There’s a large evangelical complex off I-75 in Tampa that I’ve passed by in transit occasionally for several years. I knew nothing about it but have always assumed it was grift enterprise because megachurch and because of its propensity to plaster its married couple co-pastors’ faces all over area billboards. Turns out those charitable assumptions were far too kind. Via The Tampa Bay Times:
Tampa church holds packed service, draws warning from Sheriff’s Office
The River at Tampa Bay Church’s pastor claims that the church has a right to practice free speech and to freely assemble.
TAMPA — Scores of worshipers gathered at a Tampa megachurch for service on Sunday, drawing a warning from the Hillsborough County Sheriff’s Office about violating the safer-at-home order in place to limit the spread of coronavirus…
“I know that they’re trying to beat me up, you know, having the church operational, but we are not a non-essential service,” Rodney Howard-Browne said at the start of the Sunday morning sermon. He claimed the church is “covered by the law.”
“Not only the right of free speech but the right to peaceful assembly and to practice what we believe,” he said. “Suddenly we are demonized because we believe God heals, that the Lord sets people free, and they make us out to be some sort of kooks.”
Yeah, that’s because you are a bunch of kooks, Typhoid Reverend.
You’ll be unsurprised to learn that this same kooky preacher was one of the pack of prosperity gospel grifters invited to the White House to “lay hands” on Donald Trump, shares the Shitgibbon’s affinity for InfoWars, gun nuttery, climate change denial and perpetrating fraud on poor people.
This country was founded by religious zealots, and as a result, our laws and our customs are far too accommodating to dangerously stupid/evil hucksters like Howard-Browne. They should be taxed like any other business and prosecuted when they rip people off. And newspapers shouldn’t fail to include the relevant context (i.e., mention the thievery and crackpottery) when these organizations make news.
Open thread.
Jeffery
Imagine how happy Europe was when all the extreme religious nuts set sail for the Americas.
Ohio Mom
I am not a historian but am under the impression that while many of the earliest settlers might have been religious zealots (e.g., the Puritans, Spanish missionaries), the Founding Father’s themselves were on the skeptical side.
For one, Jefferson going through the New Testament, trying to determine what the historical Jesus might have said versus the words put in his mouth. That’s a pretty dispassionate way of looking at Christianity.
zhena gogolia
Meanwhile our little liberal protestant church has been meeting virtually for three weeks. We get YouTube videos of sermons and musical numbers, and we meet for prayers via Zoom. Everyone shares news of people who need help. We provided hand sanitizer to the local halfway house, and we’re continuing to support the local foodbank. The mayor of our little town attended last week’s session. We don’t get a lot of publicity, though. But I’m sure there are thousands of churches just like us all across the country.
Gin & Tonic
While faith is a personal thing, which I do not judge, and has been the source of transcendent beauty (cf. J.S. Bach) it is simply historical fact that organized religion has been responsible for as much death and destruction as war and pestilence have.
Hungry Joe
My two Bernie Bro relatives are now informing me that Biden, in addition to being a senile, warmongering corporatist, has now been shown to be a rapist. They declare that neither they (nor their two sons) will vote for him, under any circumstances. Only Bernie is true, only Bernie can save us.
Note: They’re in a key swing state.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jeffery: They didn’t.
MattF
Note that the pastor slipped ‘God heals’ in there. The grift never pauses, always be closing.
Omnes Omnibus
@Gin & Tonic: Do you account for deaths in religious wars as war or religion?
dww44
Betty, I’ve been waiting for this post from you ever since I saw video of the service and people standing close to each other, and the Reverend’s opining. Was that only yesterday? Seems a lifetime ago already. Love the title of the piece. Please do keep us informed if and when there’s reporting about how those attended are faring.
Gin & Tonic
@Omnes Omnibus: Yes.
Roger Moore
I think this is hiding a much bigger problem: our constitution was written over 200 years ago at a time when democratic government was considered to be a great experiment, and it has received only the mildest of updates since then. It has a lot of stuff baked into it that might have made sense to people making guesses about how to make democracy work, but it really ought to do a better job of taking into account the 200+ years of experience we’ve learned since then.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Hungry Joe: the need to make Biden evil, instead of a politician they disagree with, is amazing, and a little scary.
speaking of religious fanatics….
catclub
@MattF: What about Time wounds all heels?
Ohio Mom
Since this is an open thread, I am taking this opportunity to complain about Ohio
Son’s environmental science class homework.
He’s been turning the thermostat down a few degrees each week as an exercise in saving energy.
I don’t mind the other parts of this assignment, which includes things like turning off lights obsessively and eating meatless severally days a week, but 63 degrees is too cold!
It’s not getting above 57 today so going outside to warm up is not an option. And I have six more days of this before this experiment is over. Brrr.
Miss Bianca
@Hungry Joe: I am trying, really hard, not to get into it with the Bernie Bros I know online. Because it’s futile. But damn, I wish someone would just bring the wood to Sanders already.
waspuppet
@zhena gogolia: Yeah, my anecdotal observation has been that REAL houses of worship understand. It’s the preachers who have private-jet payments to keep up who are screaming about religious freedom.
Sebastian
@MattF:
Ya know, I am slowly starting not to give a shit anymore. I was always of the opinion that you excessive warning labels only lead to idiots living longer than they should and a dangerous dilution to common sense such as don’t use electric appliances in the bathtub.
This might just lead to a bunch of gullible shitheads dying off and no longer reposting climate change and vaccination denial on Facebook. This might literally be the Ark Fleet Ship B scenario, sans the sanitizers.
Just Chuck
I’ve always said, most of the Berniebros would have been LaRouchies a couple decades ago. They don’t give a shit about the politics, they just want a license to be the assholes they are.
Citizen Alan
@Just Chuck: I’m stealin’ this.
WaterGirl
@Ohio Mom: Yeah, exactly what people need to do right now in order to be in the best shape possible to fight the virus if you get it, is to be constantly chilled in their own homes.
I would be calling the school.
Omnes Omnibus
@Sebastian: Yeah, but the disease isn’t limited to the morons. People at that church could work at the pharmacy (etc.) that someone else has no choice but to visit.
Roger Moore
@Sebastian:
The problem is those idiots aren’t just hurting themselves. A pandemic is everyone’s problem, and people who get themselves sick by doing something stupid will make things worse for the rest of us. They’ll take up valuable space in hospitals, infect people who tried to isolate themselves, etc. There’s a reason we talk about public health rather than personal health when it comes to pandemics.
Geminid
When Reverend Howard-Brown and those other nutty preachers prayed over and laid hands on Trump they were just carrying on the Pentecostal tradition of snake handling.
Geminid
My apologies to snakes everywhere.
Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
Speaking of zealots……I need some SERIOUS advice.
My son’s father is a Trump supporter loon. He literally thinks this whole pandemic is overblown by the media. He believes that this will be no worse than the Swine Flu and the media is blowing it way out of proportion so that it will hurt Trump. He REALLY believes this to the point that he is ignoring all calls for social distancing and when he has my 9 yo on the weekends takes him all over the place. I just found out that he let my son play basketball with a bunch of strange kids in a park this past weekend. His dad keeps telling me that our son will be fine…”probably won’t even show symptoms”. Meanwhile I’ve been working from home and socially isolating with my kids because my 16 yo has severe asthma and her immune system has been compromised lately with other illnesses. My poor 16 yo hasn’t been anywhere but my house and her dad’s house who is also being VERY careful to keep her safe (working from home, only going out for essentials). So he’s undoing all of our efforts to keep them safe. I’ve tried over and over and over again to explain to him that even IF our son doesn’t get real sick my 16 yo could die from it. Her grandmother, who is immuno compromised and has COPD, could die from it. But he simply won’t listen because he’s a stupid nutcase.
So my question is this….he’s supposed to get my son again this Thursday evening for the weekend. I want to tell him that he can’t have my son because he refuses to follow social distancing procedures. He’s literally endangering all of our lives and I don’t know how to stop it except to tell him he can’t have his kid. Even if he says he will keep him away from others, he’d probably just lie about it so he could shut me up and see him. I don’t trust him to be responsible. What can he do if I refuse to allow him his time? He doesn’t have the money to hire an attorney (and neither do I, really). Can he call the cops on me? HELP!?
patrick II
Taxing is important. Where there is no tax and there is compound interest, money flows to the path of least resistance and accumulates. There will be people more interested in profitable business than saving souls. Well organized religions get rich, and any accumulation of money and power means they will become political to keep that money and power. We are subsidizing large scale and politically powerful irrationality.
Al Z.
Darwin wept.
