Who gets the photo credit on this? Absolutely remarkable shot. pic.twitter.com/6BYY61yvSS
— Laura Seay (@texasinafrica) June 27, 2015
Much discussed in the comments, but not everybody reads the comments. Per the Washington Post:
Some version of the Confederate flag has flown atop or in front of the South Carolina statehouse in Columbia since 1961.
For a little while on Saturday, it came down.
The controversial Southern symbol was removed by a black woman identified as Bree Newsome, 30, a North Carolina educator and activist from Charlotte, who scaled a 30-foot flagpole in front of the statehouse at 6:15 Saturday morning and took down the flag by hand, according to a group of activists who traveled to the State Capitol Saturday…
Authorities returned the flag to the top of the pole, which is protected by state law, shortly after the pair’s arrest. As of 9:15 a.m. Saturday, calls left for the South Carolina state police spokesperson had not been returned.
The flag is not raised or lowered on a rope, as most flags are. It is attached to the pole by hooks, which Newsome unscrewed, Lewis said. She said the flag never touched the ground…
Her climb quickly inspired the hashtag #KeepItDown and #FreeBree, both of which were trending on Twitter within hours of her arrest. An Indiegogo campaign launched by supporters to raise money for Newsome’s legal fees raised more than $45,000 in four hours.
Her actions also caught the attention of several famous allies. The Rev. Jesse Jackson prasied Newsome on Twitter and filmmaker Michael Moore offered her financial support…
Around 60 supporters of the flag held a rally several hours later in front of the Confederate monument on the Statehouse complex, chanting “Heritage not hate!” and demanding that state leaders hold a referendum on the flag’s future…
redshirt
Bree is always an adventure.
cathyx
Now it needs a flaming arrow shot at it.
? Martin
@cathyx: My thoughts exactly. Dying in a fire is even too good for that symbol.
redshirt
ALSO! Mad Max: Fury Road is one of the coolest movies I’ve seen at the theater in I can’t remember how long. Maybe since the Matrix, so 1999.
If you haven’t seen it yet, do so before it leaves the theaters.
KG
I really want someone to confront these neo confederate assholes about what heritage that flag represents
lamh36
Just came from hanging with Maddie and her crew at Aquarium of the Americas.
twitter.com/psddluva4evah/status/614936587420483584
catclub
American Swastika?
Southern Swastika?
Confederate Swastika?
Big ole hound
Shame the up-standing boys of South Carolina who were upstaged by this gal with guts. She gave them a whole day to get to the top of that flagpole and none even tried. I salute this brave girl for doing a little jail time and allowing her name to be part of history.
Bree the Brave.
cathyx
@KG: They are completely deaf to reason.
KG
Random soccer question… Is there some reason why Brazil and Paraguay went straight to penalty kicks instead of playing extra time?
redshirt
I flipped off some redneck in a huge truck flying a USA and a Confederate flag yesterday. Felt good.
satby
@KG: Been doing just that on FB (here: m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=986551131378638&id=118399128193847&ref=m_notif&no…)
Getting the usual replies that I need to get educated, what the War was REALLY about (hint, they don’t think it was about slavery), etc. If you’re on FB c’mon and help me freep them.
redshirt
It is an awesome moment – historical even. A black woman taking down the Stars and Bars by force?
A new age.
Steeplejack (tablet)
@catclub:
“Dixie swastika” was trending last week.
KG
@cathyx: oh, I know they are. That’s why I want them, on the record, to explain what it is they are so proud of… Slavery? Treason? The failure to allow the peaceful transfer of power following a fair election? Jim Crow? The Klan?
Felanius Kootea
I wish she’d had a lighter on her and just burned the damn flag.
@redshirt: I know – I was blown away by Mad Max; not what I expected at all. Highly recommend.
KG
@satby: have you linked to the articles of succession yet? Because those make it pretty clear
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Gets my vote
JPL
@satby: You should put a link to the GA secession papers. They might shut up then.
JPL
@lamh36: She is so cute.
Tree With Water
Check this out. It begins:
“On the evening of June 13, 1902, Mary Custis Lee was arrested on an Alexandria streetcar for sitting in the section reserved for black patrons. As the daughter of Robert E. Lee, the General of the Confederate Army, the incident caused quite a stir within the community..”.
blogs.weta.org/boundarystones/
redshirt
@Felanius Kootea: I still can’t believe how good a movie it was. It rocked my mind – a dystopian feminist action movie. Has such a thing ever existed before? Maybe The Terminator – which is awesome for similar reasons.
rikyrah
@lamh36:
Everytime I see her, the word ADORABLE comes to mind.
satby
@KG: @JPL: on my kindle, so no, it’s a pain to link to anything.
