Pausing to recall the right's consoling message to the left after the Bush v Gore SCOTUS decision. pic.twitter.com/cKkOMp6TFP
— Bob Schooley (@Rschooley) June 26, 2015
Respect to Chief Justice Margaret H. Marshall!
Woo-hoo! Love wins!!! #lovewins
— Elizabeth Warren (@SenWarren) June 26, 2015
W/ #SCOTUSMarriage decision we remember that it all began with dedicated families, friends, advocates & activists in Massachusetts #lovewins
— Ed Markey (@SenMarkey) June 26, 2015
Feeling your country bend towards justice is an incredible thing #loveislove #EqualityForAll #SCOTUSMarriage
— Rep. Joe Kennedy III (@RepJoeKennedy) June 26, 2015
Massachusetts – yet again, a trailblazer #lovewins #mapoli #bospoli pic.twitter.com/lGvgEeSEnO
— Mass Political Vault (@MassPoliVault) June 26, 2015
***********
What’s on the agenda as we wrap up a busy, busy, trailblazing week?
Betty Cracker
Breaking news just says one of the escaped murderers was shot by the cops, maybe killed.
Nylund
I keep hearing Sarah Palin’s voice in my head asking me how all that “hopey changey” stuff is working out for me.
And I keep saying to myself, “Pretty well actually, pretty well…”
Socraticsilence
Um… Watch Obama’s eulogy in SC today, it was legitimately one of the most amazing speeches I’ve ever seen.
Iowa Old Lady
@Nylund: What a contrast between Palin and Obama and Biden. And she’s just oblivious to it
Richard mayhew
Just listened to coworker explain how Clinton will only get Dukakis vote share of AA vote while any Republican will up their white vote share to 66% or higher
RSA
“Get over it” isn’t just a generic rightwing message on Bush v. Gore. It’s a direct quote on the topic from… Antonin Scalia.
? Martin
@Richard mayhew: Tell him/her that medicating on the job is generally frowned upon by management.
Germy Shoemangler
Here’s the “loyal opposition”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jejv2Ow5LKg
Notice his upside-down flag.
What gives me hope is the fact that he’s ALL BY HIMSELF and Obama spoke to millions.
Tom Levenson
@Richard mayhew: I hope you told your co-worker to persist in enjoying the carnal knowlege of that barnyard fowl.
? Martin
We still have a few important cases coming up yet. We need Arizona’s independent redistricting to be upheld – our best current avenue against gerrymandering. We need lethal injection to be ended. We also need the EPA to win on air quality regulation. Sounds like all will come down on Monday.
David Koch
jl
Woo hoo! Good week so far for the country and all its citizens.
I heard some cryptic comments by legal commentators on the news, though, that Kennedy’s decision was too vaguely written, something about whether he was deciding on equal protection or due process grounds. I had no clue what they were talking about. I thought: so what? Both are important. But this article helped:
Does the same-sex marriage ruling mean trouble for other LGBT rights cases?
Scott Lemieux, Guardian
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/26/same-sex-marriage-court-cases-lgbt-rights
Any lawyer types here can help out, I will gladly read what they have to type.
But the majority opinion seems much better than the dissents. At least it got to the right conclusion From what I have heard and read today, they were as bad as for the ACA case.
Mike J
@Germy Shoemangler: Imagine, talking about gun violence at a funeral for nine people who were gunned down.
ruemara
@Richard mayhew: So, it was a drinking and meth luncheon, then?
Roy G.
I need a sanity check after all the hyperventilating on the right. Is it correct that this ruling does not force Mike Huckabee’s church, or any other, to perform a same-sex marriage?
trollhattan
When murderous shitheel Roof said he was considering a variety of targets (schools, malls) before “settling for” a docile bible study group, it looks as though he wasn’t kidding.
So he would have been a greater mass murderer, but for lack of funds to buy a better killing machine? What are the thoughts of our friend who asserts lightning and swimming pools kill more people than do assault rifles?
Germy Shoemangler
@Mike J: I watched this joker about three-quarters of the way through before turning it off. What I found interesting is that right off the bat he admits he didn’t watch the entire eulogy, just a few minutes of it.
But he feels qualified to comment on it.
bystander
Sean Conroy, first out gay player in the minors, threw a shutout yesterday on Pride Night for the Sonoma Stompers. Talk about prescient.
jl
@Roy G.: That is my understanding. Huckabee does not have to perform a religious marriage service for a gay or lesbian couple, his church does not have to recognize a gay or lesbian couple as married.
But, IANAL.
However, seems to me from what I heard and read in news today, a lot of people, including public officials, are very confused about the difference between marriage as a civil contract, and marriage as a religious sacrament, or institution, or whatever…
If I’m wrong, I beg the BJ legal flying wedge to set me straight. Please.
Mike J
@David Koch: Those were from him POTUS account. The OFA account had these:
NonyNony
@Roy G.:
Of course it doesn’t. You’ll see a ruling forcing Catholic churches to perform marriage ceremonies for divorcees before you see a ruling forcing any church to perform a gay marriage.
Iowa Old Lady
@jl: That would be consistent with, for instance, the Catholic church’s right not to marry divorced people and not to see their marriages as valid.
ETA: For that matter, the Catholic church requires people to go through some sort of marriage class before they perform the ceremony. At least, they did I was around.
FlipYrWhig
@Roy G.: IANAL but churches keep getting to do whatever the hell they want — as far as the law is concerned, the wedding ceremony is ancillary to the status of marriage recognized by the government. They’re just trying to stir up the rubes with the specter of a “public accommodation” sort of case that makes clergy and/or churches participate in things against their will. But churches aren’t lunch counters. They don’t have to be open to all.
ETA: It’s also a similar argument to when they make people worry that preachers will be prosecuted for hate speech if they say anti-gay things from the pulpit. Has never happened, would never happen, but those slopes don’t slippery themselves.
Mike J
@Roy G.:
The Catholic church does not recognize divorce, and will not marry anybody who has been divorced. I’ve never heard of any law suits or any government action to change that.
I can’t see how this would be any different.
jl
Speaking of Huckabee, interesting that to be a GOP presidential candidate, you have to talk in a way that makes the mayor of Charleston SC sound like a committed lefty gun control maniac liberal (which maybe he is, but seems unlikely).
Charleston Mayor’s reaction to Huckabee’s claim that concealed carry would have prevented the SC mass murder.
Charleston Mayor: Huckabee’s Ideas On Guns ‘So Nutty I Can’t Even Talk’
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/joseph-riley-mike-huckabee-charleston-guns
Story has a link to a radio interview with the mayor, who has a gift for talk. Fun to listen to.
Helen
@Roy G.: The court addressed it at the end of the ruling stating that they uphold religious organizations’ first amendment rights. They do not have to perform same sex marriages.
Roy G.
Thanks for the responses; I always believed this to be the case, and that the bigots were trying to confuse the difference between a civil service marriage and a church wedding. I guess they’ve succeeded in muddying the waters so much that they themselves don’t know the difference.
Although I must admit the thought of Huckabee being forced to marry a same-sex couple is hilarious.
piratedan
@? Martin: damn straight, the redistricting commission was voter approved, mandated that the commission be independent and non-partisan in redrawing the congressional districts for the state of Arizona. It passed solidly and the Governor Brewer tried to get the independent head of the commission kicked off/impeached/removed/reprimanded because the districts drawn didn;t give the GOP an advantage. It had nothing to do with the state legislative districts (which are indeed gerrymandered all to hell), only the districts that made up the congressional districts, which in the end crafted three districts that are more or less “fair”.
