Apparently confirming what we already know, the virus is transmitted via air:
To some American companies and Florida men, COVID-19 is apparently a war that will be won through antimicrobial blasting, to ensure that pathogens are banished from every square inch of America’s surface area.
But what if this is all just a huge waste of time?
In May, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention updated its guidelines to clarify that while COVID-19 spreads easily among speakers and sneezers in close encounters, touching a surface “isn’t thought to be the main way the virus spreads.” Other scientists have reached a more forceful conclusion. “Surface transmission of COVID-19 is not justified at all by the science,” Emanuel Goldman, a microbiology professor at Rutgers New Jersey Medical School, told me. He also emphasized the primacy of airborne person-to-person transmission.
Sad news, really, because I was enjoying this era of Americans embracing basic fucking hygiene.
burnspbesq
So yeah, wear a fucking mask.
Mingobat (f/k/a Karen in GA)
Speaking of wastes of time, there’s also Marlin to Marlin transmission. I’d be surprised if the MLB finishes the season.
ant
You crack me up.
Classic John Cole post.
Gaffa
Washing your hands (for 20-30 seconds with soap — and that’s soap, not “anti-bacterial macrophage alcohol-based annihilation oil”) is still a great idea for everyone, because it just stops so much common crap spread around your life. Doing it every time you use the bathroom is the least you should do; doing it every time you walk by the bathroom might be better (allowances given for people who have to roam up and down the hallway chasing errant children, electronic devices, pets, or sufficiently advanced gestalt forms of all three).
ant
I also refuse to shake hands. Never again.
Unnecessary.
hells littlest angel
Must … not … make … West … Virginia … joke.
EmbraceYourInnerCrone
@Gaffa: Also use some of that soap and water on said errant children and phones! and the dogs, I am not bathing my cats, that is a painful way to die!
Baud
So the key is to find a way to get rid of the air.
TheOtherHank
@Baud: Well, no one will transmit COVID if there isn’t any air.
hells littlest angel
@Baud: No, we just need to replace the oxygen with greenhouse gases. No virus can survive that!
DCA
I’ve read that soap and water may actually be better at virus destruction than the various sanitizers (though they are better at killing bacteria). It is surprising how long it seems to be taking to settle this issue–though I heard “from coughing” back in March and from then on acted as though aerosols were the problem. I remember thinking that the best place to be would be on a beach with a sea breeze blowing.
My way of thinking about indoors vs outdoors is just to remember back to when indoor smoking was common–this gives a fast answer to “how safe are bars?”.
ant
It’s entirely possible that the covid virus could mutate into having better fomite transmission.
Easier spread would help it propagate.
hrprogressive
This isn’t going to stop me from washing my hands raw or wiping down my groceries “just in case”
But the continued trend of knowledge in this direction is nice to know, I guess.
The continued trend in knowledge over aerosols and asymptomatic carriers is, however, terrifying.
frosty
The fucking hygiene works against the seasonal flu though. IIRC Australia and Chile have had far fewer cases than usual.
Leto
I don’t say this too often, but one of the best things about being deployed was the fact that before you entered any Dining Facility, you had to wash your hands. They had sinks at all the entrances, with soap(!), with someone standing there making sure everyone did that. It might seem like a waste of manpower to have one person standing there making sure adults did what they were supposed to do, but then you remember that most people don’t wash their hands so of course we need fucking babysitters. Anyways, I agree Cole. Basic fucking hygiene is a nice thing.
Hoodie
I recall there were some very early statistics for NYC in one of the Cuomo pressers back in the spring that was consistent with this. IIRC the vast majority of transmission seemed to be within households, while there seemed to be very little transmission attributable to public transit, where you would be less likely to share the same inside airspace for an extended period but more likely to encounter a lot of contaminated surfaces.
Leto
@frosty: I’ve read that reporting too. Keeping people home when they’re sick, masking up in public during sick season… all things conservatives will fight against. Mainly because they think people will just take unlimited sick days, and that if you wear a mask it’ll make your pee-pee fall off.
Hungry Joe
Please, somebody, tell me if this is stupid (not that you’d hesitate): Is washing hands with soap also effective because, in addition to killing nasty mini-critters, you dislodge them from your hands and send them down the drain? Hand sanitizers don’t do that.
JDM
After doing some winters in Thailand we found we like the wai, the little bow (or, often, nod) with palms together. I’ve also thought that if we ever do an RV winter with casino stays again, I’m going to wear a mask during flu season at least. I had a four day flu a couple years back that was plenty nasty enough for me.
danielx
@Baud:
Where better solutions are to be found, Republicans will find them. So don’t be spreading that idea around.
Ken
@frosty: Randall Munroe covers it, as usual.
oldster
I’m okay with finding out that the surface-contact route is minimally contagious.
Next, I want to hear more about droplet vs. aerosol. Because that makes a big difference in the efficiacy of masks vs. face-shields.
Some of us need to use face-shields so that others can see their lips. If the main route of contagion is droplets, then face-shields are pretty good at stopping both the outgoing droplets and the incoming droplets.
But if aerosols are a big part of the picture, then the face-shields are going to be much less effective than the masks. If the virions are just floating around in the air, not attached to falling droplets, then they are going to be in every volume of air that we breathe in, even behind a shield.
And that’s going to be a bummer for those who depend on lip-reading.
So, I’m hoping that aerosols are not a major route. But I’m afraid some of the data suggests otherwise.
danielx
Taking a note from the Kentucky mayor addressing his constituents and ending with “…and wash your hands, you filthy animals!”
Amir Khalid
@JDM:
I’m going with the Vulcan greeting from Star Trek.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
I’ve thought for awhile that sanitizing surfaces to combat COVID-19 was just theater. Just like temperature checks.
A gym in a nearby county in Pennsylvania defied lockdown orders in April and justified doing so through sanitizing and keeping 6 ft distance. I felt for him on some level because he was hurting financially, but I still hated him for being irresponsible. He recommended people wear masks but didn’t say he was going to require any
Starfish
@ant: John Cole: Saving the planet through mopping naked
Eolirin
@oldster: People making are cloth masks with vynl cutouts where your mouth is to solve that problem. There are multiple designs and tutorials on YouTube .
