Same-sex marriage now legal in Alabama as of today, although apparently some counties are refusing to issue any marriage licenses whatsoever now rather than allowing same-sex marriages to go forward.
Open Thread.
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the Conster
I hope we get to see the national guard making way to city hall for gay couples. Alabama never disappoints when it comes to fucktardery.
NonyNony
Also the Supreme Court has denied a stay of the Federal Court order. Of course Scalia and Thomas dissented, upholding the long tradition that states should be allowed to give the finger to the law when the law says something conservatives don’t like.
Karen in GA
And Georgia just kind of sits there, going “do whut?”
Zandar
My question is how long, realistically, can counties just not issue any licenses? I seem to recall this tactic failing miserably in Florida almost immediately and they were ordered to comply.
Benw
@NonyNony: USSC basically told the state AG to, uh, go suck a dick.
RaflW
Open thread topic:
NYT reporting that Climate Change Is of Growing Personal Concern to U.S. Hispanics, Poll Finds
Keep up the Hispanic outreach, GOP! Heckuva job, guys.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
Yeah. So, some counties have made their minds [sic] up not to hand out any licenses… But it’s gays who are “undermining the institution of marriage,” or whatever it is they’re bleating about.
What are these fundamentalist idiots going to do once gay people have been married for ten years even in Alabama, and society hasn’t fallen in around their ears?
GregB
Anti gay today….anti gay tomorrow….anti gay foreverrrrr!
SatanicPanic
@RaflW: Further evidence for the wrongness of the idea that Hispanics are “naturally conservative” and would leave for the GOP if they’d just stop harping on immigration.
Bex
AL Supreme Court Chief Justice Roy Moore (remember him?) issued some kind of “order” that says authorities can’t issue licenses…because he says so. Really?
RaflW
On the topic at hand, it comes as no surprise whatsoever that the state of George Wallace is at least 50% ass-backwards. That’s quite a state Supreme Court Justice they’ve got there.
Too bad the steamroller of history is coming thru anyway. May it flatten the judicially radical Scalia and Thomas in the process.
Amir Khalid
Repost from previous thread:
This is an interesting way to discourage football hooligans. Might it work in America?
RaflW
@SatanicPanic: Yes. And probably evidence that most Hispanics don’t have the slightest interest in watching Fox Nooz for all their gated community Republican self-affirmation propaganda, too.
This, as well: “Latinos’ views of same-sex marriage have changed dramatically in recent years. In 2012 for the first time, more Latinos said they favored same-sex marriage than opposed it (52% versus 34%) according to a Pew Hispanic Center survey.”
The GOP hasn’t got a clue how to do anything but be crammed up the asses of frightened white men.
ETA: which might be a bit to on-topic a description of the GOP. But then, there is that poll in AL asking if Judge Roy is a closet case.
catclub
@RaflW: I just read this about a 1990’s survey:
Now how do you square THAT circle?
kindness
H8ters gotta h8. They are so cute sometimes. Sometimes they are just ugly and stupid. this time they are stupid. Them and their little dog Moore too!
Corner Stone
@RaflW:
Must…refrain….MMMMMM…..
catclub
@GregB: Relevant! See T.N. Coates in the godbotherers discussion of Obama at the NPB.
Corner Stone
@RaflW:
Argh! Stop Baiting Me!!
FlipYrWhig
@catclub:
Not that hard to do. “Regardless of cost to somebody, but not me, I’ve got enough on my plate as it is. Let someone else do it. Rich people who have plenty already or poor people who get a free ride on my dime.”
delk
Those probate judges refusing to issue marriage licenses must feel so confident that The Liberty Counsel will be representing them.
Robert M.
How does this not end with Roy Moore held in contempt of court? (This isn’t a rhetorical question; it seems to me that issuing an order to judges not to obey a federal court order would be illegal.)
Paul in KY
@catclub: They didn’t mean ‘cost to them’.
boatboy_srq
@Bex: @RaflW:
There’s a very Spartan Ethic component to FundiEvangelist Xtianity. I’d be curious whether the two items (Moore’s rabid anti-LGBT stance and the poll) are more closely related than Moore would like.
RaflW
@catclub:
People want to do the right thing but feel that they are under enormous economic pressures. They’re also cheap. (OK, we’re also cheap).
This is why right now is the moment to raise energy taxes. With regular gas about two bucks a gallon, a 10 cent increase and indexing would go almost unnoticed. But we have totally craven asshats in government, so we’ll squander an excellent moment.
More broadly, the time is fast approaching that the costs of inaction will become painful. Several global reinsurance companies are starting to push for more climate response since the price of risk is up a lot.
Californians are becoming much more acquainted with climate change costs. In fact, as I think of it, CA is a significant Hispanic population base, and those folks are seeing multi-year droughts, severe rain events, etc, much more than the humid continental S.E. USA.
(And that is a problem inside the conundrum: the part of the US with the highest proportion of deniers is also the part of the US that so far is experiencing the least delta in temp. That perceived lack of changing ‘weather’ means their denialist bias is reinforced. Meanwhile, for example, the northern boreal forest of Minnesota is on the verge of collapse. Ugh.)
jeffreyw
Thread needs moar puppehs and kittehs!
gene108
When I hear right-wing criticism of President Obama not being “Christian enough” in his recent remarks, because he did not declare Jesus as the one true savior and said non-Christians can be good too, I do wonder what they expect any politician to say at a public gathering regarding Christianity?
Do they expect them to say, “Mr. Netanyahu, it is an honor for you to address Congress, but we would appreciate it more, if you would recant from your sinful ways, as you are born in sin and will remain in in sin, unless you accept Jesus as your Savior and hope you can convince your misguided country of sinners to see the light and love of Jesus. We want to let you know, we feel Israel is an important ally of the USA and appreciate you taking the time address Congress. In Jesus name Amen.”
Other than keeping the right wing rage-meter at 11 all the time, I do wonder, if anyone bothers to point out to these fools that it is not acceptable for a politician to declare people as sinners and damned to hell, if they are not Christian and if that is the litmus test for politicians, they need to get their Republican buddies to be more open about their Christianity, as very few Republican politicians – especially on the national stage – come right out and declare the Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, Hindus, et. al. are going to hell in a handbasket.
Belafon
@catclub:
You change the name of the Kyoto Protocols to “The Ronald Reagan Protecing Our Freedoms Protocols”.
