I’ve been banging the drum that Cassidy-Collins is a plausible framework of a deal since January. It still is in play.
Let’s start with a statement from Senator Cassidy (R-LA) from last week:
“There’s a widespread recognition that the federal government, Congress, has created the right for every American to have health care,” he said, warning that to throw people off their insurance or make coverage unaffordable would only shift costs back to taxpayers by burdening emergency rooms. “If you want to be fiscally responsible, then coverage is better than no coverage.”
And then he was on CNN pitching Cassidy-Collins last night:
! @BillCassidy pitching his Cassidy/Collins health care bill on @CNN: We return power to states
— Deborah Berry (@dberrygannett) March 27, 2017
Cassidy-Collins as currently written needs a lot of work. People much smarter and more informed than me have told me that there are significant ERISA issues in Cassidy-Collins as currently written. But as a start of a discussion that could conceivably aim for 65 or more Senators getting on board, this is a vehicle which could entrench the expectation that everyone gets some decent if not great coverage.
Democrats should be happy about opt-out enrollment, alternative coverage pathways for Medicaid expansion eligible individuals and solving the “Mississippi Problem.” They should also be happy that this bill cements a blocking coalition for future major cutbacks to medical care eligibility and services.
Democrats will be disappointed in the gross under-funding of the bill. Cassidy-Collins as currently written projects to spend roughly 95% of what the ACA spends to cover significantly more people. On-Exchange subsidized actuarial value averages to be a little better than Gold and similar to Medicare. Spending a little less money on a lot more people will mean that the average actuarial value will crash and deductibles and other out of pocket expenses will increase.
But those are areas of negotiation within a shared framework and expectations. A Senate deal is plausible. And it looks like a gang of 10 could be forming in the Senate.
Joe Manchin wants one of those bipartisan Senate gangs to fix Obamacarehttps://t.co/8fFQERTK7w with @bridgetbhc pic.twitter.com/nMr7tOCAYV
— Niels Lesniewski (@nielslesniewski) March 28, 2017
There are significant policy concerns that would need to be hashed out in the Senate. There is one major political concern. Any bill that comes out of the Senate would need a House Speaker willing to Boehner himself to get it to the House Floor where it would pass with at least 50% of the minimal winning coalition comprised of Democrats. I have no idea how that happens.
But we need to keep an eye on Cassidy-Collins and figure out if there is a good reason to productively engage (in my opinion yes) and then actually see if good policy can be made.
efgoldman
Do they want to fix it, or “fix” it?
germy
Sanders: ‘I’m Going to Introduce a Medicare-for-All’
http://www.cnsnews.com/…/sanders-im-going-introduce-medicare-all-single-payer-program
1 day ago – Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vermont) says he will introduce a single-payer, Medicare for all bill.
oldster
David, I think you are savvier than I am on the politics, and I know you are a lot smarter than me on the policy details.
But I have to say that my reaction to this line of thought is: no way.
No way am I going to open the door to bargaining with Republicans about a plan for healthcare. I cannot believe that anything good will come of it. Not now, not when there is a Republican in the White House and majorities in both houses.
Until we get past an election or two, and retake at least one of those centers of power, we have no veto-points, no way to check an out-of-control process. So we should not even consider agreeing to start one.
Obamacare is by no means perfect. But if we start negotiating with Republicans now, even with Collins and Cassidy, they will steal everything that Obamacare has accomplished. Ryan tried to do it clumsily. These people will do it more cunningly.
Let’s just wait for a few years, and a few more shifts of power, before we think about making nice with *any* Republicans, for *any* reason.
Corner Stone
“It’s a tarp!”
Sab
&@oldster: I am also an oldster (but not quite old enough for medicare) and I heartily agree.
clay
That’s pretty smart, actually. It demonstrates a willingness to be reasonable while setting a condition that will almost certainly never be fulfilled.
satby
@germy: if course he will. Because the way to cement a victory is to immediately start a divisive battle about something that has absolutely no chance of passage just to highlight the greater glory of….himself. God, I hate that stupid fucker.
Facebones
@oldster: Agreed. There are fixes Obamacare needs, but I’ll be damned if I trust Price, Ryan and Trump with the final say.
It’s a non starter anyway. No way in hell Ryan agrees to anything that doesn’t denigrate and torture poors.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Gang of ten… Manchin, obviously. A bit surprised to see Kaine named in the article. Heitkamp, probably. McCaskill and Tester have tough races coming up. Donnelly? Bennett’s always eager to pose for a bipartisan picture.
