Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

I’m pretty sure there’s only one Jack Smith.

I’m just a talker, trying to find a channel!

We’ll be taking my thoughts and prayers to the ballot box.

Fuck these fucking interesting times.

People are complicated. Love is not.

And we’re all out of bubblegum.

No one could have predicted…

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

Give the craziest people you know everything they want and hope they don’t ask for more? Great plan.

Authoritarian republicans are opposed to freedom for the rest of us.

Shallow, uninformed, and lacking identity

“And when the Committee says to “report your income,” that could mean anything!

Putin must be throwing ketchup at the walls.

Ron DeSantis, the grand wizard, oops, governor of FL

Michigan is a great lesson for Dems everywhere: when you have power…use it!

This country desperately needs a functioning Fourth Estate.

We still have time to mess this up!

Let us savor the impending downfall of lawless scoundrels who richly deserve the trouble barreling their way.

The Supreme Court cannot be allowed to become the ultimate, unaccountable arbiter of everything.

Usually wrong but never in doubt

We’re not going back!

Republican also-rans: four mules fighting over a turnip.

… looking like a winsome Bee Gee who has stumbled into teaching geography

… gradually, and then suddenly.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Presidential Debate Open Thread, Part Two

Presidential Debate Open Thread, Part Two

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Trump theme for the evening: Rules don’t apply to us.

(Updated) Guardian liveblog here.

Reader Interactions

390Comments

  1. 1.

    PsiFighter37

    I think Trump’s toast. Biden has not been as aggressive as I would have liked, but Trump has been even more godawful.

  2. 2.

    Elizabelle

    Trump whinging about “Obama.”

    That name does not belong in Trump’s shitwad mouth.
    Wallace points out what an excellent economy Obama built.

    Trump is lying about it. The slowest economic recovery since 1929. Who knows?

  6. 6.

    Avalune

    @PsiFighter37: I would like to agree but people inexplicably think that blow hard is a smart, good, rich, tells it like it is, eloquent etc. I don’t see how anyone can stand to listen to him for more than five seconds. ?‍♀️

  11. 11.

    Elizabelle

    WRT manufacturing:  Catherine Rampell just did a great story in the WaPost about what a disaster Trump has been there.

    She also said he has lied.  She used that word.  It is refreshing.

  14. 14.

    senyordave

    I officially gave up at 9:38 PM.  If I had to choose between watching the debate and re-runs of Car 54, where are you, I’m leaning toward Herman Muenster and Grandpa.

  19. 19.

    dmsilev

    “This clown, excuse me this President.”

    Mr Vice President, the clowns are not amused by the comparison.

  24. 24.

    Elizabelle

    If there is another debate:

    the candidates are not in the same room.  Maybe not even the same state.

    Put them in rooms elsewhere.  And CUT THE MIKE for constant interrupting.

    Now Wallace is blaming “the two of you.”

    Although he is now scolding Trump.

  27. 27.

    Hellbastard

    Turned off after 45 minutes. I just can’t take any more. Donald Trump has turned politics into such a fucking shitshow. God…

  29. 29.

    Leto

    Just a friendly reminder: all of Trumpov’s spawn are legally barred from running a charity because of the scam charity they ran.

  33. 33.

    Kay

    Will Sommer
    @willsommer
    ·15m
    Alex Jones is complaining on the InfoWars stream that Biden has to be juicing because Trump isn’t doing better: “Trump is not dominating him. Trump’s winning, but not as big of a win as we’d thought there.”

    Guffaw.

  38. 38.

    Leto

    Glad that Trumpov will help out black people by LAW AND ORDER! LAW AND ORDER! WE GOT THE POLICE! LAW AND ORDER!

  40. 40.

    Amir Khalid

    @PsiFighter37:

    I commented a few hours ago that the expectations are not the same for both sides: The worse Trump behaves, the more he lies, the less sense he makes, the more his supporters like him. Biden’s supporters actually expect him to show that he is presidential.

  46. 46.

    Anne Laurie

    Anybody else remember the night Gen. Alex Haig, serving under a temporarily incapacitated Reagan, destroyed his own reputation by screaming I’m in charge! I’m in charge! in front of the press?

    Trump’s doing that right now, except Trump supposedly *is* in charge.

  47. 47.

    Kay

    IMO, the reason Wallace is a bad moderator is he rewards breaking the rules. Wallace interrupts Biden and lets Trump run out the clock. Wallace is in control. He can punish the rulebreaker by giving Biden more time and not only is he not doing that, he’s giving the rule breaker the advantage.

    But Biden is doing fine despite the fact that all Fox people suck.

  48. 48.

    Adam L Silverman

    Part of the audio-visual play here by Biden is how the President’s behavior plays with women. Regardless of race, ethnicity, and/or religion. The President is presenting as every obnoxious, controlling asshole that every woman knows or dated or was/is married too. And Biden is letting him do so, then laughing at him, calling him a clown, telling him to shut up, calling him a liar. There is a strategy here. And it is being followed.

  51. 51.

    The Thin Black Duke

    @debbie: Exactly. Forget about Trump’s base, they’re idiots. Everybody else sane is going to be appalled by this infantile shitshow.

  59. 59.

    Kay

    Chris Hayes
    @chrislhayes
    ·10m
    The whole debate is a microcosm of our national nightmare. A complete sociopath barking at everyone as everyone tries do their best to kind of work normal.