Thing is they know perfectly well what the War was about and that the flag does stand for hate… one of them was whining about “why can’t she be proud to be white if everyone else can be proud to be whatever they are”. They know the talking points and can trot them out on cue, but they know what that the flag is a symbol of. And they’re angry they can’t have public approval of it any more.
FlipYrWhig
@redshirt: isn’t Tank Girl a feminist dystopian action movie?
JPL
Spoiler alert.. The NY Times Sunday puzzle comes online at six on Saturday. Anyway one of the clues was Bristol, e.g. five letters. Who will be the first to say they only put her in the puzzle because she’s pregnant?
lol
Anne Laurie
@catclub: I like Mr. PIerce’s title: The Gonfalon of Treason.
KG
@satby: my response to the “why can’t white people be proud to be white?” is typically “because white people tend to ruin everything.”
MomSense
@satby:
Little green footballs put together an article rebutting all the confederate flag talking points. Concise and in one place
JPL
@satby: My friend who is not white, after years of listening to bozo boortz, thought it was about states rights. I read the secession paper to her. Brain washing is color blind.
redshirt
@FlipYrWhig: Is it? I’ve never seen it.
Maybe Aliens is. But it’s not actually dystopian.
jl
@satby: Gee, why aren’t all white people all “proud to be white” over a rally to support the Confederate battle flag? Sure, why not… ? No dog whistle there. I am white but count me out. Thank you very much. Jeebus.
ThresherK
@Anne Laurie: Gonfalon?
Leave it to Charlie Pierce to use, correctly, a word most of us have only heard in “Tinkers to Evers to Chance”.
Brachiator
@FlipYrWhig: Yep. As is The Fifth Element, to a large degree.
Gian
@redshirt:
You may mean terminator 2, in which the Linda Hamilton played character does pull ups, escapes from a criminal mental hospital by force and knows how to do things like clean and use a gun and flee to mexico
in the first movie, she’s really not that much more than a damsel in distress
redshirt
@Brachiator: In the Fifth Element, it’s neither a dystopia nor is it a feminist movie – Leeloo is just an object (the fifth element) within the movie’s plot, and not really a woman at all.
SiubhanDuinne
Michael Moore has said he’s covering her bail.
SiubhanDuinne
@lamh36:
I haven’t been there for years — since before Katrina, so what? A decade or more. I remember loving it and wonder how much it’s changed in ten+ years.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@KG:
Most white people who claim to be proud of something about their heritage are proud of a specific nationality: they’re proud to be Irish, or Italian, or Scottish, or whatever. That’s why it’s bizarre for people to generically claim they’re proud to be “white.” It’s like, really, there’s absolutely nothing about your background you can be proud of other than your skin color? You’re so ignorant of your own ancestry you don’t even know where your family came from? African-Americans at least have some excuse because usually their genealogy hunt ends at slave records that are very difficult to trace. What’s your excuse?
redshirt
@Gian: True enough about T2, but I’d argue the original is plenty feminist. You have a harassed waitress at the beginning of the movie who’s revealed to be the mother of salvation halfway in, and who saves her own ass at the end of the movie from the unstoppable killing machine. Her plot arc is from nobody to hero in the first film and she even has a conversation with another woman in the film about something other than a man (barely).
SiubhanDuinne
@catclub:
Dixie Swastika.
satby
@SiubhanDuinne: I contributed to the indegogo anyway. Just because the reichtards are so ready to defend their murderers with their $, I felt supporting Bree Newsome was important.
SiubhanDuinne
@SiubhanDuinne:
Too late to edit, but I see now that that point was covered in the article and I missed it.
Anne Laurie
@ThresherK: Well, that’s the orientation in which it’s usually hung by its “defenders”. And I like the callback to a bunch of piddly little medieval fiefdoms, brandishing banners all along the borders of their tinpot “empires” in defiance of… nothing worth having. Woo hoo!
MomSense
Sorry to go O/T but holy stupid fundraising emails
After the week we just had the Dems send out fundraising emails with “you were wrong” and “major loss” as subject lines??
