“A Russia to delight in and not to fear: a peaceful Russia, a Russia without Putin”
That’s one brave lady. pic.twitter.com/tBNH9RDbFS
— Dr. Ian Garner (@irgarner) March 8, 2022
Short and straight to the point from Biden pic.twitter.com/GSX0hujU36
— Joseph Zeballos-Roig (@josephzeballos) March 8, 2022
U.S. President Joe Biden announced a ban on Russian oil and other energy imports in retaliation for the invasion of Ukraine, underscoring strong bipartisan support for a move that he acknowledged would drive up U.S. energy prices https://t.co/OXu9ClmhTZ pic.twitter.com/5tgSVGfRky
— Reuters (@Reuters) March 8, 2022
Biden, at White House, warned companies not to price gouge as “Putin’s war against the people of Ukraine” causes prices to rise. “It’s no excuse to exercise excessive price increases for padding profits or any kind of effort to exploit this situation for American consumers.”
— Jennifer Jacobs (@JenniferJJacobs) March 8, 2022
Some 80% of respondents in the poll – including solid bipartisan majorities – said Americans should not buy oil or gas from Russia during the conflict even if it causes gasoline prices to increase.
— Idrees Ali (@idreesali114) March 9, 2022
Ed O’Keefe, ‘covert’ GOP operative:
good luck finding these media stunts when gas hit $4.18 under W. Bush ($5.25 w/ inflation today) https://t.co/geQwRyKura
— Eric Boehlert (@EricBoehlert) March 7, 2022
I doubt this is a ‘real’ stamp, but then again, somewhere in my papercrafting bins I’ve got some very pretty ‘real’ postage stamps from at least one country that never quite existed, apart from all the ‘for sale to tourists & collectors’ beauties from small Caribbean and Central Asian nations…
Ukraine’s postal service have issued a series of 20 stamps around the “Russian warship, **** off” theme. They are primitive in style, but will find an appreciative audience here pic.twitter.com/vkETABu56I
— Oliver Carroll (@olliecarroll) March 8, 2022
lollipopguild
In theory, a Russia without Putin, a peaceful and democratic Russia, could be a wonderful country, a country that people from all over the world might want to live in. Instead we have a country that people are fleeing and want nothing to do with.
OzarkHillbilly
Well, at her age she has no fucks left to give.
brendancalling
Speaking of fleeing, Missouri wants to make it a felony for anyone to transport a woman out of state to obtain an abortion, and Idaho wants to deny gender-affirming care to trans teens—and make it a felony for their families to move out of state.
These people are psychotic.
SFAW
Re: the US government mandating increased gas prices in order to screw over economically anxious working class ‘Muricans: Thanks, Obama!
Old School
It looks like the Ukraine post office currently has voting on 20 stamp candidates and one of them will be made into the actual stamp.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@lollipopguild:I think the Russia is doomed to another strongman rule after Putin because the corruption is so out of control there that even a one party rule like the PRC has wouldn’t be viable. Heck, even the priests are on the take in Russia.
trollhattan
@brendancalling:
Does Missouri also want me to pay Missouri sales tax on items I buy here in California? I’ll have to factor that into my household budget.
brendancalling
@trollhattan: “An America to delight in and not to fear: a peaceful America, an America without right wing God-bothering authoritarians attacking women and children.”
Tenar Arha
@brendancalling: I’d heard re Missouri, didn’t know re Idaho. I’m sure that this is happening because of the extremist 6 on the Supreme Court who’ve already shown they won’t enjoin this isht. They know they won’t be stopped, so they’re trying out new radical ways to coerce people and abridge their rights.
I’m workshopping a new protest sign, but this feels a bit too long winded:
Stop radical GOP legislatures stealing our rights, EXPAND THE SUPREME COURT.
ETA replaced emoji
scav
@brendancalling: Those freedom lovers sure know how to love and enforce their freedoms.
The Show Me Your Papers State! Wonder if they’ll hold family members hostage so that people return from vacations.
Ken
@brendancalling: Why don’t they work on our real problems™, like high gas prices? They should pass a law so no one can charge more than
$3$225 cents a gallon for gas.(Note: “high gas prices” is from the latest memo I received from the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy mailing list. The real problem™ may have changed by the time you read this.)
OzarkHillbilly
@brendancalling: Also in Misery:
I can’t help noticing it wouldn’t bar the GOP from doing business with Russia.
.
mrmoshpotato
@Tenar Arha:
comrade scotts agenda of rage
I’m guessing those gas station patrons just came from their Ohio diner after having breakfast.
Ken
@OzarkHillbilly: Here’s where we find out that Missouri, like Kentucky, decided to invest the teacher’s retirement fund with some Russian bank. (For completely sound financial reasons, totally uninfluenced by politics or politicians.)
Matt McIrvin
@lollipopguild: Russia’s contributions to the arts and sciences are so extraordinary that it pains me to see it in this state. But tyrannical government there has been more the norm than the exception, and they haven’t historically seen a lot of material benefit from their periods of relative liberalism–would-be tyrants can easily associate democracy with chaos. I don’t know how to solve it.
jnfr
These laws trying to force people to submit, like the Missouri and Idaho proposals that popped up yesterday, are sending me into something of a depression. They really want to trap us in their miserable, ugly world. I don’t want to share a country with these people, and I don’t see how to get quit of them.
I don’t feel personally endangered here in Colorado at the moment, but this shit spreads.
Calouste
Slight crack in the unified propaganda from Russia. Wondering how much we should read into Putin being contradicted by his underlings :
Russia’s defence ministry has admitted some conscript soldiers are taking part in the Russian invasion of Ukraine – despite multiple denials by its president Vladimir Putin.
The ministry said some conscripts – soldiers compulsorily drafted into the army – had been taken prisoner by the Ukrainian army.
“We have discovered several facts of the presence of conscripts in units taking part in the special military operation in Ukraine. Practically all such soldiers have been pulled out to Russia.”
Just yesterday, Putin had said Russia will not use any conscript soldiers in Ukraine in a televised message to mark International Women’s Day.
”I emphasize that conscript soldiers are not participating in hostilities and will not participate in them.”
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: The reporter just happened to have chosen a gas station in Hagerstown, MD to start talking to ordinary Americans.
Villago Delenda Est
The vile parasites that are the Awl Corporation execs will of course price gouge; they’ve been doing so for the past year.
ArchTeryx
@Matt McIrvin: Authoritarian rule is deep, DEEP in Russian culture and has been for centuries. You don’t convert a culture that steeped in Havelock Vetinari “democracy” to an actual democracy except through a generations-long process… and it easily backslides to authoritarianism again during that long gradual culture change.
“I believe in one man, one vote. I am the man, and I have the vote.”
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Put that quote with this statement
https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1501331809749114884?s=20&t=gdPRrjOC5Snc_Zf-Arj_XQ
Villago Delenda Est
@Calouste: Putin’s lying. Stop the presses! Next you’ll be telling me that TFG lies!
lowtechcyclist
@brendancalling:
‘I have a dream…’
Kay
@jnfr:
Maybe, but maybe not:
The “this happened” is the “Teacher Loyalty Oath” they intended to mandate also died.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Ken:
Turns out that one of my law school classmates is a principal officer of the Kentucky Teachers’ Retirement System. Guy has a room temperature IQ and made most of his career as a flunky reviewing qualified domestic relations orders for ERISA compliance – that they did this fits.
