Republicans are hit-and-miss at picking wedge issues. I’m not sure the CRT demagoguery, book assignment freak-outs and/or anti-mask and anti-vax kookery will resonate beyond the base, which is the mark of a good wedge issue. But Republican politicians think they’ve struck paydirt with anti-transgender posturing, so we’ll see more of that in the coming days.
The wedge issues that work best are those where the social consensus isn’t yet solid, and I think that’s true of trans issues, particularly those related to gender-affirming care for minors, and trans girls or women participating in school sports.
Generally, I think pols should butt out and let parents work with their doctors to make decisions on gender-affirming care for underage kids. I think schools should be able to set rules for sports participation, subject to relevant laws and with the aim of fairness, and allow transgender students to participate. There will be edge cases, but IMO, that shouldn’t drive the entire debate.
My mind is made up, but that said, I don’t think all people who disagree or still have misgivings are transphobic monsters. As a society, we’re evolving on this, just as we evolved on gay marriage a decade ago. The monsters here are the people who don’t give a shit about the kids involved and are demagoguing the issue for political gain. Two current GOP governors provide a case study in how that works.
First up, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, who has a reputation for being as warm and sensitive as a concrete toilet seat in a Siberian outhouse. He’s an angry, imperious prick with a bully’s impulse to target the vulnerable, which is why I’m 80% sure he’ll be the GOP’s 2024 nominee.
DeSantis signed a law banning trans kids from participating in girls’ sports in public school last summer. At that bill signing, DeSantis had to import a Connecticut resident who had complained about trans kids in sports because the administration was apparently unable to find a single case in a Florida public school where anyone objected. Yesterday, he issued a proclamation declaring a UVA swimmer from Florida who lost to a transgender athlete the “rightful winner.”
Contrast that with Governor Spencer Cox, Republican of Utah, who vetoed a bill similar to the one DeSantis signed. Cox sent the bill back to the statehouse with a letter that noted the following:
Finally, there is one more important reason for this veto. I must admit, I am not an expert on transgenderism. I struggle to understand so much of it and the science is conflicting. When in doubt however, I always try to err on the side of kindness, mercy and compassion. I also try to get proximate and I am learning so much from our transgender community. They are great kids who face enormous struggles. Here are the numbers that have most impacted my decision: 75,000, 4, 1, 86 and 56.
● 75,000 high school kids participating in high school sports in Utah.
● 4 transgender kids playing high school sports in Utah.
● 1 transgender student playing girls sports.
● 86% of trans youth reporting suicidality.
● 56% of trans youth having attempted suicideFour kids and only one of them playing girls sports. That’s what all of this is about. Four kids who aren’t dominating or winning trophies or taking scholarships. Four kids who are just trying to find some friends and feel like they are a part of something. Four kids trying to get through each day. Rarely has so much fear and anger been directed at so few. I don’t understand what they are going through or why they feel the way they do. But I want them to live. And all the research shows that even a little acceptance and connection can reduce suicidality significantly. For that reason, as much as any other, I have taken this action in the hope that we can continue to work together and find a better way. If a veto override occurs, I hope we can work to find ways to show these four kids that we love them and they have a place in our state.
I don’t know anything about Governor Cox. He’s a Republican, so I assume he’s a shit about most issues I care about. But that letter was written by a human being who is capable of kindness and compassion. Good for him.
Open thread.
TeezySkeezy
Doesn’t Cox understand that right wing religious nuts aren’t supposed to take Jesus’s message on compassion and understanding so seriously? It’s just supposed to be a cover for their viciousness.
lowtechcyclist
All too rare a trait among Republicans nowadays. I think they’ve mostly come to regard “compassionate conservative” as an oxymoron. (Not that GWB meant anything by the ‘compassionate’ part anyway, but I digress.)
SiubhanDuinne
That’s a wonderful statement from Governor Cox. Like you, I know nothing about him — not sure I’ve ever even heard or seen his name, TBH. And perhaps that’s not an accident, because if he’s in any way a good guy, I can see why the GOP and their media would prefer that the public not know about him.
Old Man Shadow
Yeah, from what I can see, Gov. Cox is not good on most issues.
Still, this is one of those rare cases these days when you sigh in relief and thank the gods that no matter how bad he is, he’s not a monster.
Felanius Kootea
Well, Senator Mike Braun would like to invalidate Clarence Thomas’s marriage (along with Ketanji Brown Jackson’s and Mitch McConnell’s), so you see, both governors belong to the party that has its finger on the pulse of what every American member of the Klan wants.
delk
Indiana’s governor just vetoed a similar bill.
dm
The other day someone here recommended the podcast, “Know your enemy”, by two intelligent folks who go deep on the roots and rots of conservative thinking.
This week’s podcast was with the ACLU’s Gillian Branstetter, on “The anti-trans agenda”.
She mentioned statistics like those in Governor Cox’s letter.
