Here’s a great story about AOC campaigning in Iowa.
Gary Lipshutz, 77, a liberal who’s been active in Democratic politics since the ’60s, said he’s impressed.
“I mean, you could hear a pin drop in that room, and this is a girl from the Bronx in Sioux City, Iowa!” he said. “I’ve seen 19 presidential candidates this year. I think she had the most magnetism of any of them. Bernie included.” (Lipshutz is caucusing for Warren and came to the rally solely to see Ocasio-Cortez.)
I know that some of you can’t handle the Bernie affiliation. But I agree with Gary: I’ll vote for Warren, but AOC is the real deal. Yeah the adulation of her fans gets a little old, who cares what Michael Moore thinks, and I really wish she would have chosen Warren.
But she also is a happy warrior who gets shit on every day and still fights with a smile. We need that kind of bravery in our party. We need someone who is full of hope, because the main weapon of Republicans is cynicism. Her connection of her personal story to policy goals is authentic and well done. She’s better than a lot of politicians who have been in the game for 30 years. She is not a flash in the pan, and I hope that I’m still standing when she runs for President so I can knock on some doors for her.
( I’m gently joking with WaterGirl, obviously, she didn’t really request this. )
Dorothy A. Winsor
I like her charisma and she seems capable of learning. Give her time, and let’s see where we are.
BGinCHI
Thanks, WaterGirl.
Baud
Despite the Bernie issue, I think most people here like AOC. Doesn’t mean we always agree with her.
zhena gogolia
I much prefer Ayanna Pressley.
Booing Hillary Clinton on the day the Senate Republicans killed America is not a good look. (I realize you’re deflecting from that by focusing on AOC instead of Tlaib.)
A Ghost To Most
BernieBro doing her part to divide the party. No thanks.
Amir Khalid
I was expecting a post about Liverpool FC midfielder Alexander Oxlade-Chamberlain. I am disappoint.
I agree the other AOC has so much potential. I just hope she wises up and grows out of her Wilmer worship.
Baud
@zhena gogolia:
I didn’t have the heart to look at that video. Were they booing Hillary or Hillary’s recent comments about no one liking Bernie? If the latter, although I agree with Hillary, I don’t think that’s necessarily offensive at a Sanders rally.
Betty Cracker
I like her too. Don’t agree with everything she says or does, of course, but she’s smart and hardworking.
The wingnut hate-fetishization on AOC is something to behold. AOC’s mom moved to The Villages a while back. (The Villages is a giant central FL retirement community with a reputation for being ultra-wingnut.) There was an article in a local paper about how she was trying to keep a low profile given the political milieu. I was tempted to invite the poor woman over for BBQ — we’re in the next county over. :)
Omnes Omnibus
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Yep.
Villago Delenda Est
In 2016, I was Bernie-curious. Then the NY Daily News interviewed him, and we were treated to insights into a professional politician who is a rank amateur. Then the cult started forming.
Bernie’s policy ideas are not terrible. I support most of them. However, he has no fucking clue how to implement them, he has no people skills with legislators to persuade them to go along with his ideas, and he’s too in love with the applause from his cultists to change the latter two problems.
He’s as fit to be President as Donald is. That is, not at all.
dr. bloor
She’s going to be as great as she chooses to be. Let’s hope she chooses wisely. Losing the bomb throwing chief of staff was a good start.
dr. bloor
@Villago Delenda Est: Come sit with me.
Immanentize
@Baud: This is exactly where I am at. Of the group of four that the Republicans love to hate on, I think Pressley and AOC have proven the most mature and wisest politicians.
The other two, Tlaib and Omar, seem more and more like bitter cranks without internal editors. But bitter cranks for the left! So, I approve just on the grounds of balance. Why should there be a monopoly on the Republican side? As our coalition grows, so will the number of cranks.
ETA I am also very impressed with Deb Haaland who had managed to stay out of that shit entirely.
Baud
@dr. bloor: Agreed. That was hopeful.
zhena gogolia
@Baud:
I couldn’t watch it either. But they led a round of booing of Hillary, and those who have watched it say it resembled “Lock her up!”
Tlaib has “apologized” sorry, not sorry. She blamed Hillary’s mean comments on the Godhead from Vermont.
Mayur
AOC is dancing with who brung her. I respect that. I may not find Sanders particularly appealing as a candidate, but she owes him and it would be spectacularly weird and honestly create unnecessary waves on all fronts for her to endorse Warren.
and yeah, Tlaib should NOT have shot her mouth off about Hillary that way, though I don’t think that what Clinton said was particularly helpful either. We need to tamp down the goddamn infighting as we stare open fascism in the face. If Bernie is the candidate, I’ll be out there GOTV and phonebanking as hard as I would be for anyone else, regardless of my misgivings.
zhena gogolia
Bernie is in the race to make sure the open fascism continues and is consolidated.
Probably Not an Asshole mistermix
@Betty Cracker: God, the Villages. I know a guy who retired early to live there like it was some kind of mecca. The stories he told about living there made it sound incredibly antiseptic and crushingly dull. But maybe there’s something to it that I can’t understand.
ruemara
No, she isn’t. The choice of gentrification with the idea that her elected seat is a platform for activism. She’s your deal, but she’s not my ideal. And her alignment with the toxic cult of Sanders makes that a double hard pass.
@Baud: nah, son.
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est: I think the majority of people here support many of the end goals that Bernie espouses. I have said on multiple occasions that I would turn the US into a much larger and more diverse Denmark if I were god-emperor. But I am not god-emperor (for which you all should be thankful) and we have to work toward those goals in this world.
Baud
@zhena gogolia:
I hope I don’t end up having to watch it myself.
It’s really ironic given that the “Squad” is going to inherit all the shit the right wing through at Hillary. I thought progressives were supposed to be big on empathy.
Immanentize
@Betty Cracker: You should definitely invite her and a couple of her friends. Back when things were really bad in Alabama, one of my real heroes, Virginia Durr, invited the new preacher at Ebenezer over for dinner. It was a great act of kindness, a bit of courage mixed with righteousness, and a strong signal that he would not be totally isolated even in Montgomery white circles. Powerful act and I encourage you to do it!
TaMara (HFG)
I really liked the entire “Squad” – intelligent fighters that we need.
But, AOC lost me with her attacks on Biden, and RashidaTlaib last night with her attack on Hillary. I will re-evaluate if Sander’s loses the primary and they come on board with whatever democrat is the nominee, but until then, I’m suspect they actually will.
I’m done with Sanders. His entire progressive message is lost with his campaigns’ foul tactics.
I’ll vote for him if I have to, but only because he’s not trump.
MomSense
If she could refrain from attacking Dems, maybe. Right now I think she is part of the problem. She has potential. Certainly she has charisma and intelligence, but so have a lot of other people who ended up being destructive.
The Dangerman
High School HAD to suck for him (I can say this as my last name is very close to a popular pejorative, too; been there, done that).
ETA: Well, popular at one time, anyway. Right about HS age, IIRC
ETA2: If BS creates the conditions that we have another 4 years of Trump, AOC could cure cancer while developing cold fusion on the side, she’d still be dead to me.
Baud
@ruemara:
I said “most.”
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus:
Right. The issue with Bernie has never been his policies. If it were, Warren wouldn’t be so popular here.
Villago Delenda Est
@Betty Cracker: I recall reading that The Villages is a hotbed of STDs.
TaMara (HFG)
@ruemara: come sit by me
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est: ::shutters::
Betty Cracker
Charlie Pierce weighed in on the latest 2016 AGAIN dust-up involving Tlaib, Omar, etc.:
Sounds about right to me. (Note: he’s not telling Clinton to shut up; he’s saying the Sanders people have to for everyone’s sake.)
Immanentize
@Villago Delenda Est: @Omnes Omnibus:
Love hides where you least expect it
Baud
@Betty Cracker:
I think “inability” should be “unwillingness” but otherwise I agree.
Private citizen Hillary can say what she wants. Sanders needs to decide if he’s more like us or more like Trump.
sdhays
@Villago Delenda Est: They should rename it “Trump’s Vietnam”.
PJ
@Villago Delenda Est: There was an article some years back about how the Villages was filled with swingers (which makes sense, in that swingers seem to be mostly right-wing.)
@Omnes Omnibus: Shutters so you don’t have to see it, shudders when you do.
Immanentize
@Baud: I actually worry that all this Hillary hate, mostly from Sanders, is taking a tireless and very powerful surrogate for the 2020 election off the board. Not unlike how Bill was sidelined in 2000. It only benefits Sanders and Trump to relitigate the Hillary hatred.
Baud
@Immanentize:
She’ll be sidelined if he’s the nominee. The haters are his base.
West of the Rockies
I like AOC. Not feeling it for Tlaib, who led a crowd in booing Hillary in praise of Saint Bernard and then sorry-not sorried afterwards.
Betty Cracker
@PJ: Rumor has it there’s a huge swinger scene there, and there are shoe color codes to signal availability. I wish I didn’t know this, but one hears things. It would be hilarious if none of this is true and the residents are just having the townies on. I suppose that is possible!
CaseyL
I think about how Hillary’s first real job in politics was being part of the legal team that impeached Nixon, her successful advocacy for children’s legal rights and literacy as Arkansas First Lady, and how one of her first major legislative victories as Senator was salvaging the ruins of her national health plan to give us CHIP… how, in other words, she had a solid list of progressive accomplishments – actual accomplishments, programs and policies, not lectures and speeches – starting before the women booing her were even born.
Boo Hillary? In allegiance with a cult of personality as bad as the one around Trump?
Fuck that, and fuck them.
Immanentize
@Baud: But can he effectively sideline her if he is NOT the candidate. And yes, when Tlaib complains about the haters, while hating, well, not a good look from my perspective.
Jager
@Betty Cracker:
My retired EMT pal lives in Port St Lucie, his old boss from the FD lives in The Villages. The guy’s wife died a few years ago and he now has a harem of, as he says “old dolls”.
dr. bloor
@Betty Cracker: In his tweet linking to the piece, he said Hillary Clinton cannot stop taking her resentment out for a walk and Bernie needs to stop taking the bait, which is an ill-advised way to put it, to say the least.
Omnes Omnibus
@PJ: You are not aware of all internet traditions.
Baud
@Immanentize:
Any other likely candidate uses Hillary IMHO.
Baud
@dr. bloor:
Then I take back by agreement.
Immanentize
@Jager: This “lots of sex in the Villages” is frankly the first positive thing I’ve heard about the place.
Starfish
@ruemara: Can you explain what you mean by “the choice of gentrification?” I don’t quite understand.
I like the way that she is prioritizing environmental issues.
sdhays
@Immanentize: How much do surrogates matter, really? I think they used to, maybe 50 years ago, when the media environment was different, but I just don’t see it now. How many people are swayed by “I trust X so I’m going to vote the way they tell me to?” Mostly, they seem useful for getting supporters charged up to do the grunt work, which is important, but the Democratic nominee will still have plenty of good surrogates backing them.
