Atrios finds the Washington Post going all in on Carlymentum. That’s probably a bad sign for her candidacy. The president of “Morning Joe” will never be the president of the United States.
Update. I hate Matt Bai but this is a very smart piece.
Reader Interactions
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RP
I’m calling it now: The GOP candidate will be Rubio.
Yatsuno
Demon Sheep Lady? The ignominious failure of Hewlett-Packard? THAT’S their flavour of the week?
VP MAYBE, since nothing is stopping the Trump at this point.
Side note: We got our first TBogg unit in awhile.
Doug!
@RP:
I think you may be right, but I can’t gauge how much his position on immigration hurts him.
SenyorDave
Her qualifications are obvious. A failed CEO who walked away with a boatload of money despite HP stock going down more than 50% during her tenure. If you are going to be an arrogant prick as CEO you should at least be able to produce results a la Jack Welch at GE.
dedc79
@RP: if rubio somehow gets the nominArion despite his position on immigration, there are a lot of Republicans who either won’t vote at all or will vote for an anti immigration third party candidate.
BGinCHI
Carly is peaking early by lying and being mean. Trump is peaking all the time because he is mainlining what the right wing (AKA GOP) craves.
I think there will be no tacking to the center until after the convention, and then it will only be incremental.
Until the US figures out that the point of government is to govern, we are going to come close to, if not actually elect, total fucking idiots. Even stupider than Reagan and Bush.
RP
@dedc79: I think a decent chunk of the anti-immigrant types won’t bother voting or will vote for a third party, but most will support him. The anti-immigrant stuff is just the two minute hate of the moment; I don’t think many of the GOP voters actually care very much about the issue.
Elizabelle
@Yatsuno: What precisely is a TBogg unit? I forget …
Patrick
The Democrats/Obama had some very effective commercials in 2008 of people that had been laid off/hurt by Mitt Romney’s business practices.
It would be pretty easy for the Democrats/Hillary Clinton to do the same with Carly Fiorina. Her tenure at HP was a disaster. It wouldn’t hard to find willing participants among the 30,000 employees she laid off.
Patrick
@RP:
Their base sure cares about immigration.
JPL
Matt in the previous thread, linked to this Vox article.
Carly is a very confident liar.
Jeffro
I don’t think Bai’s piece is all that smart. Kaisch doesn’t cover nearly enough of the GOP’s bases to be the nominee, although he has a decent chance of being the VP due to Ohio’s importance.
Bai (and many people here on BJ, for months now) is correct that Rubio is on a roll. Whether he would run with Kaisch, Fiorina, or some other wingnut yet to be determined, he at least does cover most the party’s needs and he is certainly a better party unifier than Bush.
Morzer
@RP:
I don’t see Rubio getting above the VP line. He’s not even looking that strong in Florida, never mind Iowa and the rest.
Yatsuno
@Elizabelle: When a comment thread hits 500 comments = 1 TBogg. Doesn’t happen much since we don’t have Recent Comments anymore. Hint hint JC.
beltane
The media was so desperate for Fiorina to be the anti-Trump that they anointed her before the debate even got started.
Thoroughly Pizzled
If Cruz is able to finish second, he’ll be the nominee in 2020. He’s working on the base this cycle.
RP
Rubio strikes me as somewhat similar to McCain in the fall of 2007. I don’t have a lot of evidence to back that up; it’s mostly just a gut feeling. He’s a safe pick for the establishment and money guys, he’s behind but still making a respectable showing, and hasn’t done anything incredibly stupid.
Morzer
@Jeffro:
Kasich as the nominee is just a fantasy for the respectable RINO side of the bigotry that is the GOP.
beltane
I think the Republicans will pick someone like Nikki Haley as VP. Unlike Fiorina, Haley was actually elected and then re-elected to office, is a mother, and has only had one husband.
beltane
@RP: Rubio is also the most photogenic and the least weird.
shell
Who the heck was that pasty-faced goober on CNN this morning, representing, supposedly, the views of the average voter for Trump?
He kept blithering on about “the wall….we need to build that wall…when that wall’s up…inside that wall then everything will be okay……”
??????
When he said inside that wall, I half expected him to want to inter a few illegals in it.
Oh CNN, haven’t you embarressed yourself enough?
Morzer
@RP:
McCain had the advantage of being the natural heir, following his strong second place to Bush in the previous GOP primary. Rubio doesn’t have that, or enough charisma to make his way without it. At the same time, he’s being outcrazied by several other candidates, so he can’t bring the teabaggers into enough of a coalition to rise in the polls.
Snarki, child of Loki
Looking for a Cruz/Rubio Cuban/Cuban ticket.
If they can get Fidel Castro to endorse the Native Sons, it would be extra special.
ShadeTail
That Matt Bai article has a goddamned annoying autoplay video at the top.
oldgold
It seemed the pundits decided she was the winner before the “debate” started. I thought her answers were memorized snippets and poor. In particular, her statement that she would not talk to Putin while seemed beyond obtuse.
As far as her celebrated retort to Trump over her appearance – meh.
Morzer
@beltane:
Haley doesn’t add much to the ticket. If the GOP has to play defense in South Carolina, it’s all over. Plus, there are still questions about her alleged adultery and the sincerity of her conversion to Christianity. If the GOP want a woman governor for VP, Susana Martinez would be a better bet for them.
Samuel Knight
Few thoughts
The Matt Bai point is oddly correct – Kasich is the real alternative. Bush was always an incredibly stupid bet – last name, no charisma, etc. And has just proved in spades that the family is toxic.
These debates are giving tons of good press for the GOP. People who look at liberal websites know they’re nuts. But the DC establishment press is spinning it masterfully for the GOP.
And this campaign is really making quite clear that the DC establishment press is running a clear agenda. NY Times, Wash Post, and TV clearly wanted to:
– Take down Clinton
– Use whatever stuff they’re fed from the GOP operatives,
-Boost Fiorina so that the GOP would have a woman on stage,
– Ignore substance of anything being discussed.
– Make ridiculous comparisons between the 2 parties.etc.
This means that the Dems need to realize that the establishment press are the enemy.
Hillary and Bernie could make common cause on this and go out together going through all the silly, false and nuts stuff and being said. Could feed the news machine easily.
Waldo
@Morzer: Good point. I keep forgetting that this is going to be decided at some point by voters — not pundits.
Mike J
@Snarki, child of Loki: We’ll call them “roast pork” & “pickles.”
Debbie
@SenyorDave:
Romney in a skirt.
CONGRATULATIONS!
Mitt in a dress. The American people have already said no thank you to that.
Morzer
I do wonder if this is the cycle when the GOP finally stops nominating the “sensible” candidate and just lets its freak flag fly. Gingrich and Santorum did much better than one would normally have expected last time around and that might just have been the sign that the tectonic plates were shifting under the party bosses. It’s obvious that the RNC doesn’t matter any longer and without them to ride herd, I suspect that the base is finally going to pick a candidate they really want and the consequences be damned.
smintheus
Didn’t Fiornina set a time bomb under her candidacy last night with her opportunistic reference to her child’s death? She implied it was due to an addiction to illegal drugs, but apparently her 35 year-old stepdaughter died from abuse of alcohol and prescription drugs. So she’s riding her step-child’s coffin like a parade float up the wrong street.
beltane
@Morzer: Susanna Martinez would be a very smart pick for them, and also a little scary for our side. I just don’t see what Fiorina brings to the table either. A failed CEO, a failed Senate candidate, a woman whose life experiences are not all that relatable to most other women. Sarah Palin’s family dysfunction was something that resonated with many wingnut women, she was just like them but with nicer clothes. Fiorina has none of that. The Villagers may identify with her but not many other people will.
dedc79
Regarding Matt Bai’s piece – I think it’s wishful thinking on his part re Kasich (“surely they’ll pick the one guy who doesn’t immediately come across as a psychopath”). Kasich is running to be President, but right now he needs to be running to be the GOP nominee. All the stuff he says that smacks of sanity to us turns off most GOP primary voters.
beltane
@smintheus: She did a terrific job of portraying herself as the Wicked Stepmother.
benw
@Samuel Knight:
I basically agree with all your points. As far as the news machine, they’ll wait until a nominee is chosen and then hammer them for all the stupid shit they’re saying in the primaries (see e.g. Romney, Mitt). In fact, it’s probably better for them to lay low now and let the Republican candidates continue to one-up each other. The bigger the pile of crazy, the harder the pivot is to the center.
