This is the only valid TikTok dance. pic.twitter.com/VtZUTHSOqJ
— How to be a Werewolf Kickstarter Vol 1 on now! (@shawnlenore) October 22, 2021
— Dark Priestess Fembot (@__femb0t) October 24, 2021
In a move so unsurprising there is literally an eons-old galactic prophecy about it, powerful, horny men are unable to peacefully share a planet made of cocaine. https://t.co/P4pe9XphF2
— August J. Pollak, But I Dunno, Spooky (@AugustJPollak) October 22, 2021
DUNE$ https://t.co/Cnre3h42R6
— zeddy (@Zeddary) October 26, 2021
debbie
I just wanna know about the sandworms. Believable?
hueyplong
@debbie:
Not so sure when they’re breaking the surface, but the visual effect of their approach was pretty cool.
dmsilev
@debbie: Most realistic portrayal of a 400 meter long worm that I’ve ever seen…
(Saw the film over the weekend, in an actual theater. Visuals are gorgeous; some of the story will be a bit difficult to follow without either having read the book or a guide of some sort, but most of it is pretty clear. Will see Part 2 when it comes out in 2 years)
debbie
@dmsilev:
Thanks. I was so disappointed in Lynch’s film.
Elizabelle
I love the TikTok dance. They are very good. Music is Blinding Lights by The Weeknd.
CaseyL
My question: is the movie worth going to a theater to see? I do want to see it, but am inclined to wait until it’s available for streaming. OTOH, I keep hearing raves about the cinematography.
@debbie: I was in a state of disbelief for days afterward at how awful the Lynch version was. I went to see it with a bunch of friends, and we all wound up sneaking out and down to the hall to see Terminator.
The SciFi mini-series, on the other hand, was quite good.
Chetan Murthy
None of it is believable. A sandworm would need enormous amounts of food to move with such speed and force. No explanation in the books for how that happens. And if the “sand plankton” of the book were the source, then the desert would be covered with them.
Stillsuits *especially* are ridic. If they condense the H2O out of your sweat, they need a power source to move the excess heat. If you had that, you could just aircon the wearer instead. And in any case, such a stillsuit cannot be powered by the wearer. As they say about wet/dry-suits, you can overheat and die, if you’re not in sufficiently cold water.
TheOtherHank
So I hope we’ve all noticed now that Weapon of Choice by Fatboy Slim is about Dune
Benw
@debbie: yea, totally. All the vfx was amazing and the sandworms were some of the best.
Steeplejack
@CaseyL:
It’s on HBO Max now, if that’s an option for you.
Chetan Murthy
@Benw: I quite liked the FX of the ornithopters. Readily willing to suspend disbelief there.
Omnes Omnibus
@Chetan Murthy: I bet you are fun at parties.
Mike in NC
Got the Moderna booster and a flu shot today at Walgreens. As I left I saw them putting up Christmas displays.
SpaceUnit
How dare they make a sci-fi / fantasy movie with preposterous elements!
debbie
@CaseyL:
I saw it with my three brothers and one of their girlfriends. I and one of my brothers loudly hissed/whispered back and forth through the whole thing. He loved it; I hated it.
Chetan Murthy
@Omnes Omnibus: dude, I didn’t volunteer it. And I read Dune N+1 times. And books 2-6 (except Heretics) too.
They say that the key to believable SF is to break one rule of our reality, but keep the rest the same. The gleeful violation of the laws of thermodynamics (after the introduction of spice and the Spacing Guild) seemed a violation too far. Esp. for a book that pretended it was about ecology and all.
debbie
@Chetan Murthy:
Not one for suspending belief, eh?
burnspbesq
The Texas Book-Banning is getting geared up.
https://www.texastribune.org/2021/10/26/texas-school-books-race-sexuality/
debbie
@Chetan Murthy:
I don’t know. I’ve read very few books that provided as strong a vision for a world as Dune did, at least for me.
Chetan Murthy
@debbie: It’s beautiful stuff, and I’ve read Dune N+1 times. I’ve also read a ton of other Herbert SF: Green Brain, Santaroga Barrier, Whipping Star series, and on and on.
You asked, hey? I mean, no, it’s not believable. But then, neither is lots of SF.
debbie
@burnspbesq:
Does he have the power to actually do this? I’m hearing Joe McCarthy in these words.
Darkrose
If you’d like to hear me give media recommendations for LGBTQ+ History month, check this out: https://youtu.be/uidTwf_3W-M
mrmoshpotato
Great dancing!
Alison Rose
Had a work call a bit ago with the name Stephen Bannon on the caller ID and I was legit scared to answer it.
Jeffro
Pollak tweet = LOL
Simply amazing movie, gorgeous to look at, moves along SO quickly, 98.5% true to the book, awesome!
Two quick notes:
Also, I do have to laugh: what were they going to do, NOT green-light ‘Part 2’? Gimme a break!
Jeffro
@Chetan Murthy: I thought that was just AMAZING and now I want one
mrmoshpotato
@Mike in NC:
Walgreens – Where Halloween and Thanksgiving Can Suck It
Elizabelle
And, on this planet, today is a birthday.
Hillary Clinton is 74 years
oldwiser today.Saw a tweet from Neera Tanden, attached to the Eric Bohlert tweet (about McAuliffe having a 24-point edge among early voters):
Roger Moore
@Chetan Murthy:
Yep. Stillsuits are a clear violation of the laws of thermodynamics. Sweat cools you by evaporating. If you condense the water vapor, it gives back all the heat it took away by evaporating, leaving you just as overheated as you were before.
That said, this is nitpicking. Dune is soft science fiction, not hard. You are supposed to be reading it for what it says about the human condition, not for the technology.
Jeffro
@burnspbesq:
@debbie:
I love how this is the focus of the modern GQP. Do they have anything else to offer? Jobs? Green energy? Avoiding future pandemics? Do they have any thoughts on 1/6? How about taxing the rich to pay for universal pre-K? No? They just get to punt and scream about high school literature?
Matt McIrvin
So what I want to know is, is this movie “good if you already like Dune” good, or is it “good if you like science fiction but always found Dune unreadable” good?
dm
Krugthulu liked it enough to see it twice in the theater:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/26/opinion/dune-movie-foundation-series.html
(bonus: griping about the Foundation TV adaptation.)
Jeffro
Also, the personal shields ROCK ;)
Baud
@Elizabelle:
?
burnspbesq
@debbie:
Probably. The committee probably has subpoena power, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Austin ISD and a handful of other districts politely ignore these requests, and since the Legislature isn’t currently in session that may gum up the works for a while.
Chetan Murthy
@Elizabelle:
I still get teary just thinking of what we lost when we robbed her (and ourselves). Sigh.
tom
I saw Dune Pt I yesterday, and very much liked it as long as I didn’t think too hard about the white savior theme. Timothée Chalamet was a surprisingly convincing Paul, and the rest of the cast was terrific. The visuals are gorgeous. It’s been years since I read the books, but the movie was pretty coherent.
However, I did NOT enjoy the theater experience. There were 25 minutes (!!!) of ads and previews played at ear-splitting volume. Most of previews were of ultra-violent spectacles where tons of shit is blown up for no apparent reason. If theater chains want people to return to the theater, they need to make the experience more pleasant.
ETA: Got my Moderna booster yesterday. I’m feeling pretty run down today, but not completely wiped out like after I got the 2nd shot.
mrmoshpotato
@Jeffro:
No.
