Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Marge, god is saying you’re stupid.

Bark louder, little dog.

A norm that restrains only one side really is not a norm – it is a trap.

I am pretty sure these ‘journalists’ were not always such a bootlicking sycophants.

If you thought you’d already seen people saying the stupidest things possible on the internet, prepare yourselves.

Hell hath no fury like a farmer bankrupted.

Republicans want to make it harder to vote and easier for them to cheat.

“Until such time as the world ends, we will act as though it intends to spin on.”

Is it negotiation when the other party actually wants to shoot the hostage?

Nancy smash is sick of your bullshit.

Teach a man to fish, and he’ll sit in a boat all day drinking beer.

Jesus watching the most hateful people claiming to be his followers

When someone says they “love freedom”, rest assured they don’t mean yours.

They want us to be overwhelmed and exhausted. Focus. Resist. Oppose.

People identifying as christian while ignoring christ and his teachings is a strange thing indeed.

The poor and middle-class pay taxes, the rich pay accountants, the wealthy pay politicians.

Lick the third rail, it tastes like chocolate!

“Perhaps I should have considered other options.” (head-desk)

Our job is not to persuade republicans but to defeat them.

Prediction: the gop will rethink its strategy of boycotting future committees.

I swear, each month of 2025 will have its own history degree.

Washington Post Catch and Kill, not noticeably better than the Enquirer’s.

Do not shrug your shoulders and accept the normalization of untruths.

No one could have predicted…

You are here: Home / Pure excitement, misled

Pure excitement, misled

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It’s beginning to look a like obstruction:

The White House’s chief lawyer told President Donald Trump in January he believed then-national security adviser Michael Flynn had misled the FBI and lied to Vice President Mike Pence and should be fired, a source familiar with the matter said Monday.

Most you know this but the upshot is that Trump asking Comey to go easy on Flynn is obstruction of justice if Trump knew Flynn committed a crime.

Reader Interactions

154Comments

  1. 1.

    LAO

    I can already hear the apologists and enablers — how could Trump have known that lying to the FBI is a crime? Is that really a crime?

  2. 2.

    Hildebrand

    Who will be the first sitting Republican, one not planning on retiring, to call for Trump to do, well, anything, should Mueller tag him with an obstruction charge?

  3. 3.

    Mike in DC

    Fortunately, the obscure 1975 statute, the It’s OK If You’re A Republican act, sets forth a clear immunity from consequences for members of a certain protected class.

  5. 5.

    clay

    So the eternal question… who leaked it? It seems damaging to Trump. Is it CYA by the lawyer? Can Don survive a legal team that either a) (allegedly) tweets out incriminating statements, or b) leaks damaging to his case?

  6. 6.

    George Spiggott

    The WH keeps saying that Flynn also lied to Pence, which is not true.

    Won’t work on Mueller.

  7. 7.

    low-tech cyclist

    Doug, don’t you mean “It’s beginning to look a lot like obstruction” ?

    (yeah, cram *two* earworms into one post.)

  8. 8.

    LAO

    @Mike in DC:

    the obscure 1975 statute, the It’s OK If You’re A Republican act, sets forth a clear immunity from consequences for members of a certain protected class.

    That is pure genius.

    @catclub: I’ve actually had to explain to people that lying to the FBI is a federal offense (feel free to lie to the NYPD, though). It’s gotten easier though, since Martha Stewart went to jail.

  9. 9.

    MomSense

    What has been bothering me is that I have been hearing pundits comment that if the collusion was just during the transition it isn’t the game changer that collusion during the campaign would be. Meanwhile I’m shouting that obstruction, witness tampering, violating the emoluments clause, and a few other things are all impeachable offenses.

    I hope Mueller proves it was Donald J Trump himself in the tower with the calls to Putin but that shouldn’t be the standard for whether or not to impeach.

  10. 10.

    Mike J

    @clay: I think it’s Uday or Qusay. They think that firing Flynn because he lied to the FBI makes Trump look good.Then they skip over the Comet stuff.

  11. 11.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @LAO: I can already hear the apologists and enablers — how could Trump have known that lying to the FBI is a crime? Is that really a crime?

    they’re already halfway there

    Will Saletan‏Verified account
    Lindsey Graham, who led Bill Clinton’s impeachment for lying and obstructing justice about Monica Lewinsky, now brushes off @jdickerson’s question about Flynn and FBI, saying: “What Flynn lied about is not a crime.”

  12. 12.

    catclub

    @LAO:

    I’ve actually had to explain to people that lying to the FBI is a federal offense

    The youtube video that advises “Don’t say ANYTHING to the police” made an impression on me.

  16. 16.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @MomSense: Brian Beutler‏Verified account @ brianbeutler
    I will die on this hill.
    I’ll be dead and people will still be talking about “alleged collusion.”
    But at least I’ll be dead.
    “To say collusion allegations remain unproven is materially misleading. Collusion has been conclusively proven.”

    also from Beutler’s twitter, this almost literally made me spit coffee, from a story about Ivana

    “She suggested the name Donald, Jr., and her husband hesitated: ‘What if he’s a loser?’”