Morzer
@beltane:
Carlella de Vil.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@shell: After their little stunt last night with the handpicked audience of JEB? supporters, I’d say they’ve clearly lost the ability to feel embarrassment or shame about anything.
That was fucking unreal.
Paul in KY
@Morzer: Haley would be their female attack surrogate on Hillary.
Patrick
@oldgold:
She must have forgotten that Reagan talked to Gorbachev many times, which by the way was a time when the Soviet Union posed a much larger threat to us than they do today.
schrodinger's cat
Carly may be the MSM favorite after this debate but she is not going to replace Trump with the base.
beltane
@benw: Bernie Sanders has always had a pretty good relationship with the Clintons. Despite what you may read here and at DKos, Bernie will be a devoted attack dog for the Democratic nominee when the time comes.
Amir Khalid
@Yatsuno:
I was just there. We’re at 1.608 TBogg units.
Morzer
@beltane:
Trump was partly right when he said that Carly had a facial problem. She constantly looks like the sourest, most uptight, most miserable schoolmarm in the world and I don’t see the GOP taking much of a liking to her because of it. Trump has many faults, but he’s definitely a happy warrior and that goes a long way with the GOP crowd.
Morzer
@beltane:
Bernie Sanders – the Schnauzer of Socialism!
schrodinger's cat
@Debbie: But without his pretty face.
Amir Khalid
@beltane:
If it comes to Sanders endorsing, or even campaigning for, Hillary, won’t he have the rabid Bernistas denouncing him as a sellout?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
About the only thing I saw from that debate, aside from the gif of Trump and Jeb? exchanging one of lamest low-fives in history, was Fiorinia snarling about Clinton lying about Benghazi. Must be so special for those four families to see those four corpses used as political props. Again.
schrodinger's cat
@Samuel Knight: I think you are giving MSM too much credit. They are nowhere near as powerful as you allude, either with the wingnut base or the electorate in general.
kc
Ha. Missed the debate, but I watched a few minutes of post-debate “analysis” on MSNBC
& Fox. They were all gushing over Fiorina and disparaging Trump’s appearance, demeanor, energy, etc.
I thought either Fiorina must have been REALLY good, or they have their marching orders. More likely the latter.
beltane
@Morzer: Republicans like their women to be either “hot” or matronly. Fiorina is neither of those things. Though she would never, ever admit to it, Fiorina’s life story reads like a right-wing caricature of 2nd Wave feminism, right down to the bitter, snarling demeanor and the barren womb.
Amir Khalid
@schrodinger’s cat:
This is a terrible thing for me to say, but every time I look at Carly Fiorna’s face now, I find myself thinking of the young Charlie Watts.
Billy K.
My God, can you imagine the simultaneous ‘sploding of media heads nationwide if the general was woman vs. woman?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Morzer: I haven’t paid close attention, but I read a couple of years ago that Martinez didn’t want to/wouldn’t leave New Mexico because of a family member’s medical condition.
beltane
@Amir Khalid: I used to have a neighbor (I’m a Vermonter, by the way) who routinely wrote LTEs to the local paper denouncing Sanders as a corporate sellout and shill. The guy had a Hugo Chavez sticker on his car. These people do exist, they can also be ignored by the rest of us.
Paul in KY
@Amir Khalid: They better fuckin not….
rdldot
@dedc79: We can only hope.
Amir Khalid
Speaking of the Washington Post, has Jennifer Rubin picked her favourite Republican candidate yet?
Doug!
@Jeffro:
I think he overrates Kasich but I think he’s right that the establishment is rethinking Jeb, and is realizing that Walker is a moron. That leaves Rubio, Kasich, and Carly. I’m not sure why Carly’s off the table, but I can believe it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Good god.
Did Joe or Mika or any of their little playmates not the oddity of these words?
ETA: Do you remember the rubble? should be a burning tire around his neck
Morzer
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Isn’t she term limited? I think she’s in her final term as governor, so she might be more willing to leave for the VP slot, unless she’s planning a Senate run.
Betty Cracker
@oldgold: I thought Fiorina’s retort to Trump’s comments about her appearance was actually pretty effective. She didn’t get down on the mud with him, but it was designed to remind every woman who heard it of all the sexist louts they’ve dealt with in their careers. The rest of her performance was garbage, IMO, but that comment sorta resonated, for me anyway.
@CONGRATULATIONS!: The biggest media disgrace in my view is that they let Jeb get away with the “He kept us safe” line. If Rand Paul wasn’t an ambulatory Chia pet, he could have distinguished himself by asking if the rubble Jeb mentioned GWB standing in was naturally occurring rubble. God, what a bunch of liars and idiots.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Doug!: Barbara Boxer shredded Fiorina pretty well last night on the tweety show in about 90 seconds. I imagine Plouffe, Messina and the rest could find a new angle on her time at HP, and from what I was reading here yesterday her time at Lucent could be made to look almost as bad. I think she’s poison on a national ticket
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
@CONGRATULATIONS!: Not to mention every other question was a variation on “so and so called you a stupid poopy-face! How do you respond?” I felt like I was watching a Jr. High gossip circle rather than a presidential debate.
Morzer
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Fiorina was a wretched candidate in California and I doubt she’d look any better given more exposure.
Cervantes
@Betty Cracker:
Agreed. Short and resonant.
Agreed, again.
Plus it was a bit jarring to see that none of the other candidates called him on it.
shell
Well, his hair was stranger than usual. looked like he had it free-styled in a wind tunnel.
dedc79
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: If only Trump had said: “And what about that rubble? Who was President when that happened?”
As Jeb delivered that line you could see Trump was thinking about saying something. He chickened out.
Patrick
@Betty Cracker:
CNN currently has an article on its website where they claim to be fact checking the candidates. Not a fricking word about Jeb Bush’s lie about his brother keeping us safe. It just boggles the mind…
benw
@beltane:
You mean himself?
@Amir Khalid:
All hundred of them?
@Morzer: Sanders/Schnauzer 2016!
Mingobat f/k/a Karen in GA
Am I the only one that read the first paragraph of the Bai piece, immediately thought of Santiago, and cringed a little?
rdldot
@Betty Cracker: Tweety mentioned it in the aftershow.
Belafon
@Amir Khalid: We had the PUMAs in 2008, and they turned out to be a very tiny group. The same will happen here, whether it’s Clinton or Sanders as the nominee. Most of us will support either candidate enthusiastically.
Morzer
@benw:
Bernie Sanders – he’s his own best friend!
schrodinger's cat
@Amir Khalid: I have no idea who Charlie Watts is. I goes and googles now.
ETA: Done, and I think he looks better than Carly’s current wax face.
