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You are here: Home / Science & Technology / Today in science grouchery

Today in science grouchery

by Tim F|  May 28, 20159:22 am| 58 Comments

This post is in: Science & Technology

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Beefsteak tomatoes taste like cardboard soaked in rainwater. I can basically never come up with a reason why I would use one even relative to those other supermarket varietals. So if you try to super-size fruit based on the beefsteak mutation, odds favor either nothing useful happening (tomatoes are not a fruit derp, tomatoes are a fruit and not a vegetable; got my pedantry backwards) or else you will get inconveniently large, flavorless fruit.

As big a personal stake as I have in the science business, we kind of have a crap record when it comes making fruit more awesome. We can make fruits that are easier to grow, prettier, produce larger yields, resist disease and get ripe only when we want it it to ripen, and I guess that is a big Bidening deal for an increasingly urban planet. A lot of that means the difference between having fruit and not having fruit at all. On the other hand I cannot find a lot of enthusiasm for ‘beefsteak’ strawberries, mangoes or cherries.

I get the need to breed fruit with consistent size, flavors and other properties. You lose some taste in the trade-off but you gain the ability to grow and deliver product at otherwise impossible scales. On the other hand beefsteak tomatoes and beefsteakified fruit just seem like a pointless waste. Grouch grouch grouch. Give me some funky-looking heirloom paul robesons or bear claw tomatoes, some salt and balsamic vinegar and I’m in heaven.

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58Comments

  1. 1.

    Germy Shoemangler

    May 28, 2015 at 9:31 am

    You’d think with a name like “beefsteak” it’d be scrumptious. But no. It’s bred to basically survive a long trip on a tractor trailer from a factory farm to a mega-supermarket. Where it can sit unbought and still keep its looks.

    Heirloom all the way. Failing that:

    Last winter, we set up a little grow operation in our living room. Grow light, huge container, good soil, cherry tomatoes and basil and peas. The flavor is like nothing from the SuperMarket™

    Flavor literally explodes in your mouth (if I am permitted the expression).

  2. 2.

    Greg Bernhardt

    May 28, 2015 at 9:32 am

    Tomatoes are most definitely a fruit.

  3. 3.

    Betty Cracker

    May 28, 2015 at 9:32 am

    My husband grows many varieties of tomatoes, but there’s a purple type that is my favorite — low in acidity with a wonderful flavor. We were feasting on them about a week and a half ago. When the first tomato crop of the season comes in, I just want a few slices on Italian bread with a little mayo, salt and pepper and good olive oil drizzled on top — breakfast, lunch and dinner. Well, not really. But it sounds good.

    So why can’t Science solve the flavor conundrum?

  4. 4.

    Valdivia

    May 28, 2015 at 9:35 am

    Hmmm. I think I prefer fruits that taste fresh and juicy than anything that is supersized.
    I do get the economies of scale advantages of all of these advances but I never understood why you need fruits and vegetables to be so big.

  5. 5.

    Gin & Tonic

    May 28, 2015 at 9:39 am

    tomatoes are not a fruit

    I thought the fleshy seed pod of a flowering plant is a fruit.

    Let me check. Hm, “the sweet and fleshy product of a tree or other plant that contains seed and can be eaten as food.”

    /pedant

  6. 6.

    donnah

    May 28, 2015 at 9:39 am

    The best cucumbers we’ve ever eaten were the ones my sons grew in our backyard along a chainlink fence. They were crisp, sweet, juicy and we picked them at the perfect time, pre-blimp size.

    I’ve always told my husband to choose the smaller strawberries, too. The bigger they get, the more fibrous and less flavorful they are. Once they reach a certain size, they’re hollow.

  7. 7.

    Germy Shoemangler

    May 28, 2015 at 9:39 am

    fruits and vegetables from the factories are bred to be… pretty. Good looking.

    Some of the best-tasting fruits and vegetables I’ve ever had were freaks and geeks, not the pretty, popular kids.

  8. 8.

    qwerty42

    May 28, 2015 at 9:41 am

    Disagree. Any *ripe* tomato will taste great. It does turn out there are all kinds and variations of great. But once ripe, even “sunny” (the usual grocery store tomato) is fine. It’s just not what you usually get at the store.

  9. 9.

    Lavocat

    May 28, 2015 at 9:41 am

    There’s a George Carlin joke in there somewhere, but I’ll be damned if I can find it.