Put another way, he pompously puts “JD” after his name on the letterhead, I guess to emulate the MBAs and CPAs he works with. I’ve never seen a lawyer do that before.
no comment
@Tenar Arha:
My suggestion is even longer:
Don’t let them decide your rights!
[pic of Amy CB] [pic of Brett K]
[short list of reasons* underneath or beside each picture, in smaller print, so it doesn’t distract from the main message]
EXPAND THE SUPREME COURT!
*examples would be: unqualified, extreme religious beliefs for Amy; alcoholic, rapist, unprofessional, who paid his debts? for Brett
jnfr
@Kay:
People do fight back, it’s true, and knowing that helps keep me sane. But it’s all so relentless.
Another Scott
@Villago Delenda Est: VVP isn’t lying. He’s probably telling his generals they better win quickly, no matter what, while also telling them that they better not use conscripts.
That’s some catch, that Catch Dvadtsat’ Dva.
Cheers,
Scott.
Baud
@Kay:
?
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@ArchTeryx:
This.
1. All societies have learned defects that blind them to acculturated predispositions to accept certain messages or styles of leadership that lead to disaster. In the US, that defect is primarily casual racism accompanied by folksy simplicity. In Western Europe (and in parts of the US most like Western Europe), the defect is primarily deference to elegantly dressed people who display trappings of success. In the Slavic world, the cultural marker which presents the biggest danger is that of the cocksure autocrat.
2. These predispositions aren’t easily driven down – acceptance of this type of leadership is built from childhood fables, family history, religious upbringing and tales of the adventures of forebears and mentors and the extent to which elders are to be venerated.
In the case of Eastern Europe, the history is complex and tortured, and deliverance from oppression is usually related to particularly galvanizing figures.
Captain C
@brendancalling:
And sadistic. I really think that’s part of the appeal of shit like this. If they can convince themselves they’re doing it in their god’s name, so much the better.
Captain C
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: Russia has a history, since Ivan the Terrible at minimum, of going between strongmen (and one -woman), think Peter the Great, Catherine the Great, Stalin, Putin; and chaos (the 1990s under Yeltsin were the most recent example). I’m not sure how they get out of it any time soon.
different-church-lady
Republican Culture Warship, go fuck yourself.
Captain C
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
“Do your librul readers know how expensive it is to drive an empty truck around the Beltway all day, every day, and not even get noticed?! DO THEY?!?”
different-church-lady
Wait ’til these folks hear about the price of housing.
rikyrah
@brendancalling:
the whole felony to move out of state.
what, they think they own people now?
different-church-lady
@brendancalling: Time to study up on how the Underground Railroad worked.
trollhattan
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
The fuckers shelled a Mariupol maternity and children’s hospital.
Glem will now scold the U.S. for forcing Vlad to do this; what other choice did he have?
Baud
@different-church-lady:
If the Republicans take over in 2025, I expect we’ll see them pass a Fugitive Womb Law.
ian
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
It is also a historical trend in Russia that rarely escapes the trajectory of one man rule. In the 1800s one of the Czars, (I want to say Alexander II) introduced a semi-independent duma that quickly evolved into chaos and anarchy, and was rescinded not long after. The Kerensky government of 1917 was also somewhat pluralistic, but that did not last long. The brief Yeltsin period was technically a democracy, but the oligarchic class controlled all the power. It is hard to establish pluralistic power sharing governments in a country that has had so little practice with them
Edit: what # 21 said- didn’t read the thread before responding
Jeffro
@Tenar Arha:
@mrmoshpotato:
how about just EXPAND THE COURT, all done up in red, white, and blue?
rikyrah
@jnfr:
Just anger me.
No…you can’t leave our state. You must stay and be forced to submit.
phuck that shyt.
different-church-lady
@Baud: Margaret Atwood is screaming, “IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A CAUTIONARY TALE!!!”
phdesmond
@trollhattan:
i believe that’s called “use tax” and already exists in many states.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Captain C: Yes, but this time seems really over the top, doesn’t it? It was Charles the XII of Sweden who was the willful idiot in the Great Northern War with Peter the Great and Stalin had every reason to think the Red Army would steamroll the Finnish Army in the Winter War of 1939 until it didn’t. The whole the corruption is so wide spread the Russian army is impotent because of it, the dictator knows it but insists his ministers lie to him about it anyway; something is seriously broke there even for Russia.
Jeffro
it’s a common problem, right? =)
small-d democrats should be remind the people CONSTANTLY that democracy is messy and sometimes over-promises/under-delivers…but it sure as hell beats being ruled by a dictator or living in a theocracy
scav
@rikyrah: Hey, state-based villeinage would help guarantee a low-wage stable workforce to attract companies to their fair states, plus keep those uppity little ambulatory uteruses doing what they should.
different-church-lady
Another thing to be Biden-thankful about: he’s getting in front of this crypto madness. Past administrations would just wait until the house was “fully involved“.
Librarian
@ian: Tsarist Russia experienced parliamentary government from 1906 to 1917. under the constitution of 1906. In 1864, one of Alexander II’s reforms was the introduction of zemstvos, or local self-government assemblies, but these lasted until 1917.
Kay
Kay
trollhattan
No.
No.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
I’ll take wildfires and earthquakes and drought, over this.
laura
@brendancalling: the fugitive slave act returns and identifies women as property and encourages vigilantism for profit. Fuck every last one of these fuckers and every fucker that votes for this shit.
Gin & Tonic
@ian:
Ukraine. Not perfect, of course, but has done pretty well recently (until now.)
Baud
@trollhattan:
Hahahaha. That’s going to be awesome.
trollhattan
@phdesmond: Pretty sure California has that but we can’t levy taxes on Missouri residents for their purchases in Missouri, or anywhere other than California, where we’ll tax the holy hell out of them, thankyavermuch.
If a Missouri resident cares to come use our Abortionplex, I do not see how they can reach their legal arm two time zones west and punish the client or the client’s family and friends.
different-church-lady
@laura: “I never thought the Enslave Everyone’s Womb Party was going to enslave my womb!!1!”
Steeplejack
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Source? Or is that you talking?
Gin & Tonic
laura
@scav: And yet, nobody ever proposes outlawing sperm. Funny old world. \\
scav
@trollhattan: Bubonic Plague on shipping containers? Terrifying colors and seasonal life cycles! over-egging it a little.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@laura: You know, I always wondered why the abolitionist didn’t go full smart ass along the line of Ben Butler defining slaves as military contraband and call for the imprisonment of any fugitive slave for stealing themselves from their master (kidnapper?).
“Sorry, Mr Jefferson but you can have Jim back when he’s done serving twenty years for grand theft. We are a nation of laws after all and your’ property stealing from you just will not do. ”
And let the plantation owners choke on their mint juleps.
Kay
@laura:
Pay attention to the lack of agency and independent will they assign women too- the person who assists the woman is the felon. Women aren’t even independent actors – people- enough to be held responsible for their decisions.
