Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Battle won, war still ongoing.

That’s my take and I am available for criticism at this time.

Balloon Juice has never been a refuge for the linguistically delicate.

Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

Consistently wrong since 2002

Not so fun when the rabbit gets the gun, is it?

Incompetence, fear, or corruption? why not all three?

A last alliance of elves and men. also pet photos.

Let us savor the impending downfall of lawless scoundrels who richly deserve the trouble barreling their way.

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

I’m pretty sure there’s only one Jack Smith.

Speaking of republicans, is there a way for a political party to declare intellectual bankruptcy?

It’s always darkest before the other shoe drops.

They traffic in fear. it is their only currency. if we are fearful, they are winning.

A democracy can’t function when people can’t distinguish facts from lies.

Teach a man to fish, and he’ll sit in a boat all day drinking beer.

This has so much WTF written all over it that it is hard to comprehend.

Wow, I can’t imagine what it was like to comment in morse code.

Take your GOP plan out of the witness protection program.

They are lying in pursuit of an agenda.

Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.

Let’s delete this post and never speak of this again.

Proof that we need a blogger ethics panel.

Putting aside our relentless self-interest because the moral imperative is crystal clear.

You are here: Home / Past Elections / 2020 Elections / Election Year Open Thread: The Other (Unknowing?) Russian Puppet

Election Year Open Thread: The Other (Unknowing?) Russian Puppet

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For the record, I absolutely DO NOT think that Senator Sanders, after being briefed that Russia was attempting to interfere in his favor during the 2020 election, deliberately attempted to hide this information from the voters.

I think, just as he’s said he ‘disregarded’ the nagging chest pains prior to his heart attack, he put his head down and hoped the Russian news… would go away. At least until after the election. Because it just wasn’t a good time to deal with distractions, dammit!

Didn’t work to keep his heart muscle from dying; isn’t gonna work any better in the general election, even if he wins the Nevada caucuses.

Credit where due — now that he’s been pinned to the wall, Strong Words!


Can’t see anything so ‘classified’ in this statement that Sanders couldn’t have made it a month ago… except that he didn’t want to have reporters asking awkward questions. But if, purely coincidentally, his silence happened to give him a little extra edge in Nevada…


Schadenfreude:

The Cosplay Socialists are MAAAD!

Reader Interactions

196Comments

  3. 3.

    germy

    Wait. Bernie did say something. In the debate, he suggested that Russian trolls posing as rude Sanders supporters were harming his campaign. When he knew the opposite was likely true.

    I don’t follow “John Cammo’s (200 twitter followers)” logic here.  Russia is helping Trump and Sanders.  Wouldn’t that mean Russian trolls posing as Trump and Sanders supporters?   Why is the opposite true?

  5. 5.

    Hunter Gathers

    The fact that he refused to get out in front of this a month ago shows that he would get utterly destroyed in a general election.  He and his team lack the skills to fight the dark arts.

    He allowed Putin and Trump to gain leverage on him and that is totally unacceptable.  We may be looking at the worst politician of the 21st century.

    His biggest problem is that his ideology keeps him from seeing Russia as the threat that they are.  Scratch a socialist long enough – especially one of his age – and you’ll find someone sympathetic to Communism.

    Socialism cannot fail, it can only be failed.  Deep down, he’s agnostic at best about the Russian threat, and believes that the Soviet Union only collapsed because they they didn’t adhere close enough to his precious ideology.  Get him drunk and you’ll get a 30 minute rant about how the Soviet Union would have been a glorious worker’s paradise if they had only truly implemented Marx’s manifesto.

  8. 8.

    japa21

    The honorable thing for him to do would be to say. “So that there is no doubt as to whether or not I am accepting assistance from Russia, I am withdrawing my candidacy for the nomination of the Democratic Party for President.  I hereby, in order to send the strongest message possible that I condemn Russia’s actions, endorse Tulsi Gabbard.”

  10. 10.

    RobertDSC-Mac Mini

    Every thumbnail I see of him just makes him look so old. It’s incredibly depressing to see.

  12. 12.

    Uncle Cosmo

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary Presidential campaign depends on his not understanding it.

    (Upton Sinclair, 2120 reboot)

    I’m backing off from one thing I posted a few threads down: I no longer believe BS is a knowing tool of Putin. (Jane? нет коментариев.) But I do recall (at least enough to paraphrase) something Speer said in Inside the Third Reich:

    There were, shall we say, certain lines of inquiry that one simply knew not to pursue because one knew that at their end would be found something so monstrous that anyone with a shred of decency left** would have to choose between opposition (almost surely futile & at the cost of one’s life if not his entire family’s) and acceptance (i.e., complicity).

    (** NB I am not implying that Speer was among such; only that I believe his point is valid. People routinely – reflexively – close their eyes to injustice or atrocity because in our default solipsism we pretend that what we don’t see doesn’t exist.)

    I could believe that Bernie would like to believe that Russian meddling isn’t a large part of his tailwinds, & there is nothing he can do to stop it anyway. Call it the vanity of an old fart who after many years of irrelevance seems finally within reach (if not grasp) of his political fantasies. But I wonder how he’d react if a reliable source showed him compelling evidence that some of his inner staff were in Putin’s pocket. I’m not sanguine about the likely result.

  14. 14.

    AnonPhenom

    Wait, Putin thinks that the best match-up for 2020, if like him you’re rooting for injuries, is Trump v Sanders?

    Well, you have to admit he has America’s measure.

  16. 16.