  19. 19.

    lgerard

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Will Saletan‏Verified account
    Lindsey Graham, who led Bill Clinton’s impeachment for lying and obstructing justice about Monica Lewinsky, now brushes off @jdickerson’s question about Flynn and FBI, saying: “What Flynn lied about is not a crime.”

    It’s the return of the no underlying crime meme we last saw in the Scooter Libby case!

  20. 20.

    SFAW

    @lamh36:

    Never forget that 48 years ago today the FBI & Chicago Police Dept conspired to murder Fred Hampton in his apartment because they were afraid he was creating a multiracial political coalition to challenge those in power. He was just 21 years old.

    I remember his murder. I was not yet politically aware enough to know that was why, but I knew it was a murder. Motherfuckers.

  21. 21.

    Brachiator

    @Mike in DC:

    Fortunately, the obscure 1975 statute, the It’s OK If You’re A Republican act, sets forth a clear immunity from consequences for members of a certain protected class.

    Ha! Very true.

  22. 22.

    piratedan

    @lgerard: yeah, but the lie itself IS a crime because of who the lie was told to… there, is that parsed well enough for you now Senator Graham?

  31. 31.

    SFAW

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Lindsey Graham, who led Bill Clinton’s impeachment for lying and obstructing justice about Monica Lewinsky, now brushes off @jdickerson’s question about Flynn and FBI, saying: “What Flynn lied about is not a crime.”

    Too bad he forgot that about a blowjob between consenting adults.

  32. 32.

    MJS

    While not the most important point, it’s good to know that Trump views as “a good guy” and “feels badly for” someone who he “knows” lied not only to his VP, but to the FBI.

  33. 33.

    Jack the Second

    @SFAW: I’m hopeful that nowadays if you were told someone was creating “a multiracial political coalition” the typical response would be “cool”, and not to say “My. God.” while taking off your 1960’s horn rim glasses to stare off into the distance in quiet terror.

  34. 34.

    trollhattan

    So when Trump repurposed “no puppet, no puppet” to “no obstruction, no obstruction” over the weekend (yelling over helicopter noise or something) he was basically telling us he committed obstruction.

    Meantime, the gang who couldn’t shootsteal straight done fucked up the Senate bill markup.

    The GOP had originally intended to abolish the AMT. But on Friday, with the clock running out — and money running short — Senate Republicans put the AMT back into their bill. Unfortunately for McConnell, they forgot to lower AMT after doing so.

    This is a big problem. The Senate bill brings the normal corporate rate down to 20 percent — while leaving the alternative minimum rate at … 20 percent. The legislation would still allow corporations to claim a wide variety of tax credits and deductions — it just renders all them completely worthless. Companies can either take no deductions, and pay a 20 percent rate — or take lots of deductions … and pay a 20 percent rate.

    With this blunder, Senate Republicans have achieved the unthinkable: They’ve written a giant corporate tax cut that many of their corporate donors do not like.

  35. 35.

    Immanentize

    @LAO: Hi LAO!
    I am more concerned that many Federal Courts will agree that the President can opine on any action of his legislative branch, as long as the Courts were not yet involved. I am pretty sure there was no grand jury at the time of the Trump/Comey chat, but there may already have been warrants issued which would make the request to lay off obstruction. But it is not yet clear to me what constitutes the crime when it is your boss’s boss who is asking the questions or making the suggestions. Impeding an on going investigation maybe? I’m sure Dreeben and your buddy NYC jerk guy are all over this subtlety, though. It’s what Dreeben at least lives for.

  36. 36.

    germy

    @lamh36:

    FBI & Chicago Police Dept conspired to murder Fred Hampton in his apartment because they were afraid

    And they had no such fear of stuntclown Jerry Rubin, who would have lived to a ripe old age if he hadn’t wandered out in front of a car.

  37. 37.

    Raoul

    the upshot is that Trump asking Comey to go easy on Flynn is obstruction of justice if Trump knew Flynn committed a crime

    Curious, would it be ‘knew’, or the somewhat more broad ‘knew or had reason to believe’? The latter seems incredibly easy to show at this point.

  39. 39.

    Raoul

    @hitless: Is that the Dershowitz garbage? In a way, he is doing us all a service, since Trump probably believes it, and wrote the confession tweet perhaps thinking he can’t be busted for it.

  40. 40.

    Immanentize

    @LAO:

    People, never talk to the FBI.

    This times infinity. You talk to the FBI only AFTER the deal is cut.

    And, this is critical practical information — ALWAYS ASK FOR AN ATTORNEY!
    Being macho and just saying, “I don’t want to talk to you.” is a dangerous half-path. So, repeat this in the shower every morning so you are ready when they are pointing guns at you and your pets screaming profanities and threatening to blow your effin head off.
    “I want an attorney. I want an attorney. I want an attorney. I want an attorney. I want an attorney. I want an attorney. I want an attorney. I want an attorney.”
    Say nothing else ever.