The woman doesn’t even exist in these laws. She’s a wholly passive receptacle for a pregnancy. There’s the pregnancy, the person who assists (felon) and then the religious enforcer who reports the person assisting.
You won’t find any state statute on any subject even remotely like this, where an adult is simply omitted as an actor. It’s worse than a statute targeting pregnant women. In these laws she doesn’t even exist.
Captain C
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: It’s what happens when you mix traditional Russian politics with mafia and Postmodernism. It’s really surreal in addition to being really screwed up. Peter Pomerantsev’s book Nothing is True, Everything is Possible: The Surreal Heart of the New Russia gives a good accounting of this.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Steeplejack:
Babbling out observations over a lifetime.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Gin & Tonic:
It has occurred to me that thanks to the veto, the UN is utterly worthless at serving its core function.
zhena gogolia
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: EVEN the priests?
Villago Delenda Est
@trollhattan:
Glem needs a drone up his ass.
Villago Delenda Est
@different-church-lady: It’s a duet with George Orwell.
Calouste
@Villago Delenda Est: Putin’s lying is not news indeed. The Russian Ministry of Defense contradicting him, even ever so slightly, is.
Kattails
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: “Room temperature IQ” LOL I’m stealing that. Does that mean TFG’s is “veggie crisper”?
Mike in NC
We visited Saint Petersburg in 2014 just as Putin was screwing around in Crimea. Really enjoyed the experience. Might be awhile until the tourists return.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Captain C: Ok, I will keep an eye out for that book.
Ken
@scav: Could be worse. (Slight spoiler ahead.)
In Charles Stross’s The Apocalypse Codex, a Lovecraftian cult masquerading as a “quiverful” evangelistic church* kidnaps young runaways and severs their spinal cords, so they can be used as passive baby factories. That may have been the most horrible thing in a story featuring dead Elder Gods, human sacrifice, and mind-controlling parasites.
* Not much of a disguise, really.
Villago Delenda Est
@Kay: Which is what the entire forced-birth movement is all about; denying women agency, returning them to the status of chattel.
kindness
You know as soon as the Supreme Court tossed Roe later this spring, the God-botherers are going to do everything they can to Federalize anti-abortion laws right? We know that is coming. Our MSM is failing us (again) by not calling out the hypocrisy of Republican beliefs.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@zhena gogolia: Tom Nichols said last night on MSNBC that the Russian Church has been a key supporter of Putin, both historically and specifically wrt the invasion. I knew Putin had always promoted the idea that he was a defender of the faith, etc, but I always assumed that was deeply cynical. I’d seen the Patriarch’s (if that’s the right title) statements of support of the war, heard about that some high cleric was saying that gays caused the war, but I wasn’t aware that any religious had specially supported/promoted the idea of taking over Ukraine. I was hoping he would/will expand on the idea
He said as a member of the (Greek) Orthodox Church, it breaks his heart to see it.
gene108
@ian:
Hard, but not impossible.
India went from colonial rule, with about a dozen years of limited home rule to a stable democracy for over 70 years.
The leadership has to be committed to the idea of representative government.
@trollhattan:
??♀️ Me not having rain of spiders on my 2022 bingo card.
?♀️?Wishing rain of free massages would plague us instead.
@Kay:
Masking is such a simple idea. A physical barrier limits the distance a person’s respiration can travel.
We’ve all been taught as preschoolers and kindergartners to cover our mouths, when we cough or sneeze because we know an impromptu barrier like hands or your arm reduces the spread of respiratory germs. Even the biggest anti-mask idiot out there was taught this.
But somehow masks “don’t work” to prevent the spread of respiratory germs, because of many convoluted reasons. Like so much else, it’s impossible to have a rational debate with people stubbornly determined to be irrational about things.
TL;DR: I’ve given up hope that people will mask or let schools require masks. The debate is on a “what shall we have for dinner?” level stupid where “I’d like Italian, but my date wants tire rims and anthrax”.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@zhena gogolia: Yes, the Russian stuff I have seen really slag on the corruption of the Greek Orthodox Church. The Patriarch who was mouthing off Sunday this is because of Gay Parades is infamous for wearing multiple rolexes and so on.
Calouste
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: JD is kind of the ultimate in title inflation. In most countries law degrees are at the undergraduate level.
Kay
@Villago Delenda Est:
She could say “wait a minute- I set this up. I wanted an abortion and all she did was drive”
And religious fundamentalists would say “sorry- you’re not a ‘person’ in this law. You can’t be held accountable because you have no agency and in terms of this law don’t exist”.
Pregnancy, assistant, reporter. Pregnant woman is gone.
Chris
@lollipopguild:
To be fair, Russia has tried probably every governmental system known to man at this point and it always turns quickly into the same authoritarian and corruption-riddled shit-show.
There’s problems over there that run deeper than any government, let alone any person.
gene108
@Librarian:
The Duma of 1906 to 1917 was more of an advisory body. The Czar still wielded ultimate power. Nicholas II went to his grave, because he refused to share power and become a limited monarch, like the British monarchy, when pressure mounted in 1906.
gene108
@Librarian:
The Duma of 1906 to 1917 was more of an advisory body. The Czar still wielded ultimate power. Nicholas II went to his grave, because he refused to share power and become a limited monarch, like the British monarchy, when pressure mounted in 1906.
Chris
@trollhattan:
“Give me frogs! Locusts! Compared to you, the other plagues were a JOY!”
Steeplejack
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Thanks. I was interested to read more, so I guess I’ll have to subscribe to your newsletter.
Chris
@Kay:
TBF, I still remember the time my Bapitist-seminary-brain-addled cousin randomly posted on Facebook “so we ever manage to get abortion recognized as murder, what do you think the penalty for the woman should be?” To which all his friends’ response was “it’s murder, duh. Capital punishment.”
There are a lot of them who can’t wait to kill women over this.
Chris
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
The problem is, it’s really difficult to do something for purely cynical reasons without becoming a believer in it at some point.
zhena gogolia
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: rolex, please, that’s chump change for him
Baud
@Chris:
Agreed. Political considerations are the only thing holding them back.
zhena gogolia
@Chris: He doesn’t believe in anything.
NeenerNeener
@SFAW: I’m economically anxious, but not over gas prices. I haven’t had to put gas in my plug-in hybrid since last July, and I still have half a tank left. What this year’s changes to my health insurance are going to do to my copay assistance, though….that is giving me nightmares, because I’m on some expensive sh*t and without assistance my co-pays are in the thousands.
Geminid
@Calouste: As you say, that Ministry of Defence statement is interesting. Possibly it’s a sign that not everybody in Russia’s defense establishment is “all in” on this war.
