Ukraine is Defending Europe and the World.”
That’s what it says in President Zelenskyy’s banner on twitter, and it’s the absolute truth.
I haven’t seen much discussion of President Zelensky’s proposal for a new world organization called U-24. It seemed like a good idea to me.
We already became part of the anti-war coalition, a big anti-war coalition that unites many countries, dozens of countries, those who reacted in principle to President Putin’s decision to invade our country, but we need to move on and do more. We need to create new tools to respond quickly and stop the war, the full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine, which began on February 24th. And it would be fair if it ended in a day, that in 24 hours, that evil would be punished immediately. Today the world does not have such tools. The war of the past have prompted our predecessors to create institutions that should protect us from war, but they unfortunately don’t work. We see it, you see it, so we need new ones, new institutions, new alliances and we offer them.
We propose to create an association U-24 united for peace, a union of responsible countries that have the strength and consciousness to stop conflicts immediately, provide all the necessary assistance in 24 hours, if necessary, even weapons if necessary, sanctions, humanitarian support, political support, finances, everything you need to keep the peace and quickly save the world, save lives.
In addition, such association, such union would provide assistance to those who are experiencing natural disasters, man-made disasters, who fell victims to humanitarian crisis or epidemic. Remember how difficult it was for the world to do the simplest things, just to give vaccines, vaccines against Covid to save lives, to prevent new strains. The world spent months, years doing things like that much faster, to make sure there are no human losses, no victims.
Ladies and gentlemen, Americans, if such alliance would exist today, that is U-24, we would be able to save thousands of lives in our country. In many countries of the world, those who need peace, those who suffer inhumane destruction. I ask you to watch one video, video of what the Russian troops did in our country, in our land. We have to stop it. We must prevent it, preventably destroy every single aggressor who seeks to subjugate other nations.
If a country like Ukraine can likely never actually get into NATO – because one of the prerequisites is no border disputes with neighbors, and Russia can make sure that never happens – then we need new organizations with new rules.
What did you think of President Zelenskyy’s U-24 proposal? Have you seen it discussed anywhere? Maybe everyone forgot about it because the video followed immediately after that proposal?
Also, in case you missed it on Friday evening, one of our commenters, Carlo Graziani shared a really great essay on Ukraine and Russia as a guest post.
Gin & Tonic shared this short but excellent video with us in another thread.
“we will win.
there will be new cities.
there will be new dreams.
there will be a new story.
and those we've lost will be remembered.
yes, ukraine was beautiful.
but now it will become great“@ZelenskyyUa’s moving letter to the world pic.twitter.com/YqKLREi1jF
— maksym.eristavi ???️? (@MaximEristavi) March 20, 2022
The Balloon Juice for Ukraine thermometer is back up at the top of the site.
The U.S. would need to be much more politically stable before we could participate in any such thing.
@Baud: What is your thinking behind that?
I’d be more interested at this moment to remove Russian from the Security Council and ban them entirely from the U.N. until they cease this bullshit and change their ways. It doesn’t matter that Russia’s a charter member; what matters is that Russia has violated any number of international laws and is no longer deserving of membership in any human community.
Alison Rose ???
The video left me almost breathless and in tears.
The Republicans already hate the UN. They would hate the U-24 even more. We can’t be confident that they won’t be in control after 2025.
@debbie: And I’ve read that how Russia took the USSR’s place on the security council could be challenged.
Then it needs to be. Yesterday.
Ukrainian Training Film – Stinger MANPADS
@Baud: Good point. I remember that letter a number of Rethugs sent to Iran about the pending JCPOA, warning that Iran doesn’t know who will be in charge next.
I would love to see that happen. You violate all the rules, they boot you out. End of story.
From the BBC: Olga Misik: Russia’s ‘Tiananmen teen’ protester on front line.
@debbie: Agree. I hope some world-class attorneys are looking into it, and things are taking place behind the scenes.
@debbie: The Ukraine ambassador to the UN brought that up before the UN weeks ago, but as far as I know it hasn’t gone anywhere.
edit: We can always hope it is gaining traction behind the scenes.
Parents enforce consequences on their children; this is no different.
Cute picture, but not for a libertarian message.
@debbie: Brave girl.
@debbie: What an impressive young woman.
Will the world be more stable if we don’t create such a thing?