  10. 10.

    OzarkHillbilly

    May 28, 2015 at 9:45 am

    @qwerty42:

    Any *ripe* tomato will taste great.

    Obviously enough, you have never eaten a real tomato.

  11. 11.

    justawriter

    May 28, 2015 at 9:46 am

    I feel the same way about grape tomatoes. These revolting little red marbles have pushed the tasty and similarly sized cherry tomatoes off of a lot of smaller grocery store shelves, and when you do find cherry tomatoes, they cost almost twice as much as the grape monstrosities.
    It’s a plot I tells ya, a plot. First they come for the tasty big tomatoes, then the tasty little tomatoes. All that’s left is the weird tomatoes, and you can bet your last doubloon that some little wiener in a lab somewhere is working hard on the tasteless weird tomato.

  12. 12.

    C.V. Danes

    May 28, 2015 at 9:48 am

    You lose some taste in the trade-off but you gain the ability to grow and deliver product at otherwise impossible scales.

    But isn’t taste like, I dunno, the most important part? I should just resign to accepting strawberries that taste like cardboard so that agribusiness can make even more profit?

    How about this: lets task science with making strawberries that taste like better strawberries.

  13. 13.

    peach flavored shampoo

    May 28, 2015 at 9:48 am

    Beefsteak tomatoes taste like cardboard soaked in rainwater

    Simplified that for ya.

  14. 14.

    boatboy_srq

    May 28, 2015 at 9:50 am

    @Valdivia:

    I never understood why you need fruits and vegetables to be so big.

    You don’t. Food service (especially fast food) does: without the big stuff they can’t keep slices-per-food-item counts consistent, can’t keep portions-per-dish consistent, and run into supply and service issues with odd-size servings. That fugly beefsteak tomato is eight to ten slices per tom with each one big enough for one-slice-per-burger assembly; going heirloom means one slice may be big enough but two or three are more likely, which a) makes kitchen staff count and make judgments on the fly which slows down the process, and b) mean those extra slices become higher consumption which raises costs. Fast food in particular depends on big, consistent fruits and veggies (tomatoes in particular) to keep the burger assembly lines humming so customers aren’t waiting for their meals and to keep their procedures close enough to robotic to ensure a “consistent” product. What shows up in SuperMarketLand is part excess production and part conditioned behavior by consumers who’ve been taught by McD’s what a “burger” is supposed to look and taste like complete with its single tomato slice and fistful of shredded iceberg lettuce.

  15. 15.

    Lavocat

    May 28, 2015 at 9:50 am

    You’re welcome:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwYFMzOGOnM

  16. 16.

    Iowa Old Lady

    May 28, 2015 at 9:56 am

    Sorry for the OT: I’m listening to the Chris Hayes show from last night. An editor from Boing Boing just made some ageist comments about an art show that rips off Instagram images. There’s stuff to discuss there but faulting the image borrower for being “old” isn’t informative.

  17. 17.

    OzarkHillbilly

    May 28, 2015 at 10:00 am

    For those who don’t know, these are what a real tomatoes is: Baker Creek tomatoes.

    Caution: The Baker Creek website is like porn for gardeners. You have been warned.

  18. 18.

    pete

    May 28, 2015 at 10:02 am

    @C.V. Danes: The first GM food to hit the store was called the Flavr Savr Tomato. I bought a couple out of curiosity, they were on promotional display at Safeway. They had NO flavor. Everyone else agreed, sales tanked and they vanished into cheap canned sauces for a while before disappearing completely.
    Back then (mid-1990s), the companies know what people wanted (taste) and tried to boast about the technology; but what they were making was a benefit only to Big Ag. Now they hide the technology and keep quiet about the taste. And the benefit still goes to Big Ag.

  19. 19.

    NonyNony

    May 28, 2015 at 10:05 am

    @justawriter:

    These revolting little red marbles have pushed the tasty and similarly sized cherry tomatoes off of a lot of smaller grocery store shelves, and when you do find cherry tomatoes, they cost almost twice as much as the grape monstrosities.

    You’re missing the connection here. The cherry tomatoes cost twice as much because they’re harder to process without bruising, harder to transport without squishing, and harder to stock without having a lot of squashed tomatoes lying around.