LeeM
@trollhattan: How do they taste deep-fried?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I remembered a cross was involved in Putin’s early playing of Bush (“seduction”, this article calls it), but I could’ve sworn there was something about it being Putin’s mother’s cross. Anyway…
Chris
@gene108:
Interestingly, the fall of the Soviet Union really ended up mirroring the fall of the Czarists. Lots of Europe’s monarchies managed to survive, in some cases to this day, because they saw the writing on the wall and agreed to share power more and more; but the Czars mostly refused to, and as a result, ended up violently overthrown. Similarly, there are multiple communist regimes that have survived by learning to be flexible and reform their system (and it doesn’t even have to be in a democratic direction, I’m mostly thinking of China and Vietnam here); but the Soviets, again, basically refused to reform (their most famous reformer was allowed to change things for a few years, but the system got tired of it and tried to overthrow him, breaking itself in the process).
Sadly, Putin seems just as dedicated to staying in power come hell or high water.
Kelly
Uhh, Modi?
Barbara
@Kay: You are not a person but your fetus is.
Chris
@Geminid:
Could also be Putin deciding “okay, we’re not going to be able to hide the presence of draftees in this war, but I don’t want to be the one to break the news. I’d look like an asshole. I want you to look like an asshole so I don’t have to.”
Jeffro
@Villago Delenda Est:
@Kay:
they HAVE to set it up that way…leave the woman out of it completely…otherwise, it becomes apparent who/what they’re really going after: the woman’s right to make her own decisions about her body and health, ie, the woman.
“We’re going to harshly punish everyone involved with you getting an abortion” = “we are working to make it impossible for you to get a safe, legal abortion, but we know going after you personally won’t fly politically” = “we are fine with taking away your rights by making it impossible for you to exercise them”
Soprano2
@Kay: It’s like their total denial that under their own theory the woman seeking the abortion is a criminal. They know it’s not popular to criminalize the woman, so instead they say she’s an “innocent victim” of the abortion doctor. That’s nuts, if you believe abortion is murder isn’t the person getting the abortion committing murder? She’s seeking someone to “kill” her fetus! She’s like someone looking for a contract killer. They know it doesn’t make sense.
lowtechcyclist
@Gin & Tonic: Consider Israel. It’s a nation that exists to make sure it never again happens to the Jewish people. And they’re being really careful not to offend Russia here.
Josie
@Jeffro: Or:
SAVE OUR DEMOCRACY
EXPAND THE COURT
I do like your red, white & blue idea.
Ken
I just realized what was bothering me about this:
The last time we had a war, the President told us not to worry and to go shopping, and some of his staff reassured us the war would pay for itself. Why is the outlook so gloomy this time?
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
“According to Patriarch Kirill, who I do not support, this war against Ukrainian civilians is completely justified if it keeps gay parades from happening. Over the next 482 paragraphs of pseudotheological gobbledygook amalgamated from the feverish scribblings of Father Alexander Schmemann, Francis Schaeffer and three 15th century monks, I’ll describe why he’s right.”
– by Rod Dreher, probably
StringOnAStick
I just read that Tina Peters and her deputy, the two from Mesa County, CO that messed about with voting machines, gave data to Mike Lindel, were just indicted with 10 counts each by a Mesa County grand jury.
misterpuff
@rikyrah:
Border Checkpoints
“Build The Wall”
Ksmiami
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: I think we should reorganize it or stop supporting it. The UN can’t even say this is a war. It’s useless
Cacti
Yep.
Missouri is already trying to pass a state equivalent of the Fugitive Slave Act, for uppity wimmins who travel to a free state like next door Illinois for abortion services.
Captain C
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
“Patriarch Kirill, who I don’t necessarily agree with, is totally justified in being angry at gay parades, which are a sure sign that the West has succumbed to Neoliberalism and that Democrats are the worst, and a good reason to invade a sovereign nation which probably shouldn’t exist, anyway.”
–Glem, probably
Captain C
@Cacti: What happens when, say Illinois passes a law which states that anyone interfering with any legal medical procedure with an eye towards doing something like enforcing the Missouri law, is committing a felony with a penalty of up to 10+ years in state prison?
Cacti
@Captain C: Then the Opus Dei wing of SCOTUS sides with the religious authoritarians because freedom and reasons.
Cacti
@Chris:
This is why I look skeptically at the blanket assertion that the latest Russian invasion “is not the fault of the Russian people”.
We’re now about 450 years since The Enlightenment, and in that entire time, Russia has never had even a semblance of liberal democracy. They just swap between different flavors of authoritarian rule. A majority of them seem content with having a strong man daddy figure ruling them. Which makes me tend to think that this is most definitely their fault.
Gin & Tonic
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: It is the Russian Orthodox Church, not the Greek Orthodox. Please stop babbling about subjects you don’t know about.
delk
“Gay Pride Parades are evil” said the man in a dress and sparkly jewelry while he walked behind a group of men.
Gravenstone
Because Biden isn’t inclined to blow smoke up everyone’s ass just to avoid having people unhappy with him.
Ksmiami
@Cacti: they enable monsters ergo they themselves are monstrous as we’re Hitler’s good Germans.
Kelly
@StringOnAStick: What do you think of Jamie McLeod Skinner? I think she is a Better Democrat. I’ve been holding my nose and voting for Blue Dog Schrader for a looong time. 5th Congressional Dist has always had a lot lot of wingnuts so I’ve been reluctant to risk a primary challenger. He wins comfortably but I’m not sure there are any crossover Republican votes around here these days. He’s annoying as hell but when it matters he always votes with us. She beat Walden in Deschutes County which is now in the our district.
Cacti
@delk: When you look at it through an unbelieving eye, so much of religious ritual seems so childish.
“My deity finds me extra holy when I wear my frilly, gilded frock, and hold my special stick.”
Geminid
@Chris: Yeah, there could be many explainations for why the Ministry said this.
Tarragon
I’ve been saying that as “Russian worship, go fuck yourself.” But I’m sure we mean the same thing.
zhena gogolia
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Come on, don’t conflate Schmemann with Kirill!
HinTN
@Jeffro: I’m liking that! People what know, get it. People what don’t know, well I just don’t know what to think about them. Mama always said that if you can’t speak well of someone…
Jeffro
@Ken: maybe Biden should have been on a golf course and followed up his brief remark with a tee shot?
“We must stop
the terrorPutin. I call upon all nations to do everything they can to stopthese terrorist killersPutin. By the way, gas prices are going to go up, thanks to Putin” Then he continued: “Thank you, now watch this drive.”HinTN
@trollhattan:
Build that dome
Build that dome
Build that dome
catclub
@Kelly: Like Ben Franklin said: “A republic…. if you can keep it.”
Jeffro
@Josie: yes – I like the addition of ‘SAVE OUR DEMOCRACY’ or something similar. ‘PROTECT YOUR VOTE’? ‘SAVE DEMOCRACY’?