Morzer
@Mingobat f/k/a Karen in GA:
I read it and thought that Jeb! must have snored more resonantly than usual.
Mark B.
Carly is verbally adroit and says her lies with a lot of conviction. It’s a strategy that’s worked for Trump, so why wouldn’t it work for her? Of course, she’s not the natural comedian that Trump is, but she does a better job of sounding like she knows what she’s talking about [spoiler: she doesn’t].
Honestly, I don’t see this field winnowing anytime soon. Trump went down a notch or two, but nobody else went up enough to even catch up to him. It’s going to continue to be like a bar brawl with the participants breaking chairs over each other’s heads for a while, and that’s not a bad thing.
oldgold
@dedc79:
What if Trump had said, ” Tell that to people from the Big Easy.”
Mingobat f/k/a Karen in GA
@Morzer: @benw: My Iggy the Wonder Schnauzer approves. (OTOH, my Muppet, my mini-poodle mix, wonders where’s our Tony Blair?)
Cervantes
@beltane:
Not entirely fair. She helped raised her husband’s kids.
In fact, she mentioned one of them last night — and looking at that child’s life and death one might be tempted to question Fiorina’s skills as a mother — but absent more information I don’t think that would be fair, either, as parents can’t always be perfect or give their kids perfect lives.
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
I thought Kasich basically ate JEB?’s lunch last night – he came across as the competent, confident, articulate “grownup” GOP candidate. JEB? was terrible – he garbled his words on several occasions and really seemed dull and whiny rather than confident and articulate. In that sense I think Bai has a point but I’m not sure Kasich can do well enough with the base to win the nom. Then again, neither can Bush, and if the “smart” money that’s been backing Bush abandons him, well, you have a crappy candidate with no money, rather than a crappy candidate with gobs of money. JEB is finished if that happens.
dedc79
@oldgold: Another good one.
Or “Does ‘we’ include the thousands of American soldiers who died in Iraq and Afghanistan?”
Morzer
@Cervantes:
I think any candidate who goes after Carly as a failed mother is going to end up pulling the roof down on himself.
Botsplainer
@Morzer:
Botox will knock down the humanity in facial expressions. She appears to have availed herself of it,
Mark B.
@Patrick: I had to work hard to keep myself from throwing things at my TV at that moment. I satisfied the urge by shooting both middle fingers at Jeb and shouting ‘FUCK YOU’ loudly at the TV. The neighbors might have heard. I don’t think I’m going to watch the next Republican debate.
Amir Khalid
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?:
The childish name-calling has been the most interesting thing about this Republican nomination race, alas. None of the candidates has offered anything remotely interesting policy-wise, and the front-runner has even said he thinks policy is for losers. None is seriously offering a vision of where he or she would lead America over the next four or eight years. None seems to be facing the enormity of leading the world from the Oval Office.
Mark B.
@Cervantes: You can be the best parent in the universe, and sometimes kids have issues. I have nothing but sympathy for the tragic loss suffered by Carly Fiorina and her family. I still think she’s a terrible person and candidate, but I don’t think her family history has anything to do with that.
Paul in KY
@dedc79: We should have gone into Afghanistan after 911 (think Gore would have). Problem was that we were already looking at Iraq & probably, for evil political reasons, they didn’t want to get rid of their boogeyman (Bin Laden) that quickly.
Thus, I would only say ‘Iraq’ and leave ‘Afghanistan’ out.
SiubhanDuinne
@Amir Khalid:
That’s very nearly the Golden Mean, the Golden Ratio, the φ of T-Boggery.
Snarki, child of Loki
@Mark B.: ” It’s going to continue to be like a bar brawl with the participants breaking chairs over each other’s heads for a while, and that’s not a bad thing.”
IN-JUR-IES! IN-JUR-IES! GOOOOO INJURIES! CON…CUSSIONS! YAY!
Morzer
@SiubhanDuinne:
“The φ of T-Bogg” sounds like a Philip K Dick novel.
Mike E
Everybody knows, including the Donald, you don’t execute a roll-out pre-October. Troll-out, moar likely.
rikyrah
This is the GOP. This is who they’ve always been.
…………….
The ‘Everything is Bad’ party
The debate made it official: For the GOP, Morning in America is now Darkness at Noon.
By MICHAEL GRUNWALD
America’s potential, said Carly Fiorina, is being “crushed.” America’s military, said Marco Rubio, is being “eviscerated.” Working people, said Mike Huckabee, are “taking a gut punch.” The idea of America, said Bobby Jindal, is “slipping away.”
Donald Trump, as usual, went even further: “We don’t have a country.”
Last night’s Republican debate in the Reagan Library was not about Morning in America. It was more like Darkness at Noon. Jeb Bush did call for the party to embrace a Reaganesque sense of optimism, which he contrasted with “the Donald Trump approach of ‘Everything is bad, everything is coming to an end.” But with occasional exceptions, usually involving the softer-edged John Kasich, the Trump approach dominated. For five hours, the candidates stood in front of Reagan’s plane and described America as a declining nation in a dystopic world, as they pledged, to borrow a phrase, to Make America Great Again.
The big question of 2016 could well be whether Americans agree with the Republican portrait of Obama-era malaise. It was taken for granted last night that the national debt is out of control, the economy is deteriorating, the government is corrupt, and the world, as Lindsey Graham put it, is “on fire.” Rubio complained that “our left-wing government is undermining all the institutions that support the family.” Ted Cruz declared that the Iran nuclear deal would turn the Obama administration into the world’s largest financier of Islamic terror. Chris Christie said the middle class “is getting plowed over by Barack Obama.” The one thing the Republicans didn’t seem too concerned about was climate change, which they agreed was not a problem worthy of solutions that might increase utility bills at a time when average Americans, as Rick Santorum put it, “are losing ground.”
politico.com/agenda/story/2015/09/policy-analysis-cnn-gop-debate-000244
Cervantes
@schrodinger’s cat:
@Amir Khalid:
If that’s a terrible thing for you to say — if it is — then perhaps it’s because Fiorina has had to cope with breast cancer surgery, chemotherapy, and radiation therapy — and the ravages thereof.
Any woman who goes through all that and survives deserves a modicum of respect from the pig-likes of Donald Trump, whether her smile pleases him or not.
That Fiorina might not want (us) to provide equivalent health-care for other women — now there’s a criticism I could endorse whole-heartedly.
And here’s another.
Morzer
@Cervantes:
Failing to register that domain is beyond a rookie mistake for Fiorina. She’s just not ready for prime time – and has apparently learned absolutely nothing from her disaster in California.
Jeffro
@Doug!:
Yeah, it’s quite possible that the Establishment has decided these are not the horses they want to ride in on. Trump has pretty well gelded Bush these past few weeks (which imho was half of his reason for running – to make sure Jeb! was not the nominee). I never really understood Walker’s appeal to voters or the Establishment, other than he was good at taking orders from the Kochs.
Rubio can take orders just as well without sounding like such a one-note doofus.
shell
“Remember The Alamo!” – Compelling
“Remember the Rubble” – Not so much
beltane
@Mark B.: Fiorina is the one who brought up her step-daughter’s death looking to score political points off it. As a mother, I would never think to do such a thing, but then I am not an evil, soulless Republican. We can be high-minded on this blog, but people in the real world are going to say what they’re going to say.
Cervantes
@Mark B.:
She would make an awful president.
Morzer
@shell:
Maybe in a couple of years time they can add “Remember the Rubio!” to their list of slogans glorifying disastrous defeats.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@rikyrah: Here’s how a right-winger responds
Cause 2015 is just like 2008! These fuckin’ people
feebog
Fiorina exposed Trump for the Bully/Coward that he is. Don’t know if it will make much difference to the crazies supporting him, but I thought that line was perfect.