    MattF

    My guess is that Sanders saw the intel on Russian influence as just spy agencies doing their usual thing– and there’s some truth to that. The question I’d ask is whether he really gets the connection between Trump and the Russians.

  17. 17.

    zhena gogolia

    @AnonPhenom:

    Yes, ever since our country reacted to the breakup of the Soviet Union by cutting the study of Russia and Russian in high schools and colleges, they certainly have our measure much more than we have theirs.

  19. 19.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Aziz, light!: Would all four egotistical old white guys please drop dead before the election?

    I gotta point out that running for President is a pretty egotistical thing to do. ;-)

  20. 20.

    germy

    It might be difficult to tell what Russia's intent is. Are negative bots attacking Bernie's opponents helping or hurting Bernie? You could argue either way.— Lindsay Beyerstein (@beyerstein) February 22, 2020

    I believe that Russia's number one priority is to sow dissent within the Democratic Party and fracture the Democratic coalition, and any rooting interest in the winner is secondary at best.— Lindsay Beyerstein (@beyerstein) February 22, 2020

    If that's the goal, then Bernie's as much a victim as a beneficiary of Russia's scheme. It seems unfair to demand that he come forward when he's being maligned as the beneficiary of Russian aid.— Lindsay Beyerstein (@beyerstein) February 22, 2020

  21. 21.

    Mike J

    Bernie is briefed Russia is supporting his campaign. Meanwhile, his staff is all over the internet mocking people for daring to imply Russia may have helped his campaign.

  22. 22.

    germy

    Bernie did volunteer last week that some of the negativity in his campaign might might be bots, rather than real supporters.
    What if that's the substance of what he was told/allowed to tell by the IC?
    — Lindsay Beyerstein (@beyerstein) February 22, 2020

  23. 23.

    JPL

    @MattF: Except for the fact that he mentioned the bad bros were Russian trolls trying to hurt him.    He knew Russian was helping him, so why say that..

  25. 25.

    WaterGirl

    I am horrified, outraged and appalled, but not surprised.

    I think this is one more thing that makes Bernie unfit for the Democratic nomination, but I can’t imagine that this is going to move the needle much, if at all.

    °  If you love Bernie, you will see him as victimized in yet one more way, poor Bernie.

    °  If you don’t like or trust Bernie already, you can’t possibly be surprised by this news.

    °  If you have no opinion of Bernie already, you are not paying attention, so you won’t be swayed.

  26. 26.

    germy

    Mike loves @SUBWAY – he could eat it for every meal.
    What’s your order? pic.twitter.com/65mY75Q0N3
    — Team Bloomberg (@Mike2020) February 21, 2020

    Mike Bloomberg's FEC filings show his campaign paid $10,000+ to Air Culinaire, an in-flight catering service for private jets w/ menus featuring seared wagyu steak with foie gras and Petrossian Caviar.

    The filings show $0 in expenditures at Subway. https://t.co/nvT6Sayb2I https://t.co/4RnZAQnsc8

    — Julia Carrie Wong (@juliacarriew) February 21, 2020

  27. 27.

    MattF

    @zhena gogolia: Well, I’d say he’d much prefer to take the credit for his current successes, rather than saying it’s thanks to the Russians. I think, also, he’s getting boosts from the White House– it’s not a coincidence that all the usual RW concern trollers are saying it’s now down to Trump vs. Sanders. And, surely, it’s not an accident that the RW, the White House, and the Russians are all pointing in the same direction.

  28. 28.

    WaterGirl

    @Mike J:

    Bernie is briefed Russia is supporting his campaign. Meanwhile, his staff is all over the internet mocking people for daring to imply Russia may have helped his campaign.

    That bears repeating.

  30. 30.

    germy

    @topclimber:  I’m on team Warren, but some of the Bernie bashing here is over the top.   If he wins the nomination (I hope not) I’ll vote for him.  But again, I hope it doesn’t come to that.

  31. 31.

    JPL

    @germy:  I’m not a fan of Bloomberg, but the filing doesn’t mean he doesn’t eat at Subways.   He might not charge his campaign for it, if it is not related to his campaign.

  34. 34.

    Baud

    In 2016, Russia used internet propaganda to sow division in our country, 

    I’ve noticed that this is how we talk now about 2016, because it’s absolutely verboten to mention Hillary’s name in a sympathetic context.

  35. 35.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @JPL:He might not charge his campaign for it, if it is not related to his campaign.

    Oh ye of little faith. You think he got rich spending his own money? ;-)

  39. 39.

    JamesKPolkEsq

    Obviously in 2016, the Russian GRU was boosting Bernie to hurt Clinton, not at all hard to see. He wasn’t going to win, just chum the electorate for discord and reap the benefits.

    2020 is a totally different ballgame. Now Sanders is the front-runner.

    What did that WaPo report actually say about the help Wilmer is getting from the Russians this year? It seems extremely light on details

    I’ve just seen too many headlines that don’t jive with the reporting of the piece (looking at you FTFNYT) to just read the headline and calculate from that.

  40. 40.

    Wapiti

    @zhena gogolia: No, the Republicans have hopelessly compromised our elections. The Russians are just attacking through the flaws that the Republicans have insisted on leaving in place.

  43. 43.

    ThresherK

    people who spin it as hysterical libs vs. Bernie are full of shit

    There it is again: Not-left-enough-for-Bernie Dems (or anyone) used to be neoliberals, now we* are liberals.

