splitters!
mdblanche
@ericblair: One important thing to remember about the electoral college gerrymander, however, is that it would backfire on the GOP if they won a state where they did it. In that case they’d hand over several electoral college votes they would’ve gotten under winner take all. Actually going through and adopting such a plan is tantamount to admitting they’d never win a presidential election fair and square in a given state ever again. And a party deluded enough to think they had a shot in Pennsylvania in the final days in 2012 won’t be admitting that soon. But I don’t think the same restraints apply in this case.
Honus
@Elizabelle: They won’t recount individual votes. Also, under Virginia law, decisions on the provisionals and absentee ballots are made during the canvass and can’t be challenged in the recount. The recount is really just another canvass, only simpler.
Redshift
@eemom:
Actually THEY didn’t refuse, one guy did. The state senate passed it, and it was blocked in a procedural move by the Speaker of the House after it generated considerable uproar. That suggests that even the GOP senators aren’t necessarily “not that stupid,” and I think it would be harder for Howell to procedurally prevent an election challenge from coming up for a vote than a normal bill.
Mandalay
@El Cid:
If you have an issue with dead people voting then just say so, but I really don’t see the problem.
Cacti
George W. Bush set the example for all time.
If you can’t win, just get someone else to declare you the winner anyway.
Mandalay
Just suppose Obenshain does become Virginia AG.
As a practical matter, in an otherwise all Dem Va, what could he do to really mess things up? It seems to me that if he does get the office, and then pursues controversial cases, it would actually be worse for the Republican cause than if he just conceded now.
This looks like a win-win for Democrats to me, though I understand next to nothing about the machinations of state politics.
catclub
When is there going to be an open thread on the Satanic Temple monument to be installed in Oklahoma?
Where is SG when you need him?
chopper
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
wait, the People’s Front for the Liberation of Northern Virginia or the People’s Popular Front for the Liberation of Northern Virginia?
Anne Laurie
@Mandalay: Adjust your snarkmeter.
eemom
@Redshift:
Fair nuff — you know your shit and are not just talking out your ass.
I still think, however, that it’s unlikely the batshits could prevail on something this obviously outrageous, because the “sanes” would have too much too lose……including from a Cooch clone being AG for the next four years.
Ferfuxsake, again — that is how they just LOST.
Jay C
@Mandalay:
It’s not the dead people voting: it’s too many of the WRONG dead people voting….!
Joey Maloney
@Elizabelle: I’m not sure the legislature — at least the smart ones — want to deal with this.
To quote the late Senator Adlai Stevenson, “That’s not enough, madam, we need a majority!”
Omnes Omnibus
@Jay C: Bart: Oh my God! The dead have risen and are voting Republican.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@chopper: There is no People’s Popular Front for the Liberation of Northern Virginia.
Omnes Omnibus
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): Sure there is. It’s just not very popular.
Mandalay
@Anne Laurie:
Au contraire ma soeur, I think you need to adjust yours.
Redshift
@eemom: I agree they probably won’t do it, but I’m definitely not confident enough to dismiss the possibility. They just doubled down on the plan to nominate candidates via a convention, which doesn’t suggest that they’re accepting any lessons of why they lost yet.
Jay C
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yes, the Popular People’s Front for the Liberation of Northern Virgina gets a lot more attention….
(Everyone wants to be in with the “Popular People”!!)
Omnes Omnibus
@Redshift: It is always difficult to use the standards of sane people to predict the actions of the more retrograde elements of the GOP.
Another Holocene Human
@ericblair: Trufax, when Virginia was going through growing pains and the law was changed to allow left lanes in NoVa to be used as travel lanes (because of rush hour congestion), rural hicks continued to write angry letters to the papers about them durned selfish people rudely hogging the left lane when it’s supposed to be a passing lane only! Also skirt lengths–too short!
Another Holocene Human
@Donut: Dunning-Kruger at work, Cassidy seems plenty decent when discussing anything within his sphere of competence, but it’s painfully obvious from his driveby comment that he’s never been within 50 miles of the Commonwealth in his life or else he’d know that many of the spooks work–and live–in Virginia.
And they vote.