I wonder if the public pledge not to repeal is Schumer’s poison pill, and Minchin’s too dumb to know it.
NCSteve
Four words: tire rims and anthrax. That is all.
Tripod
McConnell was always the smart(er) one.
Whatever he (and Ryan) puke up is DOA, but at least he’s trying to give his caucus some political coverage.
germy
@satby:
But he is a powerhouse in the senate and will push the bill through until it is signed into law.MomSense
@germy:
Can’t he just fucking co-sponsor the single payer bill that Rep Conyers has been introducing for the last 13-14 years? Conyers introduced it again in January of this year.
And the stupid thing is that Sanders keeps proposing ridiculously simplistic bills and then acting like anyone who doesn’t support them is a corporatist sell out. Sanders is way past his sell by date with this routine.
I’m not sure what to think of Cassidy Collins. It is absolutely unacceptable in its current form. The question for me really is what appetite is there in Congress to attempt health care again? 45 clearly doesn’t have the skills to champion legislation or make deals between the warring factions in the GOP. I don’t think the current Cassidy Collins has much of a chance in the House let alone a more realistically funded and improved version.
So let’s imagine I had the chance to go visit with the gentle lady from Maine about a few fixes she could propose to turn ObamaCare into an improved CollinsCare. What items would I propose to her?
So far here is my wishlist.
Close the Medicaid Gap and increase reimbursements to incent more providers to offer services to Medicaid patients
Turn the 400% FPL cliff into a gentler slope
Restore risk corridors
Provide funds for navigators to do more sign up clinics in rural areas and areas in general where people who need help don’t have access to internet and cell plans with enough minutes to be on hold for 45 minutes.
Then I recall there is a problem that some people bump into with employers providing plans that are too expensive to enroll qualifying spouses and dependents but prevent access to the exchange. Richard if you have the term for this I’d appreciate it as well as any other additions you might make to my wish list. I can already make a constituent specific case for all the items on my list.
MattF
I definitely and specifically don’t trust Ryan. He has an agenda, and it’s not healthcare– it’s Randian ‘freedom’. My current guess is that there will be a second, rushed attempt to disguise a tax cut for the rich as RyanTrumpcare2, and that will be that until the next Congress. It’s possible, in the future, that an actual moderate healthcare coalition could emerge– but who knows?
rikyrah
I’ll say it again..
I don’t trust Collins.
When it came to the original Obamacare, we had 44 do all the heavy lifting, and her simple simon behind STILL wouldn’t vote for it.
Color me skeptical.
Barbara
The only bill worth considering is one that makes things better. There can be adjustments like the opt-out, which some people might not find appealing, but that are on the side of giving more coverage to more people and stabilizing the system. But anything that is underfunded should be DOA. And, really, my view at this point is that the ACA provides a clear pathway for most people to obtain coverage (and if more states accepted Medicaid expansion that would be even clearer). Tweak it, whatever, but the next goal should be addressing or at least studying ways to bring down the per unit cost of health care and the excessive utilization entrenched in the U.S. health care system. That will make insurance affordable all by itself. We just won a significant if only medium-term victory. We shouldn’t be offering to negotiate against ourselves right out of the starting gate.
rikyrah
@MattF:
TELL IT
TELL IT
You have this sociopath going on any kind of media, telling that it’s been a lifelong dream of his to deprive poor people of healthcare..
And, you think we’re supposed to trust that muthaphucka?
PULEEZE.
Buskertype
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Manchin isn’t dumb, and he isn’t a republican. he’s a classic WV dem… socially conservative and utterly beholden to the coal industry but otherwise pretty good on economic issues and especially healthcare. He won’t sell us out on this.
amk
What part of last 8 years do the dems not get?
Never.Trust.A.republican
amk
@MattF: Yup. Proof.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Never say never, but I think for reasons of ideology and class warfare, the goons in the House might not even let Ryan bring up for a vote something with Senate Bipartisan prints on it
japa21
@germy: Medicare is horrible insurance. If we were ever to go single payer, it would have to be something far better than Medicare.