    I’m not on Twitter 24×7, more like .5×3, and only as a reader. So: Is this as new as I think it is? What is with the relabeling? And what will be the next term when they tire of that?

    (*In retrospect, I’ve been one for a couple of years at least.)

  45. 45.

    ThresherK

    @OzarkHillbilly: Bloomberg has an embarrassing history of NDAs. Jimmie Johns has a hilarious and embarrassing history of NCAs (non-compete agreements, in the high-stakes cutthroat world of…sandwich construction), which aren’t too different.

    I guess Bloomberg doesn’t want to remind people of his NDAs too much.

  47. 47.

    Chyron HR

    @ThresherK:

    They’ve used “neoliberal” to mean “anything I don’t like” long enough that people have noticed it’s a meaningless accusation.  Now they’re trying to conflate American liberalism with “the policies espoused by the right-wing political parties named The Liberal Party in various Commonwealth nations.”

  49. 49.

    ThresherK

    @Chyron HR: That’s the thing: I am not an ignorant when it comes to international politics, but when Americans make that reference, is that so much an inside joke that (statistically) nobody will get it?

    I have way too many Bernie-backing acquaintances (not in this space, but IRL) who can’t seem to go five minutes without remarking, unpromptedly, something other country’s political system or government programs*.

    It’s an incredible case of eye-off-the-ball for me.

    (*Exception: The subject of Russian interference in our elections is always valid when talking about American politics.)

  51. 51.

    trollhattan

    @germy:

    Suppose if all that happened then it becomes a “totally consensual event that never happened and besides she’s a dog and not my type I was golfing that day look at my diary which I should totally start writing” kind of he-said/she-said thing.

    Ugh.

  52. 52.

    JPL

    OT   If I’m not around for awhile, it could be  cuz our phones are tapped.   After reading the article in The New Yorker about Stephen Miller, I might have said a few unfortunate things about what should be done with him.   He’s a sick puppy that should be driven out of government asap

    The reason I’m not linking to it is simple.   Your day will be ruined.

  53. 53.

    Bill Arnold

    @germy:

    Russian trolls posing as rude Sanders supporters were harming his campaign.

    The paid Russian trolls are persistent but polite, and are helping his campaign. Perhaps?

  54. 54.

    Brachiator

    For the record, I absolutely DO NOT think that Senator Sanders, after being briefed that Russia was attempting to interfere in his favor during the 2020 election, deliberately attempted to hide this information from the voters.

    This is not for Bernie Sanders to deal with, not on his own.

    There is credible evidence of an attempt by Russia to influence the presidential election, and neither the president nor the GOP leadership is taking any steps to deal with it? And people are reacting to these revelations as if they were nothing more than unexpected rain, something irksome, but not anything that you can do anything about?  Absurd.

  56. 56.

    Bill Arnold

    @Hunter Gathers:

    He and his team lack the skills to fight the dark arts.

    This. Frankly I’m not sure any of the Democratic Party presidential candidates (including their teams) are sufficiently adept at these arts, and non-squeemish enough to fight multiple dark arts practitioners/actors and win. (Getting a lot better though.) But the Sanders campaign is really pathetic.

  59. 59.

    MomSense

    Isn’t Russia an oligarchy?  Seems pretty important to tell us if a hostile foreign power that just happens to be an oligarchy is interfering in our election.  It’s like a super super pac helping his campaign.

  60. 60.

    MomSense

    @Brachiator:

    I share your frustration. Don’t we the voters have the right to know? He’s the front runner in a process that has been infiltrated by a hostile foreign power for the frontrunner’s benefit and we’re supposed to just accept it.

  61. 61.

    tam1MI

    At this point, if Bernie gets the nomination, I plan to either leave the top of my ballot blank, or write in Hillary Clinton.

  62. 62.

    MomSense

    @JamesKPolkEsq:

    There are a lot of special interests that have always made political contributions to both parties. Heads they win, tails they win.  This seems like a similar tactic to me.

  63. 63.

    A Ghost To Most

    @germy: I prefer voting for actual Democrats. It’s like BS saying the party should change its rules to benefit him (after demanding the opposite last time), but he can’t be assed to actually join the party.

    Fuck Boris Sanders.

  64. 64.

    columbusqueen

    Maybe this story is why Warren didn’t go after Sanders at the debate-she was tipped it was coming out?

  65. 65.

    rikyrah

    I don’t know why you give Bernie the benefit of the doubt. He doesn’t deserve the benefit of the doubt. This isn’t an isolated case. It’s a phucking repeat of 2016.

  67. 67.

    Brachiator

    @MomSense:

    I share your frustration. Don’t we the voters have the right to know?

    To know what? And what would you do with that knowledge? How are you supposed to react?

    And I do not see the point of bashing Sanders on this.

    Again, to me the issue is that the government and the sitting president appears to be allowing the Russians to interfere in the election. Whether it is to help a particular candidate, or to hurt another candidate is not the most significant aspect of the thing. The interference and attempt to wield influence is the problem.

    And the apparent connivance of the president and the GOP leadership to ignore this interference, or worse, to welcome it, has got to be criminal and impeachable.

    And this is not just an issue for the US.  Boris Johnson has apparently not approved the release of a report about Russian interference in the British elections.

    I presume that the intelligence agencies are doing what they can. But it is just nuts to have a president who actively attacks those agencies trying to protect us, and to watch the GOP either deny any problem, or just keep quiet, like the docile lackeys they are.