CaseyL
@Amir Khalid: Ooh, I like that one!
I’ll be back on the job market in October (when my current project appointment expires) and knowing virus-on-surfaces is less likely to kill me is reassuring, I guess. But job hunting during a pandemic with an air-borne bug isn’t something I’m keen on at the mo’.
Litlebritdifrnt
Jackals I give you Daisy the St. Bernard who got to the top of the mountain, sat down and refused to walk back down.
bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-53543367
There is not much you can do to move a 55kg dog if she doesn’t want to move. Kudos to the Mountain Rescue Team who carefully carried her down the mountain on a stretcher.
Chief Oshkosh
@Baud:
Perfect Baud reply to a perfect Cole post. My day is complete; I’m making the first martini.
Gaffa
@Hungry Joe: Soap is really all anybody needs who is not in some particular career where excessive cleanliness is necessary (viral lab research, food prep, whatever). The antibiotic nonsense the US has been putting over their hands for decades is not only bad for the environment, it’s bad for us, as it’s sped up the evolution of microbial-resistant germs, and that’s very bad, indeed.
And, yeah, in a very, very simple explanation, the reason why soap is all you need is that the chemical composition of a bar of soap is that it is slippery all the way down, lo, even unto the microbial level. The scrubbing and water washes the microbes off your hand because they literally can’t cling to you thanks to the soap (again, complex biochemical reactions simplified for ease of Nearly Top 10,000 blog comment post metaphors).
If you’re not working with particularly nasty household chemicals on a regular basis you probably don’t need anything more than soap for your day-to-day handwashing needs.
Fleeting Expletive
I very rarely drink cola but I’m buying some 2 liter bottles this week to experiment on face-shields. Somehow I think a plausible shield can be made out of a clear one, maybe the headband could be cut from sponges or pool noodles. Attach a shoelace to tie around the head, perhaps.
WaterGirl
@oldster: Did you see the tweet (and article, I believe) about the place where all the FACE SHIELD people got COVID and none of the mask-wearing people did?
It was in this morning’s post.
WaterGirl
@Litlebritdifrnt: I found the article about that upsetting yesterday because it didn’t say what was wrong with the dog or if the dog is now okay.
WaterGirl
@Chief Oshkosh: It’s true. Don’t ever make me choose between Baud and Cole.
catclub
we have a similar sized/dispositioned cat.
Brachiator
@Hoodie:
However, in many places, including NYC, there was a significant number of virus deaths involving bus drivers and transit workers. In the UK, for example:
However, it should also be noted that many bus drivers also lived in communities that were more at risk.
WaterGirl
@Gaffa:
I disagree. If you’re out and about and going to 3 stores, it makes total sense to use Purell as soon as you get to your car, and between stops.
catclub
@Ken: I love the teeny tiny fist.
Gaffa
@WaterGirl: I can’t disagree with that, so I thank you for the correction.
catclub
Bury the whole thing!
Fleeting Expletive
@WaterGirl: So maybe my two-liter bottles wouldn’t help. Okay by me. I’ve got tee shirt masks, the papery surgery masks, and a couple of nice ones made of silk from Etsy which are very comfortable. I see why people hate the surgery masks, they are hot and fog up your glasses and slip-slide all over. I’m mostly giving those away to anyone I can give one to.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Litlebritdifrnt: love that story
A couple of years ago I got on a plane and saw the guy across the aisle wiping down his area with a clorox wipe, and I thought to myself, “Felix Unger over here…”. About midway through the flight, I thought, he’s on to something.
I’m gonna keep washing my hands and doing everything else that might help prevent it. I was just reading about a thirty year old baseball player who has “recovered” from the ‘rhona, but now has a heart condition he didn’t have before.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@DCA:
Loud, talkative, spitty, huggy people with reduced inhibitions constantly breaking into personal bubbles? The sort who are apt to wind up with a one-night hookup with some random for a night of unprotected oral, piv and/or pia sex (or all three, if it’s a fantastic night)?
Shouldn’t be problematic at all…
Brachiator
@WaterGirl:
This is troubling. When I went to the supermarket yesterday, I saw a family where the parents wore masks and their kids, around age 9 and 12, wore cute face shields and masks.
But here, I wonder about the design of face shields, if they are a problem. They might be designed to get around the “problem” of a nose and mouth being covered. But this increased air flow might actually also allow the virus to get in.
Yutsano
@Litlebritdifrnt: Aww! Poor girl was sore. I was wondering why a St Bernard wouldn’t move. But Daisy was done with the whole moving thing and that was that!
pat
@WaterGirl:
It did mention that the dog seemed to have some pain in the legs.
I have to wonder why the dog was on the mountain in the first place.
ETA: probably had to carry the little keg of brandy…..
Matt McIrvin
@oldster: My impression it’s a continuum–very tiny droplets are more like aerosols, in terms of how they move. But the virus probably doesn’t spread very effectively without some kind of droplet to ride on. Which is why masks work as source control, in combination with distance–they let some tiny droplets through, but those also tend to evaporate more rapidly. And why it’s safer to be outside, since the elements both carry droplets away and promote faster evaporation.
bemused
@JDM:
I’ve seen people wearing face masks long before covid 19 showed up, not often, but I always concluded the mask wearers had a compromised immune system for one reason or another. I never heard of idiots accosting them and sneering at people wearing a mask pre-pandemic. I have no doubt the trumpist types were suspicious about the mask wearers and probably avoided them thinking they were contagious with something. It’s beyond parody that now the anti-maskers are angrily, proudly and defiantly doing the exact opposite. Stupid is as stupid does.
Kristine
Wrt the face shield/aerosol discussion, bringing up this link from Anne Laurie’s morning Covid update.
Matt McIrvin
@bemused: Before COVID, I’d see people wearing masks on occasion and they were generally either from, or in, East Asia. They had the right idea all along. But I do think racism/xenophobia is a contributor to anti-mask feelings.