We have grown to the point that killing large numbers of people for one mans ego and idiotic “ideals” is finally seen as not a good thing. We need to move on to the next level and that is not just a few nations gathered together that will fight for themselves but if not all of the world then at least a majority of it. Many countries are not big enough to really protect themselves against much larger ones that desire to steal more land and humans.
This concept is not new of course but the time is ripe and better for this than before. We need to not be in a war every successive generation. We survive better if we work together rather than against one another. There will likely always be villains and despots but they need to be at least controlled and contained.
The only reason we can’t do this is because no one has asked for it before, but now a comedian turned very impressive national leader is asking for it. It’s time, it’s necessary, it’s right.
It seems like it’s taken a lot of behind the scenes work to keep NATO united with this conflict, and that only happened because Biden happened to be president at this time. Y mind can’t process what it would take to create a permanent institutionaize of 24 countries to do something like this on a more worldwide basis.
Watergirl, is there a link to Zelenskyy’s U-24 speech?
@Ruckus: It’s going to be a heavy lift to do anything like this. It means asking the citizens of every nation willing to join such an organization to being willing to sacrifice on behalf of other people, many of whom won’t look like them.
There won’t be overwhelming public support for this when it comes to playing the tape all the way through. We already have a lot of push back on our meager foreign aid as it stands in the US, and without the US something like this can’t succeed. Imagine what happens when soldiers start dying or large amounts of funds need to be transferred to deal with some distant crisis. Even if we hold a majority capable of getting it started it’ll be a constant line of attack by the right.
And this lack of cooperation is going to kill us all; if we can’t get something of this scale going on climate change very very soon we’re really screwed, but I don’t see an easy way through that. We have failed as a global community to do this for COVID, and we’re all paying the consequences of that. I’m not sure what it’s going to take for us to get our act together, but we’re running out of time.
@Baud: I don’t think the 24 in U-24 is a limit on the number of members. I think it’s referring to getting help to countries in need within 24 hours.
Gotcha. Usually the number represents the number of nations.
@debbie: agreed. Russia needs to be cauterized and denuclearized as the current country is a terrorist menace to civilization. That is the first goal
@Ruckus: I welcome our robot overlords
Could something like U-24 be done through the UN? I like the idea but do we need another organization?
@sukabi: The U-24 proposal was part of his presentation to congress.
Regarding that mysterious letter Z which appears on Russian tanks and the chests of Russian gymnasts and other odd places and is supposed to represent Russian resolve…
How about if it was hijacked by pro-Ukraine forces and came to represent the Z in Zelensky? Could social media types make that work?
Adam L Silverman
I think what you’re going to see is a push to create a collective security and response treaty organization with Ukraine, the Baltic states, and most likely Poland. I’ve seen this suggested by Ukrainians over the past week or so. This is in addition to what I wrote several days ago, that what I’m seeing from Ukrainians is not just frustration, but anger that NATO won’t help them fight Russia by sending troops, but if Russia should stray an inch over the Ukrainian border into a NATO country, then NATO will fight. Even if Ukraine becomes eligible to joint NATO, I don’t think it will happen. I think NATO, which I’ve been a big defender of, is demonstrating itself to be largely useless right now. And I think that is both a sad and a bad thing.
Sometimes, you have to try to laugh, when things are really awful:
(From the Donny Horror Show)
I’ve got something to say.
I’m really proud of the slimy way
You tricked the ‘Murcans
To do things my way.
What you most crave is money, Donny,
I know that your “business” is funny, Donny,
So please don’t pretend to shun me, Donny,
I’ve one thing to say, and that’s
I own you.
The ramp was long, but you ran it, Donny,
If there’s one tsar who owns you, I am it, Donny.
I’ve one thing to say and that’s
Dammit, Donny, I own you.
Here’s e-mails to prove that I’m no joker,
There’s three ways that proof can show
You’re bad, worse, not just mediocre,
Oh! D-O-N-N-Y I own you so!
Oh, it’s more dirt than Johnson, Bo-Reece had, Oh Vlad,
Now I’m ensnared, and I’m so glad, Oh Vlad,
That you’ve made Mitch and Kev do bad, Oh Vlad,
I’ve one thing to say, and that’s
Vlad, I so bow to you,
Now Obey me, I’m mad oh Donny, for you,
I own you too.