Immanentize
@Baud: They really must.
Martin
I’m not a fan of Bernie, but I am a huge fan of AOC. At the very least, her policy ideas are better fleshed out. But more importantly, she is a genuine voice of her generation, who will be paying for these policies for the next half century. Bernie will be dead and buried before half of his ideas come to fruition.
I don’t think AOC necessarily reflects the center of the future Democratic party, but I do think she’s an honest voice on the left side who works hard, supports the party, speaks her mind, and is an honest broker. And boy, you could do a whole lot worse than that in politics.
Immanentize
@sdhays: It’s not surrogacy, it’s networks, and fundraising, and people who truly admire Hillary and can be excited by her leadership. Sanders will not have access to that.
Baud
@Immanentize:
It would be malpractice not to use the anger of base Democrats.
sdhays
@Immanentize: I’m dooming us all by saying this, but Bernie will not be the Democratic nominee.
Nicole
@Betty Cracker:
Ehhhh… about that…
https://twitter.com/CharlesPPierce/status/1223608082682601473
Betty Cracker
@dr. bloor: Well, I wouldn’t have put it exactly that way, but he’s not altogether wrong, IMO. Clinton has repeatedly lambasted Sanders, who is currently one of the front-runners for the party’s nomination. I fully understand and share her resentment over his behavior in 2016 and believe she has every right to express it now. I also think the fantods over Sanders’ surrogates’ responses to Clinton’s broadsides are a bit rich, given the provocation, but Pierce is correct to note that it is politically dumb of the Sanders people to take the bait.
mrmoshpotato
It’s great to see she’s busy working on the issues that matter to her Iowa constituents. I’d be furious if I lived in New York’s 14th district.
WaterGirl
@BGinCHI: Ha!
I didn’t exactly request it, but I did make a reference to MM and AOC in the previous thread, all in fun, with a smiley face and everything, so I’d say this bit of turnabout was totally in bounds.
Well played, mistermix.
Baud
@mrmoshpotato:
How much is she on the road? A lot of surrogates travel for campaigns.
WaterGirl
@Baud: That’s me. I really like AOC. I think she’s smart as a whip, her questioning in hearings is outstanding, and she’s great on social media.
I also think she’s a little green, because, well, she is new at this, and it seems she was thrown into the spotlight within about 45 minutes of being elected.
The one thing I don’t like, at times, is the company she keeps. But I do love that she’s a breath of fresh air.
Probably Not an Asshole mistermix
This is pretty much what I think of the whole “boo gate” kerfuffle.
dr. bloor
@Betty Cracker: I guess my problem with the criticism of HRC is that she can either offer honest answers to questions (and there was absolutely nothing in that interview that wasn’t (a) true and (b) common knowledge), or she can shut up. If she declines to “shut up,” she’s “taking her resentment for a walk.”
Baud
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix:
The only solution is to not vote for Hillary or Bernie in the primary.
sdhays
@mrmoshpotato: I’m neither an AOC super fan nor someone who thinks she’s the worst member of the Democratic House Caucus, but I don’t think this is fair. She seems to be doing her work in the House (the clips I’ve seen of her at hearings show someone more focused and prepared than lots of her colleagues), and her national profile potentially makes her more influential in the House beyond her seniority (it all depends on how she wields that profile, and I think the reviews are mixed at this point).
Now, if reports that her constituent services leave a lot to be desired are accurate, that’s something I’d be pissed about if I were her constituent.
WaterGirl
@TaMara (HFG):
I missed those. What did she say?
WaterGirl
@Baud: I was going to say “lack of interest in” reining them in.
bemused
@Villago Delenda Est:
I’ve read that too a few years ago. Hopefully the olds have gotten the message by now that they have to protect against STDs. Seriously, how did so many not know this before?
Jinchi
She reminds me a bit of Greta Thunberg in that neither of them is “supposed” to have a voice in the national conversation. AOC is mocked for being a waitress and a bartender, Greta for being a child with Aspberger’s. Why should the concerns of such people matter? Conservatives, enraged that they are forced to respond at all, try to humiliate them into silence. Both women have tremendous skill in turning their troll’s mockery into badges of honor. Warren, likewise, persists.
Immanentize
@sdhays: I agree. But it is another strong reason to not support him.
BRyan
I’ve been on the broken-glass/anybody-just-to-get-rid-of-trump-even-if-it’s-bernie (FTR, my donations have gone to warren and harris), but as bernie holds steady or climbs in the polls, I find myself leaning toward no vote if he’s the nominee. I see no indication he’d be a good leader (and many that he wouldn’t), and given the job we’ll be facing to dig out from the trump/republican mess, I have no reason to think he’d be the candidate who can or will do it. How will replacing trump with an ineffectual blowhard from (sort of) our side accomplish anything toward meeting the desperate needs of what’s left of our country?
Ruckus
@Villago Delenda Est:
Extremely good synopsis.
IOW I agree completely. He’s a salesman who has memorized the company line very well but doesn’t understand the complex product past the brochure.
Anya
I love AOC. She’s smart, authentic and she’s fearless. What’s not to love. I don’t know what she sees in Sanders though. I wish she went to Ayanna Pressley and chose Warren. By the way, why doesn’t queen Ayanna get the same attention and adoration as AOC?
I really don’t get anyone associating Bernie with “magnetism”. His angry grandpa persona is off putting to me.
Immanentize
@mrmoshpotato: I think she has been a great presence and is working hard for her constituents. In fact, I know people in her district who are pleasantly surprised at AOC’S level of services considering she is a first termer.
WaterGirl
@sdhays:
If her constituent services really are as bad as they say, she may not be reelected. From this distance, it’s impossible to know whether that reputation is deserved, or mostly spin.
WaterGirl
@Immanentize: My comment at #74 was written before seeing your comment at #73.
Immanentize
@bemused: The people in the Villages did not believe that their type of people would ever be exposed to an STD in the first place.
dr. bloor
@BRyan: Supreme Court. It might be the only reason, but it is sufficient to pull the lever for Any Dem.
Probably Not an Asshole mistermix
@BRyan: I love it. Towards the end of the comments, buried the lede, semi-reasonable sounding. A+ trolling. Chef’s kiss to you.
Mandalay
@Betty Cracker:
An odd way to put it, since nobody is claiming that she doesn’t have the right to do it. The issue is whether it is helpful for the Democratic Party for her to be doing it now, during the campaigning. If Sanders gets the nomination, the Republicans are going to be using clips of what Clinton says about Sanders in their ads, with a scary voice-over saying “Even Clinton hates his guts…“.
There are folks here who insist that Biden should be above criticism on BJ because he is (was?) ahead in the polls, yet Clinton gets a free pass to attack Sanders? If you want Sanders to lose no matter what then that makes sense, but if you want Trump to lose then I don’t see how Clinton’s comments are anything but harmful.
Betty Cracker
@BRyan: Not a Sanders fan, but he wouldn’t replace RBG with a 35-year-old right wing zealot, nor would he cage children at the border. Therefore, I will not go Sarandon if he’s the nominee, and you shouldn’t either.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Anya:
I don’t get it either, but it’s clearly there. People who think presidents are dictators (only works for Republicans /bitter snark) think Bernie will pass his policies by shoutin
ETA: and AOC at least encouraged the “Sunrise” group to protest Nancy Pelosi, which suggests the kind of idiotic “Democrats are the real enemy” stupidity that I can’t get past, however skilled and laudable her committee work has been. I don’t think she gets how right Pelosi was about her district vs the ones that actually created the Dem majority
Immanentize
@WaterGirl: That’s how this place works, mostly. I hope the screen grab helped
Jinchi
Trump is pure evil. Hell, I’ll vote for Tulsi is she’s the nominee.
Anya
@WaterGirl: I totally agree with you. I don’t like the company she keeps or her hangerons but she’s the real deal and my generation is lucky to have her.
Immanentize
@Mandalay:
I don’t read every comment but I have never ever not even once even in half a comment read anyone making this argument. Never. Not.
Omnes Omnibus
So much wrong in one sentence. That’s hard to do.
Immanentize
@Jinchi: me too, but luckily a choice I will not need to make.
bemused
@Immanentize:
Sigh, I wouldn’t doubt many do/did think that.
TaMara (HFG)
@WaterGirl: I’ll see if I can find the tweets. It was an entire day of her attacking him and then defending the attacks. I haven’t seen any since, so maybe someone smart told her to knock it off. But it was ugly.
Immanentize
@bemused: As someone here said a few days ago, I have met Biden supporters for sure, but I have never met a Bidenbro.
Jinchi
During the primary he’s fair game. She’s hoping to convince the Bernie curious to reconsider Biden or Warren. If he becomes the nominee and she’s still going after him, then it becomes a problem.
Ruckus
@Mayur:
We are not republicans. We are democrats.
We represent a wide range of views and we don’t and shouldn’t try to speak only with one voice. There is more than one way and we should be open to listening to all the voices on our side. We might actually learn something. Republicans do not want to learn anything, they want a rigid, fixed concept of top down leadership and that is not a democracy. To see that look at the extreme – and shitty example of it in operation right now.
We are a coalition of differing views and concepts of how to get to be a better democracy, that is a government of, by and for the people, all of the people, not just the extremely wealthy.
That doesn’t mean we fight each other and disregard the viewpoints of others. As VDE stated above some of BS’s ideas are good concepts, but to be anything past a concept one has to develop directions and ways to get there, to explain those ideas and ideals so that people will accept them, because acceptance is what a democracy demands and reasonable explanation is how you get there.
Immanentize
@Jinchi: agree
BRyan
@Betty Cracker: useful point, thank you
Brachiator
@Villago Delenda Est:
Same here. Sanders seemed to have cultivated hopes and dreams for 25 years, but had no concrete proposals on how they could be achieved.
He keeps hinting that he would govern through executive orders and grassroots protests that would magically transform the country.
Immanentize
@Ruckus: agree agree
Eljai
@TaMara (HFG): Was it this article about the Democratic Party being “too big of a tent”?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@TaMara (HFG): I can’t remember if it was on twitter or a campaign appearance, but she went through a litany of Biden critiques that were true, if unhelpful– the Iraq War, the bankruptcy bill, etc– then finish with some idiocy about how he wants a Republican running mate. She’s smart and talented, but extremely blinkered and immature.
Immanentize
@Brachiator:
Not kidding, but IIRC, that was Ross Perot’s pitch as well
Another Scott
Just got my B-J Calendar. Very nice. Thanks to those responsible. :-)
Cheers,
Scott.