PJ
@Litlebritdifrnt: There was another dog who got a news item for doing the same thing a few years back. In some ways, it’s admirable to know your limits and just sit until you are ready to move, but probably anxiety-inducing for those who care about you, particularly if you are non-verbal.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Good
I was just thinking as I listened to some of the coverage on the car radio how awful he would look with his bored teenager’s affect, desecrating the moment.
frosty
@Ken: Yeah, I remember seeing that.
“This handwashing, it stops when this is all over, right?”
PJ
@Fleeting Expletive: There was an article circulating today that showed, at least in one instance of a Covid outbreak, that face shields were ineffective (those wearing them got infected) but masks worked.
Litlebritdifrnt
@WaterGirl: No problems. Her owners were with her the whole time and kept her fed and watered. She was just exhausted after walking up the mountain. She is now back to her old self albeit a bit embarassed at being a mountain rescue dog having to get rescued off a mountain.
@WaterGirl:
rikyrah
Yeah….
I’ll keep on wiping down everything…..
Not really trusting them.
Better paranoid than not.
germy
so much for voting by mail:
Neighborhood post offices could soon shutter without emergency funding from Congress, Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) warned Sunday.
Matt McIrvin
Anyway, we stopped wiping down all our delivery packages and groceries, and being quite so fastidious about stashing things in the basement for 3 days, some time ago, because I’d been reading enough to know that surface transmission wasn’t as big a deal as it was suspected to be early on. There are some apparent cases of it happening, but they’re all in places where the airborne viral load was probably very high–churches, COVID wards in hospitals. When you go to the grocery store, your biggest risk is probably just inhaling virus-laden droplets that came directly out of an infected person. On exposed surfaces, it’s probably rare for an amount of virus that can actually infect anyone to still be there after several hours–and it’s less time if the surface is outdoors. No-contact delivery where they leave the goods on the doorstep seems to be quite safe.
But I do still wash my hands a lot and change my clothes/take a shower after coming back from that grocery trip.
oldster
@WaterGirl:
Thanks, WaterGirl! Can you give me a bit more guidance on finding that?
A search in the WAPO on “shields masks” did not bring up anything about that topic.
Litlebritdifrnt
@Matt McIrvin: Living in the Lancaster area we saw Chinese students from Lancaster Uni wearing masks in town long before Covid. It would appear it was just something they did. Turns out it was a smart move.
oldster
Ah, got it:
thelocal.ch/20200715/only-those-with-plastic-visors-were-infected-swiss-government-warns-against-fac…
Kay
I love how they all still think “a Biden gaffe” would matter. “I was with Joe Biden until he mixed up that one word with another word, and then I almost HAD to go back to Trump”
It just seems like we’re well out of the realm of stupid petty shit mattering at all.
Brachiator
@Kristine:
Wow. I’m convinced.
I guess that the hotel thought it was important that guests be able to see the workers’ faces. Unfortunately, this was a wrongheaded move.
Fair Economist
@DCA: Depends on the sanitizer, but there was a study in March or thereabouts which showed all the standard sanitizers killed SARS2 better than soap and water when just left on it. Soap and water was still really good though; 1000fold titer reduction in five minutes, and that was without scrubbing/washing. Especially in view of the evidence showing airborne is the primary transmission mode, I think washing your hands and wiping surfaces with detergent is probably “good enough”.
A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)
@Leto: My husband and I took a camping safari in Tanzania in 2017 (our trip of a lifetime), and they had a similiar setup to help keep their guests from getting sick. We were treated like kindergarteners with the first station called “soapy soapy” and the second “washy washy” but it worked. Everyone washed their hands before eating and no one got sick.
Matt McIrvin
@oldster: That is impressive in that, at least anecdotally, it seems to suggest that the masks are protecting the wearers themselves, not just other people. The evidence for that has always been a bit weaker than the evidence for masks as source control.
tomtofa
@Gaffa: Not only floats them off the hands but destroys them, by dissolving the lipid shell and disassembling the virus components inside it (if one washes long enough (+20 seconds, per the standard advice). Sanitizers destroy them too, if the alchohol component is over 60%.
So wash at home, sanitize when out – it’s not rocket science.
WaterGirl
@Gaffa: But if you’re at home, soap & water is best!
The Moar You Know
@Leto: I was a guest at one of Uncle Sams’s finest overseas military establishments about ten years ago. I was impressed to say the least by the two armed MPs overseeing the handwashing station at the entrance to the feeding facility. They’d bitch you out good if you didn’t do a good enough job – they had a stopwatch on the wall. I frankly wish every restaurant in America had them both for the employees and for the customers. You’d slash contagious disease in this country of every type by 90%.
I won’t even get into the rest of it, but they took cleaning seriously in a way I hadn’t seen since I was a kid hanging out with my depression-era grandparents. In both situations, you just couldn’t afford people getting sick – ever – because there might not be first-class medical help available on demand (and in my grandparents case, possibly none at all, so cleaning was important)
JCJ
@Baud: In space no one can hear you sneeze
WaterGirl
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Plus, COVID isn’t the last (possibly pandemic) virus we are going to see, and by definition with a new virus, it will be here before we know about it.
So yeah, this focus on hygiene should be here to stay.
mrmoshpotato
Anatomy 101 lesson:
Your mouth and nose are on your head. Your eyes are also on your head. That’s why you can’t see your mouth or up your nose (with a rubber hose!) without a mirror.
See those bony hot dogs (h/t Futurama) and floppy things at the end of your arms? Those are your fingers and hands.
Notice how you can see your fingers and hands but not your mouth or up your nose?
THAT’S BECAUSE THEY’RE IN TWO DIFFERENT LOCATIONS! WASH YOUR FILTHY FINGERS AND HANDS WHILE WEARING A FACE MASK!
Thanks for attending my TED talk.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kay:
Have you ever seen anyone point out that our last four Republican Presidents had relationships to reality and the English language that ranged from muted hostility to all out war? I remember Poppy Bush, the smartest of the bunch, had some whoppers. Remember “Don’t cry for me, Argentina.”?