  41. 41.

    LAO

    @Immanentize: You have asked some good questions. Time will tell. How have you been? I haven’t been around much — I was hired to second seat a 4 week trial about 3 months ago. Today marked week 10 of trial. I’m goofing off today, trying to catch up on other things.

  45. 45.

    NickM

    @Hildebrand:

    Who will be the first sitting Republican, one not planning on retiring, to call for Trump to do, well, anything, should Mueller tag him with an obstruction charge?

    That depends – do dogcatchers count?

  47. 47.

    Immanentize

    @LAO:

    Today marked week 10 of trial.

    Ah, a run of the mill federal conspiracy trial, is it?

    I’m OK. I’m trying to get my head back into the game. Sadly the legal/financial/social security/estate crap I have to go through (while being stupid headed with grief) is like Jarndyce and Jarndyce,

  48. 48.

    Roger Moore

    @trollhattan:

    Meantime, the gang who couldn’t shootsteal straight done fucked up the Senate bill markup.

    Somebody might even claim the reason for all those procedural steps the Republicans bypassed in their rush to pass this thing is to avoid precisely this kind of dumb-ass mistake, but I guess that would be shrill.

  49. 49.

    LAO

    @bemused: The denial will be couched in some kind of insane 1st Amendment freedom of speech argument. I’m not fluent enough in right-wing speak to express it any better,

  50. 50.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Hildebrand: I can see several stepping up to argue that Trump can’t obstruct justice. His attorney is already making that ridiculous claim. Republicans will get behind their President and defend him to the max. And if Democrats don’t flip Congress next year, he’ll be in office until 2020. But I’m pretty optimistic that we can flip COngress next November since Trump is doing his best to tick off the majority of Americans (who haven’t lost their minds as yet).

  51. 51.

    TenguPhule

    @Hildebrand:

    Who will be the first sitting Republican, one not planning on retiring, to call for Trump to do, well, anything, should Mueller tag him with an obstruction charge?

    None of em, Katie.

  52. 52.

    TenguPhule

    @Patricia Kayden:

    But I’m pretty optimistic that we can flip COngress next November since Trump is doing his best to tick off the majority of Americans (who haven’t lost their minds as yet).

    I thought you said a majority.

  53. 53.

    Gelfling 545

    @Raoul: While it remains remarkably difficult to demonstrate that Trump actually knows anything on any subject whatsoever.

  54. 54.

    TenguPhule

    @trollhattan:

    The Senate bill brings the normal corporate rate down to 20 percent — while leaving the alternative minimum rate at … 20 percent. The legislation would still allow corporations to claim a wide variety of tax credits and deductions — it just renders all them completely worthless.

    This is the best news I’ve read all day.

  55. 55.

    LAO

    @Immanentize: No, not the feds this time, just an incompetent state prosecution team.

    I wish that you and the Imp had more time before real life intruded on your grief — but life isn’t often fair. A lesson neither of you need at the moment.

  56. 56.

    Immanentize

    @eric:

    an act in furtherance

    Not sure just what you are referring to — you mean the underlying crime stuff? If so, there is no requirement that the thing you lied about had to relate to a crime itself — it just had to be a lie about something that was relevant to the investigation. This translates into, you cannot be charged if your lie is about some minor, irrelevancy — like if you are discussing a car theft and you lie about whether your socks were clean the week before or not. Unless clean socks were somehow involved in the investigation, then you are again screwed. Supreme Court just had a similar case on the topic of minor lies to get citizenship.

  57. 57.

    Spanky

    In the event somebody would like a Schadenfreude cherry on top of their Schadenfreude sundae:

    A former producer at Fox News sued Bill O’Reilly in federal court on Monday, alleging that he defamed her by denying that anyone had complained about his conduct and by implying that she and other accusers were financially and politically motivated.

    Rachel Witlieb Bernstein also alleges that O’Reilly violated the non-disparagement clause of their 2002 confidential settlement. Bernstein’s case was one of five reported by the New York Times on April 1, which ultimately led to O’Reilly’s firing from Fox News.

  58. 58.

    Immanentize

    @LAO: Ten week state trial? Most death penalty cases I’ve worked on didn’t last half that long. And, on the topic of taking time, I have had it super easy compared to most — I had no teaching obligation this semester, so I have spent all my time trying to learn how to be a good single Dad to the Immp. I am teaching International Criminal Law next semester — wanna come up and talk about grand jury practice?

  60. 60.

    Raoul

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: “She suggested the name Donald, Jr., and her husband hesitated: ‘What if he’s a loser?’”

    Well, yes, what if he is. This is pretty much in the ‘there’s a tweet for everything’ category!

  62. 62.

    Roger Moore

    @TenguPhule:

    This is the best news I’ve read all day.