No.
No.
No.
They want another insurrection.
No.
No.
Baud
Obligatory
dm
@Jeffro:
Well, we’re not likely to see any more Battle Angel Alita, so….
smith
It’s always worked for them before. You gotta go with the classics.
Chetan Murthy
@Matt McIrvin: And I’ll add a further Q:
“Is the movie good storytelling? If you didn’t already know the story, was it a good story?”
That was my complaint about the first LoTR movie: I had read all the books (Silmarillion too) multiple times, so sure sure sure, I knew the story. But I felt like (watching the movie) most people who hadn’t read the books wouldn’t understand the plot very well: it just moved too fast, skipped too much.
I don’t know if that’s true of the Dune movie. Just to be clear: it was both an improvement on Lynch’s film, and also a lovely film. Really, a lovely film. I had no complaints. But then, I’ve read Dune maybe 10 times.
mrmoshpotato
@Chetan Murthy:
Same here. Pandemic or no pandemic. ?
CaseyL
@Steeplejack: Sure – I can sign up for a month, then cancel. I did it for WW84, I can for Dune. Just wanted to know if the movie was worth watching on a smaller screen (on my laptop, in fact).
Fair Economist
In small world syndrome, I read the webcomic written by the woman that (re?)posted that TikTok dancing vid.
@Roger Moore:
I always assumed stillsuits included a heat pump. Not impossible to power it from the user; depends on the outside temperature; but in any case a sci-fi battery could easily fill in if needed.
debbie
@burnspbesq:
I remember a big brouhaha years ago when whoever headed the Texas School Board tried to do something similar to this current nonsense. That guy was dispatched; this guy will probably be the next governor.
germy
Will I Understand ‘Dune’ If I Don’t Give a Shit?
burnspbesq
If I were an author who had a book on that list, I would immediately update my marketing materials.
Chetan Murthy
@burnspbesq: Anybody remember backward-masking, and Tipper Gore’s LP-burning rallies? [or maybe it was LP-breaking, not like I’m gonna look it up]
Matt McIrvin
@Chetan Murthy: I have some sneaking admiration for Lynch’s movie as one of those bizarre glorious messes where you wonder how it got made. But you sure never quite figure out what the heck is going on, and the super-long edit with all the extraneous narration doesn’t even help.
I was also coming at Jackson’s LOTR movies as a person who had read and enjoyed LOTR, but in my case it was a long time previously and there was a lot I didn’t remember, and the whole thing still worked. I read the books again recently, if anything liked them more than I had originally (even if some of Tolkien’s century-old English cultural baggage made me cringe), and ended up not agreeing with some of Jackson’s choices in hindsight. But they worked as movies, to me.
geg6
@Matt McIrvin:
Come sit by me. Couldn’t get fifty pages in. Found it just awful.
I feel the same way about George RR Martin. Nothing but a sleep aid at best.
debbie
@burnspbesq:
That jackass didn’t even alphabetize the list. That alone should be grounds for ignoring this “order.”
Eyeroller
I’m always surprised at the number of people who don’t get Dune as largely an allegory for Arabian oil.
germy
burnspbesq
@debbie:
He is challenging Paxton in the R primary for state AG. Which will put Paxton in a pickle if subpoenas start flying.
It’s certainly not hard to imagine that that’s what this is really about.
Chetan Murthy
@geg6: My favorite GRRM piece is still Sandkings.
ETA: maybe it says something about me, but I always saw it as a metaphor for toxic parenting.
Baud
@germy:
To be fair, that’s more of an Apple fan base thing.
Chetan Murthy
@Eyeroller: The Orientalism in Dune could power a fleet of starships.
germy
trnc
@debbie:
Love this part:
In other words, according to republicans, these books are not politically correct.
moonbat
@Roger Moore:
What is says about the human condition is that the indigenous peoples need a white savior prophesied of old to manage their valuable natural resource. Just like Avatar and Dances with Wolves for that matter.
I’m sure the visuals are spectacular and I read Herbert’s books back in the day too, but I think this remake came a few decades too late for me, narratively speaking.
burnspbesq
@Baud:
Unlike Tesla, Apple’s market-research fuck-ups only kill careers.
artem1s
saw Dune in a theatre yesterday – birthday present to myself – first time I’ve been in a theatre since the Before Times. I loved the (first 3) books (haven’t read past those) as they were great SF and interesting socio-political commentary too. Hated the Lynch version and assumed that when the CGI was good enough for a believable LOTR that someone eventually take on Dune again. I think the second film will probably be better than the first like a lot of trilogies. So much exposition in the first but necessary when you are creating a complicated backstory. The visuals and performances are pretty awesome although it is a total sausage fest. Lots of beefcake. Wish there was more source material to beef up the female characters but it just doesn’t exist. I’m looking forward to seeing the extended version/director’s cut. And will be there for part II.
the worms are pretty believable but more important the Harkonnen’s are really believable as sociopaths – not just painted up comic book villains like they were in the Lynch version.
germy
@burnspbesq:
Tesla is moving to Texas?
No worker protections there, he’ll love it.
germy
@artem1s:
I remember a weird creature in the Lynch film who enters a room in his own train. Is he in this new version?
Does he look the same, if so?
smith
@trnc: The fun thing is, we’re supposed to pretend the internet hasn’t reached Texas yet. I don’t believe for a minute that any bible-thumping parent no matter how hard-core has ever been able to stop their innocent babes from looking at whatever the hell they really want to look at online. And I don’t believe those innocent babes would be fazed in the least by anything in a high school classroom pertaining to race or sexuality, especially the latter.
CaseyL
@tom:
This may sound strange, but I never got that kind of white-savior vibe from Dune, because the book established early on that the whole Kwisatz Haderach mumbo jumbo was a deliberate invention by the Bene Gesserit,* planted for the purpose of making it easy for a Bene Gesserit seeking help to find it among the Fremen.
The fact that Paul turned out to **be** the Kwisatz Haderach – and that he used the power to upend the Bene Gesserits as well as the Emperor – always struck me as a careful-what-you-wish-for take on manipulated prophecy. I never saw Paul as a captain of his own fate, but as an instrument of truly mysterious forces, which could just as well have been Fremen in origin.
*Sorry, got my prophecies mixed up. Kwisatz Haderach was the terminology for the “male” Reverend Mother the BG were breeding towards, and that was an actual outcome they wanted. The Fremen savior, which was the prophecy planted among Fremen by the Missionaria Protectiva, I don’t remember if that person was also referred to as the Kwisatz Haderach or as something else.
Brachiator
@Chetan Murthy:
Who is “they?” When did “they” say this?
I kinda see where you are coming from, but I am in the camp that SF, like any other fiction, is all about being fun and exciting, not about being “believable.”
What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us
@geg6: I read Dune when I was in middle school round about 1983 and liked it pretty well but couldn’t get through any of the sequels. The sequels seemed so boring at that age.
Elizabelle
@artem1s: Happy birthday!
SpaceUnit
@moonbat:
I didn’t get that impression from Dances With Wolves. Yes, John Dunbar saves the tribe at one point, but in a larger sense it is they who save him.
burnspbesq
@germy:
Elon already loves Texas; it’s the only place SpaceX could operate the way it does without environmental regulators coming down on it like a stray meteorite.