Edit: I know I’m not addressing how these people keep those two thoughts side-by-side. I’m just trying to come up with a solution.
boatboy_srq
@Robert M.: It wouldn’t only if Alabama secedes from the Union. At which point AL law is the law of the land, and Moore can preside over the a#3-backward world he helped create.
Outside that, Moore is in contempt of court, and likely to be dismissed (again).
jeffreyw
@Amir Khalid: Cole’s momma polices this blog but she uses gentle persuasion. As far as we can tell, anyway.
gf120581
@boatboy_srq: If Moore is in the closet, he’d be even more of a cartoon then he already is. You could add “self-loathing closeted homophobe” to his list of stereotypes.
boatboy_srq
@catclub: I can’t help thinking that too many of the uninformed were convinced (from misreading the question) that the Kyoto Protocol was a plan to send money to Japan.
gene108
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
It is more about maintaining a social order, where you are clearly at the top of the pecking order. Anything that allows others to rise enough to gain the same benefits as you automatically means society has fallen apart.
Once only straight white Christian men, with a certain amount of wealth could hold elected office in the USA. They were clearly at the apex of the social structure.
Now that is blurred a bit, because women can rarely rise to the top, blacks can rarely rise to the top, etc., so society is not the way it “should be”.
scav
Good to know that good-ol Alabamans know better than the choirs celestial and all the choirs of seraphym and what-not. God the father may have thought he was gifting his creation with free will and the possability of freely choosing to sin and freely chosing otherwise but ALABAMA knows better than allow that. Anybody have the possibility to do something they see as sinful, then EVERYBODY must do something they view as sinful. Baby Jebus being in charge of his forgiveness at the final Judgement? Hell no, ALABAMAN Christians mete out premptive justice right here, right now, THEY know better the will, actions, intent and judgements of Their Lord then he/son/holy ghost ever could so there.
boatboy_srq
@gf120581: Interesting how many of those Upstanding Righteous Xtian Hetero citizens end up needing help with their luggage or something. No, I don’t have any inside info here, but my surprise would be unmeasurably low to learn that he had some “other interest” here.
Zandar
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
Continue to find ways to make married same-sex couples into second-class citizens through countless micro-agressions. They have centuries of practice doing that with black folk like me.
Villago Delenda Est
Time to send in the 82nd Airborne and kick some christianist butt.
catclub
@Belafon: That might work. The article I quoted was something like ‘Talking about climate change as adults’. And it pointed out that discussing taxes as part of what things ‘cost’ is far too complicated for our public discourse. We cannot talk sensibly about paying for the DOD with taxes. So this is still far too hard.
Obama is completely right in his assessment of gas taxes to not bring up raising them. He at least knows that the only way it will happen is if he is seen as mildly opposed or apathetic about them.
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-02-09/stopping-climate-change-will-mean-everyone-has-to-pay
catclub
@scav: Mobile, Alabama has Mardi Gras parades, too. And those capes are fabulous! I just was at the Museum of Art there.
Villago Delenda Est
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
As far as their feeble lizard brains can discern, society has fallen in around their ears because those gays are doing what gays do with legal protection and it’s the end of the world as they know it.
You know, how the 1964 and 65 Civil Rights Acts ended the world as they knew it.
Flashback again to the slap scene from In the Heat of the Night.
Bobby B.
The downside to this story is that Alabama still exists.
Good friend of http://fuckthesouth.com/
Chris
The next anti gay loon I talk to I am going to ask him..”If what the gays are doing is so heinous in the eyes of God..dont you think they’ll get theirs in the end? (no pun intended). Dont you trust him to mete out the punishment they so richly deserve?”
Villago Delenda Est
@RaflW:
FSM speed the day! Ramen!
Villago Delenda Est
@Chris: It’s pretty obvious that Jehovah was the Hugh Hefner of his day, going around impregnating virgins to procreate, basically borrowing the Zeus is on the loose playbook, except not with swans.
jl
Andrea Mitchel: hack
I cannot believe the Obama prayer breakfast speech is ‘a thing’. Glad I don’t have time to watch this garbage on the TV right now in real time and am only exposed to it through internet clips. I can see this stupid debate in places like Fox News and Beck, but this is on a supposed grown-ups’ network.
What puzzles me is where were all these outraged people when nutjobs, including GOP pols and a couple of US military brass were invoking the Crusades, in the sense that they wanted another one? And what is this ‘1000 years ago is so past’ stuff wrt to Christian terrorism. Those 168 people blown up by an Xtianist in OK in 1995 were not really people because they were in a government building? Or What?
For aficionados of hack US pundits, some interesting tidbits:
Brooks says sensible things. Todd manages to contribute zero content while committing seemingly (at first glance) decipherable speech acts that seem to be in English. I think the case could be made that Mitchell plays the role of pious moralizing scold, of the sort that gave Job pious moralizing scold advice, and whom God told to shut the F up because they were speaking falsely when S/He spoke out of the whirlwind at the end of the book.
MSNBC’s Andrea Mitchell Rips Obama For ‘Crusade’ Remarks (VIDEO)
“You don’t use the word ‘crusade,’ number one, in any context right now,” the host of “Andrew Mitchell Reports” said. “It’s too fraught.”
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/andrea-mitchell-obama-crusades-breakfast
Patricia Kayden
@RaflW: The GOP hasn’t got a clue how to do anything but be crammed up the asses of frightened white men.
Which works out quite well for them in mid-term elections (at least as of late).
Amir Khalid
@jl:
I remember Bush Administration people happily throwing that C-word around during their invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. And I said to myself, “How brave of them to state their intentions so openly.”
Villago Delenda Est
@Amir Khalid: Aye, they were, and totally unaware (or at least they feigned unawareness) of how loaded that word is in the Muslim world.
Frankly, I think they were trying to have their cake and eat it too…play to ancient Christian animosity towards Islam (“Gates of Vienna”, anyone?) and then say “oops”, Rick Perry style, after they were called on it.
jl
@gene108: Maybe Obama should have read the opening passage of Amos. That would make his mention of the Crusades seem very mild. God will judge the Gentile nations surrounding Israel because of war crimes comparable to burning a war prisoner alive. God will condemn Israel for lettting the rich oppress the poor, IIRC, letting loose women strut around. Anyway, ‘We’ did not consider the mote in our eye, before we condemned the log in ‘Their’ eyes, so God gonna go Medieval on us all.