There’s one thing left to do, hoo-hoo,
And that’s go thank the man who has spun thee, Donny,
When he promoted your lust for the money, Donny,
In his tabloid with memes that are Foxy, Donny,
There’s one thing to say, and that’s
Don’t defy me, Donny, I own you.
Down boy, Donny.
Beg me, Donny.
We’re bros, we two.
Yes it will be a heavy lift. It will aways be a heavy lift to get people to actually live together peacefully. Some people are fucking greedy, they need to prove that they are something, something better than others. The need a bigger house than you, a minimum 20,000 sq ft yard to keep you away from them because of your cooties (a fictitious childhood thing) which is not surprising all things considered. Search for vlad’s Black Sea house if you wonder what opulent shit looks like.
The point is that there are too many of us to survive the old ways, the war every 20 yrs to capture land or people that doesn’t belong to them, just for someone’s fucking ego. And yes we have the same problem here in our democracy. Hell our last president was the spokesperson for the ass attempting to destroy Ukraine. What a delightful concept and time that was.
We have to do better. We have to move forward, backwards is not an option. We need the vehicle to help us move forward and the comedian/president of Ukraine is showing us the way. We’d be fools not to see it. And bigger fools not to believe it. Sure we may be OK – maybe. But that is because we spend a lot of money and lives to insure that, and it isn’t often enough. Would it maybe be possible that we had a way to make this work better? Or work at all? Someone with a voice has spoken up, I think it’s time to listen, learn and move forward.
Much as I like the idea of U-24 in theory, I’m not idealistic enough to think that it could ever actually work.
It is basically an alliance of countries that would agree to escalate any conflict anywhere in the world into a full-blown international conventional conflict within 24 hours. Such an idea might be appealing in the abstract. But think about the reality of the globe.
In addition to Ukraine, we currently have military conflicts going on in Ethiopia, Sudan, Myanmar, Syria, Israel/Gaza/West Bank, Iraq, Chad, Western Sahara, Kurdistan, Nigeria, Somalia, Armenia, Burkina Faso, etc. etc. etc. etc. Is this band of U-24 countries going to military airlift overwhelming conventional forces into any or all of these conflicts in order to enforce peace?
@Adam L Silverman: Agree NATO needs to be more than about defending lines on the ground. The world is so connected in so many other ways that need defending!
Meanwhile, as brands flee Russia, I bring everyone a gift of this epic Wendy’s commercial from 1985.
@Adam L Silverman:
Why are you leaving out Western Europe? Is it that you don’t think they’d ever actually fight Russia?
Good god, I remember that commercial! ?
I don’t see that the u24 is anything better than nato. And we don’t boot anyone out of the UN because talking has to happen even with really bad governments or else they can never end the mistakes they have started.
The real problem is nuclear weapons. There is no simple solution to that nor can any organization or treaty solve it for long. Every fix is going to depend on the world leaders in power at the time of each crisis, and those will keep happening. So it’s always important to elect good smart leaders in every country. There will be future crisis’ that are different than this one and we will have to deal with those then.
I think Russia needs to come off the security council. They aren’t USSR.
other NATO countries need more money spent on defense. They have been depending too much on us.
I had been taught the justification of Chamberlains appeasement is England and the rest of Europe were not ready to fight Hitler then, that they would have lost fighting then. I don’t know how true that is, but Europe doesn’t have what we take for granted.
i hate to go back to an arms race, but looks like it’s here.
@Adam L Silverman: I disagree on the uselessness of NATO. If it were useless why would the Finns and Swedes be showing interest in joining? Why did Putin move against Ukraine instead of the Baltic states? I get the frustration of the Ukrainians and of those who want to help them, but that doesn’t make NATO useless.
@VeniceRiley: Man we were chauvinistic pricks* back then weren’t we? I had totally forgotten that one.
*We’re only slightly better now. Not as good as we could be, but at least slightly better.
@debbie: i agree with the efforts to boot Russia off the Security Council, but I disagree about kicking them out of the UN entirely. The UN isn’t a club of right-thinking countries, it’s a forum to talk in order to foster cooperation and try to prevent wars. Kicking a country out cuts that off, so it would have to be an effective punishment to make it worth it, and I don’t see how it is.
@Omnes Omnibus: I agree with you. Prior to 1945 the entire recorded history of Europe and Western Europe was one war after another going back to Roman times and before.