Barbara
@MomSense: There is no appetite. Believe me, when you have a health care initiative fail the feelings are so raw and the potential for political fall out so vast that it is usually a minimum of 10 years before anybody tries again. But Ryan told his convention of donors he would be visiting the issue again because health care is “just that valuable.” This is like Willie Horton explaining that he robbed banks because “that’s where the money is.” The only reason Ryan will keep trying for what he calls health care reform is because that’s the only place he can pull money from and give to wealthy people without running into procedural rules on the deficit. Manchin has the right idea, but for heaven’s sake, there is no way C-C could get through the House and it seems like a misguided use of political energy at this point.
rikyrah
@MomSense:
UH HUH
UH HUH
Barbara
@japa21: It’s not horrible insurance, it is just horribly fragmented the same way most pure indemnity insurance is. It was created for the status quo of 50 years ago, and its basic structure has not been changed, although an increasing percentage of people receive benefits through private insurers paid by the government.
amk
@Barbara:
Bingo. Dems are in a much stronger position now after the last week’s pathetic fubar. More and more red states will now realize Obamacare is a cash cow for their states and would want a taste of it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Exactly, it’s not what he’s doing, it’s that he can’t do it, or anything else, without turning it into a “Democrats are the real enemy” fight. I posted last night that a former Obama staffer is having a medical crisis, and Jim Messina tweeted out a link to his go fund me page. 90% of the responses were Wilmerites spite-tweeting about “I guess you guys wish you hadn’t killed Single Payer”.
tobie
@MomSense:
What a great list! I think we need to make “Fix It, Don’t Replace It,” our mantra for the next few years. The fact that Collins refuses to work with the existing structure and improve it proves to me she’s a publicity whore. She wants her name on a big bill, something for posterity so she can claim a yuuuge legislative accomplishment. How frustrating it must be for these GOP critters. They hear all the time about “Sarbanes Oxley” and “Dodd Frank” and they’ve got nothing to show for themselves.
amk
They lie, cheat, obfuscate every fucking day on every fucking thing. Why would anyone with a commonsense trust them?
germy
@amk: They lie, cheat, obfuscate every fucking day on every fucking thing. Why would anyone with a commonsense trust them?
MomSense
@tobie:
I think there could be some way to call their ObamaCare is burning in a fiery death spiral bluff. If they are so concerned about the impending failure of the disastrous ObamaCare then here are five things they could do.
Barbara
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: What irks me more than anything is that most of these people don’t seem to have any clue about how Medicare actually works. The baseline program does not cover outpatient prescription drugs, charges 20% coinsurance for all Part B services, and significant cost sharing for inpatient expenses, has no maximum out of pocket spending limit for those costs, and would cost the average beneficiary $11,000 per year, including the Part B premium of around $100 per month. Part D is an add on, for an average cost of around $40 monthly, and Medicare Supplement is an add on to that, for an average premium — which varies greatly geographically — of $150 per month. Those reduce the co-insurance, etc. Or, you can enroll in Medicare Advantage, which ends up giving you better drug benefits (trust me on this) as well as some additional benefits that vary a lot by region, and reducing your guaranteed monthly expenses to around $150 per month (basically, by half), but with the potential for up to $6000 maximum out of pocket expenditures.
ETA: Which is all to say, that even Medicare is not a “single payer’ program because of the reliance of nearly all beneficiaries on some kind of private insurer to cover some or all of their costs. These people, literally, have no clue what they are talking about.
ETA again: And those that can’t afford private insurance are often backstopped with Medicaid or other public programs. Around 20% of Medicare beneficiaries have Medicaid coverage as well.
germy
@japa21:
I remember people telling me about seniors being forced to sign over ownership of their homes to their children (deserving or not) to be eligible. I thought “that can’t be right” visited the medicare website and saw the cheerful, smiling advice about “transfer of assets.”
Of course if you are childless, or if your child is an adult meth addict living on the other side of the country… oh well.
NorthLeft12
@Barbara: I think you mean Willie Sutton. Willie Horton is either the infamous rapist/parolee that helped to sink Dukakis, or [since I am a Detroit Tigers fan] a power hitting outfielder for the Tigers who was a key member of the 1968 team that won the World Series.
Calouste
@germy: Sounds like the donations to the Wilmer
slushreelection fund are slowing down. Need something to fire up the Bernistas and get them to pull out the checkbook.MomSense
@amk:
I don’t think any of us are trusting them. The problem is that they are promoting, with full media cooperation, the death spiral BS. Right now 45 is basically saying that once it fails he’ll do something grrreat. We have the momentum and we should turn that into demands for commonsense fixes that would fix the problems they are shouting about. If they refuse to fix the problems I think there is sufficient citizen engagement on this issue to cause problems for these GOP members.
And it is also critically important that we make sure Ossoff wins and that we do well in all the special elections coming up.
delk
At the very least it would keep my ERISA attorney husband busy.
