Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Fuck the extremist election deniers. What’s money for if not for keeping them out of office?

Teach a man to fish, and he’ll sit in a boat all day drinking beer.

Let there be snark.

Conservatism: there are some people the law protects but does not bind and others who the law binds but does not protect.

Wow, you are pre-disappointed. How surprising.

Roe isn’t about choice, it’s about freedom.

“Everybody’s entitled to be an idiot.”

Battle won, war still ongoing.

“I never thought they’d lock HIM up,” sobbed a distraught member of the Lock Her Up Party.

The most dangerous place for a black man in America is in a white man’s imagination.

Balloon Juice has never been a refuge for the linguistically delicate.

If you’re pissed about Biden’s speech, he was talking about you.

Republicans are radicals, not conservatives.

“Can i answer the question? No you can not!”

The arc of history bends toward the same old fuckery.

It’s easy to sit in safety and prescribe what other people should be doing.

Republicans choose power over democracy, every day.

Speaking of republicans, is there a way for a political party to declare intellectual bankruptcy?

Joe Lieberman disappointingly reemerged to remind us that he’s still alive.

JFC, are there no editors left at that goddamn rag?

🎶 Those boots were made for mockin’ 🎵

You can’t love your country only when you win.

White supremacy is terrorism.

I was promised a recession.

You are here: Home / Music / Thursday Evening Open Thread

Reader Interactions

181Comments

  1. 1.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    Bill Clinton laying some truth on #BLM. I’m old enough to remember when Sanders was racist for silently turning his appearance over to them.

  2. 2.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    Has Hillary dropped out, yet?

    It’s a travesty that an unqualified woman is trying to take a job away from a man.

  7. 7.

    ruemara

    I’m packing up the downstairs library and alternatively wondering why I have so many books, finding ARCs I haven’t had time for and thinking I should see if there are any new books in beloved series’. I have a little book problem. And a little having to move half my stuff out of my house by myself problem.

  8. 8.

    Aimai

    When will our politicians learn? You can’t win with a protestor from your own side. Just nod your head and say “there is much in what you say…I look forward to working with you on this important matter.”

  9. 9.

    Major Major Major Major

    @David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/hillary-clinton-is-too-ambitious-to-be-the-first-f-11229

    The Onion, prescient once again.

    Hillary Clinton Is Too Ambitious To Be The First Female President

    COMMENTARY May 24, 2006

    I think it’s about time we had a female president of the United States. I don’t care what anyone says: Women can be just as smart and qualified as men—especially the clowns we’ve had in Washington lately. But Hillary Clinton? She’s just a little too ambitious to do what no woman before her has ever done.

  15. 15.

    dr. bloor

    @efgoldman:

    Can’t we argue about baseball, or which is worse, lutefisk or gefilte fish. or something?

    That’s like asking whether you’d rather have your daughter marry Cheney or Cruz.

  16. 16.

    Technocrat

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    Not going to end well. Bill doesn’t take kindly to being accused of racism, and this is headed in that direction.

    Hillary needs to get him on lockdown.

  17. 17.

    singfoom

    @efgoldman:

    Can’t we argue about baseball, or which is worse, lutefisk or gefilte fish. or something?

    I’ll argue about sportsball. Your $favorite_professional_sport is boring. The $governing_body of $favorite_professional_sport is organized as a non-profit and sucks money out of our communities while charging OUTRAGEOUS prices for tickets and concessions even after having taxpayers foot the bill for building the stadiums.

    Is that what you wanted?

  18. 18.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    2008 Redux: there were more than a few times Clinton supporters tried to smear Obama with the sexism charge on the flimsiest of pretexts.

  23. 23.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Alex.S: Good luck with that. Hillary already lit into #BLM and that was a tiny blip for a few hours.

  25. 25.

    raven

    Jamelle Bouie ✔ ‎@jbouie
    Black communities and elites at the time were divided about what to do on crime, and I think that’s been lost in our look back

  27. 27.

    Cacti

    Bill has no filter when it comes to campaigning for his wife.

    Keeping him on a short leash has worked well so far.

    I guess it wasn’t short enough.

  29. 29.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    Joe Trippi ‏@JoeTrippi 10h10 hours ago Maryland, USA

    If @hillaryclinton isn’t qualified to be President we’ll be waiting a long time for a woman who is. Just saying….

    93 retweets 130 likes

    Amanda Terkel @aterkel

    Problem w/ “unqualified” line is it’s personal for many women. Been told their whole lives they’re not qualified

    Retweets 162
    Likes 204

    Rebecca Schoenkopf
    ‏@commiegirl1

    after 18 years in newspapers, I was told a dozen times I didn’t have enough experience to be an alt weekly editor.

    every single one of them then hired either their 25-y-o news editor, or the sports columnist from the local daily

    Hannah Fine ‏@hannahbfine

    [email protected] is running for every woman who’s been told she’s not qualified, or that she’s too ambitious. Ready for April 19. #ImWithHer

    55 retweets 74 likes

    Amanda Marcotte ‏@AmandaMarcotte

    I predict delving into sexist swipes about ambition backfires on the Sanders campaign.

    31 retweets 51 likes

    Lauren Bans ‏@LaurenBans

    Another day, another old man telling the most qualified woman in the world she’s not qualified for the job.