Mark B.
It’s kind of amazing how well the Republicans have been able to sell the public on the decline of western civilization, when in fact, things are going relatively well, especially considering that in 2008, we were headed into the second great depression. That got headed off, and although growth has been relatively slow, we’re recovering as a nation. In fact, the US economy is doing better than any other large economy in the world. But you would never know it if you listened to the Republican candidates or the media.
schrodinger's cat
After the horrid Republican debate we need a respite, a heartwarming story or a kitteh, or better yet a heartwarming story with a kitteh in it.
Waldo
@dedc79: Yeah, Trump could have floored him there — maybe for good. Wouldn’t be surprised to see Trump call him out on later, for what that’s worth.
Seanly
DIdn’t watch the debate. My wife is in the bank for Bernie and, along with me, will vote for whomever the Democratic candidate is. However, she keeps asking me who I would like in the Republican group if I had a gun to my head. I said they could just shoot me. All of them have odious policy positions. Plus I’d hate to see what would happen to our country if the Republicans had the House, Senate, Presidency & Supreme Court all under their fascist thumb.
Mark B.
@Cervantes: That goes without saying. Anyone who can turn a great company like HP into trash would do even worse to the United States.
beltane
@Cervantes:
Does Dick Cheney also deserve our respect for surviving his heat transplant? In my world, horrible people do not become worthy of our respect because they have survived illness. Death is the ultimate destination for us all, staving off the inevitable for a time does not make one praiseworthy. It’s what one does with their life that matters, not how long one manages to survive.
Belafon
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Economic collapse only affects the little people.
Cervantes
@dedc79:
@oldgold:
Excellent retorts both.
dedc79
As depressing as the debates are (I think our country would be in much better shape if we had more than one sane/competent political party to choose from), the Dems really couldn’t have scripted them any better than they’ve gone.
The campaign ads will write themselves.
The candidates who are best equipped/situated to win a national election are some variation of flailing/being ignored/not “conservative enough.”
None of the top eleven are likely to bow out anytime soon.
Trump’s continued presence ensures that there will be lots more infighting, immigrant bashing, race-baiting, childish attacks, all of which may not bother primary voters but will bother a lot of election day voters.
The GOP continues to think that they can immunize themselves from charges of sexism by having a token female candidate, from charges of racism by having a token black candidate, and from charges of being anti-immigrant by having a few Cuban American candidates. They are wrong, but they’ll never learn.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Looking around for any Villagers who actually noticed the “Remember the rubble”. I don’t know this guy but he writes for Vanity Fair and Newsweek (which I thought had been sucked up into the Daily Beast)
How is it incomprehensible if you’ve paid any attention to the political media over the last fourteen/four years? This is galling, but not new.
Elizabelle
You heard it first from Andy Borowitz:
I trust Borowitz over Glenn Kessler any damn day of the week.
schrodinger's cat
@beltane: Thanks! Besides what do cosmetic procedures done to your face have to do with breast cancer survival?
benw
@Elizabelle:
That 4% is when they said their own names.
Cervantes
@beltane:
All I can suggest is that you read again what I wrote there.
JPL
@beltane: In fairness, this is the comment that should have been highlighted.
That Fiorina might not want (us) to provide equivalent health-care for other women — now there’s a criticism I could endorse whole-heartedly.
I really don’t care about Carly’s looks but the idea that she was health care for herself and not others means she is more narcissistic than Trump.
Elizabelle
@benw: And stated their marital status. At least, I presume.
Cervantes
@schrodinger’s cat:
I hope you never find out.
raven
@dedc79: ding
BR
I wish Obama were running…he’d easily be able to mock Trump in a way that Clinton or Sanders (or any of the GOP clowns) just don’t have the skills to do.
One line of mockery is obvious to me: “Trump ran a *money-losing* casin0. Think about that. In a casin0 the house always wins, right? Trump was the house, and he still found a way to lose.”
schrodinger's cat
@Cervantes: That sounds ominous. Besides Carly Fiorina’s looks are a distraction and ultimately don’t matter. What matters are her policy stances.
Jeffro
@Seanly:
The Republic would probably…probably…survive if Kaisch were president. Go with that and live to fight another day (or election cycle)
beltane
@schrodinger’s cat: None of them are winners in the looks department.
benw
@Elizabelle: We’d better see the long form birth certificates and marriage licenses before we believe they’re not lying about that. And we’ve recently learned that some licenses are more valid than others…
BR
I wish Obama were running…he’d easily be able to mock Trump in a way that Clinton or Sanders (or any of the GOP clowns) just don’t have the skills to do.
One line of mockery is obvious to me: “Trump ran a *money-losing* c*s*no. Think about that. In a c*s*no the house always wins, right? Trump was the house, and he still found a way to lose.”
(Damn moderation…)
beltane
@Jeffro: If I had to choose one of the Republicans, it would be George Pataki, or as my mother used to call him, Governor Patooti.
schrodinger's cat
@beltane: True. Rubio is not too bad but I don’t find stupidity attractive.
Jeffro
@Amir Khalid:
I’m going to go out on a (very safe) limb and say Rubio, Christie, Kaisch, and Fiorina.
(runs and checks)
Actually, it was Fiorina, Christie, Jack Tapper(!?!), and Rubio. Jennifer, Jake is just a pipe dream, give it up!
beltane
@schrodinger’s cat: Rubio is cute but dumb. Jeb looks kind of like my husband. It is starting to bother me. I hope Jeb’s campaign ends soon.
Cervantes
@schrodinger’s cat:
“I hope you find out” might have been ominous — but it’s the opposite of what I said.
In any event I agree with the rest of your comment.
Jeffro
@beltane: yes – good point (I was thinking only of the grown-ups’ table). “PresidentPataki” – now there’s a strong password for you, not even a supercomputer could arrive at that combination.
Cervantes
@beltane:
Yikes!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Jeffro: I’m a bit surprised at the order. I guess Florin my-good-friend checked BiBi and made J-Rube think of Willard. Rubio has apparently been studying foreign policy with Professor Kristol, which I would think would bump him up above Christie, but maybe she thinks BullyBoy will tell the Ay-Rabs to sit down and shut up. Or something.
Cacti
Fiorina is like a real life Cruella De Vil.
I suspect she even has a fur coat made of Dalmatian puppies hanging in the walk-in closet.
NonyNony
@Jeffro:
Here’s the thing – with the exception of Trump, the rest of them would be pretty much the same. They’ll sign anything a Republican Congress sits in front of them. They’ll launch the same kinds of stupid wars and have the same kind of stupid foreign policy that costs us a whole lot of money and probably a whole lot of lives and gets us a whole lot of nothing in the end.
Trump is the exception because he might not actually sign anything a Republican Congress puts in front of him. He’d sign a whole lot of egregiously bad stuff, but he might also just veto stuff just to show them who the boss is. Also I’d be curious to know just how absurd his Supreme Court nominees might get.
Mark B.
@benw: But Ted Cruz’s real name is Rafael.
Cervantes
@NonyNony:
Richard Posner (7th-Circuit Reagan-appointee) and Peter Schuck (Yale Law) are two mucky-mucks who have backed him — on “anchor babies” and the Fourteenth Amendment.
japa21
Did not watch the “debate” as I had more important things to do. Clipping my toe nails, for example.