Since 1945 and the formation of NATO there hasn’t been one single external conflict within western Europe. Yes we had Northern Ireland, and Yugoslavia. And small scale stuff like the Basques in Spain. But those were largely or entirely internal conflicts and not wars between nations. That is probably the longest run that Europe has been at peace in recorded history.
The purpose or intent of NATO was never to be a worldwide peacekeeping force. It was to enforce mutual defense and peace within NATO countries. And it has been exceedingly effective at that.
@Adam L Silverman: I have higher hopes than that for NATO, now that NATO seems to have come back to life. Even though they do draw the line at NATO countries, it looks to me like they are doing everything they can, right up to the line – even pushing the line – to help Ukraine even though Ukraine is not in NATO.
So I don’t see NATO as toothless or useless or worthless.
I guess we’ll find out more in the months and years ahead.
They could reapply after showing they’d cleaned up their act.
Same. The major unspoken benefit of NATO is that it (by and large) prevents the member nations from warring against ONE ANOTHER. Just think – it’s been over seventy years since Germany has gone to war with the UK, or the UK against France, or France against Germany, etc etc. Seventy years! Can you think of any other period in recorded history when that period of time elapsed with none of the major states of Europe at war with one another? Before the creation of NATO, intra-Europe wars had blown up into global devastation twice within twenty years. If you’d told anyone from the 19th century or earlier that Germany, France, the UK, Spain, etc were allies and had remained allies for two generations, they’d think you were obviously crazy.
@Redshift: Boot them off the Security Council, and no fucking veto for Russia, and I’m fine to leave them in the UN.
Russia is not the USSR and its time the UN says so.
@sukabi: It was in his address to Congress.
@JoyceH: I was somewhat flippant with Cole on Twitter a few days ago. He was talking about the uselessness of the UN and NATO. I pointed out that NATO is not the Justice League. If we want that, we need to create it.
@Adam L Silverman:
NATO includes three declared nuclear powers. That is a terrible constraint, coupled with terrible power. A new alliance that was non-nuclear, but armed with modern mostly-defensive weapons, might be viable. Interesting.
A. Einstein was not wrong with this:
“The release of atomic power has changed everything except our way of thinking … the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker. (1945)”
But he did not anticipate the international dynamics involving interactions among a mix of nuclear and non-nuclear nations.
@Omnes Omnibus: +1
NATO is a defensive organization that protects its members. Ukraine isn’t a member.
NATO is doing a lot for Ukraine, but as long as there’s a distinction between membership (and all that entails) and not, demanding that non-members be treated the same would break the alliance.
A stronger case (but still unfortunately too weak) is that the US, the UK, Russia (and to some extent China and France) should back up their “security assurances” given to Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Ukraine in the Budapest Memorandum in trade for them joining the NPT (and giving up having Soviet nuclear weapons on their soil). (As Cheryl has said, Ukraine never had operational control over those weapons, so the trade was less than it might have appeared though.) Of course, those horses left the barn long ago.
But it illustrates the complexity of the issues and how difficult it is when one of the signatories becomes a bad actor. Ultimately, signed agreements like any law are toothless. What gives them teeth are the people in charge of upholding them…
But along with that is the principle that agreements are not infinitely flexible. They have constraints on what they permit, for good reasons.
Step 1: Destroy Krypton.
@Baud: Can we avoid those annoying WonderTwins?
OMG yes. They were the Wesley Crusher of the Super Friends. They can join Lex Luther for all I care.
Somewhat OT. UK’s BJ in another gaffe.
Boris Compares Brexit to Ukraine war.
This might be something.
@Baud: What about their Space Monkey Zeke? Can he stay?
@Omnes Omnibus: That does look like something!
@Omnes Omnibus: That would indeed be something. And might be a sign that it’s already happening (to some extent).
There is a Balloon Juice in the UK? :-)
(It took me a second but I figured out you meant the other other BJ)
Now I wish Next Generation had a space monkey.
@Omnes Omnibus: Wowser.
@Gremcat: Yeah, what an asshole. I can’t believe he is still in power after Partygate.
Kind of depends what “support” means. Moral support? A 2022 lend-lease? Something else?
@Baud: I am ashamed to say that I looked up the Wonder Twins on Wikipedia, and the Space Monkey was named Gleek, not Zeke:
I regret misremembering, and I regret that my current life is pathetic enough for me to have time to spend looking up things like this.