She talked about how there are maybe 2% of the population who are transgender. This means they’re pretty invisible.
Add to that, “no one” pays attention to women’s sports, so that’s pretty invisible.
So the right takes advantage of that invisibility, and wants to cast it as an issue of “fairness” (she mentioned an add showing two girls about to win a trophy when a boy runs up and snatches it away).
It was a great episode. I want to thank whoever recommended the podcast.
Baud
I actually think GOP governors who are not running for president and who live is safe GOP States have more room to be reasonable on occasion. Florida has been a close state and Texas gets more purple every years so you see the GOP in those states become more radicalized.
zzyzx
From what I can tell, a lot of this issue is people who completely exaggerate the differences between men and women – the kind of people who used to write into Bill Simmons and say that their pickup team at the Y could win the WNBA – and think that this is alt right people going, “Ha ha! I’m trans!” to win events.
If you look at the NCAA rules, you need multiple years of hormone replacement therapy to qualify. No one is going to do that in order to win a swimming event. Anyone who would dominate women’s sports is close enough to winning the men’s that they’re going to try better training and the like, long before they’d look for that kind of loophole… unless – of course – they are legitimately trans.
Like I can see the argument for needing to have a definition of what a woman is if we’re separating out the leagues, but ultimately this is obviously a non-issue. It’s not like every event is being won by these women. It’s just a random track event in Alabama and then a one off swim in CT. It’s just not a crucial issue.
But that’s why it’s such a great alt-right issue. You get to both attack transgender people AND mock women’s sports in the guise of defending them.
Dorothy A. Winsor
If anyone is looking for a good YA novel with a transgender central character, I recommend Aidan Thomas’s CEMETERY BOYS.
topclimber
@Felanius Kootea: That is WAY unfair. Braun wants to leave it up to the states to decide. Just like same-sex marriage and womb policing. Because origina-balism.
oatler
Joy Reid really nails GOP in this one. If Chuck Todd tried to read this on-air his goatee would combust.
https://crooksandliars.com/2022/03/joy-reid-rips-republicans-thuggish
Baud
@topclimber:
And gun rights.
Oh wait no not that!
The Moar You Know
I hope so. He will lose.
SFAW
As Shakespeare or someone else said: Christ, what an asshole.
Jager
I have a distant cousin who is transgender, her transition was long, painful, and very difficult. Hasn’t spoken to her father for several years, her sister and mother are supportive. She’s a good kid (23) who loves cats. She told me in one of our conversations, “I knew who I was when I was in grade school, I just didn’t mention it to anyone else until I got out of high school.”
TriassicSands
The issue of transgender female athletic participation is an extremely difficult issue. Some time ago there was a video report (in the Times, I think) about a transgender woman who wanted to compete, but insisted on it being fair. So, she only entered competitions in which she had no chance of making the podium. She was waiting for a determination based on science. to guide her actions.
An article that I read (not by a “phobe”) said that if a person goes through male puberty, and then transitions, she will have an unfair advantage. The physical changes that occur with male puberty affect the size of the heart, muscle mass and other factors that will provide the transgender person with a distinct advantage. If, on the other hand, the person transitions before male puberty, apparently the advantage is lost.
I can’t speak to the truth of those contentions. But they do, if true, raise some serious issues.
Old School
That was brilliant.
Sister Golden Bear
Unfortunately, Utah’s state legislature is expected to override the veto, but maybe the governor’s statement may change some hearts and minds.
For additional context, the Olympics have allowed trans athletes to compete since 2008. It wasn’t until 2021 that the first trans athlete qualified. She was a weightlifter, where in theory any residual extra strength post-estrogen would make a difference (after a year or two on estrogren trans women lose enough muscle mass that theirs is equivalent to cis women). She washed out in the first round. 2021 also saw the first non-binary person (who was assigned female at birth) qualify as part of team sport. But none of the “protect our girls” folks ever talk about AFAB non-binary people or trans boys/men in sports. The NCAA has allowed trans athletes to compete since 2011, and in California, CIF has allowed trans athletes since 2013. So far the only trans championship winner is Lia Thomas, the U of Penn trans swimmer who recently won a in one event in one sport.
In accordance with NCAA/Ivy League rules, she’d been on estrogen for two years, negating any strength differences (estrogen causes loss of muscle mass). As shown by her times before/after transition:
1650 meters
Lia pre-transition: 14:54.765
Lia post-transition: 15:59.71 (lost 65 seconds)
Male record: 14:12.08 (Kieran Smith)
Female record: 15:03:31 (Katie Ledecky)
She was 40 seconds behind the male record, now she is 56 seconds behind the female record
500 meters (the event she won)
Lia’s best pre-transition, 4:18:72
Lia’s current, 4:34:06 (lost 16 seconds)
Female record (Katie Ledecky), 4:24:06
Male record (Kieran Smith), 4:06:32
She was 16 seconds behind the male record, now she is 12 seconds behind the female record
See a pattern here? Not advantage, consistency.