@HinTN: thanks! I like Josie’s suggestion. It needs a little something extra – the “why” part. And “UNDO DECADES OF THAT CORRUPT MF LEONARD LEO’S WORK: EXPAND THE COURT” is just too long. =)
StringOnAStick
@Kelly: I need to learn more about the local politics here. We have had 5 new families move into this neighbourhood since we did, and all are D’s plus one that left were R’s; I don’t know about the others. Bend is blue and my anecdotal evidence is it’s getting bluer, plus our friends in Redmond are telling us about a fired up D party there being very active. I know the rural areas are R, but the cities here are adding residents much faster than the rural areas so maybe we can take the risk on the non Schrader candidate?
cain
This is true i- and it’s separate from culture. Take Pakistan for instance, they’ve drunkenly moved from democracy to military rule and back. In this case, the military rule comes in to save the civilian govt from itself. Both countries (both sides!) suffer from high corruption. Of which, I blame the British – since just about everywhere they’ve been the govt have always been highly corrupt. I got no numbers to support this – but that’s my general observation trying to puzzle out why the fuck I turn into a Republican when I go to India. Seriously – “I’m from the govt” when I’m in India generally gets me to start screaming and running away haha :-)
catclub
Unfortunately people lie. They always care about gas prices.
cain
@brendancalling:
Gosh what does Ms Jenner think about all this??!
I don’t see how that can be constitutional to make it a felony to leave the state. Only the feds can make laws when it comes to inter-state commerce so to speak.
We are replacing the war on drugs with this vile nonsense.
Gin & Tonic
Mariupol. Maternity hospital. Look at the photo. Digest it.
rikyrah
@laura:
THANK YOU.
I was waiting for someone to reach back into American History and remind folks that this was done before.
cain
@catclub: Honestly, there is nothing wrong with that – gas prices means everything goes up – including groceries. If you’re on a fixed income and retired – that’s definitely a concern.
That said, we have a strong strain of entitlement that makes them all behave like they deserve to live this life of low gas prices, or that cultural norms should always transfer from one gen to the next. Meh.
rikyrah
@Kay:
so on point, Kay.
Kelly
@StringOnAStick: Bend area and a bit more of the Portland metro add mostly blue to the mix. Newly added Linn County is wingnutty as hell. The new 5th should trend to solid blue if it isn’t already. Jamie really got my attention winning the Bend area when it was in the 1st.
Gotta give Oregon Dems credit for a fairly subtle yet effective gerrymander ;-)
cain
@Baud:
Before or after the “freedom to vote act” in which you can only vote for the GOP ?
trollhattan
@Gin & Tonic: They are fucking monsters and this fate awaits whatever else falls under their advance.
cain
They got to come back at some point – they’ll probably just punish them by absconding with their property. Also expand the police state – blame everyone for forcing them to make govt big.
Dorothy A. Winsor
Isn’t freedom of movement between states guaranteed? Am I misinterpreting something?
Cacti
@Dorothy A. Winsor: You’re correct. And it’s also a fairly well established principle that the individual states can’t legislate or decree what is illegal to do in another, equally sovereign state.
They’d have to pass a federal version of the Fugitive Woman Act. Which, if they gained all of the political branches, I could absolutely see them doing.
Chris
@Cacti:
The other reason I’m harsher on them than I might otherwise be is the power of the country involved.
There are a lot of similarly dysfunctional and autocratic countries in the third world, but a lot of these countries also have a history of being ruled or severely undermined by much stronger foreign powers. I don’t wonder why Afghanistan, for example, is still a such a mess after decades of Russian and American occupation and Saudi and Pakistani undermining. Not everything wrong with that place is the fault of foreigners by any means, but put it like this, if your average developed country had suffered from everything foreigners have put Afghanistan through, I don’t think it would look that different. Ditto all those recently decolonized Central Asian countries that are still to various degrees under Russia’s thumb (with China pushing in now as well); all those Central American and Caribbean countries with the history of CIA and UFC rule; all those African countries that still have the Francafrique networks to deal with; Oman, we recently found out, still has an unofficial privy council of British big shots…
But Russia isn’t a vulnerable and exploited third world country. It’s a nuclear weapons state, it’s armed to the teeth, its geography makes it basically impregnable even without the nukes, it’s one of if not the richest country in the world in terms of raw resources, there’s nothing inherently wrong with its intellectual/scientific capabilities (it is, after all, the country that invented space travel)… And while it has suffered invasions in the past (though the last one was three generations ago), those tend to end in disaster for the invaders: Russia hasn’t been ruled by foreigners, either officially or unofficially, since the time of the Mongols.
What the hell is their excuse for the fact that with all that power and all that independence, they still look like a CIA-stamped military dictatorship/cocaine republic from the depths of the eighties?
Roger Moore
@Kattails:
Liquid helium, baby!
zhena gogolia
@Chris: The population is in fact vulnerable and exploited. And the US did a lot of the exploiting in the 1990s.
We’re all so smug sitting here. Makes me sick.
laura
@Kay: the pregnant person is a vessel and the State’s interest will be on the full legal personhood of the gestational person. The beauty of it all is the immediate lack of State’s interest when the gestational person is born. But you knew that already?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Can/will the UAE act unilaterally? Or is this purely a “we encourage our partners to consider the possibility of…”?
Gin & Tonic
@zhena gogolia: You know what makes me sick? Dropping a 1,000 pound bomb on a maternity hospital in a city with no heat, electricity, water or food.
Uncle Cosmo
@Cacti: FFS, the Opus Dei wing of SCOTUS ARE the religious authoritarians!
(In other news from 1950s Europe, “Christian Democratic Party” = “Catholic Falange”.)
Roger Moore
@gene108:
I think the main reason is the demand for a 100% perfect solution. See, it’s not enough for masks, vaccines, or what have you to greatly reduce your chance of getting sick. Any solution that doesn’t let us go back to life just as it was in February 2020 is worthless. Actually, it’s worse than worthless, because it costs us our precious freedom.
Geminid
@StringOnAStick: How did Schrader do compared to Biden last cycle? That figure is out there, and someone has probably done an analysis on how your new district would have voted for Joe Biden. I’ve seen that done with Virginia’s new districts.
A good Democratic candidate should do as well as Biden even if they’re not Schrader. That may not be the case if the Republicans nominate a centrist, but I bet they won’t.
trollhattan
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Not to worry, they’re totally reliable and have our backs.
zhena gogolia
@Gin & Tonic: I am fully aware of your position. My statement was not intended to approve of the actions of Putin and his military.
GoBlueInOak
Meanwhile South Korea is having its Presidential election today and it’s a dead heat.
The conservative candidate wants:
– Abolish minimum wage
– Abolish the 52-hour Korean workweek and increase to 120 hours
– Abolish food safety rules so that they poor can “choose” to eat substandard food
– Wants the US to station tactical nukes in South Korea
zhena gogolia
I think I’m going to have to give up this place. Sorry, I’ll miss it.
Chris
@zhena gogolia:
Sorry. There’s no comparison between 1990s Russia and UFC-run Guatemala. 1990s Russia was exploited first and foremost by Russians. None of the oligarchs who became big in this era and basically ran the country were Westerners, or under their thumb.
trollhattan
@GoBlueInOak:
A curveball I heard was young female Koreans voted en masse for a third-party candidate. And it is super close between the top two, couple tenths of a percent last I heard (a few hours ago).
laura
@rikyrah: Rikyrah, I almost always think of you when I let my potty mouth spill, because you always avoid foul language and blasphemy and so I hold you in particular high regard as a valued commenter. I so very much appreciate the hat tip. Apartheid America? Not on my fucking watch.
zhena gogolia
@Chris: You don’t know what you’re talking about. But that’s par for the course around here.