@Baud: I cannot imagine that it means only moral support. But we will find out.
edit: “but rules out troop deployments” sounds like a lot more than moral support to me.
Via reddit, no representation about authenticity.
Old Dan and Little Ann
The Wonder Twins monkey was Gleek.
The Biden people always get asked about troops by a salivating media.
In other news, AngryBlackLady has “protected” her tweets, so she has to approve before one can see them.
I can guess why. :-( Too many people are monsters.
Hey, this is probably a naive question, because I don’t have any real knowledge of the types of weapons and where they are. But was just seeing on the news that Russia is sending missiles into Ukraine from Russia. But Ukraine still has an Air Force. So – could the Ukrainians fly into Russia and strike those missile sites? Can you imagine the impact that would have on Russia to actually have a counter strike in their own territory?
Tin-eared, ham-handed, and wrong-footed.
@Gremcat: Oh BoJo… ?
Gin & Tonic
Looks like people are taking the law into their own hands.
Gin & Tonic
@Gremcat: That’s not a gaffe. That’s being a complete fucking asshole.
Adam L Silverman
@Omnes Omnibus: The Poles have seen about all they can stomach. I think this is a response to the recent Polish statements about the need to take more aggressive measures against Russia in Ukraine.
@debbie: I read up some more about UN membership, and I stand corrected: Russia is in violation of their obligations as a member of the UN, and there is more of a defined basis than “they’re doing extremely bad things” for expelling them (though it’s never been done.) I’m still not convinced that the effects would be positive on balance.
@JoyceH: Have you checked out the War in Ukraine lexicon? It’s the first item when you click WAR IN UKRAINE in the top menu bar or in the hamburger menu on mobile.
WAR IN UKRAINE
Adam L Silverman
@Baud: They’re getting their own movie.
@JoyceH: Ukraine has apparently already attacked a base in Russia.
Wikipedia – Millerovo air base attack:
That’s all I know.
@VeniceRiley: EPIC indeed!
@eclare: A British jackal said a few days ago that he thought the Tories would keep Johnson until an upcoming round of local elections. It is thought that the Tories will take a beating in them. Then Johnson will be scapegoated and dumped.
@Adam L Silverman:
WELL IT BETTER HAVE A SPACE MONKEY!
Gin & Tonic
@Adam L Silverman: Considering the history between Ukraine (meaning western Ukraine) and Poland I have been very impressed by Poland recently.
Adam L Silverman
@Gin & Tonic: Yep.
I really don’t see how Zelenskyy’s proposal advances anything beyond the kinds of mutual defense agreements that already exist. You’d still be faced with the same stomach-churning calculations about how aggressively to respond to a nuclear-armed despot who recognizes no international law and is quite willing to abrogate any and all promises he’s previously made. The problem, as always, is the existence of nukes and who has them.
Gin & Tonic
@JoyceH: The Ukrainian Air Force isn’t as large. Flying into Russian airspace and being shot down would be a Bad Thing. Shooting rockets into Russia, though…
I don’t disagree with you in theory, but you know Putin is twisting this into permission to keep doing what he’s been doing. Removing his presence and voice will remove his pretense of being a world leader.
The lasting legacy of this conflict may well be the coalition of democracies, which NATO is not defined to be, but is at least a proxy for. See, I don’t think the sanctions going on are exclusively due to Ukraine. I think this is a response yes, to Ukraine, but also Russian election interference in the US, UK, France, and to a host of other Russian actions that the west didn’t have an obvious way to retaliate for, or that the public had the stomach for, so they became diplomatic debt for Russia, a debt which is now getting paid because the opportunity presented itself. So you don’t see a lot of unilateral actions by the US, but actions which NATO approves of, or the G7 approves of, etc.
And NATO serves another really important function – it prevents the EU from having a military coalition that can enforce their economic coalition because the US is part of it. It forces the EU and the US to be on relatively the same page militarily, and at least not having too much animus economically. It also keeps the US from warring with the EU.
I don’t see NATOs problem as being unsolvable. To be clear, NATO always had this problem to some degree. It’s only now that NATO and Russia are finally in sufficient proximity that the problem becomes so apparent.
@Geminid: Gotcha. Thanks!