JCJ
@Litlebritdifrnt:
SARS CoV 1 and swine flu taught them and any others who took a moment to comprehend germ theory.
Raoul
@Gaffa (or others): A related question: Because antiseptic wipes are in short supply, I bought a couple inexpensive packs of baby wipes at the Co-op a few months ago. Keep ’em in the car for cleaning my hands after shopping, pumping gas, etc. I then do a dab of gel or pump-spray alcohol sanitizer.
My assumption is that the wipes, which have sodium cocoyl natural cleanser + water (and other typical stuff), they will wash off most of the oils and grime on the hands that harbor any possible nasties, and then the alcohol sanitizer bats second.
Given what is emerging in the science, even this belt+suspenders approach may be a bit more than needed, but do the jackals think it’s sufficient
Of course at home I’m doing soap and water frequently.
WaterGirl
@Brachiator: What I read seemed to be JUST SHIELDS – instead of masks. I think the two together is fine, from what I have seen.
If you just have a shield, you are trapping particles in there near your nose and mouth, which apparently doesn’t seem to be a good thing.
WaterGirl
@Kristine: That’s the one I referenced above, but i was too lazy to go get the link. Go you!
WaterGirl
@Litlebritdifrnt: Oh, good. I was surprised by how disturbed I felt yesterday. So glad to know the dog is okay.
I suspect that it’s the owners who should be embarrassed because I bet they made their decision to bring the dog without giving any thought to the risks.
WaterGirl
@oldster: I was just about to post the link, but I see you are all good now.
Searcher
I just hope that we can stop wearing gloves where it wasn’t previously required.
Raoul
@Litlebritdifrnt: Pre-covid I was somewhat famous (in our household) for getting colds on plane trips. More often if the flights were 3-4 hours or longer (nonstop or combo of segment lengths). I feel like I have a knack for sitting right behind coughing, inconsiderate fliers.
I haven’t flown since March 4 now, but assuming we get out of this mess alive and not with “longcovid” as it’s being dubbed (people who have ongoing symptoms for months, ugh!), or an authoritarian hellhole we can’t fly out of, I will want to travel again.
I suspect I may join the many mostly-Asian travelers who have for years worn face masks in airports and on planes. Yes it’s more about not being a spreader. But at least a properly worn N95 is alleged to reduce one’s risk of contracting an airborne illness.
oldster
@Matt McIrvin:
Right, that’s a good point. Masks are not only a service to others, but may also be keeping you healthy as well.
I do worry a little bit about the small N problem in this report from Switzerland. How many got ill? How many did not? Has this pattern been replicated elsewhere? Etc..
I have seen the style of mask with the clear window over the mouth (“window-mask”?), but I have my doubts about them. To begin with, I suspect that they will fog much more quickly than the face-shield, since there is less air circulating behind them, like none.
In addition, the surface of the filter is much smaller. With any filter, there is a trade-off between keeping the gunk out and letting enough good stuff in. Filter material that is tight enough to keep the bad stuff out also requires a strong pressure-differential to pull the good stuff in, i.e. you have to breathe hard.
The solution is to radically increase the surface area of the filter. That’s why the filter in your home furnace/AC has a lot of pleats, and the finer the filter, the more pleats it has. That way, the pressure differential across any square cm can be low, but the total volume of pass-through is still high.
Back to window-masks: I don’t see how you get enough filter material around the periphery of the window in order to do effective filtering, at low enough pressure-differentials to avoid labored breathing.
RobertB
My wife has a story about her sister taking their boxer mix to a March of Dimes walkathon. About halfway, the dog said ‘enough’ and did just what that St. Bernard did. Their dad had to go pick the dog up, because the dog was done for the day.
The Moar You Know
@WaterGirl: Owners ought to be given a “one more strike and you’re out” card. A Saint Bernard of any age or weight is not going to be able to do an eleven mile hike; they’re lucky the dog didn’t keel over and die.
If you want a dog that will walk eleven miles, get a Dalmatian or a coonhound or a similar “hunt-all-day” breed. A St. Bernard is good for maybe a mile in each direction and I’d take the dog’s age and level of physical activity into consideration before doing even that. Big mastiff-type dogs are just not cut out for that kind of sustained physical activity.
Emma from FL
@Raoul: you can get alcohol pads of the kind used in first aid kits. They are small but saturated with isopropyl alcohol. When I am outside (very very few times) I have those as well as sanitizing spray. I use the pads and then spray after leaving every environment.
Kay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I don’t think there’s a real recognition of how bad it is. People really latched onto the Ohio color coding of counties. They all understand it. So you ask someone from another county “what color” and they say “red” and you both go “hmm. Not good”.
This is not a good situation! “Joe Biden’s gaffes” are not……relevant.
They’re all seeing historic levels of “wrong track” in polling. What do they think that’s about? Not gaffes.
VeniceRiley
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: One of my recovering friends also has heart area trouble. Says it feels like breeze over an open sore.
Jeffro
@Kay: truth! A ‘gaffe’ vs the entirety of this monstrously incompetent administration? Give me a break.
Also not sure how a ‘military entanglement’ plays out in trumpov’s favor…he has already had a couple ‘rally around the flag moments’ and they fade incredibly quickly due to, well, him. Him re-inserting his slippery-shoed foot into his moronic mouth.
Same with a SCOTUS vacancy…at this point, which side do the Villagers think would be more motivated to get that vacancy: the ones who keep getting the ‘football’ (ie, the American theocracy they’ve dreamed about for so long) pulled way from them, or the ones who know that our backs would truly be up against the wall with another Kavanaugh?
They just don’t get it. Trumpov motivates us just by existing, just by continuing to be maliciously horrible at his job every day. There’s not one thing he could do (or not do) that would keep me from burning up most every hour of every day at what he and his GOP enablers have done to this country.
Baud
ETA: The plan.