Anya
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I know. My cousin is a Bernie Bro. My dad and I were making fun of Bernie’s answer to a Chris Matthews shouty question about how will he deal with Mitch McConnell when he inevitably refuses to enact his agenda. And my cousin lost his sh*t and told us that the difference between Obama and Bernie is Obama was a corporate tool and wasn’t really committed to fighting income inequality but Bernie has convictions and he’ll harness the passion of his movement to enact those changes. He never explained how that passion will turn into votes in the senate.
This is Bernie’s answer by the way.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Eljai:
This is what I’m talking about, she really has no idea what the party looks like outside of a Bernie rally
WaterGirl
@Eljai: That wasn’t helpful! (The article, not you!) Not helpful to Dems, just to be clear.
Betty Cracker
@Mandalay: Okay, I phrased it poorly when I invoked “rights.” Let me try again: Clinton is a private citizen. She’s making a choice to shit all over Sanders lately, and I can understand why she’d feel that way on a personal level.
I don’t know what her aims are, if any. She’s an influential Democrat — maybe she’s trying to sway the race against Sanders? Maybe she’s trying to publicize her documentary? Maybe she’s just venting?
I don’t find it surprising or outrageous that Sanders’ surrogates are responding negatively, but it is politically dumb. They have something to lose. She doesn’t.
As for the notion that Biden is above criticism, I don’t share it.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Ok, yeah, that’s dumb.
evodevo
@Immanentize: Yes. This. they just cannot believe that Jane/Joe Doaks, staunch Teabagger and committed Xtian, would be carrying that stuff and blithely passing it around….
Immanentize
@Eljai: Wow, that was certainly the very mildest of attacks on Biden. Candidates have certainly been more direct in the debates. I’m actually impressed by her thoughtfulness on the intra-party dynamics.
Omnes Omnibus
@Immanentize: Our system may have many undemocratic flaws, but it does have a series of procedures by which one can get results. A politician with any interest in actually accomplishing anything would have some idea what those procedures are and how to use them.
Brachiator
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Totally agree.
Ruckus
@Betty Cracker:
And Charlie expects a 78 yr old socialist with a big mouth to change now? As someone not all that far behind BS in age I’d say that’s asking a lot. He’s a shouty old man who has now, 2 major high points in his life, running for president. He isn’t going to stop being himself now and he isn’t going to stop his supporters from being in his image.
mvr
Well, if nothing else it will not continue to get worse insofar as we’ll stop repealing environmental regulations, imprisoning children and refugees (at least at these rates), get back in the climate treaty game, and stop appointing right-wing judges.
Not to mention that Trump unimpeached and reelected will be even worse than he is now.
@BRyan:
Immanentize
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: But there really is a tea party fringe of the far right of the Democratic party. Pennsylvania’s Lipinski is one example.
PJ
@Betty Cracker: I knew I shouldn’t do it, but I just googled the Villages, and this is one of the first things that came up:
https://www.villages-news.com/2019/10/05/villages-101-villages-couple-served-jail-time-for-sexual-romp-on-electric-box/
There is also a law firm which looks like it is dedicated to criminal work in the Villages (I didn’t know the “town” was that big): https://www.thevillageslaw.com/blog/couple-accused-of-having-sex-in-the-villages/
I also didn’t know that “golf cart DUI” was a thing before. Oh, Florida!
Anya
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: That’s really dumb thing to say. I am not sure she understands the tea party either.
L85NJGT
This here is the real deal issue that will get a rep gone fast regardless of ideology, partisan lean or how well they play on national media.
LC
My assumption is that Ayanna wasn’t made an example of “the Revolution”. The Our Revolution types had been desperate for a win and she won her primary at the right time to have a ready made story of one of their outsiders unseating a corrupt insider. (The more complex truth doesn’t matter, they needed the narrative.)
That punched AOC into the spotlight nationally, and then the Right also jumped on it because “young attractive non-white woman who we can rage at” was too damn tempting, especially when it also lets them rage against the “radical socialist takeover” and push “dems in disarray”.
So with both the Very Online Left folks touting her as the new face of the party as well as the Right Wing Noise Machine — suddenly she had a lot more spotlight than anyone normally would.
I think she has mostly used that spotlight well and seems to take her job seriously. I like AOC. But Ayanna is my rep and I think overall more aligned with my preferences.
Immanentize
@Omnes Omnibus: totes. Our system was built to be slow and avoid passionate mobocracy. Trump and Sanders do not like anything that inhibits mobocracy.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I overestimated the accuracy and honesty of her Biden criticism.
I actually dislike her more now than I did when I started reading this thread.
zhena gogolia
I’d love to see a front-page post lionizing Adam Schiff, who has done more for this country in the last few months, and particularly the last few days, than any human I’ve ever seen.
ETA: He represents keen intelligence, broad and deep knowledge, and unerring moral insight and courage. Take him for all in all, we shall not look upon his like again.
Brachiator
@Immanentize:
I appreciated how Perot could explain some of the issues clearly and simply. Liked his use of charts. But not much else about him.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
That is over the top. I’m glad I’m not on Twitter.
ETA: The only thing missing is a “Believe me.”
@zhena gogolia:
Truth.
L85NJGT
@Immanentize:
He may as well go for the trifecta with a flat tax.
Immanentize
@LC: I agree. She has made sober moves and has acted locally in very positive ways. I knew Capuano and I genuinely liked him. But I supported Pressley and I still do.
(but I just do not get the Kennedy run against Markey).
Immanentize
@LC:
“Tempting” seems like the right word. There is something so horrifically sexualized (and often violently so) about the right’s obsession with AOC.
BRyan
@mvr: useful, valid points. I guess one of my concerns is that people have short memories — when all the crap trump has pulled, the collapse of rule of law, the inevitable consequences of the horrid policies re business practices, environmental destruction, immigration, taxes, the deficit, the destruction of relationships with erstwhile international allies, the rise and tacit acceptance of domestic hate groups — when all that and more hits a tipping point, and there’ll we’ll be holding the bag again, I’m disheartened that the best we can offer, apparently, is not very good. But yes, Supreme Court, as a couple commenters have pointed out. Good enough, I guess.
Ruckus
@sdhays:
Do his surrogates get you charged up in a positive way? They don’t me, demanding alliance and obedience. I don’t have to like everything about a candidate to endorse them, to work to get them elected, I just have to agree with their concepts and background enough that I agree that they will be likely to work for me reasonably and well. It’s like hiring an employee. Hell it is hiring an employee. I’ve done this a lot as a business owner and one thing you learn is that you are never hiring the whole package, you are hiring skills – abilities, consistency and well, that’s it.
delk
@Immanentize: There’s another Lipinsky? The one here in Illinois is bad enough. ?
Immanentize
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: that is horrible, I agree. Linky please?
Another Scott
@Immanentize: +1
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with Hillary having opinions and stating them. If St. Bernard and his people can’t get over that, and insist that any Democratic criticism is evidence of Corruption™, then they’re showing me (even more) that they have no interest in winning the election.
tl;dr – St. Bernard is running the same 2016 campaign all over again. He needs to lose even worse this time.
Grr….
Cheers,
Scott.
Eljai
@WaterGirl: I generally like AOC, but she said “In our current primary field, some people treat healthcare as a right, and others don’t.” From what I have seen, all of the serious candidates have expressed support for a public option, a modified M4A or other path to universal coverage. I don’t think it’s fair to paint them as not treating healthcare as a right just because they don’t support your plan.
BRyan
@zhena gogolia: YES!!
Immanentize
@L85NJGT: snerk
AxelFoley
@A Ghost To Most:
This. Fuck AOC and every other Berniebro.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Immanentize: @delk: and if AOC were campaigning against Lipinski… actually that might help Lipinski
Felanius Kootea
@BRyan: Bernie won’t enact travel bans or pack the courts with right wing unqualified judges or appoint coal lobbyists to oversee the EPA. I don’t like him either but focus on the bigger picture people.
Betty Cracker
@Immanentize: I’ve been assuming Kennedy is just tired of waiting for “his turn.” They can’t have many policy quibbles between them!
Kay
I wondered if he would release a tax increase. I read his site -it’s the sort of technocratic centrist stuff I hate- blah, blah, incentives, ‘opportunity’ agenda, public-private partnerships- things that are losers for Democrats because no one knows what it means- but a tax increase was missing :)
Centrists should simplify. Their programs are too hard to use. They load them up with so many conditions and hurdles and qualifications. They’re over-drafted. There’s an ungenerous stinginess about the policy- like they’re terrified someone will get something without filling out 15 forms.
PJ
@Betty Cracker: I think she thinks Bernie would be a terrible President, and she wants people to know it before they vote in the primaries.
As for me, I think one of the points of primaries is that candidates do get attacked, which allows you to see what their weaknesses are, whether it’s in terms of policy, character, or history, and you also get to see how they respond to these attacks. And surely any attack they get now will be mild compared to whatever the Republicans throw out in the general. Bernie hasn’t come under much attack prior to this past month because none of the other candidates thought he had much chance of winning, but it’s better for Democrats to see the good and the bad sooner rather than later.
I think the response of Bernie’s surrogates is also instructive, because that tells you a lot about who he is and how he will get things done if he is the nominee, and if he is elected. He elevates people who defend and support him personally but who are also against Democrats generally. (And why not? He only pretends to be a Democrat when he’s running for President.)
I don’t think his supporters, or Bernie, are going to be good for getting other Democrats elected or for promoting Democratic policies. And I say this as someone who mostly agrees with Bernie’s policies, and who, for this reason, supported him in the 2016 primary.
Immanentize
@delk: Oh brother, so sorry. But maybe I could move him for you?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Immanentize: here, and here:
She’s not wrong, and in one of those hypothetical countries with lots of different parties that form coalitions, I would probably be in a party somewhere between Biden’s and AOC’s, and those three parties would probably be in a coalition against the nativist-neo-fascists. But we’re not in that country. And the groan… that NY Mag story is I think the one that maintains that she has “changed Washington”, which she clearly believes. I don’t see it.
Immanentize
@Betty Cracker:
My hope is that he is making the move in the event Warren wins. He would then be the clear and obvious frontrunner. It has not been an acrimonious campaign on either side so far.
delk
@Immanentize: my mother lived in his district.
Kay
If I were a centrist I would offer simple and universal programs that are just smaller instead of loading everything up with 27 hoops to jump through. People don’t want to navigate a complex maze to buy health insurance. That’s a reasonable request. They shouldn’t have to.
Another Scott
@dr. bloor: Charlie is great in so many ways, but he’s an old crank in a few others. It’s painful to see him let the old crank side take over when Donnie and his minions are doing so much damage.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
sdhays
@Ruckus: What would you expect from a candidate who is “not a people person”? I mean, how far up your own ass do you have to be to get involved in a business that is 99% about working with people?
Immanentize
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: so I read her feed to find the tweet. She puts up receipts — yes to the Iraq war vote, yes he said he’d consider a republican for a running mate. Has Bernie said he wouldn’t?
