Things here have slowed down a bit, so I could refocus on this project. I enjoyed reading up on some of the newest technologies… next up, I think, will be Grids – improving existing grids and advancements in micro-grids – and whatever else I find out. If you have resources on that, share in the comments if you like. In personal news, we may be adding a new feathered family member soon…
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In 1931, shortly before his death, Thomas Edison said to his friend Henry Ford, “I’d put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don’t have to wait till oil and coal run out before we tackle that. I wish I had more years left!”
When I started putting together a solar post, I was stymied. I had an idea of what harnessing the sun should look like and I was discouraged by what I viewed as the lack of progress in the area of photovoltaics. Then I dropped my preconceived notions and began looking for the latest innovations. And I found some exciting transformations. I’ve put together a few of the new technologies I found.
Floatovoltaics are being used widely in China and Japan, but the USA has been slow to adopt the technology. But it is a promising way to harvest energy from sunlight.
“Floatovoltaics cost less to install than traditional land-based solar panels“, said Robert Spencer, a data scientist at the lab and the leader of the research. “In part because there’s no need to clear land or treat soil. And research shows that the natural cooling effect of the water below can boost the solar panels’ power production by up to 22 percent.”
Floatovoltaics offer benefits beyond more efficient power generation.
By limiting air circulation and blocking sunlight that would otherwise reach the surfaces of reservoirs, the study noted, they can dramatically limit the amount of water lost to evaporation. In addition, they can help prevent harmful algae blooms, which produce toxins that can sicken people and animals and raise drinking water treatment costs.
“The biggest benefits to installing floatovoltaics would be seen in the arid southwestern states that are dealing with scarce water resources,” Spencer said.
For large scale energy generation, Concentrating Solar Power installations are key in lowering the cost per kilowatt-hour, to a predicted five cents per KWH by 2030 in the US.
Concentrating Solar Power 101
CSP technologies use mirrors to reflect and concentrate sunlight onto receivers that collect solar energy and convert it to heat. Thermal energy can then be used to produce electricity via a turbine or heat engine driving a generator. Because CSP technologies collect solar energy and convert it to thermal energy that can be stored before powering a generator, they can be used either as a flexible provider of electricity, such as a natural gas “peaker” plant, or as a baseload source of electricity similar to a traditional nuclear or coal plant. CSP can also be deployed as fossil-fuel backup/hybridization that allows existing fossil fuel projects to run cleaner while operating at the same or lower cost. In the United States alone, between 11 and 21 gigawatts of CSP could be built and integrated into existing fossil fuel plants in the United States to reduce their carbon emissions – that’s enough electricity to power to between 3 million and 6 million homes.
One of the limitations on photovoltaics is solar panel efficiency. There are several innovative technologies, mostly involving layering different elements in a single cell to improve efficiency.
That efficiency might be coming. There is a worldwide race, from San Francisco to Shenzhen, to make a more efficient solar cell.
Today’s average commercial solar panel converts 17-19% of the light energy hitting it to electricity. This is up from 12% just 10 years ago. But what if we could boost this to 30%?
More efficient solar cells mean we could get much more than today’s 2.4% of global electricity supply from the sun.
Solar is already the world’s fastest growing energy technology. Ten years ago, there were only 20 gigawatts of installed solar capacity globally – one gigawatt being roughly the output of a single large power station.
By the end of last year, the world’s installed solar power had jumped to about 600 gigawatts.
Even with the disruption caused by Covid-19, we will probably add 105 gigawatts of solar capacity worldwide this year, forecasts London-based research company, IHS Markit.
There are some solid breakthroughs coming in photovoltaic efficiency, including perovskite solar cells, which shows great promise.
…perovskite solar cells aim to increase the efficiency and lower the cost of solar energy. Perovskite PVs indeed hold promise for high efficiencies, as well as low potential material & reduced processing costs. A big advantage perovskite PVs have over conventional solar technology is that they can react to various different wavelengths of light, which lets them convert more of the sunlight that reaches them into electricity.
Moreover, they offer flexibility, semi-transparency, tailored form factors, light-weight and more. Naturally, electronics designers and researchers are certain that such characteristics will open up many more applications for solar cells.
Incorporating photovoltaics into a variety of locations will expand the ability to generate electricity . Parking garages, commercial rooftops, sidewalks and even highway noise barriers.
Highway photovoltaic noise barriers (PVNBs) represent the combination of noise barrier systems and photovoltaic systems in order to
mitigate traffic noise while simultaneously producing renewable energy. First deployed in Switzerland in 1989, PVNBs are now found in
several countries where transportation agencies have sought ways to find multiple uses of their infrastructure. The PVNB experience
documented in literature and supplemented through a series of interviews provides evidence suggesting that noise barriers can be
designed to produce renewable energy without compromising their abilities to reduce noise, and do so safely. The business case for a
PVNB often hinges on the availability of subsidies or other incentives that promote the renewable energy market. Although the first
highway PVNB is yet to be constructed domestically, at least two State Departments of Transportation are currently working with
partners to pursue PVNB pilots in the United States. Given the substantial extent of noise barriers in the country, the potential for solar
energy production on American noise barriers is likely at least 400 Gigawatt hours annually, roughly equivalent to the annual electricity
use of 37,000 homes, and perhaps much higher.
This is a lot of information for one post, and it’s barely scratched the surface of the latest innovations. The more we improve the ways to harness the sun, the quicker we will be able to move away from coal, natural gas and oil.
x-posted at LivingLightly
cain
400 gigawatts! Great Scott! :D
I work for a hardware company that is part of the circular economy – so I get to not only do my open source gig, but be involved reducing e-waste by giving high end datacenter components a new life while also lowering the carbon footprint.
But some of these green datacenter companies are doing some very interesting things with the output of datacenters (eg heat) – power greenhouses, or reduce heating bills etc.
We could make datacenters smaller, and start embedding them into depressed neighborhoods, and use that output to make starting a business cheaper. All kinds of cool stuff. This whole thing with solar energy just sweetens the deal.
A wonderful time to see us move to the green economy!
Incidentally, me and a friend are starting a non-profit to do lobbying for the above – also things like “right to repair” and various other things
ETA very disappointed that I’m the first comment. The #2 is so elusive.
cain
Where are you all? Good grief. I expect better performance.. but I suspect most of you are still digesting the content.
ETA ohhhhhh yeaaaaaahh… number two, BABEEE! NUMBER TWO! WOO! WOO! WOO! WOO!
TaMara (HFG)
@cain: I definitely want to hear more. This sounds exciting. And it takes a while for people to see new posts… ;-) Or much like David’s, not a lot of comments.
SFBayAreaGal
@cain: Woohoo
cain
@TaMara (HFG):
Which one? The lobbying idea or the circular economy/datacenter?
The circular datacenter bit is pretty awesome because you build a supply chain that pretty much region centric. So in the U.S. my company processes about 18,000 components a month (eg processors, memory and so forth) and so lots of opportunity – even though it is 3-4 years old, it’s the difference of 48 cores vs 24 cores on a silicon die. Who cares? For most folks, that is a lot and the price is way cheaper.