The state GOP is suing to be able to have the right to rig Congressional districts and with this partisan bunch, it will be very interesting to see which way this goes, if they will overturn the mandate of the people in expressed statewide referendum regarding fairness or indicating that if you get control, you can deal with the state as you wish come census time.
jl
@Roy G.: It’s not just the civil ‘service marriage’, maybe you meant ‘civil marriage service’. Many of these issues are not about the service or the certificate or name of the institution themselves, but the civil contract that goes with the service.
If I understand correctly the specific case in front of STOTUS was the rights of a male spouse when his partner died, IIRC the spouse was not allowed to record on the death certificate that the deceased was married and he was the spouse.
And things like eligibility for insurance coverage, death benefits, ability to communicate with and help make decisions with spouse of hospitalized, etc.
So, there are real issues here that make a big difference to people.
TheMightyTrowel
Related to this post at least tangentially and also, in this Ooxford grad and former Dedham resident’s opinion, part off the week’s glut of good news: Masshole has been added to the OED.
David Koch
craigie
I believe Mr Huckabee will be allowed to remain married to his current wife.
jl
@piratedan: I agree. That case is just as important as the others. I did not even realize it had gotten to the Supreme Court, until news started discussing cases to be handed down a few weeks ago. I thought those suits were almost as ridiculous as the ACA case and were stopped in lower courts.
trollhattan
@Mike J: Every Catholic I’ve known who got remarried by the church had to go to a bishop to get their prior marriage annulled. Some kind of “do-overs” system, as best as I can tell.
David Koch
FlipYrWhig
@Roy G.: I think they do know the difference (between marriages and weddings), but they’re excitedly imagining a dystopian future where “religious liberty” has been dispelled and The State has completed its intrusion into matters of faith. The fact that nothing like this has ever happened is just more proof that one day it may if true believers don’t remain vigilant. Like with the confiscation of guns.
Michael Bersin
A little under an hour after this morning’s marriage equality ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court I stopped by the courthouse in Warrensburg, Missouri to speak with Jan Jones, Johnson County Recorder of Deeds about the immediate impact of the ruling. Marriage licenses are issued by county recorders. As we were waiting to speak with the recorder a patron entered the office to inquire about getting a marriage license:
Conversations like this are taking place today in courthouses across Missouri and America
A few hours later the Recorder issued the first marriage license to a same sex couple in Johnson County, Missouri.
They anticipated the court ruling and modified their software to allow two individuals of the same gender to be entered on the marriage license.
raven
@FlipYrWhig: Who you calling a slope, roundeye!
trollhattan
@David Koch:
Am okay with this outcome. Dude was murderous scum who enjoyed torturing his victims. I hope he yelled, “You’ll never take me alive, copper!”
The hell was that prison worker lady thinking?
Roger Moore
@ruemara:
Nope. Anthrax and tire rims.
Major Major Major Major
Steeling myself for the total clusterfuck that is going to be San Francisco Pride this weekend.
the Conster
From Pete Souza’s twitter feed: the moment POTUS learns the ACA is upheld
Not quite a victory lap, but it does say “I’ve got this”.
Read about the clock!!!
? Martin
And remember we still have a World Cup match this evening. Gonna be juggling that and Maddow.
FlipYrWhig
@raven: WOOPS
trollhattan
@Michael Bersin:
Can there be any doubt Fox News has reporters fanning out across the country, looking for beleaguered, indignant country recorders who are going to “Quit my jerb, goshdarnit!” rather than surrender to the oppressive ghey hordes? I can’t wait for the “Special Fox Report: Local gummint under assault”
raven
@FlipYrWhig: :)
piratedan
@trollhattan: she was “in love”, not saying that we can’t be self delusional from time to time when you get hit with a dose of attracted pheromones, but yes, I would say that her judgement was impaired.
Elmo
Still can’t quite get my head around it. We could move to any state in the union, and our Maryland marriage would be entitled to full faith and credit.
This isn’t an academic thought. My wife has health issues, and even if we were in another state on vacation – say to a Florida beach – there’s always the concern that she might need medical treatment. And then who am I? Can I make those arrangements? Would I need to get her daughter’s help from Oregon, or God forbid her mother with dementia who hates me?
And all that’s gone. Gone. We’re married everywhere.
gogol's wife
@trollhattan:
I believe the exact quotation is “Top of the world, Ma!”
David Koch
@the Conster: that’s a great photo essay. thanks for posting.
Pete Souza has an incredible job.
Stella B
Our neighbor’s daughter and daughter-in-law are visiting their parents this week. We’re keeping our doors locked so that they can’t come over and damage our marriage.
gogol's wife
@the Conster:
Cool!
gogol's wife
@Elmo:
So nice.
? Martin
@Major Major Major Major: Indeed. Tourists should make sure to add Christopher St to their NYC tours this weekend. I imagine you will be hard pressed to find a more joyous group of New Yorkers at any other time.
Gimlet
Presidential hopeful Donald Trump has refused to release his long-form birth certificate and passport records.
The Guardian contacted the Trump campaign to request the birth certificate and passport records of the Apprentice host, but a spokeswoman refused to share the documents.
David Koch
France shoots GOAL; 1- nil; 66 minute mark
maya
@trollhattan:
Ted Kennedy received one of them Bishop’s blessing, I do believe. It has far more to do with status and wealth than anything else with the RC Church. Money talks, down the aisle you rewalks.
trollhattan
@gogol’s wife:
Perfect. “Made it!”
raven
@David Koch: Soccer THREAD!
LWA
@Roy G.: Even more hilarious would be to force Santorum to marry John and Lily Cole.
It would make a fortune on pay per view, I tells ya.
Thoughtcrime
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P33Yji9X5VE
jl
@Elmo:
” We’re married everywhere. ”
My sincere congratulations. Just remember that if you come out to California, it is no longer part of the American West. Scalia made that determination in his dissent today.
I’m not sure what region California is any more. Maybe Scalia sent my state to Hell in revenge for, supposedly, starting the last big legal push when Gavin Newsom decided to marry whoever should and wanted to be married a decade ago in San Francisco (aka Deviltown).
So, Scalia banished my state. It’s personal now. I hate his guts.
Germy Shoemangler
@Gimlet: Trump – “Once again the Bush appointed Supreme Court Justice John Roberts has let us down. Jeb pushed him hard! Remember!”
Trump is such an ass that he doesn’t even know that Roberts voted against not for.
raven
@jl: Oh, like he was different before?
trollhattan
@jl:
Guess we’re either “The westest” or Westeros. Although Hawaii will be pissed if we’re Westest.
? Martin
@Elmo:
Not just everywhere, but recognized by (almost) everyone.
Adoption bans need to go next. All kids raised by gay parents need to know where they stand in the law. But everything should fall easily after this. Their arguments are now all played out.
jl
@Germy Shoemangler: Trump will do great in the GOP debates. His grasp of the facts is about the same as Jeb!’s if recent history is any guide.
@raven: Your state will be bad someday and Scalia will banish it too. Then let’s see how you feel.
Elmo
@jl: you’re honorary New Engalnders, but with fewer trees and better skiing.
wrb
So who is giving the rebuttal to the eulogy?
Baud
My cell phone manufacturer supports marriage equality.
I am pleased.
Germy Shoemangler
Saw an amusing graphic: A new map of the United States showing where same-sex marriage is legal
Everywhere.
raven
@jl: Sheeeet, I moved to LA in 1957!
Germy Shoemangler
@wrb: this guy
raven
@Germy Shoemangler: The upside down flag indicates distress.
jl
@raven: I thought you lived in Georgia or NC or some similar quaint ye olde tymey state back east, and that you hated California too (like Scalia, except you had better reasons).
But there has been enough sectional discord and discussion this week. This is a very good day, as was ACA ruling day (Tuesday, right? Been so long).
Now time for me to devote some pointless worry about upcoming redistricting and EPA decisions.