  68. 68.

    topclimber

    @Chyron HR: Ah, more slander from you. I will let you have the last word. I know I will not be the only one here who would be glad if it really IS your last word.

  69. 69.

    Don Beal

    I’ll reserve smirking for the future when the Sanders/Warren or Warren/Sanders ticket is announced.

  70. 70.

    kindness

    I’m still trying to make sense of why Bernie didn’t release the Russian help info a month ago when he got it.  For appearances sake it looks really bad.  And then blaming the press when it does come out?  Duude!

  71. 71.

    anarchoRex

    I guess it never occurred to anyone that the chaos Putin is counting on in the Dem party is how people, like a lot of the folks in the comments here, will  freak out over a Bernie win.

  72. 72.

    Chyron HR

    Don, Top, Rex, let me ask you–when you’re hanging out on your Bernie blogs talking about, I dunno, guillotines and snake emojis, do Warren supporters show up and screech at you to start loving her or else?  Just wondering.

  73. 73.

    Brachiator

    @A Ghost To Most:

    I prefer voting for actual Democrats. It’s like BS saying the party should change its rules to benefit him (after demanding the opposite last time), but he can’t be assed to actually join the party.

    I absolutely agree with you, but the Democrats should have addressed this in, say, 2015 at the latest.

  77. 77.

    Don Beal

    @Chyron HR:

     

    @Chyron HR: This is the only comment thread I follow on the internet because it is just so over the top. Kind of fascinating in a disheartening way. I have always thought liberals were more thoughtful. For the record I would gladly support Elizabeth Warren and I carried protest signs promoting her as far back as the Bush 2 presidency. I support Sanders because the Democratic party needs a big change in direction that will not occur with the DNC that exists now.

  80. 80.

    Brachiator

    @rp:

    to know that Putin is supporting sanders! And to use that info to not vote for him. That’s pretty freaking important.

    So, if it were to be announced tomorrow that Putin was also supporting Warren or Biden, would you not vote for either of them as well?

  81. 81.

    topclimber

    @Don Beal:  I don’t do Bernie Blogs.  I comment here mostly (after a long period of indentured lurkitude) and sometimes at Daily Kos. That might suggest what candidate I favor, but for now I am holding silence on that because I will be damned if I submit to the purity test demanded by a portion of this community.

  82. 82.

    Elizabelle

    Will put this comment into this thread too, although not in the mood to discuss Bernie much (personally) today.  Would be interested in your takes [well, most of your takes — ;-) ].

    Thinking on Bernie’s candidacy being supported by Russian oligarchs/Putin:

    Bloomberg owns a media company.  It does some solid reporting; ear to the ground.

    Do you think he (and they) picked up wisps on this earlier?  And that is one reason he entered the race?

    It does seem that his entrance stopped Warren’s ascent, but maybe he (and Biden) are in there to take out the shouting one from Vermont.  Who is there to tear the Democratic party — the only functioning party in the US — apart.  For Putin’s pleasure.

    I hope we will see a lot of movement to the non-Bernie candidates.  I cannot even guess what Nevada will do, but we’ve got some time to sort all this out before Super Tuesday.

  85. 85.

    MazeDancer

    @tam1MI:

    At this point, if Bernie gets the nomination, I plan to either leave the top of my ballot blank, or write in Hillary Clinton.

    If only we could.

    But not to vote for whomever is the nominee is a vote for Trump.

    Just like the idiots did to Hillary. And got Trump elected.

  87. 87.

    WaterGirl

    @Elizabelle:

    It does seem that his [Bloomberg’s] entrance stopped Warren’s ascent…

    Change that to “stalled” and I might agree.  I think she’s back up and running again.

    Also, Bloomberg dilutes the “not Bernie” vote, which does nothing to dent Bernie’s popularity and only makes a Bernie win more likely, and a Biden win less likely.

  88. 88.

    Chyron HR

    @Brachiator:

    Well, see, here’s the funny thing, he’s not.  It’s Sanders.  Every fucking primary until the day he dies, it’s going to be Sanders.

  89. 89.

    zhena gogolia

    @Brachiator:

    What a ridiculous question.

    We have seen evidence that Russia is supporting Sanders. No such evidence exists re Warren or Biden, in fact the entire impeachment hinged on a Russian effort to hurt Biden, which seems to have succeeded. Now the evidence that Russia is supporting Sanders has been confirmed. Isn’t that important information for the voters to have?

  90. 90.

    MisterForkbeard

    @MazeDancer: Yeah, don’t do that.

    If Bernie is the nominee, vote for him. Dont cut off your nose to spit your face

     

    Hell, don’t cut off MY nose to spite your face. This is a decision that affects everyone else you know.

  91. 91.

    Brachiator

    @Cameron:

    This story about Trump’s approach to national security is sobering.

    “By the end of this month, Mr. O’Brien will have completed what he calls a streamlining of the National Security Council, chopping the council’s staff from 174 policy positions in October to fewer than 115. The reductions have focused on the dozens of career officials who are detailed to the council from other federal departments and agencies, including the C.I.A., the Pentagon and the State Department,” the report states.

    This allows the group to work with less interference from career officials who are considered suspect by Trump loyalists.

    Apparently, Trump doesn’t need advice because he is … a stable genius. And Putin’s lap dog.

    ETA: apologies to good lap dogs.

  93. 93.

    debbie

    @JPL:

    The New Yorker is promoting an interview with the author of that article on their radio show. I cannot wait to be pissed. //

  96. 96.

    debbie

    @MomSense:

    It would be nice if he had the self-awareness to realize they want him to get the nomination because they know that he will fail against Trump. Guess his ego is too massive to acknowledge that ratfuckery.