Biden already was talking about how he wanted supply chains that are U.S. based and also focused on green energy/green economy. We are poised to be in a good position – but we need to do some lobbying. My work doesn’t even know I’m doing this. :-)
There are other things as well – when we contract people to do websites, software, that should all have open licenses as it is made with public money. So I expect to build a fairly broad coalition – but we will definitely be having some pushback. It will be interesting.
gwangung
Well, damn…that’s the sort of stuff that becomes “Duh! Common sense” in a few years.
I’m pretty sure most people are working off of state-of-the-art-that-was-ten-years ago….a lot of the naysayers (which tend to be on the conservative side)(ahem) are working off of decades old data and aren’t aware of what solar power can do NOW, let alone five years from now.
TaMara (HFG)
@cain: Both of course, but love the circular datacenter info
Kelly
Hmm, seems like an advantage of floating PV panels on a hydropower reservoir grid connections will already be close by. Hydro generation could vary to smooth power output.
SFBayAreaGal
For you Scotch Whisky drinkers
Scotch whisky distilleries to use renewable electricity created by underwater turbines.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/02/04/whisky-distilleries-to-use-electricity-created-by-underwater-turbines-.html
NotMax
Switching to electric vehicles negates the need for noise barriers?
//
CaseyL
“Floatovoltaics” sound wonderful – but I’m not sure how many communities still have above-surface, open air reservoirs. (And to have them in the SW sounds, frankly, insane.). I would not want to see them deployed in natural water areas (rivers, lakes).
I’d like to see a big push to covering almost any “roof” with photovoltaics: stadium domes, office tower roofs, apartment buildings… all conveying the energy to decentralized converters (underground?) that can then power individual blocks, streets, neighborhoods.
Kirk Spencer
Years ago I was reading that the major burden for home-owner renewable power (solar or wind) was power storage. Because not only is production not 24/7, but the bulk of energy is used when generation is low. (Nights, bad weather, etc.)
So since I’ve not been paying attention, is that any closer to a solution?
Bill Arnold
Hm. Think floatovoltaics could keep some of the smell of manure lagoons in place?
https://environmentamerica.org/sites/environment/files/AccidentsFactsheet-ManureLagoons.pdf
7000 acres in North Carolina, at say 250 KW per acre (low), that’s about 1750 megawatts.
(I am not being entirely serious. Vegetarian, for one. :-)
(There are a lot of huge reservoirs that would be more suitable.)
Steve in the ATL
@NotMax: depends on the volume of everyone’s car stereos
guachi
@TaMara (HFG):
David Anderson’s health care posts may generate few comments but they are probably highest in raw information.
I’m glad he doesn’t see lack of comments as lack of interest.
The Moar You Know
@NotMax: Most vehicle noise comes from the tires on the pavement. The engine only really comes into play at under 15 mph.
Which is why Teslas now have noisemakers on them at slow speed. Good for kids, dogs, cats, that sort of thing. They’re needed. But my neighbor’s makes noise as he drifts into the cul de sac, as it should. I gotta say I love Teslas but goddamn that noise sucks after a while.
The Lodger
@Bill Arnold: Floatovoltaics on a manure lagoon? How could the panels stay clean enough to be efficient?
dmsilev
One thing that’s worth noting about the efficiency of solar cells is that the 15-20% efficient panels are used not because they’re the best available, but because they’re cheap. You can certainly buy 30 or 40% efficient panels, but it’s cheaper to buy, install, and maintain 2x as many of the less-efficient ones. Since cost per kW-hr is the main goal, especially for utilities looking to stamp down umpteen acres of panels at a time, that wins out.
Perovskite-based cells are a very interesting area to watch, but there’s a lot of development work still needed to go from lab-scale performance to something that can be made in bulk and can perform well in the real world.
guachi
@Kirk Spencer:
Not that I’m aware of, no. You can check out California’s energy grid in real time to see this effect daily as there’s a heavy surge of power usage before dawn and then a dramatic increase in solar production.
Summer weekends there is so much solar that it generates more than 100% of California’s demand by midday but there is still that early morning surge.
Hungry Joe
@NotMax: As Moar said, lot of road noise comes from tires (once the vehicle gets up around 15-20 mph). That’s why some electric cars have (safety) sound generators that switch off once they get up to speed.
dmsilev
@Kirk Spencer: Batteries are getting cheaper every year, and that’s the main cost for a home storage system. Not the whole cost; things like installation and the control systems contribute, but cheaper batteries are a big deal.
Leto
When we were living overseas, AFN (Armed Forces Network) ran these commercials telling how DoD scientists had developed liquid spray on solar cells so that troops, in austere locations, could keep their comm gear charged and ready. I found an article from the University of Central Florida about the same subject:
Spanky
@NotMax: Tire noise is surprisingly high, from what I’ve noticed from the Teslas I’ve seen.
Redshift
For sources, David Roberts (late of Vox, now with his own independent Volts Media newsletter) is my go-to for a lot of this.
Leto
@Spanky: with how much they cost, you’d think they’d have better sound insulation. That’s one of the things I love about my BMW. It’s so quiet.
cain
@TaMara (HFG):
oh yeah.. I have a 4 node cluster sitting in my office with 96 cores. :) Lots of fun stuff to play with.
Dan B
@CaseyL: Floatavoltaics work in some locations but not others. They are exciting because many population centers are near water. Ports have enough shelter from extreme waves to be viable. Rooftop retrofits are expensive but most of the resistance is lack of familiarity, upfront costs, uncertain financing, skeptical financiers (changing at record pace as PV becomes “Hot”). There are great innovations for many situations. Rooftop will have a role but may not be as universal for retrofits as we’d like. But new construction! There are low efficiency but super cheap window films. And there are are many more.
cain
@NotMax:
Also allows for solar chargers on the cars themselves. If you’re hanging around outside or driving – might as well be charging.
TaMara (HFG)
@guachi: I think he understands that we read them, even if we don’t comment. I feel that about respite threads – I’m not concerned with comments, just with making sure everyone has a break once in a while.
Spanky
I recall reading about perovskite PV cells a number of years ago, but they haven’t seemed to have come along towards commercialization. Just googled a bit and found a DOE article:
Hoping for a breakthrough here or somewhere else that gets us to 30%+ efficiency.
Spanky
@Leto: To be clear, I’m talking about hearing them as a pedestrian. I’m way to plebian to have even been in one.
dmsilev
@Leto: University press offices tend to be very very good at overhyping the impact of discoveries. Take with appropriate grains of salt.
In this case, the researchers used Machine Learning techniques to sift through previous results on perovskite materials and basically looked for patterns to try to identify potential new materials that might perform well. A fine result, but at best it’s saying “here are some promising materials that might perform well.” Until someone actually makes those materials and measures their properties, we don’t really know how the computer model performs at prediction.