But, Obama is no Old Testament prophet. Would be interesting if he played that role of a day, and see what the press says about it.
SRW1
I am quite convinced that conservative males will come around on gay marriage once they have gained some familiarity with it. After ll, it took a while for them to accept divorce. Initially they were sure that this was going to destroy the institutions of family and marriage. However, after a while they discovered that there were certain upsides to it, such as the possibility of a serial exchange to newer models of spouses.
Bob In Portland
In lieu of a discussion of America’s next war, there’s this.
But what the hell. It’s just a small war.
scuffletuffle
@jeffreyw: Awwwww, Katie!
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): Kill them for sport, just like they do for black people and interracial couples.
jl
@RaflW: The basic regional patterns of temp, rain and snow were predicted as far back as the 1990s, from memories of my reading. I am no Krugman, but I am Krugmanite in keeping a little list of predictions.
To bad our miserable failed corporate media experiment cannot figure out how to contact experts who understand the subject. Where would you find people like that? Gosh… I dunno. Why not books pundit hacks and ‘political consultants’ (partisan operatives) to talk about it.
ranchandsyrup
judge moore is prolly crying in his dip spittin’ cup.
Punchy
To the lawyers out there: read in several places that the work-around for the Bigot States is to pass laws making it a crime for a person to issue a marriage cert to a gay couple. How does a law like that work with federal judges’ decisions that bans are unconstitutional? Are these laws automatically unconsty too, or will THAT also have to be heard by SCOTUS (with the requisite 1-2 year delay on said marriages)?
jl
@SRW1: From some comments above, it is clear that some (many?) anti-gay movement leaders are concerned about unconstitutional government confiscation of their closets without just and fair compensation. Maybe they should just say so, and more people would listen to them, as opposed to an ever dwindling number of Christianist bigots.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: Russia has shown no desire for a broader invasion of Ukraine, either
Russia could end the conflict at any time, simply by withdrawing its material support and its personnel. The Minsk agreement was supposedly a framework for peace. Why are Russia and its proxies not abiding by it?
Davis X. Machina
@SRW1:The Court, and the official GOP, will slowly, grudgingly, give up on the entire social agenda, if that’s what it takes to keep the economic hegemony of the people who have bought them intact.
At the end of the day, equal marriage protections don’t pose remotely as much of a threat as, say, real unions. Or actual pension protections.
Their God is money. The rest will be tossed overboard, like a tub to the whale.
Davis X. Machina
@Gin & Tonic:
The Russian state just outsourced it. They’re not that retrograde.
Villago Delenda Est
@Bob In Portland:
Well, except for the Crimea. And the Donbass. And the area to the north, east, south, and west of Kiev.
jl
@Gin & Tonic: You probably won’t like my opinion that Obama is correct in a very go slow approach to Ukraine (to my ears, he signaled that he basically agreed with Merkel today). But BiP seems to become more alarmed no matter what happens. Today he is alarmed that the foreign affairs branch of the Brookings think tank put out something relatively hawkish.. And when do they not?
jeffreyw
@scuffletuffle: Yup, and Homer. Homer treats the dogs better than the other cats which leads to the unfortunate situation he faces now – the cats hate him and the dogs just barely tolerate him. Sigh
Frankensteinbeck
@catclub:
They don’t have to. Believing contradictory things is not impossible. It’s the ground state of humanity, which we have to work to overcome. The entry on cognitive dissonance is a perfect example of why college professors don’t accept wikipedia as a source.
@gene108:
It’s not about Christianity being right. Assholes demand to be praised for being assholes. It’s part of the mindset. They don’t want everyone to be Christian, they just want to be told they’re special snowflakes who are the best of the best, and Obama told them that they’re just like everyone else.
jl
@Villago Delenda Est: At least not until it is needed for some geopolitical reason.
I shouldn’t comment on Ukraine, since I am very cynical about both US/Europe and Russian motives, and both of these elephants seem to care about everything and anything except welfare of Ukrainians and Ukraine. But but when I go looking for useful info on Ukraine, following every BiP lead is not most efficient way to go about it.
And yes, BiP, I do click on your links when I see them.
West of the Cascades
@Punchy: Probably not “automatically” – but an expedited case that every district court will grant immediate preliminary injunctive relief on (finding that the laws are likely unconstitutional and ordering the issuance of marriage licenses forthwith), every court of appeals will affirm the district court’s actions, and the Supreme Court will deny the states’ review. If the states want to waste their resources fucking that chicken after this summer’s decision by the Supreme Court in Obergefell v. Hodges, they’re welcome to it.
Villago Delenda Est
@jl: Until the borders of the Rodina conform to those of the Russian Empire of a century ago, along with a cordon of puppet buffer states to the immediate west, BiP will be alarmed.
the Conster
@SRW1:
It’s more likely that gay white men will come home to the Republican party as soon as they can marry, because a lot of them care as much about their taxes as their civil rights. The GOP is all about their white men, and it won’t be long before Republicans forgive the gay, and emphasize the white male. Getting two out of three of straight , white and male is not bad.
Mike in NC
The wingnuts actually think their last recourse is going to be an amendment to the U.S. Constitution declaring marriage to be the union of one man and one woman (at a time, possibly).
Calouste
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
They’re already moving on to Muslims as their new favorite group to hate. And when Muslims become part of the in-crowd, just like Catholics and Jews have become part of the in-crowd over the years, (they all technically believe in the same god after all), they’ll move onto Hindus and/or atheists.
gogol's wife
@jl:
Good post.
Villago Delenda Est
@the Conster: It’s the old “IGMFY” situation for Rethug gays. They’ll forget where they came from, much as Scalia and Arapaio have.
jl
@the Conster:
” white and male ”
The GOP should come out of that closet. It could be a first of a twelve step program for them. Maybe some consultant could persuade them it would be a bold and counterintuitive next step for their outreach program.
gogol's wife
@jl:
Rev. Wright did his best Jeremiah imitation, and they sure hated that.
gogol's wife
@Villago Delenda Est:
LOL
CarolDuhart2
@Davis X. Machina: The problem with that for the Republicans is both geographical and numerical. The folks who just love money and don’t really care about the social agenda are located in places where even more liberal people reside. And they aren’t as numerous as the social conservatives either. Think of a Republican party that doesn’t care about abortion and gay marriage, and who is agnostic towards race. There just isn’t enough glue otherwise to make the party competitive in states they need to remain national. The money stuff is only important to people who already have real access to it.