    Yes. I’m frankly amazed that the Senate somehow managed to write a bill so horrible the House is unwilling to just sign off on it as-is in order to get it passed without needing to fight through the Senate again. Let’s see if they can manage to screw up the conference version badly enough that one house or the other refuses to pass it.

  64. 64.

    TenguPhule

    @Roger Moore: Now we know why Ryan couldn’t ram it through as is. Big Corporations might have actually had to pay more taxes. Lol.

    Let’s see if they can manage to screw up the conference version badly enough that one house or the other refuses to pass it.

    I’m all in favor of a government shutdown at this point to grind the whole process to a halt.

    Desperate times, desperate measures.

  66. 66.

    ET

    That tweet was an idiot move regardless of who sent it. I could see tRump doing this bonehead move ’cause tRump, but if the lawyer did it, I can’t fathom why he thought it would do tRump any good. Aren’t lawyers supposed to look out for their clients?

  67. 67.

    Immanentize

    @Roger Moore: They have no idea what is in the bill. I will happily wager large cash sums that several parts of the bill conflict 1) with current law that is not repealed and 2) internally conflicts directly with other parts of the bill. In my role as a law professor, nothing could make me happier for the future employment prospects of my students — we even have an accelerated tax program at my school!

  68. 68.

    WaterGirl

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Holy shit. So the kids just come out one way or another? Loser or not loser? Good to know. No wonder Daddy Trump treated Donald J. so badly – he clearly popped out with LOSER on his forehead.

    So appalling that a human being would talk that way / think that way about their child that is about to be born! Mommy, tell me a story about you and Daddy right before I was born. Were you excited about me? No, darling, Daddy was worried that you might be a LOSER.

  69. 69.

    LAO

    @Immanentize:

    wanna come up and talk about grand jury practice?

    You could do much better than me. Just yesterday I was explaining to a non-lawyer what a bottom-feeder was. During the course of my explanation, I realized I was describing my legal career.

  70. 70.

    WaterGirl

    @LAO: If you didn’t know lying to the FBI was a crime before Martha Stewart went to prison, you surely knew it after that. Also, whatever happened to “ignorance of the law is no excuse”? Also, wouldn’t the FBI be pointing out in their interview that lying to the FBI is a crime???

    These guys are dumber than the 3 stooges.

  72. 72.

    Raoul

    @Roger Moore: Ahh, this is good news. The AMT screw up (and I’m sure there will be others as the clerks try to decipher lobbyist handwriting) means Ryan can’t just ram through a vote of approval of the Senate bill.

    I just got a ‘House target list’ email for calls re: the conference process. When we get a thread on that, I’ll share it.

  75. 75.

    Amir Khalid

    @LAO:
    That kind of defence seems certain to get a person convicted. If Joe Nobody doesn’t get to plead ignorance of the law, I rather doubt that POTUS gets to do it.

  76. 76.

    MJS

    @Immanentize: I’m sorry to report that all tax returns will now be filed on a postcard, so employment prospects for tax attorneys are pretty dim. I know this because the President said so, and even had one of the postcards.

  77. 77.

    Fair Economist

    @trollhattan:

    Meantime, the gang who couldn’t shootsteal straight done fucked up the Senate bill markup.

    As many of us here and elsewhere predicted, a bill written in such haste with no oversight is riddled with errors. I admit missing the AMT for corporations is an even bigger mess-up than I’d have expected, but then again we are talking Republicans here.

  78. 78.

    TenguPhule

    @LAO:

    Just yesterday I was explaining to a non-lawyer what a bottom-feeder was. During the course of my explanation, I realized I was describing my legal career.

    Ouch.

  79. 79.

    Boatboy_srq

    @LAO: The GOTea: congenitally incapable of telling the truth to the federal government, the US populace, and the planet since 1968.

  81. 81.

    Raoul

    BTW that CNN story about McGahn having told Trump before the Comey firing strikes me as having Pence’s fingerprints on it (indirectly, probably). It seeks to continue the theme that Flynn lied to Pence. And, since it also seems to throw tRump under the bus, it’s a double plus for Pence.
    Not that he is in the least innocent. But he’s gonna try like hell to look like he is.

  82. 82.

    TenguPhule

    @WaterGirl:

    Also, whatever happened to “ignorance of the law is no excuse”?

    Does not usually apply to Republicans if they get a white judge/jury.

    /I wish I was joking.

  83. 83.

    TenguPhule

    @Roger Moore:

    It brings new meaning to “we have to pass it to find out what’s in it”.

    Isn’t it amazing that every single accusation that Republicans have thrown at us for the last twenty years or so has turned out to be true…because they’re the ones guilty of doing it.

  86. 86.

    jl

    @LAO: The scumbag Lindsay Graham tried to sell the idea that Flynn lying was no biggie on one of the weekend news talkies. The worthless corporate hack interviewer pretending to be an intrepid journalist said something like ‘gosh golly gee’, or maybe nothing.