    13 retweets 16 likes

    Kaili Joy Gray ‏@KailiJoy

    It’s her ambition that makes her unqualified, see?

    19 retweets 51 likes

    ¡Gabe! Ortíz @TUSK81

    Only a woman could earn a JD, be a two-term Senator, a Secretary of State, and STILL be deemed “unqualified” to be President by a man.

    Retweets 742
    Likes 921

    Lauren Whitehead ‏@LaurenNoJoCo

    Yes–if she is unqualified, no woman will ever be qualified.

    Darren Sands @darrensands

    I asked my Bernie caller, Lisa, why I shouldn’t vote for Clinton. “She wants to extend Obamacare. Obamacare…no offense, is a travesty.”

    Retweets 71
    Likes 80

    1:50 PM – 6 Apr 2016

    There’s no room in the “The People’s Revolution” for a woman.

    I’ve tellin you guys for 5 years that there was something wrong with him

  30. 30.

    TooTall

    New topic, if interested. Charles Barkley says that due to the new “Discrimination is A-OK” law in N. Carolina, the NBA should move next year’s All-Star game from Charlotte, NC. Assuming that you agree with Sir Charles, what would be the best way to lobby the NBA into such a move? The same would be true for any other high visibility event, such as the ACC football Championship game in Charlotte. How would you effectively lobby the ACC Commissioner’s office?

  31. 31.

    ruemara

    @Just Some Fuckhead: lit into? She’s been a surprising voice of reason, patience and humble about the consequences of the 94 crime bill. Bill can go pound sand until she tells him to come out and look snazzy for the First Dance.

  32. 32.

    Alex.S

    @Just Some Fuckhead: It’s possible to clash with protesters and be ok. It’s usually not a big deal and most candidates have experience with it. Partially neutralize them and talk about the stuff you want to talk about.

    Bill’s problem is that he defended the crime bill and attacked the protesters directly. There’s no value in the crime bill in today’s Democratic primary… the party and the candidates have moved on.

  33. 33.

    geg6

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    Maybe it doesn’t set off any alarms for you when men start complaining about how [insert female name] is just too, too ambitious, but every woman in America hears that alarm clanging away.

  34. 34.

    Cacti

    @TooTall:

    How would you effectively lobby the ACC Commissioner’s office?

    Identify the main corporate sponsor for the ACC championship game. If it’s someone other than Chick Fil A, chew on their ear about it.

    Follow the money.

  35. 35.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    @Just Some Fuckhead: He would NEVER had said that about a man.

    Face it. He NEVER once said George W. Bush was unqualified. NEVER.

    He has NEVER once said Donald Trump is unqualified. NEVER.

    eta: last week he was being interviews by Rachel Maddow the day Trump said women should be punished. He screamed at Rachel that Trump while Trump was wrong, minimum wage was a bigger issue.

  38. 38.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    “As an independent, I will not endorse a candidate in the Democratic primary, but I will campaign vigorously for Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton after one of them becomes the nominee,” Sanders said in a February 2008 statement.

    Sanders seemed to think HRC was qualified in 2008. There’s your reply, Dave.

  41. 41.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Cacti: What changed is he is trying to grab the same brass ring as she, and felt her comments prior to his were suggesting he is not qualified.

  42. 42.

    Alex.S

    @raven: There’s a reason that attacking candidates for supporting the crime bill has been only interesting for people already convinced — the Democratic party as a whole voted for the crime bill and it was their alternative to the Republican party’s crime bill. Getting into modern-day arguments about their history never really worked.

    However, the party has moved past that time and recently there’s a strong push to criminal justice reform and to recognize the problems with the crime bill. Current members of the Democratic party should not be defending it currently. There’s a lot of ways to pivot to what needs to be done now and not defending the past.

  44. 44.

    debbie

    @raven:

    I am with you. Other versions are good because the song is that good, but nothing will beat the original. I even prefer the studio to the live version.

  45. 45.

    Andy

    @geg6: Yeah, he didn’t say that. Unqualified to lead the U.S./World, I would concur. But neither is he. I’m just trying to get some table scraps of humanity back in this country.

  46. 46.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Cacti: I told you people to give him a couple interns to keep him busy but you were all “how dare you!”

  47. 47.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    I saw Ellen perform that song in a little bar outside Hartford a few years ago. Her voice is completely unique.

  49. 49.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    No way Hillary survives this.

    The pressure to drop is intensifying now that she’s been exposed as unqualified.

  52. 52.

    Technocrat

    @efgoldman:

    He is the undead. He will live forever.

    Ofc he’s going to live forever. You think the devil wants competition?

  53. 53.

    Germy Shoemangler

    @Technocrat: If I ever received a transplanted heart, I’d be intensely curious about the person it was taken from. Cheney has admitted in interviews he never gave the matter a moment’s thought.

  55. 55.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    I think some of Bill’s frustration is he has to keep campaigning over and over after he made it to the top of the mountain, killed it, retired and then almost died.

  56. 56.

    Hungry Joe

    My Padres set a record by getting shut out the first three games of the season. Well, if you don’t get shut out the first three games there’s no way to get shut out all 162, now is there? Onward and … downward.

    @Doug!: I’ve always liked Blind Faith. Even have the original LP with the, shall we say, provocative cover.

  57. 57.