What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us
@Eyeroller: That was my interp back when I read it. And I was in middle school but the oil embargo was very fresh in everyone’s minds.
Anotherlurker
@artem1s: With the state of CGI, I’m still expecting someone to give “Ringworld” a shot at production
https://collider.com/ringworld-series-alan-taylor-amazon/
I spoke too soon!
trnc
@smith: True dat. I’m sure the knuckleheads know this and that it’s all performance art for the rubes.
Starfish
@CaseyL: Someone I know pointed me at this because I was so excited by the Muslimness of The Master of Jinn.
I did not know what made Dune more Shi’i than other forms of Islam, but I think it may have to do with the fact that Paul was the Mahdi.
Benw
@Chetan Murthy: the thopers were fun.
Fun fact: the next large scale neutrino experiment in US particle physics is the Deep Underground Neutrino Experiment, or DUNE. When the collaboration picked the name, there was some concern about the politics of the source material, but if the movie’s a hit maybe we get some free publicity!
gwangung
@CaseyL: Yeah, this. Particularly with the ascension of his son, I thought the series was meant to to critique empire and chosen one tropes.
Though being a man of his time, the story does draw upon some misogynistic and white savioristic impulses.
eclare
@germy: That essay was awesome!
Dorothy A. Winsor
No way I’m seeing a movie that long in the theater.
Went to the Chicago Botanic Gardens for a few hours this afternoon, on what is probably the last nice day for a while. Beautiful place
Roger Moore
@Jeffro:
If part 1 lost a bunch of money, they wouldn’t have made part 2. People don’t talk about it much, but there have been plenty of movies that were made in anticipation of sequels that never happened because the first episode just wasn’t profitable (or not profitable enough). There have also been plenty of series that petered out after a couple of episodes when they were always intended to go on longer. This is most obvious with books, where you can see the books that didn’t make it. Series like James Bond, where they ran out of source material and kept going with new stories, are the rare exception.
artem1s
@germy:
Jeebus, I had completely blocked the memory of that particular horrific part of Lynch’s version. I’m assuming you are referring to what my friends and I called “the talking vagina monster’? It was a Spice Guild Navigator. They were a subspecies of human who had been genetically altered by generations of spice addiction. They are only referred to in the first novel and haven’t made an appearance in this version of Dune.
Chetan Murthy
@Brachiator:
100% with you. Debbie asked if it was believable, so hey, I answered. FWIW, I thought it was fun and exciting, and visually lovely, just lovely. I mean, it’s like the Brokenwood Mysteries (a rec I got here): the NZ countryside is just so lovely, it’s like another cast member. Ain’t nuthin’ wrong with that.
MomSense
Not sure if this Instagram link will work but I’m loving this dance. There’s a whole group of dancers who work together snd come up with wonderfully creative and fun dances.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CVGHnrtp22j/?utm_medium=copy_link I’ll take you there
Raven
Not a bite all day but I give you a gulf sunset.
https://flic.kr/p/2mEzz1A
Roger Moore
@germy:
Tesla is moving their HQ to Texas. Their big plant will stay in California.
eclare
@Raven: Gorgeous.
artem1s
@Anotherlurker:
OOOOO! yes that’s one I’ve been waiting on for a while. hmmm. wonder what the televangicals and bible literalists will think of the Pak Protectors?
MagdaInBlack
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Aren’t the Botanic Gardens lovely? Beautiful day for it too.
Brachiator
@tom:
I had the same experience when I recently went to see the new Bond movie, No Time To Die. I went to the Chinese Theater in Hollywood, the first time I had been out to that area since the pandemic. It was good to see people, mainly masked, out enjoying themselves.
Anyway, the endless ads were appalling. There were a mix of trailers. One trailer, for House of Gucci, with a wild cast featuring Lady Gaga and Adam Driver, looked like fun.
I remember trailers being loud, but not this bad. There were other issues when I went to the movies. I think there may be staffing problems. And I am surprised that the management didn’t monitor the sound levels of the trailers and make adjustments.
The studios have a bigger problem. People simply are not returning to the movie theaters for ANY movie in pre-pandemic numbers. They are happy to stay home and stream movies. But I don’t think you can sustain big budget movies from streaming.
Disney is already moving its Marvel slate of films until later. But there are a ton of blockbusters lined up, waiting to come in, like delayed aircraft circling and waiting to land.
Chetan Murthy
@Brachiator:
I don’t remember where I read it, but it was presented as advice from successful SF writers, to newcomers. The idea being that if you break too many of the rules of reality, then you’ll disorient your readers.
Again, I’m not talking about what’s cool and fun: I really like the Gideon the Ninth series, and that’s mosdef not believable. It is pretty cool and fun.
TheflipPsyd
@trnc: i was taught many years ago great literature was defined by its ability to make you feel discomfort. Great literature pushes you, it doesn’t mirror the status quo. I think the whole denigrating of a liberal arts education, and a focus only on STEM as an acceptable career path and major has been a major reason for the state of critical thinking today. The age of reason sure kicked Renaissance thinking in the ass.
sab
@debbie: I was too, and I had read the books. My dad did not read the books and he loved the movie because he loved the sandworms so much. He didn’t care about the unintelligible plot because it had those sandworms.
Sure Lurkalot
@Benw: So, you got to go to CERN and now you’re going to work on DUNE? Kewl!
Benw
@artem1s: happy birthday! I saw it in the theatre today!
Chetan Murthy
@Brachiator:
Back when I used to see movies in theaters, arriving late enough to miss the commercials and trailers was a thing. I wonder how that happens today. Surely information technology has made it easier to skip the crap at the start.
Baud
@Chetan Murthy:
Hmm. Possible rotating tag.
zhena gogolia
@germy:
This part:
is me watching The Hobbit to see Richard Armitage. I just can’t bring myself to give a shit about trolls, orcs, brown wizards, etc., etc. I’m giving it the old college try. But it’s tough. I’m just not into fantasy or sci-fi.
Jeffro
@Anotherlurker: you know, I have that book around here someplace…I really should read it sometime…
Sure Lurkalot
Banning books in 2021. Timeline, I’m living in the wrong one. I’m on in years but who among you with kiddos want to live in a country that’s on a slope to curtail if not in ways ban education? I just can’t wrap my head around this.
SiubhanDuinne
Lead-off homer? Yes, thank you.
Jeffro
@Roger Moore: but…the second half of a(n extremely well-known and beloved) standalone sci-fi novel?
I hear you (about the principle) but for DUNE I’m not buying it. There was no way part II wasn’t going to get made unless it had “Ishtar”-like returns – a near-impossibility given the other factors.
debbie
@Raven:
Beauty!
Baud
Everyone hates Houston, but I’d like to see Dusty Baker get a ring.
West of the Rockies
Always find it odd people who shit all over something they don’t intend to see anyway. (Thinking of the “No way will I stare at sand” Tweet above. Be it LotR, Hamilton, Dune, whatever, no one is forcing you to see it.
Jeffro
@Chetan Murthy: reserved seats and what not make it easy to breeze in just before the movie starts.
But I think for a lot of GenX-and-up, the trailers are part of the fun! How else are we going to know what other movies are coming soon? It’s not like there’s a worldwide network of linked computers and fan sites and…oh… ;)
burnspbesq
Whoopee, a free taco.