WereBear
Fundamentalist Christians are all cultists. Anti-modernism, devoted to black and white binary thinking, Authoritarian Leaders or Followers; they have been praying for a Trump, and now they have one.
Of course they will double down when threatened. That’s what they do.
A Ghost to Most
I, for one welcome and encourage large and intimate meetings of as many of these folks as possible.
Then lock the doors from the outside.
Sebastian
@Roger Moore:
I hear ya and it’s really my frustration speaking. For decades we’ve been trying to convince these idiots: HIV, immigration, taxation, environmental laws, labor protection, fossil fuels and climate change, you name it.
It might just be the time to bunker down and let the morons infect each other and die. And by the look of things there isn’t much we can do to prevent them from executing this anyway.
MattF
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ: You’re probably not the only person with this problem. Look for help, advice, and friends.
MomSense
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ:
Damn. Is there an attorney or agency that you could call and get a free consult? Can you call your pediatrician and get her/him to tell the dad s/he wants the kids to shelter in your place- and explain why letting your son play basketball was reckless?
Boris Rasputin (the evil twin)
Funny, these idiots scream they’re being persecuted, but it’s God’s work if they protest at a Planned Parenthood, or shriek about gay people, etc.
I hope Robin Williams was right, that when Pat Robinson dies, he finds the God looks like Isaac Hayes and ain’t taking no shit from him.
Sebastian
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ:
I’ve had the same problem which resolved itself (for now) but I did extensive research.
In a nutshell: you can refuse to give the kid to him and you would be in violation of the custodial court order. However, the courts are closed now (at least in California) or operating very limited so he would have to wait until this all is over to file a motion. You will have to face the judge at some point though. This is not legal advice but child endangerment is usually not looked upon benevolently so your chances might not be too bad.
The cops can’t do anything as they cannot enforce civil matters, only criminal.
Please check with a local lawyer and as always keep copious notes and evidence.
L85NJGT
@Just Chuck:
Or Ron Paul zealots.
Post Bernie, who are the likely candidates to be the next angry old man
speaking truth to powerenabling asshole behaviors?RepubAnon
@MattF: Faith will protect you? That’s what the Iranian ayatollahs said – didn’t work in practice. Same for that South Korean church.
I expect massive COVID19 spread from this guy’s church, and Liberty University. God’s punishment for failing to use the brains God gave them…
germy
BobS
@Gin & Tonic: A few years ago, my wife and I were driving through the western Upper Peninsula (of Michigan). There’s a lot of old mining towns where you’ll find just a couple of non-abandoned buildings- a church and a bar, leading me to wonder out loud, what had fucked up more lives? Alcohol or religion?
Great title to the post, by the way.
Sebastian
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ:
One more thing: try to get him to admit in writing that he doesn’t care if you guys get COVID or even wishes you get it. As of recently this is being prosecuted as bioterrorism. Very drastic step but keep it in your backpocket.
Betty Cracker
@Roger Moore: I agree with that. Maybe it’s because we’ve fetishized our founders and constitution to an absurd degree. I think the founders were right that the US Constitution shouldn’t be easy to change, but they probably didn’t envision that we’d cling to provisions that are demonstrably harmful, outdated and/or antidemocratic as if it were holy writ. IIRC, every other mature democracy has overhauled their constitution far more extensively than we have.
BobS
@Ohio Mom: “I am taking this opportunity to complain about Ohio”- welcome to Michigan’s world.
Miss Bianca
@Sebastian:
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ:
Check in with the state’s DHS? Oh, wait, AZ…there’s no official “shelter in place” policy there, is there?
delk
Howard-Browne is a massive homophobe. So it cracks me that Howard Brown was a founder of the National Gay Task Force (now the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force) and a former New York City Health Services Administrator, helped change the image of gay men and lesbians in the United States by coming out publicly in 1973. Howard Brown Health Center is the Chicago LGBT health service.
germy
Okay, that’s it. I’m joining.
Except watching the clip, I saw a bunch of electric guitars on the stage behind the pastor. So this is one of those church services I’d need to bring ear plugs to (in addition to full hazmat suit).
A few years back, these megachurch types decided loud “rock” music was the way to bring in the crowds, even though they spent decades calling it the Devil’s music.
patrick II
There is a story at TPM dated today (march 30) that Jerry Falwell Jr. still insists that his students attend his college, Freedom University, at Lynchburg, VA. The NYT reports that three students have been sent to the hospital with coronavirus symptoms and that 12 total had displayed some symptoms. Nine students were supposed to self-isolate but at least some returned to their dorms. Falwell denies the existence of the illnesses.
They are fucking kids, and while probably most will live through it, Falwell should go to jail. If Lynchburg is smart and closes its restaurants and other gathering places (I won’t say bars, it is Freedom University after all) the kids will be stuck on campus together. The good thing is that while they are all kept together they are not allowed to have sex. I am sure that will be honored. Not even kissing.
Hungry Joe
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ: This is a life-and-death situation, and it’s happening NOW. I’d refuse to allow him to see the boy, and take my chances with the law later.
trollhattan
Nice.
And when somebody sues the “church” because Me-maw done got the corona there they’ll claim religious immunity from the courts, which are the devil’s work even in Florida. Now pass Mister Rattles over here.
Barbara
By now everyone has probably heard of the chorale in Washington State, in Skagit, where 45 out of 60 members who showed up for choir rehearsal later tested positive for the virus. Two have died, and several are still being hospitalized. They were “careful” not to hug or touch and used hand sanitizer. One theory is that singing forcefully likely created more contact than they realized. The other is that it can be spread by far smaller molecules (aerosolized) than previously understood. People packing a church and not even trying to maintain distance are obviously playing with fire and trying to make a point. Meanwhile, my neighborhood chat board is filled with hectoring scolds. It’s going to bring out the worst in a lot of people — people who aren’t scared and should be and people who are scared and think it gives them license to berate others.
Betty Cracker
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ: Would it be possible to document the ex’s depraved indifference to the danger electronically, i.e., bring it up via text or email and discuss it at length that way rather than in a voice conversation so you have a record? I’m not a lawyer, but I am a mom, and I’d feel the same way you do were I in your shoes. God, what an asshole. Best of luck.
Sebasian
@Barbara:
Thank God there is no singing in churches, right?
trollhattan
@patrick II:
Virginia, the only Confederate state to vote Hillary, seems to not deserve this Falwell pestilence. Can they kick them out?
trollhattan
@Sebasian:
Singing can lead to [shudder] dancing.
Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
@Miss Bianca: No, official order in AZ….so I don’t have any authority in that regard.
patrick II
@Barbara:
I am with the license to berate others group. These people are spreading disease in spite of warnings by doctors. I am 72 years old, and they might kill me. A little berating is more than deserved and even necessary.
trollhattan
@germy:
Even if “The Righteous Gemstones” is a little over the top I suspect it’s more documentary than fiction.
Denali
A mega church in France held services for all, and 2500 of the participants have tested positive. Now do the exponential math. These people should be arrested.
germy
Hey, who called the cops?
Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
@Betty Cracker: I already have the text history on my phone. My begging him to keep him away from others and his flat out refusing.
@Sebastian: Okay, thanks for the advice. I called a lawyer but even if the courts are open, I sincerely doubt that anything can be done quickly. They have much bigger fish to fry right now.
Barbara
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ: I assume that you are communicating mostly by phone. Either record your conversations or start communicating by text or email and keep a record. You want to establish two things:
If you can only get pieces of this, like him promising to maintain distancing, and then you finding out that he didn’t, ask your son to document what they did. Then send a follow up to your ex that you know he has lied.
The problem is that you are concerned RIGHT NOW, so I would try to get this documented before the next visit so your daughter doesn’t continue to be at risk.
Jeffro
The Cult of trumpov is a Threat to Us All
Shorter: calling it ‘partisanship’ is like saying ‘both sides’
How about “believing in trumpov over science will get you killed”? “trumpov cult = death cult”? “Drink the kool-aid already, trumpov cultists”? Something like that?
Ten Bears
Ah yes, come for the religious nutballery leave for the Bernie Bashing.
Jeffro
@trollhattan: We’d love to, believe me.
Jeffro
@Hungry Joe: Seconded here.
Barbara
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ: The only missing piece is his awareness of the heightened risks to your daughter. If he has blown that off as well, I don’t think you need anything else. Of course it’s a risk, but given the relative risks, it’s probably worth taking.
Shakti
On one hand, I’m rooting for injuries. On the other hand, these people will go out into the community and spread covid-19 to people outside their congregation.
I don’t know what their burning urge is to have services and violate the safer-at-home order. It’s not like they couldn’t pass the [metaphorical] collection plate around to get a supercharged version of Zoom with great production values.