Dan B
Another exciting development is Agrivoltaics. Panels are mounted high enough off the ground to work underneath. Plants underneath in hot sunny climates are shaded. They cool the solar panels much as Floatovoltaics. In Tucson (Hello Piratedan!) They’ve managed to grow vegetables and fruits year round that would burn up in summer and suffer from frost and wind in winter.
FYI solar PV efficiciency drops dramatically at high temperatures. Cool is good.
NotMax
@The Moar You Know
The snark tag included was a sign I was joshing.
Going non-snark, there’s some tweaking to do on sound required to be present at low speeds.
And then there’s this from last year, which with multiple vehicles in proximity potentially creates a cacophony.
counterfactual
I hang out at the forums at Arstechnica.com. At least there, they consider renewables a solved problem, it’s just getting it installed. One poster has access to ERCOT statistics (the Texas electrical grid). IIRC, everything permitted in 2020 was wind or solar, and the bottleneck in new projects is getting all the paperwork through in Austin. At Feb 2021 bid rates, solar and wind are considerably cheaper than coal an cheaper than natural gas. The limit in grid-scale batteries big enough to stabilize the grid for a few minutes is in lithium-ion battery production.
TaMara (HFG)
@Redshift: Mine, too. And Michael Mann and several others really keep me hopeful.
Mart
@gwangung: I have toured a wind blade plant and their generator plant. Really cool. Years ago they were competitive with coal. Coal costs so much to ship, crush, and dispose of fly ash. Plus all the toxins to deal with. I see solar roof installations all over the place. Some fire and rip up the roof concerns, but they are getting better. When talking to conservative colleagues stress that green energy creates tons of good paying jobs. After you manufacture and erect, you need to maintain. A coal plant with 3-350 MW generators only needs a couple hundred employees and contractors per shift. You need about 430 wind turbines to equal those three generators.
Dan B
@Dan B: University of Arizona at Tucson is one pioneer in Agrivoltaics. Plants under the panels cooled the PV. Irrigation needs were greatly reduced.
And it’s fairly well known that Agricultural land has high solar potential.
Leto
@dmsilev: right; I don’t know much more past what the commercial touted, and can’t really find much more on it past a cursory search. Just thought it was a really interesting idea because one of the things we’ve done is straddled our soldiers with a ton of extra weight in just batteries to keep their comm gear up. Modern tactical comm gear eats through batteries. We’ve packed so much shit into such a small form that it’s power intensive, not to mention heat. So anything we can do to lighten that load is a welcome relief.
TaMara (HFG)
I’ve got to feed all the critters…
Ruckus
I follow a Y Tube channel called FullyCharged. If you are interested in the subject it is an interesting place to check out. For a little more background involved channel Transport Evolved has some interesting information, possibly not quite as well presented but very informative. FullyCharged is run by Robert Llewellyn, a name some might recognize as he is a British actor, the channel is not just about transportation but about the use of renewable energy. The general direction is vehicles, but it is not the only one. This will lead you in other directions by other Y Tube channels, some of which are extremely useful, some of which are a waste of time.
I will say that China, the EU and now that they no longer belong to that the UK are working very hard and fast to eliminate as much oil usage as possible for electrical generation, transportation, housing and switching to renewables, solar and wind specifically and with storage in many different ways.
Some areas in this country are doing the same but of course much of our political power only has vision in their rear view mirrors, because nothing they want to do is looking forward. (The last 4 yrs half our political “leaders” were only interested in going back 160 yrs so they could fight the civil war over. Assholes)
Ken
There’s something about David’s insurance posts that makes me want to stick to thoughtful responses. Same with Anne Laurie’s COVID updates.
Practically mutes me, in comparison with most other posts.
Mary G
Our local high school built a structure that looks like a garden trellis over their parking lot, which is huge, then covered it with solar panels.
Cars stay cleaner and cooler, school gets cheap power. Win/win. All of the soon to be abandoned malls in the suburbs of America could do the same with their acres of empty asphalt.
OC Register says students at another high school suggested it, made it happen by incessantly nagging the school board, and all six high schools in the district are closing in on having them.
The students did a lot of financial work to show that a big gob of money could be saved, which got the attention and acceptance from the right wingers. Kids encourage me these days.
Ruckus
@SFBayAreaGal:
Hydro electric dams create power using water pressure and turbines and have been doing that for a lot of decades. Of course at the size it takes a lot of water movement to create the electricity, so a lot of land area and water. Smaller turbines could be put in water mains and grid connected, and with modern electronics controlled so that they don’t overpower the grid or slow the water stream too much.
Dan B
@counterfactual: Exactly! There are political bottlenecks but the big money increasingly wants the biggest generating capacity for the buck.
Last I heard there needs to be battery technology that avoids the degradation of lithium ion batteries by dendrites and getting away from the explosive and flammability potential of liquid electrolytes.
There are a couple that look fantastic.
1. Quantumscape’s Solid state batteries. They’ve recently got some big investments and just need to prove they can ramp up cost effectively, rapidly, and efficiently.
2. Ambri’s liquid metal batteries. They love heat so there is no overheating issue. Bill Gates has been a big investor.
3. Flow batteries are big, heavy, and low efficiency but perfect for balancing grids that get intermittent energy from solar and wind. They ramp up nearly instantly and can last 15 to 50 years. They could work in place of Lithium batteries, easing pressure on Lithium supply chains.
And each of these technologies generates far more jobs than oil or gas. (We don’t need to discuss heavily automated, and filthy, coal. RIP is appropriate.)
Eunicecycle
@Dan B: I used to work at a nature education center that installed solar panels that were ground mounted. They were mounted over part of the parking lot so cars can park underneath. We all thought it would be hot under there but it’s not. It was one of the last grants I wrote for them, and I’m pretty proud of it.
gene108
On the renewable front, something that should be done everywhere it’s possible.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2019/11/22/781565978/big-companies-bet-on-cleaner-power-from-pig-poop-ponds
Kirk Spencer
@Leto: So minor digression about the weight a soldier carries. I used to call this the lead law of the infantryman: An infantryman will carry as much weight as he can carry. If you lighten his load, he’ll fill it with ‘just in case’ and ‘little luxuries’. If you increase his load, he will ‘lose’ little things till he is carrying as much weight as he can carry.
Sorry for the digression, but felt I needed to comment on that soldier weight thing.
CaseyL
I love hearing how much R&D, and actual roll-outs, is going on! I’m feeling cautiously optimistic real progress will happen, despite the dinosaurs of fossil fuel industries throwing all their money and political influence at policies to sabotage it.
PS: I am on Firefox, using a MacBook Pro, and at intermittent intervals, the only way I can comment is by writing under the Text tab.
Pete Downunder
There is no noise maker required for EVs Downunder, and they are very very quiet at low speeds. That said the combination of inherent tire noise and our crap roads means that ambient noise at highway speed is no better than internal combustion engine vehicles. I do love my Model 3 Tesla but Australia is not yet really equipped for long EV road trips. Fortunately I hate road trips but for local travel it’s great.
