So I just got off the phone with my mom and she shared some disturbing news. Especially so for me as the son of an immigrant, a Green Card holder until his death.
My former sister-in-law returned in the last couple of days from a family funeral in Peru. She’s an American, with passport, but originally from Peru. When her plane arrived at SFO, there were armed immigration/customs agents on the boarding ramp, right outside the plane’s door.
Every person exiting the plane was asked for their papers and scrutinized. This was a normal international flight, not from the countries of current trumpian concern. The next day, her friends told her that all international flights are being greeted thusly.
I’ve been traveling since I was two weeks old. I’m a dual national, but my US issued birth certificate shows I was born in Africa to an American woman and a Swiss man. This country has ALWAYS been the land of the free and customs and immigration folks are in their booths, lanes, aisles, etc. Not intimidating folks getting off the plane.
It’s beginning my friends. A moat is being created around us, between us and the rest of the world.
Pssst, I think you mean 2-7-17.
Tenar Arha (same Tenar, more Nameless Ones)
I believe the date has a typo? You meant 2/7/17….
Horrible, and what a waste of resources just to impress their rabid base.
Terrifying. Green card holders are afraid to travel because they don’t know if they’ll be allowed back in the country. Wrong in every way.
Alain the site fixer
@?BillinGlendaleCA: yeah thanks to all.
Dam it, this is not my country. If I wanted to live in North Korea/Iran/Israel I’d move there.
This is the end of America.
I teach ESL to refugees and today we had a speaker from the USCIS (Citizenship & Immigration Services) district office to talk about citizenship. This was planned months ago, but when she got to my class everyone had questions about incidents like this they’d heard about from friends. Most of my students are Burmese — not on the list — but a couple had a friend who got held up at on a flight back from visiting family. Took him several hours to be let back in the country. The USCIS officer seemed very dubious about their story, noting that Myanmar is not one of the countries on “the list.” But I’ve heard too much stuff like this to think that “the list” is by any means exclusive. One of my students (Burmese) has a friend whose citizenship interview next week was unexpectedly cancelled.
I think there’s all sorts of shit going on targeting refugees and immigrants, regardless of nationality. Need more media outlets covering this.
(I posted this in the marathon thread below and think it got lost in the population control troll-a-thon.)
Thought provoking article about “ordinary Americans” in the aftermath of the immigrant EO.
I remember learning about “ordinary Germans” in history class. History repeats, etc.
How long did all this take? With those big planes it must take two hours to get everyone off the plane. And did they still have to go through Immigration? Because unless the agents have some kind of mobile device they won’t have officially looked at your passport and put it through their computer. They fingerprint foreign nationals so did they do that on the ramp as well? What a clusterfuck. Sounds like it’s all about intimidation.
I’m sure everyone loooooved staying on those planes that much longer. The airlines have to be pissed off at this. Not to mention the effect on foreign travel. Who wants to come here and have to go through that crap? I already know of foreign companies that are stopping US deals until we sort this shit out because we’re too unstable at the moment. Stories like this won’t help.
What sucks is that this is all being imposed by a minority. The rest of us are the majority, but a significant part of the rest of us cannot be convinced to register & vote, suppression efforts be damned.
Alain the site fixer
While I never traveled behind the Iron Curtain, I have been to some totalitarian places and having authorities scrutinizing people as they get off the plane feels hostile. Those places, you can’t wait to leave. And not go back. You’re glad that nothing has happened to you while you were there, something unaccountable.
That’s not a good message to foreign travelers but that’s where we are.
@fuckwit: Probably not but tourism gunna take a yooooge hit. Australian’s are very wary of US travel because guns!! and now they are met with same as they walk off a plane. Probably those who would treat the guns as the norm come from the countries that Trump does not want on his travel list.
What an horrible image. It’s all going down too fast.
@James Powell: Yup. Plato was so right.
Its a hostile takeover.
So when millions of Americans who work in businesses that are dependent on tourists from overseas are out of work because of Trump and farmers in the midwest cannot sell their crops overseas because of trump etc and etc and soforth, who is trump gonna blame? 1) the media 2) Obama
Their rabid base doesn’t travel anywhere, so wouldn’t ever see the fascists in action.
They’re doing it because they can.
My wife is from the Philippines, but luckily she got her U.S. citizenship several years ago (although she still has a Philippine passport). A gay friend of ours from the Philippines, who’s a green card holder, wants to bring his boyfriend over here and marry him. I told the wife today that I don’t think he’s going to be able to do so.