They could have tried some humor and fun.
Iowa Old Lady
@Mnemosyne (tablet): When they say, “it’s our heritage,” I want them to explain who “our” refers to because they’re obviously ignoring all the African-American citizens of the south. Though I guess that flag is part of their heritage too, just not a part they celebrate.
ThresherK
@Mnemosyne (tablet): The best part is where a white person would be forced to choose which country’s ancestoral source to be proud of.
The one great-grandma who lived long enough for me to know immigrated from Alsace-Lorraine. I looked it up on a map, and wondered “Why does she speak German?”
JPL
@MomSense: I unsubscribe. It doesn’t mean that I won’t donate but I’m tired of the snail mail and emails.
Woodrowfan
they confuse “pride in being white” with “thinking that makes me superior” It’s OK to be happy with who you are, to think ‘this is a nice skin color/eye color/hair color/nose shape/whatever” so long as you don;t think that makes you superior to others who don’t share that trait. healthy self-respect does not depend upon denigrating others.
MomSense
@Iowa Old Lady:
There is a video of one of the people at the pro loser flag rally saying that if you don’t appreciate the history and the flag then you should leave this country. I was thinking the opposite would be more appropriate. If you identify with a flag symbolizing treason and slavery then maybe you should be the one to leave.
Iowa Old Lady
@ThresherK: Another thing to be amused by is that because most African-Americans descend from slaves, their ancestors were in the US long before the ancestors of most of the white people around them.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
Interesting article I ran across about genealogy and Black people — if you know some of your ancestors came from US states that bordered Canada, it’s possible that they were actually Black Canadians who fudged their citizenship in the pre-Social Security days:
archives.com/genealogy/family-heritage-african-american.html
Woodrowfan
@Iowa Old Lady: not to mention the substantial minority of whites who were Unionists…
JPL
This is nice
link
He also supports gay rights which has been the position of the Episcopal Church for awhile.
Woodrowfan
@Mnemosyne (tablet): well, you know how THOSE people are (Canadians I mean) ;P
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@ThresherK:
Why choose? Some days I claim to be more Irish. Some days I claim to be more Italian. Heck, some days I blame my English or German genes. I’m a mutt, and I’m happy about it. :-)
MomSense
@JPL:
I just don’t understand the constantly depressing emails asking about money. How about making some jokes about winning Nancy Pelosi’s pure applesauce recipe or writing fortune cookie messages to Scalia. Why can’t they think of something fun? We actually do need to raise money and win.
catclub
@JPL:
Funny.
JPL
@MomSense: Normally I donate a chunk to the Presidential candidate and will probably do so again. At this time, there are really no local candidates to support. Sad but true, GA is a very red state.
jl
@Mnemosyne (tablet):
” Most white people who claim to be proud of something about their heritage are proud of a specific nationality: ”
And actually, ‘nationality’ is kind of bullshitty too, but probably enough kernel of small truth to national myths to make the BS safe enough (barely) to celebrate, if done with common sense and judgment. ‘White’ as a racial or ethnic grouping is so recent, and so manufactured for ulterior political purposes, that unfortunately, the concept has to be considered suspect. Like the Confederate battle flag, ‘white’ has been co-opted and polluted by white racists. IMHO, any Caucasian tighty-whitey type worried about pride in, and fate of ‘white culture’ probably has issues of some type or other.
” they’re proud to be Irish, or Italian, or Scottish, or whatever. ”
I think I mentioned once that I found a very old grade school textbook of US history sitting on some forgotten back shelf as a kid. Maybe it went back to 1920s or 30s, or at least looked like it. Was very careful to go over contributions of all the ‘white’ nationalities to US history. Every country that had some little colony or outpost ever in colonial US, including the Swedes, were mentioned. Irish built the transcontinental railroads, don’t you know. No mention of black freedmen or Chinese who did a most of the most dangerous and grueling work. Sections on Italians and Germans too. I gather it might have been some effort to include all European heritages in on the building of the US. I think that is an indication of how recently ‘whites’ did not view themselves as a unified group.
So, at best, like that (I suspect) jokey and ironical ‘white culture day’ with all the mayonnaise and white bread jokes at a baseball game in Utah, ‘white culture’ is an edgy joke that is likely to be misunderstood and backfire.