There’s a reason that with all the trans women competing in sports for years, she is one of the only top ranking ones, because she’s always been one of the top ranking — although competing both as a man and as a woman, she was/is elite but still not close to being a world champion.
Finally, I’ll just add the all the GQPers who are concerned about “protecting” females athletes have never given a shit about women’s sports before, and the TERFs haven’t said a peep about WNBA star Brittney Griner, who’s been held by Russia without contact for weeks. No it’s not really about women’s safety, is it?
Alison Rose ???
I loathe transphobes with the fire of a thousand suns.
However, this:
is fucking genius. Betty Cracker, I doff my cap to thee and thine brutal wit.
Josie
@Baud:
You make a good point here. Abbott in Texas was always conservative, but he went completely off the rails when he started thinking about running for president. Anyone entering the GOP presidential primary has to appeal to the most radical members of the party.
Brachiator
What a wonderful expression of empathy and understanding. I applaud the governor for this.
And his well crafted statement also was clear on the facts. If anything, more transgender kids should be encouraged to participate in school sports.
patrick II
What I hate most about Republicans use of the transgender issue is its arbitrary cold-heartedness. Who ever talked about transgenders before 2015? The Supreme Court made gay marriage, the Republicans previous wedge issue champion, a moot issue. So they looked around and said to themselves ” I know, let’s teach our people to hate transgenders, they don’t have the money or power to fight back”. So they did, and they have their cause to build on for their politics of hate and division. The poor transgender kids are being treated like bugs on the windshield of the Republican political hate vehicle. What terrible people. Poor kids.
trollhattan
Good for Governor Cox. It appears compassion has not been banished from every Republican state house. And I love the succinct rationale he presents. Just needs an “Any questions?”
He’ll probably be recalled.
SFAW
@The Moar You Know:
Yeah, just the way Rick Scott lost after having a 30-percent approval the year before, and just the way Hillary won in a landslide.
He may lose, but betting against the Party of Traitors, especially in Florida, is a mug’s game.
Just One More Canuck
@SFAW: I think it was Jesus who said, “Me, what an asshole”
TriassicSands
@SFAW:
To the Right, it’s not how bad the Republican candidate is, but that every Democratic candidate is unacceptable. They would vote for Hitler over AOC.
trollhattan
Used to be skeptical of any value in HS sports (see Texas football and fake basketball and football high schools for why) but learned how important they can be for giving academically and socially stressed out kids not only an outlet and diversion from those, but a different avenue to achieving success and peer acceptance. Think my kid would have imploded had she not had that outlet, and that continues in college.
Let them play.
SFAW
@Sister Golden Bear:
Wait, are you saying Katie Ledecky is trans? [Sorry, couldn’t resist.]
On a more serious note: Thanks! for that excellent analysis. It’s unfortunate that the Party of Traitors and Stupid would completely ignore facts and reality.
Baud
@TriassicSands:
More precise.
TriassicSands
@The Moar You Know:
Anyone who thinks DiSantis will lose has a lot more confidence in the American people than I do. I hope you are right.
trollhattan
While the Webb scope rightly gets the attention, spacecraft Juno continues to amaze while orbiting Jupiter. Here’s a shot of the planet plus Io and Europa.
Baud
@Sister Golden Bear:
That’s good info. I’ve seen a lot of misinfo out there about her.
Sister Golden Bear
@zzyzx:
I’d add that in addition estrogen causing muscle mass loss (after a year, your strength is equivalent to a cisgender woman — hormone replacement therapy for women also causes permanent difficulties getting/maintaining an erection and “shrinkage.”
So no, a male athlete just isn’t going to that simply to win a swimming championship, especially since estrogen reduces your performance (see my post about Lia Thomas’ time above).
trollhattan
@TriassicSands: Trump taught us that there is no behavior that will preclude a Republican from getting votes.
TriassicSands
@trollhattan:
Thus, my lack of confidence in the American people.
Again, it is not whether the Republican candidate is good or bad. It’s that all Democrats are unacceptable
Sister Golden Bear
@TriassicSands:
That’s simply not true. Science — and the record of trans athletes’ performances — says otherwise.
@patrick II: FYI, a gentle heads-up the preferred term is “trans people” rather than “transgenders” (it’s similar to that “Ukraine vs. the Ukraine”thing). In part to remind cis gender people that trans people are people, since unfortunately too many people (not you) need reminding.
TriassicSands
@Sister Golden Bear:
As I said, I can’t speak to the truth of the assertions, but they were purportedly based on science. The author presented information, but did not take a position.
Alison Rose ???
@patrick II: Not meaning to cast aspersions on you, but “transgender” should not be used as a noun. You would say “transgender (or just trans) people”, not “transgenders”
SFAW
@Baud:
Perhaps even more precise (or accurate?)
Lyrebird
Amen.
Just like Betty C said,
a human being said that, and one who actually gives a darn about kids.