    It isn’t that the grape tomatoes are pushing up the price of cherry tomatoes – it’s that nobody wants to pay the extra price it would cost to have cherry tomatoes instead of grape tomatoes. There’s a price point people are willing to pay for small tomatoes and the supermarkets can’t afford to stock the tastier but finickier cherry tomatoes and sell them at that price. But they can for the grape tomatoes, even if they are a bit on the sour side people still buy them at that price. So that’s what gets stocked.

    None of this is rocket science – the reason why we can’t have nice food in our stores is the same reason that median wages adjusted for inflation are flat. If the money were spread around more then there would be more people willing to pay the cost of having quality produce in the supermarkets and we’d have less of this messing around with breeding to come up with hardier fruits that taste mediocre (it would still be there because there would be a drive to push down costs anyway, but with more people willing to pay for better quality you’d get more stores willing to cater to that desire and more selection).

  20. 20.

    Iowa Old Lady

    May 28, 2015 at 10:08 am

    I bought asparagus at the farmer’s market in Madison last weekend. (I was there for WisCon, the feminist science fiction con.) I was amazed at how much tastier it was than the stuff I’ve been buying at Hy-Vee.

  21. 21.

    raven

    May 28, 2015 at 10:08 am

    Sadly the hydroponics at Sam’s actually taste pretty good.

  22. 22.

    Diana

    May 28, 2015 at 10:08 am

    Yes, but some of us hate the taste of a raw tomato. So if a restaurant dumps a slice of flavorless tomato on something I don’t have to taste it.

  23. 23.

    Joel

    May 28, 2015 at 10:10 am

    I always wondered how much of the S. cerevisiae genome you would have to modify to get baker’s yeast that tastes like T. melanosporum.

  24. 24.

    OzarkHillbilly

    May 28, 2015 at 10:14 am

    @Diana: HERETIC!

  25. 25.

    Uncle Cosmo

    May 28, 2015 at 10:21 am

    “Ripen”? Was bedeutet dieser “ripen”??

    You know how they “ripen” tomatoes now? (Those that aren’t labeled “vine-ripened,” & priced higher, that is?)

    They put greenish ones in vats or bins or rooms & pump the containers full of ethylene (C2H4 4U science geeks) just long enough to turn ’em reddish & then ship ’em off in boxcars to market. But only just long enough, ‘cuz ethylene also mediates their decay. (Yinz ever see them green-colored bags or containers that are supposed to keep food fresh longer? They work [to whatever extent they work] because the plastic absorbs ethylene.)

  26. 26.

    opiejeanne

    May 28, 2015 at 10:21 am

    Question: While tomatoes are being dumbed down, are the bland commercial varieties losing actual food value?

  27. 27.

    Valdivia

    May 28, 2015 at 10:28 am

    @boatboy_srq:

    and as always we, the individual consumers, pay

  28. 28.

    bluefoot

    May 28, 2015 at 10:29 am

    @Joel: I would guess that it would be quite a lot, though I actually have no idea how many genes or metabolic pathways are responsible for the taste of T. melanosporum. I assume it’s not a single compound like wintergreen oil which is easy enough to whip up in the lab.
    A winemaker once told me about a yeast genetics program in France that was focused on generating and sequencing different yeast strains and testing/quntifying their effect on the taste of wine. Pretty interesting stuff.

  29. 29.

    WereBear

    May 28, 2015 at 10:29 am

    It’s all part of the bigger scam which is to make our existence seem possible on the serf wages they want to pay. Flavorless plastic produce is simply the leading edge of processed food that has the taste and nutritional content of cardboard, plastic cars that don’t have the staying power of the toy Tonka trucks of my childhood, disposable electronics you hope can outrun the ever-shrinking warranty, and clothes that perhaps last a dozen wash cycles. Not to mention Wal-Mart boots (gift from my mother in the first flush of her working there) which leaked the first time I wore them in the rain and stained my socks and feet berry-red.

    This morning, I got up early for a leisurely internet shopping interval before work, with a big mug of brewed cocoa and the peace of my own living room. It turned into a nightmare when the LL Bean gift card I was using instructed me to scrape off the PIN number… and that also scraped off half the number. So I had to call them.

    And my phone has decided to only work on speakerphone and I had to upgrade it; only the Verizon website kept blanking when I clicked on the Checkout button, and they give you deals online they won’t give you on the phone to drive you to the website. But when the website doesn’t work… they can do very little. I would up on speakphone, online chat, and constant coaching to finally make the purchase I HAD to make to have a working phone.