So, I am white but count me out of any ‘white culture’ BS.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@ThresherK:
Also, too (and you probably already knew this), Alsace-Lorraine was a football that was kicked between France and Germany since before there was a unified Germany, at least. It ended up with France after WWI (I think), but there are still quite a few native German speakers there.
satby
@MomSense: that was helpful and one link I can manage on Kindle, so I gave them that one.
Won’t matter, but I think there’s value in them knowing we know they’re just bullshitting.
@Mnemosyne (tablet): This! I’m a proud granddaughter of Ireland, but there’s an actual heritage, good and bad, that is reflected in that statement.
“Proud to be white”? That’s all you got? That’s fucking pathetic.
Woodrowfan
@Mnemosyne (tablet): yeah, Germany grabbed it in 1871, France got it back in 1919. Germany had it 1940-1945. Then back to France. It’s kind of a mixed culture, but it’s no accident the best French beer traditionally came from there…
Poopyman
@Iowa Old Lady: Well I guess it’s part of my heritage too, in that the treasonous motherfuckers who were carrying it were shooting at my great-grandfather. He was not partial to it, nor am I.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@MomSense: I’ve mostly been getting “You/We Did It!” type emails. A lot from “Barack Obama”, I need you, James, Are you with me, James? I’m just deleting them at this point, so I don’t know if they’re from the DNC, OFA, the library. I guess not the last, since I haven’t given, yet. I will.
The ones that do creep me out a bit: Sign So-and-so’s Birthday Card!, and the the ones that come under the name of the pol’s kids or grandkids.
mdblanche
The Greek parliament just voted to hold a referendum. The only opposition party to join the governing parties in supporting it were the Nazis. Make of that what you will.
Brachiator
@Gian: In the first Terminator movie, the entire human race is soft, passive, helpless, a damsel in distress. And by the end of the film, the transformation of the Hamilton character is strongly implied, even if there had never been a sequel.
Tenar Darell
@lamh36: She is so cute. I automatically go “daw” when you put up a picture.
@satby: Well, you could tell ’em exactly what to google ? My usual suggestion is some combo of Alexander Stephens Corner Stone speech, massive resistance, white citizen councils, and Lee Atwater’s interview. Then if they still want to argue with you, ask them why the actual history and remembrances of people who were there makes them so uncomfortable?
Smiling Mortician
@MomSense: Really? I’ve been bombarded with fundraising emails, but they’ve all been pretty much celebratory.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@jl:
Apparently my grandmother’s Irish father and German mother did not approve of her marrying one of them Eye-talians, even if he was a good Catholic, so I agree that uniting everyone with mostly European ancestry under the rubric of “white” is a pretty recent development. Since about 1964, I’d say.
Cacti
Proof that the world really has left the GOP behind:
Dale Earnhardt, Jr., the most popular driver in NASCAR, says that the confederate battle flag is “offensive to an entire race” and that it “belongs in history books”.
Good for you Lil Dale.
catclub
@mdblanche: A total mess. The offer the referendum will vote on may not even exist by the time the vote takes place.
bloombergview.com/articles/2015-06-27/will-greece-make-it-to-the-referendum-
catclub
@Cacti: Wow.
jl
And from my reading of history, one of the bigot and racist slams on African-Americans trying to find their heritage in the late 1960s and 1970s was that, since African-American slaves were a mix of many cultures from west Africa, all their efforts at trying to find their heritage, Kwanza, etc., was all BS and worthy of ridicule and laughter.
But, looking at my own ‘white’ heritage, especially the Scots-Irish side, I see as much BS there as anything any other groups cobble together.
‘THOSE PEOPLE have no culture’ was a bigot and racist charge against African-Americans (well, because prior racists did everything they could, up to and including killing people, to destroy any memory of their slaves’ cultural heritage for several generations, so there is that…) ‘The fake manufactured pathetic myth heritage of THOSE PEOPLE is FAKE’ was a charge of white racists and bigots when find one’s African heritage became popular.
Good to remember that when bigots and deluded scared whites prate about ‘white culture’. It is just as fake a folk tale as anything else floating around, probably more so.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Cacti: Did you see Strom Thurmond’s son came out against it, too?
I’ll give him a pass on the “in part”
JPL
@Cacti: That’s fainting couch stuff.
MomSense
@Smiling Mortician:
DCCC
satby
@Tenar Darell: You’re assuming they don’t actually know all that and they would listen.
Neither assumption is likely to be correct. They know. It’s the flag of “fuck all y’alls”.