  97. 97.

    MazeDancer

    @anarchoRex:

    I guess it never occurred to anyone that the chaos Putin is counting on in the Dem party is how people, like a lot of the folks in the comments here, will freak out over a Bernie win.

    No, Putin will be disappointed by BJ.

    Every single person on this blog loves America and the Constitution. And knows that neither will exist with 4 more years of Trump.

    So, we will suck it up and vote Dem.

    Because not voting Dem is a vote for Trump.

    We will put up with watching a lying, lazy, worthless grifter who has managed to only  pass 7 bills during 30 years in Congress throw away our nation’s hope of freedom from Trump.

    We will actually go out and work to recruit voters while Trump reads, daily, from Bernie’s porn writings. And gets Russians to talk about how much Bernie loves Communism over pictures of his honeymoon in Moscow.

    And work out brains out while the FBI opens another investigation into Jane’s ridiculous nepotism ruin of a college.

    We will concentrate on the Senate. And saving the House.

    Goddess help us if we fail.

  98. 98.

    Mike R

    @debbie: You know what can really piss some one off,  the chain breaking on the manure spreader, with it 3/4 full and getting ready to shovel contents out to repair.  Well at least it is honest horse poop and not republican B.S.

  99. 99.

    Brachiator

    @Elizabelle:

    Do you think he (and they) picked up wisps on this earlier? And that is one reason he entered the race?

    No. Bloomberg thinks he is better than any of the candidates. Otherwise, he could have peeled off a chunk of cash to help one or more of them.

  101. 101.

    MomSense

    @debbie:

    I honestly think his win would be just fine with the Russians.  He won’t accomplish anything substantial and he won’t rebuild our alliances.  His track record of opposition to Russian sanctions is beneficial. Russia wins either way.

  104. 104.

    Brachiator

    @zhena gogolia:

    in fact the entire impeachment hinged on a Russian effort to hurt Biden, which seems to have succeeded.

    No. The impeachment was about Trump’s abuse of power and obstruction of Congress.

    Now the evidence that Russia is supporting Sanders has been confirmed. Isn’t that important information for the voters to have?

    What are you going to do with the information now that you have it?  What would you have done had you known it earlier?

    And again I ask another basic question: shouldn’t the response to this to be to ensure that Russia is not allowed to interfere in any way with US elections?

  106. 106.

    Ella in New Mexico

    My first thinking about how this fiasco highlights exactly how Russia interferes in our elections: They set up the circumstances and either the candidates or the electorate’s innate weaknesses do them in. Russia just sits back and watches the dominoes fall, oh so easily. In Christian teachings, it’s how The Devil gets us to do bad things:  by our failure to take a deep inventory and choose honesty, courage and goodness rather than self-gratification.

    Bernie was briefed a month ago and did not come right back out on the TV to let the public and other candidates in the race know, and to then forcefully condemn Russia. THAT would have been the right thing to do and it very likely would have not changed the outcome of either Iowa or NH. It might have even helped him.

    Instead he chose to keep it on the down-low–a weak and likely dishonest act that reflects his ego and desperate need to finally be President–which immediately handed off his control of the situation to not only the Russians but to the White House, who ALSO knew.  It was the Administration who tipped off the Washington Post most likely, MAYBE an Russian surrogate. They just did their job and reported it.

    Bernie blaming the Post is just plain pathetic. He has no one but himself to blame because he let his ego and his weakness keep him from coming out in front of the story.

    He could have grabbed the attack bear by the schnozz and punched it in it’s tender wet nose and it would have run away in pain.  Instead he climbed a tree and hoped if he just waited for it to move away he could eventually escape it. But it was always in the bushes, watching, waiting.

    And it just got a big ole’ bite out of his ass because of it.

  109. 109.

    anarchoRex

    @MazeDancer: I hope you’re right but you’ve already had to correct a #neverbernienomatterwhat commenter in this very thread. I respect the power of spite to drive self-harming decisions.

  113. 113.

    zhena gogolia

    @Brachiator:

    No. The impeachment was about Trump’s abuse of power and obstruction of Congress.

    I guess you didn’t watch any of the Republican part of the hearings. Hours and hours of “Hunter Biden,” which then was picked up by the MSM Sunday shows after the acquittal.

  114. 114.

    zhena gogolia

    @Brachiator:

    No.

    The Russians want Trump to be reelected, just as they wanted him to be elected, because he is destroying our democracy and our society. They know that Sanders will lose to him, so they are helping Bernie win the primaries, just as they helped Sanders damage Clinton in 2016. It’s not just about “starting an argument.” It’s about keeping Trump in the White House.

  115. 115.

    WaterGirl

    @MattF:

    Russians appear to be comfortable playing both sides of an argument. Their goal is the argument.

    Absolutely true.  Division is their point – once you have the divide in place, the outcome takes care of itself.

  116. 116.

    Brachiator

    @zhena gogolia:

    I guess you didn’t watch any of the Republican part of the hearings.

    Didn’t need to. Nothing I heard or read about the GOP bullshit was worth my time.  I was more interested in the Democrats’ reasoned and principled case for why Trump should be convicted and removed from office.

    I’ve never paid much attention to the Sunday pundit shows.

    No.