Reading all the comments here and elsewhere I find fascinating, however. However, reading all the post debate articles and comments must be very depressing for one person in particular, Scott Walker. The Koch’s golden boy’s name is almost invisible. Was he even at the debate last night?
benw
@Mark B.:
Okay, I’m willing to believe that Cruz is lying 100% of the time, even when stating his own name.
Thoughtful Today
!
Bush II “kept US safe” as long as you pretend that 9/11 and the murderous Iraq War debacle didn’t happen.
Thoughtful Today
Yup.
“… whether it’s Clinton or Sanders as the nominee. Most of us will support either candidate enthusiastically. “
Archon
For the largest applause line of the night to be Bush “kept us safe” is so absurd and Orwellian it defies analysis.
redshirt
Here’s some “research”:
A quick dip into the cesspool of FreeRepublic tells me they love Trump, and Cruz. They still like Sarah, but have turned on Glenn Beck, Fox, and even NewsMax. Which is hilarious. Cruz seems to be their second favorite.
As for normal people not paying attention to the debate, I must say I felt it a bit disconcerting how much sports radio and sports blogs were talking about it last night, again, all very Trump related.
ET
After reading that piece and squaring that with my thoughts I wonder how bad JEB! actually wanted to run – at least in 2016.
First, he came to GOP candidate crowd later than someone who really, really wants it – particularly one whose father and brother were president. Second, nothing he has done/said makes me really feel his is really running – or at lest running to win. Maybe he though his name and the blessing of the GOP establishment would make it an automatic get, but that doesn’t feel right to me. He hasn’t been a candidate or official since leaving the governorship. Since then the Bush name was a bit of a dragand I wonder if he just though his opportunity was ruined by 43. I am sure when he was governor and before Obama was elected – at least though Dubya’s first term – that he thought was a lock to be president, but after Dubya’s second term and what he has or hasn’t been doing since Obama, hasn’t indicated to me that that he was looking to run.
I have felt that he was convinced to run by himself and other. The Establishment looked at all of the early declared candidates (not the ones that were expected to declare but hadn’t yet) and they were so weak and unappealing in a general election. They all thought he would ride in to the rescue and because he is a Bush and was a governor and was the establishment candidate, that everyone would just get in line (after all that is what Republicans do) and then they could commence to beating up Hillary. That is hasn’t happened that way put his campaign in a position they never conceived they would actually be in, and now they don’t know what to do.
Matt McIrvin
@RP: I think the anti-immigrant stuff goes deep, maybe deeper than most ostensible conservative causes. Though it’s anecdotal on my part. It’s part racism, part anxiety about language (if those things can even be separated). “Why should I press 1 for English?” seems to get a lot of white Anglo Americans irrationally exercised even if they haven’t actually had to press 1 for English in years.
A few years ago my wife had a creepy conversation with someone in a supermarket who cooed approvingly over our very blond little daughter, and then started going on about how it was so nice to see blond kids around here for once, “if you know what I mean.”
There’s a lot of ugly out there, a lot of people who feel like their sort of people are dwindling in society and they have to do something about it. The election of Obama freaked them out horribly. But until now, recent major Republican candidates have embraced this only under layers of code. The question is whether the demographic situation has already sufficiently changed that this attitude can’t win.
Bobby Thomson
@Elizabelle: 300 comments or more. We do it all the time.
Cervantes
@Archon:
These are badly damaged people we’re talking about.
Trentrunner
The “Blame 9/11 on Bush” boat sailed in 2004, when Kerry refused to go after Bush on it.
Imagine if 9/11 had happened on a Dem president’s watch.
We wouldn’t have had another Democratic president for 20+ years. That’s how effective Repub blaming would have been.
We really could up our game in this department. Enough with the “don’t look back” and not playing the blame game.
Kerry should have said in 2004:
“Bush let 3000 Americans be murdered on U.S. soil. He should have resigned in shame, but we can now do for him what he would not do for his country.”
Brachiator
@Betty Cracker:
Good point. Makes sense. It will be interesting to see if this influences Trump’s polling among women, which has been higher than his male support. Also, some see Trump as insulting almost everybody, so I don’t know that the impact of this exchange will be viewed as particularly meaningful with debate watchers.
I didn’t watch all of the debate, but I did watch this part. The GOP need to deny the Iraq fiasco and the fact that Bush did not keep us safe is astounding. The debate moderators may not have wanted to inject an inconvenient truth into the proceedings so that they would not be viewed as editorializing, but the refusal of any of the presidential contenders (with the near exception of Paul) to honestly address the issue was just unbelievable.
Cervantes
@Trentrunner:
That would not have been an improvement.
Felonius Monk
Maybe someone has already said this, but if Trump had never made his comment about Fiorina’s looks, would she have even been included in last night’s debate? I doubt it.
schrodinger's cat
According to NYT Carly is going to help the Republicans with women voters. Just like Sarah Palin did, I suppose.
SWKELLOGG
@Elizabelle: Something that’s@Samuel Knight: The press needs to maintain parity for the sake of the horse race. Anything that attempts to disrupt that delicate balance will be disregarded or countered with sexier nonsense.
Elizabelle
@Bobby Thomson: Thanks Bobby. Knew it was some multiple of 100, but didn’t remember which …
Go BJ commenters!
I gotta get off the internets or gonna lose my day, like yesterday. Check back with you all later.
retr2327
At the kiddie table debate last night, Lindsay Graham said, quote, “Hillary Clinton has a list a mile long to help the middle class.” Somebody needs to get HRC’s campaign to put that into a commercial, stat.
schrodinger's cat
@Matt McIrvin: I agree, the anti-immigrant stuff goes deep. I also think it cuts across party lines.
ETA: Hasn’t the language stuff always caused anxiety though? Immigrants from previous eras have been considered suspect because they weren’t English speakers to begin with.
Elizabelle
@schrodinger’s cat: I saw that headline.
And corrected it mentally to read
JustRuss
I could only stand about 20 minutes of the train wreck, the constant refrain from all the candidates about what dire straits our country is in was ridiculous. Compared to where we were at this point in Shrub’s presidency, we’re on top of the frickin world.
Besides not answering any actual questions, Trump looked strange–red faced, and something about his eyes were just off. Fiorina did a good job of asserting herself and delivering some pretty crazy ideas. Given her track record, why anyone would pay any attention to her is beyond me, the fact that she’s a somewhat serious contender for the nomination is mind boggling.
Thoughtful Today
“I trust Borowitz over Glenn Kessler any damn day of the week. ”
And doubly so on Thor’sDay.
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
@Amir Khalid: The only guy with an actual policy proposal is JEB? and his is just a warmed over version of his brother’s budget busting tax cuts. We’re on target to be running a surplus again as early as 2017, just in time for another Bush to blow it on tax cuts for the rich…again.
Brachiator
@redshirt:
Trump comes across as more like a real person, an ordinary guy, who talks straight and says what the average person is thinking.
It kinda makes sense that the sports radio world might talk about him. And note that this might also include people who disagree with him. Trump makes the average person feel like they can participate in the political discussion.
Elizabelle
@schrodinger’s cat: I would guess a good part of Democratic anti-immigrant sentiment might be fear of economic displacement.
I wish the Democratic party would honestly address that. They do not. We have a new economy and a somewhat jobless recovery for many Americans. Too many Americans. And we don’t have, and never had, the social safety net of advanced European democracies.
No doubt some Democratic anti-immigrant sentiment is racial. But it’s a mistake to think that is all that’s behind it.
Witness Germany and the Scandinavian countries viewing (well-educated) Syrians as economic lifeblood.