Barbara
@NorthLeft12: I knew I had that wrong somehow! Thanks.
germy
@Calouste:
I thought they were all tapped out after donating to the Dr. Stein re-count.
Barbara
@germy: You guys, there is a difference between Medicare and Medicaid. No one has to transfer any assets to become eligible for Medicare. Medicare covers nearly every elderly person in the country for inpatient services automatically, and for a premium of $105 monthly, it covers Part B (most but not all outpatient services). Medicaid is a program that is limited to certain classes of people defined by their status and their income level (e.g., pregnant women up to 200% of the FPL).
MattF
@germy: The hot potato of paying for nursing home care gets tossed back and forth between Medicare and Medicaid. Basically, Medicaid will pay for nursing home care if your assets and income fall below a certain minimum level, but you apply for the Medicaid benefit through Medicare. At least I think that’s how it works.
oldster
Yeah, I would not even push for “fixes”, even “common sense fixes”. In my view, the safest slogan to use for the next stage is:
Fully fund Obamacare. If you do not fully fund it, then you are responsible for the breakdowns.
As David has explained, the main ways that Trump can sabotage Obamacare involve nickel-and-diming various funding measures.
So that’s what Congress has to do: pass legislation to fully fund Obamacare.
Any changes that are more fundamental or more structural than that should wait until we own several branches of government.
We can press Congress on this, and they can do it without tampering with any of the moving parts.
schrodingers_cat
@germy: They can always go to Putin and the Ruskis.
Elizabelle
I will take my cues from how Nancy Pelosi reacts to this. I realize she is in the House, not Senate, but I trust her for being very proactive in protecting Obamacare.
I don’t trust Susan Collins one damn bit. She’s the queen of looking like something she is not.
I worry that the Republicans are just going to try to rebrand Obamacare as a Republican “improvement” — since their rightwing house organs (Fox and the MSM) have told us OCare is a failure, a failure, we tell you, and about to explode — and water it down significantly.
Do not trust Republicans. There are not enough good and trustworthy ones to make it a safe wager.
Elizabelle
Shorter Elizabelle: deal with this after 2018. Hold the fort in the meantime.
Hafabee
@Buskertype: I agree, Manchin is not dumb. He is far (very far) from being my ideal Dem, but has managed to be, is must continually be looking to stay, elected as a Democrat in WV — no easy thing these days. As a West Virginian, I just called his home office to express, generally, my empathy for being the last standing Dem in WV, and, specifically, my thanks re his comments quoted above, especially taking repeal off the table as a condition to sit down and talk about improving the ACA. The aide seemed genuinely grateful for the support, and said the Manchin is trying to stay above politics (uh, sure, Joe, sure you are) to do what is right for West Virginians. I took that opportunity to say that while I understand and appreciate that position, I think that he should indulge the politics of filibustering any non-Garland SCOTUS nominee. The aide chucked when I added “especially from this corrupt and inept Administration”.
oldster
About Ossoff–I kicked in what I could, and now I see he has $3m. Does he need more cash than that? Can it even be put to good use down there?
If I thought the answer were ‘yes,’ then I might send another widower’s mite. But if this is 300 times as much cash as that district normally gets (I think I saw that usually the Dem gets about 10k?), then I’m not sure it makes sense for me to pile more on top.
Maybe they need phone-bankers or polling-taxis or something, but not more cash? I’d like to hear from someone on the ground there.
MomSense
@Elizabelle:
That Fox and GOP friends are pushing disaster is why we need a list to put them on the defensive for a change. If you are really concerned about the health of the markets and the millions of us who depend on this for our health care, here are five things you could do. If not you can shut the fuck up and find some other way to give your wealthy benefactors their sweet, sweet tax cuts.
germy
@Barbara: Will medicare cover long term nursing home care? By long term I mean years, not two months? I hope so, because I don’t plan on being a burden to my kids.
rikyrah
@Barbara:
SAY IT.
SCREAM IT.
YELL IT.
SAY IT OVER AND OVER AND OVER.
THIS is the only reason why the ZEGK will keep on pretending that he has a ‘healthcare bill’.
That was a TAX CUT BILL masquerading as a ‘healthcare bill.’
Barbara
@MattF: No, that is not how it works. Medicare covers what it covers regardless of where you live, and many Medicare beneficiaries live in nursing homes. Medicare does not cover room and board or custodial care of the kind that gets delivered in a nursing home. If you move to a nursing home and run out of money (spend down your assets in Medicaid speak) you can qualify for Medicaid. Your spouse might be able to stay in the family home, but this is a seriously complicated legal specialty all on its own. As to other family members, your putative heirs, you can try to transfer assets, but in most states, the transfer has to be completed at least three years before the family member starts claiming Medicaid benefits, or else the assets are still counted and the state won’t pay for the care.