This type of stuff has been going on for a long time. I hate custom and immigration and security people. Some of them can be extremely rude. A few years ago my 78 yr old mom had to get up from her wheel chair and after the pat down some jerk examined the soles of her feet. I had no idea why. This was when she had difficulty getting up from her wheel chair and lifting both her legs up for the inspection. I really wished she could have kicked him in the face. Under Trump they’re just more emboldened.
This is wrong. We are going to have to impeach all these unAmerican, fascist assholes.
The Stanford Experiment is currently running on one of the cable movie channels. This makes me think of that.
This actually happened to me a couple of weeks ago on a return flight from Toronto, the week of the inauguration if I remember correctly.
But it isn’t happening on all international flights. I took the same flight last week and was not stopped.
mai naem mobile
My stupid BIL decided not to pursue his US citizenship and is on a green card. He’s been here for 25 years. He was thinking about getting it before the election. Now, I wonder what hoops they’ll make him go through. He’s a UK citizen so at least he’s not from a “suspect” nation.
This is my concern as well. I am a birthright US citizen, married to a naturalized citizen who was born in Iran. Travel in Iran is only legal for US citizens as members of tours. Although I love to see the sights, I primarily go so see my husband’s family who are somewhat off the traditional tourism path. Thus, I have an Iranian passport as well. When we go to Iran, we switch passports in the Netherlands, because KLM flies to Tehran. Its pretty easy to go to Iran – we get searched & have the bags checked about a 1000 times, but so does everyone else. Coming back, ICE/Homeland Security are always assholes (like they have fallen behind in & are trying to catch up – its awesome when they randomly throw away pounds of cumin just because they can), but they’re my assholes and so I get to deal with them in my good Nebraska accent, instead of my husband who loses his English when angry. (It is his job to deal with Persian assholes.)
My dear mother-in-law, whom I always like more than my own mother (!) is 80 years old, diabetic and arthritic, but with other health stuff too. (I love my mom, but Zari is made entirely of love, which I appreciate more as I grow older.) She has no business being alive at her age with all of her health issues & after having borne 14 children in a small city in a third-world country. Her home is hell and gone from great health care.
Literally every time we see her, we are well aware that it may be the last time. I can’t go this year, because I am in the job market. No job, no trip. But I would really like it if she could see her oldest child, a STEM professor and a US citizen.
I wish I could see that happening this year. It just makes me so sad, that my country has come to this place, and I feel so much contempt for these people who are stupidly, blindly plowing through innocent lives, and the “lawmakers” who continue to support them. Among the Afghanis and Iraqis, people will die because of this regime.
This is what happened to an ACLU lawyer
@skerry: As I’m fond of saying, Hitler didn’t kill a single Jew. But assholes trying to curry his favor murdered 6 million of them. “Alt-right” is the socially acceptable moniker that Nazis have adopted. We should reject their spin and call them what they are: Nazis. And whether somebody is a Nazi, a Nazi sympathizer, or a Nazi enabler, it’s all the same to me. They’re goddamn Nazis, and all they have ever accomplished is slaughter and ruin.
Genuinely scary. What justification is there for such an overreach? This doesn’t make any sense.
I was born in Guatemala, to an American mother and Peruvian father. I have traveled all my life, living in various places. Never before have I worried about my ability to travel or whether my papers were in order. What do we do now?
This is absolutely chilling. I’m whiter than Wonder Bread, and about as threatening, but I find this just terrifying. Cannot begin to imagine what it must be like for people who are of a dusky hue, or who speak English with a slight accent, or who can’t produce a “born in the USA” birth certificate on demand.
“The Johnson Amendment is the 1954 legislation that prohibits tax-exempt organizations (like churches) from formally endorsing political candidates or directly engaging in political campaigns. Trump promised during Thursday’s National Prayer Breakfast to “destroy” the Johnson Amendment, ostensibly to “allow our representatives of faith to speak freely and without fear of retribution,” according to the president. Repealing the Johnson Amendment has long been a priority for conservative Christians involved in politics, and may finally find some traction in the new administration, which has indicated that it prioritizes “religious freedom” concerns over civil rights.
(Sarah) Posner explains that it’s legally unclear whether Trump could repeal the Johnson Amendment through executive order alone, but she crucially notes that the Congressional Prayer Caucus has already introduced legislation to do just that. The “Free Speech Fairness Act” was introduced by Oklahoma Republican Sen. James Lankford on February 1.