    Bobby Thomson

    @raven: the problem is this was all about Bill defending his own crime bill record, not Hillary. The crime bill is personal to him so he focuses on it. It’s way down the BLM list of priorities. If I had to sum up BLM in one sentence, it’s “black people don’t deserve to be murdered in the streets by cops.” That’s got nothing to do with kids on crack in the 90s.

  59. 59.

    Joel

    @Just Some Fuckhead: “We expressed ourselves as the first amendment allows us to but what happens? We become the thugs,” Miles said, saying that security was now “standing over her.” ”

    Getting thrown out is kind of the point of this kind of protest, non?

  61. 61.

    debbie

    @geg6:

    A serious request: Can you link to where Sanders actually said that she was too ambitious or said she was unqualified because she’s a woman? I’m not finding anything on Google with these kinds of statements; only that he’s said she’s unqualified based on her past decisions as a senator (Iraq, banks, etc.).

    I’d really like to understand what’s caused this much bile. I’ve gotten into plenty of fights over this kind of thing in real life, so I’m not unsympathetic, but I’m just not able to find the exact quotes for myself.

  62. 62.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    Profiles in Courage:

    Only Sanders had the guts to call Hillary unqualified.

    Not even the Republicans had the guts to expose her lack of qualifications.

  64. 64.

    Germy Shoemangler

    @Just Some Fuckhead: There is something about the sociopathic personality that allows these people to rise, rise, rise in American politics and business.

    (although I’ve had more than a few of them stuck in middle-management positions try to make my job miserable)

  65. 65.

    mclaren

    Particularly interesting article about Trump at fivethirtyeight: “Trump’s new magic number is 40 percent of the vote.” The takeaway is that the vote share Trump needs to arrive at the convention with 1,237 keeps rising as he runs into headwinds in these latter primaries, but his popularity isn’t rising anywhere near as fast. This means that Trump is almost certain to arrive at the convention without the required number of delegates to win on the first ballot. Those two graphs really the story clearly.

    This leads to the delicious politico story “Trump has more than delegates to worry about in Cleveland”:

    If Donald Trump wants to ward off defeat at a contested convention, he’s got more than just a vote of the delegates to worry about.
    Every aspect of the Republican National Convention is a potential tripwire that motivated anti-Trump forces could deploy to waylay the mogul — from major processes to invalidate whole slates of delegates to minor inconveniences, like seating arrangements for delegates inside the arena, which could complicate negotiations if the convention becomes a free-for-all.
    Story Continued Below
    If Trump continues to lose local delegate fights at a rapid clip, he’ll be walking into a convention arena stacked with hostile delegates working to deny him the nomination. And those delegates can work arcane procedures and rules in ways large and small to impede his path.
    “Everything is consequential in a contested convention,” said former New Hampshire Gov. John Sununu. “You’ve got to pay attention to everything.”

  67. 67.

    TDVFZW

    @raven: A cover I’ve always liked.
    When you were young, did people ever tell you that you looked like Ginger Baker’s younger brother?

  72. 72.

    Technocrat

    @Germy Shoemangler:

    The term sociopath is overused and misapplied. Generally. But I think Cheney makes a solid case for it. Remember this?:

    Dick Cheney: I’m more concerned with bad guys who got out and released than I am with a few that, in fact, were innocent.

    @mclaren:

    #8 Will Amaze You!

  74. 74.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Origuy:

    Bill needs some practice in standing to the side and looking on in adoration

    Too bad Nancy Reagan died. She could have given him some great coaching.

  77. 77.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Hungry Joe: Thank you for your lovely compliment. It was an oasis in a desert of a week. And I still don’t have a way with commas.

  78. 78.

    Peale

    @Bobby Thomson: nope. It doesn’t. Did Bill just imply that BLM today is a front protecting street gangs? I believe he did. But your interpretation may vary

  79. 79.

    p.a.

    @TooTall: there’s already petitions from, oh who was it? Act Blue? Credo? Probably every prog organization out there. If you’ve had any contacts previously, check your inbox.

  81. 81.

    D58826

    @Betty Cracker: Only thing my Norwegian mother-in-law and I agreed on was lutefisk is terrible. My wife and her Irish/Penna. Dutch dad loved the stuff. Did seem like it worked well to take the wall paper off the wall.

    As for Bill and BLM there is a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on here. It is easy to spot the flaws in the 1994-1996 approach in 2016. In 1994-1996 a lot of people thought Clinton was doing the right thing. A lot of things have changed since then and the GOP has pushed for major cuts in safety net programs that make the problem worse.

    It’s not a racial thing but I remember years ago back in Penna., everyone agreed that the mental institutions were an expense failure and all they did was warehouse people. The better solution was to close the facilities and open community based half way houses. Well closing the hospitals had bi-partisan support. The community based solutions and the needed funding not so much. The result mentally ill people wandering the streets talking to themselves and the GOP arguing see those liberal solutions failed again. Now I’m not sure if the community based solutions would have worked but between no funding and NIMBY they were never tried. I think we have some of the same thing happening with the crime bill and welfare reform. Over time the GOP voted for more and more draconian sentencing and any democrat who opposed it was a bleeding heart soft on crime liberal. Welfare reform included work requirements and job training programs. Over time the requirements stayed in while the funding for training programs did not. GOP controlled states fell all over themselves to tighten requirements and find reason to throw people off of the system. Even today we have the GOP useless pushing drug testing, looking for ways to cut food stamps, refusing to provide extended unemployment and refusing to expand Medicaid under ACA. . One of the things that hid the impact in the late 90’s was the growing economy so a lot of folks did find jobs, maybe not great ones but they were off the welfare rolls. Obviously when the economy went south then the fl;aws in the system became obvious.