And the ones remaining aren’t as passionate, or as likely, to do the groundwork that wins elections.
Frankensteinbeck
@jl:
I have wondered if the conservative movement would be much less angry if they would just admit that there was that one time they got turned on by the idea of sex with another man.
Villago Delenda Est
@Frankensteinbeck: Well, let’s be brutally frank here…that one time they got turned on by the idea of sex with someone of the same sex with skin darker than theirs.
chopper
WATB tears are the most delicious kind.
Another Holocene Human
@the Conster: What, and leave Oklahoma out of the fun?
jl
@gene108:
“we would appreciate it more, if you would recant from your sinful ways, as you are born in sin and will remain in in sin, unless you accept Jesus as your Savior and hope you can convince your misguided country of sinners to see the light and love of Jesus. ”
No, that is not fundy Endtimes Christianist enough. God’s busybody little helpers here on earth have convinced themselves that their religious duty is to help God get the Endtimes going, and try to get the world to blow itself up first, before Israel converts to Christianity, and the Jews get the happy choice of dropping with the smoking ruins of their county into everlasting fire, or convert.
Now THAT, my friend, is true Christianity.
Revelations says explicitly that it was not the role of good Christians to help God get the Endtimes rolling, but how exciting is that? Not very in some Xtianists’ eyes.
Another Holocene Human
@Karen in GA:
When D’s start winning statewide races in GA in a few short years (a la VA), I’m going to be giggling so damn hard at the faces on the GOP leaders’ faces.
Same story, too, ATL full of transplants (including Blacks who were part of the reverse migration, but also Asians, Yankees, and elitist high school graduates) just as NOVA was a big gov-related pop boom full of transplants, especially 1st gen immigrant Asians who got a taste of Southern-fried racism and vote Dem like a house on fire.
The mountain men can’t figure out what happened.
Another Holocene Human
@RaflW: I wonder how that breaks down by ethnicity, as a not inconsiderate number of Mexicans were forced to hit the road for employment after US-Americans drank the river dry and destroyed their once fertile farmland. So they know from habitat/micro-ecological destruction.
FlipYrWhig
@Davis X. Machina:
“Hey Ukraine, why dontcha stop invading yourself, huh, why dontcha?”
Another Holocene Human
@Bex:
Did the Ten Commandments say anything about bowing down to a Federal judge? Well Q-E-fucking-D.
trollhattan
Oh Lord, deliver me from this pit of fire. Victor Davis Hanson assesses California’s water problems and determines for us (spoiler alert) that it is the hippie’s fault.
Y’all should meet my pet salmon, “Buddy.” He’s the best fish ever, “Who’s a good fish? You are!”
catclub
http://www.prospect.org/article/needless-default
Obama’s worst legacy. The GOP, of course, does not even notice it.
Should I fix it and say domestic legacy?
The Pale Scot
I love the headline,
Here’s the video
ALL IS WELL!
catclub
@Mike in NC:
More likely a confederacy.
burnspbesq
@Robert M.:
Because that’s exactly the martyrdom that Moore is seeking?
Ordinarily in Federal practice the District Court would enter an Order to Show Cause why the respondent should not be held in contempt. That would normally lead to a hearing at which the respondent gets a chance to explain why he/she/it either can’t or shouldn’t be required to comply with the court’s order.
RaflW
@SRW1: Conservative males opposed divorce (and some still do) because they did not want to give up their chattel wives who had to submit to their sweaty heavings, or risk being damned by a vengeful male god.
Belafon
@Frankensteinbeck: Now that I caught you here, what did you think of the Steven Universe episode?
Seanly
@Amir Khalid:
Us Americans are too fat & lazy to have football hooligans. Other than a few drunks in the crowds or out in the parking lots, we’re pretty well behaved. There is the occasional riot at the home city after a championship game, but that’s about as close as we get to European hooligans.
Back on topic, I still worry that the Supreme Court is going to vote against marriage equality (and also against ACA). But I am happy that marriage equality continues expanding.
Face
Isn’t being gay in Alabama much like being a dentist in WV, an environmentalist in NE New Jersey, or perhaps a biology teacher in KS? I mean, it can be done, and certainly some brave souls are trying to make it, but dayum it’s a lot of work and endless hassle.
Belafon
@Seanly: That would we an strange swing, though: Allow marriage in Alabama, but then deny it everywhere.
Gin & Tonic
@jl: Following Bob’s links can indeed be going down the rabbit hole.
He is, and I want to say this carefully, one who sounds well-informed for someone who professes to read neither Russian nor Ukrainian. He can parrot facts about the current situation that are pretty far beyond the knowledge of an interested amateur, and he is familiar with fairly obscure historical facts, or at least talks about them in a way that mimics the way in which those with an *interest* in them talk about them. Often it sounds quite like Republicans going with the Luntzian talking points of the day. But there seems to be no depth.
Peale
@Amir Khalid: Openly and without permission of the Pope. I mean, seriously, there’s always been a little bit of orderly protocol about who decides whether it’s a crusade or not. The crusades themselves were really disorganized campaigns, but not every nut could call it a crusade and have everyone believe him. As far as I know, the Pope didn’t transfer that to assistant secretaries of defense. He shoudl have trade-marked it.
rikyrah
David Brock resigns from Hillary Clinton PAC
By Kenneth P. Vogel
|
2/9/15 2:42 PM EST
David Brock on Monday abruptly resigned from the board of the super PAC Priorities USA Action, revealing rifts that threaten the big-money juggernaut being built to support Hillary Clinton’s expected presidential campaign.
In a resignation letter obtained by POLITICO, Brock, a close Clinton ally, accused Priorities officials of planting “an orchestrated political hit job” against his own pro-Clinton groups, American Bridge and Media Matters.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/02/david-brock-resigns-priorities-usa-action-115028.html#ixzz3RHOK1bAf
opiejeanne
@Bobby B.: Wow. I don’t smoke but if I did I’d need a cigarette now.
Mandalay
@Amir Khalid: There were two somewhat passive measures taken that pretty much killed soccer hooligianism as a weekly event in Britain:
– All seated stadiums.
– Security cameras absolutely everywhere.
O/T: did you see this Liverpool clip?
(No idea why the Malaysian clip was the first hit in Google).
Buddy H
I recently read some interesting comments by Aaron Haspel:
“Abroad we make our soldiers pretend to be policemen, and at home we let our policemen pretend to be soldiers.”