    I think Face the Nation and the miserable Dickerson. So, you can hear it in real life already if you hanker for it.

  87. 87.

    Kay

    Former consumer watchdog Richard Cordray is set to launch his long-anticipated bid for Ohio governor on Tuesday.
    The Democrat planned to make the announcement in his hometown of Grove City, southwest of Columbus, an adviser to his campaign told The Associated Press. The adviser spoke on condition of anonymity because the information was not yet public.
    The 58-year-old Cordray is viewed as among Democrats’ strongest contenders to seize a critical swing state from Republicans next year.

    Mike DeWine will be his opponent, unless Trumpster/Tea bagger Mary Taylor wins, but she won’t because Trumpsters don’t like women

  89. 89.

    Spanky

    @Immanentize: I think Lady Loofa is ancient history, and that this refers to his latest $32M “indiscretion”.

    ETA: Stop the presses! I just caught the “2002 settlement” in the article, so this looks to be Lady Loofa after all!

  91. 91.

    jl

    One things about Flynn is that this is a case where, I think, it is demonstrable that the cover up is NOT worse than the crime. There is strong evidence in public that Flynn intervened to change national security related foreign policy (in WARTIME!!. OFG!) in a way that favored his undisclosed foreign paymasters. And looks like there is a lot more like that infamous Flynn deed coming down the pike.

    Edit: but scumbags like Graham get on national TV and lie that it is a big kerfluffle over nothing. The miserable corrupt hack Dickerson sits there and let him say it. I read through the transcripts of Dickersons hideous enabling of McConnell and Graham. And I contrasted that with his treatment of King. And hearing from an actual Democrat was too crazy for the smooth con man Dickerson.

  92. 92.

    Immanentize

    @Spanky: Yes and no — I read it as this woman signed a deal in 2002, complete with mutual non-disparagement clauses, with Bilbo (and FOX) that she claims he is NOW violating. The timing is about right…

    ETA — I see you got that.

  93. 93.

    Kay

    I myself thought Husted was the best candidate for the GOP in Ohio but I don’t know them anymore, so maybe they like DeWine better.

    Anyway! Cordray can win. so that’s good news

  94. 94.

    Kay

    Preet Bharara: “I have a lot of experience with John Dowd, repped some high profile people in cases before my office, and he said then—as he’s saying now—a lot of incorrect, mistaken, and on occasion ludicrous things, so I don’t put a lot of stock in it.”

    i love that Trump has a really expensive but terrible lawyer.

    He’s bad at hiring. He picks bad people.

  95. 95.

    Immanentize

    @jl: So I see Flynn as trying to get the foreign countries to do three things:
    1) For Russia to not freak out and retaliate regarding Obama’s election interference sanctions.
    2) For a large number of countries, including Russia, to slow walk or stop the UN security counsel vote regarding illegal Israeli outposts, and
    3) coordinate with Russia (and some other countries?) regarding the Republican platform language on Ukraine.

    I expect to see a huge amount of emphasis on #1 which sounds benign or even positive! But a big effort to bury and keep the media from examining number 2 and 3.

  96. 96.

    Yarrow

    Obstruction of justice is going to look very minor when the rest of Trump’s criminal activity is made public. Tick tock, motherfuckers.

  98. 98.

    jl

    @Immanentize: I don’t have time now to go look up the details, but what I was referring to was Flynn’s effort to get an Obama initiative on military operations in ISIS conflict in Iraq/Syria theater changed to suit Russia and Turkey. an effort which I believe was successful.

  99. 99.

    Immanentize

    @Yarrow: I agree. But I think “obstruction” (as is “lying to the FBI”) is an easily recognizable “bad thing” for most Americans because the Republicans have been hawking it as a vile awful crime since Bill Clinton was elected.

  100. 100.

    Immanentize

    @TenguPhule: Really good point. That should be in my list as #4 — I am sure there are others too.

    ETA @jl: Same as my response to T.P. There should be a list made, but I too must abandon the Balloon for a bit.

  101. 101.

    TenguPhule

    And Trump keeps undoing what President Obama did, purely out of spite.

    Just shrunk the protected monument lands that were enacted.

  103. 103.

    Brachiator

    @Immanentize:

    They have no idea what is in the bill. I will happily wager large cash sums that several parts of the bill conflict 1) with current law that is not repealed and 2) internally conflicts directly with other parts of the bill.

    I printed out a page for some co-workers. It contains barely legible scribbles down the right hand margin.

    There is some craftiness at play here. Reading through it I see some sections that may conflict with current law. But I also see them trying to clean up (for the benefit of the wealthiest taxpayers) part of the law pertaining to some types of trusts that has been unsettled for decades.

    There is also a provision relating to bonus depreciation that would become effective September 27, 2017. This date almost certainly benefits some very special friend of some Congress person.

  105. 105.