I’ve missed Holi and Ugadi (New Year) at my temple because the priests are not fucking around with Covid-19. If you’re Jewish it’s going to mess with Passover. I don’t know why these are the only people bleating about freedom of religion and assembly as if they’re some special martyrs.
Just Chuck
@Barbara: Singing for an hour or two is likely to spread any germ through the air, yes. And choirs are always packed together.
JanieM
@Ohio Mom: I keep my thermostat at about 64 all winter, plus I let it drop considerably overnight. But I wear several layers of shirts all winter, including a fairly heavy hoodie most of the time. (I live in Maine.)
Most relevant to your son’s experiment – it’s very hard to acclimate to a cooler house suddenly. Even after decades of doing this, I work into it gradually in the late fall. Plus, I used to keep the indoor temp as low as 60, but the older I get the less I can tolerate keeping it that cold.
The teacher has a lot of nerve assuming that whole families will want to, or should, accommodate this little experiment. As much as I’m worried about climate change, little tin pot dictator-zealots aren’t doing us any favors either.
And what are they supposed to figure out from this? It’s not like it’s easy to figure out how your fuel usage changes unless you’ve kept statistics for a long time……
germy
Just Chuck
@L85NJGT: Oh for sure. He totally slipped my mind, never really having the staying power LaRouche had. I suspect most of the Paulites are Infowars types now though.
As for the next guy? Dunno, but I guarantee he’ll be white.
MattF
@Ohio Mom: And you’ll know the temperature at which you start to shiver. Stay warm instead.
trollhattan
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ:
Is there legal precedent in the wake of the AIDS crisis, when HIV-positive people were having unprotected sex w/o informing their partners? Were there legal consequences or remedies for those situations?
Hard to imagine somebody acting so casually about this. Depraved indifference comes to mind.
Miss Bianca
@Ten Bears: Don’t let the virtual door hit you on your virtual ass.
Just Chuck
@Shakti:
Because it’s a day ending in ‘y’
Elizabelle
@Barbara: Coming here to post that very story. What the Florida and Louisiana church congregations have in store for them. Especially with the singing and sermonizing and worshiping, loudly.
The choir in Washington State practiced on March 10th. Three days later, several members recall they started fevers. On Day five, one member noticed she’d lost her sense of smell.
But no one reported it to the county public health office until March 17, which then did contact tracing but … too long an interval.
LA Times:
Choir practice turns fatal. Airborne coronavirus strongly suspected
The virus was already killing people in the Seattle area, about an hour’s drive to the south.
But Skagit County hadn’t reported any cases, schools and businesses remained open, and prohibitions on large gatherings had yet to be announced.
… [So, the Skagit Valley Chorale held its choir practice on March 10, at Mount Vernon Presbyterian Church]. Sixty singers showed up.
… Nearly three weeks later, 45 have been diagnosed with COVID-19 or ill with the symptoms, at least three have been hospitalized, and two are dead.
The outbreak has stunned county health officials, who have concluded that the virus was almost certainly transmitted through the air from one or more people without symptoms.
“That’s all we can think of right now,” said Polly Dubbel, a county communicable disease and environmental health manager.
…. Experts said the choir outbreak is consistent with a growing body of evidence that the virus can be transmitted through aerosols — particles smaller than 5 micrometers that can float in the air for minutes or longer.
The World Health Organization has downplayed the possibility of transmission in aerosols, stressing that the virus is spread through much larger “respiratory droplets,” which are emitted when an infected person coughs or sneezes and quickly fall to a surface.
But a study published March 17 in the New England Journal of Medicine found that when the virus was suspended in a mist under laboratory conditions it remained “viable and infectious” for three hours — though researchers have said that time period would probably be no more than a half-hour in real-world conditions.
One of the authors of that study, Jamie Lloyd-Smith, a UCLA infectious disease researcher, said it’s possible that the forceful breathing action of singing dispersed viral particles in the church room that were widely inhaled.
“One could imagine that really trying to project your voice would also project more droplets and aerosols,” he said.
With three-quarters of the choir members testing positive for the virus or showing symptoms of infection, the outbreak would be considered a “super-spreading event,” he said.
Barbara
@Just Chuck: They tried to stay at least three feet apart. But I agree with you. Their memory of what they “tried” to do is probably crowding out the times that they were less than three feet apart, and, of course, singing forcefully would definitely spread more droplets than just breathing or even talking.
Elizabelle
@Just Chuck: The Washington state chorale tried to practice social distancing; took their own music, no hugs, hand sanitizer, etc. But it did not work for them. County health is trying to reconstruct who was sitting/standing where, because 15 members escaped contagion — so far.
More from the LA Times story about the Skagit County Chorale (link above):
Marr, the Virginia Tech researcher, said that the choir outbreak reminded her of a classic case study in the spread of infectious disease.
In 1977, an Alaska Airlines flight returned to Homer, Alaska, after experiencing engine trouble and sat on the tarmac there for four hours with the ventilation system off.
Of the 49 passengers on board, 35 developed flu symptoms and five were hospitalized. Researchers ultimately traced the outbreak to a woman who felt fine when she boarded but later became ill.
The case jolted epidemiologists into the realization that influenza could spread through the air.
Research has already shown that the coronavirus is nearly twice as contagious as influenza and far more deadly.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
It’s amazing the Evangelicals are going there with the science denial, they are overwhelmingly in the high risk category if they get ill. This is the first time I’ve seen them risking lives like this.
Elizabelle
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: Apparently the Lord knew what he was dealing with when he kept referring to them as “sheep.”
I think some pastors/leaders should face criminal charges for depraved indifference and even manslaughter, after the fact.
ziggy
@Barbara: By now everyone has probably heard of the chorale in Washington State
Just read about that, I think it gives a very powerful argument for wearing masks in public. I suspect a high proportion of Covid carriers are going to turn out to be asymptomatic if we ever start testing everyone (like in Iceland). Thus if it is aerosolized (sp?) social distancing won’t be enough.
Barbara
@patrick II: If I go to the grocery store I don’t want someone on my neighborhood chat board scolding me. I’m not coming anywhere near them. I realize some people are at higher risk than others. To some extent, people who feel they are at higher risk are going to have to do more to self-isolate. In recognition of that, my neighborhood has a sign up list for those who are willing to shop and run errands for others. That’s a constructive response. Yelling at people because they are shopping for food isn’t.
LivingInExile
Eng!and shipped their religious nuts to the American colonies and their criminals to Australia. I think Australia got the better end of that deal.
Elizabelle
Have to say, I teared up a little at seeing the USNS Comfort sailing into New York Harbor. It’s a refitted tanker. Docked now. Used in aftermath of 9/11 too. Now needed in NYC again, after 11/9 strikes.
NY Post link.
MattF
@Elizabelle: Yikes. Consider also that the likelihood that no more than one or two people who were already infected attended the rehearsal.
Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
@Sebastian: I would say “let them” get sick as well. EXCEPT what about the kids? Like my son, they aren’t really choosing to go to places….their parents are taking them, many of them probably kicking and screaming because sitting still and listening to some old man preach about how they’re gonna burn in hell is not exactly fun for little kids (and I speak from very real personal experience being raised Southern Baptist).
Geminid
@patrick II: The reporting on Fallwell Jr. and Liberty U. has been interesting. The university seems to be trying to stiff students and parents on rebates for room and board. The invitation for students to return may have been in order to set up a “you had the option to return” argument for denying rebates. Jerry Falwell Jr. has an estimated wealth of $100millon.
Zinsky
Betty – Although I love the Tampa area, there are some mouth-breathing, knuckle-draggers in the area (usually in large, noisy, pollution-spewing pick-ups), who are somewhere between scary and obnoxious. I suspect they attend church services at The River if they aren’t picking up roadkill for dinner. We should ignore and stay far away from these creatures and allow Darwinian consequences (i.e. a mass die-off) to occur. Amply funded public education is one of the long-term cures that Florida needs to implement.
Elizabelle
@germy: Trump is finally helpful WRT voting rights. Unwittingly, but we will take it.
That news will get drowned out for now in COVID19 coverage, but that needs to play in heavy rotation once we come up for (literal) air.
Boris Rasputin (the evil twin)
@Shakti: Ah, they ARE special martyrs, you see. And they’re willing to die/get other people killed for their beliefs. Part of the package.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ:
Disclosure: I’ve primarily practiced family law in Kentucky for over 30 years, but do not have an Arizona license. That said, this sort of thing has been arising a lot, and our courts are, in the main, shut down except for certain statutorily-mandated proceedings with hard deadlines and emergencies.