“If that bill passes the House and the Senate, Trump is very likely to sign it,” Posner explains. “And that would sweep away this restriction on the use of tax-exempt resources to get involved in political campaigns. That would open the door not only for pastors to endorse political candidates directly, and use their church resources to do so, but it would also open the floodgates of dark money, to funnel that money through churches, because it’s not transparent, it’s not reportable like money would be donated to a political campaign or to a political action committee. If somebody wanted to pour unlimited money into a political campaign without having to disclose their identity, doing it through a church, who could now, with the repeal of the Johnson Amendment, engage in unlimited activity, that would be one way of somebody being able to do that.” ”
(The link has some video from Democracy Now too.)
@mai naem mobile: That sounds like my Jamaican Uncle who has been here since the 1980s but still only has a green card. I doubt he’s going to be able to change his status now.
@mai naem mobile: I was talking to someone (immigrant US citizen) the other day who is trying to get citizenship for her Green Card holding parents. Their immigration lawyer slammed with work. He told her that every immigration lawyer in the country is slammed.
@SiubhanDuinne: Or is a member of the “wrong” religion.
mai naem mobile
@TS: Years ago, there was a Japanese kid(I think college kid) in Georgia whose car broke down or something and he went to the closest house to get help and got shot dead by the homeowner who thought this kid was a robber or whatever.I remember thinking of his parents and how they must have felt…sending their kid off to get some life experience and education and some moron kills the kid dead.
@Omnes Omnibus: My husband’s also a green card holder who was going to apply for citizenship before the election but didn’t do so. I don’t know what his chances now are.
Indeed. The “reason” doesn’t matter. It’s whatever they arbitrarily decide it is.
Laura on Kaua'i
We’re traveling to Japan next month to visit family that lives/works there. Our 17-year old daughter is going with us; she is a U.S. citizen but was born in China. We had already decided we were carrying her adoption paperwork, etc. with us but this cements it. I want to bring her citizenship certificate as well, but am terrified some CBP heavy might take it from us.
@tobie: My ex’s citizenship interview started about 15 minutes early and finished before it was scheduled to start. That was in the last year of Bush and she was a blue eyed blonde from a “nonthreatening” country.
If you haven’t read Terry Pratchett, you really should. He knows human beings, both the good and the bad.
This is so sad. There is an old corny 50s movie, The High & The Mighty, about an American flight coming from “Red China.” Watch it if you can and see the difference between what Americans considered their rights, then, and what life is like now. Especially now.
@efgoldman: Unfortunately you’re wrong. There are plenty of ugly Americans traveling. I’ve seen them yell at vendors for not taking US currency, complain in restaurants because no one spoke English and even complain about illegal immigrants to Mexican bartenders. They act like they do here, like they own the that country too.
@mai naem mobile: Are you thinking of the case from 1992 in which a Japanese foreign-exchange student was shot dead by some Louisiana cracker when he went to the wrong address for a Halloween party? (The homeowner, of course, was acquitted.)
I’m seeing more than a few Brits on FB suggesting that Trump receive similar treatment when he lands in London.
Well written commentary from Germany in the Spiegel (in English)
Stand your Snickers doctrine.
He should apply for citizenship. He’s certainly been here long enough. Tell him to get his N-440.
This is not new. This is now being reported and discussed, and that’s good.
The kind of person who will take a job “defending our borders” in an airport (checking paperwork someone already checked at the boarding gate, but with a gun & the ability to harass anyone they want to) is the kind of person whose authoritarian impulses have to be held in check by a government that answers to citizens. And that we cannot rely on. Raising the question, who’s going to monitor these folks?
He should apply for citizenship. He’s certainly been here long enough. Tell him to get his N-400.
Villago Delenda Est
@Baud: Fuck the base. Fuck every last one of them, with an unlubed rusty chain saw. Fuck them all. They deserve to be enserfed.
But a lot more nourishing.
@Laura on Kaua’i: Is this your first trip abroad with your daughter, or just the first since the late unpleasantness?
Broadly, the passport is what you carry. Don’t let that certificate of citizenship out of your safe. Until we have a responsible government again, I’m not sleeping too heavily to hear my kid’s call to bring it to anywhere she gets caught speeding.
@efgoldman: Soylent Green is SiubhanDuinne?
@zanamu: your story is so sad. And you must be the tip of the iceberg. I hate the people who have created this with the heat of quadrillion suns. Love yo you and yours.
mai naem mobile
@Tokyokie: yep,I looked it up. I remembered it being Georgia and I got a lot of details wrong! But the kid got shot for no reason and the asshole killer got off.