    Calouste

    @Immanentize: I don’t think why they thought 2) would be successful. That vote or something similar comes up more or less every year in the UN Security Council, and the vote was always 14-1. Except for a few micro-nations that Israel has literally bribed for their vote, the US is the only country that votes in their favor on these issues.

  107. 107.

    catclub

    @trollhattan: I think they (senate) also left in the personal AMT (or did not adjust it where he needs it)- Trump will be pissed about that if he ever realizes.

  108. 108.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @LAO:

    I can already hear the apologists and enablers — how could Trump have known that lying to the FBI is a crime? Is that really a crime?

    I would think the argument “Trump is so caught up in his childish, self made, narcissistic fantasy world he has created that he has no idea what the truth is anymore” would be a better defense.

  110. 110.

    SFAW

    @debit:

    Are you trying to imply that Lindsey knows anything at all about blowjobs? Oh dearie me and possibly lawks.

    Actually, no, just that when (at least) one of the consenting adults is a Demonrat, then there’s no barrier too tall for Graham to hurdle in pursuit of “justice” or some such.

  111. 111.

    low-tech cyclist

    @TenguPhule:

    Its gotten to the point you need a program or a venn diagram to keep track of all the players and their offenses.

    Hell, yes. Watergate was simple compared to this.

  114. 114.

    TenguPhule

    CHUCK TODD: Alright, if the debt is unsustainable at $14 trillion, how do you, how did you make yourself comfortable voting for something that’s going to increase the deficit? This tax bill we’re at 20.6 trillion now and the best estimates saying it’s going to even the best estimates of dynamic scoring that we could still find still add half a trillion dollars to the deficit.

    SEN. SUSAN COLLINS: Economic growth produces more revenue and that will help to offset this tax cut and actually lower the debt.

    CHUCK TODD: Where’s the evidence? Where, explain to me. Find a, find a study that actually says what you’re claiming.

    SEN. SUSAN COLLINS: Let me–

    CHUCK TODD: It doesn’t exist.

    SEN. SUSAN COLLINS: Let me do that. First of all if you take the C.B.O.’s formula and apply it four to four tenths of one percent increase in the GDP generates revenues of a trillion dollars, a trillion dollars. Even the joint committee on taxation has projected that the tax bill would stimulate the economy to produce hundreds of billions of additional revenue. I’ve talked four economists, including the Dean of the Columbia School of Business and former chairs of the councils of economic advisors and they believe that it will have this impact. So I think if we can stimulate the economy, create more jobs that that does generate more revenue.

    CHUCK TODD: But why isn’t there a single study? I’m going to show you three studies that we have, sort of a liberal one, a centrist one, and a conservative one right up there. The most conservative one, the most pro-economic growth argument, still adds $516 billion to the deficit over ten years.

    SEN. SUSAN COLLINS: Well, talk to economists like Glenn Hubbard and Larry Lindsey and Douglas Holtz-Eakin, who used to be head of the C.B.O. And they will tell you otherwise. So I think you will find that economists just don’t agree on this.

    Susan Collins represents every horrible cliched stereotype that degrades women.

    All of them.

  115. 115.

    Immanentize

    @WaterGirl: Sorry, WG, it was totally snark. I spend a good deal of time with my students on what that phrase actually means in practice….

  116. 116.

    jl

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    ‘ Lindsey Graham, who led Bill Clinton’s impeachment for lying and obstructing justice about Monica Lewinsky, now brushes off @jdickerson’s question about Flynn and FBI, saying: “What Flynn lied about is not a crime.” ‘

    Graham is complete scum. As I said above, there is good public evidence that Flynn successfully intervened to change US national security/military operations in Middle East, in order to conform to the wishes of his undisclosed foreign paymasters. Unbelievable. When I have time later today, I need to go look up the details. I think it concerned anti-terrorism operations in Syria/Iraq.

  117. 117.

    catclub

    @Raoul:

    The AMT screw up (and I’m sure there will be others as the clerks try to decipher lobbyist handwriting) means Ryan can’t just ram through a vote of approval of the Senate bill.

    That sure sounds like good news to me.

    But I wonder, how do those giant corps pay no federal tax even when there is an AMT for corporations?
    Must be carryovers of some sort.

  118. 118.

    Immanentize

    @Brachiator:

    bonus depreciation that would become effective September 27, 2017.

    Bad bad bad earmarks! Bad!

    I am actually a proud supporter of earmarks (although a less seniority driven version than what we used to have) because it democratizes at least a little bit of pork spending and it usually went to good community programs helpful to re-election.

  122. 122.

    catclub

    @Immanentize: I think part of the reason this passed was that the GOP decided that if there were no Democrats voting for it, all the earmarks in it could be just for Republicans and they got in line to get all of them written into the bill.

    This suggests they will really not want the bill debated in the House. Too bad about that Corporate AMT.

  123. 123.

    jl

    @catclub: Well, I dunno, the miserable corporate hack Dickerson, on national TV this weekend, seemed to go with McConnell’s savvy opinion that complaining about process was for losers. So what if big chunks of a tax bill are indecipherable lobbyist scribbles put in the bill a few hours before the big vote to pass it? You don’t sound like a sound man, or a savvy hep cat with a cynical understanding of how politics works.