    The Russians want Trump to be reelected, just as they wanted him to be elected, because he is destroying our democracy and our society. They know that Sanders will lose to him, so they are helping Bernie win the primaries, just as they helped Sanders damage Clinton in 2016. It’s not just about “starting an argument.” It’s about keeping Trump in the White House.

    The argument and the Sanders support is part of the same strategy.

  117. 117.

    germy

    @bk:  What amuses me is the difference between the sandwiches in their commercials vs. the actual product that is handed to the consumer.

    The actual subway sandwich is 90% bread and 10% meat/toppings.  The sandwich in the commercial looks like something Dagwood Bumstead would create.

  118. 118.

    glory b

    @Don Beal: Yeah, I’m always fruatrated with the people like you who think the DNC runs the party. They don’t. They manage the presidential primaries and the debates.

    They don’t control all of the things that low information folks like you think.

  119. 119.

    joel hanes

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    running for President is a pretty egotistical thing to do.

    If we grant that, will you grant in return that there’s considerable difference between Carter, (to whom I would ascribe some genuine humility, at least in areas he didn’t feel compelled to micromanage),  Truman (who had some becoming modesty), and Obama (who has some tact) on one hand, and Reagan, W/Cheney, and Trump on the other.

  121. 121.

    pamelabrown53

    @anarchoRex:

    Nah. I’m one of those people who is so angry with Bernie and many of his campaign hires that I can’t comment rationally.

    Still, I agree with Maze Dancer: if Bernie is our nominee, I’ll help in every way possible to get him elected…no matter how heavy my heart.

  123. 123.

    glory b

    @glory b: And, to paraphrase Richard Guhl in an earlier thread , BS’s theory of governance means pissing on the legs of the people he needs to enact his agenda. How will that work?

    I recall Rep. Rangel saying he never had a conversation with Bernie. Bernie lectured him, but never actually spoke to him.

  124. 124.

    WaterGirl

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:  @germy:

    I’m thinking the point is for Bloomberg to send the message “see, I’m just a regular guy, like you”.

    All the while he doesn’t eat Subway or anything like that.  He eats the high end food to which he is accustomed.  And there’s nothing wrong with that, except the arrogant hypocrisy of trying to pretend he’s something he isn’t.

  126. 126.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    @WaterGirl: Yah. It was veering off into “Subway is abominable”, which needed to be challenged. I could see mocking him for liking Subway over the bevy of wonderful delis available in NYC, but I think it’s a perfectly reasonable place to frequent when on the road.

  130. 130.

    anarchoRex

    @pamelabrown53: hey, I think I read in another thread that you recently moved to El Paso?

    If that’s you I’m remembering, I moved out here about six years ago. Welcome to El Chuco!

  131. 131.

    mrmoshpotato

    @germy: 

    Mike loves @SUBWAY – he could eat it for every meal.

    Seriously? This is the level of pandering he’s stooping to?

    Mike, just give Liz Warren all of your money and drop out before she spends the next debate verbally bashing your and Wilmer’s heads together.

  132. 132.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    @germy: Wonder how many other states have those restrictions? I remember closing many a weeknight.

  134. 134.

    Brachiator

    @glory b:

    I think he should have called for the other candidates to reveive the information, instead of sitting on it.

    In my ideal world, Sanders should have conferred with the other candidates, and all of them, including Bloomberg, would have come out with a coordinated statement condemning Russian meddling in the US election, condemning Trump for doing nothing, and promising to prosecute any Republicans in Congress who refused to pass necessary security legislation, and who continue to give aid and comfort to Putin and his allies.

  135. 135.

    J R in WV

    @japa21:

    The honorable thing for him to do would be to say. “So that there is no doubt as to whether or not I am accepting assistance from Russia, I am withdrawing my candidacy for the nomination of the Democratic Party for President.  I hereby, in order to send the strongest message possible that I condemn Russia’s actions, endorse Tulsi Gabbard.”

    Wait, WHUT????

  136. 136.

    pamelabrown53

    @anarchoRex:

    Thank you! You actually live in El Paso?! Would love to hear how you settled in, became involved.

    I have so much to learn about my new home town.

  141. 141.

    Bill Arnold

    @pamelabrown53:

    if Bernie is our nominee, I’ll help in every way possible to get him elected

    Likewise. i personally fear that difficult ethical (personal) choices will be involved. A Trump win is unacceptable for various reasons, the dominant one being the USA’s continuing role in global heating.
    Bernie Sanders really really fucked up by sitting on this information, rather than choosing a reveal with his own timing and spin.

  143. 143.

    janesays

    Well, here’s this Warren supporter’s hot take, for whatever it’s worth.

    Bernie Sanders needs to know who the fucking real enemy is… and it’s not us (Democrats).

    And we Democrats also need to know who the real fucking enemy is… and it’s not Bernie Sanders.

    The real fucking enemy is Donald J. Trump and everything he represents. Any other quarrels about anything else is way down the list of shit we should be truly freaking out about, because getting rid of Donald J. Trump is absolutely the highest priority we have.

    She says it far better than me…

    @AmandaMarcotte

    While we’re all getting bent out of shape because of a dumb, chest-thumping tweet, the real enemies of democracy, Trump and the GOP, are trying to cover up an effort by Russia to help them steal the election. Just a thought.

  144. 144.

    Brachiator

    @mrmoshpotato:

    “I’m voting for Bloomberg because he’s someone I’d like to have lunch with.”

    I would love it if Bloomberg were to treat me to a big, expensive lunch. Probably even have a nice conversation.

    I would still vote for someone else.