  60. 60.

    dmsilev

    Ok, I’m going out on a limb here and guessing that Trump doesn’t actually know anything about critical race theory.

  64. 64.

    Chief Oshkosh

    Chris Wallace must be good for something. Maybe his dog loves him? Maybe he makes great pancakes on Sunday morning? Maybe he is boffo at crocheting doilies?

    But a moderator Chris ain’t.

  70. 70.

    Uncle Jeffy

    Trump talking about “core values” is the height of irony- if core values were holding, Trumpov wouldn’t have a job.

  71. 71.

    cckids

    I’m just happy that Biden did fine with what I was sure would be his hardest moment – when Trump brought up his son.  He didn’t lose his temper.

    Overall, just an incredible shitshow by drumph and wallace. Christ.

    I’m still working, and had to go get a shot of rye. God this is stressful.

  72. 72.

    Elizabelle

    Great answer from Biden about how Trump and his ilk look down on people.

    Trump talking about all the divisiveness and violence under Obama administration.

    FUCK TRUMP.  He is such a racist.  All the coded cities he calls out.

    Biden:  I am in favor of law for you.

  73. 73.

    Leto

    Law and order is radical Islam. Sweet weeping jeebus.

    Edit: I know you guys know this it’s just insane to think that they’re just going to recycle the same strat.

  74. 74.

    Llelldorin

    @MobiusKlein: Biden’s actually doing it about as well as I’ve seen—give Trump rope, then laugh at him, call him a clown, and get back you your point.

    Obama was better at it, but Biden clearly learned during his time as Obama’s VP.

  75. 75.

    Morzer

    @Timodc

    Donald Trump is an unhinged asshole who would be expelled from any school board meeting or PTA or local bar at this point. That is just the reality.

  80. 80.

    Elizabelle

    Biden:  “He wouldn’t know a suburb unless he took a wrong turn …. all these dog whistles don’t work anymore.”

    “What really is a threat to the suburbs is COVID, environment …”

    Wallace asking about “reimagining policing”.

  81. 81.

    TaMara (HFG)

    Still working with the sound off, but every time I look up, the visuals are startling. If Trump is winning this debate, it sure don’t look like it.  Joe  looks like a man whose toddler is having a meltdown in aisle 2 and he’s calmly waiting for  him to work it out, not reacting, but looking around at everyone like, “y’all have seen this before, we just have to let him cry it out.”

  82. 82.

    Leto

    @Llelldorin: I’m sure Obama is glad the he didn’t have to face this. I mean, I don’t know how HRC did it and she’s spoken about it at length. It’s just insanity.

  85. 85.

    Elizabelle

    Maybe Trump is making a good point about what fascists the law enforcement groups are.

    He’s bragging about all the ones that support him.

    That is not good.

  86. 86.

    Leto

    Great, Wallace asking Biden why he hasn’t shut down the violence; “because I don’t hold elected office”

    SWEET BIPPITY FUCKING BIP!

  91. 91.

    Morzer

    @stuartpstevens

    21% of Americans think this country is going in the right direction. Trump says it’s going in the right direction. He’s losing.

  92. 92.

    Mary G

    I had him blocked, but I couldn’t resist:

    I’ve never seen Biden seem so old or so weak. He can’t land a strong blow. He’s being successfully heckled. I want to look away.— Andrew Sullivan (@sullydish) September 30, 2020

  93. 93.

    Kay

    @Adam L Silverman:

    amy walter
    @amyewalter
    ·38m
    The reason Trump is losing women, independent voters, suburban voters is that they are exhausted by the chaos, the constant attacks and drama. He is leaning into all of that in this debate.

  98. 98.

    Chief Oshkosh

    I’m still at work and only seeing bits and pieces. Has Joe pulled out his wallet yet and asked Trump if he needs a loan?

  99. 99.

    Amir Khalid

    @MobiusKlein:

    Right now he’s just bullying Wallace, and trying to do the same to Biden. Every time the fucker interrupts, cut off his mic. Every time he lies, cut off his mic.

  101. 101.

    Avalune

    Yeah I’ll condemn the militias and white supremacists! I’ll tell them stand by. (Slightly paraphrased). That’s now how that works.

  105. 105.

    banditqueen

    The Beast is spewing nonstop–no one will remember* what he spewed, but Joe’s one-liners are awesome and those will be remembered.

    *our failed media experiment will determine that “they both talked over each other”, “sharp personal attacks”, etc, but they will also have ‘report’ on at least some of the one-liners.

  106. 106.

    Kay

    The belief that Trump has a strategy will never die:

    Nate Silver
    @NateSilver538
    ·6m
    I’m not sure why trying to fight the debate to a messy, unwatchable draw is supposed to be a good strategy for Trump when he’s 7 points behind in the polls.

    There’s no strategy. This is all Trump knows how to do.

  108. 108.

    Ken

    @Adam L Silverman: I see Ezra Klein is still making the mistake of using “strategy” in anything having to do with Trump.

    Mind you, I’m sure his staff tried to create a strategy and impress it on Trump with flashcards and sessions lasting as long as thirty minutes, but they must have known in advance it wouldn’t take.

  109. 109.

    Elizabelle

    @Kay:   Beyond true.