The “cull the population” thread is downstairs.
@PhoenixRising: good advice. Those documents need to be in a safe place. Even in a country like Zjapan, you could lose them or they could be stolen. They need to stay in a safe place.
These are bad times, but I’m heartened by the resistance all around, the decent people stepping forward to say this isn’t who we want to be. We have to fight this bullshit on every level and help the vulnerable in any way we can.
@Mike s: Stay away from the places the packaged tours hit, and you’ll miss those assholes. I’ve seen those arrogant schmucks demand to know how much something cost in “real money,” then heard the sales clerk who spoke perfect English moments before to me, stammer an exchange rate twice the going rate to the assholes. And the assholes strode away thinking they’d show that damn foreigner who the big swinging dicks are.
Anyway, I’ve traveled extensively and have lived overseas, and I’ve never had a problem, because I treated people well and showed interest rather than contempt for their culture. The fuckers who act otherwise should consider rereading the Gospel of Matthew in that damn religious tome they claim is inerrant.
So, something more pleasing than this: I just say a Zales commercial tonight with a same-sex wedding spliced in among the other vignettes. (Since it was Zales, it was two women, of course.) It was just part of the ad, nothing singled out. That warms the cockles of my heart.
@Omnes Omnibus: that’s good to know. There are millions who need to get that done. I know the administration will mess with that process, but the bigger the rush the better.
@mai naem mobile:
It was Baton Rouge. The Japanese kid was on his way to a Halloween party and went to wrong house.
He knocked on the door, when nobody answered he started walking back to his car. The homeowner then came out of the house with a .44 Magnum revolver. The kid turned and said “We’re here for the party” and the homeowner shot him in the chest at point blank range.
The shooter was initially not charged by police as they stated that he was within his rights to shoot any trespasser. Pressure from the Japanese consulate eventually saw manslaughter charges laid.
The accused was acquitted.
OP, tell your congress critter that this sort of shit is unacceptable in this country.
Then get all your friends to do the same. Us Juicers will.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@Villago Delenda Est:
Yep, it’s all about da base.
The base of frightened, angry, intellectually incurious yet smug mouth-breathers who can’t be arsed to educate themselves.
@tobie: go for it. Seriously, apply.
mai naem mobile
@Laura on Kaua’i: I have a friend who had to get a copy of his naturalization certificate. It took almost a year to get it – no joke – he mailed the money order (~$475) in November and got the certificate the following October. It’s impossible to get anybody on the phone. ICE doesn’t give a shit. Oh,and BTW on the naturalization paper it says its illegal to make a copy of it.
@mai naem mobile: The Japanese kid was dressed in a tuxedo (his Halloween costume was John Travolta from Saturday Night Fever) and he and the son of the family with which he was living had turned to leave when the homeowner yelled, “Freeze!” The Japanese kid turned around and said they were there for the party, and the homeowner shot him point-blank in the chest. Claimed he felt threatened. Right. A goofy 16-year-old Japanese kid wearing a tuxedo who’s turned to leave is a danger to you. The only reason he was fearful was because of his ignorance, but that’s enough to get you off in Louisiana.
@Laura on Kaua’i:
Can you get notarized, certified copies of it made before you go? Have several with you, leave one with your attorney, extras in the safe deposit box at the bank, etc.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
Holy crap! When was this, 1944?
Oh, wait… you said this was the deep south. Never mind.
@zanamu: The woman who has cut my hair for 10+ years has family in Tehran. She visited her 90+ year old father several times last year. I was nervous the last time I saw her, when she said she was going to see her family for a month or so and would be back in mid-late January…
I sent her a text a couple of weeks ago, but haven’t heard anything back yet.
I hope she made it back Ok. It’s horrible what she, and you, and everyone else who has been affected (directly and indirectly) by this are going through.
I went to grad school with several Iranians. My first real job was in a group that included an Iranian guy whose family escaped from Iran on horseback when he was a child.
It is absolutely nonsensical the way the GOP has demonized Iran for so many decades. The Iranian people are warm and generous, amazingly hard working, and a great embodiment of the best of new Americans. We can have disagreements with the governments without demonizing the people.
I’m hopeful that the courts strike down this nonsense EO, but even without it (as we’ve seen), the border entry system can (legally) be turned into a soul-crushing organization if monsters are in charge.
We’ve got to keep fighting and do what we can to flip the monsters out of office and positions of power sooner rather than later.
Hang in there.
@West of the Rockies (been a while):
That would be bad enough, but they purposely mis-educate and un-educate themselves.