    They sucked up an hour and a half of my time to make up for their own stupidity. At least I got $20 out of Verizon for my trouble.

  30. 30.

    WereBear

    May 28, 2015 at 10:33 am

    @opiejeanne: Question: While tomatoes are being dumbed down, are the bland commercial varieties losing actual food value?

    That’s a controversial question which they claim does not affect them. But I really don’t think they are being truthful. Part of the punch of produce is those antioxidants. There are many studies which indicate the petro-fertilizers and unripe picking practices do result in a product which has less of what you buy it for:

    It would be overkill to say that the carrot you eat today has very little nutrition in it—especially compared to some of the other less healthy foods you likely also eat—but it is true that fruits and vegetables grown decades ago were much richer in vitamins and minerals than the varieties most of us get today. The main culprit in this disturbing nutritional trend is soil depletion: Modern intensive agricultural methods have stripped increasing amounts of nutrients from the soil in which the food we eat grows. Sadly, each successive generation of fast-growing, pest-resistant carrot is truly less good for you than the one before.

    Dirt Poor: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious?

  31. 31.

    boatboy_srq

    May 28, 2015 at 10:40 am

    @Valdivia: Not only that, but in this case changing your own shopping habits won’t affect what the grocers put on the shelves – because you’re buying power is 1/1,000,000,000 of what the big consumers of said product can wield, so they’re driving what Big Ag grows. Buy all the organic, heirloom, paleo produce you want, and the fugly stuff will still be on the shelves.

  32. 32.

    opiejeanne

    May 28, 2015 at 10:41 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: I used to feel that way when I was a kid, but when I grew up I discovered that my dad was just growing the wrong kind of tomatoes, a very acidic variety, and that I have a mild allergy to tomatoes. I can eat them for about two or three weeks, up to a month when they’re ripe, before the roof of my mouth gets itchy and raw.

    I’m a little confused by the Heirloom designation, since Paul Robeson and Boxcar Willie are very much 20th century figures and yet tomatoes named after them are called heirlooms.

  33. 33.

    Cervantes

    May 28, 2015 at 10:44 am

    @opiejeanne:

    Named after Robeson for its coloring — and by a Russian, naturally.

  34. 34.

    opiejeanne

    May 28, 2015 at 10:51 am

    @WereBear: We live in King County, WA, and our recycling and composting systems have been discussed at length on BJ. Recently we got a card in the mail from the company that picks up our compost (what used to be called garbage) and yard waste, telling us that the stickers on fruit don’t break down in composting and that if we filled up the twenty spaces on the card with stickers they’d give us a free bag of mulch. So we did, and they did, and that stuff was wonderful stuff, like gold. Anaheim, CA used to hand out a half a cubic yard to anyone who wanted it, while they had it each year.
    We were stunned by how reasonable their charges are for compost, garden soil, etc. and will go back this fall to get a yard of compost for the raised beds. Maybe two yards.

  35. 35.

    opiejeanne

    May 28, 2015 at 10:54 am

    @Cervantes: Yes, I got that from the photo of what looks like a beautiful chocolate tomato.
    What I don’t understand is the designation as an heirloom. Is that just a word that’s being thrown around willy-nilly? I mean, Boxcar Willie wasn’t famous until the late 50s. Paul Robeson a bit earlier, mid to late 1920s, but still well into the 20th century.

    And oh, those Russian tomato varieties! We keep eyeing them because of the short growing season.

  36. 36.

    CrustyDem

    May 28, 2015 at 10:54 am

    The flaw here is not in the science done for producing better fruits and vegetables, but the goals. Most modified fruits and vegetables are made to improve storage, size or shelf life, not flavor – and they’ve been successful in this regard. But if you enjoy rice, grapefruit, asian pears and scotch – say thanks to our atomic scientists..

  37. 37.

    Han

    May 28, 2015 at 10:57 am

    @opiejeanne: Paul Robeson is its American name. Presumably it was cultivated much earlier in Russia under a different name. Boxcar Willie referenced railroad hoboes long before Lecil Travis Martin took it as a stage name.