Sister Golden Bear
@SFAW:
I know you’re joking, but there was an article that used a photo of Katie Ledecky and the comments were full of “she looks like a man” comments from haters who assumed the photo was of Lia Thomas. Not saying it’s telling, but yeah, it’s telling.
Brachiator
@TriassicSands:
I don’t think this is entirely accurate. I don’t think this is substantiated by the evidence or the current protocols that attempt to deal with performance issues in the NCAA and other organizations.
But I don’t claim any particular expertise here. Also, I think that some current athletes transitioned after puberty and do not dominate their sports or have any clear advantage.
UncleEbeneezer
My fave podcaster often says that “Black people will only know true equality when White People are willing to step off the podium.” The same thing applies here. Way too many people are falling into a panic of having one cisgender person not get a trophy or scholarship etc., as if that’s the end of the world. It isn’t. The vast majority of athletes don’t win, let alone get scholarships, or go pro. The whole point is for the fun, physical fitness, development, relations/community and all the other things that make organized sports great. Leagues and sports organizations already have policies for the challenge of Trans/Non-Binary athletes at elite levels and I think they are already doing a pretty good job based on the science and experts on physical development etc.
But really, if including more Trans athletes means that a couple Cisgender athletes may not make the podium, I am fine with that. Cisgender people receive metric fucktons of privilege that Transgender people never have and never will. Trans athletes have been competing internationally and at the Olympics for a while now, and they still don’t dominate in any significant way. Once that happens then maybe we can talk about modifying things, but that’s simply not the case. The fact that most of us (even those of us who follow sports pretty closely) can only name a handful of Transgender athletes who have been successful at elite or even high school levels, and the fact that it wasn’t until 2022 that a Transgender athlete (Lia Thomas) was able to win an NCAA Championship IN ANY SPORT, shows that there really isn’t much cause for alarm, imo. It’s just not a big problem.
Hopefully some of the Transgender members of the BJ commentariat will chime in (if they want to) because I’d love to hear their thoughts
[Added: looks like some commenters have already chimed in while I was typing :) ]
Felanius Kootea
@topclimber: You know, why even have a constitution? Let’s just leave it up to the good people of the red states of America to decide what our rights are. I mean, they’ll only take us back to 1788.
Cameron
Who does this Cox character think he is? George Romney?
SFAW
On an even more fun note: TPM is noting that apparently Cucker Tarlton is saying something like “if Judge Jackson were to be a diversity pick, she should think and act/talk more like a street rapper.”
I’m paraphrasing, but still …
burnspbesq
I have some normally sensible friends who lost their shit over Lia Thomas … but I get it, because they have daughters who swim.
Let’s just agree on eligibility criteria that make some scientific sense, and when somebody satisfies them, shut up and let them compete.
Sister Golden Bear
@TriassicSands:
There are a number of purportedly “neutral” writers — Jesse Singal, cough, cough — who misrepresent the science. Just saying.
Again the proof is in the athletes’ performances.
And trust me trans activists usually know hella more about the effects of hormone replacement therapies due to the gatekeeping we have to get through to — e.g. I had to sign a lengthy informed consent form that went into detail about the effects — as well as the personal effects on our bodies.
Not saying this is you, but when it comes to trans issues cisgender voices are usually privileged (whether they actually know what they’re talking about) and trans people’s voices are dismissed.
narya
Charlie Pierce had a piece up a couple of weeks ago–a guest post from a doc in Arkansas (I think?) who told the story of how he asks kids–after asking their parents to leave the room–how they identify. Most kids roll their eyes and say they’re the sex they were assigned at birth, but a very few do not. He spoke of their fear saying that out loud to an adult, to another person. And he spoke of a father using his daughter’s preferred pronouns for the first time, then sobbing in the doc’s arms in the doc’s office afterward. It was extremely moving, and made it clear, from another perspective, how this is a matter of life and death for kids who aren’t cisgender, particularly if their family isn’t supportive. I’m glad to see the governor of Utah demonstrating grace and humanity.
West of the Rockies
This is a good and edifying post. I bet all of can think of a Republican we liked and admired: grandmother, brother, coworker, etc.
Last night there was a to do about treating Russian soldiers with humanity. Should we not attempt to do the same with our fellow citizens?
Of course, this does not mean Ukranians only launch flower bombs at invading Russian soldiers. Nor does it mean ignoring and not punishing homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, racism, anti-science foolishness, etc.
That said, I will shed no tears at whatever deserved fate befalls Trump, DeSantis, Abbott, Blackburn, McConnell, Cruz, Thomas, Coney Barrett, Tucker, Candace, Hannity, D’Souza, etc.
Humanity does not preclude justice.
waspuppet
Don’t forget dumb as a rock. 90%.