@mai naem mobile: It’s a hassle, but if you want to get ahold of a real person at a federal agency, check to see what time the switchboard opens, then get up early and call an hour ahead of that and let the phone ring until somebody answers it.
Can one of the local attorneys tell me what happened today in the appeals hearing re:immigration ban?
Adria McDowell (formerly LurkerExtraordinaire)
We have a friend from Jamaica with a green card, but not yet meeting time requirements for citizenship. I’m about five seconds away from encouraging him to join his mom in Toronto. I’m sure he can find work there.
It wouldn’t surprise me at all if native born Hispanic and Muslim citizens of the US start getting this same treatment, not only at airports, but on the street as well (especially those of us in red states). If that starts happening, we’ll be looking to join our friend’s mom in Toronto.
Helps build strong bodies eight ways!
Nutritious and delicious, that’s me.
I’m telling you, we can’t go out after dark in Louisiana because of all the ninja attacks. Sad.
@SiubhanDuinne: You can’t make copies of the certificate legally.
Ninjas in tuxedos are really terrifying!
Of course a real Ninja would’ve kicked the gun out of the asshole’s hand before he had a chance to even think about pulling the trigger.
Laura on Kaua'i
@PhoenixRising: This is our first overseas travel since the “unpleasantness’ (what a quaint term for it). She went with me to Japan in 2015, and to China (for a school trip) in 2014 with the same passport.
She is due to renew next year for her adult passport – wonder what sorts of hoops she’ll have to jump through for that. She was also selected to travel to China this summer, but my husband and I don’t want her traveling without us now. Not sure how we’re going to break that one to her.
We’re carrying our Senator’s numbers with us in case we have any trouble. Tulsi Gabbard though can pack sand as far as we’re concerned.
@SiubhanDuinne: no, she cant
@Tokyokie: Back in the early 80s when I was in college I did a term in London. Our program was set up with a 10 day break right after midterms. One of my fellow students attached himself to me when I went to Paris because I spoke French. We got to Paris and were outside the Gare du Nord and among street vendors. The dude was looking at scarves that one vendor was selling. I was standing beside and he said “How much is this?” The French dude just looked at him funny. So he said again louder. I then stepped in and spoke to the vendor. I basically said, Please excuse this guy. He is an idiot. How much do you want for the scarf?” He answered. I told Ugly American and said it was a good deal. He bought it. A day later, he decided that he didn’t like France and headed back to London. I stayed in Paris for a few days before going on for a couple of days each in Munich and Amsterdam.
@Seth Owen: then she shouldn’t take it with her. They can’t take what she does not have on her
What surprised me the most is that knocking on a door in Louisiana is apparently a capital crime.
How do Mormon’s keep from getting shot?
@Tokyokie: I’ve traveled extensively too and never had a problem but I’ve seen ugly Americans from The Gily Islands in Indonesia to Vancouver, British Columbia. While traveling through supposedly rude France the only arrogant people I dealt with were Americans.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
Well, misinformation is, of course, a tool, a means to a nefarious end.
Welcome to the Soviet Union, comrade.
@skerry: it’s with the judges of the 9th circuit now. So far they do not appear to be sympathetic. Trump is promising an appeal to the Supreme Court if he doesn’t get a decision in his favor. I wonder if even Gorsuch will support such a blatant power grab on the part of the Presidency.
@Peale: Which is why my advice was to keep it in the safe, like you do when you’re at home. Worst case, someone can get it for you.
We’ve had to do quite a bit of worst-case planning. Because our government is not to be trusted.
@skerry: The Gov’t atty more or less shit the bed. Intentionally? Nothing to work with? Who knows?
Maybe not make copies — I’m not suggesting running the certificate through a Xerox machine — but surely one can get multiple official copies of a citizenship certificate, just as one can with a birth certificate. They serve the same purpose.
As i said a couple of threads below, it’s hard to defend the indefensible.
@SiubhanDuinne: Groove is in the Heart.
@Raven Onthill: @Omnes Omnibus: Thanks.
Any idea on when they might rule?
@Peale: Thanks, will try. Right now the prospect of traveling and being hassled when returning is too frightening.
@skerry: The justices promised a ruling as soon as possible and that’s all I know.
Davis X. Machina
Gonna need a lot of Gauleiter soon. These people are the go-getters, polishing their resumes.
You don't need orders when you're "Working towards the Führer“.
@Raven Onthill: Judges, dear. Judges.
@Omnes Omnibus: When is a judge a justice?