    It’s all fine and good to talk about standing on principle but if you keep losing elections the the wingnuts it doesn’t help anyone. Are the Clinton perfect – no. Could Bill have gotten a better deal – maybe. Is a lot of history being forgotten – yes

  82. 82.

    eclare

    @Cacti: Live in Atlanta, home of GA Tech, then Memphis, where everyone went to Ole Miss. You will notice a big difference.

  83. 83.

    Mnemosyne

    @Origuy:

    I can’t remember where I read it, but someone said that it’s always easier to forgive an insult or slight to yourself than it is to forgive one that was against a loved one. So while I understand why Bill lost his shit, he needs to sit down, shut up, and practice his adoring Nancy Reagan expression.

  84. 84.

    Ruckus

    That is one of my all time favorite songs. Has been for a very long time.
    And I like this version as well.

  85. 85.

    redshirt

    @Mnemosyne: Yep. A few prepared speeches to the right crowds. A few softball interviews. But otherwise, he’s the spouse of a Presidential candidate and there’s no reason he needs to be front and center.

  89. 89.

    WaterGirl

    Has J. Michael Neil been by with his good news yet? From the Kickstarter update:

    The bigger news is that the 2016 Independent Book Awards were announced this afternoon. Becoming Phoebe took the Bronze Medal for Best Regional Fiction – Midwest.

    So happy for you, JMN!!

  90. 90.

    Alex.S

    @D58826: The history is complicated. But the modern take is not. Say “There were parts we liked and parts that didn’t work out”.

    Which both Clintons have said during this campaign. But don’t defend it in modern terms and don’t directly attack people who are protesting.

    Talk about the future and the campaign’s policies.

  91. 91.

    WaterGirl

    @efgoldman: EF, are you doing something special with your block quotes? Your not, font size and margins seem different than they are for the rest of us.

  93. 93.

    Technocrat

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Welp, that’s pretty much a slam dunk then. No worries, anytime you want someone to describe “feelings” and stuff, I’ll be glad to help out.

    :)

  94. 94.

    Cacti

    @David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:

    I can understand why Bernie thinks Hillary is unqualified.

    She was a chronically unemployed, hippie, lay-about up until her 40s, when she decided to start running for political office and demanding all of the good things in life she had never worked for.

    No, wait, that was Bernie.

  95. 95.

    WaterGirl

    @Bobby Thomson: Whenever the police associations call me for donations now, I let them finish their spiel and then I say “I am very disturbed by the militarization of the police and all these murders of black men by the police. I won’t be contributing until this situation changes.”

    The most recent call was last week. The guy got very quiet and then said, “I understand. I will take you off our call list.”

  97. 97.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @WaterGirl: Yippee! That is terrific. Congrats, man.
    @WaterGirl: Thanks for all your help. Some new folks popped up in the site maintenance thread and seem to be reappearing.

  99. 99.

    D58826

    @Alex.S: Agreed but if folks are saying we won’t vote for Hillary because of things that happened 20 years ago and because she didn’t foresee the negative consequences then I think you have to explain why you did what you did in 1996 and why in retrospect it didn’t work out the way you had hoped.

    And yes the history is complicated because the ‘history’ didn’t stop in 1996. A lot happened, beyond Clinton’s control in the intervening years that made a bad situation worse.

  100. 100.

    Ruckus

    @Mnemosyne:
    It was his turn once upon a time. She supported him. It’s her turn now and he should do the same. I don’t give a shit about the title or if he plays in the WH garden, she backed him, has stood by him through thick and thin. She deserves the same consideration. Because he was president he gets a little leeway on discussing his time in the oval, but this isn’t it.

  101. 101.

    Cacti

    @efgoldman:

    Three institutions of higher learning in the great Northern state of North Carolina?

    Four actually: UNC, NC State, Wake Forest, and Duke

    There’s also the very northern University of Virginia.

  104. 104.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @WaterGirl: Whatever he’s doing, I am also too. See everybody hates Ted. Maybe it was too much St. Purim’s Day talk from both of us?

  107. 107.

    Mike J

    @Bobby Thomson:

    If I had to sum up BLM in one sentence, it’s “black people don’t deserve to be murdered in the streets by cops.” That’s got nothing to do with kids on crack in the 90s.

    By the same token, you can’t argue against the 90s crime bill from the other direction. Shit really was fucked up. 13 year olds really were being sent out to sell crack and get killed, and other people did profit from those deaths.

    There’s nothing wrong with cops trying to stop drug trafficking that is killing inner city kids. There is also nothing that excuses cops shooting unarmed people. I don’t think Bill ever said there was.

  108. 108.

    geg6

    @Andy:

    Yeah, it was the head of his campaign who said it. But Bernie sure hasn’t walked it back, has he? Unlike Hilz, who said that, of course, she’d support Bernie as nominee, which pretty much puts the kibosh on the idea that she thinks he unqualified. Like me, she probably just thinks he’s unprepared, not unqualified.

  109. 109.