The Chief Justice of the Kentucky Supreme Court has been working diligently to make his emergency directives match the facts on the ground, and issued a clarification Friday that custody/visitation orders are to be generally followed, but that some departure can be expected due to shifting circumstances, and that litigants are expected to demonstrate patience and sound judgment. In the event that a party isn’t turning over a child, electronic communication is to be extensive with the nonpossessory parent.
Were I representing you, I’d seek a firm written commitment from the ex regarding social distancing; if he were unwilling to do it, I’d advise withholding, and then let the courts sort it out later.
Scout211
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ:
Not an attorney, but a retired mental health profession with many clients over the years with custody disputes and family issues like yours.
Things may be different in your state, but here in California, the custody mediators and courts do not respond well to taking actions on your own to defy a custody agreement. Even if you feel you are in the right, there is always another side of the story that can and will be looked at as objectively as possible by the courts.
Please call a family attorney and have that attorney write a letter to your ex. That attorney can write the letter in a manner that is legal and professional and will be more effective right now.
Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
@LivingInExile: You’re forgetting that 50,000 convicts were sent to the American Colonies under the system of indentured servitude, most of whom landed in MD and VA, IIRC. And the state of Georgia was used a penal colony. So plenty of convicts were sent to America as well.
Kelly
@Betty Cracker:
The whole “the Founders believed” is BS that founders on the simple fact that they were diverse and argumentative thinkers that changed their minds as events unfolded.
Elizabelle
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ: Skyping was made for this situation.
I hope all of you pull through safely. The ex- is being reckless, and Le Comte from Kentucky already gave you some great advice in comment 89. Stand your ground there.
Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
@Scout211:
Thank you for the advice. I will try to get a written promise from him as soon as possible and if I can’t get that, I’ve called an attorney who can maybe draft a letter. I have the history of the text exchanges so there is already proof of a refusal to be reasonable on his part.
Barbara
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ: Unfortunately, the fact that Arizona itself has been dragging its feet does not help you. If you were in a jurisdiction where your husband were defying the orders of the governor, then it would be easier for you to establish the reasonableness of your actions.
Just One More Canuck
@JanieM:
How much you save (either in $ or usage) depends on weather, age of the furnace, how well your house is insulated, etc, so it’s hard to see what conclusions can be drawn from Ohio Kid’s experiment. Also, since the family is (presumably) home more because of the virus, usage is going to be completely different than it would have been under normal circumstances.
Up here in Ontario, the utilities provide a one-year history of usage on each bill, so assuming you keep them for a while, or have access to them online, it would probably be a pretty easy exercise to show much money you’d save for each percentage change in usage. I think (not certain) that our gas company will give you general statistics on how much energy is used or saved for each degree
germy
@Just One More Canuck:
I wonder if the real experiment is a study on how quickly family members will come to blows over the thermostat setting?
russell
They’re entitled to practice their faith. The rest of us are entitled to require that they isolate themselves, whether individually or en masse.
It’s not the responsibility of the rest of the world to make it convenient for you to worship as you wish.
patrick II
@Barbara:
Nice switch. What you originally complained about:
and in your rebuttal.
The former deserve hectoring scolds. The latter deserve to eat. We deserve to be clear which it is you are complaining about. And, ironically, you turned into the hectoring scold.
West of the Cascades
Probably true — but that underscores the tragedy that we do not have even enough masks for our healthcare providers in this country right now because of this evil administration’s failure to plan and failure to react over the last two months. Imagine how much less fear people would feel if there were enough masks to wear in public while also practicing physical distancing (even if masks are not totally effective) — it also would be a powerful social signaling tool (as it has been in parts of Asia that have seen flatter curves in the spread of the disease). Invoking the Defense Procurement Act and ordering production of masks, say, a month ago, might have had us in a very different place today. So many illnesses, so many deaths, will be on the heads of Trump and his enablers and sycophants.
Baud
I’ll be happy when this is over so I can start coughing in people’s faces again.
Barbara
@patrick II: They are hectoring scolds using the chat board to berate their neighbors for having the temerity to want to go out to shop. They are “yelling” virtually, because they think everyone should be hunkering down to get delivery, thus transmitting their risk to the low paid people staffing warehouses and other delivery service requirements. Some people like me realize that I am taking a higher risk than I perhaps could get away with by going out occasionally. But I am doing my best and I am definitely trying to stay away from anyone who is at higher risk. We are all afraid. I am sorry you are at higher risk.
JanieM
@russell: As it was necessary to say so very often during many campaigns for gay rights and SSM in my state, they are not entitled to harm other people in the name of their faith. You don’t get to sacrifice virgins in the public square just because your religion tells you to
ETA: That, of course, is what a sane reading of the 1A would suggest. These people are not sane, so logic is useless in dealing with them.
AliceBlue
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ: Georgia was never a penal colony. Although the original settlers who came over with James Oglethorpe included a few who had been released from debtors’ prison, the rest of them were shopkeepers, farmers and artisans.
Barbara
@JanieM: The point has been made many times that as a society we are not well-suited to self-sacrifice for the benefit of the community. For that reason alone, it was even more imperative to have a testing and tracking system in place so that we have robust evidence for asking people to make changes in their routines and absolutely infuriating that we remain well behind the curve.
trollhattan
@AliceBlue:
I took history and remember there was a cowboy, an Indian, a construction worker, a cop, a sailor and a guy…not sure but he wore a lot of leather. #ThingsLearnedOntheInternet
leeleeFL
@Boris Rasputin (the evil twin): I had never heard this, but I approve of the premise!
bemused
@dww44:
Pastor said at recent service while congregation busy greeting and infecting each other, “We’re revivalists, we’re not woosies”.
germy
WaterGirl
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ:
I am not a professional in any relevant field, so take this for what it’s worth, but I would go with a combination of Sebastian at #39 and Hungry Joe at #46 and Betty Cracker at #49.
Initiate an email conversation sharing your concerns and hope he’s stupid enough to put what he’s been saying in writing. And then not let him take your son.
Take care.
Kent
Gotta fill the pews and keep the offering plates flowing in order to keep current with those private jet and private mansion payments. COVID is messing with their revenue stream.
ziggy
And to pile on, the CDC gave guidance that wearing a mask was NOT helpful, in order to save masks for health care workers. To be sure, a N95 mask is the best, but even a dust mask, or home-made mask, or even bandana is going to help a lot.
I can now say from experience that wrapping a long scarf around the lower face doesn’t work! Falls down, needs adjusting, defeating the entire purpose.
cintibud
@trollhattan: Georgia was settled by the YMCA?
Elizabelle
Cuomo O’Clock is set for 1:30 p today.
Brachiator
@AliceBlue:
Oglethorpea had intended to found a “Debtor’s Colony,” but the idea fell apart.
cope
@Ohio Mom: Suggestions from a retired public high school science teacher (28 years teaching a variety of courses including environmental science).
1) If you are of a mind to complain, start by contacting the teacher directly. Find out exactly what the parameters of the “experiment” are, what exact instruction was given to the students, what the intended goals of the experiment are, what controls are in place and why now is the best time to do this lesson given, well, you know…things are going on. Going straight to administration with complaints about these kinds of things often results in crossed wires ‘twixt teacher and boss. Believe me, getting called into the principal’s office as a teacher is about 100 times worse than getting called in as a student. If the teacher is unable to give you reasonable explanations or assurances, then feel free to go over his/her head.
2) If you are happy with the answers the teacher gives and willing to continue the project, try to get enthusiastic and supportive with your son. As a parent of two, I know the headwinds you might face trying to do this with a teenager but if you buy into your son’s project, you might find the whole enterprise enlightening.
Elizabelle
@Kent:
The Lord works in mysterious ways.
Eric U.
@RepubAnon: a Lynchburg ice cream shop put out notice that they were more strictly enforcing their distancing rules because of Liberty students. The students are spreading the virus to innocent people in Lynchburg, potentially including my brother. If it were just them, I would watch them go with a certain amount of satisfaction
An Aussie complained to me that they started sending prisoners to Austrailia when they couldn’t send them to Georgia anymore. I asked if we could send the descendants of the ones we got.
leeleeFL
@LivingInExile: Moi aussi!
Kosh III
@A Ghost to Most: Ah, like Dany and the temple of the Dosh Khaleen?
trollhattan
@cintibud:
It would be irresponsible not to speculate. Men and Christian are right there in the name! And of course, they arrived in boats, so Navy.
The Moar You Know
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ: Yes, he can and the cops will enforce the custody sharing order, period. Including by hauling you off to jail if needed. You need to start calling some social workers ASAP.