Baud
@Kay:
@Jeffro:
What if Biden has a gaffe while wearing a tan suit though?
trollhattan
@RobertB:
We have hot summers and yearly, the SPCA and local animal control have to remind owners of flat-faced breeds that they cannot tolerate extended heat exposure. Boxers, English bulldogs, pugs and the like don’t have adequate capacity to shed extra heat.
Backpacking in the Sierra we sometimes encounter commercial horse packers and their trail dogs are typically Aussie cattle dogs. They’re tough as nails, smart, operate in packs and seemingly go from dawn to dusk.
Ruckus
@Leto:
Couldn’t do that in the navy back in the day because so many ships had water issues, like making enough fresh water. Ship I was on did for sure, often we were on water rations, no showers for weeks at a time. Then one day one of guys in charge of the distillers was talking to a fella on another ship and was told that the manual was crap and to throw it as far away as possible and gave him the right settings. From that moment on we were making so much fresh water that we were constantly pumping it overboard because the tanks were full. It was nice being able to wash and have clean clothes.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Worth noting that Corona isn’t the only disease out their and the flue be will back soon, so basic sanitation is always good.
Kay
@Jeffro:
They’re just bad at everything. I don’t agree with their decision to send Trump’s police force into Portland, but I think if I were Bill Barr and i had done that I would first want to be sure Trump’s police could actually secure the courthouse. They have not managed to do that. They’re now faced with the absolute worst case- they go in vs 200 rag tag protesters and lose.
JMG
@Kay: The professional election data analyzers/forecasters like Silver have a deeply vested professional interest in scenarios that make this a closer election than it is now. Nobody’s gonna click on that “Biden maintains 10 point lead yet another week/month” article. Silver’s an honest guy, so he does note that some scenarios would make it worse for Trump, too. Obviously the biggest one is a schools reopening fiasco in late August-early September. It’s also by far the most likely new event.
catclub
Why not say “He will not be paying his respects?” Much more accurate here than usual.
RobertB
@trollhattan: I think it wasn’t the heat so much as the distance. That dog wasn’t particularly fat, but wasn’t used to walking 20 miles. Or even 10. And that was back in the 70’s(?), before the internet was around to warn you about stuff like that.
Kay
@JMG:
People seem pretty realistic about the schools. Resigned. That’s maybe the worst “indicator” of all- the understanding they (now) have that no help is coming from the President or his administration.
They don’t even try. DeVos came to Ohio last week and didn’t engage on public schools at all. She held an event where public schools weren’t invited. It wasn’t even about the virus. It was about vouchers.
Not…relevant to what’s actually going on here. In any way.
bemused
@Matt McIrvin:
The population of northeast MN is not what anyone would call diverse so before Covid19, the mask wearers I’ve seen were all white people, usually older white women.
LuciaMia
@germy: Dont understand this. Does Trump and the GOP think only Democrats vote by mail?
DCA
The thing with masks is: they do catch outgoing droplets, which otherwise quickly evaporate down to aerosol size. They also, for coughing/sneezing, stop the jet of warm moist droplet-packed air that you produce, which otherwise promptly floats up and disperses everything very efficiently.
Inbound, for an aerosol a cloth looks like a fishnet for much bigger fish, so not so helpful.
catclub
I think Trump believes ( and could be right) that showing maximum chaos is his only winning chance to amp up fearful voters.
never mind that they might realize that he is the problem. And all the chaos is happening on his watch.
raven
@Ruckus: When I was in the war son.
mrmoshpotato
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
Are we getting the whole chimney back, or just the flue? ?
Ruckus
@Gaffa:
Isn’t a virus outer layer a lipid, and therefore soap breaks that down and actually doesn’t do the virus cell any good whatsoever?
catclub
Its people like you who would put doctors out of business! Communist.
Mart
Flew last time mid-March. Was shocked at the 100% hand washing in the Men’s bathrooms. Even waiting in line to get a sink. Wonder why with men being such piss poor handwashers, refusing to shake hands did not catch on sooner.
LuciaMia
@catclub: Cant cut into that golf time.
Kay
@catclub:
With what it has cost to defend that courthouse they could have built a new one. And they’re just getting started! The Battle of the Courthouse Fencing continues.
gene108
@DCA:
NYC instituted the first smoking ban for all bars under its jurisdiction, in the country. That was back in 2003.
Feels like it’s been smoke-free forever, but it’s a relatively recent thing.
piratedan
@Baud: guessing its the continual grasping by the media to still fit this election into a “both sides/horse race” narrative. Anything else requires thought, policy analysis, reporting on issues and that might mean they could get caught out on being a bunch of know-nothing hacks who struggle with anything not on the pre-digested script.
bemused
@WaterGirl:
I wear gloves when doing those errands and change between stores. As long as I’m wearing a mask, I think I might as well wear and change gloves too.
On an errand run last week, I was walking from my car to the supermarket and saw a maskless man talking to a maskless woman in passenger seat of car, open window. I’m not great at judging distance, but they couldn’t have been more than 3 feet apart. As I passed a safe distance away, I could hear the maskless man talking about the pandemic and how much weight he had gained.
randy khan
@hrprogressive:
I’d never tell people not to wash their hands – which is good for many reasons beyond COVID-19 – or not to wipe down their groceries, as everything you do makes you incrementally less likely to get or transmit the disease, but I think it’s really clarifying to tell people that they can have a major impact on transmission by doing a few relatively simple things. Heck, you can pare it down to three, one of which is kind of the same as one of the others: social distancing, wearing a mask when you’re around other people, and not going into crowded indoor spaces for any period of time.
This is much better than a laundry list, which kind of implies you have to do *everything* right or you’ll get the COVID, and which can lead people think that if they miss one item they might as well give up on everything.
Kay
@catclub:
And you see the problem, right? The vast, vast majority of the protestors are not breaking any laws. Soooo- what do they do? How do they end it? It’s really who gets bored first :)
randy khan
@Hungry Joe:
I’ve always thought that a big factor in the value of washing your hands with soap was that you’d wash long enough to get all of the soap off, but maybe that’s just the cynic in me.