Pete Downunder
There is no noise maker required for EVs Downunder, and they are very very quiet at low speeds. That said the combination of inherent tire noise and our crap roads means that ambient noise at highway speed is no better than internal combustion engine vehicles. I do love my Model 3 Tesla but Australia is not yet really equipped for long EV road trips. Fortunately I hate road trips but for local travel it’s great.
Dan B
@Ruckus: Hydro works like Flow batteries. Hydro is lower efficiency than Flow batteries but both are low efficiency. Flow is 1/10 the energy density of Lithium ion. But they both ramp up quickly, almost as fast as gas turbines as I recall. (not to quote please!) Since we’re running out of good Hydro sites that don’t destroy rivers or are close enough to demand we could utilize Flow batteries as an alternative.
Ruckus
@Mary G:
Two of the VA locations that I use have massive solar fields. The VA hospital in WLA has them over most of the parking areas. The clinic in the SF Valley has a huge solar farm and some of the parking. Looks like enough to power most of the facilities, except for some of the real power draw things, like MRI machines.
Here’s Google Maps satellite pics, zooming in will show how much solar. The SF clinic pic the main solar is the grid in the lower right corner.
WLA Hospital
SF Valley Clinic
Dan B
@Eunicecycle: Congratulations! There are even “transparent” solar PV panels that generate electricity with the infrared wavelength so they would help as window coverings in skyscrapers that are typically too hot. In parking lots they wouldn’t provide any shade – maybe okay in Scotland.
Leto
@Kirk Spencer: as someone who’s humped 120lbs of shit over more miles/terrain than I care to remember, I’m more than qualified to talk about this. As someone who spent half my career directly supporting those infantryman as my primary job, I’m more than qualified about this subject. The majority of the “just in case” items comes in the form of more ammo/grenades because we were always looking to carry more of that because you never had enough. The reason they’re carrying more weight is mission requirements. Even though our technology has increased since just 1970, our on the ground mission requirements have grown exponentially.
The DoD is an oxymoron in this front: we’re constantly looking at ways of reducing weight, but then we continue to add shit to the load out. It’s why we developed a frigging robot dog mule… to lighten the load of what soldiers carry. But we know that won’t happen. Back to renewables.
Dan B
@gene108: You would notice a gas leak from this “clean” gas, ha! Of course the mercaptan, or whatever odor goes in our natural gas is probably even more potent.
How did the hogs git in the kitchen, dear? Uh, oh, check the stove quick like.
Ruckus
@Dan B:
I was suggesting small water driven turbines. Sure the generation wouldn’t be massive but the cost could be small and the generation rather regular. And useful as a grid fill in for solar or wind. Now the losses may make it not worth the time but it might be doable. We did used to use water movement to generate useful energy in many ways in much smaller parcels than a Hoover Dam.
Wind is useable as well and lots of areas of this country could support wind power generation, if so many of our citizens didn’t live in the 1800s.
Leto
@CaseyL: I’m optimistic about this too. Anytime someone poo-poo’s on renewables, I usually ask them how their whale oil consultancy business is going.
cain
My friend is doing a fundraiser for black women in Portland – if anyone wants to help black women owned businesses – she would be most appreciative. Her goal was to raise $20k, maybe wishful thinking but she’s got $800 thus far – so in the next two hours – if you could buy a ticket ($60) that would be awesome.
https://t.co/TBEYjmR2CP?amp=1
Kirk Spencer
@Leto: I was also speaking from experience – just fyi.
re renewables, @gene108: how much did the energy to clean the methane cost? I mean, that’s a great idea but there’s advertising and there’s actual profit. (I love the image, though.)
Ruckus
@Leto:
One thing to remember is that much of the renewable energy field is now able to generate useful power because of the ability to better manufacture the products. Solar cells are more efficient, wind turbines are much more powerful and cost effective. Batteries are becoming far cheaper and have greater capacity as well, allowing us to make excess electricity at off peak times and use that as necessary. And that we are learning how to use fairly young technologies in better ways and the break throughs are allowing new ideas of use. IOW it isn’t going to get worse in this field, even if things only improve another 10-20% over the next decade.
Kent
The main obstacle to more water driven turbines is elevation. You need a lot of vertical feet from the top of the dam to the bottom to turn meaningfully large turbines. Which is why hydropower is a thing in the Pacific Northwest but not Texas. The water pressure generated by gravity goes up mathematically with elevation. It’s the same thing you can demonstrate by taking a can and drilling holes up the side and filling it with water and seeing which whole squirts the furthest. http://www.icoachmath.com/physics/definition-of-pressure-in-liquid.htm
You can’t get something like a 300′ high dam face in Texas because the terrain is so flat and the size of the lake you would create as a result would flood half the state.
Yutsano
@Leto:
Oh I am SO keeping an eye on you now!
– Volkswagen owner
–
Leto
@Ruckus: I’m thinking about how back in 2007 I was speaking with some Civil Engineering people about the use of solar as a means of powering some of our bases in Iraq, and they basically laughed it off. I’m like… why the hell would you laugh that off? It makes sense in the fact that you’re not having to transport as much fuel to run generators, as well as we’re in the middle of the worlds largest solar area so might as well take advantage of it. Fast forward to just a few years ago and where we were designing our new comm building with included renewable energy sources, as well as a plant roof to help reduce heating/cooling needs (as well as more adaptive camo for our area).
Leto
@Ruckus: I’m thinking about how back in 2007 I was speaking with some Civil Engineering people about the use of solar as a means of powering some of our bases in Iraq, and they basically laughed it off. I’m like… why the hell would you laugh that off? It makes sense in the fact that you’re not having to transport as much fuel to run generators, as well as we’re in the middle of the worlds largest solar area so might as well take advantage of it. Fast forward to just a few years ago and where we were designing our new comm building with included renewable energy sources, as well as a plant roof to help reduce heating/cooling needs (as well as more adaptive camo for our area).
@Yutsano: I’m sure I’ll see you on the side of the road soon enough.
– reliable electrical system owne
Edit: no idea why two comments but ok! I can’t edit/delete the first one, so…
Dan B
@Ruckus: This is what policy tweaks can accomplish. People don’t get crazed about minor tweaks which lessens the influence of the fossil corporations. But they add up.
My concern is with rooftop solar that benefits people who are well off. We installed solar PV on our house when we moved 11+ years ago, because I got a big payout on the former house. It was luck buying low, Boeing Bust, sell high, tech boom, downsize to minority majority neighborhood ( ten or twenty years to gentrification, if ever) The system is paid off and I get a check for more than two thousand annually. The minority led environmental org I’ve volunteered for cannot access financing and this liberal city doesn’t have a financing plan. This creates friction that fossil corps have exploited in other states.
We need awareness raising in many governments and philanthropies. There’s great technology coming. Will it leave low income and minority people behind?
Dan B
@Ruckus: I understand you were focusing on small hydro and unusual hydro generation. There’s much room for creative applications. As in most renewables the issue is deploy, deploy, research, deploy, deploy, evaluate, innovate, deploy, etc. Mostly DEPLOY!
Renewables are good enough and vastly improved renewables will be great in the future. Now is time to get out and ‘Dance with the Ones Who Brought Us!’