Kalakal
@Chetan Murthy: Sandkings is great, I also really like Dying of the light
Chetan Murthy
@Jeffro:
Last movie I saw, was in an Alamo Theater: drinks and food brought to your seat. Yum! And a full-service bar in the lobby. Totally worth the premium price.
zhena gogolia
So they’re going to start singing hymns (masked) in my church this Sunday, although we are still ranked as “Substantial” transmission by the CDC. I guess I’ll have a lot more time for my work on Sunday mornings now. I’m kind of sad. I thought we were following the science. But “people are staying away from church because they can’t sing.” So now I’ll stay away. Have fun.
Ken
We’ll know the series is going downhill when they make “Dune — in Space!“
Elizabelle
@Raven: Gorgeous.
And it doesn’t have Odorama.
SiubhanDuinne
@burnspbesq:
Screw the taco, I was happy he got in scoring position so easily. And scored!
Elizabelle
@zhena gogolia: Please tell them: the early Christians did not meet in churches.
Perhaps an outdoor service. In God’s nature.
It’s what they did during the Black Death …
SiubhanDuinne
@Raven:
What a beautiful picture of an even beautifuler sunset!
Geminid
@Baud: Dusty Baker is a good manager, and a good man.
Jeffro
@Chetan Murthy: Yup! We have one near us, too – saw Shang Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings there a few weeks ago, LOVED it!
Still not to the point where we’re taking masks off in-theater to eat/drink, but we’ll get there.
MomSense
@Sure Lurkalot:
At least there are no witch trials. I mean please tell me they aren’t bringing that back.
Raven
@Baud: Go Bravos!!!
Geminid
@Ken: Or BrigaDune, the Musical.
debbie
@zhena gogolia:
Can you listen online?
lowtechcyclist
@Matt McIrvin:
Or, is it good if you liked the book long ago, but since then were first irritated, then later on amused, by the overseriousness with which the book and everyone in it regard themselves and every casual movement they make?
different-church-lady
I DON’T GIVE A SHIT WHETHER THE NEW DUNE IS ANY BETTER THAN THE OLD DUNE!
THERE! I SAID IT!!1!
(DCL, + a really nice one, but no food…)
Baud
@Raven:
I’m not invested in these teams. Freddie Freeman deserves a ring too.
different-church-lady
YOU LET DAVID LYNCH DIRECT A FILM, YOU GET A DAVID LYNCH KINDA FILM. WHY IS THIS SOMETHING THAT NEEDS EXPLANIFICATION??2?
Kalakal
I’d love to see a film of Larry Niven’s Protector or indeed a whole series of Tales of known space.
And as a bonus for laughs The flying sorcerers
lowtechcyclist
@artem1s:
I’d read a lot of the chatter about the Dune movie, but this thread was the first inkling I’d gotten that this was just ‘Part 1.’
So are they doing just the one book as a trilogy? Or the first three books? Or what? And if just the one book, how far into the book does this movie get?
zhena gogolia
@debbie: Nope. It’s all in person.
MagdaInBlack
@MomSense: Not yet.
trnc
Yes, good points. This fits nicely with republican complaints about being too “intellectual.” As far as STEM careers being respectable, well, not as far as those same republicans are concerned.
trollhattan
@Baud:
My Sox fan bro passes along this gem:
ALCS game 3 in Boston: the fan in the stands with the sign reading, “I had a good sign, but the Astros stole it.”
trollhattan
@lowtechcyclist:
They could hire Peter Jackson and he’d turn Part 2 in to Parts 2a and 2b.
Old Dan and Little Ann
I watched the original Dune in 84 as a 9 year old. I thought it was Fucking horrible. I’ve been confused ever since how anyone could enjoy it. Now Time Bandits on the other hand. : )
trollhattan
@Old Dan and Little Ann:
LOVE “Time Bandits.” Will stop and watch any time it pops up on the teevee.
I wonder how “Buckaroo Bonzai” holds up? Liked it lots back in the day.
Benw
Let’s go Braves!
trollhattan
Programming note: Carli Lloyd’s final game with USWNT is on right now, FS1. South Korea is no Paraguay and has played us tough.
hitless
@zhena gogolia: If it hasn’t been mentioned yet, check out Berlin Station…3 seasons, lots of Armitage no trolls…just spies…and it was enjoyable as well. You can buy it on AZ Prime.
Kalakal
The comments from viewers are really encouraging, I was so disappointed in the ’80s version, it had some good bits but was such a mess. There was the joke at the time
“The winner of last weeks competition “What the bloody hell was Dune all about? ” is… but a nice try by David Lynch who came 5th”
zhena gogolia
@hitless: I’ve bought it! Haven’t watched it yet. It’s too violent for my husband so I have to sneak peeks during the day, during lunch, etc.
MagdaInBlack
@Old Dan and Little Ann: BIG yes on Time Bandits.
cain
@Chetan Murthy:
See this is why I like fantasy – the suspension of belief is already complete since so many laws of physics are broken just to entertain magic. Magic with a lot of glowing stuff – lol
NotMax
@different-church-lady
The Lynch version of Dune is at least as good as is the Bakshi version of Lord of the Rings.
;)
HinTN
@Chetan Murthy: Nor is Zelazny (OK, it’s teen fantasy but whateves) but that’s ok. I’m down with the worms, suits, et al. The first book was brilliant. Let the movie demonstrate that.
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
@Baud: X2
He’s always been one of the good guys
cain
@Jeffro: Now, Jefro, what did we say about having pets? Only if your brother gets his TFG talking robot with steal your wallet grip!
Kay
They have campaign flyers- “Youngkin – Banning Books”
Brachiator
@Chetan Murthy:
The length of flat out advertising onscreen is another sign that theaters are struggling. I suppose you could ask when the actual feature begins, but these days if I am going to the movies, I just want to be comfortable in my seat. But I think these long ass commercials, separate from trailers, will chase some people away from going out to the movies.
JoyceH
@Sure Lurkalot:
Not sure if you’re referring to what’s going on in Texas or in Virginia, but if you mean Virginia, I think Youngkin seriously miscalculated here. He seems to take those screamers at the Loudoun School Board meetings as representative of Loudoun – but the Loudoun folk that I know found those meetings and the attention they received ridiculous and infuriating. By siding with the screamers, I think he’s really motivating NoVa against him. And NoVa is where most of the voters and most of the Democrats are.
HinTN
@Chetan Murthy: And Al in 2000.
Almost Retired
I haven’t read Dune. And I am scrolling through this thread and careening from “I need to start this series pronto,” to “this sounds pretentious and dated.” Ultimately, insofar as I do like giant sand worms, I think I will give the book a try. This is a great book club. Not sure about the movie yet…I can’t see Timothee Chalamet as a lead and not think “Twinks in Space.”
Citizen Alan
@dm: I broke down and read the Wiki synopsis of the Foundation series, and when I found out that [spoiler: half the first season was inexplicably some made up bullshit about Emperor Cleon], I decided to go back to ignoring it.
Wyatt Salamanca
RIP Mort Sahl
Mort Sahl Dies: Groundbreaking Contrarian Comedian Was 94
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/mort-sahl-dies-groundbreaking-contrarian-215312695.html
So long to another American original.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY9g7wx60l4
cain
@Chetan Murthy:
Has Sting weighed in yet?
NotMax
re: some of the above above
Negatory on Time Bandits, sorry to say.
Snap review at the time upon exiting the theater was ” shite on a screengle.”