RaflW
The US Supreme Court is a godforsaken absolute disaster. Completely radicalized. And I despair our press finding their courage to admit this in print, though at least this report dares say “sides with Republicans” which is true and suggests some level of the naked partisanship. I expect watering down of the headlines as the pearl-clutching editors swing into action.
guachi
I’ve seen some scientific studies showing performance differences between trans and non-trans female athletes.
Hormone therapy reduces much of the gap, but not all. The largest residual differences are in neuromuscular strength (think weight lifting) and the lowest in endurance ability.
For highschool athletes the residual differences are likely to be far lower then if the transition occurs later in life.
As the Governor of Utah points out it’s only a small number of people participating in highschool sports and if it is ever an issue it can be dealt with at that time.
However, I’m not convinced transgender athletes should be allowed at the highest level of competition such as professionally or at the Olympics.
Peale
@SFAW: We’re back to “I’m so surprised black people use forks. But are black people who use forks authentic?” They really are trying to get her to lose it and “sass back” so they can claim that she’s Marla Gibbs and only qualified to be the maid.
Capri
@Sister Golden Bear:
I have read that there is a wish to keep Britney Griner’s imprisonment out of the news while NBA/WNBA and others work quietly behind the scenes on her behalf. They don’t want to give the world a distraction from what Russia is doing nor give the Russian authorities more reason to hold her.
Not that right wing media would give a hoot, but it might be why there isn’t more being made of it by the sporting press.
UncleEbeneezer
@narya: I met a mother who told us about how her Transgender daughter started having suicidal ideations at eight years old. Her daughter realized she was Transgender (but couldn’t put it into words) at around 5 years old. Now she is a healthy, happy 12 year old girl (at least she was in 2018 when we met her mom) who is already very outspoken in school on LGBTQ rights issues. Her Mom couldn’t even put into words the change for the better that she saw in her child’s life by being able to live her truth and being loved and supported by her family.
Facilitating and empowering stories like that, imo, are what we should be striving for.
Frankensteinbeck
I don’t think liberals understand how furious Republicans, as individuals and a culture, are over trans women gaining acceptance. (They have trouble grasping trans men exist.) This is ‘a black man became president’ level stuff. ‘Men in dresses’ was a universally accepted joke 10 years ago. An absolutely standard punchline. Conservatives have lost the ability to abuse a minority that they believed would always be a free punching bag. And not just any group of victims. Acceptance of trans women strikes at the foundation of toxic masculinity. They are pissed. They want this genie back in the bottle.
GoBlueInOak
@RaflW: This is why I am praying Thomas never leaves that hospital vertical.
Do I feel bad about that? Not one bit.
Betty Cracker
@guachi: See SGB’s comment at #19.
Jacqueline Squid Onassis
As a former white cis trans ally dude who transitioned in her 50s, I can’t begin to explain how much more impact there is on me from the anti-trans legislation put forth by the GOP for political gain.
As a trans ally when the anti-trans using public legislation was being pushed, I was outraged. Now that I’m trans, these attacks on trans kids hit me in a much more visceral way. I realize, in a way I didn’t as an ally, that these people are trying to kill me and others like me. I can only hope this fails as a strategy as fast as anti-SSM bigotry did. I’m worried it won’t because there are so many fewer trans people than gay people.
ArchTeryx
@Sister Golden Bear: The TERFs are nothing more than alt-right (literal, in many cases) Nazis pulling one over on the left by pretending to be concerned lefties. I’m still gobsmacked that no less a personage than Joanne K. Rowling fell for it, but the rich have ALWAYS been different from you and me. No matter where they came from.
Cacti
The older I get, the less I am in favor of the weird “separate but equal” world of athletics.
If we believe in equality of the sexes, then may the best person win.
narya
@UncleEbeneezer: Exactly. Chris Hayes also did an interview on his “Why Is This Happening” podcast with a doc who provides care to trans kids, and it was extremely interesting and enlightening. So many kids know SO early that they don’t fit the categories they’ve been given. My personal wish is that we get rid of the categories and let folks express themselves however they want, but that is an uphill battle, and I really do not want to distract from the basic goal of supporting folks of all identities and expressions.
Alison Rose ???
@guachi:
This is discrimination. You would be okay with that?
Omnes Omnibus
This song comes to mind
trollhattan
@guachi:
I haven’t been privy to much of the technical discussion and will guess that some sports will accommodate fluidity in eligibility better than others. De facto, I’ll guess, it will be easier for someone identifying as male to compete in male sports than vice versa, simply because it it’s harder to frame as giving “unfair advantage.” NCAA is wrestling with it and is not the most transparent organization, nor is it flexible.
Alison Rose ???
@Omnes Omnibus: Oh damn, haven’t heard that one in forever. Fucking classic bop.
patrick II
@Sister Golden Bear:
Thank you.
patrick II
@Alison Rose ???:
Thanks. Lesson learned.