@skerry: It is likely that we will have a decision by the end of the week.
@schrodingers_cat: Supreme Courts only.
Just a heads up: the outrage of the day is officially declared a tie (and let’s be sure to beat the Republicans about their heads and necks for both)
Trump threatens to a TX state senator’s career…everyone present laughs
Elizabeth Warren tries to read Coretta Scott King’s statement from the 80s (about why Jeff Sessions was a racist and unfit to be a judge)…the Turtle cuts her off, saying “she was warned.”
I’m gonna have a hard time keeping Mrs. Jeffro from heading into DC tomorrow with every sharp object in the house, is all I’m sayin’ …
Reports are that he was subbed in on the case because the more senior lawyers decided that they had conflicts (their previous firm filed a brief opposing the government, so this probably wasn’t a pretext), and had only a few hours to prepare.
But even so, the reports are that he suggested that perhaps it would be okay if the part of the executive order on green card holders was overturned if the rest was left in place, which generally is not something you’d want to do.
As they say, though, the argument isn’t the decision, so we’ll see.
The court issued a statement a bit before the hearing saying it would be within a few days, but it could be sooner if they get it written fast enough. (If it’s unanimous it probably will be faster than if there’s a dissent.)
@Omnes Omnibus: A friend and I once took a cross-country baseball trip across the Midwest, and we met up with various acquaintances all along the way. But this led to a friend of a friend whom neither of us knew joining us for a few stops. Within 24 hours, my friend and I were sick and tired of Zagnar, King of the Schmucks (as I dubbed him). He was the sort of idiot who’d joke about smuggling dope at the border checkpoint. My friend and I kept telling him not to act like an asshole, but being an asshole, Zagnar paid us no heed. We were really hoping he’d get arrested in Toronto, because we planned to shrug and tell him to call the U.S. Consulate and remind him that he shouldn’t act like an asshole, especially in a foreign country. Unfortunately, we were stuck with him until Cleveland.
@Jeffro: What would have happened if she’d kept reading? Was he going to try to physically restrain her?
Agent: Show me what you have.
Trump: Let’s destroy him.
Lackeys: Haw, haw, haw…..
Agent: What do they call you?
Trump and lackeys in unison: The Kakistocrats!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Timurid: as a few people have already said, McConnell has probably ensured that Coretta Scott King will be trending on twitter within a couple of hours
ETA: Elizabeth Warren and LetLizSpeak already trending. I think CSK’s name might have a bit more impact.
As another anecdotal point, my RWNJ brother flew in to Las Vegas from Panama City, Panama, on Saturday night and reported nothing unusual about the flight’s reception or Customs processing.
You know how we see arguments from time to time that there are too many bad law schools turning out too many bad lawyers?
The way things are going, the current maladministration is going to be a WPA for attorneys – more work (albeit useless) then there will be members of the bar to do it.
Dear gods, where did you find that? And why?
@randy khan: Like said. Shit the bed.
@Timurid: Oh who knows…Warren was probably this close to slinging a fistful of ninja stars at him when she realized she was on C-Span and held back.
Seriously though, can someone do the flaming-bag-of-dog-poop thing at Mitch’s house later this week? I’m tied up with the kids’ practices and what not…I’ll owe you one.
@SiubhanDuinne: Nutritious and delicious.
@SiubhanDuinne: Nope. You can’t.
But your certainty of how things ought to be is a great example of how immigration law isn’t just confounding to non-specialists, it’s often irrational in ways that could literally only be the law for people who can’t vote.
I’m like a stubborn child that way, I’m afraid. I’d be a terrible lawyer.
That’s a fraudulent site
It is truly awful.
After I posted, I saw some transcript excerpts on Slate. He did not have a good afternoon.
One thing that always amazes me when I read transcripts like this is how often lawyers think they can get away without answering the judges’ questions. These are smart people – they know when someone is dodging.
@SiubhanDuinne: You’re not wrong, and a lot of very good lawyers have that trait. But immigration law is it own bag, and if people who vote knew about it, that would solve a lot of problems.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
It looks like nobody on Yertle McTurtle’s staff explained this twittler thing to him – that a message can go to the whole world literally in seconds, no matter who he tries to shut up on the senate floor.
They won’t do it, but ‘Fie wuz the Dem caucus, I’d call a press conference and all just stand there with duct tape over their mouths.
@randy khan: The lawyers tend not to be dumb. They avoid answering because they can’t answer. That AUSA was ordered to be there.