We have so many people to put to work here, in reasonably paying jobs.
schrodinger's cat
@Elizabelle: I think GOP has the crazy segment of the electorate cornered even without CF.
dedc79
CNN debate ratings: 14.7 overnight. 20+ million viewers.
Elizabelle
@schrodinger’s cat: No doubt!
Catch y’all later.
bystander
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I hate to be happy because of someone’s misfortune, but hotdiggety dog. That’s the best news I’ve heard today.
schrodinger's cat
@Elizabelle: You are right, economic anxiety and also post 9-11 paranoia have added to the anti-immigrant fervor.
Mike J
@dedc79: Fewer than 1 out of 15 Americans watched.
Barry
@Doug!: “I think he overrates Kasich but I think he’s right that the establishment is rethinking Jeb, and is realizing that Walker is a moron. That leaves Rubio, Kasich, and Carly. I’m not sure why Carly’s off the table, but I can believe it.”
It’s sounding more and more like 2012, where the GOP frantically ran through candidate after candidate, trying to find one who wouldn’t go up in a poof of smoke when the spotlight hit them.
redshirt
@Brachiator:
No doubt. But it should be noted that sports programs rarely ever touch the subject of politics. It’s why a lot of people listen to sports radio/tv in the first place.
So to see them all talking about it represents… something.
Matt McIrvin
@schrodinger’s cat: I know self-identified liberals who go way off the reservation and hard right on this one issue.
They insist that you don’t know what it’s like if you don’t live in a place like their town that is being overrun with Mexican illegals. Well, maybe I don’t: around here the Hispanic population is mostly Puerto Rican and Dominican (and the Puerto Ricans, of course, are all natural-born US citizens).
And, in fact, I think that it’s a genuine problem if a large fraction of the local population is people who are not in the country legally, because that opens the door to all sorts of abuses and market distortions.
But, much as with drugs and crime, the illegality is what causes most of the trouble. Fixing that might be politically impossible, but it’s worth saying.
There’s also the fact that so much of the discussion is divorced from reality: Obama actually cracked down hard on undocumented immigrants, by historic standards, and new immigration from Mexico has declined to a trickle (though Central Americans do come through Mexico). But in the Republican universe, the borders have been opened wide.
Thoughtful Today
While the comparisons between Trump and Sanders are generally absurd, both have tapped into the economic insecurities being felt by a massive number of Americans.
Trump’s solution is Trump.
Sanders’s solutions are specific and achievable: “Investments in infrastructure, University educations, and healthcare”, for starters.
schrodinger's cat
@Matt McIrvin: Many people have no idea of how the immigration system in this country really works. Unless they or their families have immigrated in the recent past, they have no idea how Byzantine the current system is. Otherwise they wouldn’t say things like anchor babies and that the illegal immigrants should just have come legally like their great grandpa did.
ETA: That ignorance along with xenophobia makes immigration an easy issue to demagogue.
Matt McIrvin
Establishment types have been predicting the imminent rise of Kasich for many months now (I remember Forbes magazine cheerleading for him and insisting that the nomination was his to lose). He’s still way down in the weeds in the national polls, and I don’t see anyone other than political junkies and a few money Republicans even talking about him. I guess I’ll believe it when I see it.
Barry
@oldgold: “What if Trump had said, ” Tell that to people from the Big Easy.””
The Base doesn’t care about New Orleans; after all, it was just a bunch of ‘Them’ drowning.
The Base doesn’t care about 9/11, except as an excuse; after all, it was just a bunch of ‘Them’ dying.
Slightly different ‘Them’, but in both cases the sort of people the Base despises.
Remember when Ann Coulter talked sh*t about 9/11 widows? No backlash from that.
Remember when Dubya called off the search for OBL and said that he didn’t care? No backlash there.
Remember when Obama killed OBL? Temporary celebration, then The Base went right to downplaying it.
Jeffro
@NonyNony:
Me too, but only in the gabbing-at-the-office-water-cooler sense. Not up for seeing it in real life, no way no how no sir.
gene108
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I’ve heard Republican talking heads rolling out the line “there were no terrorist attacks, when Bush, Jr. was President” for years now. I think early in Obama’s first term there was an underwear bomber that got all the GOOPERS into a tizzy. Edit: So the GOOPERS rolled the line out to remind everyone how Republicans were strong and Obama is weak.
I think 50% of the time the media types would call the Republicans on it and ask “what about 9/11/01?”
So they modified their line to be “no terrorist attacks after 9/11/01” though some of the bolder ones still go with the original lie.
What bothered me more was the outright lies about Planned Parenthood.
You had at least a half a dozen of those asshats talking about the doctored videos about Planned Parenthood employees harvesting fetuses to sell on the open market, which has been debunked repeatedly. Yet no one on the CNN panel of “experts” bothered to tell them they were basing their decision on a lie.
At some point, when politicians outright lie they should be called for it, but it just doesn’t happen.
Matt McIrvin
@Barry:
As a symbol, I think. They care about “9/11” deeply, but their concern has nothing to do with the actual details of the event or the actual people who died and suffered; it’s about 9/11 as an injury to the national honor, and as synecdoche for the Others everywhere out in the darkness who are always coming to kill us all. And, yes, as a casus belli, as you said.
In the early months after the event, I recall seeing some right-wing types temporarily talking about New York City as the one part of the Northeast that was actually OK and worth saving. It didn’t last very long.
Jeffro
@JustRuss:
And that is a great argument to make in the general election, as long as the Dem candidate adds, “But I know many people are still very dissatisfied…angry, even. You know why? _______ (and then proceed to lay out how all of the economic gains still go to the top 1%, how the GOP-controlled Congress blocks even the simplest, most beneficial things, etc)”
Cervantes
@gene108:
With these clowns it would take a lot less time to make a note of it when they speak the truth (even if by accident).
BobS
Paul’s remarks on avoiding wars on other countries and on drugs made him the winner on my scorecard. I also like Trump’s ideas on tax reform. He may have lost himself some Republican support when he used “Democratic” to describe the other party.
Huckabee’s body language and facial expressions reminded me of Nixon. Fiorina could be Ann Coulter’s somewhat saner older sister. On the other hand, Rubio reminds me of a generic annoying younger brother. Bush seems to be blessed with his real brother’s second-rate intelligence and his father’s third-rate charisma (and I didn’t understand Trump not swinging at the flat 85mph fastball down the middle of the plate, i.e. ‘he kept us safe’ — I guess 9/11 is too sacred to the Republicans to go there). I enjoy it that all the bodies on stage forces most of them to come off as over-eager/obnoxious in order to force the camera on themselves.
Cervantes
@Matt McIrvin:
Or why the act was perpetrated in the first place.
Barry
@NonyNony: “Here’s the thing – with the exception of Trump, the rest of them would be pretty much the same. They’ll sign anything a Republican Congress sits in front of them. They’ll launch the same kinds of stupid wars and have the same kind of stupid foreign policy that costs us a whole lot of money and probably a whole lot of lives and gets us a whole lot of nothing in the end.”
They’ll also appoint likely two Scalia/Alito clones, who will be even more likely to vote on a party line.
They’ll also restock the rest of the judiciary with Scalia/Alito clones.
They’ll f*ck up the economy again, long before we’ve really recovered.
And the horrible, sick joke is that ‘with the exception of Trump’ really means that Trump would do far, far worse.
goblue72
@Archon: The GOP base believes the President is a secret Kenyan Muslim, that the county’s economic doldrums are entirely the fault of Messicans, that climate change is a libtard conspiracy, that despite all signs to the contrary they too can be rich someday, and that the Earth is only 6,000 years old.