  38. 38.

    opiejeanne

    May 28, 2015 at 11:02 am

    @Cervantes: Found an explanation, here: https://www.tomatofest.com/what-is-heirloom-tomato.html

    The term “Heirloom” applied to plants was apparently first used by Kent Whealy of Seed Savers Exchange, who first used “heirloom” in relation to plants in a speech he gave in Tucson in 1981. He had asked permission to use the term “heirloom” from John Withee, who had used the term on the cover of his bean catalog. John said sure, that he had taken it from Prof. William Hepler at the University of New Hampshire, who first used the term “heirloom” to describe some beans that friends had given him back in the 1940s.”

    So, Boxcar Willie isn’t an heirloom tomato (didn’t exist before the 1940s) unless it’s a newish name applied to an older tomato, which has happened with some of the Russian tomatoes.

  39. 39.

    opiejeanne

    May 28, 2015 at 11:03 am

    @Han: I thought that was the case but my Google skills were lacking in finding any information that pointed that direction. And from what I did find, there are several varieties being sold as Boxcar Willie.

    I have one plant of that. Kind of curious because the reviews are all over the place.

  40. 40.

    David

    May 28, 2015 at 11:10 am

    Aren’t apples the exception? New varieties like Honeycrisp are improvements, aren’t they?

  41. 41.

    qwerty42

    May 28, 2015 at 11:11 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: “Obviously enough, you have never eaten a real tomato. ”
    Of course I have. All sorts. I don’t even waste my time with them in the winter (well, ok, I have weakened occasionally) and asked they not be included on sandwiches as these will almost always be crap. You may like some more than others, that is true, but a ripe tomato is a rare and valued commodity. It usually must be grown, not purchased.

    Some comments on grape/cherry tomatoes: plant one (and only one). I would not use the results for anything when so many other fantastic varieties are coming in, but they ripen nicely and are a great snack when you are working in the garden.

  42. 42.

    opiejeanne

    May 28, 2015 at 11:20 am

    @David: Sort of a mixed bag. Jazz apples are very good, a newish variety. Then there’s what they did to the wonderful Red Delicious by “improving” it. Yes, it’s a gorgeous red apple now but the skin is tough and bitter and the flesh is flavorless. About 20 years ago the state of Washington started cutting down those trees and replanting real apples, including original Red Delicious which aren’t that glorious red but taste like a real apple.

  43. 43.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    May 28, 2015 at 11:28 am

    Heirlooms are of course wonderful and ideal,- and my preference. But I’ve had good results with Randy Gardner of NC State’s Mountain hybrids. I got very good yields and super flavor. FWIW.

  44. 44.

    Cervantes

    May 28, 2015 at 11:29 am

    @Han:

    Paul Robeson is its American name. Presumably it was cultivated much earlier in Russia under a different name.

    No, it was bred by Marina Danilenko, a tomato-grower in Moscow, who named it after Paul Robeson. (You may not be aware that Robeson was highly political and admired world-wide as a result of his advocacy — in conjunction with his voice and his music, of course.)

    Danilenko started selling tomato seeds during the Gorbachev era, when private enterprise came out into the open a little more than previously possible.

    @opiejeanne:

    Found an explanation, here:

    Sure. I figured you’d find that out.

  45. 45.

    Bill Arnold

    May 28, 2015 at 11:31 am

    @opiejeanne:

    The term “Heirloom” applied to plants was apparently first used by Kent Whealy of Seed Savers Exchange, who first used “heirloom” in relation to plants in a speech he gave in Tucson in 1981.

    Interesting (and that is a nice web site). I had always assumed that heirloom meant basically (1) not hybrid, and breeds true (2) off patent. Are there patented heirlooms? (Didn’t see any in a quick search.)

  46. 46.

    JustRuss

    May 28, 2015 at 11:36 am

    I realize corn is not a fruit, but I just bought a dozen ears of some of the best corn I ever had. In May. In Oregon. No way it’s local, it had to travel a hell of a long way. Just saying that sometimes science gets it right.

    Tomatoes, on the other hand, fresh and local or don’t even bother.

  47. 47.

    Tripod

    May 28, 2015 at 11:48 am

    I’d say local growing conditions count for a lot. I’ve never liked Florida commercial ag products. They’re big, water laden, and bland. Ditto for greenhouse tomatoes. They need a bit of drought stress to concentrate flavor.

  48. 48.