“An American has no betters, as far as he knows.”
Gravenstone
@Corner Stone: Some true masters of the craft at work.
Couldn't Stand the Weather
Under the definition of “ass backward” in the dictionary is a picture of Roy Moore.
But, we knew that.
As for Andrea Mitchell, she is no better than Cokie Roberts, Diane Sawyer or the Faux News bottle-blonde bots (though Megyn Kelly is showing signs of rudimentary cognitive ability, as of late).
The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion
@the Conster: FUCK you. Got any stories about how that one black guy you know who votes Republican is an indicator of how quickly black folks will forget the entire course of U.S. history and start voting Republicant? I am so GODDAMNED tired of the heterosexist bigots on this blog prognosticating about what gay men will do once they “get their rights”. Blow it out your bigoted ass and die in a fire.
Seanly
@Belafon:
The Supreme Court will be looking at 4 cases from the 6th District in the spring/summer. I’m worried that they can throw the entire thing back into chaos.
Link here.
Bob In Portland
@Villago Delenda Est: Let’s try this again because there is a density in BJers that is hard to penetrate. Until 1954 Crimea was part of Russia/Soviet Union. It was administratively transferred to the Ukraine Socialist Republic at the end of the US-backed civil war that had continued after WWII by those pro-Nazi forces within Ukraine. It was still a part of the Soviet Union. I have never seen it written thusly, but it seems that Krushchev did this to balance out with the anti-Russian Nazis in the western Ukraine. It worked for awhile.
The mighty Russian aggression against Crimea was accomplished without anyone being killed. Most of the population is ethnic Russian and are quite happy being a part of Russia again. There have been a little less than 20,000 Tatars who left Crimea since Russia took over. They have not received any support from the Kiev government and now face the choice of being pushed around by the local Nazis or being organized to be Salafist rebels injected back into Crimea. Great choice, eh? Just like in Iraq, Syria, Libya et al. The Tatars, like other Muslim populations in and around Russia, have been infiltrated by Salafists financed by the House of Saud and the CIA. We have seen the same invisible hands operate in Chechnya and Dagestan. You may not have seen those same hands because you don’t understand how well false flags work on you. But they do.
In the year since Russia declared that Crimea was again a part of it the standard of living has gone up while the rest of Ukraine has gone deep into a shithole of failing businesses, fascism and bankruptcy. Russia has offered to run another plebiscite there, but the western powers aren’t interested. Once sections of Ukraine are given the ability to vote themselves out of the current mess that is Ukraine they would. Kharkov, Mariupol and Odessa would be on the next plebiscite out of Ukraine, and there are indications that even the west of Ukraine is ready to dump the Kiev regime.
Let us look at Crimea for a moment. Russia, without firing a shot, took Crimea over completely. If Russia’s goal was to take the rest of Ukraine, why are they dragging their feet? Do you actually think that Russia would get any real resistance from the regime in Kiev or the motley army that is crumbling as we look at kitten pictures here in the US?
Of what value is Ukraine to Russia and to Europe and the US? This is a question I’ve repeatedly asked and which idiots like Villago are incapable of answering. I just ask again to point out without any idea of what the US foreign policy is you will never actually figure out what the US is actually doing or how it will act in the future.
So what is Ukraine’s benefit to Russia? For the next four or five years a large portion of its natural gas to European markets passes through it. It also has historically been connected to Russia and has been a buffer to western military aggression against Russia.
What is Ukraine’s benefit to Europe? The the next four or five years a large portion of its natural gas from Russia passes across the territory. Losing that much energy would push Europe into another Depression. It’s almost there already, and the sanctions on Russia are wounding European industry and farming.
What is Ukraine’s benefit to the US? It is right next to Russia, offers the US another opportunity to fuck with Russia, to interfere with European energy supplies, and is one step closer to controlling Russian oil and gas supplies, the ultimate goal for all these oil/pipeline wars.
You will note that the US and Europe don’t give a rat’s ass for Ukraine and its people. Eventually Ukraine will supply low-wage workers for Europe, but right now there is no need even for that. Russia certainly has no love for the current crop of Nazis groomed by the US to make mischief, but most Ukrainians, like the majority of people in most countries, aren’t warmongers. When the shooting finally ends Donbass will either be an independent nation, or, more likely, part of a loose Ukrainian federation. There is no other option.
Do you want a direct war with Russia? If so, then Ukraine matters not at all because it will burn with the rest of the world. Do you think that you will have a free and democratic, prosperous Ukraine after the civil war ends? How? Neither the EU nor the US has any tangible economic answers for Ukraine. Letting Monsanto buy up farmland is not the answer.
The intentional avoidance of discussing this war here at Balloon Juice is both a reflection of the writers here and the commenters. It seems that while the anti-war movement in the US has degraded from mass demonstrations to irony and snark through the Bush II years, now that the President is nominally a Democrat there is no room for much more than that. Balloon Juice is ground zero for snark, irony and deflection. Certainly no explanation of what the hell the US cares about in Ukraine. And US foreign policy is nudging up against Russia, risking nuclear war.
Why are Americans generally, and Balloon Juice particularly, avoiding talking about Ukraine? I think the simple answer is that you deep down realize you have no say in the matter, which is true. AUMFs aren’t even necessary anymore. I’ve seen estimates that the US has special forces in from 133 to 150 countries around the world. Any idea what they’re doing? Who they’re training? Just hanging out, defending embassies?
And you still deny to yourselves that there has been and is a large CIA footprint in Ukraine. Do you actually think that if our military are in over a hundred countries in the world that some aren’t in Ukraine, playing a part in the war already?
Please notice that you are standing shoulder to shoulder with John McCain and the clown car of Clintonistas in the State Department.
That Balloon Juice won’t write and discuss what is happening in Ukraine allow all of you to be snarky, occasionally get outraged by me without actually understanding much at all about Ukraine. Gin&Tonic has a following here, so when he says that there are no Nazis in Ukraine, you go along. The pictures must be fakes, or they’re actually Russians dressed up as Nazis. The lesser bloviators can ratchet up a suitable “America, Love It or Leave It” response to my posts. Or references to “Hodor” because, quite frankly, you have nothing worthwhile to say on the subject. You accept propaganda in the NY Times written by the same people who cowrote WMD articles with Judith Miller a decade ago. You wait for a clue from Rachel Maddow. You listen to NPR and when Corey Flintoff gives you lies, you obediently gobble them down. It’s not what Brian Williams and the rest of the news readers say about themselves, it’s what else they say. You look for something from some commentator somewhere to back your ignorance. You are the epitome of what they used to call “good Germans”. There won’t be any mobilizations here in the US. There are too many poor people with no other option than to risk life and limb for the empire for the draft ever to be brought back. You are safe, maybe a little less financially viable than you were twenty years ago, but certainly not threatened immediately.