Barbara
@The Moar You Know: Police do not normally enforce custody orders.
scott (the other one)
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ: You might try posting your question on reddit’s legal advice forum:
https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/
Good luck!
WaterGirl
@germy:
I literally smacked my forehead with my hand. Un-fucking-believable.
Ksmiami
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ: get a court ordered injunction that seeing him literally endangers your life.
patrick II
@Barbara:
It’s fine that people buy groceries, take reasonable measures, put signs up, etc., but that has nothing to do with the comment I responded to. You posted about church choirs spreading disease. They deserve to be hectored. Then you switched to people buying groceries, which was not even mentioned in your first post. And now you are trying to justify your response to me with a multitude of actions that, once again, had nothing to do with your first comment.
If those activities should not be hectored (publicly criticized), you should have said so. But you didn’t. And I can’t respond to what you are really talking about in your mind, only what you wrote in your comment.
Kent
Simple solution. Turn off the head in your kid’s room. Keep the rest of the house warm.
Sebasian
@The Moar You Know:
No they won’t. Cops do not enforce civil orders. Once the wronged party files a motion in court and the judge issues a CONTEMPT ORDER then the cops will enforce the contempt order.
Rusty
@zhena gogolia: Yes, yes, yes! Our church is doing the same. The assumption that being Christian means you are Evangelical is maddening. Our Christianity doesn’t look anything like theirs.
Sab
@WaterGirl: Endangers kid’s life.
Geminid
@Eric U.: A guy I worked with was from Lynchburg, said that Falwell Senior’s father and uncles were well known and sucessful bootlegers, so maybe Grandpa is now smiling from up in….well, from somewhere.
Shana
@Jeffro: The Hoarse Whisperer on Twitter yesterday called them the Branch Covidians.”
Aleta
@Ohio Mom:
I’ve read that for resistance to any seasonal virus right now, it’s good to stay warm and hydrated (and “humidified”). I’m sure you have this covered, but just imo: -Is it possible the class has a list of measures to choose from, and your son is opting for continuing with the thermostat one? -Also, seems reasonable to tell the teacher the limit for your house, and to request other things he can substitute.
-Also, thank you for the support the other day. Helpful and appreciated very much.
MattF
OT. Turns out that the main promoter of the chloroquine ‘cure’ emits that con artist vibe. See also relevant post on Derek Lowe’s blog.
Repatriated
@Betty Cracker:
The problem is that the amendment process was set up for a very homogenous and small electorate. Only rich white men could vote. Amendments that a majority of this narrow slice of the population wanted were easy to make happen. Those that a majority of them in 1/4 of the States did not want were impossible.
The problem is that we now have to get a consensus from the entire (diverse) population to make changes, while blocking a change only takes majorities in 13 states. Add in the population differences between states and the process is completely broken.
LuciaMia
Meanwhile, in Belarus, the president there is refusing to cancel anything. Tells the people that vodka and saunas will cure the coronavirus.
WaterGirl
@Sab: Guessing this must be in response to my comment about the child’s visitation with dad question and not the comment where I am gobsmacked because Trump came out and said “we can’t let them vote or we”ll be voted out of office”?
If it’s the former, child endangerment for sure.
Brachiator
@LivingInExile:
There were always enough nuts to go around. The Puritans voluntarily fled England, to go to the Netherlands and America, because they didn’t think that the Church of England was tough enough.
Of course, the Puritans who set off on the Mayflower in the 1620s missed the later English Civil Wars and the rise of that arch authoritarian, Oliver Cromwell.
Good times.
JanieM
@Kent:
Simple enough unless the kid’s room doesn’t have its own thermostat.
jackmac
Bible-thumping “Christian” church near Elgin, Illinois pulled the same stunt. The law cracked down.
https://chronicleillinois.com/coronavirus/elgin-area-church-agrees-to-stop-group-services/
Sab
@WaterGirl: Yes. Child visitation.
Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
@AliceBlue: Georgia was first founded by James Edward Oglethorpe by using penal prisoners taken largely from debtors’ prison, creating a “Debtor’s Colony”. Not quite a penal colony, not quite made up of free folk either.
trollhattan
@LuciaMia:
It’s actually worse than it first seems.
Unclear which Belarussian futbol club is now Amir’s favorite.
Barbara
@patrick II: Patrick, this is my response to you. I won’t be responding again. I am not trying to argue with you, but I really don’t care to dissect blog post comments. You are at high risk and afraid. I accept that.
WaterGirl
@JanieM: I only have one thermostat for the house, but I can close the heating vents in any room.
cckids
@Barbara: I was just going to mention that :)
Here’s a link to the LA times story about it. It seems to be human nature to believe that “it can’t happen to me”. Until it does.
45 known infections out of 60 attendees. Those are frightening odds. AND they were taking more precautions than at the FL or LA churches.
Origuy
A lot of the New England Puritans went back to fight with Cromwell’s army.
https://www.newenglandhistoricalsociety.com/1640s-more-people-left-new-england-than-arrived/
jeffreyw
Back from a grocery run, the store was well stocked although not so many choices -eg., no fancy breads, fewer varieties of ice cream. Plenty of TP, paper towels, kleenex, no hand sanitizer, no spray cleaner. We bought a gallon of Clorox bleach. No family sized frozen veggies but a good array of the smaller bags. Best of all, not crowded. Masks on a few shoppers. No guard glass in the checkout but the checker was sanitizing her hands between customers.
Jeffro
@WaterGirl: The whole concept of “agreeing” to a “level” of voting…no. more./never. again.
The level is 100%.
The agreement, GOP, is “agree to 100% or we will destroy you”.
Brachiator
@Origuy:
Interesting. Heavy duty zealots.
Jeffro
@Shana: That’s excellent – totally stealing that. Works better than variations on Jim Jones and his cult (too long ago) and Heaven’s Gate (too small/obscure + only killed themselves)
Mandalay
I guess this press release by Mike Pompeo on February 7 is old news, but it’s new to me:
I can’t think of any clearer evidence that the Trump Administration was completely oblivious to the shitstorm that was already here, as Pompeo proudly gave away the farm because we couldn’t possibly be affected.
What a complete fuckhead.
patrick II
@Barbara:
That’s dismissive. And beside the point. Context matters, choirs that meet and get each other sick not only deserve opprobrium but it is necessary so others get the idea. It is not picking at your comment to say you did not mention all of the others who do not deserve public criticism. I only did that after your second comment, in which you seem to forget what you were talking about in the first. Context matters.
And this is my last comment to you also, except you may want to go back and read the original post that I replied to to see how in the hell grocery shopping was mentioned.
pat
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ:
Maybe you should call the cops on him.
Fair Economist
@waspuppet:
Even my sister-in-law’s faithhealing fundy congregation shut down. The ones still open are extra kooky.
Sebasian
@jeffreyw:
Was posted here a while ago, I ordered a gallon and am about to receive it tomorrow.
https://www.bulkapothecary.com/product/raw-ingredients/unscented-bases/unscented-hand-sanitizer-gel-base/
germy
https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2020/03/25/illness-and-crisis-from-medieval-plague-tracts-to-covid-19/
Barbara
@Origuy: Likewise, many non-zealots left England rather than take sides. These include some of my husband’s ancestors, including one who left at the age of 60 because he couldn’t stand living in a country during a civil war.
C.V. Wedgwood’s book on the the Thirty Years’ War (1618-1648) postulates that wars of religion clearly set the stage for religion and religious feeling becoming a less dominant force in Europe over the next 150 years.
Sab
OT. I do not know how to cook for two people. Made a pot roast last week. That got old at about day 5. Turned the remains into beef barley soup. Now we have to eat that forever.
I know. First world problems.
tybee
@AliceBlue: Georgia was never a penal colony.
Yeah, we picked up that part on our own.
Amir Khalid
@trollhattan:
Belarus are very unwise to keep their sportsball going, putting players and fans and stadium staff and media crews and police officers at risk of coronavirus infection. They should be doing like everyone else: staying at home and singing You’ll Never Walk Alone to show solidarity.
Jeffro
@jeffreyw: We’re trying to keep it to one run a week here. Glad to hear that things are generally looking ok in the grocery stores.
I might have to set some weekly targets for using up all the soups, chili, and canned beans across the rest of the year. =)
What a weird national disaster: power’s on, water’s on, food’s available, Netflix (and internet in general) is available, you can get all the outdoor exercise you want…just stay completely away from other people until oh summer or so.