  124. 124.

    LAO

    @TenguPhule: I got that you aren’t happy with her — I’n not either. I just, as a woman, don’t see her quite the same way that you do. And, I wasn’t trying to be snarky, I just wanted to know what you meant.

  127. 127.

    J R in WV

    @trollhattan:

    This is so funny – they went right around all the formalities that exist JUST to prevent this kind of mistake, and blew their tax bill right out of the water.

    Shame the conference committee can just put it back the way their owners wanted it and have both houses vote for the amended fixed piece of work. And I do mean fixed !!!

    Can’t have the owners pissed of at us, can we? Can We>??

  128. 128.

    TenguPhule

    @LAO:

    And, I wasn’t trying to be snarky, I just wanted to know what you meant.

    All of the things I want to call Collins are things that probably don’t belong in print here. She’s a fake that is long past due for karma.

  129. 129.

    TenguPhule

    Forty-four percent of Americans believe that media outlets fabricate stories about Trump “more than once in a while,” according to the just-released 2017 Poynter Media Trust Survey. The breakdown goes like this: 24 percent believe that the media fabricates Trump stories “about half of the time,” 14 percent “most of the time,” and 6 percent “all of the time.”

    Giving a serial liar the podium of the Whitehouse, with all the implied authority and past respect it had built up over hundreds of years, has consequences.

  131. 131.

    laura

    @lamh36: Fred Hampton was/is a martyr to racial and economic justice. Fred Hampton was a great American and his name, and the cause he died working towards should be celebrated as a hero.

  132. 132.

    d58826

    @TenguPhule: As I watch what is happening to the country it’s like watching the lights slowly go out on a beloved family member suffering from Alzheimers.

  135. 135.

    Brachiator

    @Immanentize:

    They have no idea what is in the bill. I will happily wager large cash sums that several parts of the bill conflict 1) with current law that is not repealed and 2) internally conflicts directly with other parts of the bill.

    Here’s a little something.

    The Senate GOP Accidentally Killed Some of Its Donors’ Favorite Tax Breaks

    In hindsight, McConnell should have asked for an extension. While Republicans were manically outlining their plans to take from the poor to give to the Trumps, they also, accidentally, nullified all of their corporate donors’ favorite deductions.

    This screwup — like most of the tax plan’s oddest features — was born of a math problem. Due to arcane Senate rules, the Trump tax cuts can only add $1.5 trillion to the deficit over the next decade. Last Thursday, the Senate tax bill already cost about that sum, and then McConnell started making expensive promises to his few holdouts. Susan Collins wanted a $10,000 property tax deduction for Americans in high-tax states; Ron Johnson wanted a 23 percent business-income deduction for the company that his family owns. This left the Senate Majority Leader searching under the tax code’s couch cushions for new sources of revenue.

    Eventually, he came upon the corporate alternative minimum tax (AMT). At present, most corporations face a 35 percent (statutory) rate on their income. But by availing themselves of various tax credits and deductions, most companies can get their actual rates down far below that figure. To put a limit on just how far, the corporate AMT prevents companies from paying any less than 20 percent on their profits (or, more precisely, on the profits that they fail to hide overseas).

    The GOP had originally intended to abolish the AMT. But on Friday, with the clock running out — and money running short — Senate Republicans put the AMT back into their bill. Unfortunately for McConnell, they forgot to lower the AMT after doing so.

  137. 137.

    jl

    @Brachiator: ” Unfortunately for McConnell, they forgot to lower the AMT after doing so. ”

    Over the weekend McConnell reminded the nation that anyone who complains about process just shows that they are losers. The rancid hack Dickerson apparently thought McConnell had a good point, since he confronted the token non-scoundrel Independent Angus King with that sage insight later in the program.

    Edit: From a big funder’s point of view, there is zero excuse for a mistake like that, unless they were changing things faster than they could scribble them down.

  138. 138.

    rikyrah

    @Raoul:

    BTW that CNN story about McGahn having told Trump before the Comey firing strikes me as having Pence’s fingerprints on it (indirectly, probably). It seeks to continue the theme that Flynn lied to Pence. And, since it also seems to throw tRump under the bus, it’s a double plus for Pence.
    Not that he is in the least innocent. But he’s gonna try like hell to look like he is.

    I’ll say it again…
    Race Bannon is delusional if he thinks 45 is going down WITHOUT TAKING EVERYONE WITH HIM.

  139. 139.

    ericblair

    @J R in WV:

    Shame the conference committee can just put it back the way their owners wanted it and have both houses vote for the amended fixed piece of work. And I do mean fixed !!!

    Hey guess what. No they can’t. If it hasn’t been passed in either the House or Senate bill it is outside the scope of conference. Waiver takes 60 Senators, which means fuck no.