But her ‘receipt’ on the Social Security cuts thing is the intercept. Very weak tea (party)
FlipYrWhig
I think Ocasio Cortez is tremendously overrated, like Alan Grayson and Anthony Weiner before her, who were also lionized for Taking The Fight. She strikes me as a decent tweeter who fell for her own hype and now lectures everyone like we’re stupid. I think she’s going to flame out like J.C. Watts.
mrmoshpotato
@L85NJGT: 9 9 9 and do your taxes on a postcard.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@dr. bloor: @Another Scott: as a Hillary Clinton fan (and sometime critic) who hates Bernie Sanders’ guts and liver, and a Charlie Pierce fan who thinks that, like our own MM, his worldview is marred by an inability to let go of the tie-dye, I can’t really argue with what Pierce says about HRC there
Brachiator
@Felanius Kootea:
Good point. Unfortunately, Sanders will not be able to govern, and this is a feature, not a bug.
I do not understand why neither the other candidates, nor the reporters, ask this basic question.
“Bernie. You are not a Democrat. Why are you running for the Democratic Party nomination? You want the voters, but you are against the party itself. If you became president, would you lead the Democratic Party or abolish it?”
Betty Cracker
@PJ: I mostly agree but would make a distinction between surrogates like Cornel West and Susan Sarandon (anti-Dems) and supporters like Reps Omar, Tlaib and Jayapal (the three involved in Boogate), who are definitely Democrats. Maybe it’s good that this is blowing up now, and maybe that was Clinton’s intent. It seems this schism will never go away, so people who will be voting soon need to take that into account.
dr. bloor
@FlipYrWhig: I’m reserving judgment, but she’s consistently one of the best prepared members during committee hearings. There’s some substance there.
matt
If you think about the Sanders endorsement as a calculated long term move it seems really smart. These are a bunch of purity ponies who are going to need to believe in some kind of magical authenticity/indie cred bullshit to vote for someone. Good way to work around that problem.
Kay
@sdhays:
I think it’s an issue too, for Bernie. That he might be a jerk.
I read Trump Twitter- his fans on Twitter- and there’s this funny theme to it. They make him out to be a nice person. We all say “oh, they love being assholes and that’s the draw” but that isn’t what they do. Instead they invent this courageous, humble, kind Donald Trump.
They deny that he’s a mean-spirited asshole. That’s how they continue to support him.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Immanentize: no way around the Iraq War, and when asked a dumb question, Biden gave a sort of non-answer of the kind a lot of Dem and Dem-leaning voters actually like (Herself really needs to get out more), he actually said he wouldn’t rule out a Republican running mate, he just couldn’t think of a living example.
As for His Blessedness and Social Security:
ZMOG BERNIE IS A REAGANITE! ! ! ! ! ! /by the standards of Berniestan
Jinchi
This is what drove me crazy about Pete Buttigieg’s college plan. Stipulating that it’s free for any family earning less than a, somewhat arbitrary, $100,000 a year, because he doesn’t want millionaires like Trump to benefit.
A family of two pubic school teachers with a couple of college age kids can easily earn an income of around $100 K. That does not make them rich, certainly doesn’t make them millionaires and it doesn’t put them anywhere near the level of Trump. It’s cheaper to let Baron attend a public university tuition free than to pay for the bureaucracy required to implement that plan.
Kay
@sdhays:
The professional Right wingers, the celebrities, are the people who cheer Trump’s nastiness and “owning the libs”.
His ordinary supporters on Twitter instead invent a completely different person. A nice person. They invent whole dialogues he supposedly said – in the motorcade Trump sees “firefighters saluting him”. Trump says, in this fantasy, “they shouldn’t be saluting me, I should be saluting them- stop the car so I may offer thanks”. There’s a lot of “sirs” in there – the obligatory sirs- but that’s the dialogue. They invent it.
the Conster
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Thank you. Exactly. Don’t forget going WAY out of her lane around the country to help the misogynistic old fraud primary Dem women Sharice Davids and Gretchen Whitmer in favor of the white dudes running against them, then picking a fight with Tammy Duckworth about how to *win* the day after her victory in a special election of 17,000 votes cast in a deep blue district. Fuck that bullshit.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@FlipYrWhig: when I started reading this thread I was torn between seeing her as the sharp and focused questioner she has sometimes been, and the extremely naive and sometimes dishonest tweeter. Reviewing some of the things she’s actually said in the last few months, I’m pretty much where you are.
Another Scott
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: One of the many troubles with politician’s Twitter is that you don’t know who’s writing it – the politician or the staff. E.g. there was stuff appearing on Warren’s ewarren account during the trial.
Yeah, the person with the name on the account is ultimately responsible. But…
Twitter doesn’t do nuance. It’s great for building outrage – Twitter is going to start the next war…
AOC is still very green and she needs to understand that, or she’s going to burn out like Grayson did…
Cheers,
Scott.
the Conster
@FlipYrWhig:
She’s performative. I don’t believe anything about her, even her bio is highly suspect. She’s a ratfucker.
Eljai
Ayanna Pressley campaigning for Elizabeth Warren in SC:
Emphasis mine. I love it! I really wish more people would understand that one person will not save us. We all have to show up. And we have to take the Senate, the House and the Presidency and turn out for mid-terms if we have any chance of turning this country around.
Kay
@Jinchi:
That was really bad. People rightly said it was an argument against every single universal program. It is.
That argument can be used to oppose all universal public programs. Rich people might use them.
Rich people do, in fact, use them. I was on a public library board for what seemed like an eternity. The biggest users were higher income. A shit load of lower income people also use the library, but the highest rates were higher income. Should we shut it down on the grounds of “equity”? No, because that’s insane.
TaMara (HFG)
@Eljai: Oh, man, I didn’t see that. Maybe the tweets were related to that. Not a good look.
Xavier
@sdhays: According to AOC herself, she can be more prepared because she refuses to spend all her time fundraising.
Jinchi
Let’s remember that, despite their disagreements with Pelosi, AOC and the other members of the squad resisted the attempt to oust her as Democratic leader and prevent her from becoming Speaker. That was led by “centrist” candidates.
the Conster
@Eljai:
Big enough for the Rogan bros of the world, but not for those of us who think the public option is a good first step towards getting the ACA to fulfill it’s UHC objective.
dr. bloor
@the Conster: playing the long con by working for Ted Kennedy was sheer genius.
TaMara (HFG)
In case you weren’t sure we were living in an episode of the Twilight Zone:
Eolirin
@Immanentize: His yes vote on AUMF is hardly the same as him helping to sell the war on Iraq, and if you look at the full context of his comments on his openness to a republican vp, it’s pretty clear that that was an attack on the way the republicans have become radicalized, and not actually saying he’d be willing to pick any current republican for that seat.
AOC engages on the same nonsense that everyone in Twitter does though. Never reading the sources, repeating bullshit as if its fact, because everyone else is saying the same thing in your little bubble, so it doesn’t need to be critically analyzed, and engaging in hyperbole, because that’s what gets views and likes. It’s toxic for everyone.
Jinchi
I hear there’s a big election for president coming up in Russia soon. Can anyone convince Trump to run for that instead? The perks are much better, you can assassinate your critics, arrest your competition and raid the Treasury without any pesky impeachment trials.
Kay
@Jinchi:
Ohio has “free college” in high school. High school students can get dual high school and college credit and the public school pays for it, partly because it’s an exchange, right? They would be paying for your junior year english course. They’re still paying for it, but now it’s a college credit course too.
WILDLY popular. Will save lower income students hundreds of millions in college costs and also save what may be more important to them- TIME. They get a head start. Which they will need.
Does is also benefit higher income students? Yes, it does. But here’s the thing- when it comes up for renewal everyone will support it, because everyone can benefit from it. Since voting rates go up along income lines, you’ll have the voters you need to protect the program for poorer people.
Universal is the way to go, IMO.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Jinchi: Okay.
The Sunrisers decision to protest Pelosi was still really fucking stupid. And AOC’s encouragement of that fucking stupidity was also really fucking stupid.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@TaMara (HFG): hmmm…. has anyone ever seen Steven Segal and Seb Gorka in the same room?
FlipYrWhig
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
The thing I liked about her victory was the larger symbolism of it, at least as I saw it: something like “we can elect people who look like us instead of counting on well-intentioned white men to speak on our behalf.” That’s encouraging and timely. But from the moment it happened, from the candidate herself on down, the significance rapidly pivoted to Sandersite shit about Throwing Out The Neolibs And Energizing The Left, which I don’t think has much at all to do with what led to her election, or to any elections in the imminent future. And that’s how she still talks about politics, which IMHO goes beyond naive to self-congratulatory verging on delusional. She has strong blogger/tweeter skills but I’m skeptical she has staying power in politics.
the Conster
@dr. bloor:
She did an internship when she was like 12. Now she’s working for Cenk Uygur’s Republican funded ratfucking Justice Dems to make sure everything Ted Kennedy stood for is killed by the Roberts Court. That’s quite the plan.
FlipYrWhig
@dr. bloor: OK but even in this very thread the “political staffer” part of the backstory gets suppressed in favor of the “waitress and bartender” story. And “worked for a Kennedy” ain’t exactly burning down The Establishment either, if it were part of anyone else’s political origins. I’m sort of allergic to hype by nature, so YMMV.
Mandalay
Obviously not, so here’s an example:
Yet it’s OK for Clinton, and plenty of folks here, to attack Sanders?
To be clear, I’m strongly in favor of reasoned criticism against Sanders and every other candidate – that can only help in picking the right candidate to fight Trump – but ad hominem attacks on any of the candidates are not helpful. And nor is special pleading for Biden.
It’s unlikely but possible that Sanders will be running against Trump.
the Conster
@Mandalay:
OFFS. Independent Sanders isn’t a Democrat, and he’s the one who should have taken his ass kicking and stayed home. He’s fair game. Biden got in to stop him, and I’m glad he did. He clearly has no interest in fixing himself with the Clinton voters who rejected him, doesn’t want our votes, clearly doesn’t work for them, doesn’t think he needs them, and won’t be getting them. He’s on his own.
oatler.
@PJ: It’s true! I saw it myself!*
*in a “Bob’s Burgers” episode
Brachiator
@Jinchi:
You just limit any credit. It’s not that big a deal.
Immanentize
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Most rooms do not have enough space for their combined bulk.
dr. bloor
@FlipYrWhig:
I don’t particularly disagree (see my comment at #11), but I do think she has more to offer than a run-of-the-mill bomb thrower.
Edit: And frankly, working for Ted Kennedy was the epitome of working for the Establishment. The Establishment was more progressive then, but Ted could cut a deal with anyone if it meant getting half a loaf when the alternative was none.