Roger Moore
@Shakti:
Because their religion tells them persecution is proof of their righteousness:
Jesus told them it’s righteous to be persecuted for believing in him. If they aren’t actually being persecuted, they’ll exaggerate the tiniest inconvenience into martyrdom just so they can feel righteous.
Ohio Mom
Janice @67: Ohio Son’s science class is for nonmajors and as a result, it’s not very scientific. It’s more like a science appreciation class.
The assignment was to pick three out of list of energy-saving projects, and I think the idea was to show students that becoming environmentally responsible citizens is something all of us can do in our own small ways.
The teacher warned that the thermostat project required cooperation from roommates, so I have no legitimate reason to complain, except that it is a lot harder to do than I anticipated. You are my new heroine for living this way all the time.
MattF
@Sab: ‘Eternity’ is two people and a five pound ham.
LivingInExile
Mrs. D. Don’t let the facts interfere with a good story.
JMG
@Origuy: After the Restoration, at least one of Charles I regicide’s fled Britain for Massachusetts. He lived in hiding in Deerfield, but emerged to lead the townsfolk in King Philip’s War.
ziggy
@Barbara: I for one really appreciate your comments and insight. Pie can be very good at times.
catclub
@MattF: ‘Hell is other people’
Sab
@MattF: Horrors!
dfh
I like the use of the appellation Shitgibbon. I use it so often I finally just added it to the dictionary to get rid of the red underline.
JanieM
@Ohio Mom: Heh. Not a heroine, just cheap. ;-)
And like I said, it takes gradual getting used to.
Maine is where you know you’ve lived through another winter when 20 degrees F outside feels like a heat wave.
I great up in the snow belt of Lake Erie (NE Ohio), so I thought I was used to winter. But it’s longer here, and on average colder. Thirty years later I start waiting for things like crocuses and forsythia to bloom two or three weeks before they actually do.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
anyone listen to— or plan to listen to– the Joe Biden podcast?
Sab
@Ohio Mom: We bought my granddaughter two frozen princess dresses for Xmas. Our current crisis is that the yellow dress is fine, but she doesn’t have appropriate blue shoes to match the blue dress.
My stepdaughter is all set to go find bargain blue shoes. I am all “WTF is wrong with you. We are in a pandemic.” She is all “I am living with an autistic child. She had needs/demands.”
Sab
@Ohio Mom: If nobody has asthma I could ship you a couple of my not declawed cats who like it warm.
Bill Arnold
@Baud:
I had a phlegmy cough most of last year and part of this year. It went away soon as (well a day or three) I started taking extra vitamin D (4000 IU; I’m male and tall and overweight, dropped 20 pounds so far during isolation though.) Not sure if causal (it also was concurrent with start of self-isolation) but interesting. (Vitamin D deficienciest; are scientifically correlated (a few papers) with higher rates of acute respiratory infection.)
A Ghost to Most
Rick Wilson, at the Beast:
jeffreyw
@Sebasian:
Thanks, just ordered some.
Sab
@JanieM: NE Ohio doesn’t actually have winter anymore. Hatdly any snow. I don’t know what to do with my extensive winter wardrobe.
Kent
That’s what Amazon is for.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Noted public health expert Stormy Daniels weighs in on the man she calls trumpy and his short….. term plans.
Miss Bianca
@A Ghost to Most: Damn, I dislike these dudes like Tom Nichols and Rick Wilson, simply because I know how little it will take for them to feel safe bashing liberals again, but holee shitsnacks can they bring the wood against the stupidest of their own political cultists. it may not do much except make me feel a little better, but even that is something.
We go to war against MAGAts and right-wing ignorance with the allies we have, not the allies we wish we had.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Sab: Send the frantic Mom here. There’s a whole page of blue Frozen princess shoes to buy online. The kid might like helping pick them out.
Sab
@Kent: She lives hand to mouth. No credit card.
JanieM
@Sab:
Yeah, my brother has been playing golf on and off all winter. That would have been like a sci-fi story when I was a kid. My high school boyfriend was a golfer, and they had to wait at least into March to get on the course. It’s spooky.
trollhattan
@Sab:
White shoes–owned or shipped–and fabric paints in the desired colors. An art project and a properly accessorized princess dress.
My kid has been enjoying painting sneakers and other shoes, and shows me Instagrams of athletes who do the same, some of which are quite talented.
Of course, the new hobby could get expensive. :-)
A Ghost to Most
@waspuppet:
You still don’t get it.
Aleta
Has the imposter in the WH stopped all traveling ? Does his fake “extending the guidelines until end of April” include him not going to M. L.? Are Rs still going to the DC hotel to hang with supplicants? Is is happening but on the low down?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Barbara:
Don’t you think those who aren’t following social distancing guidelines should be berated?
zhena gogolia
@Sab:
My husband and I eat like this all the time. I make something big on Sunday and we eat it all week. We like it. But we’re not gourmands!
Humdog
Arrest warrant just issued for this pastor. He is supposed to turn himself in to the Sheriff.
zhena gogolia
@A Ghost to Most:
No, you don’t.
zhena gogolia
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
I think she had an unpleasant encounter in the grocery store. She means people getting vicious and in each other’s faces.
Ruckus
@RepubAnon:
If god had given them brains………
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Sab:
Fairly recently too. We had a nasty winter like a year or two ago, but normally winter is a lot warmer than it used to be even 6 or 7 years ago. A lot pogoing of temps.
Spring and fall are now like a few weeks long
Sab
@Barbara: Please don’t go away. You are in my top five for why I come here. And yes you have been harsh to me when I am being stupid. Still have psychological scars.
debbie
Jesus, please stop your people from this assholery.
BR
I want to ask again if there’s anyone who knows researchers / medical folks / etc. who could do genetic sequencing of coronavirus samples from Florida. It’s needed to find out where the infections in Florida are coming from (most likely they’re community spread). I wrote a bit about it earlier (sorry for the repost — I posted on an almost dead thread).
**
Anyone here in Florida, and know anyone who works at a university / research lab / in medicine? We need genetic sequencing of samples of coronavirus in Florida right away. There are currently no sequenced results from Florida despite there being many from other states. And Florida is on the verge of a big outbreak. Maybe the universities in FL have the ability to do sequencing in house and just haven’t bothered? They could probably do it and submit it to this project:
https://twitter.com/trvrb
The urgency of this is due to the gambit underway to try to blame the entire US outbreak on New York City/State, thereby deflecting blame from the white house and complicit governors (like Florida’s). My reading indicates that it came from many sources, mostly from folks returning from vacation in Italy, and now it’s to the researchers to prove it and get that out to the non-Fox media.
So if any of you know someone who does lab work or research or medicine or have second-hand connections like that in Florida, can you reach out right away and ask them to start sequencing and submit results / samples / data to Trevor Bedford’s project in Seattle?
Sab
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Scary if a youngster like you notices.
You are aging out of youngster. What are we going to do at BJ when you are just a jackal?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@zhena gogolia:
Oh, that’s a different story then. Biting people’s heads off for innocent mistakes is wrong. A lot of people are on edge
Geminid
@Barbara: I like your use of the word “hector.” Very apt for some behaviors commonly described now as “flame” or “hassle.” I have been trying to revive “churlish” because it so well describes Trump’s general behavior but that word may be too far gone.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Sab:
Given the age range of jackals, he’s got a ways to go before he’s over 40.
Mike G
@Jeffery:
Australia says thank god we got the convicts and America got the puritans.
Though they have plenty of their own bible-thumpers now.
Richard Guhl
@Roger Moore: Our Constitution is a kludge written by men who saw parliamentary forms of government as a formula for tyranny and thought a mishmash of monarchical (President), aristocratic (Senate and Supreme Court), and democratic (House of Representatives) forms was the solution.
Sab
@zhena gogolia: He is a better guy than my guy ( and me.) We is bored by our food.
trollhattan
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
On that topic.
Barbara
@Sab: Not going anywhere. Thanks.
I actually try not to be harsh. It just never helps. I’ll try harder.
Sab
@?BillinGlendaleCA: I believe M4 is in his thirties.
zhena gogolia
@Sab:
He never gets bored — he could eat the same thing every night for a month and be happy. It’s what he did before he met me, after all.
ema
This country was founded by religious zealots, and as a result, our laws and our customs are far too accommodating to dangerously stupid/evil hucksters like Howard-Browne.
Meanwhile, in poor hold-my-beer Israel:
In other parts of the Haredi autonomy, women were actually being blamed for the coronavirus. On the walls in the hard-core Haredi neighborhoods of Mea She’arim and Beit Yisrael, someone had found time to put up a poster blaming the plague on “lack of modesty,” and exhorting “Women and Girls! Repent! Observe tznius [modesty] according to all the rules of halakha!” referring to Jewish religious law.