That said, soap breaks down the oils on your hands (which is why it makes your skin feel dry when you’re done), and the oils are largely responsible for making microscopic stuff stick to your skin. Alcohol has something of the same effect, but as you point you don’t then rinse it off when you use a hand sanitizer.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@LuciaMia:
You’d think they would, TRUMP VOTES BY MAIL.
bemused
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
I heard a British offical on tv why opening up bars was a mistake saying drunk people can’t/won’t socially distance. Duh. I think most people knew that before places opened up bars but they did it anyway.
raven
@gene108: The smoking ban was a double edge sword because it moved all those fucking assholes to the outside seating so I quit taking my dogs downtown!
Matt McIrvin
@LuciaMia: Historically, mail voting has tended to skew Republican, but a lot of that is because of overseas military
If there’s an election strategy here, it may be just to sow general chaos in order to undermine confidence in an unfavorable election result.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@gene108:
California did it statewide before that, 1998.
Chief Oshkosh
@germy:
Sounds like Chuck is begging The Master of the Universe to do her thing. Just once I’d like Chuck to do what McConnell did when McConnell’s party was in the minority. You know, be an asshole to people OUTSIDE OF HIS OWN FUCKING PARTY.
But NOOOOO. Chuck is and always has been useless at most things. So, I guess it’s Nancy Smash to the rescue again.
A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: I saw a news report recently that said Australia, now in their winter season, had braced for the flu season to add its misery to the Covid epidemic, and then the flu season has never really arrived. Turns out that the sanitation measures to prevent Covid also suppresses flu and cold germs too! Silver lining. Wash those hands and wear masks, everyone!
rikyrah
@ant:
I know that’s right.
jonas
For months now I’ve been rolling my eyes at various businesses, esp bars and restaurants, who tout how they disinfect all the tables and doorknobs and stuff so it’s safe to come there. Now, I gather that the state requires this as part of their reopening plan, but it’s been pretty clear for some time that this thing spreads through the air. I’m much more interested in a business’s commitment to make everyone wear a mask. A little ice-cream stand in town has a big sign letting customers know in no uncertain terms that if you’re unmasked, please turn around and leave. They won’t even talk to you. They’ve got my business.
WaterGirl
@bemused:
I do that, too! In fact, I keep half a dozen pair(s) of white cotton gloves in a plastic bag in the car now. Every store or vet visit gets a new pair. It’s surprising how often I end up using one more pair than i expected!
Brachiator
@JMG:
I disagree. The value of polling lies in its accuracy, not whether elections are close.
And despite all the wailing here about the media and its functionaries, a pollster cannot create a close election. And horse race narratives are meaningless if the data refutes them.
However, news organizations regularly publish stories, complete with snazzy graphics that don’t mean anything at all.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@RobertB:
My old yellow lab, a hundred pounds of muscle and stubborn, decided when he was done with walks. I always marveled at how relaxed he looked, but every muscle in his body was locked in a sit. He had early onset arthritis, so I didn’t push him. I never had to pick him up, or get us picked up, he always made it home. But when my sister, his favorite person in the world, walked him, he never pulled it. And on walks in the woods or generally unpaved, non-suburbia, when there was much sniffing to be done, he would cover a lot more ground.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Yikes!
@catclub: Mark Knoller is one of those I often think is auditioning for Uncle Rupert. As I recall, he was the golf-counter during Obama’s tenure
joel hanes
@burnspbesq:
wear a fucking mask
And make sure it covers your nose.
Sinus mucosa are often the first tissue to be infected, the breach in the walls that leads to lung infection.
If I can see your nostrils, you aren’t protecting yourself, and aren’t doing much to protect yourself.
Ruckus
@raven:
I never claimed I didn’t have it better. And never would. It was part of the reason I enlisted in the navy, can’t deny that.
All of our waste was pumped overboard – fun story, we docked in Antwerp and the urinals and toilets were all stained because the water was so polluted. All the flushing was with the water the ship floated in, saltwater. Gave the head (restroom) a nice scent as well. Not.
Also all the solid waste, boxes, paper etc was all dumped overboard. There was a tube welded on the back of the ship with a funnel top and this went almost to the waterline. All trash/garbage underway was dumped into this which put it all in the prop wash and broke it up into small pieces. Still polluted the hell out of the ocean. Now all that is captured and pumped or carried off the ship when it docks and disposed of at least not unreasonably.
japa21
@Chief Oshkosh: Not quite sure what you want him to do. Nancy and the House have already passed funding for the Post Office. Schumer, instead of just sitting quietly, is out there making it clear that if the PO goes under, the blame belongs on the GOP.
joel hanes
It’s going to be a very long time before I willing shake anyone’s hand, for any reason.
Amir Khalid
Trump is giving his Covid-19 briefing from North Carolina. Full of his usual bullshit.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I hope he at least kept it brief.
On MSNBC they mentioned that Lewis boycotted Bush’s inauguration (trump’s too), but Bush was there at the anniversary march at the bridge. I didn’t remember Bush being there and googled, and sure enough, there was Lewis with Bush holding his right hand and Obama his left. Were I on that set, I would have mentioned that in between, Bush appointed John Roberts.
I wonder if Roberts attended the memorial? I’m sure he had the good taste to leave at home the knife he used to gut the Voting Rights Act.
Jeffro
@Baud: well I think we’re talking Mondale or McGovern territory there, Baud. Is it possible to get negative EVs?
Calouste
@Kay: I wonder what Marriott is going to do when some bored, drunk, drugged-up DHS goons are trashing their hotel.
Anoniminous
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Sars-Cov-2 infects the endothelium cells lining blood vessels. This causes bleeding – cutting to the chase – in major body organs such as the heart and brain. The latter is why some people are being to realize we’re looking at decades of mental health and mental dysfunctions in Covid patients.
WaterGirl
@Matt McIrvin: I want to see what the military vote is like in Nov 2020.
joel hanes
@The Moar You Know:
<em>two armed MPs overseeing the handwashing station at the entrance to the feeding facility</em>
I cartoon I saw years ago:
Large Teuton in lederhosen, standing next to restroom sink/mirror, with a towel over his arm. Sign on wall:
“Hans must wash employees before returning to work”
My google-fu is inadequate to find the image.