    WaterGirl

    @Mike J: Mike J, are you using the MJJB thing? Trying to figure out why some of the block quotes (in this case, yours in comment #114) show up in a different font and size and different margins than the rest of us. efgoldman’s block quotes do the same thing. And Bella Q said hers do it, too.

    Trying to figure out what you all have ing common, besides being interesting commenters!

  110. 110.

    p.a.

    @Cacti: From my Yankee perspective they’re Southern. I suppose they don’t want to be seen as a particular type of Southern, as much as an institution can be said to want anything. But I don’t know enough of their history to know where to grade them on a ‘we weren ‘t THAT bad’ scale.
    Keeping in mind I’m an alum of a Northern school founded on slave trade money.

  111. 111.

    Alex.S

    @D58826: For example, from July 2015 — http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/15/politics/bill-clinton-1994-crime-bill/

    “I signed a bill that made the problem worse,” Clinton told an audience at the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People’s annual meeting in Philadelphia. “And I want to admit it.”

    “We had gang warfare on the streets. We had little children being shot dead on the streets who were just innocent bystanders standing in the wrong place,” he said.

    In response, Clinton said, the bill increased the number of police on the streets and enacted gun control legislation. But decades later, Clinton believes the results of the law were mixed, at best.

    “In that bill, there were longer sentences. And most of these people are in prison under state law, but the federal law set a trend,” Clinton said. “And that was overdone. We were wrong about that. That percentage of it, we were wrong about. “

    There are ways to respond to crime bill protests — emphasize that parts were wrong, maybe talk a little bit about history. Just don’t defend it.

  112. 112.

    Technocrat

    @Mike J:

    Shit really was fucked up.

    It’s astounding how many people don’t get this. A young black director made Boyz in the Hood as a protest about it.

  113. 113.

    Brachiator

    @David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:

    eta: last week he was being interviews by Rachel Maddow the day Trump said women should be punished. He screamed at Rachel that Trump while Trump was wrong, minimum wage was a bigger issue.

    Why are you making stuff up and distorting what Sanders actually said?

    Also, anything that Sanders said about HRC being unqualified is nonsense. And it is obvious nonsense that makes Sanders look like a dope.

    Or are you just trolling for fun and frolic?

  114. 114.

    Cacti

    @p.a.:

    From my Yankee perspective they’re Southern. I suppose they don’t want to be seen as a particular type of Southern, as much as an institution can be said to want anything. But I don’t know enough of their history to know where to grade them on a ‘we weren ‘t THAT bad’ scale.
    Keeping in mind I’m an alum of a school founded on slave trade money.

    Culturally speaking (lived in NC for 11 years) from what I saw, the ACC is the conference of the “new south” states, while the SEC is the conference of the “old south” states.

  115. 115.

    geg6

    @debbie:

    On my phone, so can’t link but there was a whole thread yesterday about Weaver saying that Hillary is willing to destroy the party (to which his candidate doesn’t really belong) in order to satisfy her ambition. And if Hillary is being called unqualified for her Iraq vote, I’m pretty sure that Bernie is also on the basis of his embrace of the gun industry, which kills tens of thousands ever year in this country.

  116. 116.

    Andy

    @geg6: Of course “Hilz”,(your words), would say that. She’s not going to call him a “schmuck”, not yet. How dismal our choices have become.

  117. 117.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @redshirt: Bill is front and center because he’s a politician who should be able to inspire people. Hill is a bureaucrat. They don’t inspire.

  118. 118.

    p.a.

    @Technocrat: Yes but… It seems for certain communities the first, last, only gvt and institutional response is the hammer. Never any attempt to address causes.

  119. 119.

    Cacti

    @Technocrat:

    A young black director made Boyz in the Hood as a protest about it.

    Menace II Society was another good film from the genre.

    I actually preferred it.

  120. 120.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @WaterGirl: It’s a joke about one of your suggestions. I think if you look at a couple of replies about music earlier in this thread it will make sense.
    Or it’s possible (really) that my brain is slightly more broken than I thought. Which might or might not be entertaining for the rest of you. I trust you to tell me if the answer is in the negative range (I mean that).

  121. 121.

    Cacti

    @geg6:

    On my phone, so can’t link but there was a whole thread yesterday about Weaver saying that Hillary is willing to destroy the party (to which his candidate doesn’t really belong) in order to satisfy her ambition. And if Hillary is being called unqualified for her Iraq vote, I’m pretty sure that Bernie is also on the basis of his embrace of the gun industry, which kills tens of thousands ever year in this country.

    My favorite part is the duplicity of the whole thing.

    Bernie and his Bros say that his legislative agenda isn’t overly ambitious.

    Now the Bernie campaign says, don’t vote for Hillz because she’s overly ambitious to be POTUS.

  122. 122.

    Technocrat

    @p.a.:

    Yes but… It seems for certain communities the first, last, only gvt and institutional response is the hammer. Never any attempt to address causes.

    This is absolutely true. I think it’s fair to criticize the bill for it’s lack of long-term remedies. But I think there is a tendency to romanticize some of the people who ended up in jail during that period. Part of the cycle of gang violence is the belief that police won’t do anything to arrest someone who attacks or kills a loved one. People feel compelled to take justice into their own hands. Arresting violent criminals reduces violence, reduces the need for violence, and saved black lives. Those parts of the bill shouldn’t need to be defended.