Sab
@germy: No it won’t. Only covers a couple of months. That’s why there is a whole legal industry for putting your property into trust for your kids so that you qualify for Medicaid. Which is one of the things that Ryan care intended to upend.
Barbara
@germy: Medicaid covers long term care. Medicare does not. It covers skilled nursing facility benefits, which are in the nature of rehabilitation, not residential care.
David Anderson
@Barbara: And that is the key question — who do we measure “better”
Better for someone making 401% FPL in Michigan?
Better for someone making 175% FPL in New York?
Better for someone making 99% FPL in California?
Better for someone making 99% FPL in Texas?
What is the counterfactual and what is the value weights of these different possibilities of “better”
germy
@Sab:
What should childless couples do? Put their properties into trust for Ryan?
NorthLeft12
While I am grateful for our [Canadian] health care system, it does not cover any prescription drugs, dental, vision care, transportation [ambulance] or most physiotherapy and other related medical equipment. That is why a lot of Canadians have supplementary health insurance either through work or on their own. The good news is that there is no limit to the coverage and drug costs are somewhat held down through intervention by the Canadian government and the availability of generic substitutes.
I am not sure what kind of coverage this would equate to in the US [bronze, silver, some amalgamation?] but it is not the perfect coverage that some in the US might think it is.
Barbara
@Sab: It has already been upended. States got tired of funding nursing home care for wealthy people who would rather spend their money on their children than nursing home care.
Sab
@oldster: Send cash to Sherrod Brown in Ohio. He has been so effective that the Kochs crew will really be gunning for him next year.
Barbara
@germy: Visit an an attorney who specializes in the area to determine the rights of the spouse in your state. Nearly all states have some law that provides relief to the spouse not living in a nursing home, that permits them to stay in their family residence.
NorthLeft12
@NorthLeft12: But, just to be clear, I am very happy to have it and pay taxes for it for me, my family, and fellow Canadians.
It is still a work in progress as far as I am concerned.
schrodingers_cat
Collins is not what she seems, she is no moderate, that’s her camo. Trust her and you will regret it. Its a guarantee.
rikyrah
@amk:
NC and Kansas stepping up for Medicaid Expansion.
NC because they have a Dem Governor.
And Kansas…about to do it over Brownback’s veto.
MattF
@Barbara: Thanks.
germy
@Barbara: Thank you.
artem1s
sing it. jerk is campaigning again. he needs to shut the fuck up and start paying attention to the next round of cuts for the rich. BTW his little stunt of playing grandpa at all these town hall to ‘connect’ with the WWC Cult45 voters…Hillary was there 2 years ago. Why wasn’t the press all over that? Oh, yea, I remember they were felating the two guys holding rallies and promising rainbows and unicorns to everyone.
Sanders is just waiting in the weeds so he can shiv anyone who tries to primary him. He’s not quite to Lieberman land yet, but he keeps wandering over that way. Don’t trust that MF. Wait to see what he does on Gorsuch’s cloture and Ryan’s Skinny Budget.
Steeplejack (tablet)
@germy:
1. Your link returns “Permission denied.”
2. CNS News appears to be a pretty right-wing site.
3. If the other senators even notice that Sanders introduces something, the mean ones who skip hearings and hang out in the bathroom smoking cigarettes will pull his shirt over his head and stuff him in his locker. The legislative equivalent will happen to his bill.
Buskertype
@Hafabee: I always enjoy talking to Manchin’s staff… I think they like hearing from lefties
MomSense
@germy:
Leona Helmsley left her estate to her dog.
hovercraft
@amk:
So long as ZEGS is saying shit like this, I think Cassidy-Collins is a waste of time.
http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/3/27/1647812/-Paul-Ryan-says-the-Trumpcare-nightmare-is-just-going-to-continue
Now he could be saying that because he has to. This is what these donors bought and paid for when they installed this congress, so he doesn’t want to tell them that they wasted their money. But throwing people off of “government run” healthcare is a lifetime ambition for him too, so I don’t think he’ll just give up. This senate proposal as bad as it is from our point of view, is far too generous from ZEGS point of view.