Leto
@The Moar You Know: Pretty much; it’s such a simple thing that has so many benefits, plus it helps keep the team safe. Again, a simple act you do that helps keep you and everyone else just a bit safer (this idea is lost on so many people, or they just don’t give a shit). My FOB in Iraq was so remote that anything more than the sniffles (something serious) would’ve required, by chopper, at least four hours to get back to a main medical facility. And then at big bases, we have so many people there that we take reducing community transmission of simple stuff pretty seriously. Can’t afford to have 10% of the base in quarters.
So wash your hands, you dirty animals! :P
jlowe
All of the useless surface deconning might be good preparation for the upcoming pandemic caused by an enteric pathogen.
WaterGirl
@Brachiator:
Yes and no. A whole lot of people want to vote for the person they think will win. In 2004 (?) I remember making calls to people in Tennessee during the primaries and they would say “I really like [your candidate] but I think so-and-so is gonna win the primary, so I am going to vote for them.
So frustrating!
But that’s how the media and the pollsters can influence the outcome, pretty strongly. How said is it that so many Americans would rather be able to pat themselves on the back for voting for the winner – instead of voting for the best person.
I think that is less in play in the general election, but still plays a role. If the media makes you think your candidate is a shoe-in, maybe you think you don’t need to vote ’cause they are going to win anyway. Or maybe you think your person doesn’t stand a chance, so what’s the point?
There are a lot of ways the media and pollsters can influence the outcome.
James E Powell
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I don’t expect Trump to make any appearances that are not totally managed right-wing events. He is very much afraid of the public.
Betty Cracker
I’m fine with handshakes going away forever. It’s always kind of awkward anyway, not only potentially germy but also a pain in the ass because you have to remember “firm, but not too firm” and “look the other person in the eye.” Can we just not? Trump, the author of our out-of-control pandemic misery, also demonstrated how stupid macho shitheads can be about handshakes, so let’s use his COVID cock-up to kill his sick little hobby.
While we’re changing social conventions, can we make it so hugs are once again reserved for greeting beloved family members and romantic interests rather than any Tom, Dick or Harry you have lunch with? I feel like in my lifetime, a sort of “hug inflation” occurred that devalued the gesture by over-broadening the pool of targets.
Or maybe what should happen is that handshakes become more rare — not something you automatically do upon meeting someone but rather a gesture that is below a hug on the intimacy scale but higher than the old version of a handshake, which was pretty much universal. So, after lunch, if you liked the new person, shake hands rather than hugging.
Perhaps I’m overthinking this. And weird. Yeah, that too.
John Revolta
@gene108: The ban may have become official in 2003 but many bars had already instituted it long before. I remember walking into a blues bar I was playing at in the mid-80s and seeing clear air and thinking “Wow, this is really weird!”. Then, after being in there for about 15 minutes, I was thinking “Wow- this is really cool!“
Baud
@James E Powell:
To my recollection, I don’t recall ever seeing a picture of him mingling with his “base” voters (as opposed to donors). Even before the virus, he was always on stage, never in or with the crowd.
But I also try to avoid his face like the plague, so I may have missed it.
joel hanes
@randy khan:
soap breaks down the oils on your hands (which is why it makes your skin feel dry when you’re done), and the oils are largely responsible for making microscopic stuff stick to your skin.
The outer shell of SARS-CoV2 is made of grease.
The cell membranes of many kinds of bacteria are made of grease.
Soap and water are wonderful because soap breaks down that virus shell, dissolves that cell membrane, so there is no longer anything separating inside from outside, and the virus or bacterium just comes apart.
In short: soap kills bacteria and coronavirus in a way they can’t evolve resistance. AND rinsing removes the detritus afterward.
[To the tune of Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer]
Novel coronavirus
Has a lipid outer shell
Washing your hands correctly
Sends it straight to virus hell
Gravenstone
@Chief Oshkosh: The House has already done their part. The bill is sitting on McConnell’s desk. Along with so many others.
WaterGirl
@joel hanes: Until… never for me. Which I consider a very long time!
James E Powell
@gene108:
I’m a former smoker and I think back to the days when we could smoke almost everywhere – not just bars and restaurants, but airplanes and theaters – and I wonder how the hell was that allowed to go on so long.
joel hanes
First-hand account:
Matt McIrvin
@Leto: I was surprised to discover recently that there was a push during World War II to get people on the home front to wear masks in public during cold/flu season simply because doctors were scarce. I don’t know how successful it was, but Ernie Bushmiller did a series of Nancy gag strips promoting it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Betty Cracker:
A lot of my male cousins, on both sides of the family, have adopted the bro hug in the last ten years or so. I won’t miss it.
A couple of years ago some neighbors with whom I have a cool but not hostile relationship had a neighbor party. I got guilted into going by still other neighbors, walked in behind yet one more neighbor who gave the hostess a squealy sorority girl hug. Standing a foot away, hostess and I with a mutual Larry David-esque stare that acknowledged the awkwardness and absurdity of the moment, and seemed to last a full minute, grimaced and hugged.
Steeplejack
@Fleeting Expletive:
Or you could get a 10-pack of face shields from Woot for 25 bucks. Not much more than what you’d pay for the soda.
From what I have read, face shields alone are not good enough, but if you wear a face shield and a mask that offers some extra protection (over a mask alone) against the unmasked spitters and sneezers in your vicinity.
joel hanes
@James E Powell:
The people who made the rules were smokers.
Yes, I remember the 50s, when every living room had several ash trays. Everything and everyone smelled of tobacco smoke, so no one really noticed much.;
Betty Cracker
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Hahaha, that is exactly the kind of thing I mean! And here we have the chance to make it go away forever if we can just reach consensus as a society! I mean, even the Trump assholes must hate the awkwardness of being swept into the bosom of neighbor ladies they barely know, right?