Martin
Yep. They want all the genies back in the bottle. I’m still convinced this won’t end without violence. I hope I’m wrong, but I see states passing conceal carry without permit laws in lockstep with this stuff. Make no mistake that a culture war is still a war.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@TeezySkeezy: Utah, so it’s Mormons, they are talking about their own kids, not someone else’s like with the Florida GOP and conservative retirees.
Mel
@ArchTeryx: Glad to see you! How are you doing?
The Rowling thing is so awful. The fact that her platform and the source of her fame made the community that her books created feel, before, like such a safe place for so many kids (and so many who are now adults) who didn’t fit into society’s very narrow mold, makes it somehow even worse than the usual vile bigotry.
Former teacher and counselor here, and I have heard so many former students who felt seen and valued and represented when they read the Potter books and found kinship with other readers say that it felt like coming home to find the door locked and the locks changed (which, horrifically some of them had experienced at their actual homes as young adults).
One more painful blow in the constant battle they have to fight every day just to be who they are.
Citizen Alan
@GoBlueInOak: me too. I don’t care who knows it.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@RaflW:
Jennifer Rubin wrote some good words about the radical direction the court has taken in WaPo today.
jackmac
RE DESANTIS: I’m looking forward to the day when he appears with some group, says something insensitive or ignorant and a thinking adult from said gathering loudly tells him to “Fuck Off” and punches him out in front of the cameras.
Cacti
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: The 5 far right members of SCOTUS are attempting to re-litigate 1865 to the present.
Sister Golden Bear
@Alison Rose ???:
It’s worth noting that the current Olympic guidelines for allowing trans women to compete, which are based on testosterone levels, have been used to disqualify BIPOC cisgender women rather than any trans women athletes (at least that I’m aware of). A couple expected medal-winners were disqualified from the Tokyo Olympics — so who actually is preventing cisgender women from participating in sports?
Citizen Alan
@ArchTeryx: There’s a school of thought, not sure if I buy it or not, that says that rowling was displaying displaying transphobia in the Harry Potter series itself through Rita Skeeter. Goblet of fire apparently described her with masculine terms, and her 1st big scene involved her physically dragging a 14 year old boy into a closet to take advantage of him.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
I think Putin’s antics are changing that calculation – it’s Cold War 2 and Putin’s defined his side as know nothing, vicious, paranoid, god botherers.
Sister Golden Bear
@trollhattan:
None of the people trying to ban trans girls/women from sports give a shit about trans boys/men competing in men’s sports. Because misogyny.
In fact the case of a Texas wrestler they love to cite was actually a trans boy who was forced by the state’s athletic authority to compete in the girls division. Which he hated, but didn’t want to give up wrestling because he was trying to get a college wrestling scholarship. (Which he did, at a no-name college — not sure which NCAA tier, but it was definitely one of the lowest one — where he’s had an undistinguished career.)
Matt McIrvin
@TriassicSands: Suppose there were some kind of issue here (apparently there is not). Now we’re talking about a sufficiently marginal case that nobody is going to transition just to win at sports, so what is the problem? It’s like worrying that bigger people are getting an unfair advantage by being born big. In fact it is more or less exactly that. We don’t police this except in sports that already have weight divisions, where gender ought to be moot anyway.
I think one of the things that drives this is stories about nationalism-derived mass cheating at the Olympics, that maybe some nefarious country is going to force athletes to transition so they can dominate at women’s sports. But (1) there are so many obviously easier ways to do this and (2) it’s obviously no reason to justify barring some high-school kid from playing sports.
Ruckus
@SFAW:
It’s unfortunate that the Party of Traitors and Stupid would completely ignore facts and reality.
If they didn’t do that they would have no platform whatsofuckingever.
Not that they have one now.
Nor would they be the Party of Traitors and Stupid.
Fake Irishman
@Sister Golden Bear:
really appreciate all the info here. I want to particularly highlight your point about Thomas being one of the best male swimmers when she competed as a man and is now one of the best female swimmers when she is competing as a woman after the required transition time period. This isn’t like a dude is suddenly jumped in the women’s event to win. (A la Steven Miller)
ian
@guachi:
I’m not convinced we should have professional sports or Olympics.
James E Powell
@SFAW:
And it’s not really the DeSantis or the Party of Traitors, you’d be betting against, it’s the Nation of Ignorant Bigots.
Matt McIrvin
@Cacti:
There genuinely are sports where size and strength are big advantages and cismen post better stats. But if we’re worried about that, the obvious approach is to have size or weight classes.
catclub
and then there is gymnastics
Martin
@guachi: So, I’m not interested in shaming you, let’s get that out of the way up front in case this comes across wrong.
We need to take a few steps back and look at what we are protecting here.