Groucho48
If Reps had taken the Governorship, I’d be more worried about their trying something like this. But, with a Dem Governor coming in, I think it’s much less likely.
billgerat
@Honus: “Don’t you believe it!!!!” http://www.nbcnews.com/id/6744362/#.Uqbi9-LaETA
In 2004 Washington state Republican Dino Rossi was declared winner of the governorship with a 261 vote lead. After a mandatory recount, his lead slipped to 42. The Democrats paid for the cost of another recount, and Democratic candidate Gregoire ended up leading by a mere 10 votes, which became a 130 vote lead after the courts allowed “732 ballots to be reconsidered in King County, a Democratic stronghold. Those ballots had been mistakenly thrown out because of problems scanning signatures into a computer.”
Virginia law may differ from Washington, but our experience shows just the kind of stuff that can happen. We were fortunate to escape a GOP dirtbag from taking over, but it could have gone the other way under different circumstances.
Cassidy
@Another Holocene Human: IIRC, most of the NSA is in San Antonio and Augusta, not VA. And the NSA really aren’t spooks. They’re more analysts and technicians. I think you might be confused which agency I was referring to. Hell, I’m not even sure how that relates to my comment at all.
low-tech cyclist
@aimai: Even though I’d bet against its happening (based on nothing more than a gut sense of it, from 30 years of living in VA, plus another 15 years of watching it from across the river), it’s not that much higher a bar. I mean, anyone can come up with specific allegations that, IF proved true, would reverse a 165-vote margin. There’s nothing there that says they have to be proven true, after all.
My instinct is that there are still at least 20 Republicans in the General Assembly who would refuse to overturn the results of an election just because they could.
Two reasons: first, even though things have changed a lot over the decades, tradition still has more of a pull in Virginia than in a lot of places. And second, there are a lot of Republicans in the House of Delegates, representing parts of Virginia that Obama and McAuliffe won, who hold on by at least maintaining the pretense of moderation, which this would throw away,
I don’t think I’d want to bet the house on it, though.
Jeffro
@schrodinger’s cat: You’re right on both counts. Some VA GOPers are quite nuts but enough of them – say, 73%? – are sane enough that they’ll realize sending it to the GOP-dominated leg would mean the end of the GOP-dominated leg. Not worth it for the AG’s office.
They probably would do it if it were the Gov’s office, though.
Jeffro
@ericblair:
What, you don’t want to join my Liberation Front for the People of Northern Virginia??
Splitter!
ED: whoops, I see I wasn’t the first w/ this…lemme go get more coffee…
Paul in KY
@Elizabelle: The Repubs won’t care about any of that if he gets to be Attorney General.
Paul in KY
@aimai: They probably wouldn’t try this gambit, but if they did, they would manufacture some evidence that the partisan legislature would say was OK (in a closed session) & then vote.
danielx
@aimai:
True, but when did the truth of a particular allegation ever matter to wingnuts? The point is to get the allegations “out there”, kind of like flinging shit at a wall to see if any of it sticks. Jon Stewart made this technique explicit when interviewing Ann Coulter a while back: “You just make shit up.”
Woodrowfan
we’ll have plenty of food int he food court! Dibs on Five Guys!
Woodrowfan
CIA is in Virginia along with the NRO and Pentagon. NSA is Maryland, FBI and DIA are in DC. Not counting the satellite offices elsewhere like the FBI center in West-by-God-Virginia.
Jado
@Elizabelle:
“credibility”? “legitimacy”?
The only thing that matters is power. Everything is acceptable in the pursuit and operation of power, so if he has to go to the Assembly, he will.
You all say “scorched earth” like it’s a bad thing. It’s right out of the playbook – none of this would be necessary if the pig people would only vote the way they are told to vote. Obenshain has thousands of votes given by respectable, stand-up people; what does Herring have? Bunch a votes by “those” people. Everyone knows that the votes cast by “those” people are misguided at best, and fraudulent as a high probability.
If Obenshain has to do this the hard way, he will, but one way or another they will make sure the election comes out the right way.
You pig people are really making this complicated. You should only be thankful that Obenshain is dedicated enough to soldier thru until the end. Perseverance is an important conservative value.