  123. 123.

    redshirt

    @Just Some Fuckhead: Sure, but not Q&A sessions, or speeches to protest groups, but rather to well heeled supporters and rich corporate backers. I’m not kidding either.

    We don’t need extemporaneous Bill these days. We need fund raising glad handing Bill.

  124. 124.

    Andy

    @Cacti: The overly ambitious part is your narrative word,(ambitious). It has the connotations you desire to suggest sexism. Which patently was not stated, but hey, you keep pounding the drum. “A” for effort, or A-hole. You decide.

  125. 125.

    debbie

    @geg6:

    Thanks, I’ll go back and look some more. I assumed Sanders had said it himself. I agree with you about the Iraq / guns thing. Both are wrong.

  127. 127.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Cacti: I’m pretty sure neither of your hypotheses test out true but I admire your enthusiasm to make up shit to.. do something.

  128. 128.

    Mnemosyne

    @Mike J:

    I would love it if one of Hillary’s speechwriters could work up a critique of the crime bill for her: what worked, what didn’t, and what we thought was a good idea at the time that ended up backfiring. I think having something like that ready (maybe as an op-ed) would be really helpful for the campaign. Plus it would give her an opportunity to talk about the process of creating legislation and the pitfalls you have to watch out for.

    I know it’s easy to yell “superpredators!” at her, but I’d like to see a more thoughtful analysis from her perspective and with the benefit of hindsight, especially since she’s been emphasizing her ability to change and grow as a politician.

  129. 129.

    Brachiator

    @Cacti:

    Now the Bernie campaign says, don’t vote for Hillz because she’s overly ambitious to be POTUS.

    Really? Have these people lost their minds?

    Did this in Caesar seem ambitious?
    When that the poor have cried, Caesar hath wept:
    Ambition should be made of sterner stuff:
    Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
    And Brutus is an honourable man.

    So Bernie is going for character assassination?
    And Bernie is an honorable man.

  130. 130.

    Just One More Canuck

    @singfoom: You have the tone right. If you went on for another 800 words with digressions into irrelevant precedents and accusing various commenters of being CIA plants, you’d sound just like mclaren

  131. 131.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @redshirt: Do you remember Gore putting baby in the corner and then losing? Hillary learns.

    Maybe #BLM needs some truth.

  132. 132.

    mclaren

    @D58826:

    As for Bill and BLM there is a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on here. It is easy to spot the flaws in the 1994-1996 approach in 2016. In 1994-1996 a lot of people thought Clinton was doing the right thing. A lot of things have changed since then and the GOP has pushed for major cuts in safety net programs that make the problem worse.

    It’s not a racial thing but I remember years ago back in Penna., everyone agreed that the mental institutions were an expense failure and all they did was warehouse people. The better solution was to close the facilities and open community based half way houses. Well closing the hospitals had bi-partisan support. The community based solutions and the needed funding not so much.

    There are two backstories to these policies that help explain what went on. I don’t say they excuse what happened, but they explain it — Clinton’s 1994 crime bill wasn’t just wanton cruelty on his part. Bill Clinton got hoodwinked by junk science about “superpredators.” And this is where science itself has a role to play in rotten policy, because it turned out that a few years later, the original researcher figured out that his samples were biased — they were contaminated with people who weren’t just crack users, but were also alcohol addicts or were also gang members. When designing a sociological experiment, you have to be very careful to control for independent variables, and that’s where this study went wrong.

    The New York Times reported this week on the “superpredator” myth, which 20 years ago led nearly every state in the country to expand laws that removed children from juvenile courts and exposed them to adult sentences, including life without parole.

    A documentary by Retro Report, The Superpredator Scare, tells the story of how influential criminologists in the 1990s issued predictions of a coming wave of “superpredators”: “radically impulsive, brutally remorseless” “elementary school youngsters who pack guns instead of lunches” and “have absolutely no respect for human life.” Much of this frightening imagery was racially coded.

    In 1995, John DiIulio, a professor at Princeton who coined the term “superpredator,” predicted that the number of juveniles in custody would increase three-fold in the coming years and that, by 2010, there would be “an estimated 270,000 more young predators on the streets than in 1990.” Criminologist James Fox joined in the rhetoric, saying publicly, “Unless we act today, we’re going to have a bloodbath when these kids grow up.”

    These predictions set off a panic, fueled by highly publicized heinous crimes committed by juvenile offenders, which led nearly every state to pass legislation between 1992 and 1999 that dramatically increased the treatment of juveniles as adults for purposes of sentencing and punishment.

    As DiIulio and Fox themselves later admitted, the prediction of a juvenile superpredator epidemic turned out to be wrong. In fact, violent juvenile crime rates had already started to fall in the mid-1990’s. By 2000, the juvenile homicide rate stabilized below the 1985 level.

    Source: “The `Superpredator’ myth 20 years later,” 7 April 2014.

    So the real villain in the 1994 crime bill story was Princeton professor John DiIulio. But here’s where the story gets interesting, because by the year 2000, DiIulio realized his mistake. But he couldn’t get government grants for experiments would prove definitively that his early “superpredator” results were wrong, because at the time, with Republicans in power in congress, this conclusion wasn’t politically convenient. So DiIulio has trouble publishing his new results and his funding got cut off. All he could do was point out methodological errors in his earlier studies.