So while it’s interesting that some GOP senators feel obligated to propose something, the concessions they would be required to make to get democrats on board would make it impossible for ZEGS to get a significant number of his caucus members to go along, assuming he was so inclined, which in of itself is doubtful.
Kass
@Barbara:
Willie Sutton robbed banks. Willie Horton was used to demonize Dukakis’s campaign.
Sab
@MomSense: You can’t leave your estate to your dog. Dogs aren’t legal people. You can only leave your estate to a person you trust will take care of your dog.
hovercraft
@rikyrah:
The irony here is that it’s Brownback’s ineptitude that’s forcing them to opt in. He’s bankrupted the state and so now even republicans are willing to finally accept evil money from Obamacare. Desperate times.
amk
twitler admin sought to block Sally Yates from testifying to congress on Russia citing ‘presidential communication privilege.’
This is a completely venal and corrupt admin and not even in office for 100 days yet.
MattF
@rikyrah: However, it doesn’t look like there are enough Senate votes in Kansas to override a Brownback veto. We shall see.
Jerry
And the NC Repubs that control the state legislature have not yet driven the state into such a condition that they need to take on Medicaid expansion. For example:
“But for some reason he (Cooper) is still beating a dead horse and pursuing Obamacare expansion in open defiance of the law,” Berger, R-Rockingham, wrote Friday, distributing his reaction to the ruling via Facebook.
Bodacious
I’m sorry, but focusing on a cooperative solution does not go hand in hand with drinking the cool aide. I don’t trust ’em (Repubs), I’m still smarting from every scam they’ve pulled off in the last 40+ years…..but we have to stay in the game and keep our needs/wants/desires relevant. Just pounding sand and saying No Way doesn’t make our side reasonable. Momentum and sentiment is on our side and should not be squandered. But we need to slowly move the ball forward, and in my view that means engaging in talks/planning/negotiations. The way forward is with determination, focus, and dignity. Mandela baby!
hovercraft
@Jerry:
Cooper should remind the public and the media at each and every pres avail that morons like this one cost the state bigly.
They may not quite be where Kansas is, but that’s only because the good folks of NC had the wisdom to evict McCrory. His pupetmaster Art Pope may still own the legislature but Cooper can block the worst of their policies.
Dunwoody Housewife
@oldster:
I agree on the cash for now–he may need more for a run-off if there is one. The outside repub groups will flood the airwaves if it is him and a repub. I would think you can phone bank from anywhere–I haven’t done that for Ossoff so I don’t know if they have it set up to do remotely. Their website:
https://electjon.com/
Also there is also a 6th district task force formed by the Democratic party of the three counties that this district spans–Cobb/Fulton/Dekalb and you can phone bank for them. It’s not a for a specific candidate but right now voter education is still important:
http://facebook.us12.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=58e32629281529fc3c1dc30f0&id=fd2f947197
I live in the district and I knocked on doors for past 2 weeks and we are still finding out half the people you talk to still don’t know about the special election. Your average democratic voter who doesn’t read political blogs (like this one ;-) or watch the local news and is frankly trying to eek out a living, just doesn’t know about it. The personal contact makes a difference.
Jinchi
@oldster:
Exactly. There is no point in joining in any grand bargain with the current Republican party. Their ideology on healthcare is diametrically opposed to the Democrats. Cassidy plus Collins plus every Senator in the Democratic caucus gets us to 50 ( and defeat by Pence’s 51st vote). There is also no guarantee either would end up voting for their own bill. They would also need 25 “moderate” House Republicans willing to lose their seat in the next primary and Paul Ryan willing to put the bill up for a vote.
There is no universe where this happens without serious poison pills being added. If Democrats want to campaign on improving health care, let them offer a truly universal plan without all the Republican baggage.
schrodingers_cat
Cooperating with the Republicans will undermine the grassroots resistance and send them into the waiting arms of the Soviet funded Bernistas. It is political suicide.
amk
@Bodacious:
Mandela, who was imprisoned for over a quarter century by white man? He is your supporting argument here? Really?
schrodingers_cat
@Jinchi: Exactly, they want to kill us and DA and some commenters here are singing paeans to cooperation. Even infants have better instincts of self preservation.
amk
@Jinchi:
Bingo. It’s Lucy and the effing ball all over again. Schumer better nip this in the bud.
Corner Stone
@Bodacious:
You mean internal and within the different Democratic factions? I agree. We should always be strengthening those ties and bringing more like minded, or nearly like minded, voices in to keep momentum going.