Eolirin
@Mandalay: It’s not an ad hominem attack to point out that someone has a character problem when that person’s character is part of their qualifications for being president. It’s really hard to make an ad hominem attack if you’re talking about their fitness to be the nominee even.
And nothing said on this blog will effect the outcome of any election. That applies to every candidate. So anyone making that statement about any candidate isn’t saying anything useful.
If people want to make a personal plea for less negativity, because it’s exhausting, I can get behind that though.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yes, but I DO NOT want to talk about it.
janesays
Supporting a candidate that you don’t support is “dividing the party”? Good Lord.
Look, I’m all for criticizing Rashida Tlaib’s idiotic booing of Hillary, because it was childish and extremely divisive, but as far as I can tell, AOC’s only “sin” is supporting somebody you don’t like.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mandalay: Maybe the word “bash” comes into play.
the Conster
So of course the ratfucker in chief Michael Moore – he of the June 9, 2016 meeting with Assange – supports booing Hillary Clinton.
THESE FUCKERS ARE TOXIC AF.
Immanentize
@FlipYrWhig: The question is where can AOC go from the house? Unless she has, as my Dad used to say, some “come to Jesus meeting” of moderation, she cannot make a jump to the Senate. There would be a possible path to mayor in NYC in a bunch of years. I think she will either be a House member or will earn an administration position sometime down the road. Of course, she could be a Supreme Court Justice.
Xavier
@mrmoshpotato: We could all do our taxes on a postcard, if H+R Block and Turbotax weren’t spending millions bribing our congresspeople. (I do my own taxes. From time to time, the IRS gently explains to me how I did it wrong. And as often as not, the error is in my favor…) The IRS could just send me a postcard telling me how much I owe and why, and that I should contact them if I disagree. They have all the info I have.
dr. bloor
@Immanentize: I hear Speaker of the House is a pretty good gig. Don’t even have to switch buildings.
FlipYrWhig
@dr. bloor: I hope over the long run she contains the snark and chiding and internet thirstiness, even though she gets A LOT of positive feedback for those.
FlipYrWhig
@the Conster: That’s a peculiar use of the word “truth.”
Immanentize
@dr. bloor: So true about Ted, he understood politics is not revolution but crappy deals on a very long path. And I’ve said it before, but he was the BEST at constituent services (Markey is good too).
He was also a real retail politician as well. He would go to the T stops and stations every election and ask people for their votes. Warren is his equal in that regard. John Kerry was absolutely the fucking worst at constutuent services or retail politics. Ask me about his fire hydrant some day. Ass.
Eljai
@the Conster: I’ve had it with that gasbag. Whenever he’s on TV now, I turn the channel. I actually liked a couple of his movies in the past, but I’m no longer interested in his stupid opinions. He’s not helping.
Immanentize
@dr. bloor: She may have the fundraising star power for a leadership position. But she is not good at sliding in the knife with silence and a smile. Yet?
Omnes Omnibus
@Immanentize: She’s only 30.
the Conster
I guess where I am now, is that until the left Tea Partiers show any electoral victories outside of Berkeley, Austin, Cambridge, and Brooklyn and prove there’s a pent up demand for Democratic Socialism (WHATEVER THE FUCK THAT EVEN IS) then they should stop pretending they’re more than a bunch of loudmouthed extremely online cultists caping for an unaccomplished grifting fraud signal boosted by the Kremlin and prove they’re capable of governing, passing and implementing legislation, and not just shit talking Dems. None of them focus on Republicans.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@the Conster: think of Bernie as the nominee, then think of the idiot fucking Michael Moore emo-bleating on TeeVee as the face of the Democratic Party. Not just a gift to trump, but to McSally, Collins, Tillis and McConnell
Jinchi
Well most Congresspeople will never make the jump to Senate. The math doesn’t allow it. But are we supposed to believe that you need to be a moderate to be a Senator?
janesays
This is a near perfect encapsulation of my position on Bernie. Ideologically, I’m actually much closer to him than I am to Biden – I like most of Bernie’s ideas a lot. But Bernie’s personality is a huge problem, and the naivete of his followers about the inconvenient political reality that they’ll never get even half the Senate to support many of Bernie’s more radical ideas is a deal breaker for me. I cannot and will not vote for him in the primary. As of this moment, Warren still has my vote, but if the race is down to just Bernie and Biden by the time my state votes (mid-March, just after Super Tuesday), I’m going with Biden. I’m not really a very big fan of Uncle Joe, either (I’m pretty sure there will be no holding the Trump crime syndicate accountable if he becomes POTUS, because he’s way too obsessed with “comity”), but I think he’s a lot more pragmatic about legislative realities, and I also think he’s got a generally warm personality. Mostly, I think he’s got a better shot of beating Trump than Bernie.
In any event, the Democratic nominee (whoever that person is, even if it is Bernie) absolutely has my vote in November, no matter what.
Immanentize
@Xavier:
That was pretty much Elvis’ tax preparation policy.
WaterGirl
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Wow. Those aren’t facts; that’s bullshit. And poor judgment. I, too, think much less of her than I did before.
Jinchi
Wait, you think AOC, Rashid Tlaib, Ilhan Omar and Ayanna Pressley never attack Republicans? I know we can get lost in interparty squabbles during primary season, but that’s just wrong.
Immanentize
@Jinchi: In New York it certainly helps! Upstate is still vast with many rural voters who may not be all Trumpets but like their Senators to be moderate. Hillary understood this. Gillibrand understands that. So does Shumer.
the Conster
@Eljai:
He’s a disgusting pig like birds of a feather Rogan and Cenk. I never really gave it much thought, but now notice he’s never once acknowledged the distorting power of white supremacy as the provenance of all the ills he identifies in his movies. He’s willfully blind to his role in perpetuating that system of oppression that is his bread and butter, and rather than support the party whose base is black women, he makes sure he platforms the tokens who feed his ego and bank account.
janesays
Remember Alan Grayson? That guy was hilarious… but definitely a bitter crank.
Ruckus
@Eljai:
Not necessarily directed at you here.
We are in a primary campaign. The candidates are running against people who are supposed to be on the same side. You can’t run against them and explain yourself if you don’t point out their issues, at least somewhat. And Joe has some issues, no doubt about that. I’m not going to list any of them here, most of them are somewhere above. But he has issues from his time in congress. Mention MBNA and realize that his state was very, very favorable to banking and that they provided a lot of jobs to his constituents. In OAL terms he wasn’t doing most of us any favors but he was working for his constituents. At least some of them.
Little is completely clearcut in politics, look at this thread, the differences of opinion expressed in this one tiny space.
This is primary time, the participants have to show the differences between the various candidates that are running in the race they are in. Biden has history and not all of it is great. BS has history and none of it has substance. AOC only has the history of what she’s said in the last what 3-4 years, as well as several of the other new women that have been mentioned. Only listening to the old farts is how we got where we are today. You want new blood in the system you have to let it in. You have to take risk. You want the old system, the old way, hire the old guys. They have developed skills, whatever they may be, but they aren’t always better. I work at what I started learning 57 yrs ago. I can do things from experience that the kids can’t do. But they can work on things that I have to struggle with, that I’m not as polished at. We both have our places, they have a future, I have an end in sight. My boss does the right thing – he uses our strengths, gives experience to the younger people and waits for me to retire. I think there is a lesson for us about politics there.
Immanentize
@Omnes Omnibus: There certainly is time to learn the Bene Gesserit weirding ways.
Immanentize
@janesays: I think he had a substance abuse issue which moved him from smart crank to WTF?!
Tim Wayne
My favorite thing AOC does is telling the people at the DCCC to go fuck themselves.
mrmoshpotato
@oatler.: LOL Yes! It Snakes A Village
Also Gene’s Snake Song (sing along!) – https://youtu.be/-tvhw7jnYi0
the Conster
@Jinchi:
AOC led that bullshit Bernie front group Sunshine Movement’s sit in in Pelosi’s office the day Pelosi got the gavel back, not McConnell. Where is this bullshit *revolution* when we needed Sanders to *fight* for getting his colleagues to admit evidence to Trump’s trial? They do just enough performative *resistance* to cover for their real intention – burn down the Democratic *establishment* for their ruble funded masters.
the Conster
@Tim Wayne:
The DCCC’s job is to support incumbents, not fund their opponents.
Immanentize
@Tim Wayne: why is that so good? We owe the House majority in large part to the DCCC recruiting and spending money in red to blue districts.
Ruckus
@sdhays:
Well, I didn’t put it quite that way……
But you aren’t wrong. Working with others, especially in the context of politics, is about getting the general consensus, changing it if you can, getting as close to the ideal if you can’t. Your product is something that affects everyone, and it will never be 100% right for everyone. But you are supposed to do no harm and remove as much harm as possible. And if you can’t work with people and convince them that your way works and is better than current thinking, you are a dud.
Kay
The NYTimes political reporting is awful. They do not believe Democratic voters are legitimate. They see Democrats only as not-Republicans.
Compare to the Washington Post. The difference is the WaPo covers Democrats. As Democrats.
You wonder where the idea of Republicans and conservatives as the inevitable and natural political leaders with Democrats as kind of a complaining, pesky “interest group” who occasionally get scraps from Republicans came from, I’ll tell you where it came from- it came from this newspaper. It is their approach. The rest followed the leader.
the Conster
Everyone showing their asses. In the event that Sanders is the nominee, the only pleasure I will derive from the clubbing he will get is to watch him lose 45 states, minimum. And we will have deserved it. Splitting the angry white male supremacist racist sexist vote and turning everyone else off isn’t a strategy unless you want to give Trump the actual landslide vote he knows he didn’t get from Hillary. And I think that’s what Berners actually want, because they don’t seem to understand coalition forming.
Baud
@Xavier:
FYI: IRS Free File
J R in WV
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix:
My brother is selling out a small ranch and an in-town home in the Hillcountry of TExas to move to a “The Villages” development in Texas somewhere. RWNJ returning to his nest in his case.
I have read that The Villages has the highest Sexually Transmitted Disease level of any place in the nation… perhaps that explains the attraction some people feel for that environment?
Gelfling 545
It appears to me that unlike Sanders, AOC puts people over ideology. When people approach her she seems, like Warren, eager to listen whereas Sanders is “let’s talk about me”. She also appears to realize that some degree of compromise will be required, again unlike Sanders. And, while I admire her loyalty, I feel that her attachment to him will prove an unfortunate obstacle to her eventually.
janesays
@mrmoshpotato: Do you think it’s acceptable for ANY House member who doesn’t represent an Iowa district to campaign for their preferred candidate in Iowa?
geg6
Not sure how I feel about AOC, but her good buddy Rashida Tlaib can go fuck herself. With a rusty chainsaw, sideways. I will now give as much cash as I possibly can to any Dem who primaries her. Fuck her bullshit.