    And:  Trump would not disavow white supremacists.  Given the opportunity and would not do so.  Turned it around to radical leftists.

    Biden brought up the FBI director, who I guess Trump will again consider firing.

    Impeachment hoax.  Hillary Clinton.

    “There has never been an administration that has done what I have done.” — his only true point tonight, over and over.

  110. 110.

    SiubhanDuinne

    What is he talking about? “You saw what happened today with Hillary Clinton, it was a whole big con job.” What did I miss in today’s news?

  112. 112.

    Avalune

    We did and I’ll tell you something and nobody and then that’s a record the likes of very few people and he left me judges and you just don’t like and if I were his party…

    JFC get through a fucking sentence just one!

  116. 116.

    Amir Khalid

    Rick Santorum’s halftime punditry at CNN is shamelessly biased. He keeps talking about the “socialists” that Biden is supposedly pandering to.

  118. 118.

    mad citizen

    Have only read the first 30 pages or so of the Mary Trump book, but she points out how trump has brought out the worst in our country.  So right.  Pointed out many times by juicers here as well.

  119. 119.

    Leto

    “You’re Putin’s puppet, haven’t spoken to him about the bounties on the troops heads.”

    ”Hunter Biden…”

  120. 120.

    Elizabelle

    Biden:  Country is “Weaker, sicker, more divided, more violent.  Putin’s puppet.”

    Wallace scolding Trump about the interruptions.  Your campaign agreed, why won’t you comply?

  121. 121.

    C Stars

    It seems the Twitter commentariat believes that Trump is winning this thing. I can’t really stand to watch more than a few seconds at a time, but when I do watch, Trump looks red-faced and whacked out (per usual). My husband, who is a gruff dude from Kentucky who doesn’t follow politics like I do, has been chuckling through the whole thing and just said “Biden’s doing a great job of not being Trump, and Trump’s doing a great job of looking like an asshole.” So I’m gonna vibe with that.

  122. 122.

    divF

    @Amir Khalid: I can’t bear to watch this directly, but your comment makes me think of Ian Holm’s lines from “The Madness of King George” – “…if he swears and indulges in meaningless discourse, He will be restrained.”

  133. 133.

    Humanities Prof

    @SiubhanDuinne: A couple of hours ago, the Director of National Intelligence leaked a letter from 2016 that was submitted to the Senate Intelligence Committee (which promptly disregarded it because it was obviously bogus).  The letter suggested that Hillary Clinton was rumored to be in talks with various Russians about manufacturing a scandal about Trumpov.

    The letter itself contains a phrase basically saying “we have no idea whether or not any of this is true or a fabrication.”

    And if Trump were still running against Clinton, that might mean something (not because she was actually doing any such thing, but because large segments of the public and media were conditioned to believe that she might).

  136. 136.

    Soprano2

    Jesus Christ, in the next debate they have to be able to cut Trump’s mic. It’s obvious his ‘’strategy” is to constantly interrupt. He thinks that makes him look dominant. That’s it, that’s his whole strategy.

  137. 137.

    Leto

    I do like the fact that Biden addressed his son’s drug problem because it’s something very relatable to a lot of American families. Especially in the Rust Belt.

  139. 139.

    Kay

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Trump more and more speaks in Right wing internet code. I don’t think most people will understand it.

    Also, it’s kind of weird to talk about Clinton. When Obama debated Romney he didn’t talk about McCain because that’s..baffling.

  143. 143.

    Princess

    @Adam L Silverman:

    “The President is presenting as every obnoxious, controlling asshole that every woman knows or dated or was/is married to.”

    Yes, this. TBH I just listened to one clip and I started to think I might have an anxiety attack.

    The Republican convention was not going to appeal to any of us, but it was designed to be a bridge to welcome any woman who wanted to back over to vote for Trump. Trump is burning that bridge down tonight.

  150. 150.

    C Stars

    @Baud: Tonight has really brought that home to me. You can kind of see how the shouting-match outrage culture is a good fit for DT.

  151. 151.

    piratedan

    at the end of this, I hope that Biden looks Chris Wallace straight in the eye and thanks him for moderating this debate, and gives a classy thumbs up to Fox News for hosting this debate and setting it up so they could take their case to the American people.

    and then roll his eyes….

  155. 155.

    cain

    In defense of Wallace, nobody is going to be able to shut up Trump. Even if he shuts off the mic, it won’t matter, he will not back down and he will keep going. In fact, it will puff him up – he’s into dominance. This is what he’s doing. He’s trying to own the debate by out talking everyone.

  156. 156.

    Kay

    Tim Miller
    @Timodc
    ·2m
    For all the conservative media types trying to spin this as a draw. Just imagine what they would say if Barack Obama had spent half the 2012 debate attacking Craig Romney like an insane person.
    It’s a desperate ploy by someone with no positive story to tell about his admin.

    If the gross Trump hacks are only trying to spin this as a “draw” they think it was bad.

  159. 159.

    Morzer

    What the everliving fuck is Trump trying to say about countries that are forest cities?  I thought this debate was supposed to be in English.

  161. 161.

    p.a.

    From what I’m reading here, the only way I’ll investigate further is when the video of 5 year olds reading tRump’s transcript comes out.

  164. 164.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Soprano2:

    It’s obvious his ‘’strategy” is to constantly interrupt. He thinks that makes him look dominant.