Gin & Tonic
@Gin & Tonic: Kind of a funny take (as funny as assassinating a collaborationist can be, I guess) on this. The collaborationist “mayor” of Kherson is named Sal’do (Сальдо) – which means “balance,” in the accounting sense. So on the FB page that the Tweet linked to, somebody commented “negative balance.”
Meanwhile, in Virginia…
It’s vitally important to learn the correct lessons about elections…
@Baud: I consider myself blessed because I have no idea who the Wonder Twins are. Two Wesley Crushers would be too much too take.
@Omnes Omnibus: One of the things proving the value of NATO is the fact that Ukraine is getting a shitload of the good stuff over (mostly?) the Polish border and Russia hasn’t done a thing to interrupt that supply chain. Only obvious reason why is doing so risks Article 5 and, presumably, Putin isn’t (yet?) ready to die. He’s got that big beautiful house on the Black Sea to enjoy (I wonder what kind of bomb shelter it has … not that it matters with a direct hit).
@smith: I think it’s a bit of a catch-22. It’s harder for NATO to do some things because they are a NATO power. NATO has the ability to escalate to that level. But a non-nuclear coalition would to some degree have more freedom to act.
It sort of depends on what you’re trying to do. If you need the nuclear veto, then NATO has a greater ability to act. But if you’re trying to avoid the nuclear veto, then NATO has a harder time acting.
You see these dynamics in a lot of places. The 2nd most powerful person in an organization is usually not the Vice President, but the assistant to the President, because they can operate in ways that the Vice President or even the President often cannot. They are comparably limited, but they aren’t universally less powerful. They have ways of being more powerful. A good organization exercises both equally.
Who is the most powerful person on this blog? It’s not Cole. It’s Watergirl.
For those who can use a Sunday distraction from seriousness, I just discovered Sedecordle.
Sixteen wordles simultaneously, twenty-one guesses. Awesome! Getting more letters up is initially more strategic than getting any one correct word.
1️⃣3️⃣⬛1️⃣4️⃣ SHAME – RALPH
1️⃣0️⃣⬛0️⃣6️⃣ SPORT – DECRY
1️⃣2️⃣⬛1️⃣5️⃣ TYING – AWAIT
0️⃣5️⃣⬛0️⃣4️⃣ NASTY – CAULK
0️⃣7️⃣⬛1️⃣6️⃣ NOBLE – DOZEN
1️⃣7️⃣⬛1️⃣8️⃣ STUMP – SHIRE
1️⃣9️⃣⬛0️⃣8️⃣ SHINY – ABORT
0️⃣9️⃣⬛1️⃣1️⃣ VITAL – SIGHT
That’s my fourth 2/6 — one pure luck, three earned.
@Gin & Tonic: His liabilities exceeded his assets.
@Martin: I see your point about the supposedly less powerful actor actually having more freedom to act. My interpretation of Zelenskyy’s proposal was that the mutual aid group would include nuclear powers, most particularly the US. Wasn’t he aiming his remarks to Congress? I may have misinterpreted it, however.
My understanding is Ukraine is getting a lot of the low skilled weapons (e.g. NLAWs) and lesser numbers of higher skilled weapons (e.g. Javelins). Ukraine also had at one point at least one Counter Battery Radar (I believe from the US) that was taken out of action.
Ukraine also received 100 ‘units’ of Switchblades. My understanding is each unit has 10 Switchblades in it.
So it probably is that we are training them as fast as we can for the higher skilled weapons at the same time providing weapons that have an immediate effect but can be deployed with low skilled operators.
My BIL used to work for the company that makes the switchblade drone. He said they have really smart engineers. He is no slouch but he said they were at a whole other level. There is a lot that goes into easy to use for the operator that is not easy to engineer.
@WaterGirl: Wow, the tweet has been taken down. Interesting.
@WaterGirl: Looks like the LTG tweet has been deleted.
True? No idea.
Twitter is horrible for nuance and discussion of complicated topics, example #223,132,889,134.
@Another Scott: Sounds much more likely.
@Another Scott: Well, I am glad I said it might be something.
@Martin: You forgot about Baud. He is the one who wears the pants around here…er, you know what I mean.
I am all for it.
You saw my mail.
There is no turning back now.
@topclimber: That “Baud” guy doesn’t impress me. He puts his pants on one leg at a time.
Or rather, he doesn’t put his pants on, one leg at a time.