Mel
@bemused: Sadly, the anti-mask stuff has been going on for a while. It’s just that the general attitude behind it and so many other Trumper behaviors was more constrained in public before the orange squatter encouraged people to bring their inside ugliness out into the light.
About ten years ago, my immune system was at rock-bottom due to immunosuppressant meds. My rheumatologist sent me for bloodwork at the hospital, and gave me a surgical mask to wear to lessen the chance of catching any respiratory crud while in the elevator or in the lab waiting room.
In the elevator, a very young, very arrogant doctor (possibly a resident – so young looking) sneered at me and asked me if I knew that “masks do nothing for you; they’re just unnecessary, except for surgeons.” He asked three times why I “thought” I needed a mask. I told him my physician had requested that I wear it. He rolled his eyes, and started to try to argue with me about the mask.
An older woman in the elevator turned to him and told him that she’d make sure to give his share of masks to someone else come flu season in the ER, since he thought they were unnecessary. She showed her ID badge. She was the facility infection control nurse. He had nothing further to say after that, and my stop was the next floor.
The mask behavior is just part of a bigger national pathology, and it isn’t limited to a particular locale or income or education level. The arrogant, bullying, ignorant, self-centered behavior is just out there in the open now.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud: it’s always funny to see whose opinion trump values, and by extension the contempt he has for his base
I saw a tweet over the weekend from one of his campaign drones noting, in all apparent sincerity, that there hasn’t been one boat parade for Biden
Origuy
I remember a story from Armistead Maupin’s Tales of the City back in the seventies. There used to be a restaurant called Sam Wo’s in San Francisco’s Chinatown, which had a waiter named Edsel Ford Fung. He was abrasive and rude to customers, who usually thought it was part of the ambiance. The tiny restrooms had no sink inside; it was outside visible from the dining area. One night a woman came out of the restroom and headed for her table. Edsel saw this and yelled at her from across the room, “You wash your hands!”
bemused
@Mel:
Wow. While I was reading this, I thought I’d tell that supercilious ass to fuck off but lady karma stepped right in. Love it. I hope he has been karmaed many times since, he seemed to be the type of jerk that never learns.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Mel:
That’s fantastic. According to all the hospital TV shows I’ve seen, an experienced nurse can drag a cocky young doctor to hell and back again.
Patricia Kayden
Jim, Foolish Literalist
and speaking of cocky young doctors…
Ken
@Baud: There was one picture of him back in 2016 holding a baby. The baby was howling.
Ken
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: But were they drinking or wearing bikinis?
Ruckus
@Betty Cracker:
I also think it’s weird. I never understood the concept of everyone shaking hands, then sitting down to a meeting where everyone stabs everyone else in the back. Or going to a sport punishment review board as the prosecutor and shaking hands with the all the participants from both sides. Or….. The examples are far too numerous to expand on. It’s pretending, like a little kid pretends to be a race car driver, that society is polite and kind and we never do anything to screw anyone else.
StringOnAStick
I talked with a friend who is on the local Uni’s Covid task force. The plans to get students in campus include single room dorms, assigning students to small pods that take all their classes and meals together with no interactions with anyone outside their pod, socially distanced lecture halls and labs, all lectures to be virtual. The big worry is HVAC systems, so they’ve been reconfigured to no recirculation and UV light filters added. Unless they get students back on campus, the Uni closes, for good. Now you know why the administration doesn’t want any funding to help the states: this is the perfect chance to get rid of higher ed. I’m sure Betsy DeVoss sees her chance to replace it with a network of private Christian colleges
Eunicecycle
@Ruckus: ugh, I used to think that in union arbitrations. I was in HR at a steel company so sometimes had to attend. Everyone would be going after each other tooth and nail, then when it was over would go play golf together or whatever.
Ken
Cue hollow sardonic laughter.
Ken
@Betty Cracker: From Tuf Voyaging, one of George RR Martin’s books (back before he began That Interminable Series): “I am familiar with the ancient ritual of shaking hands, sir. I have noted that you are carrying no weapons. It is my understanding that the custom was originally intended to establish this fact. I am unarmed as well. You may now withdraw your hand.”
raven
@Ruckus: Aw man I was just fuckin around.
Hungry Joe
@Origuy: Sam Wo’s: corner of Washington and Grant, right? A bunch of floors, narrow staircase, about three or four tables on each floor?
dww44
@Betty Cracker: I think you’re on to something here.
Anya
What I take from this is that we’re still learning new things from this virus.
We still need to wash our hands and stop touching our faces so much. COVID has made me realize how much I unnecesarily touch my face.
rikyrah
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I shiver just reading this.
rikyrah
@Anya:
Me too. I had no idea.
StringOnAStick
@Ken: I know, right? Sure the students will stay in their pods only, hormones being what they are and all.
Origuy
@Hungry Joe: That’s the place. I’ve never been there, and it’s moved to Clay Street.
evodevo
@The Moar You Know: On top of it all, what was the altitude? I know I get woozy above 6000 feet. I can’t imagine a St.Bernard lugging all that weight around and low O2 also…they ARE lucky it isn’t dead…people have no common sense.
Jay
@oldster:
a Swiss study of a cluster outbreak in a restaurant found that everybody wearing face shields caught it, nobody wearing masks caught it.
satby
@WaterGirl: in medical settings masks and shields are worn together, period. Shields are never worn without masks in a potentially infectious environment.
People wearing just shields is annoying because they’re basically useless without a mask. They’re designed to protect the eyes, not your nose and mouth.
KenK
@burnspbesq: absolutely!
satby
@Raoul: Your protocol (baby wipes/sanitizer) is just fine.
satby
@joel hanes:
Thanks for that cogent and correct summation. You said it before I had to again.
Every time people discuss soap on this blog I just want to weep with frustration.
Jay Noble
@Ruckus: If I never hear the phrase “Don’t take it personally, it’s just business.” it will be too soon.
Amir Khalid
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
A real-life truth all over the planet.
Ruckus
@raven:
I figured but hey, gotta defend the shit burning and ocean polluting.