We aren’t supposed to hold groups accountable for the actions of their governments or of the worst people among them. Unless they’re Russians.
Kelly
@Geminid: Interesting. According to Ballotpedia Biden did 1.7% better than Schrader in the 5th district as it was.
mrmoshpotato
BC in Illinois
It’s worse than you can imagine. Missouri Senate Bill 1202,
Add your own emphasis, and note the sections [2? 3? 4? 7?] that are absolutely unenforceable.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
What percentage of USians supported the invasion of Iraq? and specifically because Saddam did 9/11? My recollection is more than two-thirds, depending how the question was framed
StringOnAStick
@Kelly: I thought their gerrymander was masterful, and the fact that the R’s gave up fighting it shows it was a reasonable gerrymander that followed the rules; best kind!
Chris
@zhena gogolia:
Please, name the American or otherwise foreign oligarchs who ruled Russia in the 1990s. Or, you know, the equivalents of UFC or whoever. Or, in fact, any American who had any power over the Russian economy and government in the same ballpark as the Russian oligarchs of the era. By all means educate me.
trollhattan
@BC in Illinois:
Justice Coathanger, once this hits SCOTUS: “Let’s see, yep checks out. Uphold!”
scav
@BC in Illinois: Wonder how many of those fetal residential conditions they would deny have any validity if used in determining the U.S. citizenship of exact same fetus.
StringOnAStick
@Geminid: I bet Kelly knows that data; he’s been here a lot longer!
Seriously, the wing nuts around here are truly nutty. When Rittenhouse was acquitted, they drove their souped up, loud giant pickups up and down the highway until the early morning hours. We never hear traffic from our house, but we definitely heard that. I can guarantee that the person the R’s choose to run for this seat will be a raving nutjob.
Matt McIrvin
@ArchTeryx: kind of like the way herrenvolk “democracy” overlying a racial caste system is the curse of US culture. Pushing against it is very hard and the work of centuries.
But these things do happen, I suppose. France had an antimonarchic revolution and they got to a more or less stable democratic republic only about 80 years later. (And then had 70 years until the Nazis invaded.)
scav
Show Me Your Pregnancy Status Papers stations at every border crossing into MO, coming and going. Vaccination status, of course, is a bridge too far! Idaho’s stations will meanwhile be feeling up the genitals of all children entering or leaving the state to see if their clothing choices are approved.
Kelly
Well I don’t about centerists but according to Ballotpedia all the 5th Dist Republican candidates are political nobodies. None has ever held any elected office.
Jinchi
Putin is a defender specifically of the Russian Orthodox faith. He doesn’t believe in freedom of religion in general, not even for other Christian denominations. That binds the church and Putin together in common interest. Historically, this is a pretty typical use of religious influence by politicians.
In popular thought the church defines what morality is. Putin defines what counts as a legitimate religion.
So you were right. Putin is being entirely cynical, here.
Kelly
Greater Idaho.
O. Felix Culpa
@trollhattan:
Bastards.
Gin & Tonic
So the bombing of the maternity hospital was intentional.
topclimber
@Chris: Through agencies like the World Bank and Western financial clout, America had lots of influence on how the post-Soviet world evolved. Shock therapy and an ideological insistence on the quick dissolution of state enterprises helped create the conditions for Russia’s kleptocracy.
Gin & Tonic
@Jinchi: So is the Russian Orthodox Church.
Geminid
@Kelly: Then it does not sound like Schrader is indipensable electorally. The Democrats should be able to field a good alternative. Although I would be wary of any Justice Democrats/Brand New Congress candidate.
There are a lot of complaints about Schrader the Blue Dog, but he still might win a Democratic primary. The leading candidate in my new congressional district, the Virginia 7th, is in the Blue Dog Caucus. I think that if I took a typical 7th District Democratic voter aside and said, “Did you know that Abigail Spanberger is a Blue Dog?” they’d answer, “Blue Dog…what’s that?”
O. Felix Culpa
@Gin & Tonic: Can you clarify, was the hospital evacuated before bombing?
ETA: Which, even if true, doesn’t make them any less bastards.
Gin & Tonic
@O. Felix Culpa: No, it was not.
O. Felix Culpa
@Gin & Tonic: Bastards.
Thanks for the clarification. The language/order of events in the tweet was unclear.
NotMax
@O. Felix Culpa
“Is headquarters for infantry, da?”
//
Gin & Tonic
@O. Felix Culpa: The city is under siege. Roads that could be used for exit are mined. There is no heat, no electricity, almost no communications, no water and no food. Nobody can get in or out.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@zhena gogolia:
My thing is this – lots of awfulness took a sneaky step into Orthodoxy via converts into the OCA, and Dreher positively reeks with the unctuous sanctimony that I associate with the brand.
We Antiochians were doing just fine living, squabbling and sinning with our gambling, drinking, flings and whatnot, happy in knowing “the last shall be first” and having kickass weddings, picnics, dances and celebrations, and then things got weird. Next thing you know, people who moved into the area from places with OCA parishes were disapproving of the sinning, and convert priests and bishops started shutting the fun stuff down while insisting that Lent needed to be a lot more miserable.
We Antiochians (and I still identify that way) barely managed to escape that era.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
The argument is in Russian history is when a Russian leader blinks, the princelings call him a wuss and overthrow him, so this why Putin won’t de-escalate with this war. So I would think that makes the sanctions all the more important; force the princelings to blink first and beg Putin to de-escalate so they are the ones wussed out.
Maybe part of Putin’s thinking is to deliberty wreck the Russian army, since that would be only force in Russia capable of challenging Putin’s own personal security force in the post conflict blamestorming.
Sort of like Games of Thrones, but without the fun sized advisors.
Kelly
@Geminid: Biden beat Trump 65k to 55k, slightly over 10% edge in newly added Deschutes County which is mostly Bend. That’s a comfortable win.
Zelma
@zhena gogolia:
Please don’t go. There is so much ignorance about Russian history even among well educated people.
Another Scott
@topclimber: OTOH, the entire economy had collapsed. Ways needed to be found to get it going again reasonably quickly.
Life is complicated, especially when the whole political and economic system is in shambles.
We also shouldn’t think that only the West had agency.
Russia not collapsing into a national civil war was a good result.
My $0.02, FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
O. Felix Culpa
@Gin & Tonic: No words. Makes me weep with rage.
catclub
The tweet was a total lie from Russian spokesperson. Don’t expect any of it to be right.
SamIAm
I’m a bit confused by the assertion that the Polish MiGs would have to fly out of a NATO airfield and that doing so would constitute an escalation for several reasons.
1. The planes can be shipped by train or semi rather than flown. Yes, that means time spent disassembling and reassembling the planes. At least for semi truck transport. I don’t think it would be necessary for train transport.
2. Correct me of I’m wrong but the Javelins and Stingers are being flown in from airfields in NATO countries. So that bridge has already been crossed. So far, no nukes. And Putin has already said countries imposing sanctions would be treated as having declared war against Russia. Again, no nukes.
3. It’s been claimed that Putin (probably) won’t use tactical nukes because his generals wouldn’t obey for fear of escalation to global nuclear war. Wouldn’t they also not obey should Putin order nuclear strikes in retaliation for NATO supplying these planes?