HinTN
@Chetan Murthy: Sadly, I remember that idiocy. I also remember Frank Zappa’s testimony!
Citizen Alan
@Matt McIrvin: Blasphemy, I know, but I consider the Jackson Ring trilogy to be superior to the books because, unlike Tolkien, Jackson at least knows that pacing is a thing. He ends the first movie with a redemption moment and a moving death scene for Boromir instead of having him wander off to be killed off-screen. And he doesn’t drag the film down with approximately 900 scenes where the hobbits burst into song for no good reason,
cain
@smith: How many of those households have a folder called ‘handjive’ hidden on the family computer filled with things that would make young children horrified?
Cameron
“Dune…Dunester…..El Dunerino if you’re not into the brevity thing…”
NotMax
@Wyatt Salamanca
Aloha, Mort. Agree or nay, it was never not worth listening to what he had to expound.
cain
@Anotherlurker:
I am waiting eagerly for next month when the Wheel of Time series begins!! Yeeha!
I started that series (and it was 4 books in at the time) at 19 years old and finished it when I was 44. It has to be the longest fucking series I have ever had to power through.
I might start reading the series again to prep for the series!
Brachiator
@Jeffro:
Problem is, it’s mostly advertising, not trailers.
Also, and this may be deadly for movie theaters, I hear more people talking about staying home and streaming movies. Or worse, pirating movies. Piracy is a very small segment, but this includes people who were more likely to be frequent movie goers.
And note that even though a couple of trailers I saw looked fun, I will not go to the movies to see these films, but will wait for the streaming.
Fair Economist
@lowtechcyclist:
First book as a multi-parter. They haven’t yet said how many, but I’m assuming 2 parter because they got about halfway through the book. Hobbit-izing it into 3 would be painful because IMO the interest and complexity are mostly frontloaded in the original book.
No word on the sequels. They are universally considered inferior, although there’s a lot of disagreement on *how* inferior. Combined with the substantial time-skip I’m guessing there’s no current plans but they probably are tossing around ideas.
Citizen Alan
@moonbat: Is it fair to view the Fremen as “indigenous people” when they are simply human colonizers who fond Arrakis some indeterminate amount of time before the Empire did? Genuinely curious, as I’ve never read the book.
cain
@HinTN: I loved the princes of amber and it would be a pretty awesome film IMHO. Just the first series, not sure I like the 2nd as much. The Lord of Light was one of the first fantasy novels that was based on Indian mythology which I appreciated.
Brachiator
@Citizen Alan:
I never liked the Ring trilogy novels, but thoroughly enjoyed the movies. Jackson did a great job adapting the books into a great series of films. And I definitely agree with you about the pacing.
NotMax
@Chetan Murthy
Flash from the past.
;)
Citizen Alan
@Roger Moore: Case in point: Atlas Shrugged. All three parts lost money despite the fact that each successive part’s budget was *less* than the one before. Part 3 would never have gotten finished had the producers not been literal Rand cultists. And the part of John Galt went from DB Sweeney in pt 2 to some dude best known for Hallmark romances in pt 3.
Roger Moore
@cain:
I think the Amber series is big enough it would have to be done as a TV series rather than a movie. But yeah, it could be a really cool series.
Ksmiami
@mrmoshpotato: nihilism works as well
O. Felix Culpa
@Darkrose: Thank you!
Citizen Alan
@different-church-lady: I love how it’s “Old” vs. “New,” and we’re all just gonna pretend that the wretched SYFY remake from 2000 just never happened.
Citizen Alan
@trollhattan: “Buckaroo Banzai” is still one of my favorites. Weirdly, I don’t consider it dated, but I also think it was such a product of the 80s that a remake is impossible.
Ken
What else have you been reading that has giant sand worms?
Serious question, I hadn’t realized there was a genre.
brantl
@Chetan Murthy: What, you didn’t have problems with an interstellar empire/monarchy, with kanly? That wasn’t your “bridge too far”? Really?
Almost Retired
@Ken: it’s not but it should be.
brantl
@Old Dan and Little Ann: The original movie sucked poop through an 8 inch pipe. The book was phenomenal.
Ken
@cain: I’d love to see an adaptation of Zelazny’s A Night in the Lonesome October.
Capsule summary: That thing that Universal was trying to do with Van Helsing? Zelazny does it right.
Chetan Murthy
@brantl: Oh, the list of “unbelievable” in Dune is long, very very long. But I suspend disbelief when I read SF, so that’s OK. I’m not gonna write down a list, b/c what’s the point. The reason I bring up the stillsuits is that …. well, it’s like getting wrong the properties of rubber, or of a fireplace, or …. idunno, clothing.
Ken
But part 3 is the part with Galt’s big speech!
Well, OK, it starts around the third act of part 1, and drones on through all of part 2 and half of part 3. But part 3 really brings it home!
NotMax
@Ken
Cooking with Shaddam: 101 Favorite Spice Recipes.
//
Chetan Murthy
@Ken:
I read both The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged. But I could not read his bloody speech: I started it, and after about a page, skipped to the end. Pompous drivel.
dm
@Citizen Alan: I think I decided to ignore the Foundation TV series based on the trailers, figuring if it was any good word-of-mouth would eventually reach me.
Mike E
I’m hate-watching the World Series since I really don’t care for either team, hate the braves (as a recovering phila fan) but rooting for them to sweep the ‘stros just to make it quicker…the eye test tells me they’re peaking at the ideal time.
As for Dune, I remember as a teen how hard it was to start with all the old testament begets but 50-60 pages in it came alive and I relished the rest of the book. I eventually made it all the way to Chapterhouse, heh.
smith
I vaguely remembered something with Kevin Bacon and sand worms, so looked it up. Oh yeah, Tremors. Do two movies make a genre?
Richard Fox
I’ve never read the novel and had only a vague sense of the plot, at best. So I was approaching Dune without preconceived notions, best as I could. For myself I found it too portentous. The characters were difficult to decipher outside of their assigned place in society. I found the main character hard to care about. The only one that had my interest was the mother whose inner sense I felt I had a grasp of. But the dialogue and the mood of the film seemed a steady hum without any peaks. I admired the look of the film for sure but it was hard for me to get invested. So I am intrigued by others raving about it. Funny how that works.
Roger Moore
@Citizen Alan:
The “series that never was” I always go back to is the movie version of His Dark Materials. They made The Golden Compass with a start-studded cast, but it wasn’t successful enough to get sequels*. An example of a series that petered out before the finale was The Chronicles of Narnia, which got bogged down after the third film and hasn’t made it to the fourth book yet.
The big point here is that adaptations of famous novels seem like a sure thing, but they absolutely aren’t. We get a false perception of how big they are because we remember the successes- Harry Potter, The Hunger Games, The Lord of the Rings, etc.- while forgetting the failures. How many people remember attempts to make franchises from Jack Reacher or John Carter?
*Looking at Wikipedia, it sounds as if it was a bit more complex than that. The movie did badly in the US but well enough internationally to be profitable overall. Unfortunately, the studio sold the international rights to fund the production, so they lost money on a profitable movie. The core though- that the studio lost money and decided not to continue the series- is essentially correct.
Jeffro
@Brachiator: eh, in our market, both in the Before Times and all when we went to see Shang-Chi, it was still trailers for the 10-15 min before the movie. There’s ads before that but I never see ’em.
I actually dig buying reserved seats, it’s great.