To start, understand that sports are unfair. It’s baked in. Look at the US’s most accomplished female gymnast, Simone Biles. Virtually no female in the US has any reasonably ability to beat her. Why? Because as a fully adult woman, she’s 4′ 8″. She can spin with half the energy of someone of median height, and yet she has all the strength potential of someone of median height. Biles is the only gymnast so far that can do the Yurchenko double pike. That’s 100% a function of her height. She won the genetics lottery for gymnastics. She lost it for basketball. Ask yourself, would the best mens gymnast be a competitive female gymnast if he transitioned? No. There isn’t a combination of hormones and whatnot that would make up for the fact that she is now entirely too tall and had won entirely the wrong genetic lottery to be a competitive female gymnast.
So, is it unfair to a 5’9″ woman that she’s both uncompetitive for gymnastics and uncompetitive for basketball? Yeah. But sports is unfair. So, nobody has a right to be the best at a sport. There is no universe in which I can train hard enough to beat Lebron James at basketball who is a foot taller than me. So if the goal is ‘fairness’, that goal was failed ages ago.
Next, this is a sport. The consequences of losing in a sport is, well, nothing. We shake the hands of the non-winners, sometimes hand them medals or trophies or prize money as well, and congratulate them on a good effort. We don’t kill them. We don’t throw them in prison. There is no punishment for not winning. There is at most a lesser reward. But exclusion from participating is a punishment. It’s what Title IX was explicitly written to do. It doesn’t require that women be able to play on the mens team, but it does require that comparable activities be offered to women. It removes the punishment. But it doesn’t mandate that women win, or what women win. It expands opportunity and makes sure resources are spread more fairly.
So where does that leave transgender athletes? Well, these laws are designed to exclude, so right off the top they violate Title IX. And title IX doesn’t just apply to gender, it also applies to ability. Para-ambulatory students are also protected by Title IX and so we have this hodge-podge of compliance around the country, usually poorly done, but with some bright spots. And we have the Paralympics with entirely different rules, classifications, and so on.
So, I see two possibilities here:
Cacti
Yep.
Omnes Omnibus
@Martin: Events like the 100m dash will never be eliminated. They are too elemental.
Nicole
@Martin:
This, this, a thousand times this. I don’t understand why this is even an issue, other than offering a way for horrible people to be horrible to children. I am a big believer in a growth mindset and putting work in to get good at doing something, but where athletics are concerned, some people are just born better at it. More fast-twitch muscle fibers, better eye-hand coordination, super flexible joints, whatever. I cannot fathom the very, very small number of trans people who can compete athletically at a high level will ever have any sort of effect on sports as a whole. The ones that succeed will succeed because they are athletically gifted far above us average types, not because they went through puberty before transitioning.
I mean, Secretariat had a heart almost 4 times the size of an average Thoroughbred’s and no one complains today about the unfair advantage it gave him in the mile-and-a-half Belmont.
Also, note to self: start watching curling.
catclub
You mean the 100 yd dash?
catclub
If you ever heard someone describe going to the curling rink, because lots of drinking is involved.
Captain C
@SFAW:
And maybe even more now…
JML
@Martin: I appreciate you bringing up Title IX as part of this conversation. Title IX is a great law in so many ways and has been incredible important in bringing equity in this country.
It’s also got some flaws and holes, particularly as it applies (or doesn’t) to trans athletes but also in how it applies to collegiate sports, etc. And it gets even messier when it’s being enforced by federal judges who literally know nothing about sports?
As our societal understanding of gender becomes deeper and more broadly accepting (I hope), we will need to grapple with how this impacts some of these things that we thought were fairly simple…but maybe really aren’t. I appreciate Governor Cox’s response. Nice to see he might have a soul.
I will say, it’s always frustrating to see people whose normal response to anything related to sports is something along the lines of “lol, sportsball” in a sneering sort of fashion suddenly appearing and demanding to tell everyone how sports should be run…
burnspbesq
@Fake Irishman:
That’s not quite accurate. Lia was a solid male swimmer (second in the 500 free at the 2019 Ivy League championship, but didn’t qualify for the NCAAs). Now she’s an NCAA women’s champion in the 500.
But here’s the interesting thing. She’s noticeably bigger than nearly all of the other competitors. I’m far from an expert in swimming, but I would expect the advantage of size to manifest itself more strongly in shorter races. But she won the 500, finished fifth in the 200, and finished eighth in the 100. Go figure.
J R in WV
I’m a strong supporter of all the kids, especially kids who struggle to find their own way, to make friends, and trans kids and people in general.
My dad was a Rockefeller Republican, also a card carrying member of the local NAACP, with gay friends back in the 50s and 60s. In lots of ways still a role model for me, even tho I’m a card carrying member of the ACLU, and the SPLC and would never vote for a Republican no matter what.
Thanks for all the information in this thread.
Also, brought my Wife home today, so hurray!