Sab
@Barbara: I divide the world into lawyers and not lawyers. Lawyers get special allowances because they work in a harsh alternative universe.
Suzanne
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ: My next-door neighbor in a family law attorney here in AZ. I will ask her if she has thoughts. She told me that all family court stuff is going digital right now, so maybe you can file a petition electronically without an attorney?
trollhattan
@ema:
Huh, so Pat Robertson went to Israel and not heaven? Good to know.
germy
Google the words “Texas Pastor” and see all the hair-raising news results you get.
Sex crimes, embezzlement, all sorts of felonies and misdemeanors.
It really is something.
Gin & Tonic
@Sab: There are two kinds of people in the world: those who divide the world into two kinds of people, and those who don’t.
germy
@Sab: What about the third group? Law professors like Richard Epstein?
lumpkin
@Ohio Mom:
Is the teacher a climate science denier that’s trying to teach the kids a lesson on what it’s going to be like if we try to do something about global warming?
germy
Mary G
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Sab: So is PSI.
Roger Moore
@Gin & Tonic:
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don’t.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Barbara:
I wouldn’t want you to leave either. You’re doing fine and aren’t very harsh : )
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Sab: Being a former litigation support tech person, I’d say attorneys create the harsh alternative universe, but I’m not bitter.
Gin & Tonic
Great headline in my Google News: “Health experts warn against mixing rum, bleach and fabric softener to make ‘hand sanitiser'”
It may just be me, but do you need experts to warn against that?
germy
Investigative journalists in his home town of Tampa reported at the time that since arriving from South Africa almost penniless in December 1989, his sudden wealth included a boat, a Harley Davidson motorcycle, a home in one of Tampa’s exclusive gated communities and access to a private jet; however, they were unable to find evidence of financial wrongdoing.[2][1]
germy
In August 2019, Howard-Browne delivered a sermon in the Canadian Arctic territory of Nunavut as part of a 300-city tour. He preached for over an hour at an Iqaluit church to a mostly Inuit audience of more than 100 people. The event featured a call for donations, including a video of Howard-Browne claiming “God loves a generous giver,” which Nunatsiaq News criticized on the basis that poverty is widespread in the city and nearly half of Nunavut’s population relies on social assistance amidst long-standing crises in food security and housing.[15] The news outlet also noted that he “lashed out” at and “harangued” audience members who tried to leave before the end of the sermon.
Richard Guhl
Betty, I must disagree.
Our nation has always stood on two principles in contention.
The New England Pilgrims and Puritans saw their settlements as an opportunity to break with the old world order and construct a better one. John Winthrop, the first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony, charged his compatriots to make others conditions their own, to labor and suffer together, to share their surpluses to provide for others sufficiencies, to rejoice and grieve together. They wanted to build a better world.
It was the Jamestown colony that was founded on the “anything to make a buck” principle, and it’s no surprise that slavery was established there. Religious grifting is the Jamestown principle with a coating of religious language.
While the Pilgrims and Puritans wanted to overthrow the old world order of domination and exploitation, Jamestown sought to reify the old world order.
And so it is to this day.
trollhattan
@Gin & Tonic:
File under “Bars to never visit.”
Bill Arnold
@germy:
Probably already linked, but If anyone wants to read a well done crackpot takedown, give-them-enough-rope New Yorker style:
The Contrarian Coronavirus Theory That Informed the Trump Administration (Isaac Chotiner, March 30, 2020)
He is a very good example of right-wing wu purveyors. The guy has no clue about biology and evolution, and he thinks that he is an expert.
BellyCat
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ: (Late to thread, have not read comments, but if not addressed by others) Call your local Domestic Relations office. If he is violating any Orders regarding social distancing where you are, they can issue an Order prohibiting his actions. If he violates this Order, he loses his custodial rights.
I’m truly sorry for your situation. I’m in a custodial dispute regarding my 4 year old and as bad as it is (and it is) at least my Son’s Mother is taking the pandemic as seriously as me.
Gin & Tonic
@germy: Sounds like they were having nunavut.
/notNotMax
Bill Arnold
@germy:
A few more, just for fun:
Rodney Howard-Browne: Coronavirus Pandemic Is a Globalist Plot to Kill People With Vaccines (Kyle Mantyla, March 16, 2020)
Rodney Howard-Browne: A Critical Examination of his Theology and Practice (2005)
OK, I admit it; I loath his “theology”.
germy
@Gin & Tonic: And they say Vaudeville is dead.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@trollhattan:
Does that “strong zonal, west-to-east flowing polar vortex” have to do with climate change? I assume so
Gin & Tonic
@Richard Guhl:
Roger Williams on Line 1 for you, sir.
japa21
@Richard Guhl: Interesting fact. The first woman hanged in the colonies was a Quaker. She went to MA where they told her that she was not welcome and was sent packing. Her two male compatriots were hung at that time. She came back twice, put in jail the first of those times and hung the second time.
Definitely a better order.
germy
@Bill Arnold: Interesting that he started out in South Africa, but left in the late ’80s. Only a few short years later apartheid ended. I wonder if he saw the writing on the wall, and decided to get out for that reason…
(pure conjecture on my part, but)
Brachiator
@Gin & Tonic:
Is this hand sanitzer or a cocktail?
WaterGirl
@Sab: That’s what the freezer is for. In a couple of weeks you won’t feel like cooking, you’ll open the freezer and say “pot roast!”
Gin & Tonic
@Brachiator: Floor wax *and* dessert topping.
Bill Arnold
@germy:
The loaves and fishes and rolls of toilet paper video you linked above is just … gobsmacking. “Holy laughter” is a signature part of his services (reportedly), so there’s that, but it’s still over the top.
germy
70-year-old Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’ is quarantining himself after an aide tested positive for the coronavirus.
Another Scott
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2020/03/30/coronavirus-dc-maryland-virginia-live-updates/#link-4XUHRGXM4JAPLGQBXCNOBETSTE
Cheers,
Scott.
Betty Cracker
@Richard Guhl: My point wasn’t that the Puritans were grifters but rather that because of the circumstances of its founding, America is unreasonably tolerant of religious zealotry.
Aleta
I’ve always pictured them as wanting freedom from domination and freedom for themselves to discriminate and dominate others.
Roger Moore
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Awful lawyers are mostly a symptom of their awful clients. If everyone behaved decently the legal profession would have a lot less work.
WaterGirl
@Humdog: happy dance!
Roger Moore
@Gin & Tonic:
Do you really have to ask. If people are bothering to warn us against doing something, it’s because somebody is recommending that we do it, and people are following the bad advice. People who are scared will do really stupid stuff.
Shakti
@Roger Moore:
I have my own personal super unpopular theories about that which extends backwards to a lot of these political Christians behavior before this crisis.
This is not to say there aren’t persecuted Christians. They just don’t really exist in America.
I think there’s a dash of this and something else. There’s got to be something the preacher can only do if he has everyone in the same room that he cannot do or he is afraid he cannot do if they all tune in from Zoom from services.
https://twitter.com/tressiemcphd/status/1244375096510349312
Martin
This is what happens when government shirks its responsibilities and elevates faith-based groups into essential services. They come to believe they are government co-equals in all respects – because federal and state officials have been saying they are for decades.
Sab
@japa21: Pictures are hung. People are hanged. Just pedanting.
germy
Martin
@Betty Cracker: This might be the same point that you are making, but the history of America’s religious tolerance is largely based on religious groups willing to do the heavy lifting for politicians goals regarding social cleansing, and other fairly evil things.
Catholicism certainly has no claim to innocence here, but Protestantism, particularly America’s variety, is very populist and very adaptable to performing this role. Just look at how rapidly the southern baptists went from pro- to anti-abortion.
I know there’s a lot of desire to break the white patriarchy by choosing a non-male/POC for executive, but breaking the religious leader access to the WH is just as important. Just look at how effectively they’ve invaded executive leadership under a president who isn’t a religious zealot. He knows where the power resides in this country.
...now I try to be amused
@germy:
I had the same thought. One reason to emigrate to the US in particular: one can make a good living as a religious charlatan here.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Roger Moore:
Ha!
japa21
@Sab: Every thread must have its pedant. Point taken.
ETA, But what if the person is pinned to a wall?
trollhattan
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
It’s one of the vortexes (vorteii?) climatologists and meteorologists monitor. My limited understanding is it has a strong influence on the jet stream and when that loops northward near Alaska and across northern Canada, it pulls moisture and winter storms north with it, leaving the Pacific and innermountain states high and dry. This winter, January and February were luridly dry in California and while March has been much kinder, we’ll end the wet season with a 50% snowpack.