    So the real problem here is sociological. The earlier science got accepted because it fit with the mood of the Republicans in congress at the time. When errors in the science were discovered, funding for research contrary to the earlier conclusions was shut down.

    The year 2000, incidentally, was the time at which the law got changed to allow for the death penalty for 14-year-olds. This was directly caused by the myth of crack babies growing up to become “superpredators.”

    The decision to close down mental hospitals and move to an outpatient model was actually taken back in the Kennedy administration. It resulted from the discovery of the early psychotropic medications like thorazine. In the mid-1950s, when thorazine and lithium and chlorpromazine were first discovered and used, they seemed like miracle drugs. Suddenly, manic-depressive people and schizophrenics who had formerly been untreatable could be made into relatively functional individuals. This rapidly raised the hope that with the new psychotropic drugs, the horrible mental hospitals that were snakepits of abuse could be largely emptied out. (Sexual abuse and violence by orderlies was endemic. Female mental patients were routinely raped, and male patients were often brutalized.) The new model for treating mental disorders had formerly institutionalized mental patients dropping by outpatient cilnics to pick up their meds and interact with a psychiastrist once a month or so to monitor their progress.

    This sounded great.

    The problem was that these psychotropic meds had awful side effects. The patients who took this stuff eventually came to dislike those symptoms, so they tended to stop taking the meds. This led to mental patients who dropped off the grid because without their meds, they drifted back into schizophrenia or manic depressive disorder or whatever, and they wound up unable to function in society and became homeless.

    So the Kennedy administration was actually responsible for the epidemic of homeless mentally ill people. You didn’t see them before the advent of psychotropic drugs because the only way to treat mentally ill people prior to those drugs was to warehouse ’em in institutions.

    So it’s unfair to blame Clinton for the 1994 crime bill. He went with the science at the time. Unfortunately it turned out to be junk science, and by the time the scientists discovered that their initial results were wrong, it was the late 1990s and Clinton was a lame duck and couldn’t do anything to reverse his disastrous 1994 crime bill.

  133. 133.

    geg6

    @Andy:

    Perhaps you feel they are dismal. I don’t. I was at a Hillary rally last night that was just great. She talked policy, the future and inspiring people. The crowd, mostly college students, women and minorities, were super enthusiastic and the crowd was so big they had to set up speakers outside the venue to accommodate them. I’m fired up by her and ready to hit the streets for her. She was very impressive and totally positive. It was inspiring.

  135. 135.

    mclaren

    @Brachiator:

    So Bernie is going for character assassination?
    And Bernie is an honorable man.

    Folks, all pols are bare-knuckle brawlers, and all politics is a slippery slide through the sewer. When the polls get close, the pols get nasty. Deal with it.

    There is no such thing as a politician who is above the fray. They always hurl that mud. Hell, look at this forum. Whenever I speak up to say something contrary to the common unwisdom, look at the drump truck of manure that gets unloaded on me.

    I don’t take it personally. People get passionate about what they believe. It’s human nature.

    The good thing about this election is that the vast majority of the Sanders supporters have pledged to vote for Hillary if she’s the nominee, and i’m sure most Hillary supporters have made the same pledge if it turns out the other way.

  136. 136.

    Cacti

    Our resident Bernfeelers seem to be coming unraveled…

    Much like their candidate.

  137. 137.

    Mandalay

    Clinton today:

    Mrs. Clinton added that he was better than the Republicans who are running….I will take Bernie Sanders over Donald Trump or Ted Cruz any time,” she said.

    http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2016/04/07/bernie-sanders-and-hillary-clinton-spar-over-presidential-qualifications/

    That is exactly what Clinton could and should have said yesterday when she was given three opportunities, but she had to be an asshole. I suspect Clinton will think very carefully before putting the boot in on Sanders again. She has far more to lose than he does.

  139. 139.

    elftx

    David Bowie’s old drummer Dennis Davis has passed away. I think he worked on some of the best albums done by Bowie: Low, Heroes and Lodger.

  140. 140.

    Cacti

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    I’m pretty sure neither of your hypotheses test out true

    Bernie’s pretty sure he knows how to break up banks.

    Just don’t ask for details. He has a gut feeling and indignation.

    What more could anyone need?

  141. 141.

    geg6

    @Andy:

    And I went to several events he had during the primaries and worked my ass off to get him nominated and then elected twice. Hillary didn’t capture my fervent support until much later in the process, but I’ll be spending the next couple of weeks canvassing and phone banking just like I did for months for Obama.

  143. 143.

    D58826

    @mclaren: It’s complicated and difficult to explain in a political rally, esp 20 years later.

    And I should have made clear that the Penna. example was way before the Clinton era. The dynamic is the same though, a reasonable idea is enacted and then gutted by later conservative politicians. The only thing people remember is that the government isn’t working. Which of course to the GOP is feature not a bug.

  150. 150.

    Bob In Portland

    How many electoral votes does Sri Lanka get?

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/08/28/elite-fundraiser-for-obama-and-clinton-linked-to-justice-departm ent-probe/

    Imaad Zuberi, age 45, is a private equity fund manager, venture capitalist, and an elite political fundraiser. He was among the top tier of bundlers for Obama’s 2012 reelection campaign, meaning he delivered $500,000 or more in contributions. He’s already among Clinton’s “Hillblazers,” bundling $100,000 for her presidential campaign in its first months. Among the perks of delivering that much money to candidates is access to them, and advertising that access caught the eye of those who wanted some of it for themselves.