Roger Moore
@jl:
We’re either West Coast or Pacific Rim, depending on who you listen to. And Scalia can go fuck himself.
raven
@jl: I’ve lived in Georgia for 30 years. I don’t had California. I wouldn’t live there but the whole rest of my family does.
NotMax
@trollhattan
Damn straight it will. :)
Major Major Major Major
@Roger Moore: I wouldn’t wish being fucked by Scalia on my worst enemy…
raven
@NotMax: Back already?
ThresherK
Making chocolate-chip and bacon cookies. Swimming at the pool if it doesn’t rain.
NotMax
@raven
Just catching up on an unread thread afore headin’ out. Takes a bit longer to accomplish the toilette than when in my salad days. :)
NonyNony
@maya:
Yup – annulment is mostly for rich folk that can “convince” a bishop that their marriage shouldn’t count. It’s occasionally allowed for peons as well, but I suspect that’s mostly to keep up appearances that the whole “annulment” thing isn’t just about making money.
raven
These folks were the 1st same sex marriage in Athens. . .in the Veterans Memorial Plaza!
Baud
Via Reddit, neat map on the progress of marriage equality.
http://i.imgur.com/0jpgH3d.gifv
raven
@NotMax: Dang
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Roy G.:
One weird thing that really cemented my support for gay marriage was getting hetero married myself and realizing how much paperwork it involved. Maybe some people’s idea of Heaven is standing in line at the county clerk’s office to get a license, but it ain’t mine.
And then, after we turned in our paperwork with the (UU) minister’s signature on it, our official marriage certificate was printed on the same paper as my car title. Which, again, did not say “religious experience” to either one of us.
wrb
At least now Scalia and Thomas can have their love that could not be named consecrated.
Baud
@raven:
Dallas
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2015/06/26/gay-couple-together-nearly-55-years-1st-to-marry-in-dallas-county/
NotMax
@raven
Don’t wanna scare any kiddies out there.
Just unnerving them will suffice. :)
jl
Conservative commenter on Fox moved to tears by sight of people celebrating marriage decision and begs GOP to walk back from the edge of the abyss. Sorry, I do not think they will do that.
Conservative Pundit Starts Crying At Gay Marriage Footage: ‘They’re Patriots’ (VIDEO)
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/se-cupp-gay-marriage-scotus-conservative-cry
I heard some news pundit talky heads saying the ACA and marriage decisions were ‘good for the Republican party’ because they took these issues off the table. Well, maybe if the GOP still had a quorum of sane people, but I do not think that is the case.
I think it could be very bad for the GOP because it will give them an excuse to sit there obsessing over reactionary obstructionism and acting-out over these court decisions. And that will hurt them. Because the ACA works, and except for a few sex-obsessed nutcases, the vast majority of people will be fine with gay and lesbian marriage, since in and of itself, it really doesn’t concern anyone except the two people what kind of civil legal arrangement they want, does it. I think at least a third of those currently opposed will start wondering what all the fuss was about very quickly. And they will arrive at the correct answer: it was a fuss over nothing.
So, these decisions could be a dangerous trap for the GOP, and I hope that they fall into it. They really don’t have any honest proposals at all for anything important to the ‘lesser’ people, and it has been so long since they have produced an honest policy proposal for anything, not clear to me they even know how to produce one at this point. I hope they use the events of this week to dig that hole quite a bit deeper.
And they probably will, the party has become addicted to engaging in political performance art in front of their political base and telling themselves that they are doing something besides acting out like a maladjusted tweener.
Mike J
@trollhattan:
Alaska will be more pissed, since it extends further west than Hawaii.
gelfling545
DC Gay Men’s Chorus response to ruling. Today is turning out to be a very emotional day.
raven
@Baud: OMG, the end of the woild
jl
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
” our official marriage certificate was printed on the same paper as my car title. ”
Some states have some pretty damn fancy looking car title papers. I don’t see what you are complaining about.
raven
@gelfling545: Awesome!
the Conster
@Baud: @raven:
Happy people everywhere all smiles in every picture. There could never be anything wrong with that. Shame on the haters. Mean people suck.
raven
@jl: After 20 years you only need a hand written bill o’ sale in Georgia!
raven
@the Conster: No shit, I was in the rear with the gear but if I’d been a grunt this is what I would have been fighting for!
Mike J
@raven:
Does her father hand write it?
dedc79
Freddie DeBoer, attention-whore:
jl
@raven: I wonder what Ben Franklin’s marriage certificate looked like. Did he scrawl out a note that said “Me and my main squeeze Debbie are shacking up now.”?
NonyNony
@jl:
Somebody had a roundup of GOP Presidential candidate reactions to today’s ruling. I found this story at NBC when I went looking for it, and it plays out pretty predictably. Let’s just say that the nuttiest of the nutters aren’t going to let Jeb Bush leave this hand grenade unexploded.
Scott Walker, who some people think has brilliant presidential campaigning skills, is calling for a Constitutional amendment denying gay people the right to marry. So, yeah – this is actually going to put it right up there with “repealing Obamacare” as something that every candidate is going to have to swear they’re going to do to win the primary this cycle I suspect.
KG
@jl:
Fuck it, we’ve always been our own region. there’s the Pacific Northwest, the Southwest, the Mountain West, and California.
raven
@jl: Proly carved it on a stump!
PurpleGirl
@? Martin: You know that the Stonewall Inn was granted Landmark Preservation status this past week. It was already on a federal list of historic places and is in a historic district, but this new status protects the building even more from being changed.
RSR
Yo, Adrian! We did it!
raven
@RSR: Cuff and Link!
jl
@dedc79: It’s creepy. Those reactionaries are really obsessed with group marriage, marriage between adults and kids, and bestiality, aren’t they?
I don’t see how arguments for same-sex marriage based on equal protection of the laws, and due process can apply to group marriages under our legal system, and animals can’t give informed consent.
But, I read that a Swedish company claims to have invented a way to communicate basic drives and desires of dogs, so maybe we should be afraid of what’s to come.
Keith G
Just finished watching The Eulogy.
Yup, dust off a space on the shelf of greatest American speeches. I think this was Obama’s best – it’s structure, it’s message, it’s specificity, and it’s grounding in it’s place and time.
The pivot line, “Oh…. but God works in mysterious ways” had this old atheist standing at my desk cheering, clapping and crying. Brilliantly written, brilliantly given.
I just hope this is a marker for things to come.
raven
@jl: I gotta way, pick up this tennis ball!
Mike J
(seen on twitter)
“Because of gay marriage I’m moving to Canada.”
“Try again.”
“Mexico?”
“Nope.”
“New Zealand?”
“Wrong.”
“Iran?”
“Yes. You’ll fit right in.”
jl
@raven: “Well, your honor, whenever I go over to their house, Fido humps my leg! What more evidence do you need?” Naw, I don’t think that will fly. Somebody tell DeBoer not to worry.
NonyNony
@dedc79:
Who is more concern trolly than Freddie deBoer? None. None is more concern trolly than Freddie.
(The question of polyamorous relationships and their recognition by the government might be an interesting one, but not in the way that the folks who bring it up as a “gotcha” think it is. A two-person contract is very different from a multi-person contract, and the marriage contract is currently all about the rights and responsibilities of two individuals toward each other, toward society, and from society towards them. Some of that would extend to a hypothetical recognition of a polyamorous marriage but a whole lot of it would be nonsensical outside of the parameters of a legal contract between two people. People who blather on like Freddie here concern trolling about this either haven’t thought too deeply about what they’re talking about or have little to no knowledge about either polyamorous relationships or modern marriage or both.)