    So, that means if the Senate bill issue is unworkable, they have to go with the House bill equivalent. Which probably will blow up the 1.5 trillion limit. Which means yanking something else out of the Senate bill and inserting the House equivalent. Which will make somebody mad. Which will make a complete fucking mess that has to pass both houses of Congress again. Couldn’t happen to a sorrier bunch of asslicking moneygrubbing scumbags.

  141. 141.

    jl

    @rikyrah: That WH line is already a torn poop-stained tissue of lies. There is already stone cold public evidence that all of Trump transition foreign policy team was in on Flynn’s maneuverings and lies weeks before he was fired. Flynn admitted it in his plea deal, and probably Mueller has independent evidence.

    If Trump fired Flynn because he lied to Pence, Trump’s whole non-cabinet foreign policy team has to go as well, since they were covering for Flynn, if that part of the Trump skein of lies is assumed to be true, for the sake of argument.

    No wonder the flunky Dowd has already trotted out the absurd proposition that Trump’s whim IS justice, and the scumbag Graham is peddling the line that Flynn’s is being persecuted for a fib over nothing.

    Reminder:
    Flynn stopped military plan Turkey opposed – after being paid as its agent
    BY VERA BERGENGRUEN
    McClatchy
    MAY 17, 2017 07:27 PM

    One of the Trump administration’s first decisions about the fight against the Islamic State was made by Michael Flynn weeks before he was fired – and it conformed to the wishes of Turkey, whose interests, unbeknownst to anyone in Washington, he’d been paid more than $500,000 to represent.

    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article151149647.html

    Probably more crap like that is in Mueller’s files. No wonder Flynn made a pleas deal. Utter traitorous scum, all of them. And all of Trump’s non-cabinet transition foreign policy/national security team was in on what Flynn was doing. (Edit: IIRC Pence was head of transition, correct?)

  142. 142.

    catclub

    @jl: The AMT rate is the real effective tax rate for big corporations – they will find ways down to that.
    So a big discussion of what the new AMT rate will be relative to the new 20% is probably note what McConnell would like to spread all over the news.

    Too bad. ha ha

  143. 143.

    Mnemosyne

    @Kay:

    I know the Republicans will manage to make it sound like a bad thing that Cordray stood up for the little guy against corporations, but I still don’t get how they can look themselves in the mirror afterwards. They must have some kind of soulectomy.

  144. 144.

    jl

    @Mnemosyne: Malicious liberal Democrat do-gooders have stood in the way of the little guy for more than a century. After the Panic of 1907 the big government Democrat Theodore Roosevelt stopped the little guy from hitting it big by prohibiting no-money-down side bets on the stock market, and ended the unregulated state banks who offered great deelz for no cash upfront.Been going on for far too long. They are going to end the injustice and end it now.

    /snark

  146. 146.

    d58826

    In a perverse (very perverse) way I hope Moore wins. If Roy Moore in the US Senate doesn’t wake up the public to the rot in the GOP then nothing will. If it does wake people up and the GOP pays an electoral price then maybe we can start to inch off this cliff that we are on.

    And now off to drink industrial drano

  147. 147.

    TenguPhule

    @d58826:

    If Roy Moore in the US Senate doesn’t wake up the public to the rot in the GOP then nothing will.

    I thought we said this about Donald Trump already?

  148. 148.

    Raoul

    LA Times has an item up that Manafort has violated the terms of his bail by ghostwriting an oped for a Russian with intelligence ties.
    I thank FSM that Trump surrounded himself with idiots who self-own daily.

  149. 149.

    Calouste

    @Raoul: I wouldn’t be surprised if Mueller gave these idiots deals and bails in the safe knowledge that they would violate their terms.

  150. 150.

    jl

    @Raoul:Trump’s lawyer, John Dowd Esq. has informed us that whatever Trump decides to do, must in and of itself be justice, because Trump himself is president. So, Trump can just grant his cronies personal and universal pardons for whatsoever they may have done in the past, are doing now, or will do in the future.

    Only ignorant and arrogant people like Adams, Franklin, Hamilton, Jefferson and Madison would disagree. But, who cares about them? Losers.

  151. 151.

    oldgold

    I do not think Trump can be impeached for obstruction. Simply put, the House, as currently constituted, will not do it. After the 18 election, that could change, but I doubt it.

    If you want to take Trump down, the focus needs to be on uncovering the activity they were attempting to shield with the obstruction. In other words, forget the old saw “that it is the cover up, not the crime that brings you down.” Here, it will have to be the damn crime. And, that crime is treason.

  152. 152.

    Raoul

    @jl: Ahh, the Trump as emperor idea. No law touches him because all law flows from him. Klassy. F-ked up royalist garbage that, as you suggest, the founders would reel over.

  153. 153.

    Boatboy_srq

    @Mnemosyne: Soulectomies are part of the curriculum at select law and business schools, and are offered at most FundiEvangelist Xtian establishments.

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