    Cervantes

    May 28, 2015 at 11:50 am

    @JustRuss:

    Each kernel of corn is a fruit.

  49. 49.

    Han

    May 28, 2015 at 11:50 am

    @Cervantes: I actually had not heard of Paul Robeson before, sadly. Do you have a link for your Marina Danilenko info? I’m finding nothing other than she was the supplier to a seed exchange, nothing on her developing the variety, or when. Not a big deal if you don’t. It’s just more interesting than settling down and doing something productive…

  50. 50.

    opiejeanne

    May 28, 2015 at 12:16 pm

    @JustRuss: Albertson’s had bicolor corn, ten cents an ear a couple of weeks ago. My husband was floored when he saw the price, obviously a loss leader, and the corn was great. Like you said, no way is that local (Seattle area).

  51. 51.

    opiejeanne

    May 28, 2015 at 12:25 pm

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): We have nine different tomato varieties this year, shorter season types, but this year we are trying Brandywine again. It produced wonderful tomatoes in SoCal but here it can’t seem to set fruit until September because of our cool springs, but this year is much warmer. Trying Mr Stripey here, too.
    The tomato that has performed every year for us is Super Fantastic (that name makes me laugh). It reminds me of the shoe blog run by The Manolo.

  52. 52.

    smintheus

    May 28, 2015 at 12:39 pm

    @David: Some of the newer, tasty apple cultivars are a distinct improvement over the cultivars developed in the mid twentieth century, which were almost uniformly groomed for beauty, size, and storage with taste being sacrificed. But many older apples tend to be even more flavorful than the newest ones, even if they’re harder to grow.

  53. 53.

    jl

    May 28, 2015 at 2:40 pm

    Maybe new trend towards indoor LED lit low water cultivation of tomatoes and other specialty veg crops will solve the problem. Can concentrate on breeding for flavor. If you have plants very close to market grown under tightly controlled conditions, won’t need to breed for ripening at same time, warehouse and shelf life, disease resistance.

    Maybe can do it with berries too?

    Edit: and with probably long term water shortages in California, my state can get out of business of growing sort of crummy produce bred to ship and sit for weeks to markets hundreds and thousands of miles away.

  54. 54.

    smedley the uncertain

    May 28, 2015 at 2:46 pm

    I’m blessed with a local grower of Heirloom tomatoes who also provides the lineage. Many date back to the late 1890’s and the first decade of the 20th century. I have just planted half a dozen of his plants including chocolate peppers. These plants thrive on our side deck in large pots. away from back yard critters who also enjoy tasty tomatoes. And yes I also grow a Czech tomato (Stupic) that has origins in an East German seed bank. So, perhaps not really a Hierloom.
    Slightly acidic but delicious and Early here in WNY .

  55. 55.

    Bob Munck

    May 28, 2015 at 9:16 pm

    we kind of have a crap record when it comes making fruit more awesome.

    One big exception: wine grapes.

  56. 56.

    TomParmenter

    May 28, 2015 at 11:33 pm

    @donnah: There’s been a real upturn in the quality of gigantic supermarket strawberries. A few years back they were literally hollow, but in recent years they’ve gradually filled in with white flesh, increasingly flavorful. I think they have come up a long way.

  57. 57.

    Anne Laurie

    May 29, 2015 at 4:23 am

    @opiejeanne:

    What I don’t understand is the designation as an heirloom. Is that just a word that’s being thrown around willy-nilly?

    In case any readers ever check back: “Heirloom” seems to be the designation for open-pollinated tomatoes, that will breed true from seed. Opposite of the more common hybrid tomatoes — which include most of the ones at the big-box garden centers, as well as the ones on the grocery shelves.

    It’s not necessarily true that “heirlooms” always taste better than hybrids, but their defenders argue that heirlooms have been passed from year to year, gardener to gardener, because they taste good. But they’re not consistent, they tend to be less productive than the hybrid Big Boys and Early Girls. And they aren’t bred for resistance to all the common blights & viruses, so you have to be more careful about cleanliness, and recognize that some plants just won’t work out some years, or in some areas.

  58. 58.

    Doug Wieboldt

    May 30, 2015 at 8:48 pm

    Exactly right. Heirloom tomatoes may look interesting, but they are worth eating. Beefsteak tomatoes have zilch going for them. Except what makes life easier for shipping and selling to suckers.

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