Putin is horrible and he has turned post-Soviet Russia into a cesspool of gay hating white nationalists. But while he uses it as an excuse, is there any truth to white nationalism being an issue in Ukraine? Doesn’t make this invasion justified given that’s what Putin – a gay hating, white nationalist – is. But is Ukraine as good as what we perceive Zelensky to be?
Again, Russia is in the wrong here but want to make sure we aren’t propping up the target to be some sort of defender of Western small l liberalism. Yes, bombing innocents is always bad but if the folks leading those innocents are kind of bad we need to temper our enthusiasm when supporting them.
Let me ask another question. Is there any truth to white nationalism being an issue in the US? Also, substitute in any Western nation.
Gin & Tonic
@Ogliberal: I’m going to respond on the assumption you are asking in good faith. The rightist parties/factions in Ukraine are a *much* smaller factor in the political sphere than they are in, e.g. Austria, France, or the US. Yes, there are right-wing nationalists in Ukraine, as there are in every Western European country and the US. In the 2019 parliamentary elections, those parties were shut out. Bageled. O-fer.
Gin & Tonic
@Ogliberal: By the way, what the fuck is this supposed to mean?
Nice two-step you did there, Boris. Fuck off now. Pie for you, ya fuckin’ Nazi piece of shit.
@Chetan Murthy: Nice assumption of good faith there.
@Omnes Omnibus: That last sentence kinda squashes it, don’t it? He goes from
That’s bad faith.
I will assume good faith. I suggest you read this recent article. It talks about the various right wing extremists both inside and outside of Ukraine and there reactions to the invasion. Key point – most of them have been on Putin’s side. It is not unreasonable to believe they have been supported/encouraged in various ways by Russia to promote division.
@Chetan Murthy: Ukraine has a Jewish President, perfect cover for a country run by Nazis…
@Gin & Tonic: As far as I can tell “innocents” references the people of Ukraine who are being bombed and “leading the innocents” references President Zelensky, who is the leader of Ukraine.
I think we have reached that point indeed.
Really accomplished at sowing division, this Vlad and his minions are. Suggest we ignore the troll.
No. What it means is people are being misled by what Putin insists are Neo-Nazis. Don’t defend the statement. It’s not worthy of your defense.
Gin & Tonic
WG has been bugging me for another guest post. If I don’t run out of steam tonight, maybe I’ll put something together about this “Nazi” stuff – where it comes from, why it’s being weaponized.
@Gin & Tonic: Please name check BiP and Victoria Nuland… Just for old times’ sake.
@Omnes Omnibus: Hi Omnes, may I ask if you think there’s more the US can do at this point without spreading the war to many other countries?
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
Your tone of concern is noted. You can kindly fuck the fuck off to whatever Substack hellhole you’ve come from.
Thanks in advance.
@Gin & Tonic: FWIW, I always appreciate learning more from what you share!
I don’t know if it was you who explained about Ukraine’s Eurovision win. That song choice is a testament to some of the great things that have been going on in Ukraine. Which is a real country with its own tensions etc.
@debbie: Who is your comment directed too?
@Gin & Tonic: Bugging you in the nicest possible way, right? :-)
@Lyrebird: I am one of the more cautious people around here on this particular subject. FWIW I think that NATO can continue to provide weapons systems and can provide training on the more complex systems. And, despite the no boots on the ground talk, I am pretty sure NATO has provided and will continue to provide Spec Ops peeps. I am nervous about going beyond that at the moment. Putin could change my mind at any moment by doing something worse.
It is a terrible shame that the United Nations has lost much of its intended purpose to maintain peace. Where is its leadership? There were missteps in the past, see Rwanda and Haiti, but can it do nothing in this world crisis?
Ogiliberal. Sometimes I rush too much. ?
@Baud: Its really not possible in our reality. If the Justice League or Avengers were ever going to have a chance they need a heroic billionaire funder who like spending his billions doing good for the sake of good, and potentially getting no credit for it.
If that was going to happen on our Earth, we’d have seen at least a few test vigilantes by now. Maybe a playboy billionaire who’s into martial arts or working out to insane levels, who happens to live near where crimes are getting solved.
@debbie: Okay, I wanted to be sure it wasn’t me. thanks. I’ll add that in if that’s okay.