There are small scale wave generation devices, tidal turbines, spiral wind turbines that can work on rooftops. And smart grids to be installed.
Infrastructure (and jobs) quadrennial, here we come!
Dan B
@Ruckus: Preach!
I love how Sandy Munro (car guru to car nuts) has revised his talk to CEO’s. He said a year ago that EV’s would dominate auto sales in 2030. Now he tells them 2025, and maybe 2023! In Seattle, and probably other cities Tesla us the number 1 luxury vehicle, selling more than all other luxury brands combined. And I believe that since the Model 3 they may sell more tan all other makes and models except the dreaded SUV.
Ruckus
Here is the latest FullyCharged Y Tube, released today.
This is about cities and taxies and buses and renewable energy.
Very interesting, at the RL talks about some other cities in several countries and what they are doing.
citizen dave
@Dan B: :My concern is with rooftop solar that benefits people who are well off.” This is an often overlooked nuance to net metering in general–I agree.
The grid is my job, but tonight I was watching the special features on my Bookseller doc dvd film, then episode 6 of the Vietnam was doc. Good thread! I will read it in detail, looks like lots of good stuff. I thought of floating solar one day for the ocean–inland didn’t occur to me.
I was lucky enough to visit NREL in Colorado a couple years ago, and we talked with a scientist who was very bullish on perovskites–we’ll see. Speaking of military applications, he showed us a flexible panel they were working on that soldiers could easily carry around and lay out for power gen.
In general I think utility-scale solar and wind farms and storage will always be cheaper than home systems for generation. But once you add in transmission, distribution, overhead, etc., it could be that someday the well-to-do start leaving the grid. We call it the utility death spiral. It got a bit of talk 3-4 years ago, not very hot at the moment.
There is a new push by some to build a shitload of transmission all over the country. I think that’s the wrong answer. I think it will be renewables close to load, replacing and using the transmission capacity that the old fossil plants used.
Bill Arnold
Does anyone know of a good analysis of Biden Adminstration intentions re tariffs on imported solar panels?
There are some complexities, e.g. arguably forced labor in China:
How a forced-labor prevention act may affect U.S. solar panel imports (February 1, 2021, Paul Wormser)
but anything slowing the increases in solar capacity (and other non-fossil-carbon power) will, in the fullness of time, kill many millions of humans.
TaMara (HFG)
@Kirk Spencer: Completely off-topic (well, kinda, because it was painful even writing this post). I have the worst writer’s block! If you have any special, magical advice to email me…it would be welcome.
TaMara (HFG)
@Ruckus: Thanks for that. I’ve now subscribed to that channel, too.
Dan B
@cain: The amazing changes Biden administration is encouraging and you’re right in the rush of it with great competency and a track record. Go tiger!
Bill Arnold
@citizen dave:
?? renewable supply is highly variable (clouds/night, wind speed variations), and the (continental) country is 4 time zones across/daylight moves across the US for 4 hours. So I do not understand your point.
Ruckus
@Kent:
OK I see I’m not being clear. Not hydro power as we see it now, with big dams, lots of hight for fall as you state.
I’m talking much, much, dramatically smaller generators. For use where we pump water to our homes and factories. The movement of that water would drive very small generators to add to the grid, not to be a massive generating station. Think about excess solar cell power generation on your house. That can be fed to the grid, or stored in batteries at your home. A water main might be able to support a number of small turbines that would fill in the valleys of solar, wind production. to smooth out the power supply, which is extremely necessary for the grid to work. With solar and wind there are going to be peaks and valleys because those are less stable supplies than non renewable sources of production. Batteries help but that’s a lot of batteries.
I’m suggesting, not saying it will work, but everything needs to be on the table. This is possibly one small thing. One other possible thing is I might be full of shit here. But we have in the past only looked at bigger is better and it isn’t always. I’ve lived on a ship that provided a lot of electricity for use of armament, light, radar, sonar, radio, navigation and that was a lot of power necessary in a small space. We would burn 10,000 to 20,000 gallons of oil a day to drive the ship and create that electricity. A city is just like that, we use a lot of energy to power our cities, maybe we need to not think of only one way to do that, but many ways that often power used can be used in more than one way.
Dan B
@citizen dave: Excellent observations! Renewables close to source that are rewarded for being regional and site specific. Who would ever imagine that? But it is absolutely sensible. Imagine if Seattle ruled the US and told every state that they had to do hydro, or else. Indiana and Illinois would have to build some huge open top water towers and pray for rain (and no dam failure).
Kent
@Ruckus: So maybe something like an existing Midwestern water tower with a lagoon below. When there is surplus solar at the peak of the day use the excess solar to pump the water up into the tower. then during the night when the power is needed, let it back down through turbines.
Essentially using the water tower as a big battery.
I don’t know if that would be more efficient, environmentally sound, and cost productive than a large bank of chemical batteries. But it would theoretically work.
Dan B
@citizen dave: The rich will always be insensitive about the “lesser folk”. We were talking about a friend of ours whose husband was a Microsoft VP. She casually remarked that thankfully Bill listened to the right people and moved away from being a selfish oligarch. It helps that Bill Gates Sr. and Bill Jr.’s mother were compassionate people. I did an event with Sr. and pinched myself that Lil me could work with him on my little project to organize progressive faith leaders. (Atheist here but those people know how to reach people! Katherine Hayhoe being a prime example.)
Kent
Doesn’t have to be that way. Rooftop solar is growing in popularity in high-poverty parts of Latin America and Africa. These are not well-off people.
Ruckus
@Dan B:
I like Fully Charged over Sandy, just personal perceptions. But I also feel that FC does a much wider focus than Sandy does. The link I just posted at #69 is one of the reasons.
Tesla, in business 10 yrs has sold over the last year 1/2 a million cars. That ain’t nothing. But for me Elon just rubs me the wrong way. The cars, like all cars, have faults and they have fixed a number of them but selling a car that goes 0-60 in 2 seconds, just because he can get idiots to spend the money doesn’t go over well for me because the idiots will do it just because and we all have to live in this world. I predict that people will die because of 2 sec 0-60 and 1000 hp. It isn’t at all necessary, like a loud pipe on your Honda civic. I wish he’d sell a more effective car for more people. But he’s a big money guy, he thinks only like a big money guy and there are far more of us not big money folks than them.
Dan B
@Kent: I believe these sorts of water tower projects have been analyzed and found to be low efficiency, high initial investment, and maintenance headaches. But funding for small research projects should be supported anyway. Funding for supervised student research projects?
Ken
@Ruckus: I think you’re fighting thermodynamics there, and as always it’s going to win. If you extract energy from the water flow, that energy had to be put into the water somehow.
In much of the country, the pressure is achieved by pumping the water up into an elevated tank. To maintain the same flow and pressure at the outputs while extracting power along the pipes would require pumping the water to higher elevations, which will require more power than can be extracted from the water flow – otherwise we’d have a perpetual motion system.
Dan B
@Kent: Is the issue in Latin America that building departments are less strict? I believe that permits and inspections add up and contractors are under the microscope. At the same time we don’t need accidents with electricity. That could be a Dymaxion car level problem.