UncleEbeneezer
One other thing I want to add is that I can’t help notice the similarities between the arguments being made to justify exclusion of Transgender people in sports and those that were made to justify the exclusion of Black people from sports . The inherent sense of entitlement (how dare one of those girls take away a spot from one of our girls…) and assumed physical superiority (fast-twitch muscles of Black people, T-levels of Transgender women). The parallels are telling.
katdip
@TriassicSands: See this great article in the Guardian, outlining how the Republican party now sees any Dems as illegitimate, even if fairly elected. Scary, but fits with the recent evidence
Matt
I’m sure trans folks are just pleased as punch that you’ve decided to accept their existence, and even more delighted that you’re not willing to actually stand behind that.
This isn’t a matter of “society changing”: these people have ALWAYS existed, just at varying degrees of marginalization. Deciding that it’s OK for some bigoted assclowns to be bigots because “they just aren’t ready yet, bless their hearts” is pathetic. Precisely how long should we wait for them to grow up?
And that’s not even GETTING INTO the whole “rootless cosmopolitans turning our CHILDREN trans!!!!” fascist conspiracy crap that’s powering the whole moral panic.
Omnes Omnibus
@catclub: It wasn’t really eliminated; it was changed. And you know exactly what I was saying.
Dan B
@Martin: Very well put, thanks!
I’ve known almost a dozen trans people. One was a bit grouchy. The rest were wonderful people. I believe that living and realizing a truth that violates society’s norms builds character. People who have little moral character want to push down on everyone who makes them feel inferior. It’s tragic.
debbie
@Josie:
I would never want you to, but watching the GOP Ohio Senatorial debate last week would have confirmed this. It was like a sandbox full of Eric Cartmans.
Dan B
@J R in WV: Hooray! Glad your wife is home.
Sister Golden Bear
Definitely relevant is the fact that:
Excellent thread about this goes back (at least) to the first years of the 20th century, starting with figure skating, and then soccer, and most recently Olympic skeet shooting. Where successful women athletes get banned from open competitions, and then gender-segregated categories are created.
in ultra-marathon racing, surfing, and air rifle shooting.
Kent
I have a very large extended family, many of whom are conservative Christians. In my case they are mostly Mennonites which is a fundamentalist-leaning denomination but not evangelical. Fundamentalism and evangelicalism are two different things. You can be one or the other or both or neither.
In any event, I have been absolutely taken back in recent years by the ABOLUTE fury and hatred expressed by my fundie relatives on this specific issue. It is just breathtaking how much virulent hatred there is about LGBT-anything in the fundamentalist community. I’m really kind of at a loss as to where it is all coming from because there was really none of it when I was young. I mean gays would have been disapproved of, but it wasn’t the obsession it is today.
I honestly don’t understand the psychology of so much hate. Best I can figure is that they have lost so many other culture war battles from blue laws to racism and they are clinging desperately to this one last form of bigotry that is still acceptable, at least in their circles. But it truly stuns me how much bigotry and hate is out there. Especially given how little the Bible actually touches on LGBT topics, which is barely at all compared to things like wealth and poverty or love.
Kent
I was a collegiate sailor all through college. One of the things I liked about sailing was that it was completely co-ed, at least at the collegiate level. It is still sex-segregated at the Olympics. But at the collegiate level you have boy-boy, boy-girl, and girl-girl teams all racing against each other equally. And often the girls would absolutely destroy us. I raced at Reed College in Portland which was in a sailing league of about 10 schools in OR, WA, and BC. We were just average recreational sailors but up at the UW there were some Olympic class sailors attending UW. One of the teams there was two sisters who competed internationally and in the Olympics and they were so much better than us they could literally sail circles around us if they wanted to. Same exact boats. In collegiate sailing you just rotate boats round by round so all sail the same exact boats and it is all skill. They had it and we didn’t
They would also crush the cadets from the Royal Rhodes Naval Academy in Victoria which at the time as Canada’s version of their Naval Academy. So they had some hot-stuff Canadian sailors and future naval officers who would also get crushed by the girls. Lots of fun to see those macho athlete guys get whipped too.
C Stars
As the parent of a trans kid, it’s reassuring to read so many BJers who are not buying into the transphobia (this, in my experience, is not universally true among liberals/Democrats–it’s still shaky ground, as Betty Cracker pointed out at the top). From my perspective, at the level of elementary school and middle school sports, it just seems silly, not only because there are vanishingly few trans kids competing, but also because there are immense physical and hormonal differences between ALL kids at that age. My god, I go to pick up my 6th grader and see kids in their class who are closer in size to my 8 year old, walking alongside those who are nearing 6′ in height. And gender isn’t even the defining factor here! There are a lot of middle school cis girls on the bigger side and middle school boys who haven’t yet hit any kind of significant growth spurt. You can’t really logically regulate something with such innate variation.
In high school I suppose there may be some more categorizable gender differences, but IF a trans kid is medically transitioning (i.e. taking hormones) then at that point any advantage will be mitigated significantly.
In any case, as so many here have pointed out, even in the college-level and professional sports there clearly isn’t some pernicious phenomena of trans athletes dominating a given sport or team…it doesn’t exist! There are a handful of trans athletes and they get written up in the newspaper all the time.