@efgoldman: Damn, I had exactly that thought and that picture in my head about 20 minutes ago. All of them, Katie! Except Joe Manchin, of course. Though he did come through on the DeVos vote.
I don’t think he’s dumb – he’s been with the Justice Department for 19 years, and arguing appellate cases probably most of that time. But it’s never good when you don’t answer the question, even if you don’t have a great answer. You get in less trouble with the judges for giving an answer they don’t like than not answering.
For reference, here’s one of the excerpts from Slate’s article:
(As an aside, I’m not particularly convinced that he did much for himself on the standing issue when he finally did answer.)
Warren is live-streaming on Facebook now, reading the Coretta Scott King letter.
I’m getting the feeling that this was planned all along, but if not, the Dems are improvising pretty well.
@Southern Beale: The Stanford Experiment is currently running at airports and border crossings all over the USA.
@randy khan: What did he have to work with?
Villago Delenda Est
@PhoenixRising: They apparently have no adult supervision now.
@randy khan: IANAL, but I heard some of the hearing on the radio on the way home. The Washington AG seemed to be making the point that the lower court explicitly stated his (hold – or whatever) shouldn’t be interpreted as an (injunction – or whatever), or something. And that the appeals court shouldn’t rule on the merits without giving the lower court the chance to hear the evidence, let them do discovery, and the whole nine yards. That kinda made sense to me, but it would certainly draw out the decision-making process even more, wouldn’t it?
Any thoughts on whether this appeals court will keep the (injunction or whatever) in place, kick it down to the lower court again, and let things stew there a while rather than making a quick ruling?
It seems to me, again IANAL, that this is a horrible EO that needs to be struck down quickly and forcefully, but we want to get the details of the decision right. EOs have a rightful place in our national government, but they cannot be used to let a no-nothing racist upend hundreds of thousands of lives on a whim – without any input on the legality, practicality, and implications from the rest of the government. The President isn’t a king. Getting the decision right so that it isn’t shrunk to nothingness by some SCOTUS that is willing to create even more mischief is very important.
@trollhattan: I’ve never traveled to Iran or North Korea, but I’m going to guess you’ve never traveled to Israel. I hold a US passport and the equivalent of an Israeli green card. Entering Israel for me has never been as unpleasant as entering the USA. And I say that as a pudgy, unthreatening middle-aged white guy. If you’re the right ethnicity*, Israeli border security is far more efficient, organized, and less designed-to-intimidate than American. They have a job to do and so they don’t have time to fuck around waggling their dicks at people.
*Yeah, if you’re the wrong ethnicity, it suuuuuuucks. (You don’t even have to be the wrong ethnicity yourself, you can just be associated with the wrong ethnicity, like my Swedish-American friend who had a kid with the scion of an East Jerusalem political family. Every time she brings the kid to visit its dad, it’s three hours in an interrogation room getting yelled at. But even then, they always let her in.) Anyway, I’m just making the apples-to-apples comparison of me.
@mai naem mobile: Not gonna describe the two other similar incidents that come to mind. Sufficiently similar that …. well, as a dusky-hued person, I would never approach a stranger’s door at night, at least, not in -those- states. It happens more than before, it seems. The optimist in me wants to believe that hate crimes are also reported more widely than in my chlidhood. The pessimist fears that they’re increasing.
I suspect the pessimist is right.
@Laura on Kaua’i: I’m asking b/c I’m naturalized, as are a number of my family members. Like: >30yr ago. Uh …. my understanding was that a US passport was sufficient proof of citizenship? Why would you need to carry adoption papers? I’m sorry, not asking obtusely. Rather, if there’s some reason that a passport is no longer enough …. well, that’s a big change, isn’t it?
At that point, citizenship is no longer … citizenship.
@Omnes Omnibus: Heh. Yer bringin’ back memories. I worked for 3yr in France in the early 90s. Arrived in Sept ’91, not knowing how to ask where the WC was. Literally. Took a month of Alliance Francaise, and would go around with my dictionary, trying to conduct conversations with vendors. Always started in French. Invariably ended in English. And in the middle, I would end up saying something like “I’m so sorry, I apologize, my French isn’t so good, b/c I’m learning; is it possible that you speak English?”
This was in Paris — the place that eerybody says is full of gruff Parisians who hate foreigners. Gotta say, I never had a problem. Everybody spoke English, and everybody was helpful. And I’m a dusky-hued lad. Maybe it was my Panama hat and pink shirt.
Americans … shit, overseas we’re an embarrassment, with our inability to understand that other people have countries and cultures and nations and pride.