The GOP base is the rich (who own the party) and a swimming pool of morons.
SiubhanDuinne
@Thoughtful Today:
Jeffro
Wow Ann Coulter – that is some rant!
talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/ann-coulter-jews-rant
I think this is the real her and not her usual performance art self, too!
AxelFoley
@SiubhanDuinne:
Shit, I almost read that as ‘T-Buggery’.
MCA1
The Establishment doesn’t actually like Carly or want her to win, and neither does the media. The point here for them is “Holy shit, we need someone to start taking Trump down a peg.” They can’t have Jeb or Kasich or Rubio do so at this early stage for fear of peaking too early. So, there’s Fiorina just waiting for the opportunity to rise. It’s symbiotic – she knows she has no chance without a power boost here, so she’ll take it for the window of opportunity provided and hopes she can milk more out of it than anyone expects, and the establishment is more than willing to give her that sliver of a chance for the demolition she might be able to wreak on Donald. Her role here is to raise the “non-Trump, we want a same person” tide for the later benefit of others.
AxelFoley
@beltane:
This.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@schrodinger’s cat: Lol. Bullshit. Appearance matters a lot in American politics. Had Reagan looked like Nixon, he wouldn’t even be a footnote in history. Had Nixon looked like Reagan, we’d probably all be radioactive dust.
Do you think the GOP won’t go after Clinton’s looks? Good God, they’ve only been doing it for just about 25 years now. Her and her daughter’s looks as well! Do you think Rush Limbaugh ever apologized for saying that Chelsea looked like a dog? Of course not. If the GOP is willing to use a weapon, we had better be willing to use it as well.
And speaking of, here is an undeniable fact: Carly’s Uncanny Valley of a face is going to be huge problem for her in both the primary and the general.
BobS
@Jeffro: Most of what she tweets is pretty accurate, surprisingly so for Ann Coulter (you can tell it’s really her by the remark on immigrants). But I’m guessing you’re taking exception to the “fucking Jews” phrase when she alludes to obeisance to Israel (which fortunately is rare in the Democratic Party).
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Jeffro: There’s a whole lot of truth in that series of tweets. Hope she doesn’t walk it back, it would be the one actual service she’s ever performed for America in her entire life.
schrodinger's cat
@CONGRATULATIONS!: I agree that the Dems should use every weapon they have, to win. Because as some wise man has said before, politics is war by other means.
Another Holocene Human
@Morzer: Rubio, funny story, got into office with teabagger support, even though he’s a company man through and through. Like with their other darling, Scotty Brown, who, surprise! was a Republican from New England (=RINO), Rubio disappointed out of state GOPers early by not being, in fact, crazy.
Everything Rubio touches turns to shit, though, so there’s that. I hope he loses that Senate seat by an embarrassing margin.
SiubhanDuinne
@AxelFoley:
As a matter of fact, and because I am actually a 10-year-old boy, that’s why I coined it!
goblue72
@Jeffro: When you cut through her crude Don Rickels sense of humor, there’s a whole LOT of truth in this tweet of hers – “How to get applause from GOP donors: 1) Pledge to start a war 2) Talk about job creators 3) Denounce abortion 4) Cite Reagan 5) Cite Israel.”
If a liberal tweeted that, we’d be uprating and applauding it.
pamelabrown53
@beltane:
The problem with Rubio’s “cuteness” is that instead of looking youthful and vigorous, he looks more like a balding preteen who hasn’t shed his baby fat. I know, I’m awful!
JPL
@Jeffro: Once she turns her rage on the black guy, she will be welcomed with open arms by the right wing media.
Another Holocene Human
@beltane: They don’t vote for matronly women. They “like” them as political wives only.
Cervantes
.
Cervantes
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Republicans willingly use racist tropes (I won’t call them arguments) every day. You want the Democrats to do so as well?
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Inclined to agree.
@schrodinger’s cat:
You may be thinking of Clausewitz. Here’s what he actually said:
You really think this is true?
Ksmiami
@CONGRATULATIONS!: I would argue that mitt wasn’t as much of a turnoff as icarly
Cacti
@Elizabelle:
Economic anti-immigrant sentiment on the left is based on a fallacy called “Lump of Labor”, i.e. immigrants are taking our jobs because there’s a fixed and finite amount of jobs to be had or that the economy can produce.
Under Keynesian economics, the above view doesn’t hold up, because population increase boosts aggregate demand for goods and services, and the primary driver of economic growth is aggregate demand. The immigrant population also tends to have the effect of increasing the variety of goods and services available in a domestic market.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Howard Dean pushed back hard on Nicole Wallace (ex-Palin handler) when she started to say “Carly told the truth!”. He could have pushed back harder, maybe would have if the MSNBC host had been some other than ex-altar boy Lawrence O’Donnell, who frequently feels the tug of Mother Church
Matt McIrvin
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
The problem with that reasoning is collateral damage. If you attack somebody basically for being female (which is what this is), you’re attacking women in general, not just your target, and you’re making life harder for all women.
AxelFoley
@SiubhanDuinne: LOLOLOL
NonyNony
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Here’s the thing – Democrats aren’t Republicans.
Republican politicians can make fun of a Democratic woman’s appearance with impunity because their voters (even the women) love it when they’re assholes. The handful of supporters who say something like ‘whoa – that’s crossing a line’ will a) say it very softly and b) get shouted down for being “politically correct”.
Democratic politicians who make fun of a Republican woman’s appearance will face blowback. Lots and lots of blowback. Bad enough that it could kill a campaign. That’s why they don’t do it. Because Democratic voters punish the hell out of that kind of shit.
Democrats can’t win elections by acting like Republicans. This is not true of just policy questions, but also of just how they run campaigns in general. Mocking people for their appearance is a not-Democrat thing to do and so campaigns avoid it. (As they should – there’s nothing of substance that gets added to a debate by mocking someone’s appearance.)
boatboy_srq
@MCA1:
Problem here is that if they keep waiting, those
wankersesteemed gentlemen won’t peak at all.boatboy_srq
@SiubhanDuinne: That’s an amazing costume, SD.
Betty Cracker
@Another Holocene Human: Rubio is not running for his senate seat again, so you won’t have the pleasure of seeing him lose. You’re right that he’s not crazy. He is, however, a blithering moron — just as dumb as Sarah Palin but more articulate.
Betty Cracker
@Jeffro:
A thousand times this. We’ll lose if we act like everything is okay now. We’ve climbed most of the way out of the smoking crater GWB left in his wake thanks to PBO’s leadership and political skills. But people are hurting and insecure, and they’ll spot bullshit happy talk a mile away.
Hoodie
I think Carly’s the flavor of the month and will fade because of her HP baggage. I think Bai may be correct that Kasich could be the refuge of the old establishment, but that doesn’t mean he gets the nom. With Jeb failing, there really isn’t anyone who can waltz in after Trump flames out. Could be a brokered convention. Kasich might emerge from that through some sort of coalition of the establishment and the fundies, but he might have to take on an odious running mate like Cruz to keep the fundies happy with the deal. I could be a bit worried by something like Kasich/Martinez. The rest besides Rubio are either too weird or are damaged goods. One potential problem for Kasich is that he keeps talking about great achievements in the ’90s – when Bill Clinton was president.
Bobby Thomson
@Cervantes: no Republican candidate is going to challenge the myth that Junior “kept us safe.” I don’t think even Trump would go there.
boatboy_srq
@SiubhanDuinne:
Tallying up the damage requires spelling it out.