    It makes him look rude, and bullying, and insolent. I guess there are people who find that attractive, but thankfully they are not part of my social circle.

  165. 165.

    TaMara (HFG)

    @C Stars: Remember, twitter is not real life. It’s just a great shortcut for the lazy media. “Well, this and that were trending on twitter”

    Meanwhile, back in MI people are standing in food lines and don’t give a fuck about twitter.

    (I give myself this speech several times a day when I insist on doomscrolling)

  167. 167.

    Adam L Silverman

    @SiubhanDuinne: DNI Ratcliffe declassified a CIA document that indicates that Russian Intelligence told them in 2016 that Hillary Clinton had created a misinformation campaign that Russia had hacked her emails and was conspiring with the Trump campaign. The Senate and House Intelligence Committees had already assessed that the Russian intelligence assessment that they gave to the CIA was not credible and was misinformation and agitprop. The CIA document also indicates they cannot verify what Russia told them. The President, Jr, Fox News, etc all jumped all over it as “OMG HRC created the Russia hoax!”.

    Here’s the write up that debunks everything:

    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/29/john-ratcliffe-hillary-clinton-russia-423022

    Director of National Intelligence John Ratcliffe on Tuesday declassified a Russian intelligence assessment that was previously rejected by Democrats and Republicans on the Senate Intelligence Committee as having no factual basis, according to two sources familiar with the matter.

    The assessment claims that Hillary Clinton, then a Democratic candidate for president, personally approved an effort “to stir up a scandal against U.S. Presidential candidate Donald Trump by tying him to Putin and the Russians’ hacking of the Democratic National Committee.” But in his letter to Graham, Ratcliffe noted that the U.S. intelligence community “does not know the accuracy of this allegation or the extent to which the Russian intelligence analysis may reflect exaggeration or fabrication.”

    The Senate Intelligence Committee issued five reports on Russia’s sweeping effort to meddle in the 2016 election to boost Trump, ranging across thousands of pages. The panel was made aware of that allegation early on in its investigation, and quickly dismissed it, the sources said.

    More at the link.

  169. 169.

    SFAW

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Director of National Disinformation Ratcliffe released an unvetted, unreviewed set of Russian disinformation which had Hillary as the REAL CULPRIT in 2016. Of course, he weaseled by doing the equivalent of “see page 437 for our correction” thing.

    So glad Moscow Mitch got him confirmed.

    ETA: Shakes fist ineffectually at Adam.

  170. 170.

    Elizabelle

    Trump actually did kind of answer the climate change question.  He believes the economy is more important.

  172. 172.

    Emma from FL

    I just realized that the biggest problem is that I hang out with politigeeks. Its like being trapped in a brothel bar (please don’t ask!) with a bunch of genius-level baseball statisticians. And while I wouldn’t want to change any of you cantankerous bastids for the world, I would like to remind you that Twitter and the real world have an infinitesimal overlap. As a suburban (well, small town technically but really a suburb of Miami) woman I can tell you that Trump did himself no favors tonight. Regular folk, i.e. not the Trumpist herd, saw a guy basically coming unglued.

  173. 173.

    Leto

    “Chris, this is the man who thinks windmills cause air cancer. You’re going to think he has any credible way to address climate change? C’mon, man!”

  179. 179.

    TriassicSands

    In the second debate, they need to put Trump in a soundproof booth*. When it isn’t his turn to speak they need to turn his microphone off. Biden is simply not articulate enough or mentally quick enough to counter Trump in an optimal way, but he has done a good job of remaining calm in the face of tremendous provocation. I watch Biden and think how much more effective either Warren or Harris** would have been, but Joe’s decency, which doesn’t appeal to tens of millions of Trump Americans, is coming through.

    The downside of debates for Biden, and this is slight when honestly compared to Trump, is that he isn’t rhetorically agile . For the most part, Biden has respected the time-to-speak rule, but he should have been nearly perfect. That increases the contrast between the two men. Wallace did call out Trump for being the worse offender and Trump has been so bad it would take a saint to not respond at all. Secretly, I want Wallace to “taze” Trump…hmm, I guess it’s not a secret, is it?

    Early on, when Wallace was struggling to control Trump, should have said, “Mr. President, with all due respect, SHUT UP.” The man is appalling. But it is that quality that seems to appeal to so many Americans.

    *Alternatively, simply give the moderator a switch to turn off Trump’s microphone. But that would probably be inadequate, since Trump would just shout. He is incapable of behaving like an adult or even a teenager with a modicum of self control. Or, a third option, gag Trump and pull the gag when it is his turn.

    ** Of course, both Warren and Harris, being women, would be roundly criticized for being shrill. Trump poses problems, because of his uncontrolled behavior, that have never before been been seen in presidential debates.

  181. 181.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Emma from FL:

    Its like being trapped in a brothel bar (please don’t ask!)

    Come on, man!

    to your larger point, I’ll repeat myself quoting somebody else:

    Josh Barro @jbarro · 44m
    By the way, I would note that Biden is handling this just fine, and that your twitter feed is composed entirely of people who did not understand Biden’s appeal in the primary, plus me.

  185. 185.

    Anya

    @Mary G: I blocked that fucking racist. I regret that his blog was one of my primary sources of information at the start of  my political awareness. Well, at least it lead me to BJ.