KG
just getting around to looking at the opinions… Kennedy cites Confucius and Cicero on the nature of marriage. I have to believe that is a shot at the “GOD CREATED MARRIAGE IN THE BIBLE” crowd. I like that.
jl
@Mike J: But IIRC the government will help out with your sex change operation in Iran.
There…. is… no… escape.
Gohmert is warning of Divine judgment, fire and brimstone, and Westborough Baptist is eagerly awaiting second coming. So, we will see.
Gimlet
Donald Trump has banned any employee of Univision from stepping foot on one of his properties after the Spanish-language network cancelled the Miss USA telecast.
raven
@jl: My BIL has a Bulldog named Popeye and he grabs your leg and goes to town. I have punched that dog between the eyes as hard as I can and all he does is shake his head and snort.The only thing that works is a spray bottle.
dedc79
@jl: They sure are. Look at Fox. Look at National Review. Politico probably had to go trolling to find someone to write this thing, and they found Freddie, who was apparently ready and willing to play ball.
raven
@jl: Should I start drinking again?
Iowa Old Lady
@KG:
If God created marriage in the Old Testament, he created a whole lot of polygamy.
jl
@NonyNony: And funny that the group that would probably be most interested in reviving polygamous (thought not polyandrous or with multiple men and women) marriages would be Mormons. Some are still doing it the old way out in the Utah deserts and mountains I understand.
GOP should get with it and do something for a very loyal GOP group, seems to me.
srv
It’s time for really big ideas:
Germy Shoemangler
@dedc79: I’m relatively new here. Wasn’t he a front pager at one time? What happened?
Tree With Water
Mike Huckabee says: “I will not acquiesce to an imperial court any more than our Founders acquiesced to an imperial British monarch. We must resist and reject judicial tyranny, not retreat.”
Which reminds me of the actor Paul Ford in the movie The Russians Are Coming. Having whipped a crowd into a panic, someone shouts out to him, “You lead us, Kendall, you’ve got the sword”. Ford was carrying his great grandfather’s revolutionary sword in the scene, you see.
raven
@jl: In the mountains, in the valley’s in the ocean. . .
The Golux
The last two days have been truly amazing, and all things that give Nino Scalia a sad make doves take flight in my psyche, but (this being an open thread) here is the really important question:
If I have a bunch of stuff queued up in my Amazon shopping cart, and I click on the “Shop to Support This Site” link, does BJ get credit for everything in the cart?
Front pagers, take note!
dedc79
@NonyNony: Hey but Freddie’s already considered that argument and deemed it “flimsy” so case closed.
raven
@Tree With Water: God that was a funny movie. Winters is awesome.
Keith G
Cute pic from @POTUS. He and Michelle on A F One flying home, I bet
Mandalay
@jl:
Even among the cesspool of rightwing pundits I had found SE Cupp especially obnoxious – shallow, way out of her depth, and focused on advancing herself above all else; a slightly less odious version of Malkin.
But to be fair to her, she is truly not jumping on the badwagon today – she has been a strong and vocal supporter of gay marriage for years, so good for her. All of which begs the question: how the hell can she claim to “deeply, deeply love” the Republican Party?
Felonius Monk
@gogol’s wife: You been watching too many Jimmy Cagney movies, huh.
gogol's wife
@gelfling545:
I can’t stop crying.
KG
@NonyNony: i think the furthest the polyamorous crowd will get will be reversing laws that make multiple marriages a crime. there’s some precedent that can be used to argue that people have an inherent right to organize their familial relations as they see fit (though those cases involved things like local ordinances that specifically defined families in ways that wouldn’t allow a grandchild to live with a grandparent or a niece/nephew to live with an aunt/uncle). but you’re right in that the nature of the legal rights and responsibilities of the married couple would become vastly more complicated if opened to multiple partners. things like intestate succession would become a nightmare, as would the ability of courts to attach marital property to satisfy judgments – just for two examples off the top of my head.
Baud
Newsmax currently has zero headlines on the marriage equality decision.
gogol's wife
@Felonius Monk:
Always.
dedc79
@Germy Shoemangler: He posted here for awhile. I can’t recall the details (other more regular readers/commenters are probably better suited to answer this), but I think he didn’t like the pushback he got in the comments and ran away. At some point he started talking sh** about this blog at other venues, I think maybe while he was still writing here.
SiubhanDuinne
@Roy G.:
I have no idea if this is still true, or in what countries, but I vividly remember obsessively following every detail of Grace Kelly’s wedding to Prince Rainier in 1956, and one of the things they did was have a separate civil ceremony — mandated in Monegasque law — the day before the big church wedding. The Pope himself couldn’t have performed the nuptial Mass in the cathedral if the couple had not previously been married by the state. It was the first I had ever heard of “two” weddings, but I later learned that it was true not only of Monaco but quite a few other countries as well. There was no legal requirement to have a religious ceremony, but there was a requirement to have the civil ceremony regardless of any further church sacraments.
Mike J
@Germy Shoemangler:
He was mocked every time he posted something stupid. He didn’t like people disagreeing with him, so he took his ball and went home.
Phylllis
@Keith G: Yep, this atheist stood up in her living room and sang Amazing Grace along with the Reverend President.
Iowa Old Lady
@NonyNony: When I heard Alito’s question about 4 lawyers marrying one another, I had this horrible picture of what the pre-nup negoations would be like.
Roger Moore
@jl:
The same way Roe v. Wade ended abortion as an issue.
Keith G
@Keith G: I needed to correct a link issue, but FYWP would not let me.
So here
dedc79
@KG: There’s also the basic question of whether such relationships are inherently inequitable for one, if not more parties. If so, the government can state a case for having an interest in refusing to recognize/condone such relationships.
? Martin
Well, Freddie is not wrong on this one. Many prominent lawyers are noting that Kennedy left that door wide open. If dignity is the standard, what about the dignity of three consenting adults? Why should that be treated any differently if we’ve taken procreation and the Bible out of the calculation? And I can’t really say that I’ve heard any more convincing argument against polyamory/polygamy than has been leveled against gay marriage. Ultimately they seem to all devolve into ‘something something Mormons and they’re creepy’ – which doesn’t seem like a winning argument to me.
Put another way, I fully expect you’ll start see that working its way up through the courts. My guess is it won’t come out of the Mormon community at all but out of the U/U community. There’s a reasonably sizable polyamory community and they’ve been relatively quiet out of fear of undermining the gay marriage cause, but with this out of the way, they’ll almost certainly start raising their voices.
Germy Shoemangler
@Mandalay: did you see the face she made when she said she deeply loves the republican party?
Her expression whispered “no i don’t!”
I think the RW schtick was a career move. Talk their line of bullshit and watch the $$ roll in. Performance art. But the vomit rises up her throat a little more each day.
There’s a college radio station in my town (several, actually) and now and then I’d hear young men and ladies host conservative shows and parrot the foxx newz line. It was obvious their ambition was to be another Anne Coulter. I wanted to prank them so bad. Call up and tell them I was a talent spotter employed by Roger Ailes, and that I was deeply impressed with their potential.
KG
@dedc79: yeah, that was actually one of the chief arguments regarding banning polygamy when Utah was seeking statehood.
David Koch
SiubhanDuinne
@trollhattan:
Your first mistake, I have found it.
Steeplejack (phone)
@jl:
Ecotopia.
FlipYrWhig
@dedc79:
I think that was E.D. Kain.
What happened to Freddie? He’s a whiny, self-important, long-winded, self-congratulatory douchewad with nothing to say about anything. He was born that way. He brought his fool self here, then he limped away when we didn’t acknowledge his genius. He wears out his welcome everywhere. Extending him a welcome in the first place is always a mistake. He’s awful and I regret that I know who he is.