Dan B
@Ruckus: I watch Fully Charged as well but my partner is a gear head and worships Elon. Sigh.
I believe the Chinese may dominate EV’s for the mass market if Elon’s $25,000 sedan is a bust. I’m also waiting to see if Sandy Munro’s prediction that only Tesla, VW, and a couple Chinese companies will be making autos in ten years. I guess Rivian and some three wheelers are favored as well.
So much prediction, so few true crystal balls.
Kent
Building departments? Building permits? Surely you jest.
People just buy some Chinese solar panels at the market, wire them up themselves, and then scrounge up some car batteries for backup. I expect everything is off-the-grid 12 volt stuff. Even in towns that, on paper have electrical power, not everyone has the bribe $$ or even the property title that will allow them to get a regular 120 volt metered hookup to the power company. One of the biggest problems in slums is lack of property titles
Of course in upscale neighborhoods in middle income countries like Chile things are much as they are in the US with legit contractors and building standards and such.
JaneE
The new tract of homes that went up near me a few years ago offered solar as an option. At least half of the homes have panels. The most recent part of the development has the highest percentage of panels, and more and more are appearing on the existing homes in my neighborhood. I am also seeing a large number of parking lots – generally government or schools – that have put in solar panels, effectively creating a covered parking area instead of just an expanse of asphalt. I know a teacher whose school did that, and the teaching staff loved having shade for their cars. A couple of motels I pass have also put in solar panels on all their roofs. Small steps.
Ruckus
@Dan B:
I think that in many areas of the world there just isn’t the background that we have over the last 100 yrs. There are lots of places that building out most any kind of medium to large scale power projects just are not practical in the least. But putting in solar and batteries with maybe gas/diesel generation as a back up may be far cheaper and in the long run actually uses far less oil.
With that in mind there is a show on Apple TV called Long Way Up, staring Ewan McGregor and Charley Boorman. This is the third show they’ve done, riding motorcycles long distances in areas that are not, shall we say, motorcycle paradises. They rode from the southern tip of South America to Los Angeles. On Harley Davidson ELECTRIC motorcycles, accompanied by 2 Rivian electric pickups. All 4 of those vehicles were pre-production vehicles and all of them made it, abet 1 each of them had issues. They started in the dead of winter. The southern tip of SA is the closest point to Antartica. It was damn cold.
It is a great show to see how well electric vehicles work. Remember that over 100 yrs ago electric vehicles were being much considered for transport. It’s taken a long time for electricity to become suitable but that time is now.
Brachiator
Dipping in during a late evening break. I have not had time to read all the comments here.
A few questions. And if they have been answered already in the thread, cool. I will try to read more later (more likely in a few days).
I hear that solar is “green” and renewable. But,
How long do solar panels last? How destructive are the processes that give us materials for solar panels?
How rare are the materials used for solar panels? How much exists to be exploited?
Don’t solar panels need batteries for down time? How efficient are these? How clean? How safe?
I vaguely recall, maybe incorrectly, Elon Musk being sued over defective roof solar panels, or panels which became unsafe or failed to perform?
What are the by-products, if any, of the processes by which solar panels do their thing and create electricity?
Just some off the top of my head questions. Probably been asked and answered somewhere.
dmsilev
@Brachiator: I’ll take a couple of these:
If your power supply is purely solar, then yes you need batteries. One way to minimize this is to not use only solar; wind and hydro are both renewable and not daytime-only. Also, demand tends to be higher during the day when solar is producing. Still, it is an issue.
Lithium ion batteries, of the sort in your phone or (at a larger scale) in an electric car, are the most common solution. Requires lithium, plus a smattering of other things. Safe to run and very efficient, has somewhat dirty mining operations as part of the manufacturing. Other storage technologies like flow-cell batteries use different chemistries but will will have more or less the same bottom line.
Once the panels are made and installed, that’s it. No byproducts result from the power production, unless you count waste heat from the conversion inefficiency.
mrmoshpotato
I read that as Harassing The Sun.
Yutsano
@dmsilev:
I think he means waste products from the production of solar panels. I haven’t heard anything major but I’m way far away from being any sort of expert here.
Anotherlurker
@CaseyL: How about floatovoltaics arrays on the water supply aqueducts of California ? Those canals look like they supply some surface areas that could be used for this.
Dan B
@Kent: Glad you noticed the softball and hit it out of the park with waves of laughter.
It reminds me of electrical wiring in Delhi. And sitting on the terrace of the Majaraha of Jodhpur’s hunting lodge, we were the only guests with a staff of 8 at the most beautiful all stone Art Deco building I’ve ever seen (ask Ohio Mom how to top Cincinnati’s train station) watching flashes of transformers exploding in the far distance. Lovely evening entertainment.
counterfactual
@Brachiator: I’ll do some from memory, which is not completely trustworthy…
Most solar panels are guaranteed for 20 years. They’ll still work after 20 years but progressively generate less power.
“Mining for solar panels is dirty, dirty, dirty!!!” is a favorite right-wing talking point, but it’s no worse than coal mining life cycle and probably a lot better.
The material needed aren’t all that rare, though some are messy to mine.
Walmart sued one of Musk’s companies over the panels they’d installed at some Walmarts. Suits were filed, accusations were flung on social media, it was all quietly settled. Walmart claimed their installations caught fire because of faulty installation, Musk claimed it was faulty maintenance by Walmart.
Dan B
@Brachiator: I echo dmsilev.
Solar PV uses silicon of high purity, at this point. There are other PV technologies that are imprinted on polymer films and these things called perovskites that need a substrate and are lead based, which no one wants. Each approach has issues. Most of them seem solvable.
High purity silica sand is in somewhat limited supply but it’s sand for Dog’s sake. It’s one of the most abundant minerals on the earth’s crust. Impurities are a nuisance not an imposdible impediment. And, as I said, there are other approaches.
Lithium is another abundant mineral. It’s been said that there is enough on or near the surface in Nevada to provide batteries to provide power for everything in the world. At present the cheapest source is in the salt pans in the high desert in Peru (as I recall – please research) There are ecogical issues which I recall without clarity. The issue may be multinational / post colonial exploitation to save a few bucks and avoid regulation I first world nations. Lithium may get a few dollars more expensive but it’s a small part of the expense of a battery.
There are many issues but all of them seem to be small or people are actively working to resolve them. My partner and I have been following these for more than a decade so we could write a book.
There are broader issues. Is there an audit process that delineates how to best minimize the use of fossil fuels in the transition? What are the ecological issues and who is affected? And there are more.
Many of these issues may be moot. The transition to renewables seems to be accelerating at an unstoppable pace. The biggest money seems to be racing, beyond the spotlight, to reap the wealth of an emerging economy. Solar PV abd onshore wind are cheaper than all fossil fuels. Batteries are getting cheaper and new technologies that eliminate toxic compounds like cobalt seem to be in process.
The current issue is how the innovation explosion that Biden has approved will be managed.