  191. 191.

    Wyatt Salamanca

    @SiubhanDuinne:

     

    Director of National Intelligence John Ratcliffe released Russian disinformation hours before the presidential debate Tuesday, declassifying the information without vetting or disavowing it.

    Per Politico, the information had previously been rejected by both Democratic and Republican members of the Senate Intelligence Committee because it lacked any factual basis.

    The information was revealed in a Tuesday letter to Judiciary Committee Chairman Lindsey Graham (R-SC).

    “In late July 2016, U.S. intelligence agencies obtained insight into Russian intelligence analysis alleging that U.S. Presidential candidate Hillary Clinton had approved a campaign plan to stir up a scandal against U.S. Presidential candidate Donald Trump by tying him to Putin and the Russians’ hacking of the Democratic National Committee,” Ratcliffe said in the letter.

    “The IC does not know the accuracy of this allegation or the extent to which the Russian intelligence analysis may reflect exaggeration or fabrication,” he added.

     

    h/t https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/ratcliffe-russia-disinformation-clinton-debate

  193. 193.

    PsiFighter37

    I think I am more pissed at my wife for making me turn  this on, and having to drink to keep my sanity as a result.

    FML

  198. 198.

    zhena gogolia

    He thinks telling the Proud Boys to "stand down and stand by" is condemning white supremacists?Donald Trump is the first person I've ever seen rape a debate. Fuck this lying piece of shit and whatever Hills Have Eyes garbage that support him#Debates2020 #debate— J-L Cauvin (@JLCauvin) September 30, 2020

  204. 204.

    Emma from FL

    @Morzer: ‘Cause you’re not a librarian at an ALA conference in New Orleans? And trapped is… a moral figleaf. I was having a great time.

  209. 209.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Princess: I close very quickly on what other people tell me during conversations. So I’m attuned to this because I’ve had to train myself not to do it/not do it as much as I’m naturally inclined to do so I don’t come off as a complete asshole that just talks over everyone.

  217. 217.

    Bill Arnold

    @TriassicSands:

    In the second debate, they need to put Trump in a soundproof booth*. When it isn’t his turn to speak they need to turn his microphone off.

    If there is another debate, the moderator must have a kill switch for each microphone.

  222. 222.

    mali muso

    Meanwhile in a bid to maintain sanity, I am back to gazing at the ActBlue dial spin ever faster.  Out of curiosity, I put on a timer. It’s averaging about $100k per minute.  Should be interesting to see the next fundraising numbers.

  224. 224.

    trnc

    @Elizabelle: Trump actually did kind of answer the climate change question. He believes the economy is more important.

    Repubs always claim that environmental protections are anti-business and they’re always wrong, but unfortunately some people still lap up that BS.

  225. 225.

    Elizabelle

    Biden:  Is [the country] going to change or is it going to be four more years of these lies?

    Trump now.  Talking about Crooked Hillary Clinton and a coup.

  230. 230.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Kay:

    He’s clearly not speaking to the likes of us. And I’m not trained enough to put up my hand and say “Oh, stewardess, I speak Trumpov.”

  232. 232.

    Elizabelle

    Biden did miss an opportunity to remind that we might not have an immediate result Election Night.

    Trump just went there.  We are going to know November 3rd.

    Talking about a fraud and a shame.  In states run by Democrats.

  237. 237.

    Morzer

    @SarahLongwell25

    Biden may not as sharp as he’s ever been. But Trump is a barking lunatic. What American wants four more years of this babbling maniac?

  243. 243.

    Elizabelle

    Trump wants people to go in and vote.  Like they used to.

    All this crap about “solicited ballots.”

    Now saying that ballots are being dumped in rivers.

  248. 248.

    Percysowner

    @Anya: Sully was one of my first political blogs. I’m not ashamed because I found him when he was one of the few Republicans/Conservatives that actually condemned Bush’s regime of torture, so he came off as principled. The more I read him, the more I realized that it was the ONLY thing he care about that wasn’t directly related to well, Andrew Sullivan. His blog led me here and I am grateful to him for that. Nonetheless, he is a bigot and an all around awful person, who (I think) still disapproves of torture, which makes him better than a LOT of Republicans, both then and now.

    Honestly, when I first started reading Sully and BJ I would have thought that eventually I would leave BJ because John was on his tear about Cindy Shaheen. I saw her as a mother who was driven by grief and gave her a lot of slack and John was less tolerant. But John was willing to look at the world and change his views and here I am years later, one of the jackals.

  254. 254.

    Anya

    @Baud: Twitter is all about “owing” “crushing it” or “destroying” someone. Subtlety doesn’t work well with Twitter. They like outright brutality. In that they’re like Trump voters. They like bullying or responding in kind. So, anything that twitter likes, means that regular voters will hate it. If Twitter thinks Trump won regular people will hate him. The problem is blue check journalists are influenced by twitter.

  255. 255.

    danielx

    @SFAW:

    Well, see, that’s where part of the fire hazard comes in, you have to burn off the fusel oils. With better grade stuff you don’t have that problem.

    Seriously, going to have to fall back on beer for next debate. Old Rasputin by preference.

  257. 257.

    Ken

    @PPCLI: It doesn’t have the undertone of pity for Queeg.  And I can’t imagine anyone wanting to give the equivalent of José Ferrer’s final speech, turning it all around.