Pogonip
@maya: No, pretty much anyone who has $250 can get an annulment. Although if I wanted to remarry I would probably just have it performed by a Protestant since the Church says Protestant marriages are licit and valid (see EWTN.com for definitions of “licit” and “valid”) and put the $250 towards the cost of the state’s marriage license or the reception or whatever.
Roger Moore
@Germy Shoemangler:
We read what he had to say and commented on it. He didn’t like that last bit, no he did not.
SiubhanDuinne
@the Conster:
That anecdote about the clock is cool! And the photos are wonderful!!
gf120581
@David Koch: God approves.
Don’t tell Huckabee. His head might go all “Scanners.”
On second thought, do it. ;-)
Ruckus
@Iowa Old Lady:
Does not sound very romantic. Pre nubs in of themselves don’t either but 4 lawyers…… shudder
Gimlet
Rep. Louie Gohmert, R-Texas, reacted with guns blzaing, calling the ruling a “civilization-changing decision that destroys our nation’s heritage of Biblical marriage. May God forgive our Supreme Court majority for its
arrogance and its self-apotheosis.”
…He further warned, “[I]f Moses, Jesus, and contributors to the Bible
were correct, God’s hand of protection will be withdrawn as future
actions from external and internal forces will soon make clear. I will
do all I can to prevent such harm, but I am gravely fearful that the
stage has now been set.”
? Martin
@dedc79: I think that only holds up under the traditional Mormon notion of a man having multiple wives. What of a case of a woman with multiple husbands, or two men and two women? They’ll argue it’s no different than a marriage + open relationship. There will also be cases where the children are distributed among the couples, and so the stability of the family unit comes into play.
It will be interesting to see if/how it plays out. But Kennedy seems to have done nothing to head it off.
FlipYrWhig
@? Martin:
So take it to court. If it’s found legal, good on them. Is there some critical mass of liberals who’d cry out against it if it came to pass? I know I would care not one bit.
Roy G.
@Siubhan interesting – and bonus points for the ‘Monegasque’ reference!
Germy Shoemangler
@Gimlet:
When the effects of global warming get nastier than they are now, he can point to this decision, rather than anything the fossil fuel industry did.
Brilliant!
SiubhanDuinne
@Elmo:
Every time I’ve seen one of your posts today, I’ve teared up with joy. Just so very happy for you and the millions of other couples whose freedom to travel and relocate and make medical decisions and adopt and and and … is guaranteed as the law of the land.
Tree With Water
We’re all having a better day than this guy. The NY Times is reporting:
“..There was a report of a second episode of gunfire as officers pursued David Sweat, the other inmate. The officers did not see Mr. Sweat, but they heard him running. His whereabouts was unclear…
..“They don’t have eyes on the guy, but they have a three-mile perimeter around the area,” the third person with knowledge of the situation said…
..Shortly after 5 p.m., a dozen state troopers with firearms stood 50 feet apart along Fayette Road near Route 30, just north of Lake Titus near Malone. They stared intently into the woods flanking the dirt road on the south, guns drawn. “The dogs are out,” one trooper said”.
the Conster
@dedc79:
I fucking hate that argument for a variety of reasons, one of which is polyandry is never mentioned. Wait until a white woman petitions the court to marry 5 black guys. Conservatives would drop that argument so fast it could generate electricity.
PurpleGirl
@srv: Ghod, the ignorance of this man. The Constitution established a tri-partite government. The Supreme Court is part of that structure. He just keeps insisteing on showing/telling us how ignorant he is. And he was a Rhodes Scholar? Gotta question the criteria used to appoint him.
Germy Shoemangler
@Tree With Water: Who will play David Sweat in the tv movie?
the Conster
@SiubhanDuinne:
Pete has spent so much time with the president that he knows what he’s thinking – he anticipates everything and is always ready. His explanation of what’s going in Obama’s head matches up with his eyes- no self consciousness about the camera watching, you just see the wheels turn. It’s a remarkable job.
fuckwit
Is there a link to a youtube of the whole speech? I found only a short clip.
jl
@PurpleGirl: I hope the GOP freakout continues until September 2016.
I don’t think that they have really understood that Obama is not running again and will soon rest on his laurels as one of our more competent and important presidents.
Now they have to work out ACA and marriage decisions.
And next week I hope they have to work out redistricting and EPA decisions. i hope it will all be too much for them to process.
Baud
@Gimlet:
God gave us Gohmert. I think we can safely assume his hand of protection fully withdrawn.
? Martin
@FlipYrWhig: Oh, I agree. I don’t have any particular objection other than it’s different and I carry my biases into the topic like everyone else. My only point was that we can’t claim that this ruling doesn’t open the door to it, because, well, it might. We’ll see.
Of course, that it’s lumped in with bestiality shows that conservatives have absolutely no concept of ‘consent’.
SiubhanDuinne
@David Koch:
He both has an incredible job and does an incredible job. I know he’s been enormously generous with making photos available to the public, but I kind of hope he’s held back some of the best ones so he can do a really kapow book or long photo essay on the Obama presidency once they are out of office. Maybe a companion piece to Barack’s and Michelle’s tell-all memoirs :-)
Germy Shoemangler
@fuckwit: whitehouse.gov
Mike J
@fuckwit: whitehouse.gov links to youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNcGW2LYtvg&t=82m12s
? Martin
@jl: Hey, Supreme Court Justice Obama. Treasury Secretary Warren. I want her name on my money.
There’s plenty to keep the GOP freakout going.
fuckwit
@craigie: He will also be allowed to continue fucking chickens on the side as well.
Comrade Luke
So what happens now that the social justice constituency has most of the they’ve ever wanted? How many will decide the only remaining things they care about are lower taxes and blowing $hit up?
Tree With Water
@Germy Shoemangler: David Spade. All he’d have to do is dye his hair red.
fuckwit
@Mike J: Awesome, thanks.
SiubhanDuinne
@wrb:
Even when I type “LOL,” I generally don’t mean it literally. But this time, it is the simple truth. Nicely done.
Mike J
@fuckwit: And thank god comments are disabled. I do not want to read youtube comments for a funeral.
PurpleGirl
@SiubhanDuinne: When Prince Charles married Camilla, the marriage was a civil service at their local registry (partly because of the divorce thing) but also because that’s how it’s done in the UK. There was a follow-up blessing ceremony at a church (Westminster Abbey, IIRC) but not a wedding ceremony because of the divorce thing.
Germy Shoemangler
@Tree With Water: You’re right! The smirk is the same!
He did a sequel to Joe Dirt. Not sure why.
fuckwit
@Gimlet: Too late Louie, that hand of protection got withdrawn a long time ago once we started pumping carbon into the atmosphere.
SiubhanDuinne
@ThresherK:
The hell you say.
bemused
@gelfling545:
Immediate goosebumps.
trollhattan
Finally took time to watch the president’s entire eulogy and must agree, it was heartfelt and brilliantly constructed in both its praise of the man and in framing both what led to the murders and what we can and must do about them. More than that was how he bloomed in the church–this was a speech unlike anything I’ve seen since his ’08 campaign. Garry Wills should begin the book this weekend.
Held it together right until he hugged those two poor tiny girls. My God.
Elizabelle
DVR alert: C-Span 1 will broadcast President Obama’s eulogy (and singing) at 6:50 p Eastern.
Set your recorders. Was so good, I shall watch it again.
the Conster
@Comrade Luke:
All day long I’ve thought that the only downside to today is that I’m worried white gay men will now become complacent about their rights, and start voting Republican because money. They’re a natural constituency and if the GOP fails to change to accommodate them, they’re as fucking stupid as we think they are.
Gimlet
The Vatican signed its first treaty with the “State of Palestine” on Friday, calling for “courageous decisions” to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and backing a two-state solution.
The treaty, which made official the Vatican’s de facto recognition of Palestine since 2012, angered Israel, which called it “a hasty step (that) damages the prospects for advancing a peace agreement”.