Brachiator
@germy:
Yes, once again wondering why Haberman can’t do her job.
germy
@Brachiator:
Martin
I’m hoping Gavin uses this opportunity to break the back of CA’s current brand of NIMBYism. It’s been a nontrivial contributor to the magnitude of this epidemic, and is going to completely undermine our ability to ease out of lockdowns.
He’s been trying to fix this since getting electing, and now he needs to get it done.
Gin & Tonic
@Sab: Well, in fairness, that unfortunate woman’s two male companions may well have been hung, we just don’t know. This may have been a factor in their companionship.
The Lodger
@trollhattan: Vortices. You’re welcome.
Uncle Cosmo
@Geminid: As in Fucker Churlson, SwanSong frozen pseudofood trust fund baby? I’m with you!
Uncle Cosmo
@Gin & Tonic: In fact there are 10 kinds of people in the world:
Those who can read binary and those who can’t.
;^p
(ETA: Curses, trumped once again by Roger Moore at #222 supra.)
afanasia
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ:
I can’t bring myself to recommend any course of action, and this is not exactly your situation, but here’s an anecdote: Starting at the beginning of the quarantine in our state, my stepchildren were suddenly being taken out and about by their mother, who usually has them one weekend a month. My husband finally told her that next time she takes them, she keeps them until the end of quarantine. That stopped her cold. Obviously, you can’t risk your son going to stay with your husband. But you might be able to come up with some variation on this play.
NotMax
@Uncle Cosmo
Have a T-shirt with the following emblazoned thereon:
Brachiator
@germy:
The New York area reporters always knew what Trump was. They just never thought that he would ever accrue any real power.
Jinchi
@Aleta: Yes the Puritans were striving for a home where they could practice the proper “Godly” form of persecution, not to get rid of it. And they absolutely didn’t believe in freedom of religion.
Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
@LivingInExile: A pedant’s gotta pedant….c
Ruckus
@Sab:
Well you could do with yours as I did with mine after leaving Columbus and moving back to CA.
Leave it in the closet or take it to Goodwill. I’ve done both. Still ready for those single digit days to hit CA. Not holding my breath.
Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ
@Suzanne: Yes, please ask. If I could file one without having to go to the courthouse that would be great. Unfortunately, last dealing with Family Court about 4 months ago, still required in person hearing so I don’t have a lot of hope for an all electronic process.
Martin
CA as microcosm for the nation.
Travel data shows that social distancing is being implemented more aggressively in urban/suburban areas than rural. That’s true across the state – north and south. The areas that aren’t reducing travel much are the red counties, but also the agricultural centers of the state – places where we need people to keep going to work.
The warnings going out to rural areas are well founded. But you can go to work and have that environment be safe, but it’ll probably require shifting some resources. We hired people to clean, even after shutting down most of the campus.
WaterGirl
@Jeffro: Total agreement.
WaterGirl
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ: It’s a whole new world now, so I think predicting anything based on how it was before doesn’t bring accurate results.
Best of luck.
Yutsano
A bit OT, but just got notice on Twitter that Hungary just voted to make Orban dictator for life.
evodevo
@MattF: Mr. Evodevo would heartily agree…his parents had ham at every opportunity, and to this day he won’t touch the stuff. If I want a ham steak, I have to get it at a restaurant lol
Ruckus
@Gin & Tonic:
Yes, yes you do.
It may come as a surprise that a lot of people are dumber than the median
It may not.
Martin
Ms. Martin is on 3rd mask design. She sews, so if nothing else it keeps her busy. We have plenty of non-woven poly, thanks to raiding through the fabric storage. Bed skirts are a great source of it. The stuff that sits under the mattress is almost always non-woven poly. Turns out we had quite a few of those folded away as a source of matching repair material, which they can still do.
Design 1s got donated. Design 2s we’ve been using and distributing to neighbors. Design 3s are custom fit.
ziggy
Yes, based on my observation, about half the population!
terry chay
@Hungry Joe: Yeah and these people voted for Clinton over Trump?
Ruckus
@Martin:
I think trump likes that these “religious” leaders are raking in the money by spreading bullshit in copious quantities, something he’s been trying to do for decades. IOW he recognizes fellow grifters.
Barbara
@Martin: I read that some of the manufacturers of bed linens that are seeing the cancellation of orders from commercial customers (hotels, cruise lines) are now producing masks. I wrote about a local coffee shop teaming up with a local restaurant and catering company to produce basic WHO hand sanitizer. It’s the only place I have seen sanitizer in three weeks. These seem like small things but they aren’t. But nor do they substitute for the abject failures in other areas.
Ruckus
@Jinchi:
I’ve said for decades that Puritans didn’t come to the new world to escape persecution, they came to practice it.
Elizabelle
@Barbara: And distilleries producing hand sanitizer. That’s happened in a few states.
The Portuguese Bend Distillery in Long Beach, CA, only open since June, is cranking out … not the product line they envisioned, but they have the alcohol, and their customers (including first responders) needed it.
I love reading about people being creative and solving problems.
LA Times:Inside a Long Beach distillery churning out hand sanitizer to battle COVID-19
Elizabelle
@Ruckus: Yup. Although they did not see it as persecution when they practiced it.
We are all so lucky to have been born a few centuries later.
debbie
@ema:
Finally, something worse than those old farts spitting on little school girls walking to school because they didn’t think they were dressed modestly enough. Grrrr.
Brachiator
@Yutsano:
From CNN
This is the Age of the Authoritarian
Elizabelle
@Barbara: This was a phenomenal article in the LA Times. Did you see this one? Very comprehensive.
It would make a great blogpost topic; lot of information and history in here. Well worth a click.
Los Angeles Times: We’re at war with COVID-19. What lessons can we learn from World War II?
frosty
@Richard Guhl: This was one of the things I took from reading Albion’s Seed. Your description of MassBay and Jamestown matches the fight between the Roundheads and Cavaliers. We’re still fighting the English Civil War, 400 years later.
Add the Quakers and Scottish Borderers and you have all four of the Seeds.
debbie
@germy:
Vaudeville will never die while Republicans walk the Earth.
The Pale Scot
@ziggy:
But done right you look cool :)
Sab
@Gin & Tonic: Sad. Pastry time.
joel hanes
https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/03/30/tampa-church-holds-packed-service-draws-warning-from-sheriffs-office/
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@germy:
I always thought that was a Carlin line– in less Ivy League language–, but I guess his is “idiots who drive slower than me, and assholes who drive faster than me!”
trollhattan
@The Pale Scot:
If it’s not a Liverpool FC scarf you’ll be hearing from Amir.
A Ghost to Most
@zhena gogolia:
What’s to get?
It’s all a sliding scale of bullshit.
Mindviruses will destroy humanity.
It’s why they have eschatologies.
sdhays
@Brachiator: I thought that he had lost his super majority, so he must have convinced members outside his coalition to support this, which is insane.
I wonder what the EU will do, if anything.
Martin
Got some interesting data from my county. It suggests that when the Bay Area did their shelter in place order, people in my county – 400 miles away – really hunkered down pretty hard, despite there being no order here. Now, my county looks a LOT like Santa Clara in terms of education, job types, income, etc. so it’s unlikely many people here looked at that order and thought ‘oh, well, we’re different here’. So this may not translate everywhere, but there’s been a significant drop off in new cases here with a date of onset after the Bay Area lockdown but ahead of our local one.
That’s good news if we see that more widespread in places like NY, MI, etc.
I wonder how that may track with political attitudes in terms of social empathy. Thinking about ‘we’re not California’ attitudes.
Martin
Fucking greedy unions:
Oh, wait, wrong narrative.
debbie
@Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ:
My town has a shelter in place order, and police will stop people they see violating the order. My state has ordered non-essential businesses to close, and they are planning on prosecuting violators. Is there anything similar in your town/city/state or the ex’s? If so, I’d call the police or the health department and see if they can provide any guidance.
Just One More Canuck
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
As a forensic accountant, I am stunned at how many bad lawyers there are
Another Scott
@Mandalay: Parts of the US Government knew what was going on in early February and tried to prepare.
https://www.chcoc.gov/content/2019-novel-coronavirus (from February 3, 2020):
Cheers,
Scott.
debbie
@Another Scott:
And then a month later…
Another Scott
@BR: I’m no expert, but thought I would offer my thoughts. It sounds like you’re quite upset about this and I would urge you to step back a bit.
Repost – Science:
HTH a little, and isn’t a bunch of irrelevant noise.
Cheers,
Scott.