4. Finally, any ‘red lines’ Putin has are completely arbitrary. Tomorrow he may say supplying Ukraine with ANY weapons will result in a nuclear strike. So why is NATO acting as if the status quo is sustainable? Especially as spring rains bring Russian military and supply lines to a grinding halt. As that happens Putin is going to become more and more desperate for a quick victory.
catclub
Priority #1,2, 3, and 4 was making sure their nukes were secured.
Anything else good was lagniappe.
Kristine
@Barbara: @Kay: Vessels. Incubators. Nothing more.
tybee
@trollhattan:
doesn’t sound any larger or more dangerous than the banana spiders and garden spiders that have been around here since the ice age ended…
Chris
@topclimber:
Shock therapy privatization mostly just meant that previously state-owned enterprises or the resources thereof were sold off to… the people with the inside connections to steer the process in their direction.
In other words, it meant the people already at the top got to stay there. Which is why it found so many happy converts in Moscow: the people in charge were happy to listen to Western economists when they told them what they wanted to hear, ignore them when they didn’t, and point at them when there was any blame to be assigned.
Roger Moore
@scav:
All of them, Katie.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Jinchi: Russian Orthodox is 41% of the pop, with 47% of pop other beliefs and I wouldn’t be to surprised of their there is a spectrum in that 41% of those who take the Klepto-Theocrats that seriously.
Why do I get the feeling it’s 27% of the Russian population does whatever the Russian Orthodox Patriarch says?
topclimber
@Another Scott:
No disagreement here, since I have never believed that only the West has agency. Only that sometimes it has the most, and often has a lot.
JoyceH
@catclub:
I recently read a Franklin bio, and know what? He privately didn’t believe that we COULD keep it. He figured the USA as a Republic was good for maybe a generation but would eventually devolve into some sort of autocracy or oligarchy. So at least we beat Franklin’s estimate. Let’s try to keep on keeping it.
Kay
@Kristine:
I say this as someone who lives in a red state- women who intend to keep a full set of adult rights should genuinely, seriously, consider getting out of Missouri.
When one of the drafters of this law was asked if it was constitutional she pointed to the Texas law as proof that the US Supreme Court will no longer be enforcing laws they have religious objections to- she’s right. That’s exactly what happened.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@zhena gogolia: Say, do you know about the pie function in this forum?
Chris
@topclimber:
Yeah, but here’s my thing: a lot of countries formerly under Soviet control went through a transition to capitalism at this stage, many of whom are now NATO and/or EU members. Those countries were far smaller and weaker than Russia. They were also, due to the NATO/EU admission process, even more directly exposed to the West’s “agency” than Russia ever could be. And yet many of these countries are now doing better both economically and in the good governance/democracy spheres than their former patron.
So it’s very difficult to conclude that Western influence was the determining factor in how Russia’s turned out.
topclimber
@Chris: A good argument if anyone is saying it was the determinative factor. You seem to think it played an insignificant role.
O. Felix Culpa
I’m off to help provide transportation for an Afghan refugee family that is being resettled in town. There is just too much grief and dislocation in the world caused by hardhearted men.
OGLiberal
@Cacti: I’ve heard a few calls from folks saying not to blame the Russian people for Putin’s sins because they’ve just been fed a steady stream of propaganda for years and really believe the the Ukrainian government – with a Jewish president – are Nazis and that Putin is freeing the people from those Nazis and destroying US-backed bio-weapons labs. But then I see idiots there wearing Z t-shirts and I think, “How are they that much different than the Q loons here and why should I forgive them and not the Q folks?” I mean, the defeat the Nazis/get rid of the US bio-labs sounds like it’s directly out of the Q handbook. (in fact, it pretty much is) Yeah, I know, it’s a bit more of a closed society. But a lot of that closure only just started – these folks should know better. But they don’t want to know better because just like the Q loons the lies make them feel better about their grievances and perceived loss of standing in the world. And they love that daddy is doing stuff and getting mad to help them feel better.
I’m sure there are plenty of good Russians but there’s also likely a percentage of the population there – maybe the same size as the Trumpers here, maybe larger – who loves them some Putin.
West of the Rockies
@zhena gogolia:
I hope you’ll stay. This may be a weak, snowflake analogy, but sometimes I get tired of the stupid, vile, untalented white guy invective so prevalent today. It unfortunately applies to tens of millions of us. Those of us (there are plenty) who are not mouth-breathing misogynistic, racist, homophobic idiots have to soak it up and push back only when the invective gets too bad. No group is monolithic.
You bring humor and humanity to this place. You are appreciated.
jackmac
@ArchTeryx:
Sorry. Quite late to this, but the difference between Vetinari and Putin is that society and commerce in Ankh-Morpork ran — maybe inefficiently — and the Patrician kept factions competing with each other and not conspiring to oust him. Putin is a strongman (for now) with a bullet with his name on it waiting to reach its target.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
If I recall correct that was because the Glibertarians showed up in Moscow and filled the Russian leadership ears with their bullshit about free markets solve all, government is the problem not the solutions and so on. It was quite the scandal at the time. It sort feels like the Russian elite rather listened to the Glibertarians all to well and didn’t run away screaming from it like sane people do with the mess Russia is in now were everything is a profit center.
PJ
@Chris: Almost all of the former Warsaw Pact countries you are talking about (with the exception of Albania, probably) had some experience with the rule of law and market economies prior to WWII, and were way ahead of the Soviet Union in pretty much every area prior to being incorporated into the Eastern Bloc – in literacy, technology, industry, you name it. And most of them continued to be ahead of the Soviet Union throughout the next 40 years. The Soviet Empire was one example where the imperialist state was underdeveloped compared to its client states, and the only way it kept them in check was through its massive army.
So while it is true that being included in Western institutions helped keep EU members and EU hopefuls more in line with good governance and a healthy democracy (though all of them, with the possible exception of East Germany, have had to deal with the biggest hangover from Communism – massive, corrosive corruption), they all had a huge head start over the states of the FSU (with the exception of the Baltics, who had 20 years of independence between the wars).
Captain C
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
The Glibertarians told them they could have it all with no responsibility, and those grabbing up everything they could get their grubby paws on liked what they were hearing, as it gave (weak sauce) philosophical justification to their larceny.
trollhattan
Can’t count on covid, can’t count on hamberders, can’t count on broken aircraft over open water, what’s it gonna take?!?
West of the Rockies
@PJ:
Those countries also did not have one of history’s most wretched figures (stumpy, lumpy Putin) with years of KGB experience leaping in to take over.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@trollhattan: and a voice from the clouds was heard to bellow, “Dammit! Missed again!”
Chris
@PJ:
Absolutely to all of that…
… which brings us right back to how much of the outcome is baked into local conditions, rather than anything foreigners did to help or wreck the place.
trollhattan
TBH I was unaware this didn’t already happen, but anyway, good!
PJ
@Chris: Russia, to my knowledge, has had only minimal experience with the rule of law at the upper levels of government and power, which lack of justice tends to affect all areas of governance. I think this is the key reason why Russia looks the way it does.