  261. 261.

    Elizabelle

    Chris Wallace notes it could be days or weeks until Election count is done.  That at least 8 states don’t even allow opening the ballots earlier to count.

    Trump:  “Bad things happen in Philadelphia.”

    Trump accusing others of cheating, and whinging over and over about the ballots found in a wastebasket.

    Chris Wallace sounds rattled.

  264. 264.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    Once I left the TV, I took a Xanax to calm down.

    Now I think I’ll watch something more edifying, like porn or some cheesy clips of pratfalls.

  267. 267.

    mad citizen

    We knew all this about trump in 2016.  Now he is just older, oranger, and 4 more years into his dementia journey.  Christ what an asshole.

  280. 280.

    Wyatt Salamanca

    @Leto:

    I know Trump can’t be held accountable for all the bullshit he spews, but hopefully he loses because four more years of this asshole would be a fucking nightmare.

  286. 286.

    Morzer

    @Leto: If the choice was between dancing naked and blind drunk in a minefield and watching another minute of Donald Trump “debating”… well, sometimes choices are surprisingly easy to make.

  288. 288.

    Redshift

    @Morzer: He made up the thing about forest cities a couple of weeks ago. He insisted that in Europe they have forest cities, by which he seemed to mean cities in the middle of forests, and they don’t have any problems with fires, so obviously California’s doing something wrong and it’s their fault, and not any of that climate stuff.

    The reality is that Europe has no such thing, and they’ve had plenty of problems with wildfires in recent years, but reality has no place in “the world is what I say it is.”

  289. 289.

    Leto

    Man, Brian Williams reporting how Trumpov told the Proud Fuckknuckles to stand down and standby. Getting fact checked by Williams… oof.

  292. 292.

    sdhays

    I hope Biden is ready during one of these debates to turn to the moderator and just say, “<Moderator>, I have no idea what this man was just attempting to talk about. Do you?”

  294. 294.

    trnc

    Tapper on CNN calling out DT for his BS. Pretty good.

    HOLY CRAP – Dana Bash – “That was a shit show.” Every once in a while, I can still be surprised.

  295. 295.

    Keith P.

    Wolf Blitzer says he doesn’t expect there to be another presidential debate after tonight.

    Dana Bash says “That was a shitshow.”

  300. 300.

    Llelldorin

    Terms like “won” or “lost” don’t even apply to that shitshow. Biden survived. That’s about the best that could possibly happen.

  305. 305.

    Wyatt Salamanca

    Jake Tapper is furious, said it was the worst debate he’d ever seen and said Trump deserved most of the blame.  Dana Bash called the debate a shitshow and wasn’t bleeped.

  306. 306.

    Rina99

    Well, that happened. Trump seemed manic and panicked. No one can contain that wall of bullshit consistently,  but Biden managed to get his digs in. Trump is fighting for his freedom, which made him even worse than he was against Hillary.

  310. 310.

    Kattails

    @Adam L Silverman: I also wonder whether Biden is taking his time and taking the measure of how to deal with this next time. They surely knew Wallace would be useless. Trump won’t change, because he’s incapable of it, and that leaves him vulnerable to someone who can figure out his own best way of tossing the opponent next round.

  314. 314.

    Emma from FL

    @Elizabelle: Chris Wallace is,basically, a sane person trying to deal with an exploding case of self-pitying narcissism that happens to have one of the most important titles in the world attached to his last name. In Florida, any regular person acting like Trump would have been Baker acted right there on stage.

  316. 316.

    Matt McIrvin

    @C Stars: FWIW, the people I follow on Twitter are mostly talking about how horrifying Trump is, not much insight on who they think “won” except everyone loses.

  318. 318.

    Leto

    Nicole Wallace calling out Chris for being a shitty moderator. Said Trumpov is an abuser, Chris was abused. Said Chris definitively had choices on what to do and just failed. Good.

  321. 321.

    trnc

    I’ve been defending Wallace some, but Tapper made a good point about him not saying earlier, “Mr Prez, you are violating the rules agreed to by your campaign.” Apparently, not until 1 hour 13 minutes in.

  323. 323.

    Kay

    @Llelldorin:

    Trump had to damage Biden in the first one and he didn’t. I don’t know if he damaged himself- I can’t imagine still supporting him at this point- but he didn’t hurt Biden and he had to.

    The other debates won’t matter. Had to be this one.

  327. 327.

    MisterForkbeard

    @Wyatt Salamanca: I have some 20-ish friends doing the “that was a shitshow, no one won it. God save America” thing.

    I think this might have been a partial goal? Fuck the thing up so much that Biden can’t give a ‘normal’ debate?

  329. 329.

    Chris Johnson

    He told Proud Boys to stand BACK and stand by. Stand down is different.

    I’m very happy with how Biden came across.

  330. 330.

    Eljai

    @Leto: I appreciate that she brought up abuse.  ‘Cause I kind of feel like I’ve been held at gun point by a meth-addled maniac.

  332. 332.

    Morzer

    @Kay: I think this is probably a win on points for Biden, but even a draw is bad for Trump.  Biden sounded like someone thinking about the American people and taking the job seriously. Trump sounded like that annoying spoilt brat who won’t shut the fuck up on long car journeys.

  334. 334.