Immanentize
@J R in WV: Where is his ranch and home? Can I buy it?
Another Scott
@janesays: I was doing some errands Friday morning and had C-Span Radio on. They were playing a Biden event from Iowa on Wednesday. He’s much, much better in extended doses when he’s not pressed for time. He’s sharp, has facts and figures at hand, and has a good story to tell.
Yeah, he’s well rehearsed. Yeah he has canned applause lines. Yeah, he takes credit for stuff that Obama mostly (not exclusively) should get credit for. Yeah, he’s already worn out the – “Get Up! We’re the United States of America. We can do Anything if we work together!!” line (even though I too really do believe that). And, yeah, he stumbles a little in getting the words out a few times. But he’s not as bad as I feared from the early debates and from some of his interview excerpts.
I’m still in for SP Warren. But we could do much worse than Uncle Joe.
Cheers,
Scott.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: Good God, they are relentlessly awful.
Kay
@Jinchi:
It reaches the point of nuttiness. For years I listened to Democrats promote “public interest loan forgiveness”.
Almost no one qualified. People actually gave up – it was easier to pay the loans than to jump thru the insane number of hoops. The 500 people drafting it were so worried that someone undeserving might get 1000 dollars they made it impossible to use. I think that’s what happens- they pass drafts around and people feel like they have to add something and it’s always a “condition”, it’s never a simplification or an expansion. People don’t object to “centrists”- I think it’s probably true most Democrats are centrists- they object to this endless bullshit. Simplify. Just fucking GIVE them something. If you’re a centrist give them LESS of that something. Don’t engineer everything to death.
janesays
Ruckus
@Jinchi:
Look at it a bit broader. There are supposedly 521 billionaires in this country. If all of them had 3 kids that’s 1563 kid of various ages. Let’s say 1200 of them in college at any one time. How many of those are going to go to public colleges? A dozen maybe? Yeah it doesn’t make any sense to create an entire bureaucracy to keep out 12 or 120 kids. And even if you say anyone with a worth of over 5 million that’s still a rather small number of public college kids.
Kay is right. the programs are always a maze of bureaucracy to keep out anyone not well overly qualified to be in the program. All that bureaucracy costs money that probably costs far more than the cases of unearned benefits. Maybe the best way to combat that is to have a slightly less tilt towards the super wealthy and recognize that not everyone gets everything handed to them.
the Conster
@Gelfling 545:
She set out to primary Sharice Davids, who has outshown her in every way except for the attention grabbing. She started out going after Hakeem Jeffries – wants him primaried. In what world does that make sense? He’s our future. She’s toxic.
Lauren Underwood is a true star. I wish everyone would stop falling for the LOOK AT ME shtick AOC pulls.
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
If you’re standing inside the GOP as the “norm” and every four years you venture out to do observations of this tiny and relatively unimportant political faction called “Democrats” you end up with NYTimes political coverage. They cover us an opposition minority party. Always. Even in the majority.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Well, I’m sure John Bolton has taken all his shots and insulting him now is very very smart. Well done, Trust Fund Gilligan!
zhena gogolia
@the Conster:
Come sit by me.
Brachiator
@Xavier:
The Trump tax law tried to put the 1040 on a post card. It was a stupid idea.
Yeah, TurboTax and Block try to protect their interests. But Grover Norquist and other right wing goons strongly oppose ny simple file system. They want to keep taxes in people’s faces so that they always cry for lower taxes. Which always turns out to mean lower taxes for the rich.
Ruckus
@Jinchi:
The guy doing that in Russia now is just a bit smarter than trump. He also speaks Russian which is better than whatever it is that trump attempts to speak. So I’d give the the “leader of the unfree world” the benefit of the doubt in that race.
Ruckus
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Thankfully, I’d bet not.
Not for the reason you’re implying but just on general principle of too much shit in one place.
zhena gogolia
@the Conster:
Hakeem Jeffries was also BRILLIANT in the impeachment trial.
dnfree
@Brachiator: I have never understood why the Democratic Party even allows someone to run for President on their ticket if that person isn’t actually a Democrat. Seriously, shouldn’t that be a requirement?
janesays
JFC, are you kidding me?
We have two octagenerian liberal justices on the Supreme Court, one of whom keeps having recurring bouts of cancer and will turn 90 before the end of the next presidential term, assuming she doesn’t die before then (and sorry, not to be cold, that’s really not a safe assumption at this point).
Put aside literally everything else, and that alone is the only reason you need to do everything in your power to ensure Donald Trump doesn’t get a second term – including voting for Bernie Sanders should he be the Democratic nominee. However bad Sander might be, I feel about a bajillion times less anxious about Sanders getting to name the replacements for Breyer and Ginsburg than I do if Velveetamort gets another shot. It’s insane to not think that one if not both of those seats will become vacant in the next four years.
If Sanders is the nominee and you sit the election out, you are directly helping to overturn Roe v Wade and 50 years of civil rights legislation.
the Conster
@zhena gogolia:
Seriously. I’m so over this primary. I don’t understand why Liz is wasting everyone’s time now too. I know she’s a fave here, but instead of taking down Bernie – the one in front of her and in her same lane – she keeps saying she’s with him. What’s the point of that? She can’t take on Trump with him in front of her. Where’s the leadership from her? The potential *unity* candidate? Does she not want Hillary/Obama voters either?? WTAF.
@zhena gogolia: EXACTLY. He’s my boyfriend, you know. ;-) Like these JD dipshits can do what he and Nancy do, or even would want to.
Another Scott
@Kay: +1 This is one of Atrios’s hobbyhorses as well.
If we want a benefit to really help people, then it needs to get to people quickly and easily. ex-Mayor Pete was playing to ignorance in saying that there should be an income cutoff for helping to pay for college. Millionaires and billionaires aren’t picking schools for their kids based on the cost. People close to the cutoff will try to play games to be below the cutoff, games that take time and money. It’s wasting resources to fight a problem that exists at such a small level that it’s not worth the hassle.
If you’re worried that the rich will get too much benefit compared to everyone else, then raise the rich’s taxes a little more to make up for it. Easy, peasy.
But, no, ex-Mayor Pete and all the other Serious People demand means-testing as if it’s no big deal and won’t affect people who “truly deserve it”. They’re wrong. Means-testing has real costs and it reduces the actual benefits of the programs.
Cheers,
Scott.
Another Scott
@Ruckus: Or, what you said.
Cheers,
Scott.
the Conster
@janesays:
2016 says hello. That ship sailed.
janesays
@dnfree: To the best of my knowledge, this isn’t unique to the Democratic Party – look at the current occupant of the White House for evidence that this occurs in all American political parties. As far as I know, the only requirement to run as a Democrat (or Republican, or Libertarian, or Green) is to say, “I’m running as a Democrat (or Republican, or Libertarian, or Green)”. Maybe there should be a rule to change that, but for 2020, it’s a moot point.
Eljai
@Ruckus: On the working with others part, that really does concern me about Sanders. Our next president (I’m gonna be optimistic here) will need to repair our relationships around the globe and that requires people skills and diplomacy.
piratedan
the part that makes it harder for me to accept Sanders is that he’s not expected (or despite repeating asking) or refuses to show his work. His goals are goals that if I don’t exactly share, I think are a good goal to reach towards or build towards. The hows and whys are important. Warren breaks down not only how she believes its obtainable, but what taxes and who the taxes would be levied against in generating the revenue that would be needed. She indicates who is shouldering the effort and from what I can see, isn’t trying to magical pony her way thru, she says it will be hard work, she lays out that it will take time and that its simply not a stroke of a pen solution. I understand that. Plans take time to enact, most things that stand the test of time require an invested amount of effort to make them so.
delk
@the Conster: massive homophobe, multiple loser, and all-around total asshole Jim Oberweis has entered the republican primary for a shot at unseating Lauren Underwood.
J R in WV
@Immanentize:
Home was in Kerrville, already sold I think. Ranch was in the next county west, still on the market I think, will be way way overpriced if I had to guess. Only 200 odd acres, so really small for Tejas.
I think he got robbed when he bought it, it was intended to be game hunting ranch, really tall fence around the place, captive deer of various species. A Tiny manufactured cabin and a couple of trailers. And surrounded by RWNJ gun worshippers. I don’t even like driving thru the panhandle of TX.
the Conster
@delk:
IOW, a typical Republican. Is he any better or worse than the GOPer she beat?
Chyron HR
@janesays:
But if Bernie is the nominee, he’ll win all of Trump’s voters. That is literally his campaign pitch. Why does he need our votes?
geg6
@janesays:
Come sit next to me.
janesays
@the Conster: Uh, no, it hasn’t.
Are you honestly arguing that we’ll be no worse off if we have a 7-2 or 6-3 conservative majority than if we have a 5-4 conservative majority?
You do realize that seats open up over time, right? and if we’re beginning from a position of a 5-4 conservative majority, it will take a lot less time to be able to turn that into a liberal majority than if we’re working with a 7-2 or 6-3 majority.
Not only that, while Roberts can be counted on to vote with his wingnut colleagues 95% of the time, there have been occasions where he’s chosen to be on the right side of history, and not just on minor decisions – Obamacare ring a bell? If Trump gets to fill RBG’s seat, it won’t matter what Roberts does, because there will still be five other judges who can overrule him even if he sides with the remaining liberals.
I realize that because of 2016, we’re mostly screwed for at least the next several years in the judiciary, but Clarence Thomas isn’t a spring chicken himself. He could last another 20 years, or he could kick the bucket in 2022. We don’t know. In any event, there at least remains the possibility that we can avert the catastrophe of a far-right solid majority for the next several decades – if Trump gets a second term, then it’s over. There will be no potential swing vote to save us on any decision ever again in our lifetimes.
If you really think a 6-3 or 7-2 SCOTUS conservative majority wouldn’t be worse than a 5-4 SCOTUS conservative majority, you’re insane.
Sister Golden Bear
@Felanius Kootea: Nor would a Bernie administration steadily take away my rights and the rights of my fellow trans people.
Although given his “economic revolution will solve everything” POV, I’m not necessarily optimistic that he’d actually work on restoring my rights… But not losing even more rights is still a win.
Pouting and sitting out the election if my favored candidate isn’t the nominee is not a (extremely fucking) privileged luxury I and other minorities — including women — can afford
zhena gogolia
@the Conster:
You and I share a brain, I think.
Matt McIrvin
@BRyan: The Trump administration is a sucking chest wound to the United States, in a way that a Bernie Sanders administration would not be, nor would any of the major Democratic candidates. Just NOT continuing the open corruption and active damage done by Trump would be a huge win.
When you’re in a hole, you stop digging. Some of the Democrats might be more effective than others at climbing out. Reelecting Trump is continuing to dig.
Kay
I would have bet 500 dollars on this NYTimes steering of the narrative.