We can start taking notes for the books that will be written.
cain
@Ruckus:
I must have bought one of the initial 500 cars for Portland. I got myself a Tesla and I have to say it was such a game changer. Yes, sure, 0-60 in 5 seconds – but more than that – he built a system where I can charge my car on a long trip – gave me a range of over 200 miles when other electric cars were barely adequate for in-city driving.
Elon Musk and Tesla changed the game and ushered the era of viable electric cars. Even if he is a douchebag, I will respect him showing the world that you can have an electric car.
I loved my Tesla, it was like owning an Apple computer. Back then it was all enthusiastic – a very pure set of followers. Today, it is more of a status symbol and you get assholes now too. I don’t have a Tesla anymore but one day I would like to get one of the older Tesla.. it’s a wonderful thing.
Freemark
@Ken: In many areas the tower is at the max height needed for its location. In areas of high variability in living elevation, hilly areas, the lower flat areas need pressure regulators to limit water pressure. Those areas could use turbines effectively. Basically recovering wasted energy. Cost/benefit would be the issue not physics.
Brachiator
Thanks very much to everyone who responded!
Great information.
This has happened before in human history. It might be an interesting time to live in if it really does happen again.
Dan B
@Anotherlurker: My honey / partner claims that aqueducts are already being used for ground mounted “Floatovoltaics”.
They’re great because they’re linear, there are roadways for maintenance, and for installation. They often head to towns, cities, and industries that will utilize the power.
Dan B
@Brachiator: You are welcome.
I wish I’d kept notes on all the flaws, potential pitfalls, and potential progress are evolving over the last few years. It is moving with such speed, here, and maybe with greater speed in China, that it will likely be a very different discussion in one year.
There are potential pitfalls. Will some big money powers with oligarchic tendencies lasso the brightest lights?
Chris T.
Not just a British actor, he’s the one who played Kryten in Red Dwarf!
Ruckus
@cain:
Elon really has made the electric car market in the world. And while I’m not sold on his products they have improved from a pretty high starting point. He’s the leader because he showed that it could be done and he did a complete job by installing the Supercharging network. He supplied a complete package. His vision has made it OK to have an electric car. He made it mainstream, he made it work, he focused the issue and started the countdown clock. It will not be that many years until the electric car is the only thing sold. Countries have passed laws that no new gas or diesel engined cars can be sold after 2030, ten yrs down the road. I doubt this country will do that in 20.
I can easily accept and admire what he’s done, doesn’t mean I like the man’s style and there are concepts in his cars that I don’t think we are even close to being able to trust. Autonomous driving? Likely better than a drunk, but that’s a rather untrustworthy bar.
Low Key Swagger
There was a documentary I saw about GM’s foray into electric cars. Apparently, they were loved by those who leased them but then GM took them all back, and destroyed them. The battery technology was purchased and essentially buried. Anyone else remember that? I assume battery technology has likely rendered that (now) twenty yr old tech meaningless? Am I wrong?
Chris T.
That was the EV-1. The cars were essentially station wagons full of lead-acid (standard old style car) batteries. A friend of mine in Berkeley actually had one. It worked fine on flat roads and even up some hills, but couldn’t go up Marin Ave above the fountain (then again some gasoline powered cars can’t either). And yes, these were all leased. If I remember right they had no garage, just that weird two-strips-of-concrete that old (early 1900s era) Berkeley houses often have. The charging cable might have plugged into any 120V outdoor plug, or maybe they had a special one installed; I never looked closely.
Li-ion (cell phone etc) batteries beat the old lead-acid batteries all hollow in pretty much every way, so there’s no reason to resurrect these except for historical interest.
Low Key Swagger
@Chris T.: Thanks for that. I remember a handful of celebrities had them in the Los Angeles area.
Chris T.
@Low Key Swagger: I should probably also mention that they have a Chevy Bolt now. They like it a lot, apparently. (I bought a different EV – I sat in a Bolt and the narrow driver’s seat doesn’t fit my rather wide butt…)
Geminid
Renewable Energy Magazine published a very interesting article January 28, 2021 about a renewable energy project proposed by a Valentia, Ireland based energy co-op. Ireland has abundant offshore wind energy, and projects are underway on the East coast to generate electricity with wind farms connected to the electrical grid. The West coast is relatively isolated though, so the citizen owned Co-op intends to twin offshore wind turbines with electrolytic hydrogen production. The belief is that the green hydrogen economy will grow exponentially by 2050. The article noted that an Irish based company, CP Hydrogen Group, plans facilities in Ireland and Northern Ireland to produce “Membrane Free Electrolysers” with projected direct employment of 1500-2000 people, and 2000-3000 with sub-contractors.
Geminid
@Geminid: While the Renewable Energy Magazine article I cite above does not say how the hydrogen generated offshore would be delivered, I assume it would be by pipeline. But could a massive array of wind turbines and electrolysers floating in the open ocean fill tankers similar to the Liquified Natural Gas tankers now transferring fossil fuels? Winds in the open ocean can support a denser array of turbines than onshore winds. Hydrogen may be a keystone of the future economy. Airbus is in the first stage of devoloping large hydrogen powered airplanes.
notGoodenough
@Brachiator:
So, off-and-on lurker, first time commenter – I come in peace ? I don’t know if this will be of any interest, but for what it is worth here are some thoughts.
Since my focus is on storage, I’ll hit that quickly from two perspectives – variable renewable energy (VRE) and electric vehicles (EVs). This is a bit of an oversimplification, but going too deep into the weeds would probably result in my ramblings being even more tediously verbose than usual.
1) VRE intermittency may be considered somewhat simplistically from short term (e.g. minute to daily variations in wind and solar) and longer term (e.g. weekly to seasonal) perspectives. There are a wide range of mitigation solutions potentially available (everything from non-variable sources, such as hydro or nuclear) to energy storage solutions (such as batteries, hydrogen electrolysis, etc.).
From my perspective, VRE intermittency must be considered from a case-by-case perspective, looking to exploit what is easy to hand. For example, regional variations in statistical distributions may well lower the storage requirements (e.g. in some areas wind increases at night, which would help off-set solar to some extent). Nevertheless, short-term storage, such as batteries, looks to be a reasonably well-established approach (depending on how your introduction of VREs are likely to affect overall grid stability).
To give a slightly more detailed look at battery technology in short term storage:
Lead acid offers moderate specific energy, high reliability, is a mature technology, less costly, and is regularly employed in substations the world over (the main determining factor for life-time is the tendency towards electrolysis and thus water loss over time – which concentrates the acid, leading to corrosion and degradation);
Li-ion offers higher energy density and energy conversion, but is costly (and relies on Li, which is identified by the EU as an “at risk” resource). However, examples do exist (cf. Hornsdale, a 150MW/194MWh grid-connected energy storage system co-located with the Hornsdale Wind Farm used for energy arbitrage and as a continuous spinning reserve; the Vermont GMP 4MW facility used to backup power, for microgrid capabilities, and demand charge reductions);
Vanadium redox flow offers a high response time, good cyclability, and can flexibly alter the depth of discharge on the fly (cf. the Hokkaido 6-MV vanadium redox flow battery configured to the 30-MW wind farm for peak frequency regulation);
Sodium sulfur is a relatively mature technology, and offers a long, continuous discharge and high cycle time which helps shift energy in time and traces wind power schedule output (cf. Japan´s 34-MW sodium-sulphur battery coupled with a 51 MW wind farm, which has a 42 MW stabilisation operational voltage).