I hear you that many folks may see the trailer and wait to stream the film at home…but at least they know about the film. There’s SO much ‘product’ out! I don’t know how anyone keeps up with multiple TV series, reality shows, all of it.
lowtechcyclist
@Citizen Alan:
Other than Book 4, which drags a bit in places, I can’t recall any pacing problems at all in LOTR. It really carries most readers along quite well.
And whatever is gained by having Boromir’s redemption on-screen rather than off, is lost many times over by Jackson’s simply skipping past the Gandalf-Saruman confrontation that is the climax of Book 3, along with the siege of Orthanc that precedes it. (Don’t get me started, I’ve got plenty more.) And the numerous songs and poems? I figured out at 14 that you could just skip past them if they didn’t flick your Bic. Although Dildo’s “I sit on the floor and pick my nose” is pretty good…wait, that’s Bored of the Rings, which I also happen to love.
Brachiator
@Chetan Murthy:
I can see that, I suppose. But most people don’t really think that hard about reality. And often the rules of reality would not even apply to a science fiction universe. Like, for example, noisy explosions in space.
Readers quickly adapt to fictional worlds that engage their imaginations.
But obviously there is a lot of SF that extrapolates parts of reality.
Ken
@Chetan Murthy: Your technique for reading Atlas Shrugged sounds like the recommended one for Moby Dick: Skip chapters 21 to 121, which are an excruciatingly detailed whaling manual.
Chetan Murthy
@Richard Fox:
That’s a pity. It’s one of the best SF novels around, and it’s a pity Villeneuve couldn’t translate it to the screen in a way that would capture the interest of non-fanatics. Ah, well.
Jeffro
@Citizen Alan: if I remember correctly, the Fremen originated from a human ‘diaspora’ that occurred well before the events in the original DUNE novel, and then, mostly cut off from the rest of the galaxy, essentially became what we’d think of as the indigenous people of Arrakis.
I’ll stop there b/c it’s been so long since I plowed through the various trilogies. Off to Wikipedia I go since you’ve piqued my interest!
Splitting Image
@Brachiator:
H. G. Wells said this, in a preface to one of his books.
The idea was that, as an author, you want the readers to identify with your characters and a reader will not be able to tell if your heroes are behaving rationally if you throw too many fantastic elements into the story for people to keep up with.
Ms. Deranged in AZ
@cain: I just recently listened to the series on Audible and it was even better.
Tenar Arha
@Jeffro: I really gave up after one of the later novels, don’t remember which.
Of the many shared universe sequels did you mean the Anderson/Herbert Dune: House Corrino, or the later Paul of Dune?
David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch
@Wyatt Salamanca:
PBS did an interesting documentary on him.
He worked for President Kennedy as a writer (punching up speeches with humor). And he was deeply affected by his assassination leading to a derailing of his career.
You can see some clips of the documentary (here #1) and (here #2)
Roger Moore
@lowtechcyclist:
I think the bigger thing is that the pace that works for a book won’t necessarily work for a movie and vice versa. The LotR book’s pacing may not be to everyone’s taste, but it does a good job of telling the tale. Tolkien tries to match the pace of the storytelling to the events it’s telling. The changing point of view in Book III helps to keep the pace up during parts that are supposed to be action filled, while the slower pace in Book IV is supposed to reflect the agonizingly slow pace of Frodo and Sam on their way to Mordor. Using the pace that way is a very good storytelling technique that not every author can pull off.
Cameron
Last night I watched The Killing, an old Stanley Kubrick movie that he both wrote and directed. Christ, it was awful, although unintentionally hilarious.
Ken
I have this vague memory that Doc Savage ended with a teaser where they actually named the sequel, but it never got made.
Aha, confirmed by wikipedia (even if some editor has marked the section “needs additional citations”).
Professor Bigfoot
@cain: Second on both of those from Zelazny.
I particularly loved how cleverly he slipped in: “…and that was when the fit hit the Shan.”
Richard Fox
@Chetan Murthy: sometimes it’s preferable to read the novel. I might just do that and get the flavor of it as it so highly thought of by so many folks. I’ll consider the movie as an appetizer. :-)
Mike E
@lowtechcyclist: I couldn’t start lotr as a kid and waited until I watched the 1st Jackson movie before finally getting past Tom Bombadil and reading the whole damn thing. Three. Times. After watching the 2nd movie I knew Peter Jackson was in trouble, and the 3rd film imho suffered from biting off more than it could chew. I love it that Jack Nicholson bumped into Elijah Wood and gave him what for, asking “What the fuck was with all those endings?”
Benw
@Sure Lurkalot: somewhat strangely, we’re building the DUNE prototypes at CERN!
NotMax
So old that first read what became Dune as installments in Analog magazine (all emphasis added).
Jeffro
@Tenar Arha: I was suggesting that folks read the original DUNE and then the Brian Herbert/Kevin J Anderson prequel trilogy that leads right up to it: House Atreides, House Harkonnen, and House Corrino.
They also wrote a prequel trilogy to the prequel trilogy(!) which was pretty good, but not quite as compelling as the ‘House’ trilogy. I think it was Butlerian Jihad, Machine Crusade, and Battle of Corrin (which is usually referred to as the ‘Legends of DUNE’ trilogy)
PS at this point, I have trouble keeping it all straight…there have been a LOT of additional books cranked out by Herbert & Anderson! But “Paul of Dune” and “Winds of Dune” are set in-between the original DUNE and the next book, DUNE MESSIAH.
Brachiator
@Wyatt Salamanca:
Just read his obit in Variety. I remember seeing him on TV. I was a pre-teen, but his political humor really appealed to me.
I have read that his reaction to the JFK assassination really hit him hard and derailed his career.
He’s credited with having the first stand up comedy album.
dogsinc.
Holy shit, the SF discussion tonight makes me think most commenters are 14 years old. Well, at least it isn’t another Manchin Sinema thread. Have at me if you must. Don’t care. Merely an observer of many years. Out of here.
NotMax
@Cameron
Just goes to show ya. Sterling Hayden, Marie Windsor and Elisha Cook Jr. are stellar in it, IMHO.
JWR
WTF PBS? On tonight’s snooze-hour, they did a bit on paid leave, and every one of their example, or sample people, (those who benefit from paid leave), were POC. Good thing no white people ever need paid leave, huh? Nice segment, if you’re a f*ckin’ Republican, Or Joe Manchin. (Link)
As for Dune: I tried reading it, but couldn’t make it through the first hundred pages, mainly, I think, because I could not get into Frank Herbert’s writing style. I tried 3 times to read another Herbert book, I think it was The Pandora Sequence, before giving up on Herbert entirely. A friend read the entire Dune series and loved it. Go figger.
Just One More Canuck
@Chetan Murthy: anecdotally, I would say the opposite is true. When LOTR came out, my wife had never read the books but loved loved loved the movie. She dove into the books and loved them too but realized that they had to cut huge parts to keep a movie audience engaged
tom
@CaseyL: Yeah, I didn’t get that vibe from the books either, but in the movie the Fremen are played by Black and Brown people, they wondered if Paul was the One, and of course Timothée Chalamet is very, uh, white. So there was that vibe in the movie.
Kalakal
@Jeffro: Intersting, I’ve never even heard of all these prequels etc, I read the originals years ago and never expected more after Herbert died. I must take alook (afer first rereading some very old, dogeared paperbacks. Thanks!
frosty
@different-church-lady: All David Lynch films are just a variation of Eraserhead.