“Trump Triumphant!” blares the most over-rated “institution” on the face of the planet.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@janesays:
Shout it from the rooftops. I don’t follow the ins and outs of the primary– I’m halfway between Warren and Biden, they both give me fits for different reasons– but are any of the candidate talking about the courts? Even if they are, as with so many things: How do we make people care? I don’t get it. I get tired just thinking about it.
(Can I use that fatigue as an excuse for doing nothing today? )
MisterForkbeard
@Mandalay: I think there’s a pretty huge difference between “Don’t criticize” and “Don’t bash” that you’re choosing to ignore here.
That said, people here absolutely do bash Bernie. I’ll tolerate it here but it bugs me to see it on social media. And that as someone who started out Bernie curious in 2016 but thinks he’s relatively awful and a bad leader now.
Omnes Omnibus
@Matt McIrvin: If you have an election where one fascist is running, I believe you have an obligation to vote against the fascist. In the end, I don’t care if the Democratic candidate is a drooling moron. I will vote against the fascist. It is simple.
MisterForkbeard
@janesays: I’m right there with you, with the possible exception of voting for Biden. We’ll have to see what happens by the time CA rolls around, but I’ll vote for Warren if she’s still viable.
If it comes down to Biden v. Bernie, I’ll vote for Biden. He lives in reality and not in soundbites… and he’s harder to demonize than Bernie is.
Mnemosyne
@Matt McIrvin:
The big danger is that Sanders depresses turnout by African American voters. They seem to feel they have good reason to believe that they won’t fare much better under a Sanders administration than they are under Trump, and they are BY FAR the most loyal Democratic voters.
If Sanders doesn’t manage to persuade them that he’ll be better for them than Trump, then he loses to Trump. Bigly. And to say that persuasion is not one of Sanders’ top skills is understating it by quite a lot.
ETA: Their “loyalty” to Biden is actually because both they and Biden know that they are crucial to his election and he will owe them favors if he wins. It’s not emotional, it’s transactional, and that’s just fine with everyone.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: Steve M on the Twitter:
Yep. Trump will get away with it, but everyone knows he did it.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@dr. bloor: and me
zhena gogolia
@Kay:
To be fair, their headlines have not been kind to Trump or the GOP.
Peter Baker always sucks.
zhena gogolia
@Omnes Omnibus:
What about when there are two Russia-backed fascists running? What do you then? Asking for a friend.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@Omnes Omnibus: many of the ideas Bernie espouses Hillary actually worked on for decades. Remember CHIP which I believe he actually voted against. I like AIC but the cult of Bernie makes me sick
Ruckus
@Matt McIrvin:
trump doesn’t dig. He is a massive fucking sinkhole that never stops getting bigger.
Chyron HR
@Matt McIrvin:
I like this idea that a Sanders administration would be a completely normal Democratic presidency, just with this one evil old man in the center of it all. His campaign/revolution is run entirely by toxic people who’s only qualification is to stroke his ego, and the only reason it hasn’t been completely subsumed by the Proud Boys yet is that they already have a president.
Ruckus
@MisterForkbeard:
CA primary is March 3, just over a month away.
Omnes Omnibus
@Betty Cracker: I still think that “getting away with it” is the wrong way to frame the result of impeachment. First, we made sure that what he did was widely publicized. Second, we got the Republicans to very publicly show who they are. Third, we have set the table very nicely for our campaigns this fall. And last, but by no means least, we did the right thing.
How we talk about it matters. If we say that Trump got away with it, if we say that this result proves that Republicans can get away with anything and the system is corrupt, then it becomes the default view. It doesn’t have to be, and I am sick of our side buying in to shitty frames.
Omnes Omnibus
@zhena gogolia: Is Bernie a fascist? I don’t think so.
Betty Cracker
@Omnes Omnibus: Okay. How will you describe what happens when the Senate acquits Trump on Wednesday?
janesays
Won’t argue with that.
Do you have any specific evidence to suggest that prior to her current gig, she wasn’t a working class bartender who had lost her father to cancer while she was an undergrad at Boston University?
Bullshit. Susan Sarandon is a ratfucker. Nina Turner is a ratfucker. AOC is a naive kid who has a lot to learn about how the sausage gets made in Congress, but genuinely believes in her positions. If Bernie Sanders isn’t the nominee, she will absolutely be a team player and support whoever the nominee is, even if it’s Joe Biden.
zhena gogolia
@Omnes Omnibus:
I do.
janesays
@the Conster: She was only 12 when she went to Boston University and interned for Ted Kennedy? I had no idea she was such a prodigy.
zhena gogolia
@Betty Cracker:
GOP senators cower in fear and acquit an obviously guilty man despite overwhelming evidence (including the evidence they refused to look at).
Omnes Omnibus
@Betty Cracker: The same way. We knew before anyone drafted the first sentence in the first article of impeachment that there was no way that there would be 67 votes to remove him in the Senate. Impeachment, therefore, served another purpose or it was pointless from the beginning.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@janesays:
honestly trying to think back to when I was thirty and what I did and didn’t grasp about American politics. I certainly didn’t think of myself as “kid”, I laugh now about how old I felt them. And I’m absolutely certain by the time I was 33, I had figured out that Michael Moore and his fellow travelers were full of some toxic shit and there was considerably more than a dime’s worth of difference between Al Gore and Ralph Nader.
the Conster
@janesays:
You know who I would like to hear that from? The High Sparrow himself, who didn’t mention it all through his failed run and put us in this position. Has he even once made the courts, and not his half baked hide the ball M4All plan, the focus of his shouty ranting? Has he appealed to the Dems who rejected his fraudulent egomaniacal ass to save what’s left of the courts he’s responsible for losing? No? Oh.
janesays
All of this. Although, I would note, I think it might be a little naive to imply that Sanders odds of nomination should still be characterized as “unlikely”. I think that was the case back when all of this started – I fully expected him to fade away by now and was sure Warren would crush him in New Hampshire, but that hasn’t happened. Sanders has figured out a way to stay at the top of the polls.
I’m inclined to think of Biden as the favorite, and if it’s either him or Bernie I certainly hope it’s him (Biden), but let’s not kid ourselves – Bernie Sanders is one of the two frontrunners right now. Right now, it seems extremely likely that the nominee is either going to be Joe Biden or Bernie Sanders. That is, if you believe the polls – which it seems like most people do when they tell us what we want to hear. I think Biden’s probably got the edge, but I don’t think it’s a very big edge. And as of this moment, I think people need to be prepared for the fact that there is a strong possibility that we’ll be seeing Bernie giving a victory speech Monday night after winning the Iowa caucuses. I hope that isn’t the case, but I’m not going to be shocked if it is.
the Conster
@zhena gogolia:
OMG GET OUT OF MY HEAD ZHENA. I DO TOO.
Putin’s a genius. It’s like being the owner of all the horses in the Kentucky Derby. He’s putting on a potemkin show for the rubes with a bunch of performative agents of destruction on both sides, miming the virtue signaling of democracy while collecting rubles.
Emma from FL
@janesays: Agree completely. Now if we could get the Bernie faithful to play by the same rules we’ll be set.
Betty Cracker
@Omnes Omnibus: I don’t disagree with any of that. Just trying to figure out why saying Trump “got away with it” like OJ is defeatist or shitty framing or whatever. It doesn’t imply innocence or futility. No one thinks OJ shouldn’t have been tried.
zhena gogolia
@the Conster:
Yes, Putin is a genius, of the most evil kind.
I never thought he’d take over the USA without firing a shot, but he has.
Kay
Everyone bitches about it, Warren does something about it. Love her.
janesays
@Mnemosyne: Sanders has closed the gap with Biden on African-American voters considerably, though I think Biden is still comfortably the frontrunner there. But if you take Joe Biden out of the picture – Sanders beats everybody else among black voters now. I know he struggled immensely with African-American voters in 2016 and early on in this campaign, but as his chances of actually winning the nomination have grown, so has his support among African-American and Latino voters.
https://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-tied-joe-biden-democratic-race-nationally-among-african-american-community-polls-1482864
the Conster
@zhena gogolia:
Yup. RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA WORKS.
He weaponized our sexism and racism against us, found all the holes in our capitalist system and flooded the zone with rubles and disinformation, and the weak minded, low info white majority fell, hard. That’s why I’ll only follow black women from now on. They’re the only ones who can see, smell and feel the bullshit everyone else doesn’t.
Kay
The candidates have a ton of money and many of you-all gave it to them. They can all afford to take a tiny portion of what they would have put into tv ads and hire trained childcare providers for 12 hours.
It isn’t just how you raise money that makes it “grass roots”. It’s how you spend it. We don’t have to spend it the same ways as we always have. They are AWASH in money. Do they spend it well?
Omnes Omnibus
@Betty Cracker: Because impeachment should be seen as poart of an overall strategy to defeat Trump and the GOP. Many years ago, when I was a baby lawyer, my firm let me argue a case at the court of appeals (normally it would not have let someone as junior as I was be lead on something like that) because our only goal at the court of appeals was to have jumped through that hoop before appealing to the state supreme court. I lost because I was supposed to; the appellate court was bound by a supreme court precedent. The goal was to get to the supreme court and get them to reverse their position. I see the current situation as similar; the goal has always been November. Other people’s mileage obviously varies.
the Conster
@janesays:
The latest poll from South Carolina has Biden ahead of Sanders with blacks by about 20%.
janesays
@Immanentize: She probably would need to go to law school before she would ever be considered for a SCOTUS seat – or any seat on any federal court, for that matter. Yeah, I know it’s technically possible for someone without a law degrees to be named to SCOTUS, but it’s also technically possible for an avowed Satanist to get elected president. I don’t expect either of those things to happen in my lifetime.
janesays
@geg6: That’s pretty specifically violent, and kinda gross. You maybe should have left it with…
Omnes Omnibus
@zhena gogolia: Then I would say that the same obligation exists in the primary.
Kathleen
@Betty Cracker: I wonder if Pierce has called out Bernie for his non stop airing of his grievances. None of the puderattis call him out for that. Yet Hillary speaking truth is “unhelpful”.
.
janesays
@the Conster: I think it’s fair to say that Biden is clearly the favorite among black voters. That’s not really in dispute. What’s in dispute is whether or not Sanders can win black voters at all. While the polling clearly shows that Biden has the strongest support African-Americans, Sanders support has increased quite a bit over the last several months.
Basically, if you buy the argument that Sanders can’t possibly win among African-Americans, then what you’re really saying is that NOBODY can win among African-Americans except Joe Biden. Sanders is trailing Biden among this critical voting bloc, but he’s way ahead of Warren, Buttigieg, and Klobuchar among black voters right now.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@janesays: the rusty chainsaw is a long time Balloon Juice, and I believe broader internet, tradition
Chris Johnson
@the Conster: No vote has been cast yet. I call bullshit.