    Baud

    I think it was good of Biden to say at the end that voters should ignore Trump’s bluster about the election.

  336. 336.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    Hmm I didn’t see it by it sounds like the Sons of Broder have their work cut out for them to both sides this.

  338. 338.

    BruceFromOhio

    I admire all of you for your willingness, ability, and fortitude to sit through the mental equivalent of being shot out of a cannon, multiple times. Safely in my study reading Wikipedia and spending money on ActBlue is all I got.

    Sweet dreams, jackals.

  340. 340.

    mad citizen

    @Keith P.: national review guy just wondered the same on NBC regarding no more debates.  Really, no one needs this.  We are all red or blue team, or as LP puts it: trump or america.

  342. 342.

    Kay

    Fred Wellman
    @FPWellman
    ·25m
    That attack on Hunter Biden was beyond pale and another lie. He failed a drug test as a newly commissioned Reserve office. He was Administratively Discharged not Dishonorably. We have an opiod crisis and the President is smearing a recovering addict for political points.

    I genuinely wonder about this. There are so many grieving parents of addicts. You just cannot imagine the pain these people have been through. I live in a very conservative area and it just isn’t done anymore, because everyone knows someone. Most people know a lot of someones. We’ve all been to funerals.

  343. 343.

    catclub

    @Morzer: I think this is probably a win on points for Biden, but even a draw is bad for Trump

     
    I agree, and I cannot see undecided voters thinking they want 4 more years of trump, after that. Trump was still all about riling up his base. Biden was trying to reach undecided voters.

  344. 344.

    cain

    this link is talking about PBS and of course we had to have one both sides because both sides were mean. When one guy turns personal and is on the attack constantly..

  345. 345.

    tom

    @Percysowner: that’s pretty much how I wound up at BJ. I started reading Sully because he wasn’t buying W’s bullshit about the Iraq war. Sully mentioned John Cole as a “principled conservative” also opposed to the war, which is how I wound up here. I stopped reading Sullivan years ago, but BJ is one of my daily must-reads.

  348. 348.

    Jeffro

    @Keith P.: I hope the Biden campaign only has one catch: “the moderator/s have to cut the mic on any candidate talking over another, or I’m out of here”

  352. 352.

    Jeffro

    @Keith P.: I hope the Biden campaign only has one catch: “the moderator/s have to cut the mic on any candidate talking over another, or I’m out of here”

     

    @Leto: I love the appropriateness of “abuser” and I hope Biden & Co use it more going forward

  357. 357.

    L85NJGT

    @Morzer:

    The twinkle in Joe’s eye is worth +.5 to +1 point.

    Trump’s asshole meltdown -1.5

    National average aggregates will be Biden +10 by the end of the week.

  358. 358.

    Kattails

    I have on my fridge a yellowing clip of a Wiley Miller/Non Sequitur comic from prior to the 2016 election. The main caption reads: “Climbing the new ladder of success” and the drawing is of a bum on a street corner holding out his hat. Next to him is a “thermometer” board (Just like BJ!) that says “help me reach my goal!” from the bottom up, the lines are “babbling wino–prophet of doom–blowhard in bar–blowhard on radio–Donald Trump”.

    This cartoon has never lost its relevance.

  360. 360.

    trnc

    @Jeffro: I love the appropriateness of “abuser” and I hope Biden & Co use it more going forward

    Yup. “He’s an abuser, but I’ll stand up to him when he tries to beat up on anyone who disagrees with him.”

  361. 361.

    MoCA Ace

    @Danielx: Chugging high grade whiskey? Barbarian.

    It’s a sip damn it… one continuous, high-volume sip.   And don’t judge me.  Without alcohol I never would have made it through the first 20 minutes.  I made the mistake of tuning in for the fucking post-game.  Don’t put that bottle away just yet!

  362. 362.

    Elizabelle

    @Leto:   That’s a good point, about an abuser and the abused.

    It fits with Wallace.  Cut the fucker’s mike.  Insist he follow the rules his campaign agreed to.

    Although:  I think Trump did himself a world of hurt.  Watch in the upcoming days and week.

  363. 363.

    Elizabelle

    @schrodingers_cat:   Why I am not watching PBS.  Or listening to NP — don’t hit us again! – R.

    Fuck ’em.

    I do love hearing that Dana Bash called the debate a shitshow.  Gonna go look up that clip now.

  364. 364.

    Sab

    @Kay: My stepson is a recovered addict and he put us and himself through hell for years. He got into it because his homelife sucked and he was desparately unhappy.

    Hunter Biden got into drugs because he spent much of his childhood on pain medication after a near fatal accident that killed his mother and baby sister. He was addicted to pain killers before he even had a choice because he was an accident victim in a hospital giving him pain meds he needed.

  368. 368.

    Bill Arnold

    @Elizabelle:

    Although: I think Trump did himself a world of hurt.

    Biden was not shy about pushing Trump’s buttons. Amplifying an asshole meltdown is a “make them overreach” tactic, perhaps deliberate.
    There’s been a lot of that going on vs Rs, as a generalized tactic. Seem to work well on them.

  371. 371.

    Sab

    @Kay: Almost all my stepson’s friends from high school are dead. Sweet kids. Not the ravaging monsters you see on TV. Just sweet stupid kids who wanted to relax and get high and waste their lives. And they did.

  373. 373.