Earlier I asked what the US’s interests in Ukraine are. So women can walk around with blue fingers on election day? To bring democracy to Ukraine (via a coup)? To protect all those Baltic states that Russia would otherwise conquer? There’s a reason why your answers are fuzzy, illogical and self-contradictory.
It’s a fascinating study for me, of how well the US propaganda machine controls the liberal side of its population. Pretty hopeless, with you good Americans, armed with snark and irony, hunker down for the next war.
Cervantes
@Amir Khalid:
I’m not sure we actually have football hooligans.
Speaking of which, however, when did your compatriots start pronouncing it “Man-CHEST-er United”? I hadn’t noticed it before.
gary panos
@Bob In Portland: You might be interested in Kunstler’s opinions on Russia/Ukraine:
http://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/barbarism-versus-stupidism/
shelley
The Home Decor ad at the top of the page features a pillow saying “Let It Snow”
Aaaaaaarrrggghhhh!
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: You see, if you keep waving that I, as opposed to you, can’t read Ukrainian, even the most dimwitted BJers will eventually be curious as to how you picked up such a relatively obscure language. You won’t answer, and people will condemn me for speculating, but it’s still there.
As far as the situation in Ukraine, I know that since the stories in Kiev change on a daily basis that they are themselves an unreliable source. The Russian soldiers’ dogtags transmogrified into passports, which, unless you believe in magic, didn’t happen. If this is proof Russia has sent its soldiers into Donbass for you, I can prove Russians are illegally occupying Oregon by producing five phony drivers’ licenses. Logic says that if you are sending people into an area and you don’t want them to be discovered you don’t send them into a war zone with their passports. Who were they going to show their passports to?
Does anyone here still believe the phony story of the recovered rebel communications produced hours after MH 17 came down? You have to if you are going to cling to the story of the airliner being shot down by Russia or the rebels, because otherwise it would show a foreknowledge on Kiev’s part of the airliner being shot down. You have to be confident, like our Malaysian correspondent, that if we just sit quietly with our hands folded that the proper authorities will eventually release the satellite photos, the autopsies, all of the evidence of Russia’s criminality. But until then, “NATIONAL SECURITY.” My god, how pathetic you folks are. What’s your motto? “Don’t question authority”? Plus, you are not capable of understanding false flags and propaganda. You can’t believe that your version of the world is a lie.
You have a guy who speaks Ukrainian in a country that imported fascist Ukrainians after WWII, bottle fed the fascists and their organizations, here and there, for seventy years. He denies the pictures of Nazis. Who are you going to believe, Gin or the pictures?
The irony is that if Gin really does give a shit about Ukraine and Ukrainians he’s cheering on the destruction of his beloved country. But true believers and propagandists never change their tune.
jl
@Bob In Portland:
” so when [Gin and Tonic] says that there are no Nazis in Ukraine, you go along. ”
Just for the record, I don’t know what Gin and Tonic has said about it, but I do not care what he says about it. There are obviously Nazis in Ukraine, just as there are Nazi groups in almost every European and Anglo country. I have seen enough evidence of their presence in Ukraine that they should be a worry there, as they should be elsewhere. And whether or not the US has explicitly decided to push Nazis as a tool in Ukraine, they have certainly encouraged themselves enough by events there to be even more worrisome.
I think the influence of far right groups in, for example, Hungary, are even more worrisome. Has the US had an explicit “let’s encourage Nazis and their ilk’ policy in Hungary too. Seems like some part of the Hungarian public does a pretty good job of that on their own.
Seems like you push gotchas too much.
For me, I worry that if Ukraine is able to accept the loving embrace of ‘the West’, some austerity-loving US educated economic or banking bureaucrat running things in Ukraine would produce enough pain to encourage and popularize Nazis more effectively than some covert US policy of interference in domestic affairs.
Chris
I seriously was not expecting Alabama to be anywhere but among the last five or ten states to legalize same sex marriage.
Heck, I wouldn’t have been surprised if it had taken a Supreme Court order.
That’s what I get for stereotyping.
Bob In Portland
@jl: Actually, that is a good position to take. If you are not sure that the US and the EU are necessarily telling the truth, I would never recommend swallowing everything from the other half of the world without due consideration.
One thing I would suggest, though, is that you read everything as having been in some way informed by propaganda. There is a motive why certain people say certain things in the way they say them, which are then filtered down to you.
I’d also offer that at this point reading stories in the international press about “the other side” of the Ukrainian debate is sort of like walking into the middle of a semester of third-year French (or Ukrainian) without any background.
That’s why I’ve repeatedly linked to the article in The Nation, the interview with Russ Bellant. Maybe you never heard about the use of Nazis in the Republican Party, or the coddling of fascist Ukrainians for seventy years and just the idea of it sounds absurd. That’s why what’s going on doesn’t make sense to you. But keep reading, my links, other links, and try to see the purpose behind these machinations.
And consider the parallels with our many other military interventions over the past fifty years. If the US lied to us about WMDs in Iraq, why did they lie? If they lied to us about the purpose of all the years of occupying Afghanistan, why did they lie? What happened to the moderate anti-Assad Syrians? What happened to the freedom-fighters in Libya? You can’t blame it all on Cheney. In fact, American foreign policy hardly blinks anymore between Presidents.
Chris
@RaflW:
I think it’s not a “Hispanic” thing so much as a “someone other than a white Anglo-American right winger” thing.
Conservatives, and to some extent the “both sides do it but liberals are worse” mainstream media, really overestimate the ubiquity of their assumptions. Climate change denial is one of the many tribal shibboleths that the Angry White Conservative tribe has developed over the years in opposition to Liberal Elitists, European Elitists, and the United Nations One-World Order Secret Government. But if you’re from outside the tribe, haven’t been raised with all their assumptions or followed the growth of all these beliefs through Fox News and the like over the years, quite likely you’re just going to treat it as the total gibberish that it is.