I would say, RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA IS. And it’s a factor. Whether it ‘works’ or is an unanswerably superior weapon is NOT at all a given. It’s our job to make it not work.
I feel like talking blithely about ‘our sexism and racism’ in a country that elected Barack Obama twice, is enemy talk. Cut it out. We don’t have to be that and it’s propaganda to claim that is all we are.
Kathleen
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix: Of course you do.
zhena gogolia
@Omnes Omnibus:
I live in one of those states where my vote counts for nothing either in the primary or the general. I will certainly not vote for Sanders in the primary, but by then it will be too late.
Omnes Omnibus
@janesays: Are you new here? Suggesting that people self-copulate with rusty agricultural/logging equipment has a long and proud history in this corner of the ‘net. Also, just for fun, try seeing which blog pops up first when you google “skull fuck a kitten.”
Kay
@janesays:
Agree. I was watching to see if he’d increase with black voters and he has. I think he has to show he can, and he has now done that.
Kathleen
@Probably Not an Asshole mistermix: Of course you do.
Betty Cracker
@Kathleen: Yep, Pierce says it right there in the excerpt I quoted, and he says it’s on the Sanders campaign to knock it off.
Kathleen
@WaterGirl: She repeated Bernie’s claim that Biden supported cutting Social Security.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: I read an article the other day (can’t remember where) about how well Sanders is doing with Latino voters. Hadn’t heard that before. The article also said this will be the first election where Latino voters are the largest bloc of eligible minority voters.
Kay
My middle son is now firmly Bernie. He was here last night., so I asked him. He’ll vote Bernie in Michigan. He’s IBEW – I think they are (traditionally) the leftiest of the building trades unions.
janesays
This is a totally fair criticism, and it’s also one that applies to literally every single candidate in the Democratic field. None of them are spending much time talking about judges on the stump.
So what do we have to work with, then? His votes on judicial appointments. To the best of my knowledge, he consistently voted to confirm Obama’s judicial nominees, and has consistently voted against Trump’s judicial nominees. Ergo, it’s a reasonably safe assumption that he is more likely to nominate the sort of justices that Obama would nominate than the sort of judges that Trump would nominate.
And you know that.
And just to be clear, I’m not arguing with you to sell you on Bernie over any of the other Democratic candidates in the field, I’m arguing with you to sell you on Bernie over the literal fascist in the White House who locks kids in cages for fun and would happily replace RBG with a lunatic judge who is ready to join Thomas, Alito, Gorsuch, and Kavanaugh in overturning Roe v Wade on Day One, and I can promise you that for all his (many, many, many) faults, Sanders would do neither of those things.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Betty Cracker: I think there’s a big gap between his support among different Hispanic groups: He does really well with Mexican-Americans in CA, not so much with Cuban- and Venezualan-Americans in FL. Not sure about the Puerto Rican community in FL where, from what I read, Dems are really lagging in outreach. Don’t know what you see on the ground.
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
Interesting! I’m looking forward to Iowa results. This is the part I like :)
Part of it is I think we’re going to win the Presidential. Trump should be doing better in Ohio. If it’s w/in 2 in OH that means we win PA and MI. I know political media will never say it because it’s too risky to say but it is the truth. Being slightly ahead in Ohio is not good for him.
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
I could switch from Warren by the time I vote because as I believe I have made clear I am completely tactical and w/out firm beliefs :)
I might just join the crowd- wherever they land. I’ve decided this is up to Democrats and I’m just along for the ride. If I have to trust anyone I trust them. Us.
Betty Cracker
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: That’s absolutely true — great point. One argument for Biden over Sanders is that Sanders will definitely get clobbered in Florida, whereas Biden has a chance here.
I think the “socialist” smear that Trump will use really works here, not just among elderly Cuban exiles but also Venezuelans and others who either escaped or have family ties to people in failed socialist states.
On the other hand, Dems don’t seem to be counting on Florida regardless. The state party is a basket case and has been for years. The outreach in 2018 was uneven, from what I hear. I know the Dems in the Tampa Bay area put a lot of effort into it but from what I understand, that wasn’t the case statewide.
@Kay: I think we’re going to win too. I believe Trump is much weaker than widely supposed. I’m glad everyone is afraid he’ll win again — we need to run as if we’re desperate. But I think he’s going to lose. Most people are sick of the shit-show and ready to change the channel. (Of course, I was 100% convinced he’d lose in 2016, so what do I know?;)
glory b
There was a rally where AOC praised Bernie for CHIP, saying her Mom needed it for her healthcare.
Bernie voted against CHIP, it was Hillary’s brainchild.
He sat next to her while she said it, he didn’t correct her.
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
Right. We’re all traumatized. But I do think we’re going to win so I’ve been saying it. The Democrats here are all superstitious so they’re “OMG! DON’T say it!” but why not? I’m not a professional. What do I care if I’m wrong? I can believe I’m going to lose and then lose or believe I’m going to win and then lose. I prefer the latter.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@glory b: I did not know that, but color me utterly un-surprised. It’s the like the Crime Bill Redux– Bernie only voted for the good parts! or something
@Betty Cracker: wasn’t there a billionaire, or close enough, in the D gubernatorial primary? I wish he or Steyer or somebody with deep pockets would pony up and help Andrew Gillum, or somebody, get the state party’s shit together. I know Bloomberg gave Stacey Abram’s organization $5M, so credit where due, but just think what he could do with all the money he’s spending on himself.
And god help me, I sometimes think I might wind up voting for Bloomaparte.
mrmoshpotato
@Omnes Omnibus: If I set Duckduckgo’s search filter to Strict, I get no search results for that. Haha
sgrAstar
@BRyan: “How will replacing trump with an ineffectual blowhard from (sort of) our side accomplish anything toward meeting the desperate needs of what’s left of our country?”
ACK! Bernie will not appoint anti-choice judges. Bernie will not further gut the EPA. Bernie will not dismantle our public lands. Bernie will not build walls. Bernie will not attack our safety net. Bernie will not go after our DACA students. Bernie will not go to war in the ME. Are you fucking kidding?!! I’m not remotely a Bernie fan, BUT!!!!
?
Kathleen
@Chyron HR: I’m also curious about a nominee who hates Democrats getting real Democrats to the polls to vote down ticket. If Dems don’t control the Senate, his Supreme Court nominees will go nowhere (see Garland, Merrick, whom btw Bernie also thought was not pure enough).
the Conster
@janesays:
As far as I’m concerned he’s not doing those things because he’s not going to be the nominee, if I can help it. I’m never going to reward his behavior. I’ve been voting for the real Dem every election for 45 years, and will continue to do so. Go talk to your MAGAS. Convince them to vote for the Bern. That’s what his election strategy is, right?
Villago Delenda Est
@janesays: I am uncertain whether to applaud this comment enthusiastically, or to denounce it as a pox upon all humanity.
Procopius
@bemused: I’m only 82, so I may not have real insight into the “olds,” but I think it has to do with growing up before The Pill. The best way to avoid STDs is to use a condom, but in the era before The Pill buying a condom was a terribly embarrassing experience. Just the thought of going into a drug store and asking the pharmacist for a condom, with all those other people around, hearing and seeing you, would make you cringe. Very few people actually had sex anyway (I think that’s still true). To an old person I expect buying a condom is still an embarrassing experience so they don’t, and are vulnerable to infection.
tam1MI
I don’t think you’re alone. I’ve run into too many Dems who have told me that they will stay home if Bernie is forced on them as the nominee. They are out there, and it only takes a few thousand of them staying home in key states to throw the election to Trump.
I rather suspect this is way she has been so blunt and forthright in her opinions these days. She doesn’t have anything to lose any more, she doesn’t have to triple-guess every word that falls out of her mouth. That’s got to be freeing.
And the latest BernieBullshit vis a vis Joe Rogan and George Wallace isn’t likely to reduce that spread.
janesays
@the Conster: I’m not trying to convince you to vote for anybody. Vote for whoever you want. Assuming her candidacy is still viable, I’m voting for Elizabeth Warren on March 10th in my primary, and if her candidacy is going nowhere at that point, I’m voting for Biden or whoever appears to be the most likely candidate to beat Sanders. I think most of the grievances against Sanders are completely valid, and I’ve got no issue with people working their asses off to make sure he isn’t the nominee. I genuinely hope he isn’t the nominee…
BUT
He’s doing very well in the polls right now, and we’re deluding ourselves if we think he doesn’t have any shot at winning the nomination. Biden and Sanders are the two frontrunners, the poll data makes that clear. One of them is almost certainly going to be the nominee. I’d rather neither of them be the nominee because I really don’t want a president who is going to turn 80 in his first term in office, but if I have to pick one of them, I pick Biden, even though I’m closer aligned with Sanders in terms of policy beliefs.
All that said, Bernie Sanders might wind up being the Democratic nominee for president. That’s a potential reality we may have to face. And if he is, that means that the person who will be taking the presidential oath of office on January 20, 2021 in front of the Capitol while either be Donald Trump or it will be Bernie Sanders.
If those are my two choices, I choose Bernie Sanders. Every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Sitting this election out is not an option – this is a literal existential choice for the country, and any choice that helps Donald Trump get re-elected is a willful choice to enable evil. No one who considers themselves a progressive can make anything remotely resembling a sane argument for not voting for Bernie Sanders should he become the nominee (and this obviously applies to literally any person who becomes the Democratic nominee).
It’s real simple – if Sanders is the nominee and you take your ball and go home and refuse to vote for him because you can’t get over an election that happened four years ago, then you are every bit as much a steaming pile of shit as the asshole Bernie Bros who refused to vote for Hillary Clinton in 2016. Emulating the most assholish behavior of assholes only makes you an asshole, too. And as bad as the consequences were for Trump’s victory in 2016, they’ll be exponentially worse if he gets a second term in 2020.
So if Sanders becomes the nominee and you want to sit out the election, then sit it out. Nobody is gonna stop you. If Trump wins, the blood of every single woman who dies in a botched back alley abortion after the new 6-3 wingnut majority court overturns Roe will be on your hands. I couldn’t live with myself if I knew I had any part in enabling that to happen.
janesays
Whoever winds up being the nominee, they won’t be “forced” on anybody. They will be the nominee because they got the most delegates, and they will have the most delegates because they got more votes than any of the other candidates. You know… democracy? I will support the person who is able to win the Democratic nomination in the primaries, no matter who that person is. Why? Because they will have earned the nomination by garnering the support of more voters in my party than any other candidate (last I checked, the Democratic nomination process doesn’t involve an electoral college that can reward the popular vote loser). I may love that person. I may be just OK with that person. I may feel “meh” towards that person. I may actively dislike that person. I may deeply resent that person. But whoever that person is, I will give them my support in the form of my vote in November – at the very least. NO MATTER WHAT.