Jeffro
@BobS: Not taking exception to it – I just didn’t remember her scorning pro-Israel stances by GOP candidates before. Funny to see the mask slip a bit
SWKELLOGG
@japa21: If you squinted with the contrast set just right there was an outline of something.
Bobby Thomson
@Cervantes: there’s a reason Schuck isn’t known for con law. Posner surprises me. He’s smarter than that.
Jeffro
@goblue72: I’m not down on it, not at all. I was shocked to see her ragging on the GOP candidates for throwing pro-Israel comments in there, much less this 5-point follow up.
Which does lead to the question: if Ann Coulter…Ann. F-in. Coulter. finally fessed up and admitted that it’s all been performance art, that she just wanted to show the world how shallow and reactionary the right wing in this country is, and she wanted to join the Dems’ big tent in order to save her soul…would we let her? And if so, what would the preconditions be?
agorabum
@dedc79: Bai identified that the Republican Establishment can rally around Kasich if Bush falters. But the base remains another story – they would still rather burn the world down.
Brachiator
@redshirt:
I am not much into sports at all. But I would sometimes listen to sports talk radio precisely because it was an alternative to listening to political programs.
But I would also notice that on the Los Angeles area sport talk radio station, a mix of local and national shows (KFI), some of the hosts would go off on minor tangents attacking Obama, as though real white guy sports fans were true blooded American patriots.
This almost sent me to BBC gardening shows.
Yep. Hopefully it’s not contagious.
Matt McIrvin
@Jeffro: It’s not as if there’s an admissions test. If Lyndon LaRouche could insist he was a Democrat, anyone can.
Jeffro
@agorabum: Kaisch is for expanding Medicaid (under Obamacare) and is not sufficiently apocalyptic about the Iran deal. He also appears to understand that governance sometimes involves compromise. My take is that he’s barely palatable to the Establishment and would be seen as at-least-as-bad-as-Bush by the Tea Party base.
In my dreams, Kaisch debates Cruz and crushes him – a stunning victory for the return of at least some amount of common sense in the GOP. In my nightmares, Bush or Kaisch puts Cruz on the ticket as VP to shore up their cred with the Tea Party. The worst of those nightmares involves a post-inauguration Bush or Kaisch, in a rush, or perhaps just very hungry, forgetting to have the presidential food taster try their eggs Benedict one fateful Sunday brunch…
Heliopause
Every post-debate poll had the same result. Trump by a mile, Fiorina a solid second, Rubio third. The only silver lining for GOPCentral was Carson bombing.
Trump is Trump. Fiorina is genuinely talented at reciting the movement conservative catechism but has no other political talent that I can discern. Rubio is, to put it mildly, green, and we’ve assumed all along that he’s really running for VP.
As mentioned above, Carson himself took care of GOPCentral’s Carson problem by putting everybody in the central and eastern time zones to sleep. Kasich was a hit with Matt Bai and nobody else. Bush is just pathetic. Nate Silver had some mildly positive things to say this week about Walker’s chances, which is undoubtedly why Walker finished dead last in the post-debate polls. Cruz and Huckabee I think will continue to suck up about 10% support between the two of them.
So yeah, it’s a huge mess for GOPCentral. As early as it is in the cycle they are running out of options, which I see in descending order as:
1. Detonate the Jeb Bunker-Buster ad bomb and pray.
2. Swallow hard, get behind Rubio or Kasich in spite of their obvious deficits and pray.
3. A coup.
4. Fiorina.
5. Trump.
Another Holocene Human
@Cervantes: WTF, my mother, grandmother, and great grandmother all dealt with the ravages of cancer and cancer treatment and not one of them had Carlyface, which is a combination of Botox, collagen injections, and possibly other, more subtle, nips and tucks. And believe me, Grannie had the means, okay, and with those Irish genes plenty of motives as well, but she kept her real face. (She did wear a wig, though. And got tired easily. Chemo sucks.)
Cervantes
@Another Holocene Human:
I wasn’t criticizing your mother, grandmother, and great-grandmother — wonderful people all of them, I assume, and however they dealt with their medical challenges is (to a first approximation) none of my business.
The point is, cancers and such are horrible things, existential threats that people have to deal with each in their own way, and (again, a priori) I don’t see the point of criticizing them for how they try to cope.
You don’t have to agree. If you think it’s a useful contribution, feel free to criticize Fiorina’s face. After all, Trump did.
Another Holocene Human
@Matt McIrvin: Did you catch that Republican strategist on public radio (long car ride, okay?) who stated that the “press one for English” stuff terrifies older GOPers and is motivating them but younger Republicans fundamentally don’t care about that stuff and when they hear the dogwhistle “Our immigration system is broken” they don’t hear “because Spanish speakers” they hear “bureaucratic nightmare that screws people who get in line while people who jump the line seem to get away with it”.
On another public radio program they were talking about the reform to the immigration system in the late 1960s and the stupid way it was set up (prioritizing family unification instead of first come first serve) but that nevertheless since the 70s the US has started resembling the UN a lot more. So GenX and after, we grew up in that world. Our classmates came from everywhere. I thought that’s what America meant.
Another Holocene Human
@Elizabelle: Bernie Sanders has certainly addressed it, in a way that many people find problematic. Sort of an object lesson as to why the Dems leave such statements to others.
And even organized labor has really stepped back from that sort of rhetoric. Immigrants are some of their most dogged, fearless, and eager organizers and new members.
Another Holocene Human
@redshirt:
They don’t talk much about politicians or elections, true.
They talk about political shit all the time. Race. Racism. Sex. Sexism. Glass ceilings. Black players and no coaches of color. Sexual minorities in the locker room. Economic issues. Poor boys getting penalized for accepting gifts of food. Middle class Black kids getting accused of taking illegal gifts when they (and mommy and daddy) bought their own shit. Intersections of race and class in the locker room. Bias. Journalism. Sports injuries. Regulation. Worker’s compensation. Healthcare.
No, they don’t talk about top marginal tax rates–except when they do–but they hash out all of the major issues of the day, in vernacular English, sometimes in a quite sophisticated way, sometimes artlessly stumbling around.
Another Holocene Human
@Matt McIrvin: All true and so very well said.
Another Holocene Human
@Barry: The last one is a bad example, as it truly embarrasses many of them that “that one” did it and their boy couldn’t. But the others are right on the nose.
redshirt
@Another Holocene Human:
Maybe, when an issue is hot in the news. For example, when Michael Sam came out and tried to make the NFL.
However, even then, these issues are usually handled without a partisan spin, and barely political at all. Another example – two local sportsguys are obvious conservatives and yet can discuss Management/Labor issues when it comes to the NFL and Brady and do so in a fairly logical and objective matters. It’s like when it comes to sports, the partisan switch gets flicked off.
For all these sports blowhards to actually break down Trump’s campaign to date is another ball game entirely.
Another Holocene Human
@Jeffro: This is the lady who called Katie Couric Eva Braun. It’s always projection.
Matt McIrvin
@Another Holocene Human: Encouraging, if true. There was a time in the very recent past when Republicans were trying to get out in front on immigration reform; if not 100% productively then at least it wasn’t this “build a gianter wall”, “deport ’em all” nonsense.
Jeffro
@Another Holocene Human: That is just weird…Eva Braun?? I may have to look this one up…
<>
…well, that was odd. Katie Couric is Eva Braun because she once said something about conservative christians that irritated Coulter, who decided to (according to Coulter) use liberals’ favorite tactic – calling conservatives Nazis – against them.
Ooookay, Ann, got it.
boatboy_srq
@Another Holocene Human: The dogwhistle is definitely changing, and the older dialect is increasingly hard for the younger generations to interpret.