    Bill Arnold

    @Morzer:

    Trump sounded like that annoying spoilt brat who won’t shut the fuck up on long car journeys.

    He sounded like a propaganda-addled Dunning-Kruger afflicted RW nut job, on drugs that amplified his unattractive belligerence.

  374. 374.

    TriassicSands

    @dmsilev:

    If only that could be done.

    I’m a horrible person, but I keep hoping Trump’s head will explode. On screen.

    Clearly, the moderator has to exercise greater control. For the benefit of all the bothsiderists out there, the moderator can exercise greater control over both sides. Of course, that will be a simple job in the case of Biden. With Trump it will be non-stop.

    A WaPo commentator just referred to “lots of bullying, lots of trolling.” Guess which candidate he was talking about? Another WaPo commentator just referred to it as “unwatchable.”

    Joe Biden didn’t “win” this debate; Trump lost it…except with all of his supporters. But no one could reasonably expect Trump being Trump to cost him any support among his followers.

    A new slogan was coined tonight. Trump to the white supremacist Proud Boys: “Stand back and standby.” Standby for the day when Trump has to call you to hit the streets with all your guns because the Democrats “stole the election” by coming out to vote in greater numbers than Republicans.

    I was proud of Joe for calling “the president of the United States” a “clown.” I did think that he waited too long to tell Trump to shut up, but that was Wallace’s fault for not demanding much earlier that Trump just STFU. Before the Trump presidency there was always a level of “respect” for the president that would preclude the possibility of a moderator telling him to “shut up.” But Trump, the destroyer of norms, is such a POS that I think Wallace should have used exactly those words. (Minus the “F” part.)

    My conclusion: Biden gets a fair grade — C+ or B-*. Trump? The worst performance in a presidential debate ever — a clear Z–.

    *It’s hard to imagine how anyone could do a lot better against Trump. Greater rhetorical skill would help.

  377. 377.

    MCA1

    @catclub: I don’t even give him that much credit.  There’s no strategy here, like appealing to his base.  Trying to expand his coalition or reach out to hesitant or undecided voters could never be a possibility for him.  Not only is it not in his repertoire, it’s not even a thing that he recognizes.  There is not now and never has been any strategy.  There is no inner life or self-reflection, which would be necessary for contemplating a strategy.  It’s all tactics, all the time.  He just so happens to be the perfect totem for the hatred, self-loathing, racism, sexism, and misdirected anger of approximately 70 million of our fellow citizens.  But that’s the extent of it.

    A debate involving him is nothing but his narcissism turned loose on stage.  The one and only thing that mattered to Donald J. Trump about this evening was being able to convince himself on the way home that he hadn’t been shamed, that he’d been victimized, or that he’d dominated another human being.  It’s getting over, 24/7/365 for this primative bunch of mechanical impulses.  Recognizing that he’s losing an electoral race, understanding that some people might be swayable, realizing that the majority of us do not perceive him to be the greatest leader in human history?  Those things do not exist in the dank swamp of his bottomless, needy narcissism.  His moment-to-moment perception of whether or not he’s safe from shame or exposure is the entirety of his conscious universe.

  378. 378.

    danielx

    Annnd….wait for it….

    I’ve never seen Biden seem so old or so weak. He can’t land a strong blow. He’s being successfully heckled. I want to look away.
    — Andrew Sullivan (@sullydish) September 30, 2020

    Color me unsurprised.

  381. 381.

    A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)

    @tom: Exactly.  I found Sully because he was against Bush’s torture, and I ended up ignoring most of his other stuff before just moving over to BJ (especially when he would start in on conservative British political thinkers – who cares).  I did enjoy the weekly feature of “where was this picture taken” and the amazing detective work people would do to figure it out.  But haven’t read him in more than 15 years now I guess it is.  John already had Lily when I found BJ but I’ve been here for everything else.

  382. 382.

    Ruckus

    @zhena gogolia:

    He was 4 yrs younger, less demented and hadn’t screwed the pooch as bad as he has as president. He also has seemingly had experienced a bit of luck pushing women around, and probably has never really tried to be as obvious as he was with Hilary. How would she have fared if she had turned to him and said something like – go back to your place? She didn’t expect him to be quite the ass he was. Joe didn’t seem to be expecting him to be any less an ass than he was.

  383. 383.

    Jinchi

    @MobiusKlein: Gish Gallop – how can you fight it?

    You demonstrate that the person is a liar. Pick a demostrable falsehood and crush it. The Achilles heel of the Gish Gallop is that even the audience can’t keep track of all the lies being spouted. So you don’t have to refute every point, you just need to have the takeaway be “Trump lied.”

    It sounds like Biden was working towards this with his “Everybody knows he’s a liar” comment, which is close but not quite there. But I didn’t watch the debate, so I don’t know if he drove the point home.

  384. 384.

    The Lodger

      If the president thinks his best case is made in urine he can have at it,” Kate Bedingfield, Biden’s deputy campaign manager, said…

    That’s exactly what Trump did tonight.

  386. 386.

    Ruckus

    @Wyatt Salamanca:

    Why can’t he be held responsible?

    Who is going to certify him as insane or as a possible harm to others? Who is going to step in? None of his sycophants. None of his followers. It would have to be a court or the VP/cabinet, a 25th. And that isn’t going to happen. So it’s on him.

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