@skerry: my thoughts when I read this
Laura on Kauai
@Chet Murthy: Yes, you would think a passport would be enough proof of citizenship. However, for all three of our adopted children, their earlier passports were not proof of citizenship – we had to provide their citizenship certificates for renewal. Something to do with them being born in China, we were told but I think it was more the clerk at the post office was racist. So, we are wary, and just want to cover ourselves.
You’re right though – if the passport isn’t enough to prove citizenship, then we are in more trouble than we imagine.
@Laura on Kaua’i:
Enthusiastic second. I voted for Shay Chan Hodges in the last primary. Hoping she’ll get her shit together enough to mount a serious challenge in 2018.
@Laura on Kauai: Oh, interesting, you did it in-person at the post office. I recently (like: <1mo ago) renewed my passport (it had lapsed for -quite- a while, feel much relief now) and by-mail. Basically mailed in a check, the picture, the form, and the old passport. Took less than a month IIRC. And I'm a dusky-hued sort, who has been variously mistaken for being Mexican, Guatemalan, Egyptian, and various other middle-eastern countries, as well as Indian.
Heh: also, I -completely- get that the clerk at some post office could be a bag of hammers about it. The great thing about jobs like that, is that you have basically unreviewable power to fuck with people's lives, and only your common decency preventing it. Though from what my Hawaiian friend K. tells me, that -ought- t be much less common on Hawaii than on the mainland (but obv, having never lived there, what do I know?)
In any case, as others have said: keep those certificates locked-up. Heck, get second copies issued and put 'em in a bank safety-deposit box.
I took the day off from work last week to go with my wife and daughter to renew/get passports for a planned trip this summer. Medford OR passport office CLOSED, not enough personnel at post office. Ashland passport office CLOSED, only open for a few hours a week. Drove to Rogue River Post office. Clerk very friendly but would not accept my wife’s birth certificate, something about not having parents’ names on it (it did). I had to get a new BC in 2007 because my original one is no longer accepted as proof (no raised seal). Clerk wouldn’t accept it because parents’ names not on it. Had original BC so she took that and sent them both. “Hopefully they’ll accept it!” Daughter born in 2003 was not a problem.
My wife went to Medford next day and they accepted her BC no problem (??). I guess I’m going to have to get a THIRD BC now. They keep changing the rules. Perhaps this is normal red tape, but it makes me nervous.
At the very least, these clowns who talk about how EASY it is to get a voter ID have their heads up their asses.
Not much, but in that circumstance it’s usually better to rip off the bandaid than draw attention to what you don’t have.
From what I’ve read, sending it back to the trial court with the temporary restraining order in place is an option. Since the press would play that as a loss for the Administration, I could live with it.
This is obscene. I visited Berlin in the 1980s and went thru Check Point Charlie. The intimidating guys who were carrying guns were the bad guys. Not the Americans. We have lost our minds. Our only slim, hope is this shit disrupts the lives of .0001%ers enough that they object and the crumbs of their objection shower down on some of the lesser people. Fuck them all.
I know this is way down on the list of issues right now because he’s still a white* american, but I’m genuinely worried about my brother. He’s a natural-born american citizen, but he’s been living/working in refugee camps in Lebanon and Turkey for the past several years, and before that he was working in Afghanistan. He’s currently negotiating to take another two-year contract in either Beirut or Amman. I’ve already seen stories of American citizens who have spent “too much” time in that part of the world being questioned inappropriately when they’ve gone to get their passports renewed overseas (which I’ve diligently passed along to him). As well as people who are from “non-list” countries being harassed and detained.
And this is to say nothing of his girlfriend, who he’s been with for several years now, who is a Lebanese national. She had trouble getting a visa to come visit BEFORE this all started. I don’t know if they’re thinking about getting married, but if they are, I’m starting to think he may never come home again – or even if he would want to.
*by most definitions. Given how Steve Bannon feels about Jews, we may be designated a suspect class at some point as well.
Alain, do you mind if I post/link this on fb?
How much is this costing, to meet every plane like this? This is insane?
@Chet Murthy: IME, in the last few years a passport is not necessarily sufficient. I was born in a state that voted for Trump, but am non-white. I’ve had more than a few incidents where despite the fact it says “Place of Birth: Red State, USA” right on the passport, my citizenship has been called into question or completely disbelieved. Only once at the border, the other times while applying for jobs. All those incidents have taken place in the last 4-5 years. In the new world order, I don’t think one can presume that citizenship is citizenship.