@Denali: Do you feel like giving up US sovereignty? Having the rest of the world which outnumbers us decide what our laws should be? Do you think we would ever have had gay civil rights if we had to wait for the whole world to agree? The UN aid pretty powerless because no country wants to give up their own sovereignty. We aren’t really one world yet. I think we are centuries from the UN being able to “do something about a war”. It’s not useless, it’s just not a government, it’s a diplomatic discussion place, that’s ALL.
Yes, thanks for writing back, I appreciate your saying more about your take on the disaster as it is right now.
It’s amazing to have Adam and G & T share from their deep expertise, and also very enlightening to hear from Cole and from other former military folks like yourself, raven, Villago, etc.
The horrors Putin and his army are bringing… if I say I hate agreeing with you about caution, I hope you will understand. I have never enjoyed those “would you kill Santa if it would blah blah blah” mental games. But here we are with history asking, would you let a whole city be put to an agonizing death because it is likely that stopping that will put that many more cities through the same thing? Like Vilnius, Warsaw, etc.
By the time I finish this there will probably be three more threads, but I will post it anyhow. Thanks again.
James E Powell
@Gin & Tonic:
It’s fuck around & find out time for the would-be rulers.
You’re missing the point of drawing a line at NATO. Rule 1 is nuclear armed states don’t shoot at each other. So, you make it very, very clear where you’re willing to start shooting at anyone who comes over the line, and we’ve done just that. And we’ve done that for years.
Changing those lines on the fly is dangerous. It risks misunderstandings where two nations draw overlapping lines.
We’re doing about the maximum we can for Ukraine. A no-fly zone was never going to happen (see rule 1). We’re sending lots of weapons. I can imagine that we might start a relief airlift a la Berlin 1948 if things don’t cool down soon, but that’s probably the farthest we’re willing to go, and even that gets us pretty close to a shooting war with Russia.
Biden’s done a great job threading this needle. He’s deliver stronger sanctions than anyone expected. He’s strengthened NATO. He’s help Germany wake up to the threat from Putin, which I hope ends up being a good thing. He’s aiding Ukraine to a greater degree than most expected, and is already taking sizable risks of escalation by sending arms to Ukraine from a NATO country. Pretty much, we’re doing everything we can short of sending in NATO troops, which would violate rules 1 and 2*.
BTW, did you know that Russia has 4500 nuclear war heads, 1500 ready to deploy?
@Gin & Tonic: Thanks for your response and for clarifying. It helps…a lot. My question was in full good faith, and looking for an infomed response to all the assholes saying Ukraine is just a bunch of Nazis. And all you other reactionary assholes acting like right wing-nuts to my reasonable question can just fuck off. Reflect, folks.
You know, in the last 5-6 years I have asked two what might be considered “provocative” questions – not race, gender, etc – and I’ve been met with hostility. I’m on your side. What the fuck us wrong with you?
@Omnes Omnibus: An issue in every country.
And, fuck, people…I’m looking for shit to support my arguments with the Epoch Times reading folks I may encounter…and I do encounter them. Just, please, fuck off with your troll shit. Second time it has happened to me on this site. You all need to chill and know who is on your side. I love this place and would hate to leave it because y’all are dicks. Stop being dicks.
@Chetan Murthy: Fuck you, also! It’s clear that even on my side there are complete dickheads.
All of you…reflect. Think before you react. I asked a question because I encounter idiots who will pull the Ukraine Nazi card. I want to be clear that I’m sure this is all BS but saying that to the Trumpers I have to encounter doesn’t mean shit without info to negate their BS. Won’t matter but I will have the info. So I ask for that and you all attack me like some bad faith actor. Fuck you. Fuck you. You all feel good about yourself shitting on somebody who is 100 percent on your side? Fuck you. Seriously, fuck you.
@Ogliberal: I am one of the people who did not take your comment in the worst possible way.
As a rule of thumb, I would say the if 10 different people take your comment wrong, maybe take a look at your comment to see if what you wrote was unclear?
Reading your comment again, I can see how someone might have come to the conclusion they did. But I agree with you that assuming ill intent and jumping straight to “troll” isn’t helpful either.
Maybe this can be a learning experience for all of us.
It happens a lot here. The thread where someone commented about using an Oxford comma to clarify one of Adam’s posts got that person jumped on by ten different people.
And the comment wasn’t mean spirited or an ad hominem attack but it still got people pulling out the flame throwers