  145. 145.

    janesays

    I believe the real goal of the Russians with regard to Bernie Sanders is not for him to be the nominee because they actually want him to become our president, but rather for him to become the nominee with us knowing they are meddling on his behalf so it divides us all hopelessly, to increase Trump’s odds of being re-elected. If Sanders becomes the nominee and somebody refuses to vote for him because they’re so disgusted by the whole thing – they would be giving Vladimir Putin EXACTLY what he wants.

    If you don’t vote for the Democratic nominee in November no matter what, you are doing Putin’s bidding.

  146. 146.

    pamelabrown53

    @anarchoRex:

    So true. Just let me know how best to discuss this with you…if you’re amenable.

    Otherwise, I can just invite you to my house for some tapas and wine.

  147. 147.

    zhena gogolia

    @janesays:

    Yeah, Sanders always gets a pass. Not from me. It’s not simply “dumb.” As I said earlier, Sanders is many things but he’s not dumb.

  148. 148.

    David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch

    Every member of the “Democratic Establishment” just voted to impeach and remove Dump (except Sanders’s running mate Tulsi Gabbard).   Every member of the republican establisment (except 1) vote to defend his impeachable offenses.

    To equate the two is disqualifying.

    Moreover, the response is even more disturbing than Dump’s conspiracy theory about “the Deep State”.

  149. 149.

    MisterForkbeard

    @janesays: I like to think I can call Bernie an asshole who needs to stop being hostile towards the party he wants to lead AND note that Republicans are the real problem.

    S’why I’ll vote for him happily and without reservation in the General and also work hard against him in the Primary.

  150. 150.

    cokane

    @tam1MI: Seeing more and more of this at BJ. And frankly, you’re just showing that you’re no better than a petulant “bro” who did the same thing in 2016

  153. 153.

    janesays

    @tam1MI: In other words, if Bernie is the nominee, you plan to do exactly what Vladimir Putin wants you to do.

    Cool. Glad to know where you stand.

  157. 157.

    David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch

    @janesays: @cokane:  No, leaving the ballot blank would be far, far different then what Sanders’s top people (Nina Turner, Susan Sarandon, Cornell West, Sirota, Briahna Joy Gray) did which was openly advocate for Jill Stein and Dump.

  158. 158.

    Brachiator

    As MattF previously noted

    Russians appear to be comfortable playing both sides of an argument. Their goal is the argument.

    Trump’s big lie, put out by his own staff, is that claims that Russia loves Trump are false, but evidence that Russia loves Bernie are absolutely true.  Moscow rules.

    President Donald Trump’s National Security Advisor was blasted online on Saturday for a smear against Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) while Nevada Democrats were caucusing to choose the DNC’s 2020 presidential nominee.

    Josh Dawsey, White House reporter for The Washington Post, broke news on Saturday about what Robert O’Brien said in an interview to air on Sunday.

    — National security adviser Robert O’Brien tells ABC in interview to air tomorrow that he hasn’t seen any evidence of Russia seeking to help Trump. Asked whether Russia might be helping Sanders, he says reports could be credible. “That’s no surprise. He honeymooned in Moscow.”

     

    Trumps’ well known ties to Russia and praise of Putin does not matter, but Sanders’ honeymoon is proof of being anti-American.

    ETA: I wondered how they might do some of this, and now I have an answer.  Trump’s lackey doesn’t say that Sanders has “ties to the Soviet Union,” which no longer exists. It is that he has “ties to Moscow.”

    I think, however, that Trump played his hand too soon. Now we see what a big piece of the anti-Sanders GOP effort will look like.

  162. 162.

    janesays

    @David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch:

    Where did I say that leaving the ballot blank would be as bad as using one’s status as a public figure to promote voting third party or for Trump?

    Nowhere.

    But refusing to vote for the Democratic nominee, while quite obviously not anywhere near as bad as voting for a third party candidate or for Trump or openly advocating for people to vote for a third party candidate or for Trump, is indisputably harmful to the effort to remove Trump from office. And anything which is indisputably harmful to removing Trump from office is simultaneously indisputably helpful to keeping him office. Because math.

  163. 163.

    zhena gogolia

    @janesays:

    I think a lot of us feel that once Sanders is the nominee, the battle is lost. I guess I’ll vote for him despite his being a Russian asset, but it won’t make much difference, since he will lose. And he will lose us Congress as well.

  165. 165.

    zhena gogolia

    @janesays:

    He’s pernicious and evil. If he weren’t, he would drop out right now and throw his support to one of the other candidates. But he’s incapable of that.

  168. 168.

    zhena gogolia

    It is so depressing to me that so many Democrats who have the great privilege of voting in primaries that actually matter are voting for Sanders rather than one of the other, far superior candidates. I guess we deserve what we get. But I don’t.

  169. 169.

    zhena gogolia

    @janesays:

    Uh, no, this is based on Sanders being a terrible candidate. He’s old, he just had a heart attack (which he concealed for several days), he’s repulsive, and he’s never accomplished anything but losing us the 2016 election. Not to mention all the skeletons in his closet like essays on the joys of rape, that will be all over the MSM the moment he becomes the nominee.

  171. 171.

    janesays

    @zhena gogolia: When in the entire history of America has it been rational to expect any candidate who is indisputably ahead of every other candidate in a presidential nomination contest to drop out of the race?

    Should he have dropped out in 2016 after Super Tuesday? Hell yes. And he was an asshole for sticking around after that.

    Would I have preferred he not even run in 2020? Absolutely.