    The Sri Lankan government, long under fire for official corruption and at a low point in its relations with Washington, did just that. Over a five-month period in 2014, it paid Zuberi $4.5 million directly — plus another $2 million to a company he co-owns — for consulting services which included influencing the U.S. government, according to documents obtained by Foreign Policy. Zuberi’s windfall was not disclosed to the Justice Department, as required under federal law, and the lobbying and public relations firms hired through his company to influence the U.S. government on Sri Lanka’s behalf have all received DOJ subpoenas, according to a senior government official. Justice is seeking public assets allegedly stolen from Sri Lanka. None of the firms is a target of the investigation, which is focused on members of the family of the country’s former president and has not been previously reported.

    According to the Foreign Agents Registration Act, or FARA, paid representatives of foreign governments — even if they outsource the actual lobbying to other organizations — must disclose those relationships to Justice “within ten days” of acquiring a foreign client, according to the statute. WR Group, the company that held the contract with Sri Lanka, never registered with the Justice Department. Zuberi, who billed the government on May 5, 2014, for his services and received his first payment of $3.5 million from Sri Lanka on May 9, 2014, didn’t register as a consultant until Aug. 14 of that year, well beyond the 10-day deadline. Violating the act carries maximum penalties of a $10,000 fine and five years in prison.

  155. 155.

    Cacti

    “Remember that guy who lived in your college dorm, always wore a Che Guevara t-shirt, and ranted about “the system?” That’s basically Bernie Sanders.”

    -Editorial Staff
    New York Daily News
    April 6, 2016

  156. 156.

    tastytone

    @kc: @kc:
    Did that happen after he grumbled “I have nothing to say to you” and left his own event, or was that the event before?

  158. 158.

    Cacti

    @tastytone:

    Did that happen after he grumbled “I have nothing to say to you” and left his own event, or was that the event before?

    kc was probably one of the “progressives” in the background calling for them to be tasered.

  159. 159.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    @Brachiator: is Rachel Maddow lying too?

    “MADDOW: “I spoke with your Democratic opponent Bernie Sanders after this [Trump’s remarks] happened, and he was critical of mister Trump’s remark, but then he also said that this is basically another ‘Donald Trump stupid remark’ — that the media would cover ad nauseum — as opposed to something like his position on the minimum wage, on taxes or climate change — that might be more deserving of extended attention.““

  160. 160.

    Socraticsilence

    @Technocrat:

    Maybe he could quit saying at best misinterpetable things? All it does is get people to bring up the less ambigous and more overtly racist statements he’s made in the past (e.g. the first comment on the Gawker article being a re-hash of the time Bill talked about Obama fetching him coffee.)

  162. 162.

    Cacti

    @David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch:

    Today, Bernie compared the Sandy Hook massacre to losing your job.

    So what does Sanders say to the Sandy Hook families who say he should apologize for his position?

    “Well I would say that I think that it is — we all area aware of what happened in Sandy Hook is a tragedy beyond comprehension,” he said. “But maybe Secretary Clinton might want to apologize to the families who lost their loved ones in Iraq or Secretary Clinton might want to apologize to the millions of workers in this country who lost their jobs because of the disastrous trade agreements that she supported.”

    Getting gunned down. It’s just like being laid off.

    Except you die.

  163. 163.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    @Mandalay: oh please. Even Cole and Lawrence O’Donnell, who both support Sanders and hate Hillary, both said he crossed the line.

    Even socialist Chris Hayes was stunned.

  167. 167.

    Betty Cracker

    @Cacti: Many SEC and ACC schools are located in the same states, i.e., Clemson and Univ SoCar, Florida and FSU, UGA and GA Tech, etc.

  169. 169.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Betty Cracker: Something I dug up from a newsgroup archive for your edamamefication:

    To understand the relationship between aquavit and lutefisk, here’s an experiment you can do at home. In addition to aquavit, you will need a slice of lemon, a cracker, a dishtowel, ketchup, a piece of lettuce, some caviar, and a Kit-Kat candy bar.

    Take a shot [of] aquavit.
    Take two. (They’re small.)
    Put a bit of caviar on a bit of lettuce. Put the lettuce on a cracker.
    Squeeze some lemon juice on the caviar.
    Pour some ketchup on the Kit-Kat bar.
    Tie the dishtowel around your eyes.

    If you can taste the difference between caviar on a cracker and ketchup on a Kit-Kat while blindfolded, you have not had enough aquavit to be ready for lutefisk. Return to step one.

  174. 174.

    Detroit Adam

    After a lovely exchange in the “She Learns From Her Mistakes” comments with a really nice guy who really loves and appreciates gay people and our feelings, I need a drink. Favorite single malt? Favorite cocktail? Sound off!

  175. 175.

    David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch

    @ecomcon: This is how loony you people are.

    A socialist who calls Sanders his favorite politician is considered disloyal for laughing at dilettante 1%er Susan Sarandon for saying Trump will bring a glorious revolution.

  180. 180.

    Detroit Adam

    I don’t think I understand how to interact with people here. Which is a very odd experience. Twice now when posting replies that I thought would come across as generally agreeable with the addition of some historical or personal context I’ve been immediately attacked. Is there something about this commenting community I’m not getting?

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