Bob In Portland
@jl: That’s why you need to read the Russ Ballant interview. If I knew about the Nazis in the Republican back in the 80s, that puts me thirty years ahead of the information most BJers bring here.
What do you think will be the eventual outcome of Ukraine? How will more fighting resolve the issue? Will Ukraine get back Crimea? Will the people of Donbass suddenly surrender to Kiev? Will it get out of bankruptcy? Where does your map tell you that Ukraine is heading to?
jl
@Bob In Portland: I am aware that the US used some ugly far right and criminal elements to interfere with European politics after WWII. I am not sure to the extent that is still deliberate US policy.
What I can see, at least in economics (something I know enough about to evaluate) bothers me enough to focus on that aspect.
Being worried about Nazis in Ukraine is one thing. Believing murky stuff about the US deliberately pushing Nazis to run Ukraine (which I believe is your position) is another. I really do not know enough to understand how to evaluate that claim. Even though I click on people’s Ukraine links here.
A lot of Nazis will come out of the woodwork in many countries and cheerfully try to co-opt movements that they think will provide a more congenial environment for them, whether they are right about that or not. That does not mean that Obama and Merkel are plotting away to put Nazis in charge of things hither thither and yon.
Bob In Portland
@jl: Back in the 80s I was reading about Paul Weyrich consorting with former Greeen Arrow war criminals being trained in the US with his Free Congress Foundation, a right-wing NGO that was preparing Eastern Europe for a return to fascism. What were all the people at BJ doing? Were you aware then? Have you caught on yet?
I would advise, though, that even fascists like Le Pen, who hasn’t insinuated herself into the corridors of power, isn’t the only element of fascism in France, or Europe. Fascism is inextricably linked to corporatism, which is essentially what runs the US now. Democracy today is merely a clothing accessory for a country that is seriously off the rails.
As far as the US and fascism in Europe, read about Operation Gladio.
Bob In Portland
@jl: Read some of the more provocative comments of Yatsenyuk. Then read what Victoria Nuland said to Ambassador Pyatt about who she wanted in power after the coup.
There was a reason why Russia released that intercepted phone call. And there was a reason why Nuland and Pyatt were talking about who to put in power after the coup before the coup happened.
By the way, freedom-fighters in Libya. Closer to Nazis or democrats? How about those moderate anti-Assad forces in Syria? How about the residus of Saddam’s army in ISIS? Or even the Shia in Iraq who were using those power drills back in 2004? When the US gave Osama bin Laden SAMs in Afghanistan during the Reagan regime, was he a moderate pro-democrat? How about Pinochet in Chile? How about the death squads in El Salvador? How about Operation Phoenix in Vietnam? If you acknowledge all of the above, then when did we stop consorting with fascists around the world? After the Cold War? After Obama was elected?
Bob In Portland
@jl: Here’s another book for you to read.
Tree With Water
I know it’s damn near impossible to sue government at any level. But why couldn’t a couple denied a marriage license sue the judge involved, and/or the state of Alabama itself, for denial of legal rights? There must be a legal recourse, mustn’t there?
It’s well and good there exist judges in Alabama prepared to publicly humiliate Moore by doing their jobs (“I now pronounce you married, good luck you’ll need it”). It may just be the first sign of a political pulse I’ve detected from that state during my long toothed life.
Bob In Portland
I read the book, haven’t seen the documentary.
Bob In Portland
Also, what is in Ukraine for the US’s benefit? Any BJers have any clue?
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: you don’t send them into a war zone with their passports.
Bob, once again your lack of actual local knowledge, as opposed to RT talking points, rears its head. In Russia and in Ukraine, the passport is *the* identity document. You’d no sooner leave the house without it than you would leave without your wallet or car keys. Think of it as a national identity card, or in US terms a driver’s license. You are expected to show it on demand, and you use it for nearly every transaction you’d encounter short of buying groceries.
BTW, since you like to probe the connections of every journalist, and point out who is Miles O’Brien’s girlfriend, have you ever troubled yourself to point out, in your repeated references to that article in The Nation, who runs that magazine, and who her husband is? Might that color their coverage? Stephen Cohen has been a Soviet and then Russian apologist and an anti-Ukrainian for a half-century.
And wrt to your Nazi drumbeat – how’d Svoboda or Pravy Sektor do in the last parliamentary elections? How many members of the Verkhovna Rada do they have now?
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: and there are indications that even the west of Ukraine is ready to dump the Kiev regime.
Link, please.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: Gin&Tonic has a following here, so when he says that there are no Nazis in Ukraine
Link, please.
Bob In Portland
@jl: Did you notice the $350 million military aid package voted on unanimously by Congress? During Vietnam LBJ would go on tv and talk about his “heavy heart” in this or that ratcheting up of military aid to the South Vietnamese government, through the military coups et al. Were you around to remember that? I have no idea of whether Obama wants to up the ante in Ukraine, because the Republican Congress will do it anyway and then denounce Obama as a wuss.
What is obvious is that when the Brookings Institute calls for war, they often get it. But what will Ukraine get after all this is over? What if they win, or more likely, what if they lose? The war is generally unpopular throughout Ukraine. The fascist punishment battalions aren’t under the direct control of the Ukrainian army. How long until the next coup in Ukraine, and what happens then?
By the way, all the non-lethal aid the US gave to the “moderate anti-Assad Syrians”. Where is it now?
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: What, is there a link to people announcing that they’d rather believe you? How about that it’s wrong for me to ask you why you learned how to speak Ukrainian? I have nothing to prove to you. Your mind is closed and you are operating on an agenda that was written 70 years ago. So be it.
There are probably a few here who are curious about what is going on in Ukraine as opposed to the terminally closed-minded. You, Gin, are merely a watchman making his rounds.
So give me your longe-range ideas of the future of Ukraine? Will it return to the glory of 1942? Will the Moskals be driven out of Donbass? Will Monsanto make a profit? What do you actually think will happen, and what do you expect America to do to help along your vision of the future?
This is usually the point of the conversation where you feign outrage or act coy and then don’t answer any questions. What is the future of Ukraine, Gin? Any idea?
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: I’ll let you look that up for yourself. Hint: opposition to the mobilization.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: No, a link to where I said there are no Nazis in Ukraine.
chopper
@Bob In Portland:
Right, he’s the guy with the agenda.
Villago Delenda Est
@trollhattan: VDH really needs to be crushed, totally by accident, by a 16 ton weight.