PurpleGirl
Most of the people trying to defend the flying of the Stars and Bars and any one of the other CSA flags tie it to “heritage”. Well, it seems that most of these banners lay unused until the 1960s… I wonder what was happening around that time. Also, why would northern residents fly any of these banners when they are more recent immigrants, never lived in the South, etc. Could it have something to do with the Civil Rights movement… i.e. racial hate.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@jl:
Wait, you’re telling me that all of the Irish-Americans claiming to be directly descended from Brian Boru are delusional? Who’d’a thunk it?
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne (tablet): There’s been all kinds of stuff about the “invention of whiteness.” In the early 20th century, you might have seen more about the superiority of Anglo Saxons, or the WASP character of the US, especially as the Irish, Italians, Hungarians and other ethnic whites were disparaged, especially the Jews. And Asians went from exotic and potentially subversive, to model minorities. Muslims are still despised, but more for their religion than their ethnicity. Blacks and Latinos still can’t catch a break.
jl
@Mnemosyne (tablet): From my family tree, the Swiss Germans emigrant side was the most notoriously parochial. People from Bern, Basel, Zurich, all consider themselves the true original upright Swiss, and everyone else was nuts and unworthy in some way. And the French and Italian Swiss.. don’t even go there…
Cacti
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Wow.
Brachiator
@redshirt: We disagree about The Fifth Element. The universe of the film is often as broken down as that of Blade Runner. And Leeloo is a goddess, not an object.
Poopyman
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Yeah, I was thinking that most Rebels didn’t own slaves, but then …
The whole thing is worth a read.
mdblanche
@catclub: The whole thing looks like Tsipras is playing the last card of a politically weak hand. Fasten your seat-belts…
Pogonip
I have had a very busy weekend, started yesterday, so tonight I am going to bed early.
My energy seems to be flagging.
[Gotcha!]
jl
@Mnemosyne (tablet): My Irish side is mix of protestant and Catholic, so the cultural confusion is godawful. And I find the protestant northerm Irish culture one of the most dreary and parochial messes I ever heard of.
My refuge is Scotland itself, since old ancestral family kept kept ties and communications between there and Northern Ireland. But religious and cultural confusion of the ancestry is just as great, but the violence and massacres in Scots history is far enough back that there is less stress involved.
I recently read that one famous Scottish Clan is not Gaelic at all, but a Norman group injected into border between lowlands and highland in order to establish a cultural and political outpost there. I’m not sure which clan it is. And some famous clans are a mix of Gaelic and Norse invaders.
Anyway, everyone who takes their heritage seriously, should read a good translation of Juvenal’s eighth satire, on ‘nobility’
Tenar Darell
@satby: Ah, I was unclear. I never expect that to work. I’ve given up on convincing people with facts, especially if I’ve had similar arguments with them before. If I feel up to it, I usually try a variation of walking in somebody else’s shoes. (Atticus Finch rule). Tell them to imagine they are African American, and ask if they still believe the flag represents heritage and not hate then. If they say yes, well, at least you know.
But I’d guess you really needed to share. I sympathize.
Tommy
I take flags pretty seriously. I flew an American flag outside of my house and my father told me I was doing it wrong and needed to understand the basics. Respect! If I didn’t want to take it down every night I needed a light. Show it respect.
I also often fly a state of Louisana flag and an LSU flag. Again dad told me to honor the flag.
Both my dad and I are from the midwest but we spent many years getting our education in the deep south. That flag is a hateful flag. Not something I can recall ever seeing here in IL but I saw it so often in the South.
It stuns me they are confused being called out on it …..
jl
@Tommy: That is fine, but just realize that political, religious and cultural groups change symbols through history, and current venerated historical symbols of any heritage, or their current level of veneration is often a recent invention.
That is true of the US Flag. True of Christian symbols. Original Christian symbol was not the cross. Supposedly venerated and olde tymey Buddhist symbols changed several times, intermixed with Greek symbols and went back to Asia even before the birth of Jesus.
So, I think it is a good thing to have some respect for symbols. But do not be disappointed if you find a lot of the supposed history behind them to be myths.
Iowa Old Lady
@Poopyman: Wow. That’s fascinating. I had no idea what a large percentage of the population was touched by slavery.
Joel
@MomSense: I junked those fundraising emails a long, long, time ago.