But if you mean talks and negotiations with R’s? No fucking way. Once we have a check in place on the process, House, Senate or WH then we can certainly see if there is anything reasonable to work on. But until then we should not open the kimono. They will fuck us just as fast and hard as they can.
Corner Stone
ZEGS is at the podium lying his tiny little balls off.
schrodingers_cat
@Corner Stone: But according to our resident wonk we need to cooperate with slimy Republicans like Collins.
ETA: Cooperate where you can trust the other party. When was the last time Rs in Congress showed that they could be trusted?
David Anderson
@schrodingers_cat: here is the thing. The GOP can kill the exchanges if they want to and they can do that without a single Democratic vote.
schrodingers_cat
@David Anderson: Will Democratic cooperation stop that from happening?
ETA: Or what hovercraft said, let them pass their shit sandwich, own it and pay the price at the polls. Democrats should not lift one little finger to help them.
Corner Stone
@schrodingers_cat: That can be the problem with being a wonk. You get wonked out on the wonkiness of the policy and may not weigh the politics appropriately. Not saying he is necessarily doing that, but I tend to see we’re going to get fucked first – and then try and wrap up the wonk part. Usually I don’t have to get to the policy part because I feel confident we’re going to get fucked on the politics part. The policy people like to discuss how policy works.
hovercraft
@schrodingers_cat:
I’m with you, Obama and Reid had to go crawling to “centrists” like Collins with all sorts of concessions to get them on board. Let them come crawling to democrats with their concessions and then we’ll talk. @amk: is right, after all those concessions Collins et al walked away, so I don’t want to see anyone conceding anything until these assholes show that they’ve worked with ZEGS and there is a plausible way forward. No democrat should have to fall on their sword to support let alone vote for a shit sandwich that has no chance of passing both houses and being accepted by the democratic base. Our side passed an imperfect bill, aspects of which many of us didn’t like, we paid the political price for that bill, and the media went along with the GOP lies about it. Now is not the time to help them replace it with something worse all in the name of bipartisanship and getting something done.
They promised to repeal and replace, we didn’t, why the hell should we help them? The only thing they can pass on their own is something everyone will hate, so let them try to pass that and own it.
hovercraft
@Corner Stone:
In other words, it’s a day ending in ‘y’.
randy khan
I think the Dems in the group should be Manchin, Brown, Sanders, Franken, and Schumer. I’d sub McCaskill or Heitkamp for Franken in a pinch.
Corner Stone
@schrodingers_cat: One of the more recent examples I refer to is No Child Left Behind. They sold Ted Kennedy a bill of goods, got him to then sell it, passed it and then fucked Kennedy over but good.
schrodingers_cat
Look at who is the AG, who is running the show at the White House. Any Democratic capitulation sends a message, to religious and racial minorities, immigrants and other vulnerable groups that they are expendable and do not matter.
hovercraft
@David Anderson:
I get that, but I don’t think they can destroy it without leaving fingerprints.
Sab
@schrodingers_cat: Our resident wonk is NOT SLIMY. He might unfortunately be a realist. Since I buy my insurance in the real world, I tend to listen to him. (not meaning this as an an attack on you , s cat, but I am old enough to take my insurance very seriously)
James E Powell
Any deal with the Republicans is a bad deal. It will do nothing to help senators in tough re-election campaigns. The people who vote in midterms will still hate them because they are Democrats.
Democratic senators facing tough re-election campaigns would fare better if they worked to animate Democratic voters.
schrodingers_cat
@Sab: He is not slimy but he is being politically oblivious.
artem1s
Collins just announced voting yes on Gorsuch. Sry, no deal until we see a willingness to stand up to GOP leadership. You get nothing
schrodingers_cat
@artem1s: She is no moderate. She only plays one for the camera.
GregMulka
@MomSense:
I think the term you’re looking for is, “Healthcare and childcare will eat one of our salaries so what the fuck am I working for?” tier.
Not catchy, I know. And a little blue but as Mr. King said, “Never say excrement when you mean shit.”
TriassicSands
@oldster:
Yes, it’s important to remember that Collins could have signed on to the PPACA. She chose to be a Republican instead. Her sincerity is questionable.
Just One More Canuck
@NorthLeft12: And depending on where you live, the provinces have delisted and limited payment for various services over the years – here in Ontario, physiotherapy used to be covered (now it’s limited to a relative few circumstances), and payment for eye exams have been cut back over time (to give a couple of examples)
TriassicSands
@schrodingers_cat:
Exactly, she plays a moderate and then, when it matters, she votes with her leadership. And her leader is the Grand Obstructionist McConnell.
schrodingers_cat
@TriassicSands: Can anyone show me Collins voting with the Democrats where it has really mattered.