While redox flow batteries are less common, I believe the advances being made will prove very interesting – particularly in comparison to the longer-term storage systems (like pumped hydro). This is, however, speculative on my part, so feel free to treat this as a very tentative assertion.
In my opinion, one critical advance which needs to be made is moving stationary storage towards alternatives to Li – something which will prove difficult, since battery development has generally focussed on Li (often to the exclusion of other potential systems). The reason I believe this is because Li batteries are exceptionally well suited to mobile devices (such as EVs), which is something other battery technologies struggle with, and so in an ideal world would typically be targeted for those applications (more on that later). There are also considerable resource concerns even from the non-Li components (particularly if one wishes to consider the implications on the societies and environments most affected).
Longer term storage is currently more of an issue, though solutions have been proposed here. Batteries are currently far less suitable for addressing this, so I will step outside my comfort zone and briefly mention pumped-storage hydroelectricity (PSH), thermal storage (which comprises of a range of technologies, though I believe molten salt storage is currently the most widely adopted), and electromechanical (e.g. compressed air, flywheels, etc.). Pumped hydro storage is currently the leader here, and as of 2017 comprised something like 169 GW out of 176 GW total (based on figures from the International Renewable Energy Agency). Nevertheless, this still seems to represent something of a technology gap which urgently needs addressing. My personal speculation is that we may well see green hydrogen electrolysis play a role here, but again that is tentative.
2) EVs are, of course, a critical area as we must address, given that transportation represents a major source of GHG emissions.
The application of Li batteries within EVs looks exceptionally promising. Whatever criticisms may be levelled at Tesla (and believe me, I could spend a lot of time on that) they have helped provoke considerable advances in the application-led side of battery research.
From the perspective of rapid rollout of EVs, the work from Jeff Dahn looks rather significant (DOI 10.1149/2.0981913jes), and he has a youtube video which gives a rough outline of his more recent developments (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOQQTwYkg08&t=1348s) which is based on pretty conventional systems (the biggest advance being in oft-neglected area of electrolytes). Based on a 1C charging rate (1 hr charge) the cyclability is about 4000 cycles – or, to put it another way, assuming you charge once per day, over 10 years of usage.
3) TL;DR
Storage for VRE and EVs is currently undergoing some rapid advances and developments, but major challenges remain.
Uncle Cosmo
@Kent: One of the most achievable uses for small-scale solar is heating water. All the way back in 1996, in Seljuk, Turkey, I stayed in a pansiyon with a solar water heater on its roof. Made eminent sense in a country with lots of sun and damn few other indigenous energy sources. (Also made for a necessary adjustment in personal hygiene – water for showering wouldn’t get warm enough til midafternoon.)
Mart
@counterfactual: solar panel roof fires are a fairly big problem. They can also act like wings and tear the roof up in high winds.
Kirk Spencer
@notGoodenough: Thank you. I’m tucking that info away for reference.
SW
Retired now. Was always an efficiency nut. Spent my whole career chasing performance. Worked in the high performance group at SERI and then NREL. Was always pushing the limits of what the technology can do. Multi-junction III-V’s. Concentrators. Whatever will wring the most power out of the incident sunlight. Someday we will figure out that plastic is cheaper than high quality semiconductors and that PV prefers to operate at flux levels higher than 1000 watts/m2. Lots of good interesting ideas out there. We just never had anything like adequate funding to really explore them. Most groups composed of six or eight people working four or five projects. Really no way to make significant progress. Just looks good in a spread sheet back at DOE. Maybe someday we’ll get serious about this stuff.
Another Scott
@Brachiator: In addition to things other have mentioned, producing solar cells involves lots of chemistry that can be dangerous and can lead to nasty industrial accidents and so forth. E.g. the “n-type” and “p-type” region in silicon solar cells typically need phosphorus (P) and boron (B) elements added, respectively, and the equipment to do that typically uses gases like PH3 and B2H6. Which are naturally very dangerous. So there are lots of requirements for the equipment to be of high-quality and have safety systems and monitors and rules for operation so forth. Similarly, solar cells have to be manufactured in extremely clean environments and many processing steps involve cleaning. Using nasty acids and bases and solvents. All of which can be extremely dangerous and toxic and so forth.
The same kinds of processes are used to make the electronic chips in computers and phones, so all of this is well known and understood in industry.
But in places where the most important thing is to shave every possible $0.01 from every step and every part, the pressure is to cut corners on safety and regulations. (Why pay to have the waste solvents carted away and recycled when we can just, e.g., dump them in a pit??) Customers and locals have to demand that these things be made safely or very, very bad things can and will happen while chasing the almighty dollar.
Cheers,
Scott.
Another Scott
Very interesting thread. Thanks.
Yet another renewable technology for electric power generation that I recall seeing proposed years ago is: ocean thermoelectrics. People are familiar with thermocouples – two “dissimilar” metals that are welded together at a tip – when the tip is above the temperature of the ends of the wires, a “thermal EMF” (voltage) is generated that can be read and (with a calibration table) used to measure the temperature of the tip.
One can, in principle, take advantage of the physics behind that to generate voltage if one has an appropriate connection between two regions of different temperature. Ideally, one would want those two regions to be large and have constant temperatures (so sucking power out of them doesn’t change the temperatures). Voila – make a gizmo that connects the deep ocean with the surface and one has “free”, “unlimited” electrical power. People have thought about the benefits and issues for years (as usual, one needs better materials). A recent paper is here.
Another process is Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion (OTEC) which uses a water temperature difference and ammonia to drive a turbine and generator. ONR funded a prototype plant in Hawaii. It’s small, (100 kW), but it works.
Cheers,
Scott.
notGoodenough
@Kirk Spencer:
My pleasure – thank you for taking the time to read my rambling!
Kayla Rudbek
Probably a dead thread, but here’s an article about perovskites research: Phys.org link They can get up to 85% efficiency as compared to 60% efficiency from choosing chemical compounds that make up the perovskite structure. And there’s also research into taking the perovskite crystal structure and making analogous lead-free perovskites.
Dan B
@Kayla Rudbek: Thanks. I’m feeling obsessed with all the interesting research on solar PV and LED’s especially now that we’ve got at least a four year window of support for R&D. Another commenter who worked at NREL wringing efficiency out of devices would love to see more and more stable funding. I’m reminded of the long ago time when transistors were developed and the sea change it ushered in.
Kayla Rudbek
@Dan B: yes, in my opinion we are only seeing the beginning of how much solar cell technology can be improved. I follow NREL’s Facebook page as well as phys.org and American Chemical Society as this is really at an interface between physics and chemistry.