Lacuna Synecdoche
@Jeffro:
Depending on how it did? Sure. When the first film in the His Dark Materials trilogy flopped, they cancelled the rest of it.
But it was never likely. Denis Villeneuve is a good, artistic, director and his movies are typically profitable. Studios like that.
zhena gogolia
@NotMax: Yeah, I was really disappointed in that one.
Wyatt Salamanca
@Brachiator:
@David ? ☘The Establishment☘? Koch:
Somewhere I read that Johnny Carson invited Jim Garrison to be a guest on the Tonight Show after repeated requests from Mort Sahl and once he came on the show Carson gave him a fairly tough interview.
Also in the 1980’s, Sahl referred to Alexander Haig as a friend. He was definitely one of a kind.
Years ago, I was watching a documentary, the title of which escapes me, and it included a snippet of a discussion between Mort Sahl and Steve Allen. I’d love to be able to track down the complete footage of that conversation.
The Pale Scot
@Brachiator:
I remember the first movie theater commercial I encountered. It started with an Amtrak train pulling into a station. For a few seconds I could feel the confusion in the audience. It snapped into my brain and I loudly proclaimed, ” Oh Go Fuck Yourself”. A few seconds later everyone knew what it was and booed. I never saw another ad in that theater. That was waay back in the day
Brachiator
@Lacuna Synecdoche:
I’ve read that Bladerunner 2049 lost $80 million. But I agree that Villeneuve is talented.
L85NJGT
I streamed it on HBOMax, it was fine, but not as entertaining as Tremors. It drags in the last twenty minutes, and the source material is probably more amenable to a twelve episode series.
@Brachiator:
You’ll hear auteur directors of the old white male variety grouse about watching on hand held devices, but that’s the deal these days.
frosty
@smith: Sandworms? Beetlejuice.
hilts
@different-church-lady:
Meet the new Dune, same as the old Dune.
(With apologies to Pete Townshend)
Jeffro
@Kalakal: happy reading!
I found this link to help keep it all straight.
Again: DUNE + ‘House’ prequel trilogy is my best recommendation.
Looks like B. Herbert & KJA have managed to start a new prequel trilogy squeezed in between even the ‘House’ trilogy and DUNE, though…it’s a wonder!
Fair Economist
@Mike E: Jack Nicholson of all people should know Elijah Wood had no control over Jackson putting five endings or whatever, in sequence, into RotK.
Too bad he cut the Scouring of the Shire because that would have served as a kind of jump scare after the multiple celebratory endings earlier. Which is effectively how it works in the book. Then the last endings are more bittersweet so the book ends on far less cloying a note.
Brachiator
@frosty:
Eraserhead is still one of the strangest films I’ve ever enjoyed.
But Lynch was the wrong director for Dune. The producers thought they would get something like Star Wars. They even planned on movie tie-in toys for Christmas.
Wrong sensibility.
Jeffro
@Lacuna Synecdoche: yeah, much lesser-known trilogy there with HDM too.
I wouldn’t bet on the ‘Thomas Covenant Chronicles’ making it past the first movie either.
JWR
@JWR: No, it wasn’t that parallax book or series I didn’t like, it was The Santaroga Barrier. Couldn’t slog through that one at all.
Mike E
@Fair Economist: Sure, make the last movie even longer and more ungainly. Way to miss the point. But hey, at least Jackson got to make three Hobbits movies!
Jeffro
@Brachiator: if you Google “Dune 1984 action figure”…well…it’s hard to imagine a kid’s reaction to opening those particular toys on Christmas morning.
“Oh man, BARON HARKONNEN!” lol
Could just as easily have been a potato with a frowny-face sticker at the top.
But I bet they’re going for an arm and a leg on eBay…
prostratedragon
@Raven: Ooooh, thanks!
James E Powell
@Citizen Alan:
The SYFY mini-series was so much better than Lynch’s film that I really didn’t think it was that bad. I’ve never re-watched, likely never will, but I wonder what I would think about it now.
Brachiator
@L85NJGT:
When I went to see Scorsese’s adaptation of The Age of Innocence, I made sure to get a middle seat about two thirds distant from the screen. Movies are made to be seen on a big screen, and with an audience.
But sometimes you gotta compromise. And even apart from that, as you note, people want to watch on whatever device they have at hand.
PST
@Citizen Alan:
That could be the dictionary definition of “indigenous people.” Human colonizers who got there before some empire did.
Chetan Murthy
@PST: From the book, the Fremen seem to have been enslaved and oppressed wherever they went, on many planets.
Kalakal
@Jeffro: Wow. How did I miss all that? Thank you very much, much reading ahead!
NotMax
May be of interest – Frank Herbert’s essay on the Lynch Dune.
L85NJGT
@Brachiator:
Yep. Set your site line at the top of the screen. I don’t know how anyone can stand TVs 10-12 feet up on the wall.
CaseyL
@tom: True, but that isn’t what I meant.
(And actually, even when I first read the book back in the mid-1980s, I picked up on the who-are-the-Fremen-supposed-to-be? The book having been written in the mid-60s, it was even odds whether they were supposed to be Israelis or Palestinians, with the Emperor’s Sardauker easily being analogs of either the German SS or the IDF!)
No, the point I was trying to make was that the I didn’t feel a “white savior” vibe because the entire Paul-as-Savior prophecy was said, in the book itself, to be fraudulent. It was an outright invention by the Bene Gesserit.
Whether Herbert himself, as the original author, intended to invoke White-man-as-savior is also, to my mind, questionable. The Freman are presented as the only decent society on Arrakis; the bravest, fiercest, bravest, etc. Paul isn’t presented as the white boy who saves them by establishing himself as ruler of Arrakis; he is presented (IMO) as an accidentally superpowered individual who aligns himself with the Freman as their liberator because he has grown to hate and distrust everything about his upbringing, heritage, and destiny.
(I have no idea if the film touches on this, or goes for a more conventional superhero treatment.)
PJ
@lowtechcyclist:
This movie covers the first half of Dune. The second movie, which just got the green light today, will cover the second half of Dune. Villeneuve has said that he wants to make a third movie that covers Dune Messiah. He didn’t mention wanting to film any of the other books, so presumably he just wants to cover Paul’s story. My guess is that if everything works out, he would “executive produce” any subsequent Dune movies directed by others.
NotMax
Also may be of interest: trailer for the documentary about the Dune that never was.
PJ
@CaseyL: In the movie, the Bene Gesserit, many centuries before, planted the idea of a messiah called the Lisan al Gaib (if I caught it correctly) on Arrakis in order to assist one whom the Sisters thought might be the Kwisatz Haderach (it’s clear there are other, more likely candidates besides Paul.)
CaseyL
@PJ: “Lisan al Gaib” – Thank you! I couldn’t remember what their term for the messiah was.
Planting that seed centuries before it was ever going to be needed seems like such a stretch – but I think, in either Dune or one of the immediate sequels, someone goes into detail about how Jessica and Leto’s daughter (if Jessica had obeyed her SIsterhood and had a daughter first) would have been married off to someone in House Corrino, and their offspring would have been the Kwisatz Haderach – in other words, Paul was just one generation too early. If I’m remembering correctly.
PJ
@CaseyL: I also read the books in the ’80s, and it seemed obvious to me at the time that the Fremen were just a stand in for the Arabs, their culture was all borrowed from Arabic culture, and spice, of course, was just oil.