NorthLeft12
@schrodingers_cat: And the gullible electorate in her home state.
germy
@schrodingers_cat: I don’t believe that has ever happened.
Fair Economist
I don’t see any point for a Dem to actually sign on to Cassidy-Collins. Net, it reduces access to healthcare. The only benefit is the Medicaid alternatives, but for every dollar end-run around reactionary state government it takes two away from somebody else who also needs it. I can see a political benefit to talking and pretending to support it, but actually doing it – why?
grandpa john
@hovercraft: They also lost the hosting of any NCAA championship playoff games in any sport. Mens basketball early rounds went from perennial host Greensboro to Greenville SC. Greenville folks welcomed and extended their thanks for the shift of all the money involved i
Shana
@delk: You have one of those too? Cool.
schrodingers_cat
@NorthLeft12: I used to live in Maine, I know.
Sab
@Sab: I was defending our policy wonk, not Collins. She is just like my R Sen from Oh-ho-ho Portman who, following the venerable Oh-ho-ho tradition of Voinovich, says one thing to the press and votes 180 degrees the opposite side. And gets credit for what he says not how he votes.
Raven Onthill
David, you still think Republicans are normal politicians, willing to compromise. They are not, and any appearance that they are is deception.
And if the Dems give away Obamacare after the fight they just won, they will be an ex-party.
No.
Jinchi
@David Anderson:
Which is why the Democrats have no leverage with which to push a better health care bill, right now. If the Republicans kill the exchanges, they own the chaos. Trump is in the driver’s seat now and has openly stated that his plan is to let Obamacare “explode” and rebuild a new plan out of the wreckage. I don’t think people are going to have difficulty assigning blame when one party is openly cheering on destruction while the other party is fighting for the law.
Once Democrats sign on to a Republican deal, the exchanges are in the cross-hairs with “bi-partisan” backing.
Barbara
@Raven Onthill: Seriously, Ryan is already talking about resurrecting his dead health care bill. There is no way C-C comes out of the House as anything other than what we just spent all kinds of effort defeating only with the bipartisan luster of having passed in the Senate. I am not looking forward to the sabotage that Price is planning for the exchanges, but he will own that and we will just have to fight it as best as we can. How they think they can be “in charge” and not be in the crosshairs when bad stuff happens is just beyond me. The ACA can work. It worked for three full years without them.
Tim C.
Is there any example of Collins voting against her party’s interests in anything that mattered? She voted against Devos, but inky because the GOP had enough votes anyway… seriously, any examples?
Barbara
@Tim C.: She also voted to let Devos get out of committee, and that’s the vote that mattered. No, there are no examples. She is a complete fraud.
MomSense
@Tim C.:
Not many. She did vote for the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act.
ETA I actually think she and Lieberman both voted to end Don’t Ask Don’t Tell.
I can probably count them on one hand and it would take me some time to remember.
Barbara
@MomSense: She and Lieberman voted for it only after (along with Olympia Snowe) making sure that it was watered down so that more of its value was diverted to tax cuts and less to infrastructure that might have put more people back to work more quickly. Working with them was the right thing to do to get it through quickly. I don’t know Cassidy, but I don’t believe he was in the Senate in 2010, but Collins was, and she is not an honest broker in any matter related to health care. Her failure to vote for the ACA in 2010 should be proof of that.
MomSense
@Barbara:
I’m not saying she’s an honest broker. I’m saying that now that 45 and the rest are pushing the waiting for ObamaCare explosion meme, we should call their bluff and assert some of our momentum and political capital to either get them to adopt our improvements or leave it alone.
I think it was actually Arlen Specter who demanded cuts not Lieberman much as I find him repulsive and would like to blame all the things on him.
Barbara
@MomSense: There was a group that asked for tax cuts. Certainly, we can ask for improvements as we define them. We don’t go forward with their vision of what counts as improvement.
Yutsano
@NorthLeft12: It blew my brain a little bit when RedKitteh told me that Canadians do file for medical bankruptcy, it’s just much less common than down here in the US. There is also a Canadian medical deduction but it’s my understanding it’s nowhere near as generous as the US one is even with our new rules.
#TheMoreYouKnow
billyboy
@tobie:
I’ve found this piece by Charles Gaba extremely lucid and succinct, fwiw.
http://acasignups.net/17/04/01/updated-if-i-ran-zoo-16-recommendations-obamacare-20