The US and Europe could have initiated a massive Marshall Plan for the Warsaw Pact and FSU countries which might have gone some way towards establishing the rule of law and a more just society, but we were too selfish and busy chanting “We’re #1!” to do it. Instead, we sent them U of Chicago economists and Harvard masterminds like Jeff Sachs who advocated for immediate privatization of all state-owned businesses and properties and an immediate push to a full market economy. This was for countries which had not experienced the rule of law in decades, did not have private property or securities or antitrust or anti-corruption laws until the day before the transition (or until well after), whose governments were still full of apparatchiks, and where the only people who knew what was worth anything in the state industries were the Communist nomenklatura. So it’s no surprise that what followed was a bloodletting where the most unscrupulous and corrupt wound up with everything, and the average person wound up with close to nothing, and, in the case of senior citizens, in many ways were worse off than they had been under Communism, which at least guaranteed a home, food, and health care.
Cacti
@OGLiberal: The most disingenuous criticism is the refrain of “This is NATO’s fault”.
Those pedaling that particular fantasy are basically saying that it was mean of NATO to support Ukrainian self-determination, because it made Russia’s national pee pee feel small.
Ken
@Captain C: In fairness, that was years before the example of Grafton, New Hampshire showed that libertarian government results in people being attacked by bears.
Although it could also be said that Grafton was years after the example of Russia showed that libertarian government results in people being exploited by criminal gangs.
Baud
@Cacti: Yes, I agree.
It’s almost sad when the facts on the ground don’t fit people’s heart-felt ideology.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: That was Melania.
TKH
@Kay: I have to say I admire your ability to cut through the crap on just about any topic with just a few sentences. I had thoughts along those lines rolling around in my noggin, but it would have taken me forever to distill them down to the essence the way you did. Chapeau!
karen marie
@scav: Idaho is – according to news reports – “the fastest-growing state.” Those glorious headlines fail to tell you that Idaho’s entire population is smaller than California’s population GROWTH over the last ten years.
I’m going to guess that “growth” in Idaho is going to not only stop but reverse if the GOP passes that legislation.
Geeno
@Gin & Tonic: Technically, they’re both part of the Eastern Orthodox Church under the Patriarch of Constantinople in Istanbul.
NotMax
@karen marie
“My Own Privates, Idaho!”
//
Gin & Tonic
@PJ: Then explain Ukraine.
Gin & Tonic
@Geeno: I know that.
cain
@OGLiberal: I saw an article about Ukrainian talking to their family in Russia and those family refusing to believe that Russia is attacking civilians.
Geminid
@trollhattan: They say Trump touched that engine before he boarded the plane. Then it died.
bjacques
Discussion over the West’s indirect role in the rise of Putin raises the question of how to deal with the peace if Putin falls. The WWI allies lost no time in supporting the Whites during Russia’s Civil War, and a people whose whole system crumbled almost overnight were greeted with Washington Consensus bankers and apparatchiks flying in to pick over the corpse. So, if Ukraine and the West prevail, ordinary Russians will be shocked after being assured of total victory, much like Imperial Germans were in 1918. If Western reaction to that is BOOYAH!! it will be yet another lost opportunity to connect to a wounded people. At the very least, Russians deserve our good faith.
And, yeah, it’s pretty rich to dunk on Russia’s track record of horrible leaders from a country that freely elected turds like Trump, Bush, and Wilson (to name a few).
Kristine
@Kay: I have such a difficult time accepting the fact that there are women who will do this to other women. I know why they do it. I understand the facts. But acceptance? No.
Ruckus
@brendancalling:
These people are psychotic.
And that’s the nicest thing that can be said about them.
matryoshka
@Kay: Where should we Missouri women go? I agree, but I have been spinning my wheels here for a while because living in Chicago was just too expensive, and in many ways, much more difficult. Everywhere I have looked so far, there are wingnuts just like the ones here.
Ruckus
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
I’ve never seen a lawyer do that before.
I have. Not often BTW but still, I’ve seen it.
Also room temp IQ? 66 is pretty low. Sure it’s higher than SFB but still, pretty low.
WaterGirl
@Gin & Tonic: Putin is literally a monster.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Captain C: Yes, and they listened because it was they dreamed about and there was a lot of doublespeak under the Soviet Union about keeping things going with the blackmarket.
But that’s the thing; it was Putin’s job to say no. I also remember reading Yetslin selecting Putin has his successor because Putin had a reputation for ruthlessness and Yeltsin thought that was needed to fix Russia’s problems.
Cacti
@matryoshka: You can live in the St. Louis area on the opposite side of the river. Belleville and O’Fallon are both nice towns.
PJ
@Gin & Tonic: You know far more about the history of Ukraine than I. But if yours is not a rhetorical question, and you really want me to display my poorly informed opinions, here goes:
For a while there, it looked as if Ukraine might go the way of Belarus and Russia, with some kind of strongman/puppet and a “managed democracy” that would always be pro-Putin. But, as you know, Ukrainians rose up and rejected that vision in the Euromaidan protests. These Ukrainians very much wanted to be closer to Europe (even a member of the EU), and not under the thumb of Moscow. Why is that? Part of it surely has to do with nascent Ukrainian nationalism in the 19th Century, Russian treatment of the breakaway Ukraine following the Bolshevik Revolution, collectivization under the Bolsheviks, and, obviously not least, the Holodomor. Given that, and given how Russia turned out under Putin, it’s not surprising that most Ukrainians would rather turn to the rest of Europe for a role model. It also seems to me that, with EU members on the western borders of Ukraine, Ukrainians would have the opportunity to travel and see how things are better there than in Putin’s kleptocracy, and this would have some influence.
Again, you would no more than I about this, but, as you know, the western part of what is now Ukraine used to be part of the Austrian Empire, and while it was no walk in the park for non-German minorities for a lot of its history, it did feature the rule of law, as did its successor states in Poland and Czechoslovakia, and I wonder if this had an effect on the post-USSR development of Ukraine.
NotMax
@PJ
Village where Mom was born has flown the flag of Austria-Hungary (before her time, but not that of her parents), then Poland, then USSR, now Ukraine.
Concomitant name changes for the village, also too.
Miss Bianca
@StringOnAStick: I wonder if this means she’ll withdraw from running for CO Secretary of State. (oh, who am I kidding? Since when has a little criminal activity stopped a modern Republican?)
bjacques
@NotMax: my girlfriend’s parents were from Stanisławaw, now Ivano-Frankivsk.
Captain C
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
That may have been a factor, but IIRC the main thing was that Putin agreed not to ever prosecute Yeltsin or his family members for their ill-gotten gains (I think it even got put into law, somehow). He (Yeltsin) couldn’t get that promise out of Primakov or any of the other possibilities.
Kay
@matryoshka:
Illinois? Michigan is where I’m going if it gets bad here. Well, worse :)
I only have one daughter and she’s in NY so I feel she’s safe there. By “safe” I mean will be left alone by these people.
Kay
@matryoshka:
I think about this more than I used to. I have a little property in Michigan- not why I have it – I didn’t buy it like “oh, I might have to flee to Michigan!” but I think about that- how I could go there if need be.