As was clear in the books, and is pretty obvious from the dreams Paul has in the current movie, Paul’s role as “savior” is going to be accompanied by buckets of blood. The Fremen, encouraged by the Bene Gesserit, were looking for a messiah, and got one. The Bene Gesserit were trying to create a messiah, and did. Whether this is a good thing for anyone is one of the main questions the books and the movies ask of the readers/audience.
Chetan Murthy
@PJ:
I could be mistaken, but it always seemed to me there was a big Lawrence of Arabia vibe in Herbert’s portrayal of Paul.
PJ
@CaseyL:
My take was that the BG play an extremely long game, and hedge all of their bets. There are many candidates for KH, and for centuries they have been preparing to assist in the success of whomever that ends up being. That, at some point, they would need help from Arrakis, the only source of spice, which is critical for space travel and the galactic economy, should be no surprise.
PJ
@Chetan Murthy:
Yep. Both are manipulating the local people in the service of a much larger war, and both are fascinated by the local culture. Lawrence, of course, never became or wanted to be a leader of the Arabs (and could not have been accepted as one) the way that Paul ends up being due to the prophecy.
SFBayAreaGal
@smith: Tremors was a great movie.
eddie blake
@Chetan Murthy: dead thread, so i dunno, maybe someone already answered you-
the suits are powered. pumps in the heels and your breathing power mini coils that run the moisture sinks.
eddie blake
@Jeffro: hard to make a series successful when your hero is a rapist, and that rape happens in the beginning of the first story.
eddie blake
also, there are layers…MANY layers to a stillsuit. so you sweat, one layer absorbs it, your body cools down, it goes to another layer where the reclamators go to work, etc.
it’s like you guys skimmed the books?
Bill Arnold
@PJ:
Yeah.
From one perspective, Dune (the novel) is about a theological engineering project by a order of arrogant female [witches], led by functionally immortal members who each have a long line of female ancestral memories, who subtly guide/dominate politics in a large part of the universe, and how their project goes awry, with the development of, essentially, a mortal god (though still human, not omniscient) who can and does select from possible futures including long term futures. (His interactions with the indigenous and culturally interesting inhabitants of Arrakis were not anticipated by the BG.)
The guild navigators are a specialized form of this, basically navigating infinite possibilities presented by some sort of space drive to a future where the ship arrives at its intended destination.
The Spice enhances the ability to see possible futures (the guild navigators literally marinate themselves in it), and in Paul, it amplifies his nascent, and illicitly trained by his highly-disciplined BG mother, abilities in this regard.
The Spice also extends human lifespan, by a factor of 3-4(?), so it is an extremely valuable commodity.
FWIW, Herbert’s attempts at description of prescience were inspired by psilocybin mushrooms. (And also by the biology of fungi in general.)
eddie blake
@Bill Arnold: i thought the guild navigators ALSO folded time and space and made interstellar travel possible, which was why they were all in on the anti-atreides conspiracy, because without spice, their guild would fall, along with the empire.
Chetan Murthy
@eddie blake: No, I read the book …. many times. When your body sweats and the water evaporates, it takes away heat. If a layer way in the stillsuit that vapor condenses, then the heat remains: it needs to be radiated away ….. somehow. How does that happen? There’s convection, conduction, and radiation, right? Convection requires a working fluid (which was sweat/water vapor, but that’s been recovered, so no go). Conduction can get you to the surface of the suit, but how does it get you -off- the suit? And then there’s radiation, but that requires some fins, and a mechanism (like a heat pump) to get those fins hotter than the surrounding (desert) air, to radiate that heat.
How does that happen, and how does it happen without violating the laws of thermodynamics.
Sure, it’s entertaining. And sure, we can just ignore it. But like I said, it’s a glaring “breaking of normal rules”.
Chetan Murthy
@eddie blake: I’m aware that in the book, the suits are powered by foot-pumps and the wearer’s breath. There are thermodynamic limitations to how much heat you can move with a given amount of work, and it seems pretty clear that the work you can get out of someone pressing on foot-pumps and breathing out is pretty insubstantial, and esp. so compared to the entire energetic output of the body. [ETA] And the heat that needs to be dissipated is that from the entire body. In a way, we’re back to issues like “wet bulb temperatures” that we were discussing some months back.
Again, it’s all very …. compelling, very fun, very engaging. It’s just not believable.
eddie blake
@Chetan Murthy: pretty sure, as i said, it’s not just pumps, it’s pumps moving magnets up and down through micro-coils subsequently agitating electrons and making a current…and it’s a BAZILLION years in the future.
wet bulb doesn’t apply, because the moisture is moved away from your skin…through pumps. “the skin-contact layer’s porous. perspiration passes through it, having cooled the body … near-normal evaporation process.”
Chetan Murthy
@eddie blake:
Right, and this is where the “imagine an entirely different kind of physics” sort of things comes in, right? Only, this is the laws of thermodynamics, and you’re talking about something pretty basic at that point. Saying “well, we’re going to use some sort of magical microcircuitry” doesn’t change that those laws put limits on the efficiency of heat engines that are independent of the method of implementation.
I mean, we might as well imagine a perpetual motion machine.
eddie blake
@Chetan Murthy: or a stirling engine, moving on tiny variances of heat, which we have NOW?
i’m just saying. we can make carbon nanotubes. a tiny-ass series of conductive coils wrapped around magnets to run a micro-power plant isn’t that far fetched NOW.
i’m not quite sure what your issue is. when i mentioned the time-lapse, i just meant it in the sense that their manufacturing prowess and miniaturization prowess would increase and far eclipse OURS, as is demonstrated by paul’s awfully tiny orange-catholic bible, with its built-in magnifier.
eddie blake
@Chetan Murthy: now, you wanna argue that it’s mindbogglingly stupid to wear layers upon layers of a BLACK bodysuit in the middle of a desert, FINE. that i’m all down with. that shit will make you sweat even MORE.
but i’m pretty sure the technology is TOTALLY projectible and not at all tearing the fabric of disbelief.
eddie blake
@Chetan Murthy: also, also- the fluid packs are at the edge of the suit, on the top layer. the water starts at the legs and is pumped upwards so it’s accessible by the suit-wearer for drinking. several times, we’re told how warm the water is, but by being on the top layer, i think it solves your radiation issue.
(as long as where they are in their suits is arid. a stillsuit wouldn’t work in a jungle.)
lowtechcyclist
Yeah, I think we all needed a break from those, regardless of one’s take on Dune.
lowtechcyclist
@Jeffro:
I can’t imagine anyone being crazy enough to try to make a movie out of Lord Foul’s Bane.
yellowdog
@Citizen Alan: Humans only arrived in the America’s somewhere between 14,00 and 40,000 years ago. So are the Aztecs, Maya, Iroquois, Sioux, Cheyenne, etc. not indigenous peoples?
bluefoot
@Baud:
It sounds like a description of our current reality…
kindness
I saw Dune in the theater on Saturday. My first post-covid movie. This movie is much more like the books version as far as the feel went. The movie only covers up to when Paul and his mother meet the Freemen after the Harkonen takeover. So a 3 movie group will cover the 1st 3 books.
I really liked it. I watched the first movie but it sucked even with Sting. The HBO miniseries was better but this is far better than either. Yea I loved the books in high school. I’m one of those people.