Villago Delenda Est
@Bob In Portland: Hodor Hodor Hodor.
Did I mention HODOR? May have missed it somewhere in that sea of grey where you spout crap that tries, pathetically, to blame anyone but Russian Imperialists and their running dog lackies (that would be you) for the problems in Ukraine right now.
Bob In Portland
@chopper: chopper, let me break this to you gently. Everyone has an agenda. I want the US to stop being a fascist state, stop killing people around the world, to include here in the US, and to return to democracy. What do you want? Are you getting it?
Botsplainer
Bob in Brighton Beach is a master of the long, pointless screed.
Mandalay
@Gin & Tonic:
I have no knowledge either way about your claim, but I find it surprising. The corollary is that everyone in Russia and Ukraine must own a passport. Is that the case?
jl
@Villago Delenda Est:
“VDH really needs to be crushed, totally by accident, by a 16 ton weight. ”
I read the Hanson column. What an ignorant and incoherent rant that was. Looks like Hanson has a farm and he is PISSED he can’t get all the water he wants.
Interesting that very water intensive crops due to cheap water were unsustainable even before the drought, and overpumping, even before the drought, started causing land subsidence that will disturb the water distribution system.
He seems to think that agriculture, which consumes 80% of state controllable water, is the canary in the coal mine that is signalling that urban and industrial populations, that consume 20% of controllable water, will soon run out. No, if the drought continues, some of the irrigated agriculture will go away, and many think that would be a good thing.
Hanson hates on Northern California urban water users because they use so damn much and he says that is hypocritical because he seems to think that the average suburban lawn waterer is some radical green environmentalist. I think the facts are that urban Northern California uses (edit: and wastes) a lot of water for same reason that Central Valley agriculture uses (edit: and wastes) a lot of water: they get it very cheap and they have had the rights to it.
Hanson says he grew up in Central Valley in 1950s, and he is a pundit. Why does he not know much about place?
At one point in the piece he says CA pop has doubled due to immigration from Mexico and Central America. Really? It’s all due to just those two places, and probably illegal, I betcha. I guess he had to prove his anti-immigration cred for other wingnuts.
Gin & Tonic
@Mandalay: Yes. One is issued to you automatically when you turn 16 in Ukraine or when you turn 14 in Russia.
Mandalay
@Gin & Tonic: Wow! Do you know what the thinking is behind such a policy?
Is it just putting a kinder, gentler face on requiring every citizen to carry their “papers”?
Bob In Portland
@Mandalay: Actually, there are plenty of people in Ukraine who’ve had Russian passports prior to the coup. I remember in 1971 talking with a guy who owned a bar on Majorca. After the local cop with the patent leather Napoleon hat and the submachine gun walked by, I asked him what he’d do if things got really bad in Spain. He said, “I have a British passport, so if I must leave I will.” It’s a strategy you don’t see in the US, but I suspect in much of the world a passport that can’t be revoked may just be a handy thing to have. You might also remember the lines of Crimeans getting their Russian passports after the annexation.
Also, while I don’t know how hard it is to forge a Ukrainian passport I know that there is a secret army of Mexican invaders in California carrying phony driver’s licenses. Drivers licenses also sell well in high schools.
Since Poroshenko refused to show them to any Russians who asked that they be examined, I presume that maybe even Poroshenko might not be completely convinced of their authenticity.
Gin & Tonic
@Mandalay: There are “internal” and “external” passports. The “internal” is the fundamental identity document, so, yes, your “papers.” You need an “external” passport to cross the border.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: there are plenty of people in Ukraine who’ve had Russian passports
Yes. They are called “Russians.” Ukraine does not allow for dual citizenship. Russia allows it under certain limited circumstances in theory, but you must report such “other” citizenship to the authorities. Failure to do so is a criminal offense.
Bob In Portland
@Villago Delenda Est: Plenty of villages have been destroyed in Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan and other destinations of our military over the past decade or so. So I presume your pseudonymn is an actual reflection of your braindead ranting here, right?
You folks are hopeless. When are any of you going to work up the courage to discuss Ukraine here? Remember Village, reacting merely makes you a reactionary. You expose yourself as a reactionary every time you trade comments with me. Try to be a liberal. Ask questions.
What is America’s goal in Ukraine? Do you have any clue? Of course not.
Bob In Portland
@Botsplainer: If you think it’s pointless to wonder why the US is risking a nuclear war with Russia, then you are pointless. A pointless good American.
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: Is Yatsenyuk a fascist? How about Kolomoisky and his punishment brigades?
And since the fascist third position developed after WWII anyone can be a fascist if they want. Even Jews.
Matt McIrvin
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
Wait for year eleven, presumably. I’ve been assured that ten years in Massachusetts without the implosion of society is too soon to tell.
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: They’re called Novorussians, and since prior to the war there was plenty of traffic between Donbass and Russia, marriages, family, friends, etc., there are a lot of Ukrainians who have Russian passports as well as Russian in-laws, and considering current circumstances I doubt if they’d want to surrender them to the Kiev regime. But I’ll accept any link you’d like to produce to prove that Ukrainians don’t have Russian passports.
But that’s merely an argument on the edges. Are you saying those stupid Moskals secretly sent thousands of Russian soldiers into Donbass, invisible from intel satellites, but made sure that they had Russian passports on them? Even Poroshenko backed away from the latest claim of seven thousand Russian troops in Donbass.
Sorry that I mention Poroshenko. He’ll be the first to go in a coup. Maybe Shaashkavili can get him a good deal on a condo in Brooklyn.
muddy
@jl: Oh lord, I could type way too much about VDH’s land issues and martyrdom. I spent a dinner party hearing it in excruciating detail. I thought it was a dinner party and not a lecture, but he just held forth. He was oblivious entirely. There were interesting people I would have liked to hear from, but no. It was all Victor whining. Why do they always *whine* like that? Boohoohoo
Ripley
Well, at least you kinda linked your polemic to the topic at hand.
chopper
@Bob In Portland:
Am I getting the fact that you’re a worthless waste of skin and organs? gotten long ago, my friend.
Villago Delenda Est
@Bob In Portland: And once again you bring up non-sequiturs while ignoring the actions of Russian imperialists because, after all, they’re the good guys as far as you’re concerned. Instead you insist on bringing up US behavior around the world instead of concentrating on what is going on in Ukraine, because reasons.
yodecat
Alabama! Neil Young knocked it out of the park, so to speak.