Israel also said it could have implications on its future diplomatic relations with the Vatican.
The accord, which concerns the Catholic Church’s activities in areas controlled by the Palestinian Authority, also confirmed the Vatican’s increasingly proactive role in foreign policy under Pope Francis. Last year, it brokered the historic resumption of ties between the United States and Cuba.
opiejeanne
@Germy Shoemangler: I have never heard it pronounced “OO-luh-gee” before. I couldn’t watch much of it.
PurpleGirl
@Gimlet: Another of the ignorant ones… The Old Testament is full — chuck full — of polygamous marriages, arranged marriages, rules for divorce, lots of things I doubt this ignorant POS doesnit know or realize or understand. How do these people manage to live to any age?
fuckwit
@jl: Just don’t let Santorum near yours. MAN ON DOG!! MAN ON DOG!!!
Baud
We could use a new gloating thread.
dr. luba
@Germy Shoemangler: These people are crazy. A comment on that video:
“Was that a closed casket with all the flowers on it in front of the pulpit ? An empty closed casket ?”
False flag? Charleston truthers?
SiubhanDuinne
@Keith G:
@Phylllis:
I was in my car listening to it on SiriusXM (MSNBC) and I’ve gotta tell you, he damn near made a believer out of me. And although I was driving and strapped in, I also sang along. And cried.
WereBear
@Elmo: That’s lovely.
Write the Presudent. I bet he’d love to hear it.
jl
@? Martin: As I noted in comment at the top of the thread, there were complaints that Kennedy’s opinion was too long on inspirational phrasing and short on precise legal logic, and was vague in some places that might cause problems very soon. Like, for states that want to hold up implementation, does rational consideration or compelling state interest test apply (I may have gotten the lingo wrong, IANAL).
So, I think we need to distinguish between where the logic of this particular majority opinion leads (maybe not much further than this case because ‘too vague’) and where the underlying legal reasoning leads for all these supposed dangerous shores come in view (and I do not think that they will, BTW).
Edit: and I could get behind a Justice Obama, if he wants the job. There may be complications when he hears cases involving President Michelle. Will he have to recuse himself? Well, cross that bridge when we need to.
Ruckus
@dr. luba:
Some people will look for any excuse to keep their hate on. I have no idea why except that it’s possible that the constant smell of waste from having their heads planted firmly up their……..
Jeffro
@Phylllis: Seconded, was tearing up too…
notoriousJRT
@Elmo:
That is as it should be. Congrats!
germy shoemangler
@dr. luba: I stumbled on the video while looking for the eulogy. I feel bad that I raised his click count. He is shit. After leaving him, I watched Obama’s eulogy. I’m an atheist, but I got tears in my eyes.
SiubhanDuinne
@Roy G.:
Oh, thanks! One gets few opportunities to use that particular demonym :-)
SiubhanDuinne
@the Conster:
Yes, I agree. It’s true artistry, which goes beyond beyond a very skilled technician.
Comrade Luke
@the Conster: This is my fear as well. The Democratic party has done very little to differentiate themselves outside of social issues, and the social justice constituency has been an easy voting block to take for granted. It’s a highly organized group, and I’ve often wondered “Man, it would be nice to see these kinds of protests at financial committee hearings, too”. But they were just left to their own devices.
Now what happens, when there’s little difference between the parties – because the Dems have been running as “left of the Republicans”, without providing any other alternatives?
A lot of people have been saying that losing the ACA ruling yesterday was a gift for Republicans in the long-term, because now they don’t have to provide an alternative. Well, now the shoe’s on the other foot. We’ll see how it goes.
the Conster
@dedc79:
Everyone in the marriage would have to marry each other to establish equality amongst the parties, but then try to interpret tax and beneficiary implications, if everyone to the marriage brings different assets and liabilities to the marriage. Good luck getting everyone to agree on how those assets and liabilities get allocated if one or more parties want to divorce, to say nothing about custody. There is just no legal framework or precedent.
notoriousJRT
@jl:
Welcome to the Pacific (&) Northwest
Iowa Old Lady
It will be interesting to see what “civil disobedience ” looks like from these troglodytes. Do those in power still intend to deny marriage licenses? Does the Justice Dept send in enforcers? I can’t picture this. I guess we’ll see.
The ones saying this is the end of civilization make me roll my eyes. Iowa has had marriage equality for something like 6 years now. It’s about as civilized as it ever was, for whatever that’s worth.
Baud
@Iowa Old Lady:
Ernst’s election makes me question that assertion.
Iowa Old Lady
@Baud: Ya got me there.
dedc79
@the Conster: the somewhat helpful albeit imperfect way I try to simplify it is to think about trying to play rock, paper, scissors with more than 2 people.
Mike J
@Iowa Old Lady:
The 101st Airborne can issue licenses.
SiubhanDuinne
@PurpleGirl:
Yes, I remember that. I think the blessing ceremony took place in the chapel (St. George’s) at Windsor Castle, just up the road from the town hall where the civil ceremony was performed. I guess the overall point is that if a couple wants to tie the knot, they go through whatever hoops and paperwork their jurisdiction legally requires, and additionally (optionally) they comply with canon law or whatever religious requirements there are in their chosen faith tradition.
LAC
@Keith G: ACA victory…marriage equality victory…all amazing. But unqualified praise by you of something the president did? Ladies, rip off the roof and stay in bed- it’s raining men!!! (I would have gone with cats and dogs, but in the spirit of the day)
Damn good eulogy. – and a damn shame he had to do it.
jl
@Iowa Old Lady: Biblically i think you get spotted 7 years of plenty, and then 7 years of drought and plague. Maybe if you contact ol’ Huck or Rih, one of them can send you a timetable for the various righteous wrath cursings we are going to get.
Funny, though, I thought I was going to hear a lot of BS about the fall for Rome. But Rome got super decadent in the late Republic, IIRC. The best of Empire was yet to come, ,and Augustus had to put a lid on the party, things got so out of hand as they were transition from republic to empire.
Rome really fell for good and real several centuries later when it became very devoutly Christian with an extra dose of religious hypocrisy, and greed and avarice and theft.
Origuy
I can haz Chick-Fil-A now?
jl
@notoriousJRT:
‘ Welcome to the Pacific (&) Northwest ‘
thanks but I hear AK, OR and WA don’t want is Californicatorians.
SiubhanDuinne
@SiubhanDuinne:
Should have read: Yes, I agree. It’s true artistry, which goes beyond being a very skilled technician.
JPL
@Origuy: The quality is still not great.
the Conster
@Iowa Old Lady:
We’ve had SSM in Mass. for 11 years, and now we have the lowest divorce rate in the country. #LoveWins
notoriousJRT
@srv:
Yes let’s get rid of SCOTUS. We need it as much as we need to monitor volcanoes. What a ass.
? Martin
@Iowa Old Lady:
Preview today from Texas by raising an religious freedom order. Presumably individuals can refuse to issue licenses under that order, and so a new round of lawsuits can commence. Then we can slog through the unavoidable arguments about whether the dignity of a couple trying to marry trumps the dignity of the official issuing the license.
Botsplainer
Texas AG gets defied on his defiance.
http://www.newsweek.com/texas-clerks-issue-gay-marriage-licenses-following-scotus-decision-despite-347499
the Conster
@dedc79:
That’s actually a great analogy and twitter friendly. Very helpful indeed.
satby
Been out of communication at the farmer’s market all day (cell was dead) and how great is this to come home to? Just so happy for so many friends!
22over7
The polygamy argument is just idiots trying to scare people, booga booga. Polygamists currently operating in the U.S. have horrible patriarchal systems like Craster’s beyond the Wall. I wouldn’t say no to that system getting modernized.