Tommy
@jl:
The core of my family came here from the Isle of Skye in the 1860s. I get that and it looks to me like the one of the most breathtaking places in the world. We ran away for a reason.
Well religion ….. I am told if I knock on some castles I have a heritage to say can I stay the night …. :)
We came here and before I die I will walk as a walker/hiker the fields of Scotland where my ancestors walked.
? Martin
@satby: As usual, go straight to Ta-Nehisi:
He takes the issue apart limb by limb.
jl
@Tommy: Scotland can be breathtakingly beautiful. And the poverty was breathtaking too back in the old days.
When in Europe and UK have taken some side trips to check out old family ancestral stomping grounds, and gone to some castles, hamlets, churches, town halls and huts where there is family history.
And to be honest, I find as much to be horrified by as to be proud of. In Switzerland I remember going to a historic castle and wandered into the religious inquisition chamber. Saw some odd bunt markings on the wall, and found the explanatory plaque. The marks were old charred places in the wood where torturers would check if their hot brands were hot enough to go to work on the heretics. And I thought ‘Oh my god, what do I have in common with those people back then? I am glad I will never have an honor of meeting my ancestors.”
Edit: Several parts of my family have what I think is a healthy attitude: ‘if the old country was so great, what are we doing here?” Anyway, have to take the bad with good with heritage, otherwise it is just BS that turns into ignorant bigotry.
jl
@Tommy: Though on second thought, not sure the civil wars and massacres in Scotland are all that further back than in Northern Ireland. I remember going to one castle where am ancestral clan leader was beheaded for participating in a Scots rebellion against the Brits about the same time as the original troubles in Northern Ireland. For some reason, tempers in Scotland cooled long ago. Not really sure they are permanently cooled in Northern Ireland yet, though big progress has been made. Not sure why that is.
Tommy
@jl: It is hard, very hard to understand the history. The “Braveheart” movie is bull shit but we did fight. We fought for many generations.
My family members are letter writers. I love those talking about coming here on a “steamer.” “Digging coal” and “working the rails” until he got here, southern Ilinois.
Elected to office not even a generation later. Judge. His letter he sent out to everybody was rock star like.
Brachiator
For your rebel Facebook friends. The Confederate Constitution is all about the slavery. A good analysis of the actual document and summary notes:
It just amazes me that the states’ rights crowd are so sure of their position, but so ignorant of the facts. And this goes double for some libertarians and Marxists, who want to hang everything on a reductive vision of economics.
jjmccullough.com/CSA.htm
PhilbertDesanex
@jl: Might be that there are not many Catholics in Scotland?
jl
@PhilbertDesanex: Still between 15 and 20 percent of population Catholic in Scotland, and active enough politically and socially to have caused quite a bit of ‘trouble’ both good and bad into 20th century. So, sure, smaller proportion, but not insignificant.
I think in Northern Ireland is about half and half. But the relationship between national and cultural identity and religion is so much stronger in Northern Ireland. I think that is the difference, not just sheer numbers.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Poopyman:
Basically, if you were middle-class or above in the South and had household servants, those servants were slaves, whereas in non-slave states they would be (poorly) paid live-in domestics. And since all but the very poorest families needed at least one servant to help run the household …
seaboogie
@cathyx: Way to go Bree! She even had climbing equipment, it seems. I just felt like driving across country from CA to paint-ball it. Never paint-balled, but it seems like this would have been a good start.
Anne Laurie
@jl:
They shipped the worst of the Scottish hotheads — look up ‘the Clearances’ — over to what was then called ‘the New World’. Where the survivors would spread from the Appalachians to Texas, and their descendents would fight for the Gonfalon of Treason during the Civil War.
You may remember the Steeleye Span version of this lament…
“What force or guile could not subdue / o’er many warlike ages
Is wrought now by a coward few / for hireling traitors wages.. “
jl
@Anne Laurie:
Irish, Scottish and Appalachian Fiddle Music: Talk and Demonstration
youtube.com/watch?v=9taIwi2SoDA
Gvg
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I guess this is a dead three but Sturm Thurgood is the one who turned out to have the secret African American daughter. his white offspring are said to have accepted her. I also noticed how much younger son is compared to father. That’s quite an age gap and probably significant in his views.
blueskies
@redshirt: Can’t believe nobody seems to have grokked your post. Sheesh! And you people call yourselves dweebs!
Frodo Lives!