    But he’s here now. And as of this minute, he’s the frontrunner. And unless two or three of the other candidates drop out before Super Tuesday, he’s probably going to be the nominee. Nobody in his position has ever been expected to drop out of the race before.

  173. 173.

    janesays

    @zhena gogolia: If you think Sanders is singularly to blame for us losing the 2016 election, then there’s no point in continuing this conversation, because that’s beyond irrational. Of course he hurt us in 2016. But he was far from the only cause of that disaster, or even the primary cause (James Comey says hello).

  175. 175.

    cokane

    @zhena gogolia: Sanders is overwhelmingly liked within the party. The fact that this seems to surprise people on BJ just shows that a lot of people on here are living insular political lives.

  176. 176.

    zhena gogolia

    @cokane:

    Да, да, очень интересно. Он такой популярный человек! Просто изумительно!

  181. 181.

    Chris Johnson

    @David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch: Slow ya roll. It’s not yet established that Gabbard is Sanders’ preferred running mate.

    I think you’re just riffing on people like me who are ready to say that IF HE DID pick Gabbard, it’d be a dead giveaway that it’s not a real election: just Putin against Putin. Though now that it’s out in the open (a) he’s less likely to make such a move even if he’d been planning that, and (b) the pair of ’em wouldn’t exactly be in a strong position to do stuff other than rubberstamp Dem wishes. Sooooo, maybe not as much of a dealbreaker even then.

    Slow your roll. He hasn’t said Gabbard is his VP pick, far as I know.

  182. 182.

    janesays

    @MomSense: Responding to cokane’s comment with some Russian gibberish is EXACTLY the sort of immature behavior obnoxious Bernie Bros exhibited when it started to dawn on them that Hillary was probably going to be the nominee in 2016. It was stupid of them then, and it’s stupid of us now.

    We don’t become better than Bernie Bros by taking on their ugliest traits.

  184. 184.

    cokane

    @MomSense: I’ve been reading this blog since the W Bush days. It used to be much more sane than it’s now become. Though most of the people on here still seem pretty reasonable.

    But there’s clearly a tiny subset that is very much out of tune with the majority of the rest of the party’s base when it comes to Sanders. Polling consistently shows that he is well liked in the party, is popular among racial minorities in the party. I’m sorry that some of you can’t see his appeal. As well, the election results are showing it. But again, that just means your viewpoint is a tiny fraction of the party.

  185. 185.

    zhena gogolia

    @janesays:

    No one here seems to notice that Bernie’s “popularity” has been enhanced greatly by Russian active measures. I thought a reply in Russian to the question of his “popularity” was entirely appropriate.

  189. 189.

    janesays

    @zhena gogolia: In what specific way has his popularity been enhanced by Russian measures?

    No, I’m not denying the IC report that Russia wants to game things for Sanders. I’m asking you to specifically point to the element of this Russian interference – whatever it is – that is causing Bernie to be more popular than he actually is?

  190. 190.

    Elizabelle

    Cokane and janesays:

    You two are very disagreeable and strident.  I am muting you, with the pie filter, for a while.  Cannot abide your bad faith comments and want to avoid any triumphalism from either of you tonight.

  191. 191.

    MisterForkbeard

    @A Ghost To Most: Sanders is very disliked in Congress (from most of the anecdata we have), but he IS reasonably well liked within the party: 71% favorability, 17% unfavored from the last poll I looked at.

    That 71 is the highest amongst the candidates and the 17% is the second lowest. So he does seem to be pretty popular within democratic voters, odd as that seems to me.

  193. 193.

    hitchhiker

    @janesays:

    he’s the frontrunner.

    He has the enthusiastic support of about a third of the party. He’s the frontrunner for the same reason trump was — because his opposition was divided.

    While there is still a primary, those of us who see him as a terrible candidate who would not be a good president are under no obligation to pretend otherwise.

    I had dinner a couple of nights ago with some very good friends who are Sanders fans. I have a hard time listening to them enthuse over this person who is, to me, almost the worst thing that could happen right now. These aren’t stupid people, but they’re just informed enough to have heard all manner of conspiracy nonsense, especially about the 2016 election. I’m guessing that a whole lot of Sanders fans are like them.

    If he gets nominated, I’ll vote for him because there is no other choice, but today, while there is still a choice, he’s just above Tulsi Gabbard on my list.

  194. 194.

    columbusqueen

    @Ksmiami: Yep.  My whole family mostly despises Sanders, & we’ve been working class Dems for over 100 years.  We’ve heard his BS before, especially my aunt who graduated in ’67.  Color us not impressed.

  195. 195.

    J R in WV

    @Don Beal:

    I support Sanders because the Democratic party needs a big change in direction that will not occur with the DNC that exists now.

    So you want the DNC replaced by the American Soviet Politburo then? Really? The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics did such a good job of winning the Cold War, and bringing their people out of the 1800s into the 21st century.

    Right?

    Right!!

  196. 196.

    J R in WV

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:

    Subway is still better than any of the other options around here.

    We have an outlet called Steak Escape, which grills beef, chicken, ham or turkey with onions, peppers, mushrooms, etc. Puts it all on a roll with cheese, lettuce, tomatoes, mayo and a wide variety of options. Their fries are pre cooked, then fried again, wonderful stuff.

    When wife is with me, we get a medium and share it, by myself I get a small with a regular fry. They also have malt vinegar which I add liberally to the ketchup for the fries. A great lunch!!

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