JPL
@Botsplainer: When a person takes an oath of office, they promise to defend and uphold the constitution.
Germy Shoemangler
HNGN: Texas Pastor Says He Will Set Himself On Fire In Protest Over Gay Marriage
Keith G
@LAC:
Oh dear LAC, where have you been?
Let me quote myself from a few days ago…and not all that different than things I have said been compelled to type too many times here.
jl
@22over7: Maybe since the reactionaries have a natural antipathy to any kind an equal civil contract between a man and a woman or a woman and society, generalization of any change at all to current marriage contract, such as same-sex marriage, using that as a way to get them back to unequal and oppressive patriarchal polygamy has a certain gut level appeal to them. They just can’t help themselves.
Same with adults diddling poor kids dogs and donkeys in marriage contract.
It’s a nice bogeyman story and projection.
Germy Shoemangler
@dedc79:
It can be done
BillinGlendaleCA
@Germy Shoemangler: I’ve got some lighters.
? Martin
@22over7: That’s not entirely true, and liberals would be wise to not stereotype here. There’s an equally strong polygamy community that are aligned with traditional liberal causes and values. Any serious case is going to come from our community and I believe it will be fairly compelling – at least in the sense that people won’t be pointing and saying ‘those people are crazy’. It’s going to look like a pretty standard family unit, just with one more adult. And I don’t think it’ll be patriarchal at all because it’ll be important to choose that first national case to break that particular stereotype.
Germy Shoemangler
@BillinGlendaleCA: I’ll provide the accelerant.
BillinGlendaleCA
@JPL: They’d just say the 1st Amendment is part of the Constitution and religious freedom.
Roger Moore
@Iowa Old Lady:
The first will be the same thing they do whenever the Supreme Court recognizes that people other than them have equal rights: they’ll try to destroy the whole institution rather than accept they have to share. They tried to shut down public schools and swimming pools rather than integrate. Now they’ll stop issuing any marriage licenses rather than have to give them to Teh Ghey.
shell
@Roy G.: And whenever there’s news that might involve religion, Bill Donohue’s sour puss show’s up on some segment. Donohue of the Catholic League, which is basically him and a computer.
fuckwit
@Comrade Luke: People get passionate about social issues. Getting people passionate about economic issues is more difficult, unless you’re Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, or the Occupy kids. But it can be done.
Also, very many of the economic injustices in this country are driven by racism. So, the better we get with social issues, the easier it becomes to fix the economic issues.
Roger Moore
@dedc79:
Obviously you need to switch to rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock.
shell
Well, in any of them are allergic to gold-plated crap, they should anyway.
22over7
@? Martin: That’s polyamory, a different animal. Traditional polygamy is recognized (sort of) as marriage, in the Old Testament meaning of the word. I would not say no, as I said, to a modern, respectful recognition of modern, respectful polyamory. But you’re right that such a group would have to take it to court. The traditional polygamists hide, or move to Mexico, like Mitt’s ancestors.
Valdivia
What a day, what a week. For the history books.
Happy Friday BJ
now back to dinner
Roger Moore
@jl:
I’ve heard people say this is exactly what they’re getting at with their complaints about same sex couples destroying the institution of marriage. Their idea of marriage is an inherently unequal one based around gender inequality. While that hasn’t been legally true for some time, allowing same sex couples to marry destroys the last illusion of marriage as a relationship between two parties who are unequal because of gender differences.
JPL
@BillinGlendaleCA: I assume they are not taking the oath in a church. Separation of church and state is fundamental. If they can’t uphold the constitution, they need to be fired.
jl
@? Martin: If a case comes to court, I will read about the arguments. The issue has to stand on its own merits, and I don’t care whether brought be new model Mormon GOPers or some group identified somehow with liberals (is that supposed to be ‘my side’? I have no idea who these people are.) I don’t care who brings the case, what are the merits?
And I don’t see at all the connection between poly marriages and gay marriages. A whole raft of additional issues come up with multiple marriages that as far as I can see have nothing to do with same-sex marriage between two adults. So whoever brings such a case, I feel that i, as a liberal in favor of same-sex marriage, have nothing to explain and nothing to worry about.
jl
@Roger Moore: Some illusions die hard, I guess.
the Conster
@Roger Moore:
Twitter is telling me that Mississippi will stop issuing marriage licenses, period. LOL. The backlash is going to be epic FAIL.
Mike J
@the Conster:
And yet they’ll still have to recognize the marriages of all those people that will drive to Memphis or New Orleans.
fuckwit
@Roger Moore: It’s a sign of not just marriage equality, but marriage EQUALITY. Meaning, not just that gay people are equal to straight people in getting married, but… both parties in the marriage– regardless of gender or orientation– are equal!
This is a huge shift from the “traditional” view of marriage, which is… read the bible.. chattel slavery.
Marriage as an “traditional institution” is slavery. It is the owning of a woman (or several women) by her husband. She is his property. That’s what marriage has meant for around 5 thousand years.
Only in very modern times has marriage been about love and partnership between equals. That’s a very modern view of marriage. Well, if both parties are men, or both women, the equality of marriage is complete. It’s between two ADULTS, regardless of gender, who are equal.
I’m not sure if all the head-assploding-wingnuts are explicitly reacting to that or even conscious of it, but I’ll venture a gamble that it is underlying it.
Plus, of course, just basic puritan homophobia.
Tree With Water
@JPL: “..You might as well appeal against the thunder-storm as against these terrible hardships of war. They are inevitable, and the only way the people of Atlanta can hope once more to live in peace and quiet at home, is to stop the war, which can only be done by admitting that it began in error and is perpetuated in pride. We don’t want your negroes, or your horses, or your houses, or your hands, or any thing that you have, but we do want and will have a just obedience to the laws of the United States. That we will have, and, if it involves the destruction of your improvements, we cannot help it.”.
General Sherman to the mayor of Atlanta 1864 (the mayor had beseeched Sherman to cancel his evacuation order).
the Conster
@Roger Moore:
Misogyny and racism underlie the whole “marriage is sacred” argument. Why? Because white men have decreed it so. It’s a white male controlled institution under attack, and it lost. Today is literally the last day of that world view, hence all the apocalyptic hyperbole. Today is a day that straight white men get to take a place in line, and become just another interest group. It hasn’t been processed by the RWNJs fully, but what you’re seeing today is their primal scream.
Gravenstone
@Keith G: Didn’t see a pic, but that timeline (if that’s what they call the stream of replies) is fucking vile. Assholes out in force, of course.
Iowa Old Lady
@the Conster: That’ll make the good citizens of Mississippi happy. LOL
Cervantes
@fuckwit:
An excellent comment — thanks!
the Conster
@Iowa Old Lady:
Please proceed, Mississippi.
Roger Moore
@fuckwit:
The traditional “Western” view of marriage. Not every culture in the world had the same view of marriage.
jl
@Iowa Old Lady: It must be a joke. But, if not, everyone straight or gay can just drive over the nearest state line to get married I guess. Mississippi just outsources the civil marriage contract to their neighboring states, all of which will appreciate the marriage tourist money.
I remember I proposed in a thread some years ago that one solution to the problem was to do away with the word ‘marriage’ in civil contracts and everyone gets a civil union, straight or gay. I got hell for that. In retrospect, part of my motivation was vindictive: I wanted to take the word ‘marriage’ away from the contracts for straight bigots who had such a problem understanding this is a secular nation.
But, I never thought the reactionaries would so completely freak out that they would drop civil marriage completely rather than do the decent and constitutional thing. But I was wrong. There is no peak wingnut.
LAC
@Keith G: God, you really have zero sense of humor, don’t cha? Let’s not get too full of ourselves. You have said enough things in the past to make your compliments few and far between
maya
@fuckwit: Now we know what Mrs. Scalia has to endure.
fuckwit
@Roger Moore: Good point, thanks. I tend to have a Eurocentric view of history and it’s something I have long needed to work on fixing.
Bruce Webb
@Elmo: First congratulations on you and your wife’s new found freedom to travel without worry.
Second, you really need to use that new freedom to travel to California. Starting with places like Sequoia National Park (Sierras) and Redwood National Park (North Coast) that have trees whose girth and acreage make a mockery of this:
” you’re honorary New Engalnders, but with fewer trees and better skiing. ”
At least the first part. California has forests you could drop certain NE States into. But with the drought the “better skiing” is getting kinda iffy some places.
Germy Shoemangler
Bryan Fischer said “From a moral standpoint, 6/26 is now our 9/11.”
fuckwit
@jl: Your goal may be accomplished anyway. Wingnut states like MS will just stop calling it “marriage” and eventually retool to start issuing “civil unions”, and let the churches take care of marriages.
Mike J
Ta-Nehisi Coates @tanehisicoates 3m3 minutes ago
fuckwit
@Germy Shoemangler: That’s interesting, because I’ll bet if you count up all the gay people who’ve been lynched or gay teenagers driven to suicide by bullying, it might just add up to more than a few 9/11’s so far.
jl
@fuckwit: My proposal was not really a goal of mine. I just flew it up the flagpole in comments a few years a go, and then to my surprise watched the target practice. A lot of commenters hated the idea and were offended by it.
I would like to find a way to get it through certain people’s heads that this is a secular nation, and their marriage thingee is a nonreligious civil contract except when dealing with their church. They get divorced so much in the South, where most of the BS comes from, that you would think they would have gotten it straight by now. But they haven’t and it is probably hopeless.
the Conster
@Germy Shoemangler:
From his “moral” standpoint, he’s right. He and his ilk are no longer the boss of us. His world just went upside down. Since it was upside down before because he’s a wingnut, this is where wingnuttia gets really interesting. Wingnuts are in disarray, let’s just say.
Germy Shoemangler
@the Conster: They are nasty and dangerous when they feel cornered and threatened. Let’s hope they don’t act out TOO much.
Germy Shoemangler
Scalia, Thomas, Roberts, Alito Suddenly Realize They Will Be Villains In Oscar-Winning Movie One Day
Onion headline.
Germy Shoemangler
My local PBS station is doing its bit to heal racial tensions:
9pm – In performance at the White House – The Gospel Tradition
10pm – In performance at the White House – A Tribute to Country Music
the Conster
@Germy Shoemangler:
There will be blood, but look what that got them in Charlston. Obama’s invoking of the mysterious ways of God was some powerful juju. Just sayin’. Wingnuts are in total disarray.
jl
@Germy Shoemangler: That is more than they deserve. They could bet the laughlines in a black comedy. That seems more likely after reading about, and reading bits of their opinions. The other would be the straight men (er… straight people… um… I better stop, I’m running into odd and unexpected insinduendo problems here)
fuckwit
@Germy Shoemangler: Oh shit. You’re right. This is America. Guns. Entitled angry white bigots with guns.
The sad truth is, somewhere, right now, there is probably more than one angry, alienated young white man listening seriously to Louie Gohmert and those other clowns go apoplectic, and saving up to go down to the store to buy himself an AR-15 or two, to avenge this slight against “traditional marriage” or whatever.
We have a hate problem in this country. We also have a gun problem.
Keith G
@LAC:
No.
Elizabelle
We’ve been victory lapping on this thread a long time now.
Looking a little worn ….
gf120581
@Germy Shoemangler: Scalia and Thomas are basically film villains already, so I don’t think it’ll be much of a stretch for them to grasp.
Related note; Clarence Thomas a is a real piece of shit. It’s rich for him to side like he did when a previous court decision along similar lines is what made his marriage possible. But then again, he’s always been a classic “I’ve got mine, so fuck you” kind of asshole.
Germy Shoemangler
@gf120581:
http://mediamatters.org/video/2015/06/26/after-marriage-equality-decision-fox-analyst-qu/204174
Mike J
@Elizabelle:
A new one.
SiubhanDuinne
@fuckwit:
You’re a good person, and that’s a very generous statement, fuckwit.
jl
@Germy Shoemangler:
It gets better:
‘ AIDALA: Because Congress is supposed to be the one who decides whether they can do it or they can’t do it. Congress empowers the judiciary. So it should be Congress’ job along with the executive. ‘
Since when it Congress in charge of state marriage laws? That is a nice conservative federalist perspective. I need to get a gig as a Fox ‘expert’ ‘analyst’. Only qualifications seem to be that you know how to cash the check.
@Mike J: thanks. best presidentin’ gif I’ve seen since Obbie ‘n’ Bi won in 2008.
Ruckus
A discussion that a contractual relationship between equals is more difficult because of more than 2 parties seems to me to be on the same level as trying to stop that relationship because we effectively didn’t consider the two parties to be equal in the first place. If we consider that anyone entering into a marriage contract is an equal, which this ruling does, shows to me that as long as multiple parties are equal, what would the problem be from a legal standpoint of having more than 2 parties to the contract? Isn’t that the premise of both the idea that SSM is fine and that it is horrible, depending on your point of view? That in a marriage, any marriage, there is or isn’t equality between the parties? And this decision has clarified that there is equality between them. So why should there be a limit to the number of parties to the contract? That the contract becomes more difficult to dissolve fairly?
Davis X. Machina
@fuckwit: We have a hate problem in this country. We also have a gun problem.
And Obama should have already fixed it, by leading, with leadership.
Ron Fournier… of course.
the Conster
Watching Obama introducing Gospel from the White House. He’s so cool, he’s a fucking rock star – he actually did a cool shout out to his black church gig today. T Bone Burnett on deck.
the Conster
Shirley Caesar. Black church meets White House. Kill me now.
Felonius Monk
Great headline over at Crooks & Liars:
BillinGlendaleCA
@jl:
Huh? I thought Article III empowered the judiciary.
ETA: Silly me, I guess I’m not worthy for a gig on Faux Noise.
danielx
Mmmmm….I have to admit that the popping noises from exploding wingnut heads was music to my ears for a while, but it’s starting to get wearisome.
Elizabelle
Anne put up a new thread.
ruemara
@Keith G: Yes, actually.
Matt McIrvin
@the Conster: To be entirely fair, you can use those sorts of statistics to argue either side of the question, because divorce rates and marriage rates generally vary in unison: the places with low divorce rates also have low marriage rates.
What it really speaks to is people waiting until later to get married, which I personally think is mostly a good thing, but if you’re into the promotion of marriage and deeply opposed to sex/pregnancy/childbirth outside of marriage, you might not.
Matt McIrvin
@the Conster: Watching Obama at that church, the thing that came to mind was all the people insisting that he’s some kind of fake Christian, either because he’s really a Muslim or because he’s really some kind of secular atheist talking the God-talk just to get elected because it’s what you do in this country.
No, I mean, I’m an atheist, but that’s definitely not what I saw up there.
Matt McIrvin
@22over7:
That’s an interesting spin on it: make polygamy a legal relationship and, to some extent, it would have to conform to modern norms of equality under the law. Of course, your hardcore polygynists who keep a bunch of child brides as chattel probably wouldn’t go for it anyway.
Matt McIrvin
@jl: I think part of that is that traditionalists on sexual issues simply do not understand a concept of sexual morality based around informed consent, respect for others’ boundaries and avoidance of harm. They can’t wrap their heads around it, because to them sexual morality is about behavioral purity and preserving the kinds of power relations they approve of. If those constraints are broken